Hi guys,
our recovery process was moving along ok, with bad days and good days and even a PARTY that we had planned before DD. Ironically, it was the best party we ever threw.

However, during all this time - post DD - the OW kept sending me msgs. I blocked her literally EVERYWHERE, to the point that I had to look into the trash (in Gmail) to see anything.

In all those msgs, she kept saying that she got HPV from me AND that she was pregnant. I have a hard time believing that; she has lied about pregnancy many, many times and I know she was on the pill during the PA.

My wife already called me all names and got very angry with me because of the unprotected sex. With reason. I was in a stupid trance and made the worst possible decisions. She says there's no way I could tell if she was really taking her pills.

But I also know the OW is terrfied of getting pregnant and she is old enough (25) to take the appropriate measures, IF this is true indeed (I don't think she is telling the truth: I see this as just another way to reach me and get in contact again).

I spoke to my wife at lenghth about it. We are doing some STD tests tomorrow morning and we have decided to keep full NC with the OW. I have respected this NC with my own life - I'm being 110% honest, always.

During this time, I believed that the OW didn't have our home address, since I didn't give it to her. Well, surprise surprise; she must have got it from someone at work. I believe the sales manager that used to hit on her did this last Sunday and a friend of mine stopped by and left two business cards. When I called him, he said she had a letter that she wanted to deliver IN PERSON to us.

This was Sunday. Saturday, she sent a msg saying "I forgive you, Luis. Don't worry about the kid. I'll leave you two alone. Go and be happy. Maybe you'll never see me again". This is not verbatim, but that's what we got Saturday. They way she talks about also points me to the pregnancy being a device and not something that's real.

Me and my wife were in shock when we learned that she had our address. It was like a nightmare. I favored calling the OW via Skype, along with my wife, and tell her to back off, stop lying or have an abortion, and that we would be going for a restraint order if she doesn't comply.

My wife was against that. She wants full NC and she also believes the OW is lying.

Questions:

1. Has anyone ever dealt with something similar?

2. Is full NC still the best course of action?

3. How is your experience getting restraint orders? Did you do it BEFORE or AFTER something happened?

This whole connumdrum has stalled our recovery. Any help / suggestions / opinions is appreciated...

Luis

If she is pregnant and sues you and the test shows you are the father, you will be hard pressed to get out of it. If she contacts you by any means other than a lawyer, ignore her unless she shows up on your doorstep, then call the cops before you open the door.

Maintain NC. No emails (don't read hers, close the account and open a new one to avoid even seeing them or don't even look in the trash for them.) If someone says they have a message from her, tell them, "No thanks; not interested; don't care."

Part of no contact is in never even wondering what she is up to. You can't care, wonder, worry or give a [censored] about what she is doing or how she is getting along without you. You have to reach a point where you live as if she does not exist.

Anything less leaves the door open and is unfair to your wife. Any mention of OW twists the knife in your wife's heart again and again until she can no longer take it and then you will be hearing from HER lawyer.

To avoid all contact I think you need a new email and ignore the old one if it can't be closed completely. Gmail is free for cryin' out loud. Get a new one! Then stop even checking to see if she sent you email.

JMO.

Mark

You had unprotected sex with this woman,and therefore the possibility exists that you made her pregnant.

While I think there is a good possibility that she is lying, there is also a possibility that she's not. If you have managed to create a child - however unwelcome - is that your response to her? That she should abort the child...because it's an inconvenience to you?

A child should pay with its life to save you from the consequences of your own selfishness?

TA

Luis....let me get this out of the way..IF the OW is lying she should back off and you should take legal steps to make her do so.

BUT...IF she is INDEED PREGNANT...you are a friggin dirtball. That's right Luis...kill a baby because you were too much of jerk off to keep you [censored] in your pants!....Great thinking. How about if we just decided to kill the person responsible for what has happened...it seems a little more fair, doesn't it?

You wanted an opinion...you got one.

Luis....
2 things bother me in your post.

you say
Don't even look in the trash of your email, don't be tempted to read what she has sent. If you truly want NC... change your settings so the mail gets permanently deleted.

you say
What sticks out to me here is the "and we decided.."
We? Did your wife have a choice? I mean, the whole concept (to me) of NC is for WS to "decide" NC and PROVE to BS NC.

another part of the OW is "old enough to make the right decision" What??? Does that mean YOU weren't "old enough" to make the right decision to RESPECT your marriage? and if you "weren't old enough for that" were you "old enough" to make the right decision and ahve unprotected sex with OW?

I am sorry for coming across harsh, but Luis. THINK before you say anything.

and c'mon man... NC is NC there is no "sort of NC" Talking to your wife about calling OW on skype? Why? IGNORE HER!!! You are not doing what I advised you to do in your other post.... and you are ADMITTING that right to your wife!!! NOW she's going to wonder about your promise of NC when she's not around!!!

Answers to your questions...
1. yes, although not personally, I'm certain members here has experienced a similar situation.
2. You are not thinking again and you are not showing your wife you can be trusted... again. NC is NC and why woudl it NOT be the best course? Please.... PLEASE explain your thoughts for even asking that!!!
3. RO's... I'm currently onthe recieving end of one. THEY WORK! GET ONE TOMORROW!! either before or after your STD test, but do it!!

this 'conundrum'... sorry Luis, you did this. Not OW. YOU are still letting her. Take ACTION and PROVE yourself worthy to your BETRAYED wife!!

Reality.... you have a LONG way to go my friend. The party wasn't as a success as you think it was. It was a distraction. Ask any woman, in public, they can put on a great game face. I'm proud of yoru wife for being able to for your sake. You haven't one the first battle I told you that you needed to win, in fact, I believe you made this war longer.

Get back on track and stop worrying/thinking about OW and concentrate on your wife!

"tough love" here Luis, but looks like you need it!

couldn't have said it better!!

Luis... get REAL with your WIFE and pull your head out of your @ss!

NOW!

If you wait too long... I 100% gaurantee your wife will be long gone by the time you finally do.

Luis,

I'm going to ask you something and I want you to think hard before you anser, if you answer. I want to ask this question because I noticed your post in GQ2 http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...rue#Post3324859

In this, even the title says it.. 3 days later. You can't possibly believe that in a week’s time you can fix 6 months worth of cheating, a possible baby of yours on the way, and talking to OW with your wife to back off is going to fix anything in your marriage.

You seem allot like I used to be in my 20s... not thinking things through, forgetting about the big picture. Living in the now. Not worried about consequences.

Tonight you post, 4 days after the above post. Saying how great a party was "best one we ever had" to use your words. I can't imagine that you can be that blind and narrow minded. And then comments of killing YOUR mistake to solve the problem? Again... not thinking things through. Granted it's not your concern about OW's feelings...but then again maybe they are...after all you did sleep with her for...how long? Oh yeah..6 months. But, killing a baby for reasons that you don't want to own up to... selfish. Selfish selfish selfish! You don't have to have a relationship with OW, but you sure better have one with that bay if it's yours! MAYBE you will be lucky and your wife will forgive you for that... doubtful, but some women do love their men so much anything is possible...

Ok.. My question.
Do you Luis, love your wife? Completely and unconditionally love your wife? She loves you... she's still at home with you. Stop reading this and go thank her right now for loving you. Tell her EXACTLY what she means to you. Don't get overbearing... just go tell her.

Quote:
________________________________________

'insert name here', I'm sorry for what I've done, I was stupid and selfish. I will not rest a single day until you can look me in the eyes and tell me you completely trust me again. Thank you for giving me the chance to prove to you that I can be the man you fell in love with. I am not worthy of your love for what I've done, but I will do all that I am able to so that I can be worthy once more.
________________________________________

Notice I didn't tell you to tell her you love her. If you do that, right now, she won't believe you. She'll go from thinking about your apology to thinking about what a jerk you are for telling her you love her. Saying it now means nothing to her, if you loved her you wouldn't have done this. That is what she will think if you say it. Remember Luis, you don't have to SAY you love her to SHOW her.

Now... after you go tell her that... ask yourself... do you?
Do you love your wife? Or is the excitement of OW what really gets your goat? Now that you've come clean so to speak with your wife about OW. Where's the excitement, the drama? It's in telling us.... 4 days later, that you have a.... stalker?

If you love your wife. Forget OW even exists. Period. No Contact is No Contact. If she's pregnant with your child, you will find out soon enough from a third party. Luis, OW no longer exists....

Go find something else to SHOW your wife you love her...
All the best,
TOMK

Luis

OW in my sitch said the exact same thing except that she said that she had HPV and that I would be getting it.

OWs thrive on the drama. It's what kept the A alive and it's what will keep her trying to contact you for awhile. If she is pregnant, you will find out soon enough. And if she is, you better man up and do what is right for that child.

You are keeping OW in your lives just by talking about her. Unless a cop is at your door or a lawyer is asking for your DNA, it's done. IGNORE her.

I am very familiar with stalking OWs. We finally had our arrested.

Again, unless the above happens or you are in danger...IGNORE her. Stop talking about her and concentrate on your W. She is suffering.

Luis,

You do need to have someone (your W or a mature person) review the info from the OW). NC on your part is good but ignorance when the OW is psycho is not safe.

