To Sad_and_lonely.........Why are you here???

Marriage Builders

This is a quote from mon's topic that I feel needs to be addressed.Quote by Sad_and_lonely. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I am the ws. I was present for all (4) of my kids births, and everyday in the hosp, despite a demanding job. However, at this point in my life, and being in the withdrawal stage of marriage (and kids raised), I made friends (innocently) with a married woman (in a similar marriage), we became EA after some time, and here I am, asking my wife for a divorce. Not to be with the ow, who is not leaveing (but is now even more distraught over what she feels is a emotionally hopeless marriage), but because the affair refocused me on how empty our marriage was and why should we live like that. My wife is focused on the affair (and my guilt, and essentially refuses to deal with the previous 23 years, and whether we should even be married. Needless to say, right or wrong, the additional emotional pushing away is not making me feel like the marriage is worth saving, however it is understandable. I am not really focused on who is at fault for the 23 years, and we tried frequently to fix it, to no avail. What I say to her is that I think I am unable to make her happy (and folks I don't think happy is a 4-letter word), I will support her financially forever (she was a sahm), be whatever support she wants me to be (and I can see us be good friends, maybe), I just don't think we make good life partners. Fact is, I don't know why she loves me, all I do is take care of her, we are not friends, have never been, and just irritate each other if we get into emotions at all. I think mostly she is just use to me, and scared of being alone, not good reasons to be intimate partners IMO. The ow did not help our marriage in her mind, I think she did, it got me out of my funk, and alive again. It puzzles, actually even annoys me some (but then again it is a MB site, so I do understand), that the focus seems to be on "saving" marriages, whether the people want to be in them or not. I don't hate, or dislike my wife, I just don't want to spend another 30 years of this, or 30 years of "working" hard just be tolerable. I will neve bond with her, I know that, why is the assumption all ws are just depraved moral losers? Ok, the affair was wrong, and I will never allow myself to get to know a married woman that well again, but I am not a bad person, or an unethical person. It may be fog, but I do think we developed a love for each other that would have happened just the same if single (and that would then be ok, same love, just different circumstances), we are not users, or uncommitted people, we are just people in unhappy marriages who have tried for decades and gave up.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I really don't think you are as convinced of the death of your marriage as you would like to think you are...I think you are using this as an excuse to leave. You had an EA and it was wonderful!!! Aren't they all. But if you leave your marriage expecting that the next relationship will be like your EA then you could be in for some disappointment.No I don't think all people involved in A's are immoral or bad people, but I do thing they are taking the easy way out..confronting what's wrong with your marriage and even with yourself is much harder...so take the easy way out and just leave it all behind...including a wife of 23 years and four children...those children alone should be reason enough to try again and again...until you have no more fight in you...and by that time neither one of you will want the marriage...and you can leave with a clear conscience. I'm always amazed when I read a reply like your that it is not apparent that marriage is an ongoing process...if you are not the mate your wife needs then make yourself so...don't you have an obligation to change...is it only your wife who needs to change...perhaps change on your part would bring about change on hers.I don't thik all marriages are worth saving, but I do think that one that has lasted for 23 years probably has some merit. You are just looking at it through "fog" colored glasses now and all you can see is its faults. Your wife evidently still has some interest in saving the marriage...support her in that...because after 23 years you owe her this one last opportunity...the opportunity you never gave her before you shared yourself with someone else. Give you and her time and encouragement to right what may be wrong in your marriage...for everone's sake. That's really all we can expect from MB..just an opportunity to realize that things needs to change and time to make those changes. I hope you stay around and learn a little bit more.Faye[This message has been edited by buffy (edited April 27, 2001).]

