Just curious if any BH's would like to get together in one thread and discuss some of our issues with our WW's infidelity, and issues with our healing, recovery, divorce, etc....? BBF's welcome too.


Introvert is present

(raises hand)

I'm in.

- Sh0cked

I'll contribute...

Present

Well, things are actually looking up for me today but I am still and H who has been well and truly B'd so I'm in.

I'll play...... maybe.....

I am lurking but might chip in 2¢ here and there.
-rh-

Present and accounted for, sir!

I'll be around.

S&C

Yo!

H
O
O
R
A
H
!

i'm in

Introvert, as the chairman, perhaps you should call the meeting to order...

He's too introverted, hack, cough, gasp

Er, I'm in.

We be called "The Hoot Owls."

Larry

I too am lurking and will chime in possibly....

can extroverts come to this meetin??

Oh heck, now we have to call it the Hoot and Hooter Owls.

Larry

I qualify (against my wishes). I am astounded at the amount of sexual sins in the church.

I hafta be a hooter girl???

Hey - who said anything about allowing chicks on this thread?

What the heck, I'm all in...........


BK,


We could make an exception for Mel since she has busted more WH's balls than just about anyone.....HAHAHAHAHA

Besides, I'm not stoopnid enough to tell her what she can and cannot do. She is an angry Texan with a gun after all.

Want2Stay

Well I'm too far for her to reach so I'm game...... I'll tell her.

LMAO

I'm in... best club I never wanted to be a part of.

What do you want to know?

Count two more Betrayed Husbands who will watch and may participate;

Jesus

Me



btw, ML....you planning on some change operation we don't know about?!?!?

I'd be happy to add any help I can.

I'm just starting year 3 of recovery.

Well I'm a member of "cuckold club" too so I better hang here see if i can learn anythin'

Thanks for showing up guys (and gal).

Just an update on my situation. Had the phone session with Jennifer last night...got a plan now. But it seems pretty obvious to myself and Jennifer that if WW does not follow her plan 100% (narrow path), there is pretty much no hope of any chance of recovery. It's pretty hard for me to depend on WW to make this thing work...very hard. I will do my part, and follow my plan...I guess the rest is up to her.

And that's all any of us can do. We can't do it for someone else.

If we take care of what we need to take care of, and leave the rest in God's hands, we can at least know that we did not shirk our responsibilities and have left nothing undone to prevent recovery.

But we're just 50% of the equation and to try to be more means we have to let some of our half slip, because we can't do it for them and if we try, we are actually pushing in where we do not belong.

Mark

I must admit that as good as the session was, there was a pretty bad storm going on during the last 10-15 minutes and I couldn't quite make sense of some of what Jennifer was asking me to have prepared for the next meeting (stupid cell phones). She was saying that I should write down some questions for WW. But as she went into explaining how to ask them, and what to avoid, I could not make out what she was saying. Note to self : no more cell phone sessions.

Anyone who has done the phone sessions, or any sessions for that matter, can you maybe help with some insight on how to prepare the questions? I'd hate to not be prepared for the next session. If you have done this before.

Consider me signed up.

Add one more to the list! Found MB just in time to save myself some grief but too late to do any good with the WW.

Been there and trying to get my mileage out from the sessions ... mine about $2.00 /minutes back then. I was with SH though not JcH. Never been asked like that.

Next meeting is join sessions w/ WW

-rh-

Depending on how WW's court session goes tomorrow (and NC order is lifted), we may be doing a session together next week as well.

We could make an exception for Mel since she has busted more WH's balls than just about anyone.....HAHAHAHAHA

Besides, I'm not stoopnid enough to tell her what she can and cannot do. She is an angry Texan with a gun after all.

Want2Stay [/quote]

ROFLMAO I wanted to say that, I really did. But I live only a couple hundred miles from Mel and I choose to remain silent. So why say something now? I worked up the fortitude to say that she qualifies through owning a set of cajones she got by attitude instead of by genetics.



Larry

All the best introvert. I will be thinking the best for you, while out of town for a week or so.

Larry

Count me in as well - almost 6 months from D-day...

OK, I qualify as a BH.

Here's a question for the group.

Have any of us found all the pieces of our testicles since d-day?

Whether recovered and happy or not we are a little less than what we were.

And on that happy note, lets keep this party going!

I'm looking in.

ok i'll play as best i can.

seems many of you know each other so let me introduce myself. i came to MB 7 yrs back when w had a brief PA and then just drifted away after a yr or 2. was on another brd and someone mentioned a guy that was trying on my shoes. so i stopped back to make sure they fit.

so what's the secret handshake?

Some Brave Soul Wrote:

Not our meek and mild Melly. Never.

Jo

Not even sure I have any left.

Present.

Has the party started yet? Did I miss anything?

Krusht. How long has it been since the A was over for you?

okay, I'll play.

I'm game

"How long has it been since the A was over for you?"

Dday, and the end of the A, was memorial day 2004. I wandered the battlefield in a dazed shock for about a month before finding MB.

My four year anniversary was acknowledged quietly in my head.

I discovered emails on her account. Never had gone there before. My trust was implicit. A started on the internet. OM lived in Phoenix, we in San Diego. He would fly in for a day of fun and frolic.

I had no clue. She compartmentalized well.

Enough about me

So SDGUY, is it San Diego or South Dakota?

kirk

I know you said "enough about me", but did your marriage recover krusht?

A wise man once said, "Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes."

7-months in recovery and the roller coaster keeps on truckin'.

"but did your marriage recover krusht?"

Yes it did.....I guess...well, yeah, sure it did.

Define recover.

We are still together, happy with each other, and enjoy each others company.

It never is the same though, on the inside....but that's between me, myself and I, ya know?

Thanks for listening.

kirk

ok, I'll play.

maybe the questions are about past honesty ? JCH once asked me to think about what questions I wanted to ask my WW.

Mel<----who thought thread title was "How many BS's are here?" when she posted yesterday, DUH!

I am here.

I'm a member of the club. This club sucks.

Kinda like the Little Rascals "He-Man Woman Hater's Club"?

My answer to this is that I am slowly putting the pieces back together.

I know my kids are being taken care of since they are with me; however sealing with the financial fallout has been very difficult and stressful. Plus they have only seen their mom a grand total of about 6 hours the last two months and won't see her for another month at least (long story).

Will I be able to trust someone again? I dunno...time will tell as my personal recovery continues.

Betrayed and present

Krusht - you think so? Since when has an "overcomer" of one life's hardest issues become "less than" what they were previously?

And in answer to your first question...yes. It "happens" when you finally reach "Recovered," not while still "mired" in the process of recovering. It happens when you realize that there is much more to a marriage than what you find "below the belt." It happens when you realize just how much "testicular fortitude" it takes to actually overcome infidelity.

-Pops, good to have you aboard. Ive been reading RB's thread and I think he is very fortunate to have you advising him.

I'm here too.

Mine grew back about 2 years after D-day. Bigger and Better

I can't even imagine getting to that point at the moment. Good for you.

Testicles, yes.

Heart, no.

I'm in too.

Seeing that this is a gathering place for a significant number of BH's, I'd like to ask the BH's here to share the age(s) that their FWW, WW, or STBXWW was when she started having A ('s). From reading threads at MB, I have this notion that the highest percentage of WW's start down that slippery slope of adultery in their late 30's...say 35 - 40 age range. I don't know if this is true, or if it is just a misplaced guesstimation by me, but I'd like to see if there is any correlation.

We all know that the WW is one of the most selfish and particularly vile creatures to exist on earth, and I think this info might be helpful to some BH's out there.

The mile-high view of my story is:

WW A#1 - PA at 36
WW A#2 - EA (maybe also PA) at 38
DDay = 12/2006
Failed Recovery attempted 1/2007 - 5/2007
Separated 7/2007 and she initiated D immediately (became a WAW)
Still in the middle of nasty D and Custody litigation

I would have set up a Poll post for this, but the new MB doesn't seem to have that capability like the old MB.

Thanks,

LoBoy

My FWW was 39 when she started her A. I guess the admiration and advances of someone 12 years her junior were too tempting to turn down. As of now, he holds the job she used to have, as she chose to resign rather than continue to work there after the A supposedly ended and he was flaunting another A in her face.



You forgot to include "stupid".

My story...

-Me 33

-WW 34 (33 during PA)

-Suspected WW of cheating Feb 18,2008 (deny, deny, deny)

-Found out about WW and OM in a hotel March 29, 2008

-WW admitted to PA in the hotel March 30, 2008 (only one PA)

-False reconciliation for 2 months

-Found out the whole story (at least 1 month of PA prior to the hotel PA) May 27, 2008 (looks like I was right all along)

-WW has broken NC multiple times since NC was supposed to be established (still foggy)

-4 months of living hell for me

-Thanks WW

Here's my lowlights:

-Me 36

-WW 35 (33 during EA/PA)

-OM was the engineer/producer of my DW's cd. Ironically, the studio time was a gift from me for our 10th wedding anniversary.