Trust me, the OW in my case claimed t/b preggo 3 times and then had the gall to ask for $$ for her prenatal care. Well.... when I demanded prof, poof the pregnancy was gone.

So consider the following:

1. Get an RO.
2. Ask an attorney to look into getting you proof of pregnancy.

3. You and your W had better have plans on how to check on each other's safety.

This OW sounds like she is on a rampage and there will be more drama. You and your W must team together to know how to neutralize down to a tolerance level you can handle.

Am I saying the OW is lying? Yes, possible or she c/b telling partial truths. Hard to say but you can be prepared either way.

Who is your MC? Are you talking with Steve? If your W wants to talk with anyone else who has been through this kind of schtuff.... here's my e-mail address: **edit**

The name I gave the OW in my case is PBR (psycho babble rabbit), tell that one to your W, she might appreciate it as a name for the OW. You may have to call her PBR2 <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

L.

I whole heartedly disagree. No one needs to be in contact with this OW. Why subject his W to reading emails from OW for him? They both need to completely ignore her. If ANYONE needs to "review" these emails, Luis get another Gmail agccount and forget about your existing one, give the login info to a lawyer.

Luis needs to FOCUS on his WIFE, and FORGET OW. His Wife doesn't need to review OW emails and have salt rubbed in her wounds. NC. Means NC. I believe that includes no review of what this woman has sent in email. Why is she psycho by the way? All she did was fall for someone, perhaps known about the Marriage, and started a relationship. Calling her psycho defends her in some extent. She needs no defending. Luis is the one who screwed up. Luis is the one to fix this by focusing on his marriage, not a possible stalker. You only let a bully be a bully if you let them affect you. Ignore then and their powers go away too.

Don't forget Luis, you have a whole new day today to SHOW your wife you can be trusted. And another 24 hours to say I'm sorry.....

rinse and repeat!! EVERY DAY!

While your POV w/b the normal reaction, until you have actually dealt with a psycho OW, you will see that special tactics are required to stay ahead of her wacko ideas and their implementations. I have BTDT.

L.

I would suggest a no nonsense response from an attorney asking for proof of the pregnancy. Absent that, the attorney can provide a valuable service by putting the OW on notice that she is to cease and desist any and all contact with the WH/BS lest legal action be forthcoming.
There is nothing that would warrant a RO at this time. While the threat of one is used pretty frequently on these boards, RO's are not for this type of situation. If in fact the other woman has an STD or is pregnant, there exists a legitimate reason to be in contact with the OM (that does not mean that he needs to respond).
Luis is more interested in NC at this point not because it will help his wife but because he doesn't want all the details of his affair coming out. It doesn't require a lot of thought to look at his posts and see that here is a man that doesn't quite get it.

For now, Luis should come clean, grow up and hire an attorney to sort through the mess that has become his life. If in fact he has a child on the way, he should start working on the legalities of that mess as soon as possible (with the help of a lawyer). It's time for this little man child to realize what recovery will actually require...to stop acting as though at one week in, he gets everything because they threw a great party. Please!

I agree with MEDC 100%.

Regarding the RO, while in most cases physical harm has to be identified to file the RO, getting the complaint on file is important, especially if you can show that both you and your W isn't safe.

In my case, the OW claimed 3x t/b preggo. She threatened to have me arrested for spousal and child abuse (all made up), accused me of being a lesbian and having an A with my FIL. She even threatened to have me fired at work because she said she 'knew' people.

I called the police depts in my town and hers. I informed my son's school and my HR dept at work. I was given a separate parking space so that both my vehicle and I had safe or escorted access.

These were proactive safety measures. The OW & WS were at a motel less than 1/2 a mile from my work which was in a different town from where she lives and I lived. OW did this on purpose, to taunt me. I received what appeared to be a suicide statement from my then WS when in reality he was in that motel6 with the OW. Hm.... my instructions were to call 911 and the local police confronted him. She took off but her name is on record for the calls I made to all 3 police stations. At the end of the A, the OW filed false RO charges.

Do you see where this is leading? If you don't record her current events, she just because she is a woman, maybe able to steal you life away from you.

In our case the OW showed up in court with a 4" binder of copies of their e-mails along with cassette tapes of their phone calls, one of which she played to me on the phone. I am the BS!

You are the WS and you should expect the OW t/b psycho. Go protect you and your family. Talk to the police and see how to take protective action. They may laugh at you or help you but better to get it recorded.

Get an MC and let them know as well. More that know, the better you are protected. OW's craziness will be manifest. Just don't lose yourself in the process.

Btw, the false RO from OW was filed and charged. The temp judge ordered it against both of them for 3 years. Which was up this past Sept. This was as a safety precaution for both but now it is on H's record.

L.

Luis,
You establish 110% NC, NOW. If and when she has a baby she will have you served with papers and then you can commence with DNA testing to determine if it's yours. In the meantime. You have about 6 months to work on your M and get your recovery going. Write your NC letter with your wife. Tell anyone that talks to you about OW that you are not interested in any information and walk away. Focus on your M and your BS.
All forms of birth control have failure rates except abstinence and hysterectomy.

Take care of your wife, and if the PG turns out to be real send your wife here to the PG forum. Other BS's have been there before her and will help her.

FTS

Not entirely true!! Look at me... I IGNORED my wife completely while I packed my things to leave, refused to engage in any conversation with her let alone the arguement she was trying to start. That failed her so she called the cops saying I hit her once then threatened to kill her. none of that is true...and look at me. Arrested, booked, and facing up to 6 years in prision. Oh yeah.... the RO is in full effect too. no contact with her by any means (except through my paid lawyer now) yet she gets to keep antagonising.

It's all he said/she said... prrof of physical harm for an RO? Where's the proof in my case? There was/is NONE.

I agree with MEDC, RO's are tossed around way too easily. Something that was meant to PROTECT battered women, is now used as a tool to stick it to the other before they stick it to you.

I recind my RO plea.

Luis...... where are you Luis? Are we telling you things you don't want to hear? If you love your wife you should listen....

one of you will wake up sooner or later, if it's not you first, when you finally do wake up you'll see your wife has bailed on you.

Did you SHOW her you can be trusted today? Did you tell her you were sorry today? And mean it..

Hi guys,
Yes, I am here. It's weird; even with all this pain, we are still a very busy couple. I am mostly helping my wife at home now since I quit my job.

I'm not the immature child painted by some. I acted irresponsably, yes. I absolutely regret what I did. But I also don't believe that the pregnancy is real. At all.

"Luis, you establish 110% NC, NOW. If and when she has a baby she will have you served with papers and then you can commence with DNA testing to determine if it's yours. In the meantime. You have about 6 months to work on your M and get your recovery going."

This was the best advice here. The OW is trying everything she knows to break me and my wife. I told you guys she was manipulative!

I try to regain my wife's trust every day. I say I'm sorry, I cry with her. I gave her flowers, took her to a movie... I've broken bad habits of mine (stupid little rituals) and helped her during the day.

I'm doing everything I can for her. She looks fine on the surface, but I know how she's affected. Every day is a battle...

I got a lot of animosity here because of my last msg. Those two cards by my doortep COMPLETELY FREAKED US OUT. It was a major invasion of privacy. When I wrote that msg, I was still in shock.

I had to mention the party because I was gonna cancel but my wife insisted on it. We worked together the whole day, getting things ready. We saw friends, friends of her, my friends, that reminded us of WHO WE ARE. I learned that having friends around helps anyone to stay truthful to themselves.

I'm sorry if I have a different view of abortion. I'm a spiritual person but my belief supports the theory that the soul enters the both at the first breath. And, personally, I believe a kid should be planned. It would be irresponsable of the OW (if she's pregnant) to just go ahead and have a baby.

(I know, I should have used a secondary birth-control method. I wasn't thinking at all at the time...)

I'm sorry I'm the different one. However, it doesn't change the fact that I AM 100% dedicated to my wife, that I REGRET everything, that I'M GIVING HER LOVE 24/7.

Luis

As I originally said, 'in most cases an RO would require showing of physical harm'. Lying hasn't stop bogus ROs from being issued but if what you are saying is true, then reporting it for an RO or just to make a report is for the protection of you and your family. Don't lie, but don't sit idle and unprotected either. Do NOT do anything harmful or illegal that would jeporadize your family.

So Luis,where are you in this twisted mess? Working your way out or do you still feel your life being squeezed out?

L.

Exactly where is that convenient "spiritual" belief found? Fleshalonians? Or is it Luis's convenient philosophy 1:1

One more very important thing I don't think you quite fully grasp yet Luis. These things you are doing that have "changed you". Guess what.... you can never stop doing them. Ever. You are not being a 'good boy' until Daddy lets you out of the corner, you are being the MAN your wife deserves.

DO NOT begin anything you can not or will not continue to do the rest of your life with your wife. This is not penance for your misbehavior. Trust me when i say this... if you make it that long... years from now you will have a disagreement with your wife, you might say something or do somethign to trigger a memory...and the next words out of your wife's mouth will be that you betrayed her with this OW.

