I just wanted to give everyone an update.

Life is just fine. M and I will be leaving for Egypt soon, and in general, I think our relationship is good. Right now, we seem to be on a plateau, but it’s such a nice plateau, I’m not ready to get off it yet. All conversations about the future have ceased for the time being. I think he may not feel comfortable discussing it since I won’t live together without the benefit of marriage. He may be ready to live together but scared of marriage.

Meanwhile, I figured something out. All the times when I panic about our relationship seem to fall between the 5th and 9th of the month. Consistently. And anyone want to take a guess what else falls right around that time? Anyone? So, I betting this feeling of anxiety and impending doom has NOTHING to do with M, and everything to do with my hormones. So, my new plan is to not talk about anything from the 4th through the 10th of every month. I may even avoid seeing him during that timeframe.

So, the long and the short is things are very nice.

Sounds great Green!

I always try to stop and think about whether my "issues" are related to something else thats on my mind.

When I am very stressed I tend to expect more from BF.
Its like I seek more comfort during those times and look for more from him. If I'm not getting it -- then I elevate issues about other things.

So, I had to learn to express my need for extra attention instead of that nasty old pattern I discovered.

I'm in a very nice place too. Feels good!
Happy for you -- Egypt sounds wonderful!

Could there be a hormone-related reason for the consistency of the problems?

Enjoy your trip, and I'm glad it is not during your period of emotions.

Great news!, GG! Enjoy! Have fun & If you're going to the pyramids don't let the armed guards intimidate you.

Yes, Cinders, that's what I was trying to get at. I must recently have developed a serious case of PMS. It's terrible. I thought cramps and fatigue were bad, but the doom that seems to settle on me is worse.

And yes, Newly, I'm glad I won't be going during that time of the month!

Well, Not such good news. The whole ILY issue has remained. I’m sure now that while I can go without personal compliments in a relationship, I wouldn’t be happy in one where my SO never verbally expressed his feelings for me. I really want to hear those words.

M’s stand is actions should count for something, and they do. But, I’m too insecure to have faith that all the ways he’s nice to me mean that he’s in love with me. I find myself sad sometimes that he doesn’t feel like I do.

At the end of last night’s conversation, M said basically he wasn’t the type to talk about his feelings and that wasn’t going to change. So, while he’s by far the nicest man I’ve dated in 20 years, this won’t work for me long term.

Now, what do I do?

Oh my GG - see my "I'm whining" post - I am in exactly the same boat you are in with regard to the verbal ILY. Maybe your M and my T are long-lost brothers?

I haven't decided as of yet if I can accept the non-verbal expressions of love long-term, but if it makes you feel any better, you are not alone....

ditto....

will you gals kindly figure it all out and let me know how to work this out? I'm tired....

ok Truly I caught up on your thread too.
We're all in the same boat.

I've been in a funk for the last few weeks. It all started on the night of a friends birthday party. We got home (yada yada yada) and I said ILU.

** little background: about 95% of the time when I say ILU, he will respond with a rotation of:
1. are you crazy?
2. have you been drinking?
3. are you on medication?
4. similar variations on these themes.
A very rare 5% of the time he will fumble with some form of
1. back at ya....
2. ditto....
3. me too...
4. the very very rare ILU2

So back to the story.
I say ILU.
I get one of the goofy versions.
I push the issue, can't you say it ONCE in a while?
He responds with: I don't even say it to my OWN FAMILY.

OUCH, so basically I don't take that very well. He's not particularily close to his family, and pretty critical of most of them. So I really feel put in my place...

Then he goes off on a little spaz about how I'm ALWAYS getting on his case about it and nagging at him to say it EVERYDAY. (this one I could blow off, cuz I know how absolutely ridiculous that is. I say it to him maybe twice a month, and put up with his nonsense replies all the time.)

Sooooo...went to sleep. Didn't talk about it.

But its been flavoring my feelings for the last two weeks. I just feel flat.

I don't know how I feel about all of this anymore.

Yes, it seems there are a bunch of us. You know what's odd, I don't remember any men saying their GF refuses to say those words. I'm sure they're out there, but can't be many.

