I've been pouring over the articles and suddenly realize how destructive I have been. Given this information, the course of action should seem fairly obvious. Change using the tools on this site.

But it's not that simple. For example, I'm pretty sure I have done all the evil things listed in love busters like selfish demands... yup, I'm guilty of all of them in spades. I'm pretty sure I can start to alter those quickly and make some significant changes.

Here is the tricky part. In regard to sex, I have sexual aversions now as well. I have not found where Dr. Harley addresses how to deal with such a lack of satisfaction with sex that you just find it disgusting. In theory, I thought that if I shared what I liked and she shared what she liked, we could happily meet each others needs. During oral sex I asked for it to be a little faster and stronger. Not as a judgement, but gently guiding her toward what worked for me. Any request for change on my part has always been met with brutal resistance. Not always in the moment, but within a day or so, I get told 'I don't NEEEEEED rough sex' with such vitriol, that I feel as though I can never ever speak up about sex. That's how it started out anyway. fast forward 30 years and we have both become so bitter and damaging that I am surprised we haven't spontaneously exploded.

I realize now that my wife is an electric fence person and even gently asking for a change is inviting resistance or a fight. Usually, she simply does the opposite and waits for me to pick the fight after trying to gently guide her again.

So now, I find zero pleasure in sex. None. I could bang all day with someone else, but she shuts my desire down in no time flat. Looking at her can turn me off.

It seems that no one addresses what happens when lack of effort and passive aggressive actions result in sexual aversion in men.

As a man with a very high sex drive and a taste for the wild side of sex, I just can't stand the slow, low key nature of her sexuality. I'm mad at myself for this but I feel as though I am not even in the bedroom. I'm just a tool to meet her emotional and rare sexual needs.

I know this is counter intuitive to think a man doesn't want sex because the demand for all of my preferences to be omitted is not something you expect. I could really never have sex again rather than have sensual sex. I used to like it but it's like having a pure diet of honey or nothing at all.

So the real question is how do I learn to WANT sex with her again if I never enjoy it? If we do what I like, she's out. If we do what she likes, I'm turned off pretty quickly. I had hoped we could have both met each others needs and all would be fixed but she can't or won't meet me half way.

But I'm still expected to have desire for her...

First, a quick question. Do you like porn? If so, can you give me your background with porn?

And have you had any affairs?

In the beginning there was no porn. Once the sex stopped, I started watching porn. She had an affair then I did, then we became swinger.

Porn did little to change my views of sex compared to swinging. Oddly, the things I learned was that I never want to sleep around again. I prefer one woman. And also that what I wanted was a responsive lover. From day one, before porn, before swinging, before affairs, my wife was selfish in bed and things were one sided. I am literally asking for less than I was one year after marriage. Before you throw me out with the bathwater, know that my wife had sex with many men and women and was known for being wild. Just never with me. I'm the car you keep in the garage and never drive, while the old clunker has all the fun.

I've learned that you are either the bill payer or the guy that gets sex. As soon as you are the safe, loving guy, sex is out the window. At least the good sex. Sure, if a guy spends the entire night focused on his wife's needs and never has his needs met during sex, he actually has sex... but it's all about her and none of the sex is about him. I have ex swinger friends, pastor friends and long time decent Christian friends... every guy I know sighs and agrees with me that the man is removed from the sex equation because we have decided as a society that sex is all about the woman.

I am fully open to change my opinions, but please include real life cases of men doing the right thing and his wife actually met his sex needs his way enough to be worth it. From what I see on this site(which I love) is that a man has to turn sex into this long protracted emotional scenario and then end up with lame sex. More emotional sex... I'm not saying anything is wrong with emotional sex. Not at all... but it's not fulfilling to any man I know. What I would hope to have happen is if I spend 4-5 hours being a great guy to my wife and meeting her needs for real, that she would reciprocate with some of that sex being wild and fulfilling to her man. Men play football and like MMA. To insist that every moment of sex is uber tender and loving is NOT the kind of sex a man is going to race home to have.

I'll be honest, it seems that this attitude is rather narcissistic. Spend 5 hours on me, spend money on me, then your reward is have sex only the way I like it(says the woman). Where is the love that says, hey, men and women have different needs and we BOTH meet BOTH needs? I think it specious logic verging on sophistry to say that being more athletic and wild in bed is bad or improper.

I can understand why your wife does not want to have sex with you. Here is the reason why:


Women need 2 things to desire sex: an emotional attachment to the man and the prospect of enjoyment. If they don't enjoy the act, they stop having sex with him. So if you want her to ever want to have sex with you, you will have to focus on pleasing her. Anything that is not mutually pleasing should be eliminated. It sounds from your description that she did a lot of sacrificing when having sex with you.

I would add that watching porn destroys the sex life in a marriage. It creates a contrast effect that makes it much harder to enjoy your sexual partner.

This article might help you understand: How to Overcome Sexual Aversion

The question of the ages: How can a husband receive the sex he needs in marriage?

Sir, I don't think there is any hope for your marriage because neither you or your wife care about your marriage!
There is no care and protection in your marriage.

I think the first step would be to stop participating in the swinging lifestyle.
is your wife willing to stop? Or has she fallen in love with one of her sex partners?

To be honest, your best thinking has destroyed your sex life and your marriage. You are the grossly obese man who is lecturing the thin people about weight loss. Just a suggestion: you might want to put aside your own- FAILED - ideas and listen to others who have what you want.

If you aren't here to listen, then you are just wasting our time and yours. Put a sock in it, dude.

It seems that simply having sex is assumed to be what meets a man's needs. I can tell you that we can have tender, emotional sex all day long and while that is not bad, it's not fulfilling in the least. I'm not joking when I say that I sort of understand how a woman can feel empty and used after sex. What is the point of having sex if I'm not even allowed in the room. I'm just there to fulfill her emotional needs and if we technically have intercourse, I am supposed to be automatically fulfilled. Not even close! Hey sex is sex, right? NOT.

