yeah so I really feel like an Idiot today....guess you can add me to the I am a single loser list once again....just got this email:


Quote:
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SIHW,

I have never had someone so comfortable and trusting to share their thoughts so completely with me. In turn its only fair I do the same. I understand your analogy's message, however sometimes I have soldiers that celebrate the smaller victories to such an extent they feel the lesson is done being learned. And I do salute you and thank you for the time, however it's important for me that this is about me. Not about us, not about you and me. I encourage to find strenth in your life, but I most need to find the strength in my life for myself. In the beginning I was truely feeling like it would only be a while and I would be ready, several realizations have come in the ensuing weeks. One being that I no one I meet during my time here will be a strong enough connection that I would feel comfortable staying, or bringing her home with me. I'm sorry that time is limiting me from building or giving a relationship a chance, but I'm no longer in for hobby dating and I am realistic about the outcome of relationships starting here.

You are a great person, and that is what brought me to a point where I needed to bring myself up to the plate and start playing like a man. I've taken trips into my past in the last couple months that have been some of the most painful moments of my life. Sometimes the memories have been more painful than the original events. After looking back at a wife I cheated on, at the girlfriends I neglected or lead on, I refuse to repeat those mistakes again in my life. I am sorry, but I don't feel that there will be a chance for us before I leave. Thank you for your support, and thank you for desiring to be with me and showing me a part of myself I did not know was there. But I am not planing on staying here, and when I return to Idaho I plan on starting life in a new direction. I do want a family, however I can't find comfort in coming into a family. I know there are many great men in the world who fit into families as if they were their own, but I can not firmly grasp that. I hope to one day hold my newborn in my arms as a shared first experience. I know a lot of what I say will hurt, but I want to be honest and not mislead you at all. I have a bad habit of hiding from saying anything hurtful and truthful and end up putting hope and promises where there is no foundation.

I know our minister has been a great source for you, but he has many difficult things coming in his life right now. It's time that you draw on the friends that have been proud of you. I wish you happiness and fullness in your life.



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It's great to know I'm such a great person who's made him want to be a better man...yet I am not good enough to take home to his family and how because I already have a child it taints me from being a future prospect of a wife and mother for him....

I am trying so hard to not cry at work right now ....guys I need support I am falling apart.

What a selfish creep.

The only child I have ever known or able to ever have was my step son and he is gone for good.

This guy thinks he's so marketable, but I can guarantee you he will issues to be dealt with when he returns from service that wil make him less marketable from his definition.

I’m with Pariah. SIHW, you are SO much better than him! I HATE that letter. It rubs me all wrong and I’m not sure why. Perhaps it’s because it’s all “me, Me, ME.” If he didn’t want to pursue the relationship, why not say so in about 5 sentences instead of dragging it out. I know you liked him, but he’s showing his colors now. And what was that last crack about your minister? Ministers are called to serve others, that’s one reason they are ministers rather than monks. And even in most orders, monastics serve others. “It’s time for you to draw upon your friends”? What business is it of his????

If I were you, I’d tell him it’s none of his business who you look to.

As for the whole child thing… There are lots of good men out there who welcome an instant family. It’s not easy for them, but they still love the children and being part the children’s lives. In a bit, one will wander into your life. I just know it.

I'm not even sure I would bother to respond to a letter like this. Immediate no contact seems to be in order. He will try to contact you to make HIMSELF feel better about dumping you...and he doesn't deserve that.

You will be fine. You will find someone worthy (as he obviously is NOT). He mentions previously cheating on his wife and leading women on...doesn't sound like a great catch to me.

At least he is able to admit that he can't jump into a ready made family. He's not man enough to handle it. It takes someone special to be a good step-dad...and he wasn't it.

Do NOT consider yourself a loser because of this guy!!! Please!! I don't know how long you've been dating him or what your story is...but it sounds like you deserve so much better!!!

Maybe, despite all the words, he wanted to make sure you knew it was over. And the "ready made family" comment certainly solidified that for you - didn't it?

Package deal, and it's a wonderful package you offer.

I agree, this loser is trying to make himself feel better by justifying why he "needs" his "own" family.



Karma will come back and bite him.


Bad.

thanks guys I almost wish I hadn't read it at work...every little thing sets me off and I have seen the bathroom more times than I like to count today.

surviving, i am so sorry. oh gosh i know your pain. gekko and i broke up over the summer after over a year together and after making plans for me and my kids to move down there and make a life. it hurts terribly. i am still healing almost 5 months later. the only thing that has truly been helping me to heal the most is to have no contact with him. it was very hard to do, but i had to do it.

we are here for you
mlhb

SIHW, wow, as much as it seems that you are hurting,
when I read about the bathroom, and thinking of crying,
I think that's a good thing.
You must have felt strongly, and loved strongly for it to hurt so much. It takes alot to open your heart after a divorce. You opened the door, and I'm guessing you liked that feeling.
Perhaps he was just the test guy that God put here to show you that you could open up. Now, after you mourn this relationship, you will begin to develop a better sense of your wants and needs.

It takes a brave person to open up to love. You are that person.

unfortunatly I do have to see him to get his stuff back to him like his utility jacket with his name and unit patch (I am not supposed to have this)and some other stuff. I can't believe I let myself believe in him and support him...I feel like an [censored]....he even had me going back to church again....oh and the minister is his best friend who is a minister from minnasota who is in the army with him.

My faith is really REALLY shaken by this. There were so many promises made. He knew how I had been hurt and in the beginning did everything he could to gain my trust. He swore this wouldn't happen.

I am sick of having the carrot dangled in front of me and only getting a fricken nibble.....i swear I feel like someone is laughing at me right now. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Don't know what caused me to pop in, but better to end it now than find out he is not a committed stepfather and a disappointment to your son. I think as a mother, that would hurt me more than anything.

Hang in there. We learn from everyone we encounter. What did you learn from this man?