-Immediately suspected WW of A July 2006.

-WW gaslighted me into believing it was all in my head even though the suspicion never went away.

-WW tried to get me to befriend the OM so she could keep him in her life.

-Spent my 11th wedding anniversary entertaining OM in my own home.

-Had the pleasure of watching WW give OM a Christmas present and a hug in my own home Dec. 2006.

-Feb. 17th 2007 WW finally confessed that I was right all along because she no longer had to protect OM from me as he had quit working at the studio.

-Went through 3 months of withdrawal H3LL!

-CD that came from the A arrived May 2007. Guess what my #1 trigger is?

-Spent 8 months with WW completely denying the pain I was in.

-Dec 4th 2007 I had finally taken all I could take and told WW that I wanted a D.

-WW snapped out of it almost immediately and has become one of the more respected FWS(Resonance/LaLa) on MB.

-Recovering one day at a time, but it is not easy.

Want2Stay

Ok, here Goes.. will make it short

- Me (BH) 29

- (F)WW 28

- OM Used to work with FWW, a friend of mine (we all used to work together)

- A started A week after my 4th wedding Aniversary

- DD #1 Nov. 2005 WW quit her job, but remained 'friends' with OM. (False recovery #1) Admitted to EA.

- DD #2 March 2008 - Caught OM and WW in the act.

- April 2008, NC established...

- Present, Still very aprehensive/nervous/scared/insecure

This is the part that pisses me off the most. I was as confident as they come, in every aspect of my life...now I'm just like you describe your present situation. I feel your pain bro....I feel it.

Me: 47
XWW: 46
DD: 20
Married: 26 years.

OM: 44 (Co-worker of WW and former friend/co-worker of mine)
OMW: 39 (Now fighting for full custody of OMS post-D)
OMS: 3

May 2006: 25th Anniversary Surprise Party thrown by DD18. DD18 graduates high school. The Cell bill would later indicate that the EA was starting at this time.

Summer 2006: WW “reconnects” with 40 year old brother who was active in his own nearly 2-year adultery with a MOW. He becomes her coach and enabler for her adultery.

June 2006: WW’s Grandfather dies.

September 2006: My Mother dies and DD18 moves out to college. Cell bill activity explodes 2-days after my Mother’s death. WW pushes hard to get my Mother’s bank accounts secured into joint accounts quickly.

October/November 2006: My basketball practices on Tuesday and Thursday nights become date night for WW and OM.

November 21st 2006: WW’s birthday. She does not come home until 11 pm. Very foggy and dreamy. Does not open her birthday presents I got for her. I find she brought her toothbrush and spare panties to work that day. Denial was over.

D-Day: Thanksgiving 2006 I confronted. (Much fog babble about growing up, needing space, “just close friends and confidants”)

I am down for the count for nearly 2-weeks. Then initiate an intuitive Plan A and tell her that I would like to remain married to her but I did not need her and she could go anytime she wanted. This was the first obvious blow to the adultery and shook her up.

I found MB December 21st 2006. Plan A begins. Plan A goes very well and pisses her off. The changes I exhibit threaten her justifications and entitlement.

Keylogger catches love letter email to OM January 2nd 2007

Exposure to OMW: January 5th 2007. This was the best I felt in weeks. OM is furious with her for not controlling me.

She declares Adultery is over January 7th 2007 and burns her “souvenirs” (photos, cards, emails) WW admits to PA with some detail. I know I only got a small portion of the facts.

21 Days of NC and tenuous withdrawal.

NC Broken. She is back in the fog big time.

January 30th 2007: I catch a recording of incredibly venomous phone conversations between WW, MIL and BIL. She tells them that she is going to ask me if she could move out to “get space” and if I baulked she would sneak out during my next practice. After I heard the recording, I asked her to leave two days ahead of her schedule. Plan B starts.

Feb 15th 2007: She files for D 1-week after OMW files for D.

June 13th 2007: Divorce is final.

The adultery born relationship between XWW and OM continues today approximately 2-years after the beginning of the EA.

I continue in a full dark Plan B for life and have not spoken to her in 11-1/2 months.

Good for you, man. I hope things are going well for you, and go well for you in the future.

Hey Chrisner ive been meaning to tell you for some time. You ( actually your DD) were a great source of inspiration for me on one of my darkest days several months ago.

I happend across your thread and because I enjoyed your writing so much I was reading back through the adventures of Wayzilla. I came across the post from the day of your divorce. You recounted an email or text from your DD which said something like "Im so proud of the way you fought for our family dad. If you couldnt do it then it couldnt be done".

My kids are much younger than your DD but I knew then I could not give up the fight until I could look them in the eye and say I tried but it couldnt be done. In my case it looks like it will work out after all. She has discovered that it does indeed suck to be a wayward.

Thanks man.

I may not have the "equipment" to post here, but the above quote had ME curious. How many of your all's WW's had A with younger men??? I just wondered because my WH had his with a woman 10 yrs. OLDER.....

ok...back to order gentlemen.....

not2fun

ps....its only fair you all have this....we girls DO have our GODDESS thread.....

Ok count me in.

I found my testicles, coughed them up here after getting hit by a 4x2 and the heart is mending, but getting stronger each day.

In Plan B, working hard to protect 2 young boys and expecting the Big D in about 9 months.

Unlike some people on these boards I was told I had done nothing wrong, but was never given the chance to fix it. After reading some posts not sure that was a good thing or not. My WW has continually kept herself away and not done much fence sitting, so never had to go through false recoveries.

By the way my WW's OM is 5 years younger than her.

me 35

FWW 37

married 12 years

A started 10/2007

D-Day 12/20ish 2007.

OM 26 former coworker and allround loser extrodinare

OM was soulmate and my wife proclaimed love for him on D-day. A couple of false recoveries until A finally ended 1 week ago today.

Now certain the A is over, OM has been revealed as a Scumbag of the highest order.

well once again i feel like the old man on the block. thanks dudes.

well most of the dates are in my by line at the bottom. but w was 45 when she went back to work after 20 yrs of sahm. and of course her stupid butt fell hook line and sinker for the fast talking company playboy.

her EA lasted about 3 months and the PA who knows. she says only 2 times but that was enough for me to throw my wedding ring in the pacific. i thought that once, ok drinking, company party, we'll move on. but when she went back for 2nds that was nearly the straw that broke the camels back.

and of course sancho was 10 yrs her junior. (sorry had the wrong #)

we are still working but she does not put much effort forth. she thinks these sites are "unhealthy". her exact word

i tell you that i know for a fact that i would never be able to work thru the long time deals some of you guys have dealt with.

"...but that was enough for me to throw my wedding ring in the pacific."


Tell me that you actually did this, and you aren't just being sarcastic...

Me 41
FWW 38 (37 at time of A)

I found my gonads 3 days before she was suppose to move out and laid down the reality of what she was doing.

Luckly two days after we found out that OM was living with someone else, she was pregnant and I knew how to contact her.

The day she was to move was when she came to me wanting to talk. the talk resulting in her not moving and giving recovery a shot.

2 hrs later I get a call from the OMs girlfriend, of which we both (FWW and I) fill her in on the kind og POS she was with.

2 hrs later OM calls after getting confronted by his girlfriend. They mutually tell each other where to go.

Since then we've been in sessions with Jeniffer, working on meeting EN's, pretty much eliminated LBs and spending as much time as posible together.

All this being said, I agree that it can never be the same and it shouldn't. I am much more aware of how our interactions go, and still get the dreams of them together.

"...and still get the dreams of them together. "


When was dday for you?

WW was 34, OM was 10 years older.

D-day 1 was May 27, 2007. (Internet EA)
D-day 2 was Nov. 4, 2007. (POS OM moved in with sister in the next city)

He was 3 years younger and a player.

Reconciled on Feb 2, 2008.

>>>>>>>>"...but that was enough for me to throw my wedding ring in the pacific."


Tell me that you actually did this, and you aren't just being sarcastic...



tis the truth. it ws memorial day 01. we were at hole in the fence on at capo beach for a beach party with some friends. we went for a walk and she told me. i took off my ring and gave it a heave. told her she might as well do the same cause they mean nothing to me any more.

she didn't follow suit. she also gave me an exact replica on our anniv 12/8. you can see that oc was born on 12/20. new ring is in the safe and i have never put it on.

>>>>>All this being said, I agree that it can never be the same and it shouldn't. I am much more aware of how our interactions go, and still get the dreams of them together>>>>>

i agree whole heartidly. and i don't want the same marriage i had before the A. I want a better one. that one lead to lies and deceat.

and THAT is where the problem lies with my marriage today. w wants the old one back. i want something better, more passionate, more romantic, more attentive, more caring, more in touch.