I hope that Dr. Harley does not always assume that by erasing all traces of the kind of sex a man likes, which in return gets his wife naked more often, equates in any way to being more sexually fulfilled. We can have that kind of sex all day and I will walk away deeply unsatisfied.

In fact, you can pretty much guarantee that if I spend a night with a woman being all romantic I will feel deeply emotionally connected and enjoy it, but be sooooo out of the sex mood it's the last thing on my mind. The ACT of being warm and fuzzy is fantastic, but leads my libido as far from sex as I can get. It's been this way since the first time I have had sex. And no, there was pretty much zero porn or sexuality before my wife. One deeply regretted sexual encounter that had me feeling so guilty I didn't date again for a year. I was just a guy with guy feelings, desires and attitudes.

Is this site really saying that the best I can get is spend more time and energy to get the type of sex that my wife wants and I don't enjoy? That's really the best I can hope for? I can live without sex then, thanks.

Sir, are you reading anything that is posted to you?

Dave, it may interest you to know that Dr H doesn't counsel women to submit to male fantasies.

That is the fast track to misery.

If you learn how to give your partner more fulfilling sex rather than taking pleasure FROM her - you will see for yourself.

A woman enjoying sex is often an enjoyable thing for a man. Porno, violent and degrading fantasies are not the needs of a man, but boys. Boys who don't support, connect or give pleasure. Stop being such a boy and step up.

I really hear what everyone is saying. Porn and swinging are out of my life. I whole heartedly agree that the contrast effect is real and porn is disrespectful to her happiness so for those reasons I have made adjustments. I really think my pain and poor communication have been more of what I conveyed than what is really happening.

I do really appreciate the harsh words and I am listening completely.

If you will forgive me can I ask some clarifying questions?

1. If emotional attachment and a focus on pleasing her is required, where is the man in this equation. Is it really just all about the woman? I realize I am broken and deeply flawed, but is it really wrong for me to have some sexual preferences?

2. What's up with the grossly obese comment? I do not in any way require thinness nor did I intend to convey that. Being thin does not make a good lover. My wife is physically attractive. Was that just a punch in the gut to be mean? I probably deserve it.

3. Part of the problem is that my wife cannot adjust to anything. That has of course been devastating to my sexual desire for her, but it's not even about sex. She has ADD and things take her twice as long to do. Even if I try to be very nice and say that we need to be done shopping in time to make an appointment, that is a huge pain point for her. I can't change when the appointments are or other things that are outside of my control. From day one, if I do the dishes, which I do 80% of along with most of the housework on top of my job, she will reach over and shut the water off is a really angry way because she needs me to do it 100% her way. Never mind that I am doing the dishes without being asked almost every time they need done. We have a well, the water costs nothing. A few pennies for the pump running and hot water. But this happens with everything we engage in.

Anyway. I am deeply sorry for being so angry on here. If you can find it in your heart to help me see things differently, I am really willing to throw out pretty much everything I am doing and believe if it will work. I just hope that something of me is left in the end and it's not all about her. I don't think I can convey how opposite things work with my wife. The more things I do right, the more she takes. No reciprocation.

Example... She wants more time home alone so I work late. I'm sore and tired but I know she needs this. I get home to find out she stayed late at work instead of coming home when she found out I was working late. This has happened many times. The more I give the more is required and I can't keep up.

Is she still swinging?
Many women that get into swinging end up falling in love with a sex partner.
Is she involved with any men or women at this time?

BTW, I understand the issue with washing dishes.
My wife also had precise methods for doing everything, but ironically she was a horrible at keeping house and nothing ever got done!
I've had the water turned off while I was washing dishes too!

Also, I do not like violent sex. Athletic, yes. Trust me, in the beginning, I was not this worthless. I concur... I'm in a bad place and need to change. Trying hard...

But when I made sex all about her pleasure, it all went south. Far far less sex... and very quickly I was not even in the room for any other reason than to do her bidding.

But you know what, I'll try making it all about her again. I've done this several times before. Before the porn, before the swinging(which she did as well) and it did the opposite of what you said. I hope you can not only assume the worst about me but also see that I'm not dealing with a normal wife situation here. I can't describe how many things seem to work in reverse. Mathematically, I have had to get at least one thing accidentally right and seen at least one result you speak of. I'm the one who says we need counseling. I give her the garage and take the driveway, I tell her she is beautiful and stroke her hair. I am affectionate and snuggle, I clean, cook, scrub, mow, work double time... I buy her nice things then find socks and shorts for my birthday...

I almost always make her breakfast, clean the kitchen and deal with the second pot of coffee she takes to work. I heat her thermos, open the door for her so she doesn't need to take second trips to the car. I warm her car up and brush off all the snow. Many times I drive across town for my lunch break and clean the snow off her car when we get hit hard. I shovel a path to the door of her car. Man, I do stuff like this a lot because I want to give to her. She almost never has to deal with my laundry, dishes, dinner etc. I do almost all of it. I move faster at work so I can get home to get her coffee ready so she walks in to hot coffee. If I come home at lunch, I straighten up and prep dinner.

I don't want an award... I just want something to matter and for her to even do a few tiny things for me. Name a thing you assume she does for me and I'll bet she doesn't. So many people think we fit the normal 'wife takes care of husband like a child' and it's quite the opposite.

Please help. I am soooo willing to do more.

We would love to hear your wife's side of the story. It sounds very much as though she doesn't enjoy being with you. It would be very helpful to know what's going on from her point of view. Would she be willing to post here?

In sex, as with all the emotional needs, the need is to be met in such a way that both spouses are happy. Usually, the man has the higher need for sex because of the hormone testosterone, which creates a craving for sex. Many men would love to have oral sex, because the sensations are more intense. The biggest problem with this particular act is that it creates a contrast effect, making "regular" sex boring for the man.

Many wives do not want to perform oral sex, because it's not a very bonding experience for them. The way you want sex is making sex very unappealing for your wife. You don't have a need for oral sex, but you do have a need for sex.