To be honest yes I opened my heart alot to him and I think I had let my imagination go...I did and still do love him...I denied it for awhile because I had a fear that if I admitted it and it didn't work out it would hurt more...but then more and more I got more hope it was working out and it would be a future I could look forward to....and really thought if it worked out...I could be an army wife....I sacrificed and gave to this relationship more than I really had for any other because I believed in it so much....and i believed that god sent him to me when I needed him most with the way he came into my life.

can't answer this right now as I don't want grief, sorrow, or anger to answer for me.

oh trust me, i know exactly how you feel.
i was supposed to be getting a ring this christmas. plans were being made for me and my children to move down to him next summer. i had talked to my realtor about selling my house and had an appointment with my attorney to start the process of changing custody so we could move down there. we broke up in june and 3 times he wanted to work things out, picked out weekends for us to spend time together so we could talk and 3 times he backed out on me. promises were made with us as well.

the bottom line is, these men were not ready for the level of commitment that we were. as much as they wanted to think they were, in the end they see that they were not.

as much as i hurt, i am glad this came out before i moved down there. i would have been stuck once i moved down there.

i am not going to lie to you... it is going to take a lot of time to heal from this. mail him his stuff. or leave it somewhere that he could get it. i would not see him again. and i would end contact so as not to be pulled back and forth. that hurts more than anything.

mlhb

Thankyou MLHB.....I am trying not to let my anger get the best of me as it's trying to surface now....the italian woman in me just wants to blast him for alot of things.

and that is hard... i didn't say anything for a long time and let it build up. i used to have a blog where i shared everything. and i finally lost it for about a week and spewed it all on there. well, he read it of course. and then i felt i really bad about it. i should not have used an open space like that to vent. then he said ugly things back and it was just terrible.

find a healthy way to vent your anger, and when you are calm, if there comes the chance, maybe you will be able to express you feelings of hurt and disappointment. anger comes from hurt.

it is so hard when you swear you have found the one. gekko and i were perfect together in so many ways i thought. we had so much in common and i too grew spiritually being with him. i swore that god had put him in my life to finally give me someone i could love and be loved by. i am still not sure why he was put in my path since it did not work out and since it ended up being so painful. some things i will probably never understand.

you can email me if you need someone to talk to...
my email is
mhugginsboyea@yahoo.com

mlhb

Sent you an email so now you have my addy as well. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

I know what I learned the hard way... If some makes promisees early in the relationship, I run. Especially at my age, we all should have learned it takes time to get to know someone. If a man comes on too strong in the beginning, I suspect he's in love with infatuation.

I've also learned that when a man says "It's not you, it's me" he has a point.

Just fedex him back his stuff. Do NOT see him again. From his email, I wouldn't be surprised if he likes drama and hopes you'll beg him to reconsider.

Put his stuff in a box and mail it to him ---- COD!

The minister bit got me. He doesn't want you to go to his friend because his friend may end up thinking less of him for leading you on. If YOUR minister is the person you want to talk with DO IT. Your exbf has no say in the matter.

Put his things in a box, tell him he can pick them up at a particular time. Make sure you're not home. Hey, if it happens to rain that day, gosh, that would be unfortunate.

I am sorry for your pain.

Or, take the box to the minister to give to him, and give you an opportunity to talk.

I think I will call an officer friend I know who is on staff up there and just give the stuff I am not suppossed to have to him.

didn't sleep too well last night found myself up and down all night long....talked to his brother last night who is pissed at him....this morning found out I have been removed from his myspace and his myspace is private now.

Did he leave you any goodies like a genIV body armor?

On e-bay a good genIV is going for around $900.

Let's just call it "compensation" for deception.

Or if you want some really good karma, just mail it to me!!!!

Pariah, only you would need body armor.

SIHW, just keep breathing. He is not capable of being the man you need him to be. Perhaps its the military thing. Everything is so regimented, so feelings have no place.
I had my heart broken by a West Pointer years ago.
I think deployments (or potential deployments) change how people view the world.

You are alive, you are well and you have a wonderful son. At times like these, it is important to count our blessings.

He's not deployed newly he's here at the DLI in Monterey, Ca.

secondly if he left body armor like that...I would keep it for when I get a job with a department.

what do you think about me calling the command up there to get him his stuff back.

I think his "stuff" is REALLY low priority. And I wouldn't bother myself too much about getting it back to him.

Let HIM go out of HIS way to accomplish this task.

I think that letter was extremely manipulative!
He's trying to keep you away from the minister....

I say, take the high road. If you know someone close to him, drop it off to the minister.
Or, leave it on the porch with a message about when he can get it.
Don't cause trouble, just because you can.

he lives in the barracks so I can't get on base....and the minister our mutual friend has issues of his own....his wife is unhappy and wants to divorce and is telling everyone BUT him....he can't take any extra stuff right now...he's barely holding his own.

SINHW,

I'm just curious, how long have you two been dating?

we knew each other for about 5 months before we started dating we had been dating for 3 months....we were good friends before. Maybe It would have been better off if we had stayed that way.

SIHW,

I'm sorry you are hurting. I don't want you to think I'm taking this lightly...I'm not. You have to realize that 3 months is a short period of time. Thank goodness you found out early on instead of 1 year down the road.

Just take this as a learning experience and don't give so much of yourself into a relationship so quickly.

Remember this, you and your son deserve someone who can except both of you into his life.

You and mlhb can give each other support....you both will triumph over this too.

(((Hugs)))

I talked to mlhb last night she is a doll...wish she was closer and not so far away....we could be in trouble with 2 minds like ours working in unison. muhahaha....j/k

oh thank you surviving... you are sweet too. and yes, i am sure we could get into lots of trouble, er, have lots of fun <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

how are you holding up today??

mlhb

got a text message and got myself deleted from his myspace because I didn't lie to his brother......I am severly pissed...almost to that ****** hath no fury point....

Just got a text message:

what stuff do I have of yours and you can toss my stuff. You called my brother with some crazy stuff and put the first rift in 25 years between us. we wernt together long enough for all this . It's over. We don't need to get together and to talk things through. Talk to your friends and family not mine.