You don't know how happy I am to hear that. Last week I took mine off after finally hearing the "whole truth" about WW's PA. she must have been keeping it in her car. She was leaving, and was in her car parked in the driveway. I was standing next to the car, and she gave me my ring.....I took it, turned around (while she was screaming...DON'T, DON'T...), and throw that thing as hard as I could. We live in a new neighbourhood with houses being built, and the next day some excavators came and graded the lot that it landed on. After my phone session with Jennifer, and some speaking with people here in this forum, I know now that my anger has been getting the better of me. But, I gotta tell ya, throwing that thing and hearing her cries was the most satisfaction I've had in 4 months (since I first suspected the affair).
WW has said that she wants to buy me a new one (and re-marry me again). I will accept the ring as a gift. I have stated that "I didn't throw the other one away...you did", and "I will not put the new one on...you're the only one who can".
Hopefully she understands the hidden meaning in my statement.

i have been dwelling on buying a new one for myself. nothing fancy just a simple plain band this time and start wearing it to see if it will help get the w out of her funk. if not then i would just put it away also.

about 1 yrs after d-day the church had a renew your vows service. we attended a very big church here and had quite a few friends that all stood up and renewed their vows. i did not. w did not. when my friends asked why my respose was that i want my w to lead the way there showing me that she is infact committed.

Just curious. Did your friend know about your marital problems? And, did your wife stand up?

yes they knew. i told them i wasn't ready. and no my w did not stand up. if she had i would have stood beside her

TMTS, it looks like your FWW's A ended the same as mine, she had kindof decided to end it and then found out that the OM was a POS, which really put the nail in the coffin. I have a question for you. Did your wife still go through withdrawals?

I took mine and pounded it flat with a hammer.

That didn't satisfy me so I took it and melted it along with a bunch of gold I have panned out of the streams up here in Dahlonega .

I have cast it into something special, a golden .45cal bullet, to remind me of the gunshot wound was nowhere as bad as the divorce.

Heck, at today's prices, that bullet could buy me a big screen LCD TV!

Mine, after 2 years of EA went out two times to spend the night with OM in his motor home and have sex. one before and one after our 45th aniversary. She was 64, OM about the same. If she does it again it is OVER!

She went through her withdrawl starting at Christmas time. Early Dec we had officially separated and she started looking for an appartment. We therefore spend Chrismas apart, and I spent a few extra days at my parents house. She had made plans to meet up with him but he stood her up more than once. We figure he met this new girl not long after my FWW telling him that she wanted to work on the marriage. From the time we separate they saw each ther once for lunch, and he brushed her off then too.

So she came to the reilization that her casanova was a dud, so she went through withdrawal over Jan. She had got herself in so deep that now she continued with her plan to move jsut to prove to herself that she could set it all up and make a go of it. Funny thing happened though, she started seeing that her lie would not be very much fun, becasue her friends on our street pretty much told her not to expect them to go visit and that they did not agree with what she was doing, her mom was very upset and told her so everytime the she could.

The last week before the move was not fun for anybody, she was realizing that she was loosing her whole past and everything that was associated with it.

I rarely wore my ring before the A. I just dont like to wear jewlerey of any kind. It was always a major problem for my wife which I ignored.

I put the ring on on D-day and have not taken it off since.

I've got a good question. How many of you were completely blindsided by your DW's A?

For me, I always felt like I was an above average husband. Our marriage and relationship was envied by friends and family. I considered my DW's happiness above my own. Trying to figure out how this happened is like trying to nail jello to a wall. I treated my DW with respect and never raised my voice with her. We rarily if ever fought about anything. Over the course of 10 years we had probably 10 fights where things actually got heated. I showed my DW tons of affection every single day. I told her I loved here multiple times every day. I called her a couple of times a day while she was at work just to see how she was doing. I supported her in the pursuit of her dreams. There was no running around with the guys or any of that stuff. If I was off work, I was at home with my family because that is where I wanted to be. We were best friends and shared everything. I considered myself to be like Mr. Mom. Cooking, cleaning, grocery shopping, I did all of it. I was damn good at it too. Looking back at all this stuff and trying to force myself into understanding how my DW could overlook all that was GOOD in our life and marriage is unfathomable to me. I'll never understand why it wasn't enough for her to protect the most important thing in the world to me. Oh well, what you gonna do.

Want2Stay

I on the otherhand was a bad husband. I took my wife for granted. I did not consider her feelings much and did not value her as a person as I should have.

I knew she was unhappy. She screamed it from the rooftops. She begged me to go to counseling 2 years before the A began. I dismissed the idea and thought the problem was my wife had a vision of marriage which was not based on reality.

But, yes I was completely blown away by her affair. I took it for granted that no matter how unhappy she was my wife would never allow herself to have an affair.

Hey introvert, i was one of the guys rippin you for starting a gazillion threads!

Just wanted to let you know that i think this has turned into an excellent thread! -thanks.

Let me tell ya about being blindsided.

I went from having no idea, to seeing them naked in front of me in the time it took to open my front door.

I almost, ALMOST lost it completely and ended up on the evening news.

I've got to have at least mild PTSD, because when I try to recall the events of that day, some of my memories are fuzzy or missing entirely...I don't know if I could pick OM out of a lineup at this point...and I feel like I'm going to freak out.

betterorworse,

Thanks, I feel redeemed now lol.


W2S and BOW,

I was a combination of the both of you. I was home every night, cooking, cleaning, being supportive, not going out with the boys (ever)...but even with all that, I did not fill her EN's during the last 6 months or so before the A. I started a new job and was stressed and didn't want to really talk about things when I got home (no excuse, but that's what happened).

She says now that she wishes she would have slapped me upside the head and said "wake the [censored] up", but she didn't. Safe to say that I wish she would have too. A slap every friggin' morning for the rest of my life would have been easier to deal with than finding out my wife was telling me she loved me and calling OM at 7 am after she was awakened by the alarm clock that I set for her every morning. [censored] gutwrenching to think that that was going on right after I kissed her goodbye, and told her to "I love you...have a good day". I'm still shocked by that one.

Introvert, like most of us you are struggling with the symbolism of your wife’s actions,(as well as the actions themselves of course), Her reliance on the alarm clock that YOU set to further her affair seems especially cruel to you.

One thing I learned from the people on this board is that while these symbols represent extreme and deliberate cruelty to YOU they actually mean nothing to your WW.

To her an alarm clock was just an alarm clock. She wasn’t being "extra" cruel when she relied on it to meet OM. She didn’t care at all.

In my wife’s case she would meet the OM while I took OUR children to church! To me that seemed especially sick and twisted. To her it was just free time.

Maybe I will share that with her one day when the time is right. But for now I find it easier to heal if I can accept that she wasn’t looking for the most sick, twisted and hurtful way to carry out her affair. She didn’t care about me enough to do that, she just did whatever she could to get her next "fix" of OM.

pariah, where in the world is Dahlonega. Would it happen to be near Roseville, Ca. I am taking a trip at the end of august to see my oldest son and do a little panning with 13 yo dd. we had some fun on the american river panning at sutter's mill on a school field trip a couple of years ago. any help/advice us 2 beginners can get would be greatful.

As to the "why" my FWW said "that is what I wanted and I didn't care who I hurt to get it" and "there is nothing more you could have done to have prevented it". I had warned her again and again to never be alone with him and she had promised "It will never happen again." It really is hard to understand how a woman who has been a faithful church going Christian for more than 50 years can so easily go to lies, deceit, and adultery.

borw,,,, i have to hand it to you to even give reconciliation a chance. i kno wwe all have to put our feet in someones shoes before we make a decicision but actually seeing my w in the raw w another man wood seemingly be the end for me.

intro i wouldn't put to much weight on the alarm clock deal. while she was in the A i am guessing she was awake from the moment you kissed her good bye with anticipation.

I was a bad husband in the sense that I did not fill my WW EN for many years. She shut down on me and when I realized it I tried to reconcile. She was so distant from me that she wouldn't do it. I was still ignorant and didn't step up to pursue her and accepted life as it was. We are both totally commited to our kids and had the appearance of a happy family. However she still needed her EN fulfilled and that's how the A started. It was an EA that eventually turned to a PA. I should have recognized it but didn't and I kick myself for it constantly. I wish I had known more about how to have a healthy marriage. Say la vee. (that's french you know) Now I do and am beginning to start working on it. I am in for a long difficult ride I am sure but am finding great comfort within this forum. Thanks everybody for your support and guidance. It really helps to hear others stories and to hear what to expect. The unknown is difficult to deal with but hearing what others went through helps.

Dahlonega is in North Georgia, our gold pans out 24kt.

I usually can pan out maybe an ounce a summer.

Wanna start a thread on it? I'll be MORE than happy to tell you how to pan it out successfully!

Just popping in to say

I LOVE this thread

carry on ......

Pep (female)

I think that sometimes that is true...that the WS decides they want to have their "fun", regardless of the state of their marriage. They are usually the narcissistic, "incurable" types.

I also think sometimes they tell themselves "there's nothing BS can do", in order to justify the A in their minds. If they acknowlege that the BS could do this or that to improve the marriage, they either call off the A, or they are an even worse person for going through with the A.

So, it's the old "There's Nothing My BS Can Do" routine.

