Cinderella,


Well now you know the actual meaning of what I wrote.

What kind of job requires you to read things and then be hypersensitive in a negative way? Also what society mocks and laughs at christians, did you grow up in the middle east? I'm sorry that happened to you, I had a similar but much less severe experience because I am half jewish ( ethnically and I don't look jewish at all ).

Gabe

Well, I have been an unemployment claims adjudicator and an evaluator of employment applications. There is not a lot of room in either for me to be generous....what did you say? what are the laws? what are the sought experiences? if called to defend the decision, can you do so? A lot of it is cut and dried...no room for trying to intuit what the person means....just look at what they said.

Oh, I grew up in a city with churches on every corner...everyone here takes their faith seriously.....we're a lot more accepting now than when I was growing up. I've had bosses make fun of me. And I'm a garden-variety Christian. Not as liberal as some...not as conservative as others. Truth is that not everyone in the same congregation, much less religion, holds the same beliefs. In many circles, I'd look like a staunch conservative and, in others, I'd look like a flaming liberal. Being a moderately liberal conservative is sometimes tough.

LOL! At one point, my son was going to a Catholic school (we aren't Catholic), playing soccer at the Jewish Community Center (we aren't Jewish), and attending a non-denominational Christian church. It was sort of strange.

well you really shook the tree with your question didn't you?

Speaking as FWW I freely admit to being catholic and far more dedicated after my affair than before. For me finding a stronger faith helped me in being a better wife and mother. It also helped me face up to what I had done.

I found it very very hard to forgive myself and really thought that my H shouldn't have... I didn't deserve it. My DH thought differently for which I remain eternally grateful. He gave me a gift of grace. I have learnt much from his determination and love. He rather wonderful.

It has taken me a long time to fully accept forgiveness. I still have moments of doubt but then maybe that's not so bad. It reminds me that I can make mistakes and not to repeat them.

Being a Christian does not mean you don't have to face the consequences of your choices your lies yours actions. Forgiveness is an entirely different issue.

6years,

That was a GREAT discription of morality ... we seem to share a common belief system.

Personally, I have little respect for religion, and actually feel it represents, as a whole, the single greatest threat to the world today.

As for the thread topic, when I read of some wayward proclaim their overall underlying "goodness" due to their christianity, or a betrayed basically giving up and "leaving it in God's hands", I tend to discount their perspectives and abilities to deal with this level of immorality in a real and substantive fashion.

Well, I can only comment on this FWW since making assumptions of other FWWs' reasons would be a DJ, a concept I learned right here on this site.

One thing I know for sure, I didn't cheat because I had an automatic out. And I'm not dancing through this nightmare I created because I know God has forgiven me.

Being a Christian and accepting God's forgiveness has not been a coping mechanism for me either. It has actually been a light at the end of this long dark tunnel that I am trying my best to get to. It has given me hope and guidance and compassion and love.

So when I mention God and His forgiveness of me, it's simply a fact that I don't deserve at all, but take with a humble heart and a whole lot of gratitude.

Wow, this thread has gone all over the map. Let me see if I can respond to the major issues raised here.

First, why do we see so many FWW mentioning that they are Christians. I believe that the term Christian is one of the most misused words in the English language. If you go back to the original text of the Bible and look at when this term was first used, it meant people who had a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Today, many people claim to be Christians because they attend a Christian church or because their parents were Christian or because they follow the principles laid out in the Bible. Rev Billy Graham once stated that he believed that 80% of the people attending Christian churches were not really Christians.

Why is this distinction important? I believe it will give us some insight into why these former waywards mention it in their posts. For those who are true Christians through a personal relationship with Christ, I think it is their acknowledgement that their betrayal goes beyond their BS and extends to their God. In a way they are saying that their betrayal was worse than most because not only did they betray their spouse but they betrayed God Himself. For the others I think it is a way of trying to convince people that they are still good people in spite of their affair. They are simply using religion to the own personal benefit.

Next, Mark has given a beautiful description of the grace of God and a perfect example of how biblical forgiveness works. True forgiveness is something given not something earned. God forgave me of my sins but I don’t reap the rewards of that forgiveness if I don’t acknowledge my sin and accept His forgiveness. Likewise, I forgave my FWW for her affair. But, she only reaped the rewards of that forgiveness when she acknowledged her sin against me and God and accept the forgiveness that was offered.