She may forgive, but she will never forget. If you stray from being the MAN she deserves....she will remind you in her own way that she has not forgotten.

I still think you have this notion that after x amount of time things will be AOK. But reality is, when YOU feel that way... you just might have won that first little battle I spoke of so many posts ago.

Keep true to your wife, You'll make it if you stay focused.

and Luis, calling OW "irresponsible" if she has the baby??? OMG, you leave your semen behind in a woman's uterus (and the semen becomes a GIFT when you do that-so you really have no say since you aren't married to her) And then SHE is the one called irresponsible??? OMG! WTF??? Time for you to "own your own chit".

You also said you quit your job.

Did you work with the OW?

You think someone at company gave her your address?

Someone at the company may be enabling OW to contact you?

Is there a company policy about providing info about a former employee?

bk - Absolutely!!!!!

Cind,
Yes they worked together. She started about 2 weeks after he did I think.

Good that he quit, but now he's a financial burden on his W so be better find something else soon.

I think his story is that another guy that wanted OW and became jealous of sorts, gave OW his address. Why, I have no clue... I think that's how i read it anyway

BK... goes to show he's really not here looking for help, just telling the drama. No more excitement from OW so reliving it out here maybe? He's not taking this as serious as he should.

It's the absolute opposite. I don't want any more drama - if I could, I would never utter the OW's name again. What I want is to save my marriage, redeem myself, be the husband my wife deserves. I'm having to be a man for the very first time.

I am 26. I had a protected childhood in Brazil, upper-middle class. In Brazil, you live with your parents until you get married! Some of us are truly "under-developed" compared to Americans. I had it way too easy <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

And the "stalking episode" terrified us. My wife is a very private individual... It was the last thing she wanted for us. We were in shock for 2 1/2 days...

I am dead serious about our recovery. You can see it in my eyes. I acted like a fool... I'm ashamed of myself - and I'll remember this FOREVER.

OK, but how are you being proactive about protecting yourself and your family?

Being in shock needs to be a short lived status.

L.

I've been in shock for the last....yep, last 30 days. I was arrested 30 days ago. STILL can't believe that one.... but I'm being active and taking back control of my life.

I keep reading excuses, I'm not reading plans of action.

Luis, you came here and told us what you did. I'm going to have to go back through all your posts to see if you actually ask for help / advice, but you certainly have gotten it regardless if you asked ot not.

Have you done anything that's been suggested? You don't say anything about what you've done to be PROACTIVE in this recovery. You keep mentioning "us" though. Rememeber, the ONLY thing your wife needs to do, is try to find it in her heart EVERY SINGLE DAY to forgive you. She will not , CAN NOT do that just becuase you are laying there in bed next to her. YOU MUST BE A PROACTIVE MEMBER IN THIS RECOVERY. Sitting back, having a party, and hiding from it, will not make it go away.

And what kind of existence will that child have, if indeed the OW is pregnant? Being the result of infidelity, knowing they were not a wanted pregnancy, their conception possibly resulting in the breaking up of a marriage and with 2 parents who may not be able to stand the sight of each other.

I'm sorry, maybe I'm too nice, but to me it seems obvious Luis is regretting his actions leading up to now, he is trying to make things right and with all the good intentions in the world, wanting to provide for this baby (If there is one), wanting to ensure they are loved ... it doesn't always happen and it can make that child miserable.

If you haven't been in this situation then it is easy to throw accusations of dirt bag around, I was doing just that up until recently, but living it is totally different.

I don't for one minute agree with what Luis or his OW have done. Just in case that comes back on me.

(I am a BS btw, not a WS sticking up for another one)

no, what you are doing is advocating murder...ever hear of adoption???? What kind of life would the child have....gee, I don't know, maybe it could be a Noble Prize winner...maybe cure cancer....nope...oops, he/she gets dissected and discarded in the trash.
I have been in Luis situation without the infidelity. I had an unplanned child...not married to the mom (her choice) and she made an appointment to butcher him...my son, who will now be 12 on Saturday.
No, you are not too nice....not coming here and spouting off that a child should be killed because little Luis couldn't keep his wandering pecker out of the oh so seductive girl at work.
And save the ...you're a BS crapp....your first post here as a BS and you come to the defense of a DIRT BAG, foggy thinking, can't get his head extracted from his [censored] WS.
Gimme a break.

I never once advocated the abortion. I was just stating it isn't as simple as "keep the baby you scum bag". Of course adoption is an option.

You were in a loving relationship when your son was conceived (I assume) without the secrecy, the underhandness, the lies, the deception. In my eyes that is totally different to a child being conceived as a result of an affair.

Please do not call me a liar without any proof at all. I have been viewing MB's forums for a couple of months and have actually been back for advice on my own situation and have been following the story of another poster in this thread and this thread spurred me onto register and post.

I am in Luis's wife's shoes at this moment. My H had a ONS which resulted in a pregnancy. My H wanted to do what was right by that child, support them, build a relationship with them, make them understand in the long run they were the innocent parties in all of this, along with me and my children (their half brothers) but the OW is a witch. All she cares about is filling her purse with cash to go out drinking, using this child as a pawn in her little game of trying to cause as much destruction as she can to as many people as possible, including her own daughter. What a lovely life this child has to look forward to.

Like I say, it's easy to be judgemental when you have no experience at all in the situation. Being in that situation may make you look at things from a different angle.

No, but it is as simple as "don't solve your problem by suggesting butchering the baby you scum bag" and that is what was said.

I am sorry about your situation...hopefully your H is doing everything he can to secure custody of his child. I am living proof that it can be done. I went from a father that had no choice as to whether she killed him or not to having full legal and custodial custody.

I am sorry for your pain....but the child always comes first. Always.

I think what's happening here is that people are taking on their own views of abortion/life/conception & pushing them on Luis. If he feels the way he does, about there not being life w/o the first breath, then that is his belief & he owns it. For us to push our beliefs on him is just the same thing as us saying that adultery is a sin against God to an atheist.

Several things to note here for those against the party:

If I'm reading this correctly, they had planned a party before the W knew about the A. After finding out, Luis wants to cancel the party but his W insists they continue w/their plans. He was doing what his W wanted, not what he wanted to do. I agree. I think it was a little too soon to be throwing parties; however, if his W wants to maintain privacy & didn't want her friends to know that there is a problem w/her M right now, then she has the right to do what she wishes.

Luis, did she state why she wanted to go ahead w/the plans for this party?

And, if you are going to call the OW irresponsible if she chooses to have this baby, if there is one, then by the same token, you must also call yourself irresponsible b/c you chose to have sex w/her which in turn created this child. You are just as "irresponsible". Please don't forget that.



Luis, I know that you just want to wish this never happened. But it did. There will be more drama that has resulted from this. You cannot make it go away. Your W may not be showing signs of anger on the outside; it may all be internal yet; however, she will eventually bring all of those emotions to the surface & you must be prepared for that.



I want to concentrate on this part of what you said for now. How are you regaining trust? Just by crying w/her & saying sorry? What exactly are you doing to show her that you can be trusted? When you say you're "doing everything you can for her", what exactly are you doing? Giving her flowers, taking her to movies is just courting her all over again. How does she know that this is for real this time? How are you guaranteeing her that this won't happen again later? Just by words? By actions? Just what exactly? This is what people are trying to convey to you. What ACTIONS are you taking to ensure this doesn't happen again?

Like another poster said, how are you being proactive in this recovery?

anyone that doesn't believe there is "life" before a first breath **edit***. gee...I guess that thing kicking in the belly...or sucking its thumb is dead huh? Neat trick.

To sign your post "Love in Christ" and have such a casual response to the murder of a child is a strange contradiction IMO.

See...people can debate their belief in God since it can't be proven scientifically...the FACT that a child is alive int he womb is not even open for debate.

I'm with Standing....
Luis isn't trying to DO anything...he's hoping time will heal all wounds.

WAKE UP LUIS!

'Belief'. Hmm, what beliefs and values have we seen from this poster so far? Almost all of what he's said could be boiled down to "I'm really uncomfortable and I want it all to go away!"

He wants the OW to go away, the possible baby to go away, and his guilty feelings to go away. And go quickly. It's been less than a week since NC, but he's already claiming to be 'stalked'. He's excused himself in a variety of ways for the claimed pregnancy - it is of course, quite 'understandable' that he wasn't thinking straight each and every time he had sex with her. It's all the OW's fault for not being sensible.

Luis, you've created a huge mess through your own selfishness, poor choices, lack of self-control and lack of integrity. A mess like this isn't a broken window or a speeding ticket. You can't just pay up and move on quickly. This is a heavy-duty adult situation, and you seem to be short on heavy-duty adult skills. So let's not pretend that rushing round buying flowers and finding new ways to vilify the OW is a mature way to handle things.

Someone who throws themselves into something on a wave of pure emotion will pretty soon drift out when the emotional surge loses strength, as it inevitably does. That includes recovery from infidelity. Allowing your behaviour to be ruled by your emotions is what got you into this mess in the first place. It will wreck your recovery just as surely if you don't start thinking about what the situation requires, rather than what Luis wants.