I don't know if this counts as a complete blindsiding, but...

On Dday of my fww, she was unaccounted for for most of a Saturday afternoon. We are raising our grandson, and I was out of town at my new job. I called her at our house, no answer. No answer on her cell phone (turned off, which is rare, especially when out). I call my grown daughter, who said that mom had dropped off grandson so she could do some shopping and some housecleaning done. But, she said she couldn't get ahold of her either.

Finally, that evening, FWW answers the home phone. After asking her how she spent her day, and getting increasingly evasive answers, she blurts out, "Ya want to know where I've been? Well, I've been fu&#162king [OM] for the past 5 hours."
[sound of lower jaw smacking against floor]

Thanks for the advice on the alarm clock thing. The alarm clock thing is just the tip of the iceberg (as, I'm sure you all know), but it is pretty symbolic of a lot of other issues I'm having to deal with in regards to how "out of her way" she seemed to go for her "fix".


Anyway, I need a bit of help with the questionnaires that Jennifer asked me to fill out before my next phone session. I'm going through them, and it seems that they are not really geared toward infidelity. I guess the problem I'm having with them is that I seem to want to answer all of the questions with WW's adultery as the #1 reason for answering the question the way I want to (if that makes sense). Am I going about it the wrong way? It's just that the A was so recent, and I have a hard time getting past it when trying to fill out the questionnaire. A lot of the answers that I want to give (post dday) are very different than the answers I would have given (pre dday). Can someone give me some advice on how I should go about it?

Thanks

edit:

I should be more specific. In one example....

There is a question regarding her appearance. She is a fine looking woman. But after dday I don't see her appearance the same way as before the A. How do I answer that?

cop, has your w owned her part in this? or is she blaming you for her stepping outside of her marriage. you may have had a part in a bad marriage but she had the A. and she needs to own that not say it was because of you.

I just wanted to say that I never lost mine. My FWW preffered a scum sucking coward without them to a real man that had them.

Real Men *LOVE* their wives, honor their commitments and keep their vows. As BH's, we never lost our balls.

Just Sayin'.

i think you answer that as to whether YOU have a need for an attractive w.

before or after makes no difference. if your w gained weight would you love her the same as if she were thin and shapely.

try and keep these answers about YOUR needs

Here are the questions that I'm having trouble with. There are pre dday answers and post dday answers...........

B. Evaluation of spouse’s attractiveness: Indicate your satisfaction with your spouse’s
attractiveness by circling the appropriate number.
-3 -2 -1 0 1 2 3
________________________________________________________________________
I am extremely I am neither I am extremely
dissatisfied satisfied nor dissatisfied satisfied
My spouse is (circle the appropriate letter)
a. attractive to me, and I like the way he/she does it.
b. not attractive to me, but when he/she was, I like the way he/she achieved it.
c. attractive to me, but I do not like the way he/she achieves it.
d. not attractive to me, and when he/she was, I did not like the way it was achieved.
Explain how your need for an attractive spouse could be better satisfied in your marriage.



B. Evaluation of sexual relations with your spouse: Indicate your satisfaction with
your spouse’s sexual relations with you by circling the appropriate number.
-3 -2 -1 0 1 2 3
________________________________________________________________________
I am extremely I am neither I am extremely
dissatisfied satisfied nor dissatisfied satisfied
My spouse gives me (circle the appropriate letter)
a. all the sex I need, and I like the way he/she does it.
b. not enough sex, but when he/she does it, it is the way I like it.
c. all the sex I need, but it is not the way I like it.
d. not enough sex, and when we do have sex, it is not the way I like it.
Explain how your need for sexual fulfillment could be better satisfied in your marriage.

...continued



B. Evaluation of spouse’s honesty and openness: Indicate your satisfaction with your
spouse’s honesty and openness with you by circling the appropriate number.
-3 -2 -1 0 1 2 3
________________________________________________________________________
I am extremely I am neither I am extremely
dissatisfied satisfied nor dissatisfied satisfied
My spouse is (circle the appropriate letter)
a. honest and open with me, and I like the way he/she does it.
b. not honest and open enough with me, but when he/she does it, it is the way I like
it.
c. honest and open with me, but it is not the way I like it.
d. not honest and open with me, and when he/she tries, it is not the way I like it.
Explain how your need for honesty & openness could be better satisfied in your marriage.

OK, you guys sucked me in to the club nobody wants to be in...actually a great thread.

Introvert - My FWW did almost the same thing. Left the house in the morning to go to OM house before they went to work. Did it AT work in his office, went into work on the weekend and did it for the first time there and took me out for my Birthday right after that, took a vacation day when I was out of town to spend the afternoon at his house, and did some pretty deplorable [censored] when with him. The point is, I was devastated at how cruel she was being to me. It took some time to get over the fact that she wasn't doing anything to me. She actually didn't care about me at all. It was just about getting her fix and she could care less about herself, her family, or me. You've got to try to understand that to move forward I guess. It sucks.

How about a different twist to being blindsided? How many of us really knew, but were too stupid to do anything about it until we had SOLID proof. Given what I've said above, and pre-DDay add the fact that I actually jokingly referred to OM as her BOYFRIEND because of her actions and attitude toward him. I actually bought her a bigger text package because she was texting him so much. I bought the idea that he was just a work friend she liked to talk to!!! Somebody slap me for being THAT STUPID!!! GEEZ! Blind Trust is a killer.

I say bullchit to this one, I'm with NRO. I have great big coconut sized cajones thank you very much. I chose recovery when I had every reason in the world not to. I'm doing something that takes the testicular fortitude of giants. Not because I have to, but because I want to.

Want2Stay

This description is me to a tee (unfortunately). When I found out that WW took the guy out for a birthday lunch (on a day she told me she was going to IKEA..2 days after Valentine's day, when I got jack [censored])...She said that they were "just high school friends", and I proceded to tell her to bring him over to the house for a barbeque, and I'd buy him a beer !!!!
A couple weeks after that I started jokingly referring to him as "her boyfriend" as well.

Then, one day WW and I were going to meet at the local watering hole to check out a band. She ended up walking in the door with him, he sat in the corner with one of his loser friends, she sat down with me, I leaned over to give her a kiss hello, she pulled back and looked at him !!!! HE WAS HER BOYFRIEND !!!!

Man, I'm a [censored] idiot.

Zonie, I would be happy to give you a slap but I bought the bigger text package too!!!! and I HATE texting!!

Pops, I think you are getting my sitch confused with Krazy71's. Fortunatly that did not happen to me.

But Im with you, and having read many of his posts i think Krazy has correctly diagnosed himself with some form of PTSD and I think he needs some serious help with it seriously soon!

Hey, you should've seen me 18 months ago!

Well, how we define holding onto our nutz is inherently subjective conversely; the same is true for being a nadless wonder.

For me, testicular fortitude meant coming to terms with the fact that my WW had gone so far overboard that there was no safe harbor left for me to return to. The consequences for my pre-k boys were daunting and scared me. My youngest was almost out of diapers and my oldest was only five. I had to assume both parental roles b/c of her vapid distractions.

Ensuring that my kids were not going to be irreparably harmed by her maternal abdication meant fastening my head on straight-- despite the fact that my world was being torn asunder. Maximizing my chances for getting shared residential custody, achieving a fair equitable distribution, and setting up a new home for my boys took all the strength and courage that I could muster. Looking back on it I'm not sure how I got through those days--it was probably the hardest thing that I ever had to do. She eventually started becoming a decent mother again and we now co-parent pretty well. We were married for 15 years and I think in her own way she has reached a point where she regrets the ending of our marriage, but it's too late for me. I have some residual ambivalence about my boys living a somewhat more complicated life, but personally, I feel liberated. So it goes…

Maybe I'm swimming against the stream, but I really don't beat myself up about not catching things in the past. Hindsight ain't 20/20, it only appears to be. Big mistake everyone makes is evaluating decisions based on what they know now, versus what they knew then. Why? It's a practical impossibility.

For me, I'm a pretty good person, who made pretty good decisions with the information I had at the time and ended up with a crappy result. Happens all the time.

I'll raise my hand, thought in hindsight I have to ask myself how I could have been so stupid - she cheated on my before, duh.

I thought we both learned a lot from that first time. I really though she wouldn't lower herself to doing something like that with a coworker because of all the ethical issues involved, and I certainly didn't think that she could be so deceitful and disrepectful as to carry it on for two years, during which time she actually invited him to our home to scr*w him while I was out working or on business trips.

I think maybe that's one of the big things that's hampering our recovery. She *KNOWS* what I think of what she's done, and probably believes that there's absolutely nothing she can do to make up for it, even though I've tried to convince her otherwise. As a result, she does hardly anything, and I can't help but get more and more resentful over the whole situation.

It's a part of learning from your past mistakes. If you look back and evaluate why you made the choice you did, you won't make the same choice in the future. The definition of insanity is repeating the same thing over and over expecting a different result.