Dr. Harley does indeed say that the person with the higher need for sex needs to make the experience very enjoyable for the person with the lower need. This goes for all the ENs. This means that sex is going to be all about making sure your wife is very happy with the experience. You can learn to be happy without oral sex, but she is unlikely to learn to like to perform it. This goes for most wives.

Your wife should not sacrifice to meet your desire for oral sex. Have you given up all sexual experiences other than your wife? No fantasy, no porn, no masturbation.

For most women, the biggest reason they make love with their husbands is because they enjoy the experience and they want to bond with him. If your wife lacks these two motivations, she's not going to want to make love with you at all. And if you keep pushing your way of wanting sex, it will push her further away.

And yeah, I've been having angry outbursts on here as well as in real life. Trust me, it has to end. I'm not going to put up with it from myself anymore.

No, she doesn't swing. We both don't. It's been 8 years(ish) since anything like that has happened.

I think she is still dealing with the fact that once I got into swinging, women fell in love with me easily. I was caring, attentive and when they actually saw me, I would fall for them. Not real love, but enough to be a threat to her. I found that I didn't want to swing at all. I just wanted a responsive lover.

Truth... and this is hard to admit. When I am treated well and someone cares, I actually prefer sensual sex. When it happened, I would immediately become very sensual. But there was no pain to trip over with the other woman, no harsh words. No one told me my checks weren't big enough. No one told me I was a fat [censored](yes, my wife said that)...

So I have to consider that my views on sex aren't even really my views. Thank you whoever you are for helping me see that. It sort of makes me want to try to find a painless situation where I can enjoy making love rather than erotic sex. I honestly forgot I like it because all I see is pain right now.

Angry outbursts are a HUGE love buster and they will push your wife away from you. Have you read up on all the love busters? Each one needs to be eliminated.

The comment about the grossly obese person was made as an analogy. ML used it to explain that you are here with your best thinking and in a very unhappy marriage trying to lecture and argue with people who have learned what a great marriage is. The comment wasn't about your preference for thin people. It's the same idea as an obese person trying to tell the slender healthy people how to be fit.

Are you overweight? You mentioned your wife calling you a fat (censored.)

Actually, I don't really care for oral sex. I never really did. It's ok. Actual sex feels a lot better for me and always has. In fact, I've gotten in deep trouble for saying I don't care much for oral sex... which is why I asked for it to be a little more aggressive. Honestly, I was just trying to do that thing where you ask for a micro adjustment in bed. The kind of silly thing I would think you wouldn't even register.

Over the last few days, I have been asking for small innocuous adjustments to see if it's just about asking for ANY adjustment. So far, any request is met with harshness. We are talking about little things like, can the tv be turned down a little. It wasn't that, but that is an example.

I never really cared for oral sex. Not from day one. It's something she does and if I say it's not really my thing I'll get in trouble.

Here is something that might help you understand my life. When we got married, my wife had lied about not having a drivers licence. It took years and many HUGE fights to get her to get one. I would say, lets go for a drive and prep you for the test and she would explode. I'm not talking about an angry outburst, I'm talking about blood shot eyes and spit flying out as she screamed at the top of her lungs. You were NOT going to get her to do something she didnt want to do. Period!

Oddly, she has rewritten history on this and can't even really remember the pain she put me through on this. Like the affair she had... her comments are 'that was nothing' and insists my pain is not justified.

Yes I am fat. I am very athletic as well as my job requires a massive amount of physical effort. I finish drywall and have done other jobs that you would think are more effort but this somehow beats me up and keeps me in shape.

I'm embarrassed to tell you I do drywall. My wife has said on many occasions that this embarrasses her and that I am nothing. What kind of 50 year old man is it that still does drywall she has said.

Of course, she denies having said it. I think she forgets what she says when she gets that angry.

Correction... 48.5 years old.

Also, we are both overweight.

Oh, good, I get it. I just really need to find something that works. I'm really having a hard time taking the painful hits and keeping my love busters down. That is in no way an excuse. But man it's hard.

I somehow have to swallow the pain, take the hits and realize that it's entirely possible that I may find a way to do the right thing again and it have no effect. I just need to do it and let the rest fall where it does. That hurts just thinking about it. but who said it's not supposed to be all pain?

Is it wrong to also need her love busters to end?

I have to get off the Internet for now, but I'll close with this:

Any love bank deposits you make are going to be completely erased by committing love busters. While it takes a lot of love bank deposits to reach the romantic love threshold, it takes very few love busters to destroy love.

I don't understand what you mean by opening your discussion saying you want oral sex and then later on stating you don't really enjoy it.

I don't understand what you mean when you say you are fat but also have a job that keeps you in shape.

You and your wife both have ENs and they appear not be met by either of you. You both also have a lot of love busters. The first thing you will have to do is to eliminate all your love busters.

Of course it's not wrong for you to want your wife to stop love busting. But she's not here; you are. It takes two people to create a great marriage, but you can start by eliminating your love busters. Have you read through all the articles and basic concepts on this site? Also, do you listen to the radio show? These would both be a great start.

When I read the love busters I had a jolt of realization as to how far I have fallen down the traps of poor behavior. I had deep empathy for my wife and saw how my demands and threats that had evolved over the years were killing her love. I started with telling her I am sorry and that I see them for what they are and that they need to end now.

She asked what love busters she was doing and I said that independent behavior was killing me on the inside. The next hour was her correcting me on how she is not doing that.

Her lovebusters will end if you follow this programme

More importantly, it seems to me that you never recovered from your wife's affair and that this has left you with a long term aversion. You were sent a link about overcoming sexual aversion. Dr Harley has a fabulous formula which has worked for lots of posters but it is written for females as this more commonly happens to women.

You will have to 'translate' the thinking into male issues, it is the same concept and it works. It requires a lot of effort on your part but is truly worthwhile.

Do you have any contact with any of the former sex partners?
Does your wife?
Since she stays out late, etc she may be having an affair.
You should start snooping

Hey thanks. I hope you get back on later. I am all ears and am willing to work hard to change.