I got ticked and went off a bit my 10 page response:

First off your brother and I are friends he asked me to call. I am not going 2 lie to 2 save face for you. U know what stuff you have of mine. I don't want to talk things through but I do want some questions answered. Lord it's amazing how u don't know how much damage u have done. Look I have always been honest with you. But I feel you have been less than honest with me. Why did you have to use me. Why did you have to give me hope. I am glad u can eat, sleep and not cry through this. I am sorry I never ment anything and was just another notch in ur belt in monterey. Everything in that selfish email told me 2 u we never ment anything. U attacked my worth as a person and as a mother. I told mysself once I would not date a soldier again and I thought u were different and had some honor. Make the plans to exchange the stuff and quit being a coward. U created this mess be a man and clean it up so we both can be left with some dignity.

Texted him with:

I am sorry for being angry but U know I am hurt and from that comes anger. I don't want 2 be angry. I want 2 b 2 sdults who can communicate. I heard all about how u were feeling I listened 2 u. I obeyed what u wanted. I felt u never accomodates me in the same way. Now things r out of hand and i feel as if I am being made out 2 b a bad guy that I am not. BF u sau u don't want 2 b an [censored]. stop being one.

Got more text messages at lunch....he doesn't quit:

I only have a minute here. Things are out of hand because you made them that way. You read into everything I have said. I was honest and that is why your are angry.

My response...you need to re-read what you wrote from my perspective.

XBF: I have not ever made you out to be a bad person and I have not attacked you as a mom. Right now you are taking things out of hand. We were not together long enough for the drama of not eating. It's over and I can't see what else there is to talk about. I have given you what answers I have and you make more out of them there is. You have sent me about 20 (really where did XBF learn to count) texts here in a few hours. Please stop I am concentrating on arabic and I'll get you your stuff back to you.

My response:
Just set the time up and give me the respect of answering what I need to know.

XBF:
what do you need to know it's going to be several days before I get any time to do anything.

My response:
Good I need time 2 cool down before asking anyways. Just set it up.

ARGGGHHHHH! Damn this man

This is what I have always called "poise practice".Poise and grace. Repeat it to yourself. Don't make a breakup after 3 months ugly. Be very cool and walk away. It may be hard because you hurt but you will feel better. You aren't going to get closure. He says "it's over". That has to be enough in the closure department. He doesn't care about his stuff so why should you? He said toss it, so give it to the Salvation Army. Don't call his brother. Don't give them a reason to talk about you.

The way I see it, your stuff that he has probably isn't that important either. Don't get worked up about something like CDs. If you're talking about a $3000 watch, then, yes, make arrangements to get it back.

Good luck and life will get a lot better.

sihw,

you are letting your emotions get the best of you. do NOT talk to him or text him anymore. you cannot rationally talk with all of the feelings you are having right now. i know you want to spew and be angry and get answers. you aren't going to get them this way. trust me. the one time i spewed all of my feelings out there in a not very mature way (hindsite is 20/20) the reaction i got from him was just as much anger and ugliness back. and i can't blame him for that. it was the only time in over a year that i had ever really lost it, and it i did not do it very gracefully. or very maturely.

breathe sihw. vent to your friends. from this point on leave his family out of it. in the end, like it or not, blood will be thicker than water. i acknowledge that you are hurting, and i get it completely. but if you talk as you are to him in the texts, that is the kind of response you will get back in return. IF you get the chance to talk again, be calm, be rational, and say how you feel. "when you said or did this it made me feel this way", don't attack. i think you can salvage your dignity if, after a few days, you can honestly just say "i am sorry for how i reacted to this change in events, please try to understand that this hurts me and i am sad and disappointed. but i should not have flown off the handle like that. you are entitled to how you feel, and when you are ready, if you would like to talk and could just answer a few questions for me, when you have the time, i would appreciate it" i know it sounds kiss A** but believe me you attract more bees with honey... kindness will usually beget kindness.

in my situation a month or so ago, i was angry. i was damn angry. i had let some things build up and this final disappointment threw me over the edge. i am NOT proud of what i said, i spoke from emotion, and i posted it on my blog. granted, my blog was supposed to be my safe place, and he had always told me to be brutally honest on it. but my angry outburst on my blog had people commenting and saying things about gekko, because they were protecting me, and that got ugly to me. my blog got turned into something i never intended and he read it all. i took my blog down immediately and took some cooling off time. and i ate crow because i was wrong to that. and i sent him a very heartfelt apology explaining myself in a calm and rational demeanor and saying what i was really feeling. and from that i got a much better response. and that is how i choose to deal with situations now that i see how much better it worked.

sometimes we just need to feel what we are feeling and release it BEFORE we talk to the person we are angry at and who has hurt us.

i am so sorry sihw, this is hard i know.

mlhb

I thought I did better with my apology after I cooled down and thats why I kept my responses to his lunch texts short and to the point.

i see what you are saying... but i know how raw all of this still is...

give it a few days ok? really... i know how hard it is. i wanted answers like yesterday. and once i had some cool down time and we actually emailed each other a few times, i did get some of my answers. but it took lots of time and lots of cool down time.

hugs, hugs, hugs
i have shed all of the tears you are shedding and then some..

mlhb

how are you doing today surviving??

mlhb

SIHW;

I understand too the whole "wanting answers" thing.

BUT (big BUT here)....he is NOT the one to give you answers.
You will get nothing from garbage and justifications from him.

Just DON'T take your worth, your value, your esteem from someone who only has HIS interests and HIS agenga in mind, SIHW!!!

Any "answers" he could give you would only be to alleviate his guilt, his bad behavior -- to justify what he did.

You probably feel used, manipulated, lied to, tricked, etc.
And nobody wants to feel that way. So you want him to make you feel like none of that is true. But the fact is, ALL of that IS probably true. Trust your own instincts on this.

Find your answers YOURSELF. You already KNOW.

slept a bit better last night *the martini for a night cap helped it was interesting...never had a caramel apple martini before*

I am sure I will cool down now that I have released what I had bottled up for a long time.....trust me I have always been able to wear a mask when confronted with things...xh could never figure me out. When it comes down to it I will be able to handle the situation.....I have had a sneaking hunch after a few mentions from friends.....the detective in me is piecing somethings together....I will let you know when I eventually find out. For now I am going out with the boys tonight. can't sit around...chocolate and ice cream therapy does my thighs no good. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

this is an understatement.