TA

ACTIONS

1) Talking about the affair
2) Being earnest and open to friends and family
3) Accepting her anger / sadness
4) Keeping NC
5) Telling her EVERYTHING I remember
6) Being 110% honest, all the time
7) Doing things with her
8) Holding her tight when the pain comes
9) Getting tested for STDs (gonorrhrea and chlamydia have already been ruled out)
10) Participating in MB
11) Going to Couples Therapy. Also, my personal therapy and her personal therapy
12) Making sure she has everything she needs
13) Making sure I'm doing everything I can for her

Now, answers to 2 questions:

PARTY - My wife insisted on keeping the date. She said she had done a lot of work already and that it wasn't in her character to cancel. She insisted. Therefore, I respected her wishes and tried to make the best of it.

MY BELIEFS - I have an Eastern Religion / Spiritualist belief system. I used to be a Rosicrucian (Christian Mysticism). According to them, the Soul enters the body at the time of the first breath. Of course, the physical body is alive and the "soul" is close by, but the joining of the two happens at first breath. I'm not automatically favorable to abortion... I just believe that a child shoudn't have to enter the world in those terms. I believe that their soul would find new parents, parents that share the same energy, which would be better than being without an estabilished home. Nobody has to agree with me (and most of you don't, as I understand) but that's what I believe.

I'm sorry I created such a commotion with my post. We were in shambles at the time and very afraid.

Well Luis...in that case...****************edit*********has an affair and creates a baby that he advocates killing should be aborted since a soul obviously missed his body.

1) Talking about the affair
Don't. unless your wife asks for details.

2) Being earnest and open to friends and family
As you should ahve been al long so this is moot.

3) Accepting her anger / sadness
Like you have a choice? Well... I guess you do. If you choose to ignore it or get upset about it, she'll be leaving soon enough. Agin, this is a SMALL action on your part.

4) Keeping NC
You better be. Even going out of your why to PROACTIVELY keep NC. (aka getting a new email address instead of just deleteing any emails you get)

5) Telling her EVERYTHING I remember
Again, only if your wife asks. And... important look into your wifes eyes when you do any talking about the affair. Don't look down, or talk to the back of her head if she lets you hold her. If she starts crying, this is your cue to shut up. Stop talking and just hold her if she lets you. you can go back to talking when she's read. (See this is ACTION).

6) Being 110% honest, all the time
Again, something you should ahve been doing all along so this is moot.

7) Doing things with her
What's the prize behind door number 3 for this?!?!?! C'mon Luis.... all happily married couples do things with each other. you are NOT trying hard enough. You are still looking for the easy way out. Man up for Christ sake!

8) Holding her tight when the pain comes
Only if SHE wants it. You are NOT comforting yourself for your stupidity. Don't even think of of comforting yourself.

9) Getting tested for STDs (gonorrhrea and chlamydia have already been ruled out)
This is action to show you can be trusted? This is you making sure OW didn't infect you (or indirectly your wife!)with a life altering disease. Period.

10) Participating in MB
Good, but again, take a more ACTIVE role here.

11) Going to Couples Therapy. Also, my personal therapy and her personal therapy
How many times have you been so far? It's only been about a week since you posted the first time here I beleive... are you really going or are you PLANNING on going?

12) Making sure she has everything she needs
You can't give her everything, you tookthat right away from yourself the moment you kissed OW. You have to earn that right back. But keep up the work on trying. It builds deposits in the love bank....

13) Making sure I'm doing everything I can for her
Be more specific, this one is a cop out.



At least you are trying Luis. Keep it up, eventually is won't seem like so much "work" and it will all come naturally. But remember, it IS work YOU need to do.

I'm not trying to be harsh, i'm trying to push you in the derection I know you want to be ppushed until you can manage on your own.

TOMK

How come you brought me into this MEDC??? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

MEDC I applaud your stance on this. I might believe that red is blue and I'd be wrong too. This is not an issue of a difference in opinion.

Nice judgment of me w/o even knowing anything about me. I am pro-life. However, if someone else is pro-choice or someone's religion teaches them that life does not begin until the first breath & they believe that, I have the respect for others to not shove it down his throat that he's wrong. If this was not a subject that needed debated, then there wouldn't be any debate anywhere, would there? But there is. We are talking about a 2 week pregnancy or at the most 1 month. There ARE debates about when the life begins. I do agree w/you that abortion (in my own opinion) is murder. But, for me to tell some mother (or father) that she/he is a scumbag b/c they chose that route is insulting & not helpful. In my line of work I have had to learn how to be objective & not bring my own prejudices or beliefs into the help I'm trying to give. If that makes me seem "casual", then so be it. That's all I was trying to point out. I don't think people are being objective.

Let's concentrate on giving Luis the tools to be proactive in his part of the recovery. That's where our life experiences & observations w/infidelity come into play.

TA, I agree w/you. I think Luis needs to do a lot more & stop playing the self-pity card. We hear a lot of "I acted like a fool", "The OW is stalking me". These are consequences from things that YOU chose to participate in, Luis. Please remember that. All the fallout that comes from that is yours to own. The OW did not get "pregnant" by herself. So please, no more the OW's irresponsibilities, whatever you think they are. Let's concentrate on YOUR irresponsibilities. Fix those. You take an active role in fixing the mess you've created.

Thinking,

I agree w/a lot of the things you've said in your post. I do want to point out though that if these are things that Luis has never done before, then him doing it now would be considered change on his part. I'd also like to know what "doing everything I can" means. Luis, what are her emotional needs? Do you even know?

Touche` I digress. I don't know Luis well enough to have come to the conclusion I did. Luis, my apologies and gratitude for a job well in progress.

I'm thinking one of Luis' biggest EN is attention....

I agree w/you there, Thinking. Luis, does this have any truth to it? Be honest.

you stance may be that YOU would not have an abortion...BUT your opinion above is PRO CHOICE. Pro Life people are not tolerant of kids being murdered....see, if you really BELIEVED it was murder then you are choosing to sit back and allow the slaughter of children by saying...well, if that's what they believe... bull chit.

wow..I guess we could take this to anything in the name of religion huh??? Stoning women to death is okay ...even though you wouldn't do it...why...because the koran says it is. What, not okay....why....because it is a woman and not an unborn baby?

Your view makes less sense than that of Luis.

And FTR, it is dead on balls accurate to call a WH that impregnates his affair partner and then suggests, even pressures abortion a "scum bag"...if you can't see that, I would suggest a rectal cranial inversion.

MEDC... you do enjoy the anatomy classes heh? :-)

Standing Together: If somebody is 'pro-choice' then what excuse would they have for telling somebody else to go get an abortion? Wouldn't that be an attempt to impose their anti-choice-pro-abortion decision on another? Wouldn't a 'pro-choice' stance be: Whatever you choose I will support your 'right-to-choose'"?

BigK I TOTALLY AGREE: "Exactly where is that convenient "spiritual" belief found? Fleshalonians? Or is it Luis's convenient philosophy 1:1"

Luis, what does that Eastern religion you espouse say about acts of violence against innocent human beings? It is an undisputed scientific fact that unborn babies are both human and alive. BTW, is that the same outdated belief that claims that males become ensouled much sooner than females? Maybe that explains why in India the number of females aborted is much higher than the number of males aborted? And what does your religion say about not taking responsibility for the consequences of your actions? If there is a baby it is because you chose to have sex. Birth control is not 100% effective - one of the facts of life - don't have sex until you know them.

I agree with the advice to stop ALL contact with the OW, get tested for STD's, get a lawyer and mc, report what the OW has done to the police, etc. If there is a baby the OW can contact your lawyer and testing can be done when the baby is born to determine whether or not you are the father.
If you are a father you have a responsibility that you should honor.

But aren't you similarly taking your own views about "opinions" on abortion and "pushing them on others?" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> I would point out that you are doing the very thing to which you object but have oddly exempted yourself. If others can be accused of "pushing their own beliefs" on others simply by virtue of expressing them, then you would be guilty of the same thing. If you can dismiss others with that tactic, you can be dismissed the same way, ST.

Secondly, it is not a matter of "opinion" if there is no life until the first breath is taken. It is not a matter of "feelings." That is a matter of FACT. It is either true or false regardless of my "feelings," because reality exists independent of my feelings or my ability to perceive it. We can mindlessly recite pro-abortion bumper stickers til the cows come home but it won't change reality.

Any thinking person can tell you that an unborn human is FULLY ALIVE before it takes that first breath. Otherwise, there would be nothing to kill, no need to abort. That is a simple FACT, not a matter of "opinion." I can "feel" that a baby is a puppy or a mole, but that does not make it reality. It is what it is.

Now, you can try and "push your belief" on us that this is a matter of "opinion," but that doesn't make it so. You also run the risk of having all your thoughts dismissed with the same cheesy tactic.

On the other hand, I think it would be much more honest if you simply addressed the POINTS being made here instead of just dismissing other's opinions as "pushing their beliefs on others."


And here you go again. Adultery IS a sin against God, whether the anyone believes it or not. That is either true or it is FALSE, based on reality. It does not matter who perceives it to be true or not, because perceptions are irrelevant. I think what you are trying to do, ST, is to ACCEPT all views EXCEPT CHRISTIANITY. To you, it is OK for someone to deny that an unborn human is living, but NOT ok for someone to say that it is. That is a double standard with which you have used to dismiss Christians [and other anti-abortionists].