Yes, I've felt sort of at odds. I know now I really won't be happy in a permenant relationship when the other person just can't say it. I don't need it often, but I need it. Apparently, language must be one of my love languages.

It seems to me the ethical thing is to break up with him. I don't want him to just assume I've gotten over my little issue, and then have it be major heartache all round.

On the other hand, M will see my actions as impatient. I don't

Hmmm....Can I join the club too? This has been gnawing at me as well. I haven't posted anything on this subject, figure I would just give it some time, but I'm at the point now that I'm starting to feel a slight resentment toward M.

Quick background:
-We've been together 2 1/2 years.
-I've said ILY maybe 5 times....he has never utter an ILY...although he does give me the same goofy comment like Lexxy's BF
-I ususally get "you're crazy"....or sometimes he just shakes his head and hugs me....
-He is close to his family and says ILY to them ....he even says it to his XWW's Aunt, who has always been very supportive of him through his divorce
-I once joked with him about something and said "I thoght you love me"....he said "I do!" that's it

I have to be honest, I haven't discuss any of this with M.

On one hand I want him to say it on his own without any pressure from me, it would mean more to me. On the other hand, I'm starting to wonder if he loves me because of I'm a nuturing mother, I treat him well, how his family loves me and I do get along with his family....but he's not "in love with me". I guess I'm afraid to find out.

Well, good to know that I'm not alone - and we are NOT crazy!

I have told T that I love him maybe a dozen times in almost two years - and I have yet to get ONE unsolicited ILY back! As a matter of fact, I'm guessing that the first three or four times I said it to him - I got nothing back - not even an acknowledgement from him! And, I know he can do it - he ALWAYS says it to his kids when he talks to them on the phone, so I know he can form the words.....and say them......when we talk on the phone - I get the "talk to you later"........and quite frankly, it's starting to bug me. We went on vacation recently, and after a few cocktails I looked him in the eye and asked him point blank (this is after I said it to him again) if he loved me or not.....I got the "yeah I do"......not very satisfying...

Yes, I wonder if maybe I'm the person he kills time with and has sex with until he finds the one that he wants to marry.....should I just ask him? I suppose.

OK divorced and dating guys - I'd love to hear your comments on the ILY thing - do you give it freely?

YES! I wonder that too. Sure, maybe he loves me, but am I Special? Am I one of The Ones? I think not at this point. My M has planned three trips for the rest of the year, and I wasn't involved in the discussion much. I did say that since my contract ends in December I can't go away in October or Novemeber. I need to make monrey and find a job.

M did say it felt strange to have arranged a trip for just himself. But, now he's already talking about his next trip after these three. No input from me. He's going to Athens or to Bejing. My point: He's not really involving me in his future. If I'm there, I'm along for the ride.

Then, he forgot my birthday party. My mother threw me a small family party for my big 40th. My best friend came too. M remembered my birthday day, sent me an Amazon card, but totally forgot the party two days later. I was so hurt. He did show up after I had called him, but still.

And then, there's the fact that he won't let me bring my dog to his house. This is fine but it means I can't spend the night. Then he complains I never spend the night.

I've made the first move to tidying up my end of the relationship. I've gotten the satallite tv out of his name. He had it enstalled as apart of my Christmas present. He waas going to pay for the first year, but I refuse to let that happen now. That was when I thought we were heading toward marriage.

This stinks.

And, oh yes, I'm not PMSing either.

Looks like we got a club going on here! GG - I understand your hurt for your birthday - I remember being incredibly hurt and upset (and I posted about this at the time) when I had to have my dog put down and I felt T was very, very insensitive. Of course, time marched on and I let it go.....now the ILY....I let it go.....and now I remember other small things that disappointed me but if course, I let them go....

Those small things are starting to add up here - and the ILY apparently bothers me a lot more than I let on.....and yes, I should communicate more, but why for God's sake must everything be discussed ad nauseum....I also understand that men are just not as emotional as us ladies are - but geez, guys must have SOME sensitivity - they are really good at being romantic when they want to "get some" - how come that never carries over into everyday???

