Did you know that Dr Harley says that a WH who is does not come to a BW hat in hand and on bended knee is probably not serious?

SN, don't threaten your WH with "separation" when he is capitulating on the EPs you already told him you needed. You are a broken record. If you want to be married to me, then this is what I need. Period.

There is no further negotiations or threats.

If he's not fully on board, then he's out. It's really that simple.

Nice doesn't work with any cheater especially a serial cheater.

A few posters have mentioned WH must also be a porn addict or viewing it to some degree. I don't necessarily believe that has to be true. A serial cheater doesn't need the online fantasy when he has real life skanks to live out his fantasies with and show him their bodies. You would still need to verify the porn use though.

**edit**

A note: Please help this poster with Marriage Builders advice or refrain from posting.

I'll try to keep this brief because I don't want to further distract the OP from focusing on EPs and Plan B, which I agree is the most important thing right now.

I work in IT and have done forensics for clients involved in divorce cases on many occasions, usually being asked to document evidence of porn viewing or look for pornographic content on the system. It's usually a woman who brings her husband's devices in. Like 99% of the time. This type of evidence can influence a custody hearing in my area.

My experience is if the man is the player-type, they are more likely to be not only viewing porn but filming their exploits and uploading them to user-content driven porn sites. There are plenty of sites out there that encourage this lifestyle and aggregate content so it can be rated or voted on, and often the porn leads them to the lifestyle and not vice versa. Usually also these guys are the type sending inappropriate pictures of themselves to women (e.g. Brett Favre). They usually are not very skilled at hiding things on their computer either.

SN, as you are planning for separation, you might keep an eye on where his electronics end up. If your situation heads towards divorce, it would be worthwhile to have someone examine them for this sort of thing. It could turn up things that would be an asset to you, legally speaking.

Hello wonderful board of sage marriage supporters.
I am exhausted and need sleep, but wanted to make sure to provide an update for today.

The overwhelming reaction that I should not have gone to the movies with him and should have instead been focusing on the checklist was probably right. It made it that much more awkward and hard to drag ourselves back into business mode and hit the list. I found myself having to override the temptation to tip toe around his feelings.

However, I got over that. We went through the list, along with a few additional EPs I tacked on. I want his friend that helped facilitate the affair out of our life. Along with an ex-girlfriend from years and years ago that he is friends with. While she was very supportive of me during this time, she talked to me like she was an expert on my husband. She would interrupt and correct me on my interpretation of his behavior. It was all very, very inappropriate. So, while they swear up and down they would never get back together..... it doesn't work for me. She uses him as her emotional crutch during hard times with her spouse. It has to end. I hate to be the one to do things like this, but I'd hate to be cheated on again more. And I'd really hate to end up divorced because I half-assed recovery.

Going through the list was interesting. He did not fight it. But he was not thrilled about it at all. I would not say he is hat in hand and on bended knee, but he did agree to everything without any negotiation. Including, ending his 20 year friendship with the punk that aided in this whole thing and was willing to lie to me.

Honestly, I would much rather have him begging and kissing my feet for even getting the opportunity to be with me, but we are definitely moving in the right direction.

Checklist updates:

1.The unfaithful spouse should reveal information about the affair to the betrayed spouse.
-this is done. AND he has agreed to a polygraph test. I will work on setting that up tomorrow. He didn't hesitate to agree to this.

2.The unfaithful spouse should make a commitment to the betrayed spouse to never see or talk to the lover OP again.
-done. commitment to never see or speak to OW1 and OW2.

3.The unfaithful spouse should write a letter to the lover OP ending the relationship and send it with the approval of the betrayed spouse.
-done!! I have it proofed and ready to drop in their mailbox tomorrow. He makes it clear the relationship is over, was a mistake and that he is dedicated to him marriage and being the best father he can be. He tells her he will never talk to or see her again.