Was doin good but you know how there is always a trigger....I heard this song today and it is exactly everything I am feeling....

I can take the rain on the roof of this empty house
That don’t bother me
I can take a few tears now and then and just let them out
I’m not afraid to cry every once in a while
Even though going on with you gone still upsets me
There are days every now and again I pretend I’m ok
But that’s not what gets me

What hurts the most
Was being so close
And having so much to say
And watching you walk away
And never knowing
What could have been
And not seeing that loving you
Is what I was tryin’ to do

It’s hard to deal with the pain of losing you everywhere I go
But I’m doin’ It
It’s hard to force that smile when I see our old friends and I’m alone
Still Harder
Getting up, getting dressed, livin’ with this regret
But I know if I could do it over
I would trade give away all the words that I saved in my heart
That I left unspoken

What hurts the most
Is being so close
And having so much to say
And watching you walk away
And never knowing
What could have been
And not seeing that loving you
Is what I was trying to do

What hurts the most
Is being so close
And having so much to say
And watching you walk away
And never knowing
What could have been
And not seeing that loving you
Is what I was trying to do

Not seeing that loving you
That’s what I was trying to do

Can anyone name that tune......

oh yes, rascal flats...

not a good song..
has brought a tear or two to my eye as well before.

mlhb

I prefer this one from Rascal Flatts

Stand

You feel like a candle in a hurricane
Just like a picture with a broken frame
Alone and helpless like you've lost your fight
But you'll be alright
You'll be alright

Cause when push comes to shove
You taste what you're made of
You might bend, till you break
Cause it's all you can take
On your knees you look up
Decide you've had enough
You get mad you get strong
Wipe your hands shake it off
Then you stand
Then you stand

Life's like a novel with the end ripped out
The edge of a canyon with only one way down
Take what you're given before its gone
Start holding on, keep holding on

Cause when push comes to shove
You taste what you're made of
You might bend, till you break
Cause it's all you can take
On your knees you look up
Decide you've had enough
You get mad you get strong
Wipe your hands shake it off
Then you stand (then you stand)
Yea, then you stand (then you stand)

Everytime you get up
And get back in the race
One more small piece of you
Starts to fall into place, yea
Ooohhh

Cause when push comes to shove
You taste what you're made of
You might bend, till you break
Cause it's all you can take
On your knees you look up
Decide you've had enough
You get mad you get strong
Wipe your hands shake it off
Then you stand (then you stand)
Then you stand (then you stand)
Yea, then you stand (then you stand)
Yea (then you stand)
Ohhh (then you stand)
Ohhh (then you stand)
Ohhh (then you stand)
Ohhh (then you stand)
Then you stand

LORD LOOK AT MY HOROSCOPE FOR TOMMORROW......


Your greatest strength is your ability to hold on to a feeling that's important to you. This can be the basis for an enduring love, especially if you are feeling frustrated about not reaching a goal. Don't waste energy being self-judgmental; rest assured that your persistence will bring success in due time.

sorry i missed your call last night. i am fighting a bad cold/allergy thingy and was strung out on cold medicine LOL and sound asleep very early...

mlhb

you drug addict you :P....it's ok I can forgive this once...haha

last nights recap:

well the guys were pooped and didnt want to drive to monterey.......i ended up falling asleep on my best friends hotel bed while she was finishing up a business meeting.....had a HORRIBLE dream (well the dream wasn't bad waking up and it not being real sucked)....made me sad....

my friend came back and she and I changed and met her bosses who are cool people...we all walked down town...by then the line for my usual hang out was long....they wanted to go to a different bar one were there are a lot of older creepy guys...who sit around and stare at you...I hate that bar....said no I will stay here the manager will let just me in....they continued on....the manager let me in (VIP baby)...I went in

most of my friends who were at the DLI have graduated and moved so didn't know too many people there but I did see a few I knew....I just really wasn't feeling it last night....I love to dance (I am a hip hop dancer) but it took a long time to get me motivated......

I got a text from my friend (who by this time was drunk)...she kept texting me to get them in but they wern't at the bar I was at and I couldn't get a comperhensive text from her....eventually I left a friend drove me back to the hotel and he dropped me off so i didn't have to walk by myself.

I called my friend....she couldn't answer me because she was drunk so I thought damn I better walk back and make sure she gets back here ok......on my way back she was staggering up the street with a guy she knows who is in town for the conferences for their work.....she gave me a dirty look...I knew what she was going to do with him....but I said what? and she just gave me the snottiest offensive reply...WTF?

I don't even remember what she said but I was so offended....I said whoa....and even the guy noticed.....they continued on and she was like goodnight...I said well i have to get mystuff from the room and she acted like it was the end of the world.....so I got ticked and decided I needed a jog...and ran past them and back to the hotel....got to the room gathered my stuff...by now I was upset....left the key card on the bed....got in my truck and went to the gas station across the street.

while there I could see my friend sitting on a curb and the guy trying to get her to stand and walk as a police officer was doing a traffic stop not 100 yards from where they were.....I wanted to go and stand her up and make her walk before she was dragged off for drunk in public charges.....she is my best friend....but he got her up and walking.

I left and drove all the way home....in the car I just started thinking about a million things and how things have been so screwed up lately.....and just started bawling....made it home washed my face and went to bed. Got up called xh to see where my son was....they hadn't left yet he wanted me to pick him up I said no I will be late for work you can take him to the babysitters and gave him the directions....I told him to drop him off earlier....he still doesn't listen.

Forgot my cell in the car...when I checked it this morning my friend had called me 5 times.....I haven't called her back....figured she would call me eventually at work. she usually does. I am depressed I know it. I am fighting to get out of it.....some times I am good and others I just have to cry....