OK, I'm going to stop now - cause I'm getting all worked up into a tizzy......

Sorry.

Too bad I didn't think to use SF to get him to say ILY.

And man, I swear I'm never going to talk about this again with him. Okay, one more time, when I say good-bye. I think M just needs someone who doesn't want/need to hear that.
You know, I think what I'm more concerned about is his attitude of "Take it or leave it." This must be a big deal to him to if he's unwilling to compromise.

Well gals....isn't it at least to good to know we are far from alone???

So what is it about 40-ish men (in 2 year relationships) that can't verbally express their love and devotion to us? GRRR.

Hi GG,

Just reading this thread over lunch. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Hope things are going better in your life.

Keith

Oh, all parts of my life are adrenelin rushes right now, BHINWI. LOL. I'll be okay.

I give up trying to figure it out, I'll tell you. And, I thought after a 12 year marriage, that I learned everything there was to know.....

I've decided to have a "all about me" weekend - this relationship stuff gives me a headache....

And they say Men are simple creatures!

Women's Poem

Before I lay me down to sleep,
I pray for a man, who's not a creep,
One who's handsome, smart and strong.
One who loves to listen long,
One who thinks before he speaks,
One who'll call, not wait for weeks.
I pray he's gainfully employed,
When I spend his cash, won't be annoyed.
Pulls out my chair and opens my door,
Massages my back and begs to do more.
Oh! Send me a man who'll make love to my mind,
Knows what to answer to "how big is my behind?"
I pray that this man will love me to no end,
And always be my very best friend.

MAN'S POEM
I pray for a deaf-mute nymphomaniac with huge boobs
Who owns a liquor store and a golf course. This doesn't
Rhyme and I don't give a ******.


(HAHAHAHAHA)

Hey GG, I'm sorry to hear things aren't as you would like them to be in your relationship with M. You must be enormously disappointed, an understatement I know.

Not that you can change this, but why doesn't M like to open up? Can he understand why you need to be emotionally open & need to hear reaffirming words like ILY?

Having an ex who did say ILY, early in the relationship & until he started checking out, did not make him emotionally available. Perhaps the fact that he can't say ILY means there are more things he'd hold back, not share, not allow you to know. Maybe knowing this now will save you heartache later.

For me, looking back, I feel ex wasn't honest with me about who he was & what his expectations were. He held all that so close to his chest I was left to guess. He showed love through actions as well.

Nams, that really hits a chord. I sometimes feel like I don't know what Mike wants out of me and the relatonship. I ask him what he likes about me. He won't say. I give him a pass on this because that's something that's hard to put into words. But he also won't say what he wants out of a relationship. What his expectations are for now, and for further down the road.

Yes, I'm terribly disappointed. However, better now than later. We both can walk away from this. I really would like this relationship to work out, and so I'm not going to just walk. I'm going to talk to M first.

So far my thoughts are this.
*State my understanding that Mike does not talk about his feelings. State "I accept that."
*State that I think he's one of the best men I've ever dated, and that I care for him deeply.
*Share my own insecurities about the relationship
**We don't talk about the future any more.
**M makes vacation plans for himself without any input from me. (Fine, if we're just dating, but not great for serious relationships in my book.)
**I don't know how he feels about me.
*State that I've come to realize I won't be happy in a relationship with someone who does not say ILY to me.
*Reaffirm that I'm not finding fault with him.I understand that if he's a man who doesn't talk about his feelings, he's a man who doesn't talk about his feelings.
I'm just a woman who wants to hear "I love you." "You're special." "You make me happy." I feel too uncertain to deduce his feelings from his actions.

What do you all think?

I think that it's a great idea to talk to M. From what I've read of your posts prior, it sure sounds like you really enjoy your relationship with him. I'm trying to formulate my talk with T, but I'm not quite sure what I want from him yet. Yes, I would like to hear he ILY out of HIS mouth and not just mine, but I'm also torn because I am not looking for him to state that he wants me and only me forever.......I'm just one mixed up divorcee.....can I borrow your thoughts for my talk? I guess in the end we've all got to figure out what we can and cannot accept in a relationship - and from your thoughts above, your expectations are not unreasonable - and I'm hoping that M can come to some type of compromise so that he doesn't lose you........