4. The unfaithful spouse should take extraordinary precautions to guarantee total separation from the lover OP:
-we will be avoiding his friend's family's house who OW is the cousin of
-we will never go to the restaurant at which she works

5. Block potential communication with the lover OP (change e-mail address and home and cell phone numbers, and close all social networking accounts; have voice messages and mail monitored by the betrayed spouse).
-snapchat has been deleted from his phone
-communication channels have been closed
-getting him a dumb phone tomorrow
-I messaged OW's mother again and pressured her to have OW's phone number changed. I don't even care if I come across as annoying or crazy. I hope she gives in to me.

6. Account for time (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a twenty-four-hour daily schedule with locations and telephone numbers).
-tomorrow I am setting up a whiteboard system by our front door, where we will detail our day the night before
-I am also going to look into tracking his car
-He also knows that I expect him to answer his phone anytime I call, or call me back within a few minutes

7. Account for money (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a complete account of all money spent)
-this is easy, I monitor all the money regularly anyways, but I will try to be transparent with him so the information goes both ways

8. Spend leisure time together.
-started today and already making leisure time plans for how we want to do it, how to make time and things we would like to do together

9. Change jobs and relocate if necessary.
-he graduates in 3 weeks and we plan to relocate out of state wherever he can land a good job. We had been considering a move like this anyways in 6 months, so we just moved up the timeline.

10. Avoid overnight separation.
-done, he has a nice cozy spot on the sofa bed.

11. Allow technical accountability.
-I have open access to everything and have made it clear that I am checking things several times a day, or even reading over his shoulder.

12. Expose affair to family members, clergy, and/or friends.
-This was already done on Monday. However, his one friend that I am now kicking out of our lives, I need still need to talk to his parents. It was at their house that the actual infidelity took place. I feel they deserve to know the truth about what went down in their home. They are going to be upset, but they were directly lied to by my husband the next day about the sleeping arrangements the night before. No more lies. Only truth. Husband gets sad at having to upset them, they have been second parents to him. However, he should have applied that thoughtfulness before he lied to them and used their home in ways they wouldn't approve of.


One other thing I have discussed with husband is that I want us to try going to church. If anything, this whole experience has brought me closer to God and helped me understand where true, infallible love comes from. I would love for this to be at the center of our lives. I also would hope a healthy church community could provide good role models for respecting marriage. Good role models seem to be hard to find. Men willing to "get the back" of other men having affairs is so obnoxious. MEN, you are not supporting your friends by not having their best interests at heart. And you are failing them as a friend by not holding them to the highest standard.

Husband has expressed interest in talking with other men who have cheated, like a support group.
Do these exist? What do you guys think about that? Honestly, I would love for him to hear from other men who cheated and their lives fell apart. Too many men in his life seem to get away with it unscathed. I also understand him feeling the need for community. Community has been key in my personal strength through this. I wouldn't feel comfortable with him in a co-ed group setting though and sharing those kids of feelings. I also have this fear that being around other cheaters might lead to sharing of "tips" or "strategies" for cheating. I'm not sure if that is paranoid, but hey! I'm a betrayed woman fighting tooth and nail for my marriage. I can be paranoid all I want.
Also, obviously I want him sharing his feelings with primarily with me. But while I can listen, discuss and absorb the information, I cannot directly relate to what he is experiencing through this or lead him through the next steps with the insight of someone who has been there.



Things feel optimistic. At one point tonight, after daughter was in bed, we were in the kitchen together making tea. He caught my eye at one point and for the first time in a while, I felt him see me. He said something to the effect of, "You saved us." We both know there is a lot (a lot a lot) of work to be done. But man, it feels good to have him home. It felt good today but was hardly easy. There were still times when it was very sad for me. But for the first time since this started, my hope is actually growing. I am daring to think we will come out of this much stronger than we ever were before. And remember, I originally had thought we started out with a marriage of extraordinary care! It is an exciting thought to think that we could have extraordinary care in our future.

I also started counseling today. I have some anger problems to work on that I kept putting off dealing with. It leads to angry outbursts, which I know is a love buster. So I'm getting that taken care of ASAP.

Am I on the right track now? I feel like they are progressing better than I could have imagined. But, I don't want to be lying to myself or missing anything. Please let me know, as you have done so brilliantly so far, anything I could be missing!