By the way, forgiveness in no way means that the offender doesn’t still reap the harvest they have sown. In other words, forgiveness isn’t a get out of jail free card. Mark mentioned King David in the Bible. He not only committed adultery but had his OW’s BH killed. God forgave David of his sin, but David paid dearly for the rest of his life. I forgave my wife for her affair, but she is still paying the price for her infidelity. She is still working hard to re-earn all of the trust that she has destroyed. Forgiveness didn’t mean we just went back to life as it had been. She is still doing the heavy lifting required for recovery. You will see many former waywards that have experienced true forgiveness from their spouse and from God that still have to deal with unwanted STD’s or pregnancies that resulted from their affairs.

Finally, I agree with MyRev(someone mark this day down) on one thing. I have little respect for religion. My faith has nothing to do with religion, but everything to do with a personal relationship with Jesus. If you read the Bible, you will see that Jesus had little respect for religion Himself. He spent most of his ministry speaking out against the religious leaders of that time and eventually it was those religious people who killed Him. Religion is a creation of man and as such has been used by man for his own personal benefits throughout history. The church was created by God to share his message of forgiveness and to encourage local believers. Man has taken that creation and perverted it to suit his own desires.

This goes back to the original post. There are many WS’s that use Christianity for their own personal gain. There are others who are true Christians who use their faith to put their betrayal into perspective and realize the severity of their sin. These are the ones who are truly broken by their betrayals and who stand a great chance of recovering whether their marriage survives or not. I think you can discern the difference in their actions after the affair.

My point was the WW gets to wipe the slate clean and start over with zero repercussions, leaving a wake of destruction to be dealt with.

I am required to forgive her and just suck it up with zero compensation for the destruction caused.

OM is off scott free too.

Heck, even my church is off scott free.

Yes, ABSOLUTELY...

And...

For those of us that have repented and been shown so much grace & mercy by our BS and God...and then have gone on to recover our marriages, it is a way to say...

Look at how low and despicable I was, and now LOOK HOW FAR GOD HAS BROUGHT ME...What was surely only meant for EVIL, God took and used for good once I surrendered to Him...

A way to bear witness...

A way to give the glory to God...Where it belongs...

A Christian understands that without God, we are worthless...that our only value is through Him...

Mrs. W

Pariah,

This is where your trust in God must come in...NOT trust in the church of man, but God...

God meant everything that He said...Remember He said, "Vengeance is mine"...Trust Him that your exWW and OM will NOT get off "scott free"...

When you place your trust in Him this will release you from the anger and bitterness - because you will KNOW that the score will be evened...He said so, and He doesn't lie...Trusting that will allow you to get to a point where you stand ready to forgive, should your exWW ever repent and ask...God just requires us to be READY to forgive...You don't have to offer this forgiveness to your exWW unless she repents and asks...

This is about your heart condition before God...

Mrs. W

I knew this was in there somewhere. I used to be sharp as a tack, but I'm afraid now my abilities are blunted, here's just the trick!


It says zip about repentant or unrepentant.

This is the part that I could explain all day, but if you’re not a Christian you will never understand because it is so foreign to our culture. But I will try anyway.

As a Christian, I believe that I am a sinner and that my only hope for redemption and an eternity in heaven is through the grace of God when He sent His Son Jesus to die and pay the price for my sin. I don’t deserve it but He gives it anyway. What I deserve based on my sin( which is in effect my infidelity to God) is death and an eternity in hell, but what he offers me is forgiveness.

My wife, through her betrayal of our marriage, doesn’t deserve forgiveness. She deserves to pay the price for her transgressions. But by forgiving her, I am simply extended the same grace shown to me by God. As a Christian, I am commanded by God to forgive those who “sin” against me because how could someone like me who has been forgiven of so much not then also offer that forgiveness to others.

Trust me, at least in my case both my WW and OM have suffered greatly because of their affair. My wife lost her job, has dealt with an unwanted pregnancy and OC, has lost the respect of her children, and has dealt with the unbelievable shame that comes when someone realizes the extent of the damage they have done. The OM also lost his job. He is now divorced, in the middle of bankruptcy filings, living with his parents( hard to imagine at his age of 41), and trying to settle an alienation of affection lawsuit from another BH who’s wife he was involved with.

The Bible tells us that the wages of sin is death and as a Christian I believe this. Every sin will eventually require payment. For those of us that have accepted the forgiveness that Jesus offers, our debt has already been paid by Him. For those who never repent, they will eventually pay that price themselves. That’s why true Christians are so eager to share this with everyone. I don’t want anyone to face eternal death and hell when it is completely avoidable and neither does God.