At the risk of sounding cold, I don't see the point of this. All your statements are well-plowed grounds, so why rehash them all now?

You keep saying that you won't be in a relationship with a guy who won't say "ILY", but your actions say otherwise. So if I were M, I'd roll my eyes and think, "there she goes again". And how can you blame him? You keep stating the same boundaries, and then ignoring them.

Over the past many months, you have said this same thing over and over - "I need someone who can share feelings and say ILY". We all nod and say "yup, makes sense". Then you come back and say "wow, we had a great vacation, he treats me better than anyone else had, actions speak louder than words" - so you keep dating him. I am sure that you are teaching him the pattern - a relationship talk, "crisis", and then things settle back to normal.

The problem with you speech outlined above, is that it is all the same old stuff.

I would really suggest GG that you step back and decide not just what you want from him, but also what your plan is if you do not get what you want. Because while you say you can still walk away from it, you are investing more and more time into the relationship, the kids get more and more attached, well, you get my drift. I would hate to see you investing more and more time into something that you already know will never work out (if that is the case).

BTW, I do not want to threadjack, but I broke up with the dog lady just recently for largely the same reasons - she showed no ability to be emotionally intimate, and I knew that was not going to work for me. So I can see where you are coming from, for sure.

AGG

I'm glad you chimed in AGG. What you said had been bouncing around in my unconscious. The next bullet point, which I didn't put down, goes like this: That's why I want to break up.

Do you think I should just break up with him without the rigamorale? Or do you think he'll want to know why? There's this big sore spot in me right now. We haven't spoken since Wednesday night, and I don't really want to talk about it. Worse yet, he's got a lot of stuff here that I'll have to get back to him.

Phew, good! I was worried you'd be offended by my "practical" comments.


Ah, that's a whole different ballgame.


OK, slow down a bit, GG. Are you sure you are breaking up with him, or is this still a "I will break up with you if you don't do A, B, C" speech? Those are two very different things, and you need to know a priori what you have in mind.

If you are truly done, then I think he deserves to know why, but your conversation would be more focused on "you did not do this, I needed you to do that", etc, i.e. all in the past tense, because heck, it is now over.

If you are still negotiating, then of course you should give him a thorough shopping list of what you want and need, like you did.



Yes, GG, your pain and frustration show through very clearly.


Yeah, that comes with the territory of most longterm relationships; the unentanglement gets to be a PITA.

You know what is going to happen if you break up with him, don't you? He'll have an epiphany. He'll say that you are the best thing that ever happened to him, and he was a fool, and now he'll change. We men are good at being clueless like that. But before we go man-bashing (I'll stay home if you gals go there), the last two women I dated did the same thing - had "epiphanies" after I broke up with them, despite me telling them over and over what I needed. G with her weird habits, telling me she totally changed her life because I "showed her" the way, and now A, who as soon as I broke up with her, started saying that I taught her how to be loving, helped her shed baggage, and now she is ready for a healthy relationship. Well, crap, I am tired of being a teacher.

Anyway, this is your thread, so I'll shut up - but please make up your mind on what you want from M, and what you will do if you don't get it. If you give him the boundary, he says no, then do not keep doing the same thing as before - it'll teach him that your boundary is not really a boundary.

I'll support you either way, GG; you think before you act, and I respect that <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

AGG

Well said AGG!

The main points being know what you want. To break up now BECAUSE he lacks what you need or stating what you need & letting him know you can't continue unless there are changes, & sticking to that.

State all this clearly.

Show him this isn't just another talk for him to get through, but a turning point. Have plans made in your head for what you will do if x,y or z happens.

Be careful of an epiphany!