And final question. I do want to honor his EN for physical attractiveness and appreciate his honesty in discussing that with me (even if he went a wee bit too far with hurtful comparisons). To what extent do I go? I feel like I should just make en effort to shower everyday, actually bother with accessorizing and maybe replace any sweatpants with yoga pants for when I'm comfy around the house. Maybe I should just treat it the way I would have when I was simply dating someone and wanted them to find me super attractive any time they saw me. Actually, as I type that, I think that is exactly what I need to do. It just takes energy--- but, he's worth some energy. My marriage is worth the work.
HOWEVER, I don't really need to go as far as losing weight, right? I'm well within a healthy range and workout regularly(-ish).

Some good work done, but you need to work out how you will follow this program. Stuff like his PA need and going to church has to fall under PoJA. Some people can do a DIY version very successfully using the books and this forum (which is a support group for everyone who has survived adultery) ...but if I were recovering with a serial cheat I would probably want the course with access to Dr Harley.

Individual counselling will probably involve talking about the affair over and over. Not healthy.

sl, this is a really good start. Affair proofing is step ONE. The next steps are marriage recovery. The recovery program is in the book Surviving an Affair. Do you have that book yet?

I want to point out some of my concerns:

He should eliminate any opposite sex friendships. That is how affairs begin, so he should have no female friends.


We mean that you should spend ALL leisure time together. He shouldn�t be out catting around like a single man any more. I would also recommend that you use the Undivided attention time worksheet that can be found in the workbook Five Steps to Romantic Love. [there is a free copy on this website you can use for now, but you should get the workbook] I would also get the book Surviving an Affair asap and follow the program outlined there.


Why isn�t he sleeping with you? The point of this item is to never spend the night apart. He shouldn�t be traveling without you. But you should be sleeping together.


He doesn�t need to speak to other cheaters, but to people who know how to repair a marriage after an affair. [that could be a former cheater or a betrayed spouse because the prescription for recovery is the same] That place is here. He would get a lot of support on this forum so I would send him here. He can start a thread and we can give him plenty of support.

As far as your question about his EN for physical attraction, I would do your best to be as attractive as possible for your husband. My husband and I do this for each other and it will help your marriage, but do it in a way that you enjoy. However, he has failed miserably to meet your needs in this marriage. He must also meet your emotional needs in a way that until now he has failed. Unless he makes a 180 degree turn in his approach to what it means to be a husband, your marriage won't recover, it will be a crippled version of your pre-affair marriage.

Going to church should be negotiated between you and your husband. Don�t force him to go to church. Sure, you can tell him that he can�t abuse you, but shouldn�t tell him how to be �role model,�etc.

Agree very much you should expose to the cousins parents. Good job holding his feet to the fire!

You are very, very right. I completely didn't see that church needs to be POJA. I will correct that ASAP.

I am getting the book today and have him start sleeping in the bed with me tonight.

I also am directing him here. He is resistant because he isn't the type of person to connect with people online. He would rather be face-to-face. So while I won't force him, I am encouraging him to at least try it. This forum has been CRUCIAL for me to get to where I am. I believe it could be just as important to him as well.

I like the idea of trying to be physical attractive in ways that I enjoy. And it is encouraging to hear that you do this too MelodyLane. I think I can commit to it. Who doesn't like to feel pretty anyways?
He definitely will need to meet my emotional needs. I need to sit down and identify what mine are and think on where I haven't been fulfilled.

That is a good start SN.

Once you speak to poly person, let us know how many questions he will be asking WH. Don't tell WH how many questions will be on the test...he can find out on test day. Often a BS will show the WS the questions ahead of time...more than will be on the test so that the WS thinks he may have to answer all those questions. Often the WS freaks out and spills more info or starts to back peddle about taking the test. Hopefully there is nothing more to confess but it is a strategic move so don't tell your WH about any of the poly details. We can also help you with the questions to ask. You want to make sure they are all inclusive and clear so there is no wiggle room for misunderstanding.