I am not sure why I am here buffy, just that until my affair I had given up alltogether (and hey, my wife was not doing anything either, I am the one who tried to make the marriage work all those years). So when she resisted being agreeing to divorce I started looking around for things to help me understand my life. MB seems like a good place, the psychology feels sound, and folks are supportive. But there does seem to be a kneejerk condemnation of affairs, just cause they are affairs, and indeed maybe most are of no value. But the fact remains, an affair can be the precipitating event to a divorce that should happen but has not due to the natural reluctance of human beings to face the truth. For example, I have read on these boards numnerous stories of people who supposedly are "in love" with ws who have affair after affair, that is crazy, and cannot possibly be love IMO, but is dependentcy or a blind committment to the idea of being in love. Others are trying to love obviously abusive individuals who will never love back, what is that about? Yes some marriages can be saved, but IMO before one just says a marriage should be saved simply cause it happens to exist, one should look at whether it should be saved at all, and part of that is trying to understand why you think you love someone. I am aware of many bs (or otherwise) who do end up divorced, even when they didn't want it, and go on to wonderful 2nd marriages. IMO marriage is elevated far to high, it is no different than any other things humans do, errors are often made, and the best thing IMO to do is correct them by dissolving the marriage, learning from the experience, and doing a better job of mate selection. I am opposed to the idea of "working" at something so important as the choice of an intimate life partner, just to make a tolerable marriage. If that is all life is about, just having a tolerable relationship, then I'd rather be single. After 23 years I feel comfortable I know myself, and my wife well enuf, to assess the likelihood we would ever have anything more than a tolerable relationship. I would have left long ago except for the kids, I just think marriage should be more about a deep connected happiness, than an aloneness even if it is civil and "nice". Maybe that is just me, maybe I expect too much, but doggone it, why shouldn't we expect a lot from such an intimate choice? Anyways I have posted a bit to add my view as a ws to the mix of replies here. I am reluctant to do so cause this is a support site, but seems to welcome all views, and I suppose there is some small part inside me that isn't quite sure.

Sad_and_lonely,Your post really touched something in me that made me want to post a reply to you. I have read several of your posts and know that you are struggling with what seems to you, the "futility" of your situation.Although I ended up D, I did want to share with you my personal perspective of why you should try to save the marriage that you have. Aside from any moral and religious views, I ask you to go back and read the Harley principles and focus on Dr H's premise that affairs happen when people fail to meet each other's emotional needs. When you and your W first met, I am assuming you both must have done a pretty good job of meeting each other's needs. Hence, the desire to take the relationship to the next level - marriage. What happens next, is the gradual decline of the marriage, in most cases due to neglect (or could be failure to nurture)of emotional needs that one or both of the parties in the marriage was previously meeting. Although the "diminished" relationship may seem comfortable to one spouse, it may be in fact totally unacceptable to the other person, and this sets the stage for another to come along and meet those needs. An affair occurs more often, but sometimes the marriage is ended without another party involved.My opinion is that this PATTERN of neglect and failure to nurture in relationships is often repeated int he next relationship. The Harleys, and many other experts, echo these sentiments. That may be a big factor in why many second marriages have a high failure rate. We simply never learn what REALLY contributed to the breakup of the first marriage. No doubt about it, an affair does not promote a happy and healthy marriage. In my opinion, it offers the WS the ability to escape dealing with the issues that should be confronted within the marriage.I know that you are struggling. I look at it like this. If you get divorced, you will most likely end up in another relationship. You and your new partner will undoubtedly do a wonderful jobs initially, of meeting each other's needs. You may even decide to marry again. What happens years down the road when one or both of you begin to neglect or fail to nurture the other? You have no skills to handle this situation, because you haven't learned from the first time. Instead of focusing on "saving the marriage" which you have doubts about, put your energies into trying to learn the lessons as to why your marriage is failing, and the skills you need to either save this marriage or at least to be successful in your next relationship.Of course, then I am going to tell you that once you learn the lessons and begin to practice the techniques and build a skillset, if your W is also willing to do the same work, you would have the potential to have the mutually satisfying marriage and relationship that you both presumably had that lead you to get married in the first place. If it doesn't happen, you walk away with skills that help you to be more successful in the next relationship!Something to think about.....Desiree ------------------ "Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."Sir Humphry Davy

Yes, I understand Sad_and_lonely...You felt "alive" with the OW. My H felt "alive" with all his OW (five in all, that I know of) and I felt "alive" with the OM, and he felt "alive" with me. It's embarrassing really -- these shared feelings we WS get.Like Desiree, I am divorced, and in my case, I filed because my ex could not forgive my affair and continued on a road of serial cheating that I simply could not endure (for my emotional sanity) any longer... or so I thought. In hindsight, I *could* have, if (and it's really a big IF) I could have incorporated the ideas presented on this website better. I have regrets, and regrets suck!Have you really read the material here? I'd suggest that you go through these links:<A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum29/HTML/000553.html" TARGET=_blank>General Welcome</A><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi7000_counsel.html" TARGET=_blank>Counsel Link</A><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>What Are Plan A and Plan B</A><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3400_lovebust.html" TARGET=_blank>Love Busters</A><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3300_needs.html" TARGET=_blank>Emotional Needs</A><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3500_policy.html" TARGET=_blank>POJA</A>This place can help you!! ...and welcome to our merry band of posters...