**bangs head against the wall** trigger triggers fricken triggers I am hating them today.

I can't do this today I have a really important interview......I need eye depuffer cream....*goes to find some*

well here I am...not really caring anymore....didn't want to get out of bed this weekend....and when I was forced to because people kept knocking on my door and my nephew coming in unannounced to get the clothes he should have gotten the day before.....I really didn't feel like being there around everybody...even though it was someones birthday......I ended up locking my door and just crying with my best friend on the phone. I know everyone thinks I am silly and over reacting....maybe even crazy.....one thing I can tell you is when I fall I fall hard....even tho he didn't cheat he did something far worse.....he lifted me up and gave me hope just to watch me fall......It felt like he reached his hand out and took me to heaven and gave me wings......and without warning....they were ripped off and I was thrown into H3ll. Now the grief and despair I feel....is so huge....my heart has been broken so many times....I didn't need this. I want this pain to stop....it affects me in everything I do.....I am a caring person....but when I don't care anymore...I know something is wrong.

cliche as it is, it is just going to take time to heal. you trusted what he said and gave of yourself completely to him in a very short period of time. i think you have learned that you won't do that again. but time frames really do not matter that much. in my situation, over 5 months before deciding to date exclusively and than almost a year together after that and it still did not work out. so, you just can't predict these things. you trust and you give and see what happens. because the alternative is not trust or give at all to anyone and live a very lonely existence. love is a chance you take. and sometimes it works, and sometimes it hurts.

do i hurt over the ending of my relationship? well i think you all know i do. BUT, i would not go back and not do it all just to avoid this hurt. i got to feel real love again. i got to have for the most part, a great year with someone. it shows me that i can do this. i could just lock myself in my house and not love ever again so i could avoid any pain. but that is not living.

i spent far too long and far too much of my life being numb. at least when i allow myself to feel things i know i am alive. and i know i am human. dating this guy was not a mistake, maybe falling too quickly was. but you will learn from that. and pay attention to one's history. like it or not, it does tend to repeat itself as you have learned. do i think dating gekko was a mistake? no way! he made me want to be a better person. i feel he brought the best out in me in many ways. and that continues now even though we are not together any more. you said you bf encouraged you to go back to church, etc... so he did help you to be a better person. don't let that stop just because you aren't together anymore. everything, i am a firm believer, everything is for a reason. we may not see it now, but we will sometime.

i think what you are feeling is normal.

mlhb

Thankyou MLHB.....you have been a wonderful comfort....why does it seem longer than it actually has been......I am so tired too I fell asleep in the recliner last night.....yes like an old man in front of the TV....I don't even remember Heros...I am turning into my dad....which is sad.

Let yourself grieve. Take care of yourself. You are human and you deserve to feel - both good and bad.

I hope the interview went well.

ehh interview didn't go well as I had hoped...I had a hard time concentrating....the sad part of it is.....he and I wern't apart....MLHB and I had this convo last night....unlik her situation....he and I were here and went places all over town...so part of my problem is every where I go I keep seeing memeories.....After my interview I went to the beach where we would spend time....it used to be a comfort for me....but all I could do was cry. I can't go to my favorite hang outs anymore.....not because I have fear that he will be there....but because of the memories.

crazy dreams last night....I was with a partner (XB) in a police car...we were chasing a old studabaker(like from the 1940's) with tinted windows...we were trying to shoot out the window (miami vice style) but the window wasn't down enough.....not sure what it means...any takers?

i think you need to stop smoking crack before you go to bed at night.



<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

mlhb

ooooohhhhh burn......someone is fiesty today. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

i sent you a text... sorry about missing your call... email me your idea ok?? now you have me curious....

later'
mlhb

hey, wanna go to nyc with me in february?? i refuse to go alone! any takers??

don't worry.....I had another crazy dream last night....woke up going whoa what was that gotta remember it and post it......got up brushed my teeth came back and now I can't remember it at all....

NYC???? I can't afford that at this time plus after last july my rents would have a fit if I went to the east coast again.....They don't like me having my own life or going on trips.....yeah I know...I'm 29. What happend to you coming out here? we were hoping to go to seattle next month....for a weekend...I could pull that off.

well still email me... i wanna know what you had to run by me! lol

me, go out there... hmm... i shall have to think on that one.

mlhb

email sent for your viewing pleasure..... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

sent one back at ya.

mlhb

Thankyou master may I have another.......

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

maybe tomorrow.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

mlhb

ooooohhhhh <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> *shudders with excitement*


Thankyou master! SQUEEE!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

*I am dying at work reading this...I hope you are satisfied <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />*

satisfied to the max...

now get back to work!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

i was done work 2 hours ago.. haha
it is almost 6 here.. you still gotta work nanana

mlhb

Bite me wench...... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

hey, did you notice our two smiley green guys stick their tongues out at the same time! LOL

wench, real nice. that is midevil terminology for ho ya know! haha

ok, gotta get off of here and do my dishes!

mlhb

timing in harmony.......speaking of wenches did you watch without a trace last week....it was classic:

1st guy says: by the color of the lipstick I believe she was an escort.....lady of the night....you know...a hooker...

2nd guy says: in NY we just call them ho's....

ok dishes are done..

yea, in ny we do just call them hos... even up here in wayyy upstate ny we do! got plenty of them here in my little town. the ho to married man ratio is like 2 to 1 or something like that.

ok, i just made that up but it must be close.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

mlhb

dude....(yes I know I am californian)

I think we call them biotches or something like that here..... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

gekko had a great term for them.. he called them "hoors"

i do like that, it was pretty funny.

mlhb

haha....thanks I am never having an hoorderve again.....


you know we are severly OT right now....

yea, and OT is taking your mind off of THE topic and making you laugh so it is all good!

hoorderve, good one!

mlhb

you know how good I am at multi tasking.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> or was that my other hoor.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

sorry so long to reply to you today miss sunshine <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

you have email...

go check it right now
now
go
do it now

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

mlhb

damn arn't we a demanding little sucubous today <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

today??

