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Joined: Dec 2005
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Why not learn from this and help others? Why not use your experiences to give back to MB and be the loudest proponent of "NC for life, no exceptions, no excuses" on the board? Those words may have a bigger impact coming from a FWS than a BS and may prevent a lot of pain and heartache for many, many people in this world.

I won't say much about the facts, except that I see a world of difference between a chance encounter that you are nervous about mentioning to your FBS, and allowing chit chat yet alone planning to spend time with the OP for coffee or whatever.

The whole A, R, NC stuff boils down to this for me: how would you want to be treated if you were the BS? Not like this, I'm guessing.


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Jen,

Knock it off. You aren't pond scum. Your contribution here is way too valuable and you know it. How many peple do you think you have reached over the years anyway?

BK


Me: 56 (FBS) Wife: 55 (FWW)
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Married 11/1982 3 Sons 27,25,23
Empty Nesters.
Fully Recovered.
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KiwiJ Offline OP
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OK guys, you win. In the face of your support (I'm blubbering at work) I know I need to stay here.

But, right now, I do need to work (real work at work, work).

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Not because of the 2x4s but because I can never hold my head up again with people I've grown to love.

I guess I've confirmed that we really are pond scum.

No one is judging you. Like the last poster wrote, stay and help others to know how addictive this is. Help us understand why you broke NC.

This won't be easy, Jen. telling your husband will be very painful for both of you. I know folks here will support you in doing it. But it has to be done. He deserves the truth. He deserves to decide for himself if he wants to stay married based on the truth. And you are withholding it.

One of the things that hurt the most during my husband's affairs was he kept the truth from me, which kept me from making decisions for myself based on the truth. I felt I was being manipulated.

Tell him.

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Hi Jen,

I haven't really chatted with you before, but something you're doing right now really got my attention.

When you said this:

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Thank you to everyone who has helped me and who I hope I have helped over the past 2 years but I can't stay. Not because of the 2x4s but because I can never hold my head up again with people I've grown to love.

I guess I've confirmed that we really are pond scum.

You're speaking from a place of shame and humiliation, from a place of feeling horrifically inadequate and powerless. In other words, you feel like complete crap about yourself.

And you're doing things that feed the cycle of feeling like crap.

What are they?

Hurting your own integrity with contact with the OM.
Hurting your integrity some more by not telling your husband.
Hurting your integrity some more by entering the cycle of shame/humiliation/despair/secrecy. It cycles on itself, you know.

So can I suggest to you that you take a moment to really look how you feel in the face? Just for a moment. Ten seconds. Really truly feel how utterly cruddy and awful you feel about yourself right now. Care to name that feeling? Do you have any words strong enough to express it? How does it make you feel, physically? Can you hear the self-talk (those are the ranting-at-yourself words you hear in your head when you're doing something that part of you doesn't like one bit).

Okay, now, don't panic. We're all here sitting with you while you feel that stuff. (Everyone else, no 2x4s for the moment. No matter what you say, the feelings Jen gets to experience are worse. Trust me on this one.)

So Jen. Now, I need your help remembering a few things about yourself.

First off, consider a small child. Maybe not even two years old. A little tiny one. And that little child, you come across in a completely desolate place -- a desert, maybe. You're lost in that place. Scared, alone, afraid you're going to die. You're feeling, in fact, very much like you do now, only worse. And yet, there is this tiny child. A tiny child who is maybe going to die, too, lost and alone and terrified.

And that child starts to cry because she is so completely terrified by the experience of this desolate place, by being completely alone in it, by being ready to die, in not very long, of thirst.

What do you do, Jen? I'm guessing, here. I'm guessing that you take the time to pick up that tiny child, that you take the time to comfort the child, and to share the bit of water you have with you. And I'm guessing you'd do that even if you were almost out of water and didn't know whether you'd ever get more.

I'm guessing that when that child started to whimper and then sob uncontrollably in fear and desolation, that you would comfort that child.

Imagine that.

You'd comfort that child.

Know how it feels when a terrified child finds comfort with you, Jen? Know how it feels when that child's sobs become tears, and then the tears become sniffles and hiccups, and then the hiccups become those big gasping breaths that are the last sign of the passing storm? Know how it feels when that child lays her head on your shoulder, puts an arm around you, rests her entire limp, exhausted weight against you -- and trusts, utterly, that you will protect her?

I bet you know what that feels like, Jen. I bet you -would- protect that child to the very best of your ability.

This is not an analogy Jen. I'm not comparing. I'm working you through a very important exercise. Come along with me, okay?

Hold that child, asleep and quiet and trusting, next to your chest as you walk through the desolation with me a little further.

You love people. I know that you do. Can you see their images? Remember who they are, the details of what they're like?

You are a member of a community. This one, others in real life. You've done fun, useful, productive things with your communities. Remember what they are, remember that you're a member of them.

You have done kind things for people -- you've acted compassionately. Remember the last time you did something like that? A time when on this very board you took the time to answer some newbie's question, responded to someone's pain, offered comfort when someone was desolate and losing hope? Take the timde to think of at least three of them.