Dear Sad_and_Lonely:Having reread my post to you last night and your response I realize that the tone of my post was slightly abrasive and I want to correct that because your post gave me the distinct impression that you think you have done everything you can do to work on your marriage.You indicate you think that the reason you are staying in this relationship "for now" is because it's something you and your wife are use to...uncomfortable as it may be for both of you. Well, that may be so, but it took years for it to get that way and now you want to end it all because you've experienced something new. You seem to feel that you and your wife were never compatible and perhaps never should have been married. That's difficult to believe after 23 years...has it really been that difficult...or has it just been not quite what you wanted?I quess the best way to explain my reaction to this is to give you an example from my own life. I have been married for 25 years to a man who for 22 of those years was an upstanding member of society...a good father...a professional man with a good reputation. Three years ago he had what could best be described as a mid-life crisis during which he decided that his old life was not enough for him...he needed more...because his old wife was not sexy enough...his old life was not exciting enough...and the new OW he found was his real soulmate...what he had been looking for all his life...so he left. Now all those things he had are gone...his reputation...his family...his professional respect...all for his new life with his soulmate...a married drunken OW on her fourth marriage who's been in prison and had her children taken away...and now he spends his life in bars..his new life.Now, I'm not saying that you will ever have a situation as extreme as this but the words he said sounded much the same as your "My wife won't try" "I'm doing all the work" Well, the problem in our marrige was not mainly me as he said...it was both of us...but always one to take the easier way out of a situation he left because to do the necessary work would mean he would have to expend some effort on his own problems...better for him just to find someone new..and go on from there. Sound familar?Your wife may have problems of her own...we all do...but right now she wants her marriage...for whatever reason.. just as I still want mine...because I still believe there is something still there between us...something that went wrong..but something that still has potential. But he's taken another avenue and I must wait until he realizes his mistake and wants to find his way back. You have an opportunity to try and correct any problems in your marriage now before you destroy so many lives...because regardless of how you view your transition to a new life...there will be people hurt in the process...and you won't necessarily be any happier...divorce doesn't guarantee happiness in the future. After all only 1 out of 4 new marriages will survive. Why? Because the old patterns of interrelationship are still the same and doom the new marriage too. I know you probably won't take my advise but it really is given in an effort to help you. Wait some more time...give MB principles a chance...see if you can make a difference...sometimes a change in you will result in a change in your wife. Years of bad communications takes time to change. Before maybe you didn't have the necessary skills to effect any change...now you do...if you stay here and try to learn.I congradulate you for rising above the usual male tendency to shun any help in marital relationship. You want help because you're not sure about what you really want to do. And that's understandable...the lure of a new life is intoxicicating...life without all the problems...a new chance. But we carry all our own problems with us into any new relationship. How much better to give this old relationship a chance to revitalize with MB principles...examine your own failure in your marriage and where you could improve...not just where you wife has failed. After you have give your marriage this one last try then you will have no doubt as to what is best for you and you will be able to move on with as little guilt as possible. For your children's sake...try again. Faye [This message has been edited by buffy (edited April 28, 2001).]