Unfortunately, as many of us found out being good, and making good decisions isn't good enough. It sucks. Our W's either didn't communicate what they really needed, or we weren't listening when they did.. (both in my case) and we ultimately paid the consequences for it.

I was completely blindsided by it also. Mine was also the choir singer and sunday school teacher uber pios sanctamonious christian type.

However her toxic friend at church was bragging to her about having the affair with the deacon for years.

The toxic friend ENCOURAGED her to do the same and cheerleaded her on.

"Unfortunately, as many of us found out being good, and making good decisions isn't good enough. It sucks. Our W's either didn't communicate what they really needed, or we weren't listening when they did.. (both in my case) and we ultimately paid the consequences for it."


Head....meet nail.

Agree wholeheartedly. I have very few confidants outside of this board, but the one's who do know my sich reinforce that choosing to stay after the A and its associated baggage makes me "a better man than I could be". Their words, not mine. Beats the heck out them pointing out a lack of testicular fortitude. Of course it's situational. There are those that chose not to stay, and in some cases that takes bigger coconuts.

Let me join this club too.......


I didn't buy a bigger texting package, but I did give OM permission to call DW to talk about the music there were making(BARF). Most of their conversations took place with me sitting right beside her. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot.


Here's the thing for me. I knew all to well that you shouldn't trust anyone. I had been burned by so many people that I trusted that I actually isolated myself in my DW and family. I have no friends and I like it that way. I knew better than to trust anyone.

Silly me for thinking that if you devote your life to someone and do everything in your power to honor that commitment that they would do the same. Maybe I should have paid more attention when I watched WWE and Stone Cold Steve Austin would say:

"Don't Trust Anyone!"

Want2Stay

Ouch. Here's another one. DW gave me enthusiastic permission to buy a new motorcycle (of course, I didn't know it was out of her guilt). I asked her to text her boyfriend to find out what kind of motorcycle he has. I swear those were my exact words!! He rides a Honda... I now own a brand new Harley. Sometimes you just have to laugh.




I'm now more in the Reagan camp of "Trust, but verify". It certainly will never be Blind trust again. I do certain things now just to confirm for myself that there is still NC. I trust that there is NC, but won't ever be so blind as to assume that's all I need to believe it.

-Zonie

"Trust but verify"? I get the meaning, but if verification (spelling) is necessary, and you can't get anything varified, how do you trust? WW could be at work right now emailing OM, texting OM from her cell, etc...and I would never know the difference. I never see her work email (which she mentioned she didn't want him to "email" her in her NC letter to him...1st NC letter, and 2nd NC letter ). She could be chatting with texts, delete them, and I'd never know the difference. So how do you trust but varify without varification?

I guess there will be no way to verify every possible avenue a WS uses to keep their A going. In my case, I trust first then verify. I don't use the verification to build that trust. It's there by our efforts at Recovery, but kept in check by verification. Mrs Z knows I keep tabs on her home emails every now and then, I check cell phone calls and texts online every now and then (less now than when I used to). Sure, she could get a pre-paid phone, and use her work email. But even then, I believe a WS will slip up at some point. But if you're not looking you might miss it. I know I did.

Introvert,

It's simple, really.

If you can't verify, you don't trust.

I'm not sure about your situation, but even an entry-level I.T. guy can monitor everything that happens on any computer in the entire company. It would be unpleasant & possibly job-threatening, but it is possible to have a chat with him.

Whether OM works with her or not, her superiors would probably not appreciate her using company resources to conduct an A...if they know about it. Sometimes an anonymous "heads-up" is all it takes.

If, by some chance, they are so cavalier that they don't care about it, then they probably wouldn't care about a good keylogger being remotely installed on her computer, with your W's knowledge. The type of keylogger that automatically emails what it records to the address of your choice.

She could find a new job, too.

I know the people she works with, and I believe that they new what was going on with her and OM (OM is a customer of the company she works for). They were all pretty edgy around me ever since my instincts were telling me that WW was in A...so, I'm pretty sure those POS's knew what was happening...along with one of her family members. I have no desire to speak to any of her co-workers ever again to be honest.

I'd send a letter of exposure to every co-worker you have a name for...either via email or actual letters. Even if they knew about it, can you imagine the level of discomfort in the office?

If you think that's too much, AT LEAST do the same at OM's place of employment. Make sure that the president/CEO/owner/top dog gets a copy. Name names. Enclose copies of emails, texts, whatever you've got.

Piss on that guy. He deserves it and much, much more.

I'm sure they all know. WW used to make sexual jokes with OM's loser boss all of the time. Even before dday I asked her to tone down the sexual stuff with OM's boss, but she told me I was "being paranoid". After dday, we had the discussion again, and she still tried to brush it off. I think she's a little more aware of how dangerous that [censored] can be now (after her phone session with Jennifer), but she was so clueless to how some guy's minds work that she figured it was okay to joke around in a sexual manner with anyone who wanted to. She even mentioned at MC once that I would give her "dirty looks" when we would be out with people, but she never clued in that they were always given to her when she was acting like a ____ (insert whatever you want) with other guys....in front of me. Maybe I'm just old fashioned, but there is no room for that [censored] in any marriage of mine...especially now that she isn't just a "flirt" anymore.

Not only does OM's loser boss know, but there is a chick that she speaks with that works where OM does too. WW used to chat with her on facebook, and I read a few of her messages to WW. They were chatting back and forth about something I did, and the chick was telling WW how "BS should grow up" and "you don't deserve to deal with BS"...[censored] like that. I wish I was a chick for one day...I'd go over there and slap that POS trailer trash chick right in the mouth...she's a real piece of work, that girl.

So, basically the whole company OM works for had something to do with it, and I'm sure OM and his boss have had a few Budwieser's (this is the kind of beer WW used to buy OM with OUR money) and told some real good stories about sex with my wife.

Can you tell I'm angry now?

Breathe intro....breathe..lol.

I was totally and utterly blindsided by my STBX's choices, and I still feel the pain sometimes when I let my mind go there even though we are going the D route.

But on a different note, I wanted to wish all my brother BH's out there an AMAZING Father's Day weekend. Cheers to all of you that had the BALLS to stand up and fight for your families...even if you were childless. It may have felt like we were emasculated by our WW's actions, but the reality is that we sucked it up and made the hard and honorable choice to do what was right.

Enjoy the Weekend!!

LoBoy

We could exchange all of the info we have the OM in our situations...you could harass mine, and I'll harass yours.

I'm kidding.









No I'm not.





That's quite an idea....we BH/BSs exchange info, and harass each others' OP. I like it.

Oh, and thank you Lostboy.

Ditto to everyone. Regardless of the outcome of our marriages, being a dad is an amazing blessing--have a great time with your kids.

Any other idiot here always fall for that "bad reception" line from their WW when she stepped outside to use her cell phone?

God, she must have done that 100 times!

Funny, my reception was always fine!

Me...Class A moron!

Happy father's day, fathers !!!!

I wish I had kids

Too bad WW was trying to have one with OM and me at the same time.

Man, I'm bitter today.

No, but I took her out one night and she would say "I have to use the washroom"...then go outside and try to sneak a phone call in, then say "it was my sister" (like she needed to hide to call her sister).

Until she earns the trust I'd GPS her car.

Google "Land Air Sea, Inc.

Happy fathers Day all. Our kids are counting on us.

HA! Mine would always email OM from the bathroom wherever we went. I caught her one time when I was waiting outside for her and another woman went in.. she was sitting just inside the door typing away.. "Urgent email from work" is what I always got.

I no longer think women REALLY take a long time in the bathroom.

Brix, you are "dead-on balls" accurate. It is a blessing being a father, and an amazing one at that. No matter what happens in our marriages, our children know that we are good and true people.

The Ex's can take away money, trust, and just about everything else, but children understand more than everyone thinks. Deep-down, they know we stood by them, and they love and respect us for it.

I got a great weekend planned for me and the kids. Hope everyone else finds comfort in the love from their children.

LoBoy

Many WS's with children are doing more damage than they think, even though it might not become apparent for years, or even decades.

I can hardly stand to be in the same room with my mother. My own mother, because she is an unremorseful FWW/FOW who helped to destroy my family. She has never apologized for it, or even discussed it openly. I very nearly hate her for that one reason alone.

So, if by some chance an unremorseful WS reads this:

Someday, either your kids are going to despise you, or they will become scumbags like you.

Either way, it seems like a hefty price to pay for thinking with your little pee-pee. Idiots.

Have a nice Father's Day!

Can somebody clear this up for me? I was in the "abbreviations" thread and noticed this....