My suggestion is that you stop jumping through these convoluted logical contortions to accommodate ALL VIEWS [except Christianity, of course, which you feel oddly free to dismiss] and focus on accommodating THE TRUTH. It is a hard life being a moral coward, ST, and I say that from long, hard experience. You will get your [censored] run over sitting there in the middle of the road, my friend.

You are both right. I think one of my biggest emotional needs IS attention. I've been exploring the whole thing in therapy, the question of my vulnerability to the OW. One of the answers is that through her I was felt more powerful, more masculine, above the others. I had 12 hours of work 3 times a week (then two 8-hour days), I barely saw my wife and, when we saw each other, it was never smooth. I never fully gave of myself to her. I didn't trust her; I was afraid. I kept secrets.

So this other person at work became an additional supplier of affection. I split the feminine in two: one, motherly and supportive at home and one seductive and moody at work. I grew dependant on that. Now I know this was a distortion and things were not like that at all, but that was my view at the time.

My own weaknesses made me vulnerable. Like big security holes in a computer network.

Changing the topic, I believe the biggest EN my wife has is acceptance. She wants to be accepted for who she is, admired, loved. One of the biggest changes after DD is me giving my undivided attention to her, never blowing her off, never criticizing her for no reason.

The moment I realized my mistake - and then when I told her - I threw caution in the wind. I wouldn't be afraid anymore since I'd faced my worst fear. This is what is driving me forward, seeing the woman I have for a wife clearly and giving her all the love I have.

Luis

MEDC, Pro-life definition -- Advocating full legal protection to embryos. Pro-choice -- advocating for the woman to have the right to choose. I fall in the pro-life category. I do not believe that a woman has the right to choose. However, as I am in a counseling field, I have to SUSPEND my belief system when giving someone the help they ask for. If a client comes to me asking for my counsel, I have to remain objective. I cannot force them to believe the same way I do that life begins at conception & they should do THIS. I can only present them w/what their options are. Arguing w/Luis over whether his belief systems are right or wrong is not helpful or productive.



Indeed, that may be the way you feel, but calling him names, how exactly is that productive to the discussion except to get something off your chest & make "you" feel better for saying it?

Luis.... do you read anything we say?
We have asked you one very simple yet fundemental question. You answered, but your list didn't tell us much...it was just a list. So we reworded the question.

We know WHAT actions you are taking, we don't know HOW you are taking them.

You still seem a bit too disengaged to me to believe you really want to fix this. in fact, with your last post that you think your wife's EN is to feel accepted, that makes me wonder if you think you don't have a lot of work to do.

You said you THINK her EN is acceptance. You shouldn't be thinking... you need to find out and KNOW for certain what her ENs are.

Someone else chime in here... I think Luis needs a truckload of 2x4s before it finally sinks in.

ST - All I can say is thank God I can take a stand against evil without hiding behing moral neutrality.

I think, rather, you mean you have to suspend your principles, ST. There is nothing "objective" about moral neutrality and the sacrifice of one's principles. One does not have to sacrifice their principles to have gainful employment in the US.


Yet you strangely feel it is "productive" and "helpful" to argue over whether MEDC has a right to express his own beliefs. Not sure how that logic works.


Just as you cannot force MEDC or anyone else here to believe they don't have a right to state the truth, yet you try.


Frankly, I find it amazing that you so proactively DEFEND the killing of another human, yet object to namecalling. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> Do you not find that a little out of balance, ST? And perhaps a little "unproductive?"

Totally agree Mel.

Can you guys tell exactly what I am supposed to be doing? I'm really working my hardest to help her heal. Am I missing something basic??

That just shows that you no nothing about the MH field. There are boundaries that must be drawn between personal & professional. If I thought personally that this client was doing something I didn't agree with, I can express that opinion however, it is my job to present that client w/all of their options, regardless of whether or not I agree w/those options.



I have never defended the killing of another human. Luis saying, It's not a human. Me saying, Yes it is. Him saying, No it's not. What on earth does that solve? How exactly does that help his marital situation?



I take a stand on plenty in my personal life. Perhaps if I would have come in here w/comments like "Luis, you're a scumbag for even suggesting that", we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

Luis. You started cheating less than a year into your marriage. You may have been exposed to an STD, and the OW may be pregnant, which you are going to "fix" by an abortion. Meanwhile the OW is still contacting you. On top of that, you aren't working any longer.

Yes, you are missing something basic.

If I were you, I would tell your wife about this site. Maybe we can help her. You seem to be looking for a quick fix, and this mess is going to take years to straighten out.

ST - THIS IS your personal life here. You are not paid to be here nor am I. What you say is your perogative but I for one won't be lectured by you.

Your first move would be to get another job. Quickly.

Oh, i understand now, it's much more important to put the business income before any morality issues.
After all, you've got a family to feed and so forth. Precisely why most folks don't trust the so called family therapist. They, like you, are all full of [email]sh@@![/email]

You don't even have the moral courage to stand up and state what you believe(or not). Instead, it's all about making the client feel comfortable with you, so they will come back next week and spend another 80 to 120 dollars for your next session.

What a moral copout. You are a couselelors nightmare to most honest folks. Whatever makes them feel good, regardless of the consequences, that's your job, right?

You are Pro Life, until it interfers with your business !

Yep, that's what we morans don't understand about the MH field.
I seriously think that's what a moran C like yourself doesn't understand..

You lack any moral courage at all. Just look in the mirror if you don't believe me.

Sorry folks, I was supposed to diaapear. I couldn't, after this diatribe.

All blessings,
Jerry

[
Yes I do know about the mental health field. I also know that most cause more harm than good by teaching very vulnerable folks to abandon moral principles in favor of the mental illness of moral relativism.

I also know that a principled person does not sacrifice his principles. [or he can't call them principles] Dr. Harley is a licensed psychologist and he most certainly does not remain silent on the subject of abortion or adultery. If anyone should remain silent, it should be those who advocate or condone such evil. It doesn't mean that Dr Harley is unprofessional for stating clearly that both abortion and adultery are evil.


You saying............I respect everyones "opinion" no matter how disrespectful or evil. [unless of course they are saying that abortion is wrong]


Perhaps this would have been convincing if you didn't simply avoid taking a stand against abortion, but CONDONED and justified it as a legitimate difference of opinion.
Yet you didn't hesitate to take a stand against name calling. I didn't see you jump through hoops to defend name calling like you did abortion. You didn't have the "respect for others to not shove it down his throat that he's wrong" when it concerned name calling. Yet you reserved that respect for someone who was advocating abortion, the killing of an innocent human.

So yes, you do take a stand, but not in defense of any moral standard....except "name calling." This double standard seems to go unnoticed by you.

"However, if someone else is pro-name calling or someone's religion teaches them that[/b] name calling[/b] is acceptable & they believe that, I have the respect for others to not shove it down his throat that he's wrong."

Why not defend name calling and condemn abortion with the same zeal you condemned name calling?

What else can be said????? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
J

Hey Jer, great post! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

What the [email]he@@[/email] are we doing her at 2 something in the morning???? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
J

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

ST...my brother has 9 doctors that work for him....he has two therapists in his practice too (it is the largest FP in the Phila suburbs)...they DO NOT EVER, NEVER, EVER write a script for an abortion. NEVER. It does't require objectivity...it requires action...otherwise it is all talk....just like you are a "all talk, no walk" Christian.

I will go a step further ST, IF YOU EVER COUNSEL SOMEONE REGARDING A PREGNANCY AND DO NOT EXPRESS THE OBVIOUS TAKING OF A LIFE THAT ABORTION RESULTS IN...AND THAT PERSON HAS AN ABORTION...YOU TOO HAVE THAT CHILD'S BLOOD ON YOUR HANDS.

Mel, ST and others...thanks for the support. It is funny how this "Christian" will come here and jump on me about name calling...yet, she will defend a person's right to choose abortion if they don't believe blah, blah, blah.

Funny how she failed to address some of the things in the koran that can be done based on ones religious beliefs. Fly a plane into a building....sure, don't call them terrorists or scum bags...they believe they are doing right.


ST...now go over charge for your obviously character lacking objectivity.

I'm sorry but this isn't the first thread I've seen a certain person expressing their abortion belief in a not-so-helpful way on these forums and it is NOT helpful. This is supposed to be a support forum, and just because you believe that abortion is killing a living child then it doesn't need to be spouted on here so aggressively. In fact, the heart does not start beating until approx 6 weeks gestation, so there are different stances that can be taken on it.

Anyway, speaking as someone with experience of how Luis' wife is feeling I wanted to comment on your actions. (I do feel people jump on people much to easily on here. Just my opinion.)



If you are doing as Thinking suggested and talking about it when your wife asks things then, that is a good step. It helped when my H gave me at least some details about what happened. There is nothing worse than imagining all sorts of things which didn't happen.



This is also a good move IMO. It can't be some nasty little secret anymore and your W should be able to see that you are owning up to your actions and are taking on your responsibilities and wanting to make things work. But make sure you do this when and with your W's input because there are some people she may prefer not to know, just yet anyway.



