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Have you read any of Dr. Harley's books?
One book you should read is His Needs, Her Needs.
I think you can even get it on audio book if you prefer.

I would order that book ASAP

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So I've been considering your words. I'm in agreement but shouldn't this go both ways? I'm looking back at our sex life before swinging and porn and there was a period of about 10 years where she might have initiated a half a dozen times. On top of that, when we did have sex, I was very attentive. A lot of affection, kissing etc. She would orgasm sometimes in excess of 50 times. I learned to watch her pupils, breathing, skin tension, muscle tension etc. I knew exactly what part of her wrist when caressed gently made her melt. I did these things well and often. But there was no reciprocation. When asked why she doesn't initiate, she replied 'why should I?'. Basically, she was a recipient sexually and often times did nothing for me sexually. If you ask her what i like sexually, she will recite back my overt sexual requests, but she couldn't tell you the first thing about what little detail makes me 'melt'. She's oblivious.

I've been married for 29.5 years. There was an entire decade where sex pretty much revolved around her needs. At what point do I call bologna on it creating a reciprocal effect. Maybe you think that simply making genital contact is what I am satisfied by. I'm not sure how a woman is allowed to classify sex worth having from sex not worth having but a man is not.

When you consider these things, know that many aspect of our personalities are gender inverted. I prefer to cook and my wife will zone out watching football. So, perhaps our sexual needs are inverted and that should be considered. I'm pretty sure I'm the female voice here saying it's not satisfying and not meeting my emotional needs. She is the one who can 'just get off' by sex. I'm the one who needs it to be more involved. She can say 'wanna have sex' then have a quick orgasm then jump up and ignore me. haha... that even makes me laugh when I type it knowing how inverted we are. She can fall asleep and I want to yabber away afterward.

So, maybe you need to see me as the one with the needs of a typical woman and she is the typical guy. I'm fairly certain that if you asked diagnostic questions, you would find this to be oddly true.

The one gender truth that remains is that my sex drive is higher.

Last edited by codrdave; 09/16/14 02:06 PM.
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I've read the book a few times. My wife never addresses our relationship nor attempts to improve it. I am the one that has to beg for counseling. In soooo many aspects, we are gender inverted. She even repairs the vacuum better than I can. I cook much better. Although I still have to do all the guy jobs even though I do most of the womans jobs as well.

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When I said my wife says she doesn't need rough sex, firstly, I really meant athletic sex. Nothing abusive or even playfully abusive. During swinging I couldn't even smack the but of another woman if she begged me to. I misspoke about 'rough'... I truly meant athletic.

Also, in telling you that she doesn't NEEEEED rough sex, I was trying to convey that it doesn't matter what I ask for in bed. She will fight it.

I have a higher sex drive so I asked if we could sort of make a schedule so that both our needs are met. I can really reduce the amount of sex she feels pressured to do and with her A.D.D. it helps her keep it in her memory. I asked her to pick any day/days that would work for her and said I didn't care what she picked I just needed to count on her to follow through this time. If it was once a month, so be it, but don't promise and then space me out again.
She picked Tuesday and Thursday. I think there was some back and forth but she assured me those two nights were very ok in her book. Over the next 4 months, she only approached sex on off days except once. We have schedules and my work is very physical so we need to be a little planned in our sex. But simply having those days spoken assured that she would NOT pick those days for sex.

About a year prior, I asked if because her schedule was more open on Saturdays, if we could just try to have sex that day if nothing else. It really helps me by looking forward to it since she is absent from any build up to sex. She just gets naked, does it and then gets up and does crafts or something. It's always been that way unless she falls asleep right away.

For the next several months, she would be ok with sex any day BUT saturday. Mind you, she was 100% in agreement with it. If I ask for a date night, whatever night we pick, suddenly that will be the night she can't. You can roll dice and chose, and you can be sure she will fight against it every time. No matter the topic, date or time.

This fighting everything, not just sex is what I was trying to convey when I said she didn't NEEEEED rough sex.