I admire your desire to spell this out with M. Correct me if I'm mistaken, but in the past you seemed ready to bolt when things weren't quite going as you wanted. Better sooner rather than later type mentality, but without much input from M. You know I mean that in the best possible way. :-)


AGG, I'm sorry to hear your relationship didn't work out. "...crap, I'm tired of being a teacher." (((AGG)))

I think a lot of people have "epiphanies" after dating us old timers because... we embrace the principles of a healthy relationship. Look, we almost automatically stop ourselves from LBing because almost all of us have been through training. We are attune to asessing someone's emotional needs and continuing to meet those needs even after the relationship has lost its infatuation feeling. Then, we negotiate with POJA in the back of our minds. If we care for someone, we are unlikely to do anything that they did not agree with enthusiastically. How many single people out there really understand these three principles?

So, naturally, after we break up, they discover how great we were.

I hate teh automatums. "I need x,y, and z to continue in this relationship" is too much like one to me. Besides, I've voiced thsi issue to M twice before. I'm not the type to constantly want to fine tune the relationship, so I figure M would know this is very important to me. Well, I do know he knows. He asked me on Wednesday if I were at a breaking point. I said no, because I hadn't really understood where I was. Now, I think I am at a breaking point.

However, I'm not sure which course to take. I think I'll sleep on it again. Besides, if he never calls me again, it will just go away by itself, won't it?

I feel ungrateful for even thinking about breaking up.

AGG, I'm sorry the dog lady didn't work out. Dating can be such fun, but so often relatinonships are hard work. There's something wrong there.

Oh, now. You're romanticizing dating, GG. "Such fun", geez I don't know about that...Well, at least not the seemingly endless one or two dates rut I seem to be stuck in. Though lately I've just been spending time with my boys or working on school work.

I didn't realize your talks with M had gotten to the point of him asking if you were at a breaking point. That says to me he's pretty clear about there being a gap he's unable to cross. Sleeping on this sounds like a good idea. Waiting for this to disappear if M doesn't call doesn't sound like a very MBer like thing to do.

I agree with you about ultimatums, I know they get my back up, but how else do you say I need this from you or I can't continue in this relationship. You can certainly soften your language but the fact is still, I need this from you or I'm gone.

When you say it's inevitable relationship partners will, once broken up with, see the light of how great MBer types relationship skills can be, does that mean you would want to continue with M if he claims an epiphany?

I wanted to ask you something, something you may want to consider in your reluctance to let this go with M, but I don't think this is the place. Lt me see if I can send you a MBer email.

Tee, hee AGG, she's back to referred to as the dog lady. I guess that's appropriate.

Thanks nams <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. But you know, I hardly think of it as a relationship, it just never got to that stage. Yes, we were exclusive, and I thought of us as an item - but she put up a consistent wall to emotional intimacy, one that even her push for physical intimacy could not overcome. Physical intimacy without a corresponding emotional one just does not float my boat.

Not unlike GG's situation, I could never get A to reciprocate when I signed my emails with XOXO, called her "dear", or said she looked lovely. Nada. And then she started up with weird LBs, and I had no interest in dealing with that.

So once we split, she said she did some retrospection, and realized that she was keeping me at a distance because she was afraid that she'd get attached to me, that she did not want to have emotional intimacy because she got burned before, that she had issues from her father who died when she was young, etc. And that now she went through this process, and she "gets it", and thanks me for it, and is ready to jump in with both feet. Well, too late, I already checked out. Like I said, I don't want to be a teacher, nor do I want someone to "get it" only after I leave - I have trouble trusting such epiphanies and corresponding overnight changes. Besides, I did try to "teach" her to be emotionally intimate while we were together, but she wanted no part of it.

A is a very sweet lady, and I do cherish my time with her - but it was not going to work for me. And, as always, I am not one to beat a dead horse, and am perfectly happy on my own. Like GG says, dating should be easy, and not full of drama and misunderstandings. I totally agree with that.

Oh well. Time to move on.

AGG

GG, I agree with you about ultimatums, and I don't use them. I figure if I told my GF clearly what I need (or can't stand), it is then up to her to decide if she can or wants to accommodate that. I respect her choice either way, but the consequences are that I then have a choice to act accordingly. So the last two women I broke up with said that after the breakup, they saw the light - but it should not take a breakup for someone to see the light, that is not a healthy foundation for a relationship. Besides, I am still very skeptical of such changes being accomplished overnight.

