Okay I will try to keep this as brief as I can. I'm 46. Hubby is 43. We are both in our third marriages. My first one ended because of infidelity (mine) of 13 years which produced two children. I have made amends to all parties and asked for forgiveness. I have received. I spent a long time working on myself and learning what caused me to do that etc. My second marriage was 8 years and ended due to many issues-the last was my H admitting he manipulated me for two years by withholding sex. Hubby's first marriage ended because she wanted an open marriage. He didn't. Second one due to infidelity. Hers. He has four children. The last is five. His last wife left when she was 18 months old. He has had full custody since. Birth mom rarely sees her (once in two years). Does not pay support. He supports his other three kids. His first marriage lasted 6 years. Second one two. In between this he lived with a woman six years which produced two of the kids. He's an excellent dad. Mr mom really.

We met and married ratter quickly. Neither of us while married to anyone else. We were together only four months. We have been married now since August and things are falling apart very quickly. We negotiated most things up front or so I believed. I believe we both wanted this marriage to be our last. I have a history of child abuse. Sexual. You name it. Have done recovery but still have some PTSD when stressed. I was up front with him about my past. Including my A in the first marriage. He has some self esteem issues he has said. He never feels good enough. He's very sensitive and emotional. Unlike any man I've ever been with. Which is what attracted me to begin with. Very romantic. Loving. Neither of us are well off financially. He is supporting four kids. One totally before he met me.

We moved in to his small home that he rented. My two kids and I who are with me every other week. It's cramped. The two girls share a room. There's little room for anything. It took a month to move me in and get storage with the five year old starting school etc. we have little help with her. She was also used to having all his attention prior to me coming on the scene. My kids are older. 17 and 12. Much more independent.

Both of us had growing pains. I think him more than me. He's an introvert and when we dated he had down time to himself more than now. He went from being a full time dad to full time dad and husband. Whereas I already had every other week to myself. I'm an extrovert. We began arguing. Horribly. He began to pull away and stop meeting my emotional needs. I began to demand that he do so. Especially since my last H didn't even sleep with me for two years.

A lot of arguments were over text. Which is ridiculous I know. Both of us have made a lot of mistakes. I've apologized and asked for forgiveness. He says he's trying to heal. Right now he will only give me a peck. We haven't had sex in a month. He doesn't hold my hand or compliment me. I admit that all I do is try to talk the problems out. Constantly. Which exhausts him. Counseling has not helped much. At first she was kind of on his side. Then mine. But she suggested separation on out third visit together. I refused. I want to save my marriage.

I suspect my lovebusters are at the root of this. I've bought the book today. There is NO affair that I can find and I have looked. Now though because of my snooping he refuses me access to anything at all. I think some of this is control on his part.

If you read all that. Thank you. I know we married in haste so I can skip the judgments on that if that's ok. I'm in it now and I want it to work. He's very non committal. What's to see changes in my nagging him to meet my needs as he says it. He says he wants to but he can't as he feels judged bad that nothing he dies is good enough. He has also decided I'm a narcissist. My mother was one though and I've sought therapy and I was cleared of that. My kids are healthy. Well adjusted and do well in school. Deep down I'm afraid he's really the narcissist. As a giver I can see how I would be an easy target.

Hi Sillygirl, welcome to Marriage Builders. I think it is a good idea to start with lovebusters. The fighting is destroying your marriage so that is where I would start. You should also check out this article: How to Create Your Own Plan to Resolve Conflicts and Restore Love to Your Marriage

You're both lovebusting this marriage to pieces. I don't see any real problems meeting each others needs (it's normal for sex to disappear in this situation) - your true problem is the lovebusters.

Angry Outbursts - if you're too angry to talk you are too angry to text. Plus anger is counter productive. Stop it or there will be nothing left.
Selfish Demands - Stop nagging and start implementing respectful and cheerful requests in which it is acceptable to say 'no'. Eliminate any hint of moodiness or punishment if you don't get your way.
Disrespectful Judgements. - Neither one of you is a 'narcisscist' for heavens sake, you are simply at war with each others' taker. The taker is your (perfectly healthy) selfish side. It is normal for rowing couples to consider only their own taker, instead of each others. Start considering his taker and he will stop fighting for it to be considered.