Last edited by codrdave; 09/16/14 02:23 PM.
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codrdave - To me it sounds like you and your wife have been having a tough time since you got married. Lots of love bank withdrawals due to many mistakes made. Although you've come here to talk about your sex life, I think you'll need to start from square one. You have to eliminate Love Busters first. Then you can focus on fulfilling emotional needs.

If your wife is unwilling to come here or work on the MB program (as you've indicated), you will simply have to focus on "cleaning up your side of the street." To "sort of" quote Ghandi, "be the change you want to see in your relationship." This is going to be very very difficult. You will feel alone in this endeavor and it will take time for your wife to begin noticing the changes in you and acting differently herself. The goal is at some point for you to have a true heart to heart conversation with her about how much you love her and how much you want to have a truly loving marriage and revisit doing MB together.

You have a long road in front of you and a lot to re-learn and bad habits to kill. Luckily you'll have the support of this forum. smile

Last edited by aBetterMe; 09/16/14 03:12 PM.

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MB has changed me and changed my life. I am becoming a better person for it, and building a better marriage. MB principles can truly help you create the love and the life you want.
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Originally Posted By: codrdave
And yeah, I've been having angry outbursts on here as well as in real life. Trust me, it has to end. I'm not going to put up with it from myself anymore.

Read this. Anger Management 101


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Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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Originally Posted By: codrdave
I am fully open to change my opinions, but please include real life cases of men doing the right thing and his wife actually met his sex needs his way enough to be worth it.


Here I am!

First thing I think you need to do is withdraw from all the sexually deviant behavior and porn and stuff. There's no way you can make a good decision when you are still fogged out on it.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 17 years, who is a beautiful angel.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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There are a bazillion ways to have sex. You will enjoy a gazillion of them and she will enjoy a zillion. There's a million ways that are in both the gazillion and the zillion. You'll both enjoy those. Stick to those.

First eliminate all sources of sexual experiences other than your wife.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 17 years, who is a beautiful angel.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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Originally Posted By: codrdave

Also, in telling you that she doesn't NEEEEED rough sex, I was trying to convey that it doesn't matter what I ask for in bed. She will fight it.


But she won't fight what she enjoys and likes. My point is that she was expressing her displeasure which is why she avoids sex. It sounds like she has a long history of agreeing to sex "dates" to just get you off her back and not necessarily because she WANTS to do that. What we can do is to help her desire sex with you.

You have the right idea in setting up "dates" however, women don't enjoy a date just to have sex. YUCK. WE want to be romanced and warmed up. Otherwise we just feel used. This is why it is important to schedule REAL DATES that end in sex, not dates that are only SEX. That is a complete turn off for most women.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Once I again, women need two things to desire sex: an emotional attachment to the man and the prospect of enjoyment. If you aren't spending 15+ hours per week meeting her intimate emotional needs, she won't feel any attachment and sex will just be an unpleasant DUTY. If she has to endure sexual acts she does't enjoy, she won't want to have sex either. That is why it is important to not ask her to do anything she doesn't enjoy.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted By: codrdave
So I've been considering your words. I'm in agreement but shouldn't this go both ways? I'm looking back at our sex life before swinging and porn and there was a period of about 10 years where she might have initiated a half a dozen times. On top of that, when we did have sex, I was very attentive. A lot of affection, kissing etc. She would orgasm sometimes in excess of 50 times. I learned to watch her pupils, breathing, skin tension, muscle tension etc. I knew exactly what part of her wrist when caressed gently made her melt. I did these things well and often. But there was no reciprocation. When asked why she doesn't initiate, she replied 'why should I?'. Basically, she was a recipient sexually and often times did nothing for me sexually. If you ask her what i like sexually, she will recite back my overt sexual requests, but she couldn't tell you the first thing about what little detail makes me 'melt'. She's oblivious.

I've been married for 29.5 years. There was an entire decade where sex pretty much revolved around her needs. At what point do I call bologna on it creating a reciprocal effect. Maybe you think that simply making genital contact is what I am satisfied by. I'm not sure how a woman is allowed to classify sex worth having from sex not worth having but a man is not.