ALWAYS! ask anyone i know... lol

No wonder I always feel so tired after talking to you.....hmmm

ya, you're funny. NOT!

hehe

were my changes ok?? are you going to send it??
if maybe trying again with him some time when HE is ready is what you want i would send it.

mlhb

yeah....ummm I sent it.....with a slight change...... *winces*...but it's good I ran it by a couple of people first and they agreed.

what did you change?? just curious...

you did a good job by the way on it.. i forgot to tell you that. i just wanted to help you tweek it..

hugs
mlhb

I put the part about understanding things better back in...because I know there is major confusion there on both our parts....

do me favor... now that it is sent and back in his court.. GET OUT THERE AND LIVE YOUR LIFE! DO NOT BE CHECKING YOUR EMAIL EVERY 5 MINUTES TO SEE IF HE HAS RESPONDED EITHER..

just my motherly 2 cents.

mlhb

I don't have internet access on the weekends so it shouldn't be a problem.....he has my number....so he can call....it's not that hard. anywho I'm outta here.....we are all going to the movies. I will try to call ya this weekend **HUGS**.

*yawn* morning all....looong weekend....

No reply to the email MLHB dear.

you will get one eventually...
or maybe a call...

live your life and don't pine for him.
and when he is ready to talk he will let you know.
and you will either still have your door open...
or
maybe not...

sometimes they wait toooo long thinking we will be here waiting for ever. that is not always the case nor should it be.

happy tuesday
mlhb

I think he's in Idaho right now honestly....that would be why he hasn't gone on myspace.....I know he was planning to go home for thanksgiving.....so we might not hear anything until he gets back. we shall see...still debating on if I am going to go out of town or not next weekend. wish you could come.

oh, me too. it would be fun :-)

live live live girl!

mlhb

i am really looking forward to next weekend it's exciting

there are two women who volunteer in my office for a few hours every morning... the husband of one of the women volunteers there too

whenever those ladies get to cackling like that, the husband and i kinda wander off

it's stereotypical but i think women really are more social creatures

/hijack off

ok back to cakling ladies

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

cackle......we cackle....hahaha I never thought of it that way.....I can see MLHB and I now....like 2 hens....hahahaha

see there?

i made ya smile how bout that

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I DO NOT CACKLE!
i don't sweat either.. I GLISTEN.. see the sparkle?

surviving and i don't cackle, when we talk it is just a gathering of 2 brilliant minds masterfully at work. that's all...

what? don't believe me?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

mlhb

no comment I might be beaten

yall both sound like wonderful women... hope ya know i was just teasing

we are both wonderful women.. well, me more, but.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

we know you were teasing. although i was dead serious. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

mlhb

I may be alittle late but boy woman you were full of yourself that day :P

Update he's definatly back from Idaho and I have confirmation he got and read the message...gotta love myspace...tells ya when they got it.....I sent a copy there as well as his email...sorta like a certified letter.

Oh and I saw pics from Idaho...yes he went to the bar and yes I have seen a pic of him taking a shot....not happy....and yes his best friend the pastor...was with him there to keep him "accountable". Oh MLHB got other news on the stalker chick front....i will call you later about it...she might be down for the count.

So does that mean I can have the initials WW.....like as in wonder woman

*proudly stands tall with fists on hips and full hair blowing in the wind of victory* <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

WW has a completely different meaning to me...

how bout a giant W on ure chest instead

oh and on a side note, i have a weak spot for role playing

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

haha....ok but what would the W stand for then?? I don't know i still prefer being cat woman.

how about putting the ww outfit away in the closet and getting a catwoman outfit then?

meow

Been there done that read the sig sweetie.....your a day late <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

never really read the lyrics.....you know they are right for someone after a break up....

People say she's only in my head,
It’s gonna take time but I'll forget.
They say I need to get on with my life,
what they don't realize.

Is when you're dialing 6 numbers just to hang up the phone,
Driving cross town just to see if she's home.
Waking a friend in the dead of the night,
Just to hear em say its gonna be alright.
When you find the things to do not to fall asleep,
cause you know she will be there in your dreams.
That's when she's
more than a memory.

Took a match to everything she ever wrote.
Watched her words go up in smoke.
Tore all her pictures off the wall.
That ain’t helping me at all.

'Cause when you're talking out loud and nobody’s there,
you look like ****** and you just don't care.
You're drinking more than you ever drank,
sinking down lower than you ever sank.
When you find yourself falling down upon your knees,
prayin to GOD, beggin HIM please,
that's when she's,
more than a memory.

She’s More, She’s More…

‘Cause when your dialin her number just to hang up tha phone,
drivin cross town just to see if she’s home.
Wakin a friend in the dead of night,
Just to hear em say it’s gonna be alright.

When you find the things to do not to fall asleep,
cause you know she’s waiting in your dreams.
That’s when she’s more than a memory.

People say she's only in my head,
it’s gonna take time but I'll forget.

How do you stop loving someone? Can anyone tell me?

I dunno, but my wife made it look easy.

sorry to tell you it's not a female thing.....I keep trying to get him out of my head but it won't go away....I can't even go out with anyone else and just hang out because I want to be with him and being with anyone else feels wrong still.....i think about him everyday....even thought I don't cry THAT much over him anymore....I feel numb inside....

I don't think Pariah meant that ONLY women make it look easy. I think he was just speaking from his own experience with his wife.

I meant my wife succeeded in making me absolutely despise her in a complete flash.

I can't even describe the contempt I have for her.

I thought I would spend my life with this woman, but when I heard her trying to have me killed by the OM, everything went totally polar opposite with my feelings.

ha funny I felt the same way about my XH when he showed no remorse after I misscarried our second child.

Honestly, as painful as it is to love someone who doesn't reciprocate that love, or who doesn't want to be loved by me, I would not choose to stop loving that person even if I could.

It would be nice not to have the feelings of being "in love" of course. But if accelerating the dissipation of those feelings means cultivating hatred or apathy, then...no.

When I choose to truly love someone, it's a done deal. That's the kind of man I want to be, despite the price.

Problem is I have no reason to not want to be with him......because my questions I have have never been answered....he didn't cheat on me....his family loves me and still are great friends to me....it's really surreal...

He's been deep in working on his relationship with god and how he wants to be a good man. Well leaving someone you say made you want to be a better man isn't acheiving your goal.....and I realized soemthing the other night while I was watching the Nativity story......He makes comments about how he can't come into a family even though he made the effort to be involved with my son....He has to trust in god and jesus now....ok well who did god entrust to raise his son....Joseph....I never really thought about it but Jesus was raised by his mother and a step father....if god entrusted that....why are so many men afraid of it...If he and I talked I know that would be part of the conversation....I now see the excuse men used as flawed because if god could entrust his child to someone to do it....they should consider it a blessing to be involved with a child who is not there own.