"P.U.S.H. = Pray Until Something Happens (CB… NSR... see Inspire (20))"



What is this referring to? I haven't been able to quite figure out what "Inspire (20)" is.

man i leave for a couple of hours and i have pages to read.

ok intro the only answer i can give you is answer those questions with what YOU WANT from here on out.

non of those questions ask you if yuor w has sinned. we all know that answer.

i see where you could get to thinking i loved how my w "looked" prior to A but now i see her in a different light. to each his own but raw beauty is in the eye of the beholder. if you had an exact look alike of your w walk into your life how would you consider her appearance. KWIM?

i was blind sided in the fact that 3 weeks prior we spent the night at an adult motel enjoying each other for her b-day. then on valen day her reaction to the candles in the bathroom and cards was passe. that hit me hard.

but after that i realized that she must be getting involved somewhere else. i tried talking to her about her new 1 on 1 time with her co worker and that God wouldn't think she was doing the right thing the way she was spending time away from her family.

she swore they were "just friends" and she could handle it. i didn't believe her and we went to a mc. the mc told me to back off because i was presuring her and it was like the hound chasing the rabbit. the faster i chased the faster she would run away.

so i backed off and stopped following her. the 3rd session she skipped. as the PA had started that week while she had no worries about me breaking in on her.

it was amazing. i was open with her family about my fears of her having an A. they all said you are crazy. she woould never do that. she had em all duped with her lies.

Sounds like Hitchcock's Strangers on a Train or the more popular version, Throw Mama from the Train. Criss-Cross.

When I exposed, the OM got his - OMW took all of his clothes and burned them to ashes.

>>>>>>>>>>WW could be at work right now emailing OM, texting OM from her cell, etc...and I would never know the difference.

here's the way i look at this. w can do as she damn well pleases with exom or anyone else for that matter. but if i get one ounce of a notion that she is interested or falling into an PA or EA again.

I"M GONE. and i have been very clear with her about this. i don't beat her up with it but she knows where i stand.

i will never tolerate this again in my life. and i won't be crying about it either.

sell the house and split the moolah. i don't care about the furniture, dishes, little cutesy family trinkets. she can have them all. just give me my tools, my guns and the clothes on my back.

intro,

I know you probably had a purpose when you started this thread, but I think this thread helps keep you (and probably others) in the past where the hurt is and I can't see that being very productive for you.

pops hits on something very important. Where do you want to go from here? You will not change the past, regardless of whether or not you know what that past is. You will probably find out more stuff once the two of you are able to be together. But whatever is discovered is still in the past and cannot be changed.

What are you doing to make that meeting a productive one for the two of you? What are you doing to prevent you from reacting in anger over things you may find out. I'm not saying you can't get angry, I'm saying what are you doing to make sure your reaction doesn't destroy what little there is that is keeping your M together.

Have you developed a plan that is geared to restoring your M? If you have, what does that plan tell you to be doing right now? Are you doing it? Does that plan include rehashing past events?

I'm not sure where you're at right now because your posts are all over and I haven't seen any mention about your plan, so forgive me if I missed it.

Blessings to you and your W. And ditto Brix and BoW. Our kids are counting on us!

S&C

s and c you make an excellent point. as far as i am past all this i still find myself feeling some angst just reading some of the things that have happened to some of you on this thread.

it has me wanting to talk with my w again about some of this stuff.

I know, people like you and I have been though it, and understand what it takes to restore a M hit with infidelity. It takes some HUGE huevos, a compassionate heart and very thick skin.

When we see people go through it we ache because we know what's to come and pray for them the strength to make it.

I think that's why "people like us" do what we do here and make sure that couples like intro and his W are focused on the plan they have so they can move forward. People need to heal. And they can't heal when their stuck on past events.

Blessings.

S&C

Man, pops !!! Valentine's day, MS sessions, the family thing. I think we are married to the same woman!!!

My plan......(so far, anyway)


1. Help her achieve higher self esteem
2. Listen to her without judgement
3. Show more affection
4. Better communication
5. Leave the room to count to ten when things get heated, before I say something we both may regret later
6. Compliment her more often
7. Take her out on dates more often
8. Share my thoughts and feelings with her more often
9. Be more forgiving when she fails to do what I would consider right (struggling with this one)
10. Accept who she is (or was) without judgement
11. Take time out of the day to just talk about whatever interests her
12. Be more comforting when she has a problem
13. Protect her (having trouble with this one too)
14. Find her some goals and/or hobbies and help her achieve them



...more to come.

Intro:


YOU cannot help her achieve higher SELF-esteem. Self-Esteem comes from within oneself. Too many women seem to rely on their H's to provide their self-esteem, and if you fall into the trap of trying to provide that for her, she will never learn that happiness comes from within, and she will eventually start to resent you in the future for not providing it for her 24/7....maybe even betray you again, or just totally withdraw from the M when the resentment builds up too much.


Again, your W is a living, breathing adult who is capable of making her own choices. In a quality M following the MB principles, she will have some goals and hobbies that the two of you discuss and use POJA to decide goals for the both of you and that further the betterment of the M and your family.

LoBoy

You CAN provide admiration for your W when she does something admirable, but admiration is different than self-esteem. Admiration can reinforce a person's self-esteem, but she shouldn't rely solely on admiration from you to provide her "self"-esteem.

intro i read a list of all the things you are doing for her. many of which she has to do for herself. what i don't read (and this is true with other guys also) is what YOUR boundaries for her are and what YOU need from her.

your w needs to make the list of what you need to do for her

there is another thread in this forum by "runnerboy65" titled "i caught them in the act". in one of his posts he laid out what HE needed from his wife for him to have a chance. it is one of the best lists i have seen.

it may give you an idea of what i am talking about

another small thing that will help you is to stop giving your w titles such as fww, ww fws. if you are serious about rebuilding that means you must feel you love her.. for that reason she just needs to be your "W" again.

look we all have sinned. so if your w caught you looking at playboy magizine for example and she didn't like it. would you expect her to refer to you as that porno addict all the time? and i know you don't call her fww to her face. but you need to stop refering to her here also. just my .02

Another BH

Love this Attitude since thats where I am at - especially I don't care for the trinkets.

Completely agree S & C. Well said

I don't think I'm a fit for this thread. Almost 3 years out, naval gazing doesn't look good on me.

What's navel gazing?

I've seen it mentioned a few times and don't understand...

navel-gazing (n&#257;'v&#601;l-g&#257;'z&#301;ng)

Slang.n.
Excessive introspection, self-absorption, or concentration on a single issue: “The optimistic trend masks a looming problem, which has sent the travel industry into a renewed bout of navel-gazing” (Financial Times).

Link to Answers.com

Mrs. W

Just chiming in and saying, I'm here.

Here.

Bump.

Any more out there?

I am curious on the statistics. In the olden days, it was only men that cheated. Today, it seems the pendulum has swung the other way and more women are unfaithful. Without counting, that seems to be the case here (I could be dead wrong).

Anyone know what the infidelity ratio is between men and women these days?

I think we all agreed to that 17 pages ago, unless I misunderstood the original post!

Bring it on!

i don't remember seeing anything about percentages. i don't know if things have swung from males to females cheating more. what i think is that in the good ole USA we have become so much more accepting of things that we are just now seeing that women have been cheating just as much as males have been doing.

society still tends to label a premiscuous (sp?) woman a sl__t, wh___e, tra__p, etc. while the same moral trait from a male brings on such discriptions as stud, cad, jiggaloo, don juan, romeo.

none nearly as condemming as the kindest discription of a female.

i also think that because of the way our court systems are set up that a male caught having an A that ends up D'd has a much larger chance of paying some amount of $ to the bs. this leads to men trying to hide their A's much more then women.

along with the fact that men can usually go out and have sex with an op then come home and have sex with his bw. where as women most times need to feel loved in order to perform in a romantic way. leading the bh to start asking questions.

just some of my .02 cents or lack of sense

here's my question.......

do you feel your w is doing enough and all the things you need of her to rebuild your marriage?

i an sure this will be different depending on where you are in your time line

Shock,

The last numbers I saw were that 60% of men and 40% of women had cheated during their marriage.

As if those numbers aren't staggering enough, what is "cheating" was left up to those who answered the survey. Since anyone involved in an EA is not likely to recognize it as an affair, those numbers are probably higher.

And if half of the women cheated exclusively with the men who also said they had cheated, then perhaps 80% of all marriages are hit by infidelity at some point.

I think that more women are involved in romantic affairs than are men. I think men can and do often simply take advantage of an opportunity and since some men see it as a sign of manhood to never turn down an offer, they can get involved simply for sex pretty easily.

But I think many women first get involved at the emotional level, long before anything takes place in the way of sex. I think that generally for women, sex is a way of getting intimacy and for men intimacy is a way to get sex, so the two play into each other readily.

Frank Pittman suggests that women often have made a decision to abandon the marriage long before actually having sex with another man. But they have by then already created this fantasy around a life that doesn't really exist so that they have justified what they clearly understand as wrong. By then, in their own minds, they are not "cheating" but "following their hearts."

I'm of the opinion that this is why so many men around here are at a complete loss as to being able to act when they arrive. Their wives are telling them things like "I NEVER loved you," "I NEVER felt this way about you or with you," "I can't explain it, he just makes me feel loved in a way you NEVER could..."

All of those things are called fog around here, but to a guy who still believes that love is magic instead of science and hard work, they spell doom that is hard to deal with. Thus inaction follows inaction until the couple is hurtling headlong toward divorce.