When you consider these things, know that many aspect of our personalities are gender inverted. I prefer to cook and my wife will zone out watching football. So, perhaps our sexual needs are inverted and that should be considered. I'm pretty sure I'm the female voice here saying it's not satisfying and not meeting my emotional needs. She is the one who can 'just get off' by sex. I'm the one who needs it to be more involved. She can say 'wanna have sex' then have a quick orgasm then jump up and ignore me. haha... that even makes me laugh when I type it knowing how inverted we are. She can fall asleep and I want to yabber away afterward.

So, maybe you need to see me as the one with the needs of a typical woman and she is the typical guy. I'm fairly certain that if you asked diagnostic questions, you would find this to be oddly true.

The one gender truth that remains is that my sex drive is higher.


You are unnecessarily complicating the issue. She has fallen out of love because of love busters, a practice of sacrifice, fighting and a lack of undivided attention time. Once that is fixed, she will desire sex with you.

Originally Posted By: Dr Bill Harley
"First I fix the relationship, and nine times out of ten, sexual problems disappear, with or without unresolved childhood experiences. I spend very little time fixing sexual problems these days because most couples I counsel don't have sexual problems after they have learned to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement. "


And Markos is correct, you need to eliminate the porn.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Originally Posted By: codrdave
It took years and many HUGE fights to get her to get one. I would say, lets go for a drive and prep you for the test and she would explode. I'm not talking about an angry outburst, I'm talking about blood shot eyes and spit flying out as she screamed at the top of her lungs. You were NOT going to get her to do something she didnt want to do. Period!



This is your problem - not sex. You make selfish demands. She should NOT do anything - I mean anything - that she does not want to do.

Not in the bedroom. Not anywhere. Stop this.

She also needs to quit the angry outbursts.

Your solution is to ignore the relationship and have sex with her in a disconnected way. You can do this thanks to the magic of testosterone.

She can't. You have to fix the relationship first.


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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Originally Posted By: codrdave
So I've been considering your words. I'm in agreement but shouldn't this go both ways? I'm looking back at our sex life before swinging and porn and there was a period of about 10 years where she might have initiated a half a dozen times. On top of that, when we did have sex, I was very attentive. A lot of affection, kissing etc. She would orgasm sometimes in excess of 50 times. I learned to watch her pupils, breathing, skin tension, muscle tension etc. I knew exactly what part of her wrist when caressed gently made her melt. I did these things well and often. But there was no reciprocation. When asked why she doesn't initiate, she replied 'why should I?'. Basically, she was a recipient sexually and often times did nothing for me sexually. If you ask her what i like sexually, she will recite back my overt sexual requests,


Where did you get the idea it was a two way street?

I wouldn't even date anyone with this attitude. You have the testosterone - you are the one with the need. You need to make the magic happen.

If a woman has a need for conversation, it is on her to become a good conversationalist. Not to force initiation and unenthusiastic topics on her husband.

Step up.


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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As far as dates are concerned, we do regular dates with ZERO sex, sexuality or pressure for sex. What I was referring to is scheduled sex which nearly every counselor I've been to and read recommends. Not a 'date' but scheduled nights for sex. In our case, this is mostly because she is A.D.D. and even when I do everything right, she simply zones it out. She even admits that she wanted sex, but just did the A.D.D. thing and spaced it out. This is what she tells the counselor anyway.

I already do the majority of things everyone is talking about here. You have no idea how often I send her off to her craft room and do the whole dinner plus cleanup. Don't assume she is doing it most of the time. It's either me, or she will help a little.

I will say one thing that I guess I have a problem with and don't know what to do. Maybe it's because I have had so many times that I did the candles, dinner and entire romantic evening and nadda. It's not that I expected sex... I didn't do it FOR sex nor did I say, wow, if I do this I'm getting some tonight. She just isn't aware or care. Not that long ago, I asked if we could go out on a Friday night date. No sex, just a romantic date. I had a fancy dinner(Im a good cook) candles, music she likes etc... 2 hours after she said she would be home I finally called to ask what was up. She flipped out and said 'So I can't even spend time with my niece?!?'. This isn't me being controlling, this is her A.D.D. She agreed to a casual request for a date night... but this happens a LOT. I will go to pick her up from work as her car was in the shop and wait for 90 minutes. Finally calling all the phones she could be at. Then 2 hrs in I go home. A few hours later she is dropped off by friends as if nothing happened. The real kicker was that we had an appointment with the bank that night for our refinance. She deliberately planned it this way because I had to pick her up anyway. How would you feel if this sort of thing happened all the time.