It wasn't love, it was infatuation. It wasn't real yet. Remind yourself of that.We can all take this as a lesson why we shouldn't let BFs or GFs become involved in our children's lives until the relationship has had time to develop. You may be saying, "yea but if I had waited he wouldn't have realized until later that he didn't want to walk into a family".

He would have found some other reason.

You'll be fine, just give it some time and stay busy! Pretty easy to do this time of year isn't it?

For me it is real....EVERYDAY it's real. I was there I know the things we did the connection we had....the things we shared with each other and the places we went into each others personal lives. I don't base love on "how much time you were together". Call me a fool but I believe in love at first site...time is relative....I don't believe it takes a certain amount of time to fall in love. I base it off what two people share and open up and communicate to each other....we had that for awhile even when we were friends. Something drastic changed with him...maybe it was the army....I still don't know. But I will say this I DO LOVE HIM. unless you were there please don't tell me it was anything less because i know what I feel in my heart and I listen to it. I will not regret not admiting it because i don't want ANY regrets.

And honestly ever since I got divorced I HATE the holidays...I grin and bear it for my son but honestly I hate them....I don't really want to be around anyone during them...let alone my family.

SIHW,

Point taken. You are right, I wasn't there so I don't know what it was.

You are right about the holidays too. It's easy to dislike them. The traffic, the tree in your house, etc. It can be such a pain. So can families. I used to get so mad at some of the comments my family would make about my situation. The holidays are going to come though so we have to make the best of things. It's fun to get dressed up and see folks we only see in December. I have been to many parties by myself and it can be fun. I've also taken random dates to some of them too which also makes for adventure.

I haven't gotten used to staying up late and doing the Santa thing by myself but at least I get to do it the way I want to.

passage of time with said person not sharing it with you?

OMG....my Ex EX the one who cheated on me the whole realationship...the one I almost married.....called me and left me a voicemail....wanted to talk to me because he hadn't talked to me in awhile......you know what I did right.....hmmm number 7 DELETE......don't pass go don't collect $200.....He really must be crazy if he thinks I would call him back.

OMG I am soooo tired...somebody smack me.....So DS and I took a road trip got back at 3 am and I had to be at work at 8 am...I got 3 hours of sleep.....But we had fun and did some bonding.....We got to visit with family we haven't seen in awhile and XBF's brother and SIL and I had ALOT of fun and DS and there son had a blast. They want us to come visit again but number 1 STAY longer and 2 Fly in....I will definatly head that advice and not drive next time.....I can't wait to go to bed.

Ok here is where I am at if anyone still cares......Still love him.....thats not going away no matter what I try.

But have been able to move on to hang out with some folks.

Still no word from him as he promised.....he will be going home to Idaho for x-mas.....his brother is already there...my good friend....he wants to sit him down and have a talk with him. Hopefully I will hear something after christmas. again this isn't normal I have never had this much trouble getting over someone. on a side note...one of his friends who I hadn't seen in awhile...I ran in to the other night....I didn't recognize him at first he actually called to me and we started talking. He did not know BF and I had broken up and was rather upset at the way BF broke it off. He said he wanted to talk to him and I said no...I don't want to be blamed for something else. He said your a sweetheart and you were good for him I don't understand why he did that. I just told him I don't either. We talked somemore about cars and christmas plans and such then I had to get back to my friends so he gave me his number and asked me to keep in touch. He has always been a nice guy and it was good to see him. I would have thought all his friends would know.....whats goin on?

Sounds like his friend is interested...

Just heard from my best friend....she email XBF about me....he said he will call to meet me at the end of this week.....he faild his last test and is being sent to Iraq. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/teary.gif" alt="" />

Ok so.....if I am truly to communicate with XBF before he leaves this is my only chance to do so before he leaves.....There are things I never got to say. Things that I need him to sit there and for 5 minutes...do what I did for him.....just be quiet and listen. I feel the need to tell him these things...just incase for some reason he doesn't return from Iraq. I have realized I am a person who needs closure to move on.....Just giving up and letting it lie does me no good. It eats away at me. My Best friend does not understand. Once I say what I have to say and get my questions answered. It will help me immensly. She thinks it's a "waste of time".....dunno mabey the talk for him will be....but for me it will leave me with NO REGRETS. once I say my piece and i know he knows.....I won't have anything to regret. I don't want to live my life with regrets. Anyone know how I should start the conversation?

Wish I could help you. Like your best friend, it is hard to understand why you want to talk to him. He ended it a month ago. He cheated on one wife already. Sometimes we do not get the closure we want.

I am assuming you have been friends w/his brother for a long time. Because if you met him at same time you met ex and then went to visit ex's brother...well I am probably not reading correctly.

If you don't want regrets, try not to have a conversation that you will regret.

You WILL get over this. It just takes time. No contact is the easiest way.

No contact is not helping it's making it worse. I need questions answered and I need to say my piece.

ummm his brother is married.....I adore he and his family...they are like family to us....I could in NO way think of him like that.

Sorry SIHW,

I didn't mean to insinuate anything like that. I probably read it wrong. I was just thinking how if I had broken up w/my BF, a guy I hadn't dated long, who shortly thereafter drove a long way to take his kids to visit MY sister, whom he had met through me, I would think it weird.

I just hope you are not using other channels to try and get at him. His friends can ask him why he broke up w/you but his friends and family "ganging up on him" is not going to make him remember you any more fondly.

If it's not there, it isn't there. They can't make him love you any more than you can. However, if you are not careful, you (and they) can make him wish he'd never had anything to do with you.

NC WILL WORK. It's only been a month and you are talking to his friends and family. That may be NC with him, but it is still a close connection.