AGG

YES! You said something I've tried to say over and over when I was in marriage counseling. I don't want to be married to someone who is only willing to change after I've left and filed for divorce. (Although, let's face it, B wasn't willing then either.)

So, I think it's break up. I'm going to sleep on it because I care for this man a lot. He is a great person. At the rootof it, I think he wants something different from relationships and life than I do. I fell victim to the NMNK. UGH!

Nams, I'll call him tomorrow if he doesn't call me tonight.

And I'm checking my email

Nams, send it to [email]greengablesmb@yahoo.com.[/email] Thanks.

I'm off to dinner with my Dad.

GG...when you finally come to your senses and leave this guy, you'll look back at these posts and realize that you did the right thing...

I can't imagine being with ANYONE who couldn't say "I love you" or who forgot my birthday party. Not allowing your dog at his place? Good grief....he may be the "nicest" man you've known in 20 years, but in my mind, you've just been kissing a LOT of frogs.

Do yourself a favor and get out before this becomes a habit.

aeri, your posts are always so refreshingly forthright. Well, yes, I've kissed a lot of frogs in my life. My experience recently has been very limited.

It's so easy to see from the outside in. But when you are finally getting some of your needs met, it is so difficult to walk away. We always want to see the best in people when we love them, but is it real, or are we just seeing what we want to see.

I'm sure M lvoes you in his own way, but it may not be the way you need to be loved.

I'd like to kow how Aeri met her new husband, and how we can find one like him.

I was one of the posters here who had a BF with "ILY issues". I learned the reasons (he had have several losses in his life, the deaths of his mother, the betrayal of his cheating spouse and a very sad divorce, the sudden death of his brother...
The MBers here gave me some really wonderful insight. He is a wonderful man. In fact, I found this place because of him. He posted here a few years ago during his divorce...
He is a wonderful man, and shows his love to me each and every day. I realized that although hearing the words was extremely important for me, he was justified in his reasons for fearing them. I loved him enough to stick it out. I continued to express my love, in word and deed and went on as usual. And lo' and behold (last February to be exact) the words came, and continue to come often <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
I have learned that nothing good comes easy and that patience, honesty and love move mountains.
I hesitate to post often, because so many of you here are so articulate and offer such wise words that I'm afraid mine will seem bit pale by comparison <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
I wish you the very, very best. I know it's hard, and it's painful. Some of the best advice I've gotten from this board is to never settle, work hard on yourself, work hard at your relationships. Good things will come.
((HUGS))
bluerskies

Sup, GG?

It's okay for M to be who he is and not want to change. At least he is being honest. However, it also okay for that not to be what you need. You have expressed what you need, and he has not changed. And that's okay...just as it is for you to leave the relationship.

I’ve tabled the M discussion/decision.

First, M had some serious storm damange to deal with. It would be terrible timing.

Second, my Ex and I have been trying to resolve the summer camp issue. It has taken a lot of energy from me. I always lose “negotiations” with B because B won’t stop negotiating until he gets everything he wants. If I take something off the table, I’m accused of being inflexible and unwilling to negotiate. So yesterday, I decided I was unwilling to negotiate any more. We don’t agree. We won’t agree. So, let the courts decide if he doesn’t like it.

Believe it or not, we met online. The thing is, I wasn't looking for anyone and neither was he! We actually met in a chatroom, of all things!

This is a generalization, but I find that European men are more mature than North American men. I'm 36, my Husband is 31...let me tell you, he's the most mature 31 year old I know...I wouldn't have even CONSIDERED any of the 31 year old "men" that I've met around here.....

I was a veteran of MB when I met him though...I think knowing the MB concepts really helped to make our marriage a success...We'll be celebrating our SECOND anniversary in July--where has the time gone????

I'm European <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />.

AGG

Of course, the danger with falling for someone from another country is... they may want to move back permanently. For me, that would be terrible. Although I know others would love it.

Yes AGG, but you are in California. To bad for us East Coast women!

Well, we all know AGG is a big tease.