You need to stop the lovebusting on your side initially. That is the first step.

Welcome aboard.

Sillygirl,

A lot of arguments were over text. Which is ridiculous I know. Both of us have made a lot of mistakes. I've apologized and asked for forgiveness

Correct me if I'm wrong, but are you implying that the texts are between you and some other men?

And if so are you are using these other men for emotional support to replace the support you should be getting from your H?

Given your H's luck with wives if either is true it must terrify him, texting is not an innocent activity.

God Bless
Gamma

I read that to mean that they use texting to conduct their arguing.

Arguments between us over text. No other men. I agree I need to stop the love busting. Now

I'm so furious right now I could flip. He has had my two oldest keeping DSD the last two days. So we wouldn't have to pay for camp. Which is fine. But they also would like to enjoy their vacation from school too I'm sure. He's started this tactic with me like I'm a mental case. "I'm sure it's frustrating when people don't do what you want them to do". Like I'm a control freak. I'm not. She's five though. I expect her to behave.

She was arguing and screaming in my face so I took her dessert away from her. He's anti spanking. I'm not. I don't believe in beating but a swat I've done with both my kids. Both of them are respectful and make good grades. Anyway I've agreed not to spank her. So I text him to tell him she lost her dessert. I got home before he did. That's his only punishment. I say yes okay but I don't like being screamed at in my face by a five year old at the top of her lungs. I get back for him. "Yes I know it's frustrating when people don't do what you tell them to do".

What? She's five. I'm the parent in charge. It's like he's mocking me. I'm seriously losing it here. I think he WANTS me to leave.

Your children are reflecting back on to you both the behaviour they have witnessed.

Please stop the texts. Those can be so badly misunderstood. I read that comment quite differently; that it was meant to reassure you.

When he came home though it was clear that he meant it exactly the way I thought. Like I'm a mental patient.

Thanksgiving weekend we went to visit my father. He is an alcoholic that's been sober 40 years. He left my abusive mother though and left me there with her knowing what she would do to me. He couldn't take it.

I have only recently in the past years confronted him with how hurt I feel about him doing this. He refuses responsibility. He's never really been there for me but I've turned to keep a relationship with him since he's my dad.

The weekend turned out badly. My dad got mad at me. Cursed me in front of my husband and kids. Told me I was a crazy [censored] like my mom and that I needed to get off my pity pot for being molested. My husband didn't really defend me. I cried the five hours back home without being supported. He didn't hug me or make my horror and sadness a priority. They left me in the car and went in to eat. While I cried. I told them I felt like I was treated like dog crap. He tells me last night that I'm self absorbed because I wanted that to be about ME. Well. Yeah. Kinda. I was the one cursed by my dad. I would have liked my family to console me. I don't know how that makes me self absorbed.

I'm human. I have wants and needs like everyone else that deserve to be met. Why do I need to feel guilty for that? How does that make me self absorbed?

This is going to sound brutal. We all have baggage here so you are not hearing this from someone who has not walked in your shoes.

If you do not want to be treated as the mental patient, don't play the pity card. You cannot have it both ways. Your father abandoned you. When my mother tried to abandon me (a second time), I looked her in the eye and told her she could not do that. Work on solving the problems or have nothing to do with your father. Either way works.

It is important with MB that the past is in the past, when it comes to bringing up family abuse and letting it harm your marriage.

Your husband's comments were disrespectful (DJ) and hurtful. Consider this - what happened in your childhood, happened in your childhood.

You are supposed to honour your marriage above all others. You continue to force a relationship with your father, despite that he is a poor father, and subsequently subject your husband and children to your anger/emotions from your father's abuse. You CAN stop a relationship with your father, thereby removing one of the many stressors that lead to disrespect in your marriage, but you choose not to. The term 'pity party' is disrespectful. It seems though, that your husband is also frustrated that you are subjecting yourself to a situation which he cannot help you. That seems unfair to him too, no?