I don’t know if I’m helping at all, but I wanted to try to respond to your question. Again I hope it helped.

Pariah, I think verse 11 of chapter 6 in 1 Corinthians explains this.

11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

The apostle Paul was telling them that those who were unclean would not enter heaven but through Christ's atoning death on the cross that he cleansed those who accept Him and made them pure and holy in the sight of God.

Which means don't do it ever again or don't do it at all now.

Even Jesus said "go and sin no more" to the woman at the well, right?

She now had to do her part of the bargain.

Just as Daniel states:

RB65:

That was a excellent set of posts articulating a "sprirtual" relationship with God.

I'm with 6YL on this, I don't really belive in God, because he doesn't "exist" for me.

But RB65 clearly wrote HOW that belief can be manifested in someone. And when you can feel that, then you KNOW about your relationship with God.

I will tell you that the four days before Dday, and the four days after HAD to be guided by someone. Because if ONE STEP had been misplaced, the outcome would have been MUCH worse.

One day I may get to that same type of catharsis and end up with a relationship with God as RB65 has described.

About one of 6YL central points, waywards posting and stating that they are "Christians". Its the waywards attempt to NOT cast themselves as BAD PEOPLE. Just someone who has made some BAD CHOICES. This is because waywards are not BORN. (Well, some ARE, and they deserve whatever fire they get on this earth or after...) But the road to adultery is slippery. The waywards try to point this out. "I WAS a good person, and look at me now, I'm a bad person." Pointing out that they "are, were, or raised" in a Christian enviornment is trying to put the best face on thier intentions to make it right (if they ever do).

Personally, I would have never noted "I am a Christian" in my first post here at MB. Because I do not have even the most basic of a relationship with God. But others have had SOME, and wish to invoke it for sympathy, understanding, or perspective to folks who might read thier posts. Clearly, if the poster continues to post, their relative "Christian-ness" will come shining through. And unrepentant ones will glow bright red.

Just my .02

LG

Great post. I feel the same way.

You may never get to see the price they are paying for their actions but that doesn't mean they aren't paying.

That's in Daniel too.

This passage in Daniel refers to the end of time. The book he refers to in verse 1 is the list of names of all who have accepted Christ as their Savior and Lord. These are the ones who have acknowledged that they are sinners and accepted the forgiveness that was offered to them. This even applies to those who have already died as verse 2 which you quoted makes reference.

Verse 2 tells us that some will have “everlasting life” or eternity in heaven with God and some will face “everlasting contempt” or eternity in hell with Satan. The difference isn’t in what they have done, for we have all sinned and all of us deserve hell, the difference is whether they have acknowledged their sin and accepted the free gift of forgiveness or whether they have not.

You're right about the woman at the well. She had to do her part which was accepting what Jesus offered her. When we realize our sin and the forgiveness we were given our desire should be to not sin again.

1 “At that time Michael shall stand up,
The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people;
And there shall be a time of trouble,
Such as never was since there was a nation,
Even to that time.
And at that time your people shall be delivered,
Every one who is found written in the book.
2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt.


We can debate scripture forever and neither one of us will change our minds. That’s why I said that this whole concept is so hard to explain to non-Christians. We are looking at things from completely different perspectives and those perspectives color our thinking and our actions. I was simply offering a true Christian perspective on adultery and it’s aftermath and a little insight on why Christians respond as they do when faced with infidelity, either their own or their spouses.

Runnerboy,

I agree with every single word you wrote, including your paraphrasing of Mark's beautiful decscription and agreement with MyRev. I especially agree with this:

In my opinion, RB, you're spot-on with your great post.

Amen.

I'm just enjoying the conversation with you, RB.

However, my XW will never repent, or ask for forgiveness as she thinks she's pre-forgiven and her slate is wiped clean.


OM is of the same mind as he's catholic and can just pay his way in and since I'm a heretic by his standards what he did to me and my family doesn't count regardless.

Yes, well my mom told my grandmother one time she wouldn't be called to judgment either- because she had suffered so much on earth she wouldn't have to endure judgment for her actions.

I'm pretty sure she found out she was wrong the second her eyes closed here and she opened them up in front of God.

To me, my posts to you, are not about XW or OM- it's about you and you moving on, losing some of that anger and being able to let go of the idea of retribution in this life.