With all due respect - how will this help you get over him? What happens if the answers you get are brutally honest and hurtful to you? How will that make it all better? And, sometimes saying nothing is MUCH better than saying anything.......hard as it is, I say move on, forget him and concentrate on your life.....

won't work been there tried that already.....I have already discussed this with people on this board as well as an IC....Some people need to confront whats bothering them to get over it.....this has always been the case with me.....if I push it aside to "just move on" it won't work....once I confront it I can move on.....that has always helped me. Thats the difference between people who care and people who never did care. People refuse to believe now a days that some things are possible. Look I want to grab the bull by the horns and face it and get it out so it's not stuck within me anymore. I am a great multi tasker...no matter whatI do it's in the back of my mind. I have tried like ****** to move on and hang with other people....but it's not them I am with....it's him. I need to face him...tell him whats bothering me...so I can release it. I have made a list of the questions/issues to be covered. and as far as the brother thing....when we hang out or talk.....the subject of XBF is usually not brought up. That is kept seperate from our friendship.

Besides....if the person you loved/cared for was going to a war zone....and there is a possibility they won't come back......would you tell them how you feel and clear up anything that was standing idle......or "let it go" and if they don't return always regret that you never said a thing when you had the chance.....I don't want any regrets hanging over my head. That way I know I did everything I could on my end.

As long as you're not making it a 'so there' conversation. Will you? Is it about making him listen to your side and acknowledging he wronged you or whatever? Cos if that's your intent, you can't make him listen, you can't make him care, and you can't make him even want to acknowledge your side. So you're going to walk away even more frustrated, angry, and confused.

If you're honestly doing it to respectfully let him get on with his life, to give him your blessing, go ahead. But if you're doing it to get some sort of satisfaction, it most likely won't work. Just like all the people who plan elaborate revenges on people and then, once they've done it, they feel empty and wonder why it didn't make them feel as good as they've been imagining it would.

JMO

I know I havn't updated in awhile...so here is the latest.

So you all know of me XBF who wouldn't give me my property back and was being a regular [censored]. My Best friend got sick and tired of me being nice and patient and set him a myspace message politely asking for him to give me my stuff and he replied that he would before leaving to go home for christmas break. Well he never did....his brother who is my good friend tried to approach him about it when he saw him at christmas and was rudely cut off by a blunt "I don't have her stuff". His brother then told me...I tried he's dug his own hole do what you have to do.

At this point I was sick of being nice he had many chances to do the responsible thing and failed. I know because of his guilt that why he couldn't face me. But I didn't care if he sent it to me or gave it to his bro and the next time I see him he can give it to me. The most important thing of value is an earring of mine he has which I asked him for way back when we were still together. It may not be real onxy but it's the sentimental value of the thing. My grandmother gave me those earrings before she died and I will be damned if I loose them because he wants to be an [censored]. So i sent him this message as my last effort before I went ahead and got the ball rolling:

ok....look. I understand you hate me.....but this is about being responsible. I have asked nicely....I have been nice. My patience is running out. The thing I want the most is my earring back. My grandmother gave me those earrings before she died. I hope you can understand the sentimental value deposited in them. If for some reason you had entrusted me with something one of your grandparents gave you with the PROMISE to return it I would no doubt do the right thing. You claim to be a good christian...well just going to church isn't the only requirement for that. Honestly...you have treated me like I was the one who did something wrong....stop blaming me for your guilt....5 MINUTES thats all it takes to drop it in the mail, or give it to your brother and he can give it to me the next time I see them. You have time to go to ball games and poker tournaments. I sure there is a mailbox along the way.

I FORGIVE you for all that happened....I won't live with it anymore....Yes it caused me EXTREME Pain and my trust in men is now further damaged. You never understood because you never cared to stop and listen. Part of that is my fault be cause I was too scarred to say anything. I shut my mouth and sat and listened to you and NEVER told you how I was feeling. I am sorry for that. I tried to deny it and it made it worse. But I don't want to live with these regrets anymore. You won't give me anytime to get the healing I need. So I will say it here. I was disappointed you felt you could not face me. I never did anything to try to hurt you and I don't understand why you couldn't tell me to my face. We used to be able to have conversations and all of a sudden it was like we were walking a long a path and suddenly I hit a brick wall and went whoa how what when did this appear and you were on the other side. I tried to communicate but you couldn't hear me through the thickness of the wall so you left and didn't try.

Well here is what I have to say:

I loved you....yes no matter how small. Part of me will always have a little love for you. I don't base it on time I base it on what people share together. I trusted you with some of the most important things to me my heart and my son. I really don't care if you belive it or not.....but I will not live knowing I didn't let you know before you go off to a war zone you may not come back from. You were good....I don't know what happened to the man I met who cared about me and was excited to see what the future held for us. I miss him and I will always hold what he gave me in my heart. While your out there....Rememeber even if you don't feel the same someone at home in that states loves you even if it's a little bit. and please if you get in a situation fight like ****** Never give up for those here who love you....come home safe please. My prayers and love are with you wherever you go.

T

No response so I called a friend who is on staff who is an officer and he got me in touch with his company commander.
and last night I get this txt.

XBF:I need your address. S has the bowl and will look for this earring I told you i was out of town and now your harrassing my chain of command great welcome back for me there. Dont that again the captain is more pissed at you and wont be nice he says he as no part of it send me your address.

Me: Send it to ur bro I trust him more than u right now.(thought about it and was like that was ******)

XBF: good call cause Im all dangerous or something whatever however you want to be on it works for me.

me:U r the one who friggin couldn't b responsible enough 2 return what was mine like u promised. I understand u being a coward and not answering my questions. But u brought this on ur self.

Then i gave him my best friends adress as I don't trust him with mine.

XBF:Roger I will question me about being a coward all you want you have half the info (really. maybe if you answered my questions I would know) and no clue what being brave is to me (can't confront a girl to brake up.....thats brave) I have other priorities than winning a war of words. have a good life ill get your stuff in the mail soon

Me:I will believe it when i see results. Please make sure my grandmas earring is undamaged. U have no idea the value it holds 4 me. u never let me express a lot of things. But i did love u a bit and I still 4 give u. But I won't live with it in my heart. b safe out there please. u r in my prayers.

and i left it with that. so 2x4's please.

Oh and just found out he possibly lied about going to Iraq. Go Figure. Still not funny. It's like playing with someones life....don't joke about going to a war zone where people die.