Have you read the step-parent materials on the website?

As I read your original post and your subsequent posts, I came to the same conclusion before I realized that he said this overtly (there was a typo and it didn't stick out). It appears that your husband is withdrawing because he feels he cannot make you happy.

Instead of constantly trying to talk about your problems, have you considered using UA time (undivided attention - dating) to fall back in love?

3rd marriage also means both coming in with terrible habits - use this as an opportunity to learn to break those habits. People divorced twice tend to not be the best at saving marriages, correct? You can fix this, but it will be about changing decades long habits.

Here's the ironic part. I decided to end my relationship with my dad because of this. My husband doesn't want me to burn that bridge because he thinks I will regret it. I do not think I will. He wants to maintain a speaking relationship with them for the sake of my kids. Because he says my folks are good to the grand kids (although I disagree because he doesn't respect their mother) He says he will be glad to take them to their house for visits if I don't.

He's not committed to MB. Although I told him I thought it would help. At this point here are his requests.

No texting at work. No arguing in front of the kids or where they can hear. (We are both guilty of these two). No discussing our problems to death.

He feels exhausted and overwhelmed with my need to talk it out. He was full of words when we connected often blowing my phone up with long emotional loving words. I am more than happy to try UA. But he's not even open to kissing or holding my hand. He doesn't want to date more than once a month. Like a real date. I'm ok with that as long as we can have a couple of hours to ourselves every night.

Part of the problem is him being unwilling to set boundaries with DSD. As in "honey we would like to get dinner ready and catch up with each other for the day. Why don't you play in your room until dinner is ready?" Or various other things to build in pockets of time. He's not with his other kids as much as he would like so he's pouring all his love for all four into this one. Unhealthy for him to get his needs met this way. Unhealthy for her.

His idea right now of UA is watching TV together after she goes to bed. I would much prefer cuddling on the couch or having SF. He's not open to me meeting those needs.

He says for me to BACK off and let him come to me once he feels he has "healed" from the arguments we have had. That panics me because my Taker hasn't had my needs met in a while and I'm emotionally vomiting.

I've read how to improve your marriage without talking about it. It talks about shame. He feels shamed. I know. He says stop shaming me about not meeting your needs because I want to. I just can't due to the arguing.

He's so different from any mam I've been with. Dated. Most if them would be thrilled to have a wife who wants to connect with SF. Or who doesn't put the kids above them. He's the exact opposite. I feel doomed to fail.

Here's a good show on gaming.
Radio Clip on Gaming
Segment #2
Segment #3

If you keep your father in your life, simply because he is your father and for no other reason - then that is the only standard he needs to live up to. Your father is living down to your low standards. If he doesn�t have to do anything for you but hold a biological father title, then he won't do anything!

I agree it was a missed opportunity for your husband to console and comfort you, but I am wondering if it would have made any difference to the situation going forward if he had.
The situation sounds like it was an unpleasant experience for him too and one he has very little control over. Have you and your H truly PoJA'd the decision to visit a father who behaves in this way? Perhaps your H does not like the experience any more than you do but hasn't been given a chance to cast his vote.

Again, the decision to punish your daughter has to be PoJA'd. No spanking without joint agreement. If that is the deal, you did the right thing by abstaining. Why go on and complain to your H about what you really wanted to do, after that? It was, again, a missed opportunity for him to sympathise with your frustration but if he is in withdrawal after all the lovebusting then it is natural for him to be aloof.

You can request, cheerfully and respectfully, if he could comfort you more when you are upset. Wait until you are calm until you ask this. He is likely to come back with his own complaints, so be prepared for that. It may be that he doesn�t like the arguments with dad and your complaining about it when you have to PoJA discipline. So just thank him cheerfully for his useful complaints and try to work on them. This is the way you clean up your side of the street and demonstrate by example how you would like your complaints to be met.

Useful complaints? There is no poJA as he's not interested in MB. My thinking is that if he wants me to raise her. Be left alone with her then he should consider my thoughts on punishment as well.