Perhaps I missed it, but there seems to be a very important word missing here....commitment. Marriage is a very big deal, especially one that has lasted 23 years. Marriage is a lifelong commitment and should never be thrown away without lots and lots of thought. sad_n_lonely....affairs are always bad....always wrong....always destructive. The only time something good comes from an affair is when the people involved see the mistake, end the affair and return to the marriage...and work extremely hard to make themselves a better marriage partner. In response, the wounded spouse then also works to see their own mistakes in the marriage...never taking blame for the affair....and works to make some changes of their own. You deal with the affair and then you deal with the condition of the marriage prior to the affair. The condition of the marriage has an impact on the vulnerability to have an affair but in no way places blame on the wounded spouse for it.In my opinion, every marriage is worth saving, unless there is a history of ongoing infidelity or abuse and there is no evidence on the part of the offender of a willingness to change. You say you are offended by that tone here....I'm equally offended by yours.Some affairs are "exit affairs"....just a way out of the marriage.....yours seems to be one, based on what I've read here. How sad for you and your wife children. Read some statistics on the effect of divorce on adult children...it is terribly destructive and leaves lifelong scars. It's a terrible tragedy.We're probably about the same age...my husband and I will celebrate 23 years of marriage this September....so I feel I can address you honestly. Marriage is hard work...it is always a work in progress and one spouse never does everything right or everything wrong. It would be interesting to hear your wife's description of things....do you think it would match yours at all? My guess is no.My suggestion to you is that you enter individual counseling for a while...put the divorce on hold. Take a long honest look at yourself and your efforts in your marriage over the past 23 years. Invite your wife to enter counseling with you and encourage her to do the same self-examination. If you do this and give it a real honest effort, then still decide to divorce, then at least you will have given things a fair chance. My belief is that if you do and give it that honest effort, you will find yourself in a marriage that you didn't know was possible....all without going through the pain of a divorce.I fully expect that this post won't be well received and that's fine. My husband had an affair and the condition of our marriage prior to it was very unhappy for both of us. We both needed to make changes and move the health of our marriage to a higher priority. When the affair was revealed and ended it was agony for both of us. For me, because the man I trusted to always be faithful had broken that trust....for him because he had destroyed his own self-esteem and self-image with such a stupid choice. Thankfully for both of us, I didn't demand a divorce and he didn't either. We both did some really tough work...looking at ourselves and our marriage and dealing with the affair itself. It was so hard we sometimes didn't think we had the stamina to do it, but then we remembered that we had God on our side and that He was the source of our strength. Either one of us could have used the excuses you list and bailed on our marriage....how blessed we are that we were mature enough to stay the course. We now have a marriage that is about as "affair-proof" as they can get. It is fulfilling and magnificent. I believe neither of us would be where we are as individuals today if we had taken the easy way out.------------------ "They that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength. They shall mount up with wings as eagles, they shall run and not be weary, they shall walk and not faint." Isaiah 40:31[This message has been edited by HGBrawner (edited April 28, 2001).]