You love, I bet, some aspects of nature. Remember some glorious scenes that you've seen in your life? You live in one of the most beautiful countries in the world. You've looked up from your computer at various times in your life -- remember the glory that you've seen?

You have also, I suspect, seen or heard or read or felt manmade things that have moved you to tears. Music or art work or a finely crafted machine or a beautifully decorated home or a wonderfully done garden -- remember what those look like?

You know that there is something larger than you are out there. You might call it God or the Universe or something else, but you know it and have felt complete wonder and awe at experiencing it.

At your core, Jen, these are things that you are. Can you feel that feeling that comes when you think of these things? Can you sense the peace, the wonder, the awe, the love that flows through you when you know them? It's a very important thing, experiencing these emotions.

THESE are the core of who you are. Not the rest of that stuff. THESE are the things that make up who you are.

Sure, you have feelings of inadequacy and shame and powerlessness and unlovableness. Everyone does. Can you have a little compassion for yourself? That's not the same as free rein to continue the things that are hurting you. It -is- giving yourself a little understanding, a little acceptance that you're imperfect.

Don't cycle back to the awful place, now, just because I reminded you about that stuff. Keep focusing on the peace and compassion that you felt when you were thinking about the good stuff.

This is the place where you can find solutions to the problem you face. This is the place where you can, with a clear head and a compassionate heart, understand the actions you need to take.

So, Jen -- tell me. What small things can you do to change the situation, to make it just 5% better? You don't have to solve the whole thing right now. It's taken you a few weeks to get into it, it'll take a while to get out as well.

Just go do that small, tiny thing that can begin to make it better. Something that will change your experience of the situation, something that will make you feel a little more whole and honest and clear, something that repairs your integrity just a little tiny bit.

When you're done, would you come back and tell us about what it was?

[The exercise above is taken from Steven Stosny's work. I've found it to be very, very useful.]


Sunny Day, Sweeping The Clouds Away...

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OK guys, you win...

actually... you and Rob win. And that is what should happen. the married couple should win. And the OP should take a long walk off a short pier.

I won't ride you for what has happened, though I had a fairly surprised, WTF response to it. ****** of a way to learn again that open and honest from the first second is really the only way.

Face your fear and reassure all you can. I hope it goes well for you.

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love and hugs jen......


what we do in life......echoes in eternity!
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JustJ -

Wonderful post.

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KiwiJ


JL once told Myrta that NC is for life. JL also said Myrta will always have a soft spot for OM. Therefore NC FOREVER was the basis of a sound recovery.

Myrta was a foggy as any WW on this board. Any harm she did to the marriage (or myself) was done with the excuse of the FOG.

I was doubtful about the existence of the FOG. However, I now believe in the FOG because without the FOG Myrta’s actions could only be described as 100% evil. I don’t want to believe I am married to a monster, therefore I believe in THE FOG.

If Myrta did what you did outside the FOG I would have no explanation or justification for her actions. I would be very disappointed and I would actually feel repulsion. There is a fine line between hysterical bonding and repulsion. I believe I would feel repulsion the 2nd time around.

I spent a lot of time reading TOW. I am 100% convinced these OMs will always be seen as hot stuff by the WWs-----despite evidence to the contrary. You still think OM is hot stuff-------I don’t have a problem with that. In fact I am sure Myrta still thinks her OM is great.

Marriage after the A will never be the same despite what Dr H says. IN the post A marriage the WW must basically behave like a recovered alcoholic who can always be seduced again by the booze.


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I don't think I've ever posted to you Kiwi. You have received great advice here and you do need to tell your H.

I have just noticed something else that bothers me. Does your husband know you talk privately to BigK? And BigK, does your wife know you talk privately to Kiwi?

You claim you and he are just friends, but I am SURE you both KNOW BETTER than to be talking privately. This is EXACTLY how I ended up with an ONLINE affair with the 2nd FOM! He was JUST a friend that was helping me with my marriage and moving past the first OM....months pass by and well....we ended up having an online affair.

You BOTH sound like you know each other a little TOO WELL...just an observation!

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Stanley, I really, really do think Jen gets it. Actually when I have spoken with Jen over the last few weeks, I told her she was FOGGY. And she is. But slapping her isn't productive at this point.


Me: 56 (FBS) Wife: 55 (FWW)
D-Day August 2005
Married 11/1982 3 Sons 27,25,23
Empty Nesters.
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Oh, Stanley...please know that I don't think of FOM as hot stuff...repulsive, horrific and much like the plague. I stay away.

I monitor my levels of entitlement, resentment and respect so that I maintain my repulsion...my DH just saw FOM on the street yesterday, for the first time in over a year and a half...

I shuddered.

I asked what he felt...anger, fear, pain and sadness...and that he was glad FOM didn't recognize his car or him, because then they would have both known the other existed.