Good and never ever get angry at her. Even if she says something which really winds you up. She is hurting and you have no right to be angry with her at the moment except for maybe if she turned around and said she had done the same. Let her vent. Don't let her hold everything in as it will just boil deep inside and she will eventually blow.



Very VERY important. Any C the OW has with you, tell your W about it. Change your cell number, your email address, let your W know the password/username so she can check, let her see your phone etc. Which leads onto ...



And that extra honesty is needed. Tell her things you don't even think she particularly needs to know. What you have been doing, tell her if you'll be late, if your plans change etc.



This is important. Make her feel loved. Let her know that you are still a family and want it to stay that way.



And don't forget to hold her when the pain isn't necessarily there either.



This is obviously important.



And get her to participate too.



Keep it up.



That will be love and reassurance at the moment. And your helping her build up the trust again. No more lies, not even the tiniest of ones.



Ask her if there's anythingelse you can do.




People say things in anger and when they are scared. Like I've said, it's very easy to think you'd never even consider something until you are in that situation and then your irrational side comes out.

I see people saying lots on here that the person is not doing anything active to make their situation any better. Some suggestions would be good as I sometimes don't know what they are getting at either. I feel like I'm missing something too.

Why does this have to turn into an abortion debate?!

The fact is, abortion is available. Just because someone does not believe in it, does not necessarily mean that anyone who considers or goes through with it are evil and deserve hanging IMO (as seen as everyone else is allowed to express theirs).

And no, I don't think I've ever consider one ... but saying that, I also told myself for years if my H EVER cheated on me, I'd kick him to the curb. Things change and it depends on circumstances.

if it is not helpful to you and you find my approach troublesome...try using your litle ignore feature.
I am not changing for you.

BTW..child porn is available too...doesn't make it right....

If you want to be pedantic, child porn is also illegal.

I'm just saying that IMO the approach does not help the situation. Just expressing my opinions as you are yours.

well...legalities differ from place to place...and I seem to remember abortion being illegal here at one time...as it will be again.

what is illegal in the states is perfectly accepted in other parts of the world. so, if I was speaking to you from a fundamentalist place in the Middle East, I could use the "it's legal" argument to kill a WS.

Sorry, the law has very little to do with what is right/wrong at times.

Hey folks,

I do NOT want to step on anyones toes here... but can we get back to the topic on this thread... helping Luis. I think this went off track and has become an Abortion thread.... (gives me shivers just typing that word).

For Luis.... I think we can take that topic somewhere else? Unless directed at him about the topic? Or...maybe the attacks on one another's beliefs in his thread will enlighten him? Is that the goal?

just my 3 cents... I'll take change is anyone offers.
TOMK

Precisely what I was trying to get at.

TOMK... the abortion issue is germaine to this thread. Luis inserted the idea on here...
there is nothing more important in this thread than that IMO.

Luis, you asked if there's something you're missing, and there is.

Everything you've said and done so far is all about YOUR emotional wants.

There are several people whose lives are affected by what you've done and are doing. But you're seeing them essentially as players in the drama centered on YOU.

You're seeing them as objects, and you're treating them as objects.

You're deciding what your wife's requirements are for her to get through this nightmare. You're essentially trying to manipulate your image in her eyes, so that you can feel better about yourself as seen from her. You're not listening to her, or educating yourself about she might be going through. You're acting paternalistically to impose your solution on her.

You've discarded the OW as an object that no longer pleases you. Whatever her own failings, she's still a human being whom you've misused, albeit with her own consent. But there is no sense of compassion for her in your words.

If the OW IS pregnant, that's likely to be a difficult situation for her. But there's not been a hint that you understand that.

There's not been a hint that you care about the potential life you might have created. I'm sceptical, frankly, about the religious explanation - you don't come across as a person of mature spirituality in any of your other actions or statements, so that sounds like baloney to me. What does your religion feel about adultery?

Start trying to see how other people might be feeling about this situation, and not just about how they're seeing you.

TA

And advocating abortion IS "helpful?" Advocating moral cowardice and moral relativism is "helpful?" Helpful for WHOM, might I ASK? I'll have to disagree with you about what is or isn't "helpful," since you have appointed yourself the expert on this. I find getting KILLED to be quite unhelpful; I think defending moral values can be very "helpful."


and this means ......................? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I have not once said that the best thing this woman can do is abort the child (if indeed there is one).

My point I was making is that I do not think jumping on someone because of your views on abortion differ to their's is helpful in helping them in their situation. I also never once claimed to be an expert <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

I am also now confused at what else people are suggesting Luis do here. There only seems to be criticism of what he has done, with hardly any acknowledgement of anything positive. Blimey, people come here for support and advice. Why bother if all you are going to get is aggression and name calling?

I don't for one minute consider what he did was right. I think he does need to own up to the fact that if the OW is pregnant, he has to face up to his responsibilities and try and sort out this mess with everyone involved.

I just don't think calling someone a murderer because of one comment they made helps in this situation. My opinion, as I am entitled to as is everyone else.

look...you have been here what, a day...and you are going to lecture to us as to why people come here. How incredibly rude of you. In fact, many people come here under the guise of seeking help...when in fact they are looking for enabling. Perhaps, being the new kid on the block...if you weren't so quick to run your mouth, you might actually learn something.

I disagree, that may look like that but surely he is doing what is asked in this situation. Being honest. Being loving. Being understanding. If all he is doing is to make him feel better about himself, then what exactly can he do to make things right for his wife?


Again I disagree, how do you come to this conclusion?


Talking to her, letting her rant and also coming here is educating himself on how she is feeling. Yes, he may be able to do more, but at least some acknowledgement for what he is doing wouldn't go amiss.



The OW knew she was just that. Another woman. He had a wife. I don't see it as discarding, I see it as trying to do what is right for his wife, who ultimately (if there is no OC) is the most important person in this situation.



This I agree with and referred to in my previous post.

I have read the forums for long enough to know that you can be very helpful in your advice and support but are very vocal in your feelings, very abrupt and sometimes very downright rude.

Just because I haven't posted until recently does not mean I am a new kid on the block to these forums.

I don't really care if you have issues with me not posting here until now. You could always take some of your own advice and click the little ignore button.

Excuse me for focusing on the advice side of these forums rather than the throwing the accusations and name calling around.

Yet you are here justifying abortion and trying to shut down any challengers as "unhelpful."


But you are "jumping on" on those who challenge your opinion, which you DO find helpful, strangely. In other words, it is "helpful" - in your mind - for you to justify abortion but somehow "not helpful" for others to challenge you. And yes, you have appointed yourself the "expert," the self appointed "Helpful" Monitor. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />


Yet you think advocating murder IS helpful somehow. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> I would suggest that others are equally "entitled" to their own opinions too, even if it means challening your opinion. That little entitlement works both ways, ya know? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

As I have stated quite a few times now and it is getting rather tiresome, I am not advocating abortion. I am not saying I agree with it, I am not saying I disagree with those who do not agree with it, I am saying I do not agree with the way some people put their belief's across.

It is quite easy to turn around and say "I don't agree with abortion. I would not even consider it if I was in your situation. I am leaving this thread alone" but to come in calling someone a murdering scum bag for considering something which is not illegal, I do not agree with. My opinion again.

Just as it is your opinion I have appointed myself an expert of this matter ... which IMO is absolute rubbish. Thank you.

*****************************edit**********

why...

you are a BS that is his wife's shoes...yet strangely you come to the defense of the WS in this case...when by all accounts he hasn't done much of anything to correct his mistakes...except make excuses and suggest murder.
Sorry, your story doesn't add up. If you were in fact in his wife's shoes, you would understand how pathetic his words have been and how much of a slap in the face his actions have been. You wouldn't be so quick to enable his bad behaviors.
I don't believe your story for a minute.

So, did you pressure your h into having that baby aborted? No, that's right...you decided for the child that because his mom is a drunk that his life isn't really worth living.

*********

What is it with *******who register and on Day 1 start doling out advice, with absolutely no history, nitpicking those who have been here doing the heavy lifting for years? These************edit*********have all suddenly arrived at the same time.

Where are ******coming from? What brings you here, confused70?

These are your own words...taken from page 2 of this thread....
where did you get that he is "wanting to provide for the baby???"
Where do you get that he has "all the good intentions in the world?"


No, you're not advocating abortion on the OC...not at all.

You can call me all you want dear, it seems to be the only way you can get your point across at the moment, with name calling.

So all WS's are scum, who never ever try to put things right, are only considering their own feelings and don't deserve advice?

Why is this forum or even website here then? I thought it was here to help people put things right. To help them overcome their mistakes and betrayals. Just because I can voice when I think a WS is at least putting a foot in the right direction to make their marriage work (I am not talking about the baby/abortion things going on as well) that means I am a troll and can't possibly be a BS?

Pur-lease. Give me a break.

And no I didn't push for my H to get the OW to abort this baby. I also never said the baby's Mum was a drunk, I said she wanted cash to pay to go out drinking with her mates.