JMO.

But the numbers pretty well indicate that about half again as many men cheat as women, at least statistically.

Mark

I am only a few weeks out from dday#2, and I'm still waiting for W's cell phone bill to come out from early this month. If contact with OM stopped when she said it did I will move on and start evaluating how she is handling things at the momment. If she is lying (still), then everything she is doing to show her commitment to the M means absolutely nothing...back to square one.

My W was doing this (having sex with OM, then coming home and having sex with me) . Not sure if she did it on the same day, but we did have sex in the mornings and/or afternoons, just for her to go out all night the same day...disgusting. And, I do know of one instance where W had sex with me the next morning/afternoon, after riding OM the night before... . Makes me sick.

introvert,

I'm assuming you and your W have had the RO lifted and have had a little time to talk? How are you doing with your plan for recovery?

S&C

Perfect timing, Steadfast.

W and I just got finished in the court room. The Crown Prosecutor asked me what I would like him to do...

1. Proceed with charges, and send it to trial
2. Establish a Peace Bond (with basically any guidelines I wanted)...but that would also go to trial.
3. Let him drop the charges (with my consent)

I opted for #3, and the RO is now lifted.

As far as the recovery goes, I'm still not sold on whether she is being transparent enough yet. Unfortunately I don't believe she cut contact with OM when she actually said she did (she's yet to tell the truth about contact with OM...ON ANY OCCASION!!!). There is still a matter of the next cell phone bill, which will at least let me know if she is being honest about contact with OM now, and if she is actually coming out of the fog or not. I know if I want to recover the marriage I have to start somewhere, but I won't start recovery with a liar...period. So I'll wait for the cell bill first. We did however have seperate phone sessions with Jennifer last week, and if the cell bill proves her honesty on the NC with OM matter, I will proceed with more sessions and plans for the August 8,9 MB Weekend. I guess if she did have contact on her cell bill with OM (after the last contact she admitted to) AND TELLS ME NOW !!!!!!.....I would forgive her and move on with my recovery plans. But, as history tells me, I will have to find out the hard way.

intro,




But the fact is you are going to start recovery with a liar. She has been motivated not to tell the truth. It benefits her to some degree. That's where the wayward mind is. You need to help her out of that mindset.

Either she wants to continue her contact, or she realizes what she has done, and it hurts her to admit it. Or she feels that the truth hurts you (while some call that a copout, she may honestly feel that way). Or it may even be, that the truth causes you to react in a way the makes her feel unsafe.

So a way to help her to tell the truth is for her to feel safe telling the truth, convince her that lying hurts you more than th e truth, and/or tell her that openness and honesty are conditions for her return into your life.

Either way this is a process that the two of you will go through and it will not resolve itself overnight. In most cases, there are set backs. You will need to keep an eye on the over all progress.

It will be hard because, any; I mean any, slip up on her part, will take you back to square one. But there may have been good progress made. That's one thing your plan needs to address. When (not if) she slips or seemingly slips, are you going to let your emotions dictate your response or are you going to stick with your plan and keep the recovery moving?

Your response to the truth can be very damaging to her ability or willingness to tell the truth. If you smack her when she tells the truth, you will be teaching her that telling the truth is bad for her and she will not be motivated to do so.

So if she tells you that she had contact with OM, how does your plan deal with that? If she tells you that she is in love with OM, how does your plan deal with that?

Your plan should prepare you for the times when you will be emotional and want to make life changing choices. BTW - Never make a life changing decision when you are emotional. It will screw you most of the time.

Does your plan tell the two of you to write up a NC letter that you approve of to send to OM? Do you know anything about her plan? You should.

I think you two have a lot to work on before you decide to call it quits so early in the game. Now that the two of yo ucan be together, you can really start to work on recovering your M.

Blessings.

S&C

I think a little bit of everything you say here is of fact.

This one is tough for me. All I ever wanted from the time my instincts were telling me something is wrong was for honesty...I got lies for 4 months. Then when I get honesty, it's not from her...it's from OM...then she admits it. Then, of course I get upset...not so much that the truth comes out, but because I get more truth from OM (POS) than I get from my W. If she would tell me something honestly for a change, she will see that I will respond with less anger than if I have to find out from OM.

Depends on what the slip is. If it's a lie about last contact with OM (like I'm expecting to catch her in right now), then I will continue with my plan towards recovery. If she decides she has to make contact with OM from here on out (phone or in person).....I'm out. I've had enough of this loser in my life and I won't deal with another situation involving him....period. It's pretty simple really.

This ends our marriage.

This has been done (twice)...broken the first time, waiting to see how she copes now.


It may seem pretty harsh that I have had to set such strict boundaries, but I am tired of all of this, quite simply. If OM is still a part of W's life in any way shape or form...I'm going to step out of the way and let him have her. I've tried every friggin' thing in the book to try to help her shake this loser, just for her to call him up when my back is turned. I even went to friggin' court today to get her off the hook for cryin' out loud. If she can't see that I'm in this for the long haul (as long as NC with OM is happening), then I'm going to move on and find someone who will treat me with the respect and admiration I deserve...period.

With that said, I am committed to recovery, but I am not going to bend over and let her and OM [censored] me whenever they feel like it....no way.

Just throwing my name in the hat as a betrayed husband.

I haven't read the thread yet... I've been kinda busy lately.

Not that I'm advocating doing such a thing, but you know what I told my W after d-day?

"If I catch you communicating with him ever again, even one time, one IM, one phone call, I will f_cking kill him!"

You shouldn't kill him, obviously, but you should plan his legal to semi-legal destruction. Don't tell your wife about it.

I've got a plan ready to go in a worst-case scenario, and it will be applied after renewed contact of any kind, or if I divorce, regardless of who files first.

My M will succeed, or OM will suffer.

I had a plan of action for OM, at one point. But, WW broke NC after she heard my plan (from another website), so I'm pretty sure she would have filled OM in on what my plan was. "OM over marriage"...that's been her motto for 4 months...I cannot do anything from here on out to make her switch to "marriage over OM"...that's W's choice. I have done enough to start us on the road to recovery (booked phone sessions, got the charges dropped in court today, planning the MB weekend, controling my anger issues, etc...). Any more contact with OM, I'm done.

intro,

I have to tell you that 4 months is nothing. And of course you are getting honesty from OM; it benefits him; he wants your W! I would be willing to bet that when his honesty doesn't drive a bigger wedge between you and your W; then he will start lying and tell you that the two of them are still seeing each other if your W has broken it off.


Are you looking to end your M or restore it?

If you want to restore it then you should use the methods found here on MB. Use Plan A! Use Plan B if necessary! Use the NC letter. Use exposure! Use then all wisely!

Put a plan in place that will help your W be accountable for her actions and whereabouts. She should give you access to all e-mail accounts, cell phone records (which you already have) credit card statements, etc. If she has to call you every hour put that in the plan. If you need to get her a phone with GPS inside to track her then put that in your plan. Whatever brings you satisfaction.

She may get weak and make contact again, just like an addict does with drugs. Until withdrawal takes place, she is more vulnerable to break contact. And until you become the man that she wants to be with (Plan A), then the relationship is fragile.

If you truly want your M restored; I believe you need to give Dr. Harley's tools at least 6 months. Give it a full effort, not a 1/2 a$$ed try.

I know you might think you've been trying hard, but if you never used the right tools; it's like trying to dig a hole with a 12 lb' sledgehammer. You can pound the ground all day and be dead tired, but if you use the wrong tool, all the work you put into it doesn't matter.

NC Letter, Plan A, help her through withdrawal. If there is contact; exposure; and continue Plan A, after Plan A, if there's still contact, then Plan B (you want her to miss you when you are gone, Plan B is no good if she isn't going to miss you). If she doesn't come back then go ahead and start D proceedings. I would actually have Jennifer help you with the plan though so you get it right.

Ifyou really want to restore your M; do it right.

Blessings.

S&C





If you want to restore your M, then be in it all the way until you use the tools that will restore your M

I did call OM as he stepped out of his truck and asked him to look down at his shirt to tell me if he say the red dot or not.



I'm still watching by the river bank to see if he floats by.

They pretty much get off scott free or in better shape than before.

I know more about him than my wife does. I think it freaked him out. He's lives 2500 miles away, but I will never - ever - forget his face. Chances are, I will never see him. But god help him if I ever did.

My W claims they didn't have intercourse - one reason being because OM was possibly afraid of what I might do if I found out. Not like I'm a big scary maniac or anything!

She offered,more than once, but says OM said "no". And the craziest thing of all, I have seen their emails that indicate what she says (no intercourse) may actually be true.

Still hurts anyway, though, that she would even offer. Dr. Harley says this kind of A is easier to recover from, but I'm still sick to my stomach with the lies, the kissing and foreplay (or whatever you want to call it), the deceit. Now 6 months out from D-day. Never, ever heard a lie come out of her mouth (that I know of) until the A began (July 2007). She even lied to the MC.