Corrections... Oral sex was happening and THEN I asked for an adjustment. I did not say I hate it, but it's ok. It's rarely something I directly request as it's not that great for me. But IF... if you(speaking to wife) are going to give me oral, can you do it a little faster and harder? I was asking for a very small adjustment to the technique. To which she replied, 'I don't enjoy it that way'.

As far as being fat and fit, that's actually a thing. You would look at me and quickly say, that guy is built and has a lot of muscle but you would also say I carry extra fat. Like, if I simply lost fat, I'd look more like a body builder than a thin guy. Im not good looking so I'm not trying to say that I'm all that and a bag of chips... just trying to make what I said earlier clear.

You should not be embarressed of your work.
One of my favorite quotes from Martin Luther King Jr. was that if a man is a street sweeper, let him have so much pride in his work that he sweeps as though he owns the street!

She's not having an affair and after the last one, I doubt it would phase me much. I'm more concerned with the future than even what's happening now. Sex is just sex. If she is having an affair, I can get past that easily if she is willing to adjust.

ZERO contact with old sex partners. No way shape or form.

This also tells us that you are in the habit of pushing your agenda onto your wife and trying to force her to do things YOU WANT. That is another reason why your marriage is in this poor shape. I know you posted this as an example of her angry outbursts, which are bad, but it is also an example of your selfish demands.

That is the correct response. She should only have sex in the way she enjoys or she will develop aversions. [oh wait, she has!]

What kind of job would make her proud? Have you thought about changing careers at your age? Drywalling is very physically demanding and you getting to an age where it will have detrimental effects on your body.

Okay, its good that you have no contact but understand that you can't work on your marriage if there is any affair going on.

Have you read any of Dr. Harley's books?
One book you should read is His Needs, Her Needs.
I think you can even get it on audio book if you prefer.

I would order that book ASAP

So I've been considering your words. I'm in agreement but shouldn't this go both ways? I'm looking back at our sex life before swinging and porn and there was a period of about 10 years where she might have initiated a half a dozen times. On top of that, when we did have sex, I was very attentive. A lot of affection, kissing etc. She would orgasm sometimes in excess of 50 times. I learned to watch her pupils, breathing, skin tension, muscle tension etc. I knew exactly what part of her wrist when caressed gently made her melt. I did these things well and often. But there was no reciprocation. When asked why she doesn't initiate, she replied 'why should I?'. Basically, she was a recipient sexually and often times did nothing for me sexually. If you ask her what i like sexually, she will recite back my overt sexual requests, but she couldn't tell you the first thing about what little detail makes me 'melt'. She's oblivious.

I've been married for 29.5 years. There was an entire decade where sex pretty much revolved around her needs. At what point do I call bologna on it creating a reciprocal effect. Maybe you think that simply making genital contact is what I am satisfied by. I'm not sure how a woman is allowed to classify sex worth having from sex not worth having but a man is not.

When you consider these things, know that many aspect of our personalities are gender inverted. I prefer to cook and my wife will zone out watching football. So, perhaps our sexual needs are inverted and that should be considered. I'm pretty sure I'm the female voice here saying it's not satisfying and not meeting my emotional needs. She is the one who can 'just get off' by sex. I'm the one who needs it to be more involved. She can say 'wanna have sex' then have a quick orgasm then jump up and ignore me. haha... that even makes me laugh when I type it knowing how inverted we are. She can fall asleep and I want to yabber away afterward.

So, maybe you need to see me as the one with the needs of a typical woman and she is the typical guy. I'm fairly certain that if you asked diagnostic questions, you would find this to be oddly true.

The one gender truth that remains is that my sex drive is higher.

I've read the book a few times. My wife never addresses our relationship nor attempts to improve it. I am the one that has to beg for counseling. In soooo many aspects, we are gender inverted. She even repairs the vacuum better than I can. I cook much better. Although I still have to do all the guy jobs even though I do most of the womans jobs as well.

When I said my wife says she doesn't need rough sex, firstly, I really meant athletic sex. Nothing abusive or even playfully abusive. During swinging I couldn't even smack the but of another woman if she begged me to. I misspoke about 'rough'... I truly meant athletic.

Also, in telling you that she doesn't NEEEEED rough sex, I was trying to convey that it doesn't matter what I ask for in bed. She will fight it.

I have a higher sex drive so I asked if we could sort of make a schedule so that both our needs are met. I can really reduce the amount of sex she feels pressured to do and with her A.D.D. it helps her keep it in her memory. I asked her to pick any day/days that would work for her and said I didn't care what she picked I just needed to count on her to follow through this time. If it was once a month, so be it, but don't promise and then space me out again.
She picked Tuesday and Thursday. I think there was some back and forth but she assured me those two nights were very ok in her book. Over the next 4 months, she only approached sex on off days except once. We have schedules and my work is very physical so we need to be a little planned in our sex. But simply having those days spoken assured that she would NOT pick those days for sex.

About a year prior, I asked if because her schedule was more open on Saturdays, if we could just try to have sex that day if nothing else. It really helps me by looking forward to it since she is absent from any build up to sex. She just gets naked, does it and then gets up and does crafts or something. It's always been that way unless she falls asleep right away.

For the next several months, she would be ok with sex any day BUT saturday. Mind you, she was 100% in agreement with it. If I ask for a date night, whatever night we pick, suddenly that will be the night she can't. You can roll dice and chose, and you can be sure she will fight against it every time. No matter the topic, date or time.

This fighting everything, not just sex is what I was trying to convey when I said she didn't NEEEEED rough sex.

codrdave - To me it sounds like you and your wife have been having a tough time since you got married. Lots of love bank withdrawals due to many mistakes made. Although you've come here to talk about your sex life, I think you'll need to start from square one. You have to eliminate Love Busters first. Then you can focus on fulfilling emotional needs.

If your wife is unwilling to come here or work on the MB program (as you've indicated), you will simply have to focus on "cleaning up your side of the street." To "sort of" quote Ghandi, "be the change you want to see in your relationship." This is going to be very very difficult. You will feel alone in this endeavor and it will take time for your wife to begin noticing the changes in you and acting differently herself. The goal is at some point for you to have a true heart to heart conversation with her about how much you love her and how much you want to have a truly loving marriage and revisit doing MB together.