I agree. I've asked him at least twice to marry me (he'd have to accept my two dogs as part of the package though - and I know how much he loves those No Kids/With Dogs packages!) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

K here......

Yes, I've tried to convince the man I'm worthy also Truly.

He likes to make us woman drool and does such a good job!

K!

And he wouldn't meet me when I was in CA.
Is he all talk?

JK, AGG

I never worried about this scenario, but it doesn't matter anyhow--I have a European passport...I could go back with him.

GG:
If you were replying to my post and not aeri's, I should add that while I am a born European, I have been here for over 30 years now.. No chance of me going back, I promise <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />.

newly:

Well, I was on the East Coast from '75 to '85, where were you gals??

GG

Tsk tsk tsk... I never tease, I always deliver what I promise... I think...


TrulyHappy:

Ah, well, yeah, but, er, that is different, 'cause it doesn't count, 'cause the dogs and stuff...yeah, that's it!

Karona:

I thought that was supposed to be our little secret, K...:(

newly:

Hehe, nah - I was sick as a dog when you were here. Just ask the dog lady - she got all pissed that I was sick and accused me of "feigning sickness". Any wonder why she is no longer in the picture?

Ladies, this is all very sweet, but I do have two local (i.e. geographically desirable, hint hint) ladies to meet this weekend. Neither has dogs. Wow. Of course they are both NMNK, so.... Stay tuned...

Sorry for the TJ, GG!

AGG

So AGG, where are you from originally?

Aeri, I didn't mean it was a problem for you or others. Just for me.

While I don't believe in love the same way as I believed 'long time' ago, that part stayed somehow intact; If I found a guy I love and he's "My Mr. Right", I could go/move anywhere with him...

Well, that wouldn'nt even be an option for me while my children are minors. I can't move them away from their father. Also, I don't think I'd be happy living the rest of my life in a foreign country far from everything I love except for my husband. I would have to depend on him for everything: that a lot of pressure. Once again, I know what would not work for me.

I can't even move out of my county due to the custody situation, so the thought of dating someone far away would be absurd.
I think it's a very different situation if you have children.
For many of us, dating prospecta are out of state but within a 75 mile radius, which also presents a problem.

St. Petersburg. Not the one in Florida <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

AGG

like Dr. Zhivago? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> These ladies are gonna be swooning even more than before...

Well, I come with two teenagers, two cats, and one dog - none of whom are expendible.....so, I'm out of luck, too.

Besides, I have the diplomat. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

All cats are expendible.

Not on your life. Not on your life. My cats are precious.

...i could have sworn that I posted to AGG after Cinderella and the post DISAPPEARED!

What's up with THAT?

Okay, gang! This thread was supposed to be all about ME!!!!

LOL. Actually, I think the expendability of cats and where AGG is from is much more interesting.

BTW, I had the must beautiful waitress at lunch. I couldn't stop staring. She was Russian.

Well, then tell us - have you had the chat?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


So did you tell her about your great friend (moi) who is all single (at least for the moment)???

AGG

AGG, we've had a chat. M said he'd really work at sharing his feelings more. We also discussed "autonomy" and my concern that he may not be willing to give it up. I also told M that I had switched the cable so that I was paying for it. He was upset because it was part of the gift of the TV. He was also upset because he knew I switched it so that I could break up with him if things don't improve.

I wanted to share on thing with you. You talked about the girls getting more attached to M, and I think they are. However, M and I still spend less time together than you and G did. M comes over one night a weekend when the girls are at my house, if that. So, he's not part of their daily life.

I'm going to wait and see, but I'm not expecting much. I do think that I took action on the cable bill shook him up big time. M thought I was breaking up with him there on the spot.

Greengables,

This made me laugh:

It made me imagine this silly conversation:

GG: I’m breaking up with you!
M: You can’t break up with me! I pay for your cable!
GG [to herself]: Drat! He’s right! I can’t break up with him if he’s paying for the cable. Oh, whatever will I do?

Not at all making light of your actual situation, which I know matters a lot to you.

Too funny!

Sometimes it takes something unrelated to get a conversation going.