On vacation, she just leaves me for days and goes out with her mom, who is in Florida at the time for their winter retirement place. She has the rental car and I'm supposed to just sit there? You tell me if you would be ok with that?

So now, you can pretty much turn my libido off with romance. I can be a raging teenager and as soon as you get romantic I'm out of the mood. I'd have to take viagra and fake it.

A lot of that might also be the pain I have toward her. Again, people assume I'm the typical guy who doesn't help out around the house, barely any affection and I just take sex. This is so not the case. Yeah, after 4 weeks of no sex, I'm laying on the pressure pretty heavy. Her A.D.D. gets her so over committed to things and then she couldn't tell you a thing about me. She did a wedding while traveling for work a lot. My niece heaped nearly all of the burden of the wedding on my wife including making hundreds of fancy invitations by hand, place settings... probably a couple thousand hours of work. between travel and this, NO ONE could have been romantic. She leaves no time. She doesn't ask me if anything she does will hurt us, nor does she care. And... she will do things like this back to back. Then she is beyond crabby. Mind you, I'm doing ALL the housework, anything the kids need, all of my own work like the yard, fixing, etc. She just abandons me for weeks and weeks then shows back up and wonders why I'm exhausted while she extended her trip to hang out with cousins. Romance? Last thing on my mind.

Last edited by codrdave; 09/18/14 04:46 PM.
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"As far as dates are concerned, we do regular dates with ZERO sex, sexuality or pressure for sex. What I was referring to is scheduled sex which nearly every counselor I've been to and read recommends. Not a 'date' but scheduled nights for sex. In our case, this is mostly because she is A.D.D. and even when I do everything right, she simply zones it out. She even admits that she wanted sex, but just did the A.D.D. thing and spaced it out. This is what she tells the counselor anyway. "

That would be revolting for a woman to just put out on schedule. This advice is a good reason why marriage counselors have an 84% failure rate. Women need to feel an emotional attachment in order to desire sex, and that can only be achieved if you are spending 15-20 hours meeting her needs on DATES before sex. The way to prime the pump is go out on dates and schedule sex at the end of the dates. The woman feels close to the man after 3-4 hours of affection, etc and feels more inclined to have sex.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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"I already do the majority of things everyone is talking about here. You have no idea how often I send her off to her craft room and do the whole dinner plus cleanup. Don't assume she is doing it most of the time. It's either me, or she will help a little."

That is not going to do a darn thing to make her feel closer to you though. It might be nice but doesn't create romantic love. Dr Harley's approach is completely different from what you have been taught by other "counselors." And the outcome is completely different too.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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**edit**

Last edited by Denali; 09/18/14 05:24 PM. Reason: TOS argumentative
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Please keep your posts helpful to the thread starter. If you can help him with MB concepts, feel free to post. If not, refrain from posting.


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No one thinks you aren't trying - but your efforts are so woefully misdirected.

Cleaning up the house and childcare is lovely of you but it won't do anything for her libido at all. Zip.

Take the sex dates - yeah lots of counsellors recommend it. Their success rate also sucks. Higher rate of divorce amongst counsellors than the general population.

Dr H's plan in comparison is a great success and it is not hard to see why.

Try and compare it to something you DON'T have a need for. Like the guy in my earlier example who has no high need for conversation. The worst thing his wife could do is schedule 'conversation time'. Time when he has to just suck it up and do it.

Dr H would instead get his wife to consider what he enjoys doing, to have a date bonding over that activity and perhaps talking it over afterwards.

You can see how very much MORE important this approach is for sex when that lack of enthusiasm leads to aversions.