You have a long road in front of you and a lot to re-learn and bad habits to kill. Luckily you'll have the support of this forum.

Read this. Anger Management 101

Here I am!

First thing I think you need to do is withdraw from all the sexually deviant behavior and porn and stuff. There's no way you can make a good decision when you are still fogged out on it.

There are a bazillion ways to have sex. You will enjoy a gazillion of them and she will enjoy a zillion. There's a million ways that are in both the gazillion and the zillion. You'll both enjoy those. Stick to those.

First eliminate all sources of sexual experiences other than your wife.

But she won't fight what she enjoys and likes. My point is that she was expressing her displeasure which is why she avoids sex. It sounds like she has a long history of agreeing to sex "dates" to just get you off her back and not necessarily because she WANTS to do that. What we can do is to help her desire sex with you.

You have the right idea in setting up "dates" however, women don't enjoy a date just to have sex. YUCK. WE want to be romanced and warmed up. Otherwise we just feel used. This is why it is important to schedule REAL DATES that end in sex, not dates that are only SEX. That is a complete turn off for most women.

Once I again, women need two things to desire sex: an emotional attachment to the man and the prospect of enjoyment. If you aren't spending 15+ hours per week meeting her intimate emotional needs, she won't feel any attachment and sex will just be an unpleasant DUTY. If she has to endure sexual acts she does't enjoy, she won't want to have sex either. That is why it is important to not ask her to do anything she doesn't enjoy.

You are unnecessarily complicating the issue. She has fallen out of love because of love busters, a practice of sacrifice, fighting and a lack of undivided attention time. Once that is fixed, she will desire sex with you.


And Markos is correct, you need to eliminate the porn.

This is your problem - not sex. You make selfish demands. She should NOT do anything - I mean anything - that she does not want to do.

Not in the bedroom. Not anywhere. Stop this.

She also needs to quit the angry outbursts.

Your solution is to ignore the relationship and have sex with her in a disconnected way. You can do this thanks to the magic of testosterone.

She can't. You have to fix the relationship first.

Where did you get the idea it was a two way street?

I wouldn't even date anyone with this attitude. You have the testosterone - you are the one with the need. You need to make the magic happen.

If a woman has a need for conversation, it is on her to become a good conversationalist. Not to force initiation and unenthusiastic topics on her husband.

Step up.

As far as dates are concerned, we do regular dates with ZERO sex, sexuality or pressure for sex. What I was referring to is scheduled sex which nearly every counselor I've been to and read recommends. Not a 'date' but scheduled nights for sex. In our case, this is mostly because she is A.D.D. and even when I do everything right, she simply zones it out. She even admits that she wanted sex, but just did the A.D.D. thing and spaced it out. This is what she tells the counselor anyway.

I already do the majority of things everyone is talking about here. You have no idea how often I send her off to her craft room and do the whole dinner plus cleanup. Don't assume she is doing it most of the time. It's either me, or she will help a little.

I will say one thing that I guess I have a problem with and don't know what to do. Maybe it's because I have had so many times that I did the candles, dinner and entire romantic evening and nadda. It's not that I expected sex... I didn't do it FOR sex nor did I say, wow, if I do this I'm getting some tonight. She just isn't aware or care. Not that long ago, I asked if we could go out on a Friday night date. No sex, just a romantic date. I had a fancy dinner(Im a good cook) candles, music she likes etc... 2 hours after she said she would be home I finally called to ask what was up. She flipped out and said 'So I can't even spend time with my niece?!?'. This isn't me being controlling, this is her A.D.D. She agreed to a casual request for a date night... but this happens a LOT. I will go to pick her up from work as her car was in the shop and wait for 90 minutes. Finally calling all the phones she could be at. Then 2 hrs in I go home. A few hours later she is dropped off by friends as if nothing happened. The real kicker was that we had an appointment with the bank that night for our refinance. She deliberately planned it this way because I had to pick her up anyway. How would you feel if this sort of thing happened all the time.

On vacation, she just leaves me for days and goes out with her mom, who is in Florida at the time for their winter retirement place. She has the rental car and I'm supposed to just sit there? You tell me if you would be ok with that?

So now, you can pretty much turn my libido off with romance. I can be a raging teenager and as soon as you get romantic I'm out of the mood. I'd have to take viagra and fake it.

A lot of that might also be the pain I have toward her. Again, people assume I'm the typical guy who doesn't help out around the house, barely any affection and I just take sex. This is so not the case. Yeah, after 4 weeks of no sex, I'm laying on the pressure pretty heavy. Her A.D.D. gets her so over committed to things and then she couldn't tell you a thing about me. She did a wedding while traveling for work a lot. My niece heaped nearly all of the burden of the wedding on my wife including making hundreds of fancy invitations by hand, place settings... probably a couple thousand hours of work. between travel and this, NO ONE could have been romantic. She leaves no time. She doesn't ask me if anything she does will hurt us, nor does she care. And... she will do things like this back to back. Then she is beyond crabby. Mind you, I'm doing ALL the housework, anything the kids need, all of my own work like the yard, fixing, etc. She just abandons me for weeks and weeks then shows back up and wonders why I'm exhausted while she extended her trip to hang out with cousins. Romance? Last thing on my mind.

"As far as dates are concerned, we do regular dates with ZERO sex, sexuality or pressure for sex. What I was referring to is scheduled sex which nearly every counselor I've been to and read recommends. Not a 'date' but scheduled nights for sex. In our case, this is mostly because she is A.D.D. and even when I do everything right, she simply zones it out. She even admits that she wanted sex, but just did the A.D.D. thing and spaced it out. This is what she tells the counselor anyway. "

That would be revolting for a woman to just put out on schedule. This advice is a good reason why marriage counselors have an 84% failure rate. Women need to feel an emotional attachment in order to desire sex, and that can only be achieved if you are spending 15-20 hours meeting her needs on DATES before sex. The way to prime the pump is go out on dates and schedule sex at the end of the dates. The woman feels close to the man after 3-4 hours of affection, etc and feels more inclined to have sex.