I would also advise you to put a keylogger on his computer/laptop. You do not tell him you are doing this as it would defeat the purpose of having it on there. You also put a keylogger on his phone. I am not sure if a keylogger can be on a dumb phone (someone else may know) but if it can't he will still have access to texting. Not sure how you will monitor that. Is this dumb phone going to be on your calling plan so you will have a phone bill to check?

Agree with Mel to scratch the support group. He is still a WS and is in no position to be talking to anyone about cheating. This would only be a distraction. He should be focusing on his recovery not trying to help others with theirs.

What hours is he at school?

I agree with the others that this is a good start and I hate to be a debbie downer, but I need to point out some things here...just know that it's for your own good

Dr Harley has numerous radio clips about serial cheaters and I was married to one so I know a lot about this topic.

This is the important thing that you need to know:
Serial cheaters will end their affair.
They will agree to everything that you ask of them including EPs and polys.
They will meet your ENs and tell you how happy they are you fought for the M, actually using this to get you to let your guard down.

The thing is, they will do these things with the ZERO intention of actually following through. They will capitulate, and even if they get on board, they frequently will backslide and fall back into bad habits.

It's not that I don't want you to feel hopeful, but you need to be realistic about this situation. This type of cheater LOVES getting attention and needs met OUTSIDE the M vs a garden variety cheater who gets addicted to the OP by mistakenly letting them meet ENs.

He will require constant monitoring and you MUST BE prepared to follow through on your boundaries or he will walk ALL OVER them.

You don't want to be like me....working hard on a recovery, feeling good about your WH who agrees to everything that you ask of him, pretends to be on board, and all the while clings to his SSL and IB behind your back...then gaslights you when confronted. Only to realize you have been spinning your wheels in a false recovery for YEARS.

Bottom line: Be prepared for gaslighting and capitulation. One week, one month, one year from now. What will you do?

Follow through on the dumb phone and setting up poly TODAY. Show your WH that you are serious and that you will not allow his SSL and IB to continue if he wants to stay married to you.

I will post the details of the poly once I know them! I am currently shopping around for it a little bit. They are more expensive that I originally imagined, but it is worth it. I just want someone reputable.

Keylogger is a great idea! I can do that today. Any recommendations for programs?

As for the dumb phone, I was thinking I would just get one of those ones with no plan. But that is a good point there would be no bill to check.

And I agree the support group idea is hitting the trash.

He is at school or internship, M-F from 10-4.

I am going to echo what SusieQ posted and ask this question again since it did not receive a response:


As I also have been married to a serial cheater, everything SusieQ mentioned is what you need to give serious thought to. You will literally have to babysit your WH for life.

Shopping around is fine but I would do the shopping around NOW and get this scheduled TODAY.

I am CERTAIN (as I said before) that there are things you do not know about your WH's SSL. I am betting on the fact that he is not prepared to actually take it.

DO NOT PUT IT OFF.

QFT

Can't you get a dumb phone on your own phone plan? Meaning a phone that does not have email/internet capabilities?

Call your cell phone provider and ask. I am sure something like this exists.

DO NOT PUT THIS OFF.

Take a look in the Operation Investigate Forum. There are several threads you may find useful.

Back in 2007 when WxH moved back home, we were looking at Marriage Builders together (WxH even posted here in 2007 and 2011), he watched the Infidelity Video and was crying, like sobbing, apologized profusely to me and was SO HAPPY that I allowed him back (he was still hiding things from me).

And in 2011 a few days before dday3, he held my hand and popped in the MB CD while we were driving around as part of our date. We got home and snuggled on the couch. Hours earlier he had been texting OW3.

It is NOT uncommon for these types of cheaters to be con artists. Please do not let your guard down. Take him seriously when he has consistently proven himself with actions for a period of time (months) and even then....you need to keep your eyes wide open, even if the M seems "great".

Personally, I would be very leery of him if he doesn't do this.

That was the killer for me. I am not the suspicious type (which is why he had been able to cheat for 16 years) and the though of monitoring for ever just did not appeal.