I was sick last night. I have bad fibro. My knees are my primarily source of pain. Not one ounce of sympathy from him or caring.

Is this something I can bring about by removing love busters? Will he become more concerned?

He was uncomfortable. Not with going but with what happened. He said there's a lot of hurt on both sides. My dads included. That he is probably angry with himself and taking it out on me. I don't care as he called me a [censored] in front of my kids. I'm done with that relationship.

Part of the issue is that he doesn't understand the level of dysfunction I grew up with. Even though DSD mom was in and out of foster care and abused. I'm wondering if he was able to comfort her???

Does he have to understand?

I grew up in dysfunction and my H did not. I cannot truly understand what it was like growing up without it, so I don't see why he would with it. He's your 3rd husband, you guys have several children, why is it even necessary that he should understand the dysfunction you grew up with? You are a grown woman with children, do you realize that staying in the past results in your children being forced through dysfunction?

You cannot change the past, so why are you allowing it to help ruin a 3rd marriage? It isn't going to change.

Do you understand that POJA is just both of you being enthusiastic about a decision together? He is not okay with that?

Overall, I'm seeing that you resent him greatly for not doing what you want him to do. He does not console you like you expect, he does not discipline the way you expect, he does not want to do SF/UA time like you expect. Here is where POJA is going to help, because it's time to set expectations you BOTH agree on, rather than expecting him to behave to your demands, and him withdrawing from you because you get upset that he does not.

How do I broach the subject to PoJa? Right now anything I bring up he sees as controlling.

Yes, I'm resentful I know because before he made me very important and now I'm not. He's resentful as well.

I don't kow how to bring it up when he believes I manipulate with everything, even my desire for him.

I have raised my children completely different than I was raised. Neither of them have been abused. I've never even told them to shut up, although I'm not a permissive parent. I am the envy of most of my friends because my kids are so well behaved, polite and successful. I didn't have good parents but I have surely been one.

the only reason I feel he should try to understand is that even though I've done recovery and moved on when I am stressed like I am right now with the marriage issues it activates PTSD. Our counselor tried to explain that to hm. that I am recovered but unusual stress activates that fear response in me which causes me to panic like I normally wouldn't.

Wanted to see how you guys thought I did this morning with Selfish Demands.

H has an older son that was conceived through a one time session with an ex girlfriend when he was younger. He has supported the child and went to every prenatal appointment but the relationship was over before they hooked up again. He was young and dumb. The woman thought he would change his mind and marry her due to the baby and when he didn't she made his life a living nightmare. She took out injunctions to keep him from going to pediatrician appointments etc and because of the state where they lived and the fact they were not married and this was years ago even a father's rights attorney couldn't help him.

It's a long drawn out story but he's tried his best and he's just not allowed to see the son. I've seen the letters, returned gifts, faxes to the courthouse etc. She has relatives in local govt there as well so that complicates things. He pays his support but has no rights.

I found out that this son is on Instagram. His profile is private but he follows one of the other boys and I just happen to follow him. I asked H what would he think about MY son sending him a request to see if he would accept it so we could see some photos of him. He's not seen a photo since 2009. His mom or neither him would recognize my son's name in connection to his- and my son follows the older boy. All the teens follow other teens they may not know on IG.

Anyway, he said NO! Please don't. I'm afraid to aggravate the situation. I said okay, fine, I apologize for suggesting it. He said "when you ask me a question you can't get mad if I say no" I said "I'm not- I am trying to do things differently which includes not being upset if you deny a request of mine for something" He said "I don't know- are you trying to do things differently?"

It would have been a selfish demand if I got angry he didn't comply right?

Did you listen to this?

I couldn't as I was home and he would have heard. Going to try to do this at lunch.

Why would it be a problem for him to hear it too?

Well I'm not ready to let him know I'm posting here. I posted on divorce busting once and he sniffed out my post and used it against me.

I would be hesitant to post on Divorce Busting.
They do not have the track record that Dr Harley does and do not have a plan to restore romantic love.