"I already do the majority of things everyone is talking about here. You have no idea how often I send her off to her craft room and do the whole dinner plus cleanup. Don't assume she is doing it most of the time. It's either me, or she will help a little."

That is not going to do a darn thing to make her feel closer to you though. It might be nice but doesn't create romantic love. Dr Harley's approach is completely different from what you have been taught by other "counselors." And the outcome is completely different too.

**edit**

Please keep your posts helpful to the thread starter. If you can help him with MB concepts, feel free to post. If not, refrain from posting.

No one thinks you aren't trying - but your efforts are so woefully misdirected.

Cleaning up the house and childcare is lovely of you but it won't do anything for her libido at all. Zip.

Take the sex dates - yeah lots of counsellors recommend it. Their success rate also sucks. Higher rate of divorce amongst counsellors than the general population.

Dr H's plan in comparison is a great success and it is not hard to see why.

Try and compare it to something you DON'T have a need for. Like the guy in my earlier example who has no high need for conversation. The worst thing his wife could do is schedule 'conversation time'. Time when he has to just suck it up and do it.

Dr H would instead get his wife to consider what he enjoys doing, to have a date bonding over that activity and perhaps talking it over afterwards.

You can see how very much MORE important this approach is for sex when that lack of enthusiasm leads to aversions.

See 'getting it done' is not your goal. Enthusiasm is. Scheduling is not your problem. Getting that electricity and spine tingling sex is your problem.



A woman bonded, in love, passionate and longing for her husband's touch at the end of a romantic night doesn't need any attention span. It's not algebra.

A woman on a sex date needs it to be sure - but she also needs to just not do that.

Your wife also has a slight habit of dishonesty as per her driving license. It is not the ADD putting her off. It's the relationship.



Then stop it. Do UA time. Sort the relationship out.



A lot of her behaviour is unacceptable - but her IB, AOs and SDs would end if you could sell her on the programme.

Again - sort the relationship out.



4 weeks!!!! After years of porn and swinging and unenthusiastic sex leading to aversions? It is going to take a LOT longer than that to get her to a place of genuine enthusiasm. NO PRESSURE is required when genuine enthusiasm is present. If you act before genuine enthusiasm arrives - you've just reverted back to day one.




Dave if you really had a sexual aversion - you wouldn't want sex in any situation.

You are not averse to sex with her - you are simply emotionally withdrawn from your wife and sticking your head in the sand about the many, many problems. Do those problems turn you off? Yeah. But deal.

Your problem is the ability to pathalogically ignore relationship problems until you become miserable.

You can't keep allowing her to swan off for days at a time, to submit to sex she doesn't want, to hit you with anger.

Turning to porn and swinging was just your first way of ignoring the relationship. Doesn't work does it? You can't go to a fast food restaurant to get cooking skills. You just can't.

Stop looking for short cuts to sex and really sort the relationship out. Put on your big boy pants and get ready for a really long haul.

The rest will follow.

This is because she is checked out. She has fallen out of love so she would rather do ANYTHING to be around you. But that can change if you clean up your love busters, stop pressuring her for sex, and restore the romantic love to your marriage.


She would rather be with anyone other than you. But we already know this.



We understand completely. She has checked out. Now, do you want us to help you get her checked BACK IN?

**edit**

Moderators note: if you have an issue with moderator actions, please email me directly rather than disrupting this thread.

Sir, here are some videos you can watch which may help:

Wow, really good stuff here. I'll be dead honest. I can see the need for getting her emotionally in the mood as far as what a woman needs. But in all honesty, I get left holding so much of the weight of our lives that I don't have that energy left. I just watch a great Christian movie called 'Moms night out' where the woman was so overly burdened she was snapping. In our house, that is reversed. I do the man stuff and most of the woman stuff. Now you are telling me I need to do more?! Not gonna happen. If you tell me I won't get sex if I don't do more, I'm really ok with that. On the flip side, I can begin to remove my love busters. My wife does not have a track record of reciprocity EVER... so I guess we will just play this out and see if me feeding the love bank and not making love buster withdrawals does anything. So far, nadda ever.

I have one other issue with all of this and that is about the inequity of sex. When does SHE spend hours getting me in the mood for sex? When does she do the equivalent of pouring into me and meeting my sexual needs? It sounds like this is all one sided. That I am supposed to be happy that she 'let' me have sex after I earned it. When does she earn it?

This isn't about being combative on here. I'm really hoping someone tells me that if I do all of this, she will reciprocate but I'm not getting that message.

When I was swinging, I found women who go all out on making sex good for me. That's just their personality... to give back and reciprocate. Simply because they were swingers does not negate the fact that they didn't feel sex was 100% about them.

I really hope someone makes sense in that sex isn't just about meeting her emotional needs THEN I might, just maybe have sex. If that is really the case, I'm out... no more women in my life.

If, however, sex is truly mutual, then she should be taking 4-5 hours to meet my needs for sex as well. Otherwise, sure, if you never get what you want and always give, the other person will be happy. Well, I hate sex right now. I hated it before porn and swinging. It sucked. She put no effort into it. I had to do all this work for a lame duck. Sorry, I am having a hard time conceptualizing what it is that happens after I do what you say i should.

Let me get this straight... I spend hours meeting her emotional needs and put somewhere in the neighborhood of 20-1 ratio into this to 'maybe' have sex? And then the sex is horrible because it's all about her and none of what I like is in the picture? I don't like to kiss... never did. It's not gross or wrong, just not me... so lets say that I make out with her because this makes her feel good and she wants it - just as an example... what does she do for me? Lay there? Allow me to use her for sex at that point? What part of this has me anywhere in it?

Please don't knee jerk react to my misgivings. I need someone to actually spell out what one of these nights of emotional need meeting is supposed to play out like.

Maybe if you roll played my part. Tell me what I theoretically would do and how I'd do it then what would that result be specifically. Not 'you get sex'. Tell me what it's really like.