Maybe thats why forums like this are no good. People can make incorrect accusations. Maybe it's better for people to stick to counseling face to face.

and Confused....***************....

I will ask you a question that you ignored previously...

if your H's child is being neglected and so poorly cared for by the OW in your situation....are you guys FIGHTING every single day to win custody of that child? Does your husband spend his time, money and resources making sure that baby is well cared for? Does he devote his efforts to ensure the child's saftey?

What on earth are you on about? When have I said I think Luis wants to provide for the child and do what is best? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

When I am saying I think Luis has good intentions, I am saying with regards to his wife and his marriage. He doesn't even know if there is in fact an OC. Until this is proved and there is no doubt he is the father, he doesn't have to deal with that IMO. Sorry.

all she cares about is getting money for drinking.... sounds like a drunk to me...

and you and your H sit back and do nothing for that child except write a check.

So where in the rules does it state someone has to have been posting here giving out love and hugs or going on about their situation before they can offer advice?

I am not a troll.

I came here because my H had a ONS. I cam here for advice and found another website which deals with my situation better, the situation of the OC being involved but kept reading here following another posters story and looking for advice occasionally.

I was then shocked by someone calling someone *********and decided to post. If that makes me ******... so be it.

I quoted you...read your own words.

Of course you are. You rationalized it by saying the child would have no quality of life. That is a pro-abortion bumper sticker. I don't blame you for backpeddlng now, because it is an indefensible argument.


And others don't agree with your ideas or the way you put your beliefs across. They are entitled to challenge you. Entitlement works BOTH ways. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />



In other words, it is ok for YOU to express your opinion but not ok for others to express theirs. And I will again point out how warped it is condemn name calling rather than abortion. It is too bad you don't condemn abortion with the same zeal.



But .......is it true?

if your H's child is being neglected and so poorly cared for by the OW in your situation....are you guys FIGHTING every single day to win custody of that child? Does your husband spend his time, money and resources making sure that baby is well cared for? Does he devote his efforts to ensure the child's saftey?

My situation is of no concern to you. I haven't posted it on here so it is not up for debate.

I never said my H's child was neglected, again you came to that assumption by reading into my post too much.

Plus you are making to apparent to me that really do not have a clue when it comes to this kind of situation (not a straightforward affair, involving COM). It is not as simple as that OC is the most important factor in the world. If it was then there would just be even more broken marriages, with even more children in broken homes.

And I am shocked that someone would come to a forum and on the first day start doling out advice to a newcomer about a program which they know nothing about and condemning other posters. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

you answered my question with your double speak.

your H thinks his responsibility ends with writing a check. you pressure him into having no relationship with his child and make vague references to her parenting ability...now back peddle. When you say that a child is used for nothing more than cash for drinking...and to harass you...that screams neglect and the need for an advocate for the child.

You have answered my questions loud and clear.

So where does the pro-choice come into all of this???

I wouldn't have an abortion myself (I would say now) but I do not think people who consider it should be called murdering scum bags and thrown down a deep dark hole hidden from society.

And I am really fed up of going around and round in circles here. People are entitled to their own opinions, but ultimately I do not believe that it it right to be agressive and just plain rude in getting those opinions across.

I don't think I've been rude in trying to get mine across, same as I don't think you have MelodyLane. I don't even know why this is still going on.

This thread is about Luis's situation, not about whether abortion is right or not, like I stated a couple of pages ago.

How do you come to the conclusion that I know nothing about the programme on this site? I have said I came to this site for advice, which I got, found another website which dealt better on their forums with my situation but came back here following the advice in the programme and reading other's situations.

Just because in my first few posts I decided to pass my opinion on how another person was dealing with their situation does not mean that I haven't read into this one little bit.

Luis's situation INVOLVES ABORTION SO IT IS GERMAINE TO THE DISCUSSION.

And you are intentionally mis-characterizing the points being made because your view lacked intellectual and factual credibility.

I have no idea what this means so I can't respond. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />


But you think its ok to commit abortion and defend it. You think its ok to suggest that your honey abort your baby so you won't be inconvenienced, just as long as you don't call someone a "scumbag." <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />


Well, I think abortion and its bumper sticker advocacy is quite "rude," and extremely offensive. It makes me want to vomit.


Then why come here and defend abortion? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Like I said, you know absolutely nothing about this type of situation other than your passing your harsh judgements onto others about how you would react in their situation and shoving your beliefs and feelings down their throats.

How you can hand out advice on something you have no personal experience of or any professional capability?

I assume you were either a BS or WS so advice on an affair, fair enough. You have stated you had to fight for custody of your son, so advice in that respect ... fair enough.

But I see no evidence of you dealing with an affair which resulted in an OC so you pass judgement all you want on other people's decisions, but you have no idea about the situation until you live it.

I am not getting into a debate about whether or not a child should have both biological parents involved in their upbringing, whether they can have a better upbringing without one of those parents even being involved ... but it isn't simply black and white.

I don't have any experience with jumping off a bridge...but I can advise against it.


Oh...and BTW...I also had to fight to keep my son alive as his mom said I had no say in the matter when she scheduled his abortion....and the law supports that. Let me tell you as a 12 year old, he has some pretty strong feelings about his mom's handling of things back then.

And YOU have no experience watching YOUR child living in a situation on a daily basis that by any ones estimation is less than ideal...yet, you condemn your H's child to that very existence. Why...because you can. Either fight to get that child removed from there and raise him in a good home...or stfu. . She (the kids mother) is doing more than you to help that kid up and until you assume the parenting role that both you and your H have so conveniently abdicated.

I posted a comment about jumping on someone for considering abortion. I then defended myself when being jumped on, not defending abortion in this situation.

confused70, what is black and white is that a child of adultery is just as valuable as any other child. One does not have to "live through it" to know that. Your inconvenience/pain/whatever does not negate that true fact. I have never been murdered, but I feel fairly confident in saying that murder is immoral. Sure, there is baggage involved in an OC's presence, but that question has been stamped ANSWERED once he is conceived.

The questions of quality of life should have been addressed before, not after. But here is the most important point ------------> a child's VALUE is not contingent upon his "quality of life." All life has value. So, you can talk all you want about his imagined "quality of life" but it is irrelevant to his value as a human being.

Yes, you did:

Yet again, you show yourself for only being able to put your point across by being aggressive and name calling. Are you incapable of having a discussion without those?

So you think it's wrong a man not having C with a child he did not even know was his until that child is 2 months old? You do not think a child can have a loving and happy upbringing with two parents when one is not their biological parent?

If the child's wellbeing is number one priority, then who is to say, their upbringing has to include being dragged through to courts? Being dragged between two families? Being reminded every day/weekend/fortnight that they are the result of an infidelity?

If the child having their biological mother and father involved in their upbringing from the beginning is most important then I'm quite frankly shocked that you suggested adoption to the poster in this thread.

So what are your views on adoption?

Anyone up to helping Luis save his marriage???

not until Luis is ready to do so himself.

My point there is IMO the child does not necessarily have to have both biological parents involved in their upbringing ... not that she should get rid of the baby because of it.

Luis - In addition to the already recommended books may I suggest one more: 'Wild at Heart' by John Eldridge. Something you posted made me think this particular author has great empathy for men in your situation. I think it would be a great book to read and discuss with your wife, again in addition to the other books already suggested.

I've tried giving him some reassurance and some advice ... but people others seem set on shouting people down.

Thats my last say on all this abortion matter.

Lets hope Luis comes back for some more advice and to show he is trying to sort out his life.

Oh, I see. So you are in fact ANTI-ABORTION? Can you lead me to the post where you have expressed this view?

It was a little confusing when you jumped on someone for name calling, but NOT on someone for suggesting abortion because it would have been troublesome and then followed up with some favored pro-abortion cliches.

Point out where I said or implied this. I think you and your H should seek full custody and as I said, raise the child in a loving home....yours. While I think it is best for a child to be raised by a bio intact family, I would only worry about the child's best interest.

Next, my views on adoption are pretty well known here. I recently had a foster adopt child and as a few here know, I am hoping to have a foster adopt brother/sister added to my home. The parents are unfit...much in the way that you have portrayed the woman in your H's situation...so, a good home needs to be had.

Any more questions?
See, i put my money where my mouth is...how about you?

THANK YOU meremortal!!!

I never said she was unfit. I said the impression we got was that she wanted as much money off of my H as possible for her own gain, not necessarily for her daughters gain. She could be the best mother in the world to that little girl (except for the going drinking with her mates a lot) but that doesn't stop her using her daughter as a pawn in a game to get money and to break up another marriage ... which is what she tried.

The child will have a better upbringing with her Mum if she isn't using her Daughter to be manipulative and just focuses on being a Mum which is what she decided in the end. The child can have a loving upbringing with Mum and StepDad/Dad and when the time is right and she is old enough to not be influenced by her Mother and her games then she can look for her biological father.

Or we could go through the courts, with money we do not have, try and get sole custody, which we will not get unless there is proof the Mother is unfit and if we did get custody, then I, a woman who had her H cheat on her and get another woman pregnant, would be expected to bring up another woman's child ... even though at the moment I am 7 months pregnant myself.