I have shared a contact with a FOM from email with my DH. I did it immediately, from my honor code...and I know that I won't allow myself to get where I am complacent enough with myself, my choices, to not share. I'm not in this alone. I know I will never have another affair because I an faithful to truth, mindful of resentment, know that I'm entitled to nothing and respect others for their choices.

FOM was never hotstuff--they rarely are. My DH is my hotstuff...by choice.

LA

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I don't think I've ever posted to you Kiwi. You have received great advice here and you do need to tell your H.

I have just noticed something else that bothers me. Does your husband know you talk privately to BigK? And BigK, does your wife know you talk privately to Kiwi?

You claim you and he are just friends, but I am SURE you both KNOW BETTER than to be talking privately. This is EXACTLY how I ended up with an ONLINE affair with the 2nd FOM! He was JUST a friend that was helping me with my marriage and moving past the first OM....months pass by and well....we ended up having an online affair.

You BOTH sound like you know each other a little TOO WELL...just an observation!

Hahahahahahahaha. Are you for real 2B - I don't think I need to be lectured you you on this.

But for the record - yes my wife DOES know. And it isn't a PRIVATE chat - there was another MB'er there as well. I have no problem protecting my boundaries. Do you?


Me: 56 (FBS) Wife: 55 (FWW)
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Empty Nesters.
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2B you really do not know what you are talking about- they were not talking privately. There were others there.

I thought you were only lurking- but you come out of the woodwork when there is anything you can sensationalize- what about helping people instead of making accusations- the rest of us post to people who need help- not just when somthing 'big' is happening.

If you have so much wisdom to impart, why not post to some folks who are really hurting instead of just jumping in and making accusations.

Jen knows what she needs to do- she is well-schooled in the mb principles and I for one have faith that she will tell her husband and hopefully, they will be able to continue moving forward.

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BigKahuna -
I ONLY read what I read on here & it was NOT obvious by what Kiwi wrote that either of your spouses know that you communicate with each other. And it was NOT obvious that another MBer was talking with you at the same time.

So my apologies if I had it wrong. And I AM glad I had it wrong! And YES, I have my boundaries protected VERY WELL!

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Kiwi,

U met with the OM and after a few setbacks....you were able to get back on your feet.

This is good.

Now the sooner you own up to this, the better. Let your H know that there have been 'run ins' with the OM. You thought you were strong enough to handle it yet you also realize you need your H's support. BS' know this. Let him help you work it through.

Stop beating yourself up.

Btw, this is NOT the time to leave. It is more the reason to stay. We can help you and your H.

Did you think posting on MB would make you invincable? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

L.

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moveforward...I WAS concerned because I saw myself...I saw myself and how the online A started with the OM! Sorry for being concerned....as I KNOW I was wrong.

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Oh, Stanley...please know that I don't think of FOM as hot stuff...repulsive, horrific and much like the plague. I stay away.


I have to assume that at some point you thought OM was hot stuff. What did OM do that made you change your mind? The reason NC is for life is because the WW will always have a soft spot for OM even if OM is considered repulsive. Maybe you are posting to convince yourself you have nothing left in the tank for OM. In fact KiwiJ have posted similar words about her OM. Under the right circumstances you could fall hard for OM. You sound lie a recovered alcoholic who thinks booze tastes bad therefore he can go to the bar to watch the ball game.



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Stanley, I really, really do think Jen gets it. Actually when I have spoken with Jen over the last few weeks, I told her she was FOGGY. And she is. But slapping her isn't productive at this point.


FOG?????????????????????????????????

At this stage of the ball game?


As I said before----without the fog we would have to look at certain behaviors and conclude they were simply rooted in selfishness, ruthlessness, and evil. I am not talking about the attraction for the OM--------that is a natural behavior. I am talking about taking conscious steps to hurt the betrayed spouse.

Let me give you an example: At this point I know the anatomy of an affair and infidelity like the palm of my hand. Right now I would have no excuse to have an affair. I simply could not pledge the ignorance defense. Anyone that knows affair anatomy would agree that KiwiJ knew exactly what she was doing. To claim the ignorance defense or the FOG is a joke. Now that we know the anatomy of the affair we know exactly ow the game is played.

Fog????????????


I don’t think so.

Perhaps KiwiJ will always love the OM and all the effort to recover her marriage was nothing more than going thru the motions because OM decided to end the affair. Maybe KiwiJ’s husband is truly the 2nd CHOICE.

Last edited by Stan-ley; 05/07/06 06:18 PM.

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Stan-ley. I have 2 words for you.

BUTT out!

YOu have no words of encouragement. NO empathy no understanind. This is a MARRIAGEBUILDERS site. A lot of your own control issues seem to render you incapable of understadning or empathy.

If you aren't here to help. Perhaps working on your own M might prove a more fruitful task thna your hateful posts. A replapse is ALWAYS possible. I find your holier than -thou attitude DISREPCTFUL and frankly hateful


BS-58/XH48
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Long hard road & at peace now
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FAA - Let him have his say. Jen is our 'friend' so we feel quite defensive but harsh words might be as necessary to her right now as our support. TT

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