Here is what I see happening. I spend a night totally 100% focused on her needs. I make sure she feels all the things I am being told she needs to feel for sex(assume I got it right). At the end of that, I am not supposed to expect sex. If it's been weeks, tough crud for me... all that matters is her needs. Then when we have sex, it's really terrible sex. The more my wife gets her needs met, the more she thinks I only like what she likes. Honestly, if you told me I can have ultra sensual sex or no sex, I'd pick no sex unless there were 50% of the times where I was the focus just like I did for her in the above scenario. If you are telling me, sex is that one sides, I'll get a dog, move out and at least not be taken advantage of. I thought I was part of this and not just a tool used for her pleasure alone.

Incidentally, Of all the women I have slept with, most aren't as selfish in bed. And I disagree... non sensual sex is not wrong... it's just a different style.

You know what... I guess the book was supposed to be called, 'Her needs, Her needs'.

I'm not seeing a different title. Someone please, please, please SHOW me where my needs are being met. 20-1 ratio is not equitable.

My wife puts no effort into me. She would NEVER put 4-5 hours into earning her needs being met.

I'm so depressed at all of this. If this is really the case, then what's the point?

Whew... not sure how to cope with this level of inequity. This will take some time to swallow let alone want to have sex with a woman who requires such inequity.

Ladies. What if the tables were turned? What if you had to have sex for 4-5 hours and if you did one little thing wrong to ruin my mood, you couldn't get me to meet your emotional need. I'd bet any money, you would run for the hills.

Either my wife puts hour for hour the effort into sex that I do and hour for hour the effort I put into emotional needs, then I'm ok ending it. I'm not here to be used.

Jedi Knight... You seem to have an even view of this. Any chance you can show me where I fit into this? I'm pretty close to swearing off women.

Have you read all the Basic Concepts on this site? Have you read through both books, "His Needs, Her Needs" and "Love Busters?"

Nothing in a passionate, romantic, mutually fulfilling marriage is one-sided; it's about both spouses being very happy in every decision, with each EN.

The fact that you both got into swinging and affairs in your marriage, even though those marriage-wrecking behaviors have now ended, shows what a lack of care you both experienced in your relationship. Also, the contrast effect continues to this day. You are comparing what you got in swinging with marriage. Most wives simply will not engage in sex they don't enjoy, because they know it's not sustainable.

The first thing any spouse who wants a great marriage must do is to end all the love busters. It won't matter what a great husband you think you are by doing household chores or anything else you do for your wife if you also have angry outbursts, make selfish demands, or are judgmental of her.

So first, read all the articles and Basic Concepts
Next, read through the HNHN and LB books.
Meanwhile, start listening to the free radio show.

It takes two to create a great marriage, but you can prime the pump. Stop complaining about all she is doing and not doing and start working on learning what it will take to create a great marriage.

I know Christian women who are sex machines and don't require all this bologna of uber emotional taking at such an inequitable level.

I just want a woman who thinks sex is fun and good for just being sex. I found women like that outside of the church in spades. They weren't selfish... they felt it was supposed to be equitable. I only need one to be even with...

Here's a really good thread about relationships based on the book Dr. Harley wrote called "Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders." Even though my H and I have been married for over 34 years, we still found it very helpful and enlightening.

Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders

But MOST women like to make love because they feel bonded to their husbands, NOT because they are "sex machines." Being Christian has nothing to do with it.

This is one of the (many) problems with swinging.

I've read the book and watched a lot of videos. I read a lot.

Do you plan to incorporate any of your learning into your behavior?

Without being inappropriate, what do you do to MEET your husbands sexual needs. I'm not talking about what he earned... what do you decide to do simply because you love him and he needs it?

I'm going to take a break from this topic to cool off... I'll read anything you all have to say. I sooo appreciate the candor. I really like being told I'm off my rocker. I can't say I swallow it, but I am really considering all of these points and am willing to realize I am dead wrong and need to change. I'm not there yet on the sex issue. But I will keep your words in my heart as I process.

The first thing to understand is that sex *IS* an emotional issue for women. So eliminating that part makes sex no more interesting than 2 hawgs going at each other in the hawg pen. YUCK I think sex is fun and exciting BECAUSE I am emotionally attached to my husband. I have been in a marriage where I was not in love with my husband and I could not stand for him to TOUCH ME.

So, if you want a woman to enjoy sex with you, you have to make sure she is in love with you. Otherwise it is about as attractive as 2 hawgs going at it.

I meet all his most important ENs, including that of SF, because he has created an incredibly loving and caring environment for me. I am very much in love with my H, after 30 years of NOT being in love, and I'm in love with him because of the care he shows for me and because he meets my ENs and has eliminated his love busters.

MB is about "I will meet your needs AND you will meet my needs."

I do what makes me happy AND also makes him happy simultaneously. He is very happy in this regard and often tells me so. I don't do anything in SF that I don't enjoy, because I want SF to be enjoyable for me AND for my H. As much as I am in love with my H, if he were to ask me for anything I didn't want to do (because I don't also enjoy it) then I would not do it.

I am not reading the rest of your overly long post because it is not relevant to the issue. Your best thinking has not helped you one bit, after all, so I know it contains no wisdom.

But I did want to address the first paragraph. You are working HARD but not SMART. You are spinnign your wheels following PLan Dave and it has got you NOWHERE.

Like I was told once in AA, "take the cotton out of your ears and put it in your mouth."

Blogging about your - FAILED - methods are a waste of your time and ours. If you want your marriage to improve, you need to STOP TALKING AND LISTEN.

I kinda said that in my last post. I'm not sure I agree with you 100%, but that might just take time.

I'm sorry for going on and on... but it seems everyone assumes what is close to the opposite of our situation so I felt that detail was nec.

I am going to stop posting and I am watching the videos plus rereading the book. To be honest, If this is a one sided endeavor again, I can't sustain that again.

I think you will find the videos helpful

A great marriage is not one-sided, although you might have to be the one to start the work of eliminating your love busters. A love buster, even "small" ones, will wipe out any love bank deposits, so make sure you eliminate those first.