See 'getting it done' is not your goal. Enthusiasm is. Scheduling is not your problem. Getting that electricity and spine tingling sex is your problem.

Originally Posted By: codrdave
In our case, this is mostly because she is A.D.D. and even when I do everything right, she simply zones it out. .


A woman bonded, in love, passionate and longing for her husband's touch at the end of a romantic night doesn't need any attention span. It's not algebra.

A woman on a sex date needs it to be sure - but she also needs to just not do that.

Your wife also has a slight habit of dishonesty as per her driving license. It is not the ADD putting her off. It's the relationship.

Originally Posted By: codrdave
You have no idea how often I send her off to her craft room and do the whole dinner plus cleanup..


Then stop it. Do UA time. Sort the relationship out.

Originally Posted By: codrdave
The real kicker was that we had an appointment with the bank that night for our refinance. She deliberately planned it this way because I had to pick her up anyway. How would you feel if this sort of thing happened all the time.

On vacation, she just leaves me for days and goes out with her mom, who is in Florida at the time for their winter retirement place. She has the rental car and I'm supposed to just sit there? You tell me if you would be ok with that?
.


A lot of her behaviour is unacceptable - but her IB, AOs and SDs would end if you could sell her on the programme.

Again - sort the relationship out.

Originally Posted By: codrdave
Yeah, after 4 weeks of no sex, I'm laying on the pressure pretty heavy.


4 weeks!!!! After years of porn and swinging and unenthusiastic sex leading to aversions? It is going to take a LOT longer than that to get her to a place of genuine enthusiasm. NO PRESSURE is required when genuine enthusiasm is present. If you act before genuine enthusiasm arrives - you've just reverted back to day one.


Originally Posted By: codrdave

So now, you can pretty much turn my libido off with romance. I can be a raging teenager and as soon as you get romantic I'm out of the mood. I'd have to take viagra and fake it.

A lot of that might also be the pain I have toward her.


Dave if you really had a sexual aversion - you wouldn't want sex in any situation.

You are not averse to sex with her - you are simply emotionally withdrawn from your wife and sticking your head in the sand about the many, many problems. Do those problems turn you off? Yeah. But deal.

Your problem is the ability to pathalogically ignore relationship problems until you become miserable.

You can't keep allowing her to swan off for days at a time, to submit to sex she doesn't want, to hit you with anger.

Turning to porn and swinging was just your first way of ignoring the relationship. Doesn't work does it? You can't go to a fast food restaurant to get cooking skills. You just can't.

Stop looking for short cuts to sex and really sort the relationship out. Put on your big boy pants and get ready for a really long haul.

The rest will follow.


Last edited by indiegirl; 09/18/14 05:49 PM.

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Originally Posted By: codrdave
night. She just isn't aware or care. Not that long ago, I asked if we could go out on a Friday night date. No sex, just a romantic date. I had a fancy dinner(Im a good cook) candles, music she likes etc... 2 hours after she said she would be home I finally called to ask what was up. She flipped out and said 'So I can't even spend time with my niece?!?'. This isn't me being controlling, this is her A.D.D. She agreed to a casual request for a date night... but this happens a LOT.


This is because she is checked out. She has fallen out of love so she would rather do ANYTHING to be around you. But that can change if you clean up your love busters, stop pressuring her for sex, and restore the romantic love to your marriage.

Quote:
On vacation, she just leaves me for days and goes out with her mom, who is in Florida at the time for their winter retirement place. She has the rental car and I'm supposed to just sit there? You tell me if you would be ok with that?


She would rather be with anyone other than you. But we already know this.


Quote:
between travel and this, NO ONE could have been romantic. She leaves no time. She doesn't ask me if anything she does will hurt us, nor does she care. And... she will do things like this back to back. Then she is beyond crabby. Mind you, I'm doing ALL the housework, anything the kids need, all of my own work like the yard, fixing, etc. She just abandons me for weeks and weeks then shows back up and wonders why I'm exhausted while she extended her trip to hang out with cousins. Romance? Last thing on my mind.


We understand completely. She has checked out. Now, do you want us to help you get her checked BACK IN?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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