I don't expect everyone to think how things have turned out in my situation is right, because there is no right or wrong in these situations. Except for maybe if the biological Mother and Father can agree to something without the need for courts and the bitterness between them ... which does not happen very often.

But its our decision and has been the right one in our circumstances and someone else spouting how it is wrong and disgusting and you should have done this and you should have done that ... is unhelpful and wont change things.

So in Luis' situation if the OW is pregnant, he and his wife can work through things and they can sort out CS and visitation between them all civilly, then good on them and I would wish them luck.

If that couldn't happen because the OW didn't allow it, then unless the OW was an unfit mother, I do not think it is totally necessary for Luis to be in the child's life except for financial support which will happen anyway.

My biological father was never involved in my upbringing past the age of 1. I have a man who I consider to my Dad and has been since I was 3 and it was best for us.

Luis, the best advice I can give you is to be patient with your wife. She will be having some very bad days in the days and months to come. So will you. It's unavoidable.

Don't rush recovery; it takes time. And it's a rollercoaster of ups and downs.

Listen to what she needs and do as she asks.

PK

you are right...you didn't SAY she was unfit...you just painted the picture with this...



Then you said these this which makes me scratch my head espcially considering the last senetence above...."What a lovely life this child has to look forward to?"



I'm sorry...but the best moms in the world are not out drinking often and using their kids as pawns. Are you confused about that? These things would be mutually exclusive. If you do these behaviors...you can't be a good mother. Simple enough math to me.

Do you know that there is a father figure in Luis's situation? Is the OW married? I don't think so...that point was made early on...so, Luis has a responsibility beyond his paycheck even if you don't think it is important for Luis to be involved.

Luis, I do see a pattern in you that reminds me of my WXH. And other posters have noticed this pattern too:

"I'm sceptical, frankly, about the religious explanation - you don't come across as a person of mature spirituality in any of your other actions or statements, so that sounds like baloney to me. What does your religion feel about adultery?" (TogetherAlone)

Most likely if you had been using the beliefs of your religious upbringing the adultery would have never taken place. It's intellectually dishonest to turn to a previously ignored belief system only if it serves you in some selfish, irresponsible way after you've gotten yourself in a mess. Does the same religion you claim excuses the destruction of an innocent baby call for the death penalty for adultery?

You seem to expect an instant solution, from others, to the situation you created. It's as if some of the people involved are supposed to just pretend they never existed (the OW, the unborn baby) while others are supposed to pretend it never happened (your betrayed wife). And a previously ignored set of religious rules is suddenly dug up in order to justify the killing of the most innocent one in the situation (as some sort of sacrificial scapegoat?)

I feel you should be warned that this is not going to be resolved quickly or comfortably.

I do want to give you some credit, you did come her after all and have taken some steps in the right direction. The tendency to want it all to be over quickly and/or to somehow pretend it never happened is a very common WS goal. Please do not put any pressure on your BW to pretend she's over it before she really does feel safe and happy again. I suspect maybe that's part of the motive behind your big shows of emotion, regret, panic? Maybe you're hoping that if your reactions to your wife's grief is SO DRAMATIC she will see how much SHE is upsetting YOU by not just 'getting over it' right away? I can tell you from experience it ain't gonna work that way dude.

So stop your sobbing and wipe your eyes, calm down about the OW trying to stalk you (just block it, report it, then ignore it), stop whining in front of your wife about how all this has affected YOU, and how YOU NEED her to be better ASAP, man up and get busy with recovery.

Again, that book 'Wild at Heart' would be really helpful right about now. I'd never read a better clarifification of what a man is REALLY looking for from a woman and vice versa. Your wife needs you to be her hero right now - she should not be expected to be your comforter because you're scared of the OW stalking or afraid of the consequences of the adultery you chose. CALMLY assuring your wife that you will do all it takes to heal the hurt and restore the trust, AND that you won't rush her is what you need to do. IMHO all the emotion you're displaying is an attempt to get your wife to basically forgive/forget before she's ready to, so you won't have to deal with the consequences of the adultery. However that will force her to try to have to deal with it all ALONE. A hero doesn't do that, man. Now more than ever your wife is watching and listening to see if you are man enough to properly deal with this mess you've created.

Didn't you say something about seeing your wife as more like a mother figure and the OW as adventure (paraphrasing - don't even know for certain if I'm confusing you with another poster?)? If so, don't you see how you are STILL doing that? The OW is the scary stalker trying to confront you with a baby as a consequence of your adventure with her... while you run home and hide behind your wife (a.k.a. mommy) and cry to her about how badly YOU feel about what you've done. Well your mommy can't fix this mess and neither will your wife. YOU have to man up and fix it FOR your wife or you will lose her. And it's going to take AT LEAST as much time to fix as it took to break so stop whining and just accept that fact.

My point being, the little girls upbringing could well be worse having my H involved whilst the OW is still using her to get more and more money out of my H. It may well be worse for her being dragged between two families than being brought up in one loving family, with no courts involved. So in fact if my H isn't involved in her life at this point, she could be better off than if he was. Not to mention what affect it would have on our children as well.



I knew as soon as I clicked post that that would not come out as I meant it. A mother can be loving and caring with their child. Ensure they have all they need for them. But once they are in bed at night, and being looked after by someone else (the OW's parents in our situation) then they can go out drinking all they want without it being detrimental to the child. As long as they are not out for days on end, coming back drunk whilst in care ... which we have no proof of.

And my H not being involved in her upbringing at this moment is not meaning the OC is not being used as a pawn, therefore a better situation for the child than if she was.


No I don't, but there maybe somewhere down the line and for 2 years my Mother brought me up without my father and IMO that was better than being in the volatile situation we would have been if my biological father would have been involved.

Like I said, it depends on the situation.

The first thing Luis needs to do is get proof of this pregnancy, but as he hasn't even come back ...
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

I agree with a lot of what you say meremortal. I hope Luis takes note of it.

OT:

I honestly can't comprehend how it would be beneficial to the patient for a mental health professional to endorse the ignoring or ignorance of a scientific fact. It is a proven fact that human life begins at conception. It is only debated in the same way that some folks debate whether or not jews, blacks, or even females, are really as human as some standard they endorse.

And in any case it should be crystal clear that Luis' resurrection of a religious faith he was obviously totally ignoring just a few weeks ago is a tad too convenient to be be sincere, agreed? The bottom line is Luis, like many a wayward, simply wants to get out of his mess as quickly and painlessly (for himself) as possible.

Shouldn't a mental health professional encourage a person in Luis' self-inflicted-situation to accept responsibility and respond to the naturally occurring consequences of his actions with maturity and integrity? I'm willing to bet that Scott Peterson assured himself that his unborn baby boy wasn't really human or alive yet when he killed his pregnant wife Lacy. But is the oh-so-convenient belief in dehumanization of the victim really anywhere as relevent as the fact that the one who wants to kill them is thinking and behaving in a despicable, selfish way? It's still in fact the killing of innocent human life BECAUSE somebody doesn't want to face the consequences of the choices they made. Again, I would think THAT would be of more concern to the mental health professional than reprimanding folks who try to defned the life of the innocent babe! WHY would a mental health professional in any way support the patient resorting to killing a child FOR THE PURPOSE of reverting to the responsibility-free status of a child themselves?!?

Wierdness man!?!?! (or do I REALLY think way differently than mental health professionals do? LOL)

Brilliant MM....great post!

The problem here seems ot be that Luis believes this fact more than anything else too... sadly.

Luis's main problem is selfish entitlement manifested in 2 ways right here - 1. An affair 2. An abortion.

It really is part of the exact same mindset.

and until he changes that thinking at a cellular level nothing will change

hhhhmmmm... no Luis post in a few days....

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> He MUST be too busy SHOWING his wife that he is worthy of her trust.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> He MUST be too busy BEING SINCERE EVERY TIME he apologizes to her for the HORRIBLE acts of betrayal he's committed.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> He MUST be too busy SHOWING her just how much he loves her.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> He MUST be too busy LEARNING THIS IS NOT ABOUT HIS desire to get past this, but more for HER TO TAKE ALL THE TIME SHE NEEDS to feel like she can love and trust him again.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> He MUST be begining to UNDERSTAND healing process will ONLY go as fast as SHE WANTS it to.

Good job Luis <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ....keep it up! But know we are here for you WHEN you needs us!!!

...and we're here for her if she so decides too <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Hi guys,
I'm here. I was quite shocked by the way this thread developed. I'm sorry I even mentioned the A word... Now that some time has passed, it is even clearer that the OW was lying about the pregnancy. A couple msgs passed through my email filters and their tone gave her in.

(my wife agrees that I should filter the OW, not simply change emails. We might need some of those msgs later as evidence. On my own, I never check the trash and have kept full NC)

We are hanging in here, slowly healing. I'm taking your advice and doing everything I can for her. I used to be very selfish, self-centered and felt entitled to all kinds of things... Not anymore.

I'll come back for help from time to time. Things are much better at home, but this also makes it even clearer that full recovery will take a long time.

Luis

Luis:

Welcome back.

Yes, recovery is HARDER.

But if you do it right, Your LIFE will be better.

LG