Good info. He's not gaming but I see the concept.

Yes, you did well.


As for PoJA, you have to lead by example. Just make sure you adhere to it and wait and see if the example you set regarding PoJA becomes an attractive one to your H. The way to adhere to PoJA is to refuse (respectfully) anything you are not enthusiastic about and to make sure it is safe for him to say no too, when he isn't happy about a decision.

For example, if he brings up that you should have a relationship with your father, just say you don�t want one and simply say it is very important your feelings are respected on this. If he persists, just be firm and respectful.

Similarly, don't try to shoehorn anything on him without genuine enthusiasm. If he is not keen on something, make it a point to permit a no, so he can see the example and experience the effect of having his feelings respected for himself.

If you make sure neither of you subject each other to anything NEGATIVE and avoid poor, reluctant enforcements then you will have prevented lovebusters and lovebank withdrawals.

Once you have mastered that you can progress slowly onto making positive differences by mastering enthusiastic agreements.

Excellent show on POJA.
Radio Clip on POJA
Segment #2
Segment #3

Well I worked on reading the material and starting to eliminate love busters. I guess it didn't work. We had a good day on Sunday I thought. Set some boundaries.

Monday he was sending me some mean stuff about the past. I asked him to take step daughter to his moms and come back and let's talk. He left. Said he would be back. Never came home. Sent me some texts that were raw. I kept asking him to just come home

Tuesday I got a long detailed email asking for a separation/divorce. He sees no way to reconcile. No way to get over his resentment. I talked about MB and how we could use it to fix our marriage. No response. I asked him if there was someone else. He denies it. I can find no evidence. In some investigation I did I see though he has all these websites bookmarked about battered husbands and emotional abusers. He truly believes this of me I think.

An email. I'm devastated. He won't answer the phone. Return a text or email.

Where is he staying?

His parents with the daughter. I know because I drove by at four am the other night.

I told him even a MB weekend or coaching is cheaper than divorce.

I admit I begged and pleaded today. Pretty pathetic I guess.

What happened?

I just want him to reconsider the divorce and work MB. I'm in a lot of pain. He's been gone since Monday with little communication except strictly business since he sent me an email asking for the divorce. An email?????

Today he emailed me about money. He just keeps saying I told you I'd help you and I will. Yes. But you told me you loved me and wanted this marriage.

Anybody?

Sorry, Sundays are slow around here. Let me get a refresh on your thread. I remember relating to your story when you first came. Will see if I can help.

For now, just remember that all is not lost. You didn't get into this situation overnight, and divorces don't happen overnight. So take several DEEP breaths, and try not to share your negative emotional reactions with him. (Anger, frustration, fear, worry, hurt,etc.) Put a SMILE on. This will help him see you in a positive light, without your saying anything.

He may be testing you to see if you are serious about changing. Just reassure him that you want to change so that he can enjoy being with you, and feel happy and relaxed when you are around him and the kids.

I apologize if you already said this, but how long did you date and how long have you been married? Also, did you live together before marrying?

He may have felt that way before, but with the way things have gone, he doesn't seem to want it now. Whether he is just reacting to your interactions or has his eyes on something different, it doesn't matter.you can still work a Plan A.

From what you have said, he cares a lot about his children. He seems to be running scared, after what he has gone through with his previous wives. He may want to nip this negative experience in the bud earlier than later.

When you say that you are a good parent, but treat his (Or your) children in a way that HE FEELS is disrespectful, he probably worries about the future with you. This does not mean that you are wrong, or a BAD parent. But that is not the point. It really isn't about being a good or bad parent. It is about finding ways to parent and discipline that you BOTH feel good about. And this is one example of IB on your part. Moving forward and behaving in a way that causes unhappiness for your partner. If he is not enthusiastic about you spanking the kids, or raising your voice at them, and he tells you, but you continue to do it anyway, (Even if it is your own kids) then you are not following the POJA, and you are doing IB. You are causing unhappiness for your spouse. And I am assuming that he is worried about how you will treat his kids in the future.