Hey there Buffy,I haven't gotten in on a good discussion for a long time. I hope you are doing well.Where can I find the intro for this thread? It seems very interesting to me. Sad and Lonely... sounds just like my H. that's kind of scary and I would like to read his other posts. There seems to be four of them to date. After read up on his story, I'll be back.Thanks for the help, if you can find them.Cathy

Roll.... I have read everything on this site, as well as 100's of posts, I feel pretty confident I understand the concepts, and I in part agree with them. The part I disagree with is the implication that the marriage itself is all that is important, and not how the people fit in them. IMO BOTH people should want more than anything else to be with each other, if either does not (for any reason at all), I don't think it healthy to tell them they are just in a fog and need to be repaired. That marriage has nothing to do with feelings, just do the "work" and love will magically appear, it feels like brainwashing. I know who I am, and I trust myself, and my ability to understand my emotions. I do not love my wife (I care about her), I would not marry her if I could go back, and I would not choose her now if we were two single people (and did not have a history). That may sound awful, but it is the truth, and IMO it is the truth for many people. Trying to save marriages just to save em does not feel right, instead let's get folks to understand themselves and assess whether they really want to spend another 30-40 years with the person they maybe should have never married in the first place (psychologically/emotionally speaking). I am absolutely opposed to the notion that marriage is just about work and makes no difference who you are married to. I think it makes a huge difference who you are married to, that fitting must be there first, before the work makes any sense. I understand that is an unpopular view, because it makes divorce more acceptable, since in our youth we can and do make stupid mistakes, there is no reason why marital mistakes should be excluded. And the idea that a vow means one is an emotional prisoner (assuming their heart does not want to be there) sickens me. I would NEVER want anyone to spend one more minute with me beyond their desire to do so. And by desire I do mean love, and emotion, not duty, not vows. The only kind of love that counts IMO is that which is freely chosen and freely given, it has to work both ways unconditionally, and a vow is a condition. My wife has said I owe her, cause I made a vow. It does guilt me tremendously, but I asked her...do you care if I want to be here, care whether I love you, and she said no, you promised so you owe me your life. Is that marriage? Is that what human bonding is about, a contract? I'd rather be get over by a truck. As for meeting EN, I do understand that, and have most of my life by my nature. The problem with my marriage is that my wife does not want to meet my needs, and to be honest I don't really want to meet hers, so what then? Further even if she decided (under duress) to change, I don't want her to meet my needs. I know she cannot do it very well, cause of the huge psychological differences between us, and I think it just stresses her to try, I know it stresses me. I think part of fitting and bonding with someone is that you CHOOSE to meet their needs, that their is something people recognize in each other that the books can never explain, but we all know it when we see it. I never saw it with my wife, but I knew something was not right. And yes I do see it with the OW. I am not stupid, I know how I feel, I never felt this with my wife, not dating, not married. It is not fog, it is not the allure of new romance (that is there too, I understand that and have looked beyond it), it instead is a fitting at very important psychological levels for both me and her. Now folks can blow that off as just silliness, or immaturity, we can just assume nobody knows anything about themselves, but that seems kinda self-serving to the idea that all marriages are worthy, and it is just the immature people that cause the unhappiness. Everyone has an agenda, including the harleys and the bs, the truth is somewhere in the middle, and that truth is many people would be much happier married to someone other than who they are. The question is, when and should we do anything about our marital circumstances, when is tolerable ok, when is leaveing ok, I guess that depends doesen't it. There is little doubt in my mind that my wife would be better off (and me to) emotionally, not married to each other. If we learn our lessons well, and do a much better job of mate selection, there is no reason why both of us could not live the next 30-40 years much happier with other spouses. True, if we do not grow and learn from this our lives will be no better, and maybe married and no better is preferable to single and no better, either way a depressing consideration. The thing is I don't even know why we should stay married, as long as I support her financially, and meet her current needs (all of which I can do as an ex-spouse) what point is their to being married anyways? I accepted long ago she did not love me (she told me so a million times), why is it so terrible now for me to finally say I don't love her either (in the married sense)? BTW the statistics on middleaged people who have done their homework having successful 2nd marriages is the highest success rate of all marital categories, as it should be. And I agree, the benefit to trying is acquiring the skills to meet en, something I am very good at allready. My problem is not that I don't know how, but that I am done. My only concern is that being human, and