What does everyone think about this situation?

Steve, your wife is a liar.

Pariah, you may be right - I guess I'll never really know. But as I said, the email evidence - emails which WW and OM thought were deleted, but I retrieved them, I'm an IT guy - indicate otherwise. I have given her multiple non-threatening opportunities to give the truth, but she continues to insist they didn't "do it". Even though I was out of state on a family death/estate matter for a time when the A was in full swing.

What can I do about it now? I guess I could ask her to take a polygraph test. She did refuse to get tested for STD's right after D-day, but said that's because she "didn't do anything that would cause her to get an STD", plus the fog babble was pretty thick back then.

PS - I did get tested for STD's at that time and the results came back clear.

Exactly.

Polygraph her. she will refuse or fail.

Insist on truth or send her packing. She continues to abuse you.

I have insisted on the truth - she says she is being "Radically Honest" and wants to follow MB principles from here on out. A appears to be finished and NC appears to be effectively in place since 1/2/08 - I have enough access to be pretty sure about that. She's much more accountable for her time, attitude has changed drastically, appears remorseful, etc., etc.

She will be scheduling first appointment with the Harleys today.

I'm definitely not disagreeing with the both of you, but why are you so quick to discount email evidence that I'm sure they totally believed I would never see? Just curious and I do sincerely appreciate your input.

Agree with MEDC and insist on a polygraph. Years ago when she briefly talked about a reconciliation that was one of my absolute conditions. All talk of a R stopped there. Since then I have independently found out about a previous marriage, a couple of abortions, another A I was unaware of with one of her professors that ended after she miscarried and had pretended that at long last I was going to be a father.

Now I am glad she didn't take the test, I quite honestly don't know how I would have taken all that cr*p at one time.

I am assuming that your wife knows the capability of an IT professional to access computer information that is hidden to most.
WS are devious.

Now, if you are assured that nothing else is going on...YOU can make the call as to how important it is to know details.

"She offered,more than once, but says OM said "no". And the craziest thing of all, I have seen their emails that indicate what she says (no intercourse) may actually be true."


Why would he go to all the trouble to be with a married woman, then say "no"? I think, even if they didn't have intercourse, WW is still hiding something else from you...OM saying "no" does not make sense. If you feel you need to find out more, you need to do something in order to find out. If you can live with not knowing, more power to you. Your choice.

I would say she knows that now...


I will ask the Harley's about this issue - I'm pretty sure I'll have an opportunity to ask. We have made some recovery progress, I think. I don't want to blow it up - YET!

You ain't seen nuclear until you've caught a wayward in a lie.

Your best friend will be a digital voice recorder in the car.

ABSOLUTELY do not let her know it's there.

intro,

Since you didn't respond I am reposting this in case you missed it.




S&C

Sorry S&C, I must have missed this post for some reason.


"NC Letter, Plan A, help her through withdrawal. If there is contact; exposure; and continue Plan A, after Plan A, if there's still contact, then Plan B (you want her to miss you when you are gone, Plan B is no good if she isn't going to miss you). If she doesn't come back then go ahead and start D proceedings. I would actually have Jennifer help you with the plan though so you get it right."


NC letter was mailed and WW's phone number changed...WW still phones him after NC was made, then sleeps "on his couch", and she wasted $30 on changing her phone #...how stupid is that. So, the original plan, that I was on for 2 months, until I was made aware that NC was broken, was pretty much spit on by WW. So, here we are...I'm on plan A again, and it is the last time. I have spoken with Jennifer about getting a new plan together and I'm still working on the final details before the next phone session. If it makes any difference to you...Jennifer spoke to WW before she spoke to me and she said to me "if your W doesn't follow HER PLAN to a tee, your best bet for your own self is to probably get out and start over". I am going to work on the plan...but WW has spit on me one to many times...if she wavers from her plan, we are done.

As far as plan B goes, W and I has a RO on us for a couple weeks, and now that it is lifted she is actually looking at me, and treating me as if I am #1, and seems like she loves me again (hasn't done that in months). I will take the look in her eyes to possibly mean that the distance opened her eyes to what life would be without me...but time will tell if that look is just my wishful thinking or not.

I am 100% dedicated to recovery, but I have my limits and boundaries, period. I understand the concepts of MB's, but I also am NOT going to hug my wife and comfort her after she decides to head over to OM's house and "sleep on his couch", because she is "addicted" to him...I think that is a load of
#%%#^.

I love my wife, and hope she is over this "fog", and if OM tries to break NC (and she tells me right away), I will understand...if she breaks NC...she should just move in with him and get it over with.

This RO that we have had on us (although hard) has kind of opened my eyes to the fact that I CAN LIVE WITHOUT HER IF SHE LEAVES ME FOR OM. She had the affair, and although I will do my part to recover the M to the best of my ability, SHE COMMITTED ADULTERY......it's time for her to fix what she did.

I will be there for her as far as her EN's go, I will control my anger when faced with "triggers" and such, but I draw the line on contact with OM...plain and simple.

intro:

You've been here less than 3 weeks, and your d-day was just a 2ple or 3 months ago, right?

You may have more intestinal 4ti2de than you seem 2 be giving yourself credit for. You also may just love your WW more than you may want 2 admit 2 yourself.

Your W has a lot 2 do 2 regain your trust. While she's doing her rebuilding, take a look inward a bit and see if there are things you do, habits you've developed, that might be interfering with your closeness with your W.

We all have things we can improve, and this time is perfect for reflecting on them...

-ol' 2long.

This statement is correct...she has to regain my trust. As far as my habits and things that I do...W and I just did all three questionnaire's and other than not meeting her EN's before she went wayward, she didn't mention absolutely anything else that I was doing wrong in the marriage.

I will improve, problem is all of my improving I'm doing now is just mental and physical improving that deminished BECAUSE OF HER. I plan on improving mentally and physically with or without her.

.....in the mean time, our copy of SAA just showed up...time to read.

It was funny though...I opened the mailbox and saw a package (knew it was the book). But under it there was an envelope addressed to me and my W with some chicken scratch writing, and no return address. The first thing I thought was "that mother@%$@er is writing a letter to ME AND MY W??!!!" I opened it up and saw that it was actually from our church lol. Go figure.

Intro,


Plan A is not used to stop the Affair. So why did you quit doing Plan A? Your first Plan A; what changes did you have make to make yourself more desirable than the OM? Did it include meeting her EN’s? Did you know what her EN’s were? Many A’s start because EN’s are not met by the BS and are met by the OP. (Not an excuse, just a fact).

How long before the RO, had you been working on your Plan A? What did you physically do when you found out about NC? I’m asking these more to get an understanding of the situation. I’m not questioning whether or not you did it. You have not talked about any form of exposure that I know of.



So you don’t have your plan completed. Sorry if that sounds cold, it’s not meant to be.



She is right! “Your best bet for your own self" would be to get out and start over. Is that what you want or do you want your M to be restored? I’m certain Jennifer has much more info than what you’ve posted here, and based on that info, is why she probably said what she did. She may feel that you may not be able to be 100% committed to recovery.


OK. But you really mean you are done? She may not be even though she still struggles.


With all due respect, this is not a “Plan B”. Plan B is used by the BS to protect what love remains for the WS. It is a choice of the BS, after an effective Plan A is done, in order for the WS to experience what life will be like after the BS is no longer in the WS’s life.

That may very well be so. And you’re right. Time and consistency will tell.


Are you speaking in the past tense or of a possible future action of hers? If you’re referring to her past action; then I would suggest that you are not 100% dedicated to recovery. You cannot change that past action, and therefore if you are basing your future action on a past action of hers, then you have already made your choice. If you are not ready to hug and comfort your wife now because of that action, you might as well go for the D now.



She probably isn’t out of the fog yet. She hasn’t had time to go through withdrawal, so it’s unlikely. Does your plan or her plan have extraordinary measures in place to keep her accountable regarding contact?


Good, that is essential for your recovery.

How does your plan help her get out of the fog, away from the source of her addiction, and through withdrawal? Or will she be left to her own devices to escape the addiction of her A? Think what you will about the “addiction #%%#^” but it is something that she will be facing. Will you be there to help her out? Is it the two of you together or her alone to do the battle?


She did have the A. She did commit adultery. She will never fix it though. She can only take measures (with your help) to protect her weaknesses in the future.


OK. But will you help her through her withdrawal and protecting her weaknesses? Or is she on her own?

I know I may seem a bit hard on you right now. Recovery is hard and it takes both people. And unfortunately the BS at first tends to do the harder work at first.

The thing is, I haven’t seen anywhere where you talked about what circumstances might have brought her to the point that an A was the best solution for her. And if those issues are never addressed, then the environment that existed that helped fuel the A still exists. And that needs to be addressed as per Dr. Harley.

S&C

intro,


Good!

You have every right to be angry intro. And you should be angry. You should also use the anger to you benefit in the fight for your M. I'm just hoping that your anger doesn't get in the way of your recovery and the restoration of your M.

Blessings.

S&C