If you really want to save this marriage, (and I still don't know how long you've been married and if it's really worth it) then you will need to respect his feelings about disciplining the kids, and find systems of discipline that you can BOTH feel good about.

I would recommend that you read "He Wins, She Wins".

I hope that you don't feel defensive after reading my posts. My husband's personality and behaviors sound very similar to your husband's. We are working very hard to change 20 years worth of habits to create a great marriage.

We had challenges in negotiating, disrespect, sexual fulfillment, angry outbursts, addiction, anxiety, depression, child discipline...but no physical affairs, thank goodness.

What brought things to a head was that my husband couldn't see living the rest of his life with what he felt was angry, abusive, and controlling behavior.

He had never respected or acknowledged my feelings and perspective. It is very common for a woman to freak out, have PTSD, and throw fits to get her husband to pay attention to the hurt. So I understand about crying for 5 hours...(okay maybe not THAT long). Especially when you feel invisible. Like you keep saying something but he doesn't get it or care. Right now, the truth is that he doesn't.

But I do get it. I was not a drama girl growing up, but after years of my perspective and feelings being dismissed, I became one. But I wish that I had known about Dr. Harley and his lovebusters. It puts a name to all those disrespectful ways of acting out of frustration, fear or hurt. You can find new ways of communicating and solving your problems together.

Even if you don't stay married, you can practice eliminating lovebusters and fostering respectful communicating with your family and friends. I have a feeling that yelling must have been common growing up, just like for me. When we have been pushed to the limit, it's like second nature for us to use disrespectful reactions to keep ourselves safe or get others to listen. It really is abuse and control...just saying.

Not defensive at all. I'm actually not the one who yells he is. And I did respect his requests with no spanking. Thank you for responding!!

He's provided the deposit for a place I found after trying to get out of it. He said things like "well even if you were homeless your kids wouldn't be. They could stay with their dad until you got on your feet". I thought "I'm not separating from my kids because you've decided not to be married". He also tried bullying me into a smaller place (this one is not huge). A cheaper place. No he knows I didn't marry him for FS. He barely has any. He does have some retirement he can borrow against if he wants me out.

I wrote a very lengthy apology letter to him via email. Where I addressed everything I did. I acknowledged I do need some therapy for my PTSD. He believes I'm borderline and a host of other things. I offered to see a dr of his choosing and open the report up to him. I'm doing that because I know there's nothing wrong with me except PTSD.

We dated four months. I know. Not long enough. This started three days after the wedding. The withdrawal. The not being who he was before. At that point it was too late to have regrets.

I asked him sweetly to work MB. I asked him to come here and read. Because he's very intelligent and could get behind the brain science. In reality every word out of my mouth seems to be a love buster. He's at his moms. Will only talk via email. I've begged and pleaded.

Today he said we both need closure and it move on. It's just not meant to be. I told him I didn't believe that. I said it could still be great. Why not come home for two weeks-let's start doing MB-since I've already found a place but can't move until 3/1. I said if I'm wrong what have you lost? Some reading time. If I right look at what you will gain.

I said I would devote myself totally to his needs and the kids. I did not make it about what he's done to me. Other than the present hurt of divorce.

I told him I wouldn't contact him until Friday. Give him time to consider. I asked for two weeks. I believe MB can work.

A friend told me she doesn't believe he's done or he wouldn't still engage in conversation about anything I've done to him (what he perceives). Also she said she thinks he won't talk on the phone because he would give in and come home. I don't know.

As it stands I will not beg him anymore. If Friday comes and he says no then I will begin the process of starting over as smoothly as I can.

My last words were to him "I married you in front of God and our children. I took my vows seriously. I said for better and for worse. This is some of the worse. Yet it can be what we dreamed of. I know it can. You can shut me down. Refuse to talk. Divorce me. Yet I'm going to stand for my marriage until the last box is moved. You do what you feel you need to do. I'm standing for this marriage. Until the last box is moved. For better or worse. I meant it".

So down tonight. Reading some of our old messages.