LOL! Curious, you are right. It is funny. I hadn't thought of it that way. It was more.. Can I allow a man to pay my cable bill if I'm not certain we have a future?

You can tell that most of us here do not abide by the "entitlement" mentality. We seem to be "stand on your own" type of people.

We know people are users in the world, but we could not be those people.

Greengable,


Good question. Where in the commitment spectrum does Paying the Cable Bill fall? Let’s list out some of the major milestones in increasing order of commitment, shall we?

First date
Regular phone calls
Knows which cabinet the “good glasses” are in
Meet the parents
She stows a few tampon in his bathroom cabinet
Has his/her own key
Helps clean the bathroom
Automatically included in family events and photos
Rent home together
Buy home together
Marriage


Where would you place paying the cable bill on that list? I think it comes down to whether he’s paying for a set period of time, which goes along with it being part of a gift, and paying it indefinitely, which is more like sharing a financial obligation.

Gifts do not have to imply commitment. Of course, bigger gifts usually correspond with greater relationship solidity.

Sharing a financial obligation of this small size implies togetherness into the foreseeable future. But it’s not a permanent commitment. It’s more like saying, “I’m prepared to assume that we’ll be together, and I’m prepared to behave accordingly. If things get really hard, I’m not prepared to say I’ll do my best to work them out with you. I might, but I won’t promise that.”

I spent a lot of time in that “together for the foreseeable future place” when my husband and I first got together. It was tremendously comforting to me. It was my opportunity to genuinely experience the relationship with the safety of knowing that if he stopped being his wonderful self, I would not be obligated to work my tail off to make things work. It was my way of mitigating the risk of getting into a relationship of uneven effort – which is what I had endured before I met my husband.

But back to your question. The uncertainty of your relationship’s future seems much closer to the “I might break up with you” scenario than the “together for the foreseeable future” scenario. And therefore, I can see why you wouldn’t want to share financial obligations. So simply thank him for the gift of the first few months of cable before you switched the service to your name. A gift that you can be very graciously appreciative of, not a shared burden.

So how was the movie? =D

AGG,

the woman who sits next to me at work is from Russia, and when asked about nationality and women, i always say of russian women, the spies are beautiful.

so, let me put your dating in perspective, you would prefer a divorce parent, because then you wouldn't have to deal with the NMNK lack of empathy and understanding. . .

then, being divorced, you woudl certainly prefer the non wayward spouse, so that you got the better one. . . is that a fair estimate?

and then, if you got the non wayward spouse, you would have wnated them to have gone through the Harley MB counseling and sensitivity course, or individual counseling to be fully matured and healed from the divorce wounds, is that correct?

just wondering . . . there are very, very few of those around. . . if any in LA . . .

wiftty

I dunno about all that, wiftty.. I just know that I like J, who is NMNKND ("no dog"), and whom I saw twice now and will see again on Thursday <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

Who_Dat - the movie was great <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />...

AGG

I think that list works for many of us here.
We need someone who has experienced a serious relationship, survived a major crisis in that or another relationship, and has experience parenting (in a similar parenting style of course). Preferably their children are grown and out of the house to avoid the many conflicts and where will you live decisions. Must be emotionally mature and healthy, as well as fiscally mature and healthy.

Now, after these are stated, where does the attractive partner/chemistry come in. Do we find the former first, then let the latter grow on us? Or do we find the chemistry first, then hope to learn the person has the list above?

Did I wipe everyone off the list, or are WIFTY and AGG still on the list? Since I'm not a size 0 in LA, I'm certain I'm not AGG's type (although I may be his religion based on his origin).

I don't think so, Newly. I think I remember reading somewhere that AGG was Jewish. Nice try though.

True <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. You ladies crack me up. How come none of you are on this coast, sheesh....

AGG

'Cuz you are on the wrong one.....the one that may fall off.

LMAO, Cinderella.

Newly, you might be mine though <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />), although I'm not a beautiful Russian. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> (just beautiful <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />)

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I can easily see AGG hanging... already... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

He may fall off, but we are under water yet again.