We don't assume anything incorrectly. YOU DO.

Have you written Dr. Harley?

See sex is very important to me and it is in my top three needs.

When I hear you talking about how you want her to see it as 'just sex' and 'athletic' - my heart just aches with pity for the boring sex your poor wife is receiving.

A female body is capable of so much more pleasure than a mans. Actually it is more her brains and emotions. If she is subjected to dull sex, where it never gets above being about the body, she is going to be like a bright kid in the dummy class. Turned off.

Her sexual being is capable of hitting great heights multiple times. She is a ferrari to your pedestrian attitude towards sex.

Honestly you are talking about porno level sex. Two blank eyed idiots rutting away with no idea of what real pleasure is.

A woman's motor is so much more advanced. She needs a pilot who understands a warm up period is required. How to guide her towards heaven. How she needs to come back to earth in the arms of a man who loves her (and who was able to travel along side her!).

Women who swing. Frankly they are idiots. They know how to please men and ooh and ahh but they've never even gone past ten miles an hour in their own mind.

I know these women. Some of them do this silly thing in mongomous relationships. They talk endlessly about lingerie and technique like sex is some kind of job they want to be good at.

One woman I know is developing her first sexual aversion. She gets bored during sex and her mind drifts off. But she is too scared to do things the proper way. To insist she is sexually cared for as a woman should be.

Sad. Boring. Not for me.

An athletic gym class with no pants? I'd just call a divorce lawyer and find a man who knows what's what.

Porno users and swingers need NOT apply.

One of your classics Indie!

Agree with this. It makes me want to gag. It is clear he doesn't understand that sex is an EMOTIONAL ISSUE for women. Just putting out to some guy is a complete turn off. That makes it no more significant than 2 hawgs getting it on in the pig pen.

One misunderstanding I'd really like to clear up Dave is that NEITHER of you should be 'putting out'

Just as she should be enthusiastic about every action - so should you.

If candlelight dinners are hard work for you - don't do it. Do something you enjoy. Both of you.

If you don't like kissing find a physical mood setter that works just as well. One you both like.

Once you stop watching/believing the bunch of frauds known as swinger women and porn actresses you will start to see there are other options. Real ones! But just because your wife stops being a sex slave doesn't mean you have to become a romance slave. Marriage is supposed to be FUN!

You don't have to do a thing if you don't want to. Accept faker women as the real deal and abandon marriage. Jump from one short term thing to the next. Who cares if those temporary women get aversions from that and you are getting older?

Or maybe you do and fun dates with your wife where you fall into bed afterwards crazy with passion is not the worst idea in the world.

OK, I watched a ton of the videos and I have to say, not all of the advice here is in line with Dr. Harley. For instance, for a woman to WANT sex it has to be pleasurable and meet her needs, but in no way does Dr. Harley insinuate that we have a choice in meeting our spouses needs. Nor does he say we can hold needs ransom until our own needs are met.

I haven't found a direct Dr. Harley quote or writing on the topic of different sexual styles. Either sensual sex is considered the only 'morally correct' style of sex or no one is accounting for women with more of a wild sense of sexual style.

Anyone have a link to where Dr. Harley addresses this? If he hasn't, I hope he does, because the group of guys I hang with(most of whom are Christian) all agree that their style in no way matches their wife except the guy who's wife is more wild than he is. This difference makes it so the men don't want sex and their wives are begging for it. Yeah, that happens I guess...

I'd have to have some very specific scripture before I believed that tender, sensual sex is 'correct' and wild sex is 'wrong'. Otherwise, it's a matter of preference and preferences should be compromised.

Dr Harley always says we have a choice in meeting our spouses needs. I can't imagine how you missed that. Even so, if someone is giving you contradictory advice to Dr Harley's please hit "notify" and inform the moderators so they can remove that post and perhaps ban that person. It is against TOS to give advice that is not correct.

Dr Harley only defines sex as enjoyable or not enjoyable. It must be enjoyable and pleasant to BOTH. "Wild" or "sensual" would be subjective terms that are not relevant.

What does scripture have to do it? Or right and wrong? For heaven's sake sex is supposed to be fun.

I'm not a practising Christian myself but I doubt anyone takes the bible into the bedroom.

In MB, as long as sex is exclusive and both partners are enthusiastic about what they are doing then ANY style goes. Whatever the couple jointly want to do is fine.

MB is about creating a passionate and romantic marriage.

Do you think passion and romance can be built up and increased over decades of life together when 'preferences are compromised'?

Of course not. You are looking for ENTHUSIASM. Win-win solutions. Stuff that is so great it gets TWO votes. A male and female one.

You know...... Fun?

If your wife doesn't like something - not good enough. Toss it and find something else. If you don't like something - ditto.

A coat that only fits half of you is not well made!


It's the policy of joint agreement. Never do ANYTHING without joint enthusiasm.

We should meet our spouses needs - but it must be done in a way both sides are truly happy about.



It is extremely sad that so many people have no idea how to find the many things out that they actually have in common.

People suffer from a mass delusion that there are only two options to every dilemma. His way and her way. There are actually billions of ways. Markos has already explained that once you get out of 'two option' 'black and white' thinking you will find common ground.

Far from it. MB is the only programme which encourages women to enjoy sex and respects them as sexual beings. Other programmes treat sex like a dull chore that wome 'have' to do.

As do you. No one will be 'holding needs to ransom' if it is made FUN for them. F.U.N.

All this prim talk about your eing right and your needs being owed to you is a buzz kill. Of course you want a varied, frequent and passionate love life - who doesn't? But sticking doggedly to 'your' version just because some other women FAKED enthusiasm for 'your' style won't get you anywhere.

Unfair and unrealistic contrasts with 'yes men' women who are pros at faking have actually made you think you know 'the' style to adopt. You don't. Nor does your wife - you need to PoJA one together.

COUPLES make styles - not individuals.

Also, comparison with 'wild' faker pros will just make your wife run away more often than she already does. Nobody likes that. It's not cool.

Fun. Three letter word. Not rocket science.

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