this being complicated stuff, that I might be decieveing myself in some way, hence my participation.Buffy....Don't worry about abrasive, I seek and prefer straightforward feedback in life. Yes, it has been that difficult, I have been alone for my entire married life. My wife is an emotional black hole, she sucks up like a sponge having her needs met, I gave until I was a shell of a person, till I believed I was simply unlovable. She gives nothing back. I stayed 23 years out of duty to raising kids, and that is all. We have no relationship at all, nothing, zippo, I don't enjoy coming home, I don't miss or think about her when she is gone, I might as well be living with a total stranger. I care about her cause she is not a bad person, works hard, and is a good care-giver, but she has no business being married to anyone, she cannot take the emotional risks that meeting needs requires. As long as she is just doing "stuff", she is fine, but the moment you make emotional demands on her, she takes a hike. But if you need your dinner made, or the bills paid, or the kids taken to the doctor, or a million other things, there is no one more committed or reliable, unfortuneately that does nothing for an intimate relationship. She also loved getting all the cards, flowers, and attention I gave her over the years, trouble was I wanted it too, and told her so, she was unable/unwilling to do so. Instead I have had 23 years of being told how inadequate I am, and made clear I will never measure up. A typical dominant/submissive relationship. I am sorry to hear about your husband. Many men do seem to have these sorts of crisis. I am not a schoolboy, I am a pragmatic realist. I looked at the ow very very closely as this relationship developed, and she is worthy, as am I, there is absolutely no doubt we would have a solid, rewarding lifelong (remainder) marriage. The issue is not whether this affair came about for stupid reasons, but whether the marriages we are both in are as dead as we feel they are. Beyond that is the issue of duty and Christian morality. It just scares the heck out of me, that both she and I may be doomed to live out our lives in loveless marriages because of the indoctrinations we have recieced re marriage. Our spouses don't seem to care too much whether we are happy, just whether they have us, that confuses us both, and is not how we love. BTW I do not blame my wife, is not even about blame, although it can't help but sound like it, the issue is what is marriage and should mine continue on. I don't think blaming anyone does much, the issue should be, and always should be only one thing, do I choose this person, that simple.HGB.....I agree about committment, I think 23 years is a pretty good effort. And I have given this lots of thought, I did not marry lightly, not divorce lightly, in fact I don't do anything lightly, but when my mind is finally made up, I am usually comfortable with it. I do not live in fogs, I live in reality. I may have had an affair, but the marital issues were there, and I was emotionally divorced before the affair happened. Was just putting in my time (1 child left in high school), and trying to get our lives in order so we could get divorced, and maybe guilty of a little apathy and inertia. I am not so sure affairs are always destructive, certainly no more so (in many cases) than the destruction wrougt by a bad marriage. IMO affairs are part of the natural order of checks and balances on human beings. In a perfect world there would be no affairs, and likewise there would be no troubled marriages, correct? However, the affair does fall in the "wrong" category of life, and I will never have another, it does indeed made life more difficult, one can look at it (as anything) a growth experience, but it does come at a high price for all concerned. And in general, I wish had never happened, but such is life, and I wish I had never married my wife too, a mistake of much greater consequence, but a socially acceptable mistake...go figure. BTW I am not offended by anyones tone, don't know why you said that. This is hard stuff, I know that, and no doubt many of you will find me totally despicable, I understand that. I too find some of the posts by BS and others of little psychological merit, a sort of pollyanish look at life, a fantasy in reverse I suppose. Hopefully that does not offend anyone either, I am just struggling to be forthright with my feelings but not rude. I have no idea why you think every marriage is worth saving, that implies you think makes no difference who people marry (despite overwhelming evidence that marital success is greatly dependent on how the individuals fit each other psychologically and emotionally), do you really think it makes no difference who you marry? That marriage and love is something you only construct? I disagree that divorce must leave terrible scars on children, human relationships and their failure are an intrinsic part of life, and we are psychologically equipped to deal with it. I do agree how one handles relationships (including divorce) can have a positive or negative impact on others. But that impact is not nearly as important as the impact on each spouse that living in an unharmonious relationship brings, it literally shortens your life for one thing (statistically those in happy marriages live longest, I think those in unhappy marriages live even less than singles, but not for sure). I cannot imagine much worse than living in an intimate relationship and being alone, that is far worse than the adjustment children (adult children) must make to the divorce of their parents. Unhappiness seems to be of little concern to many marital (at all cost) advocates, but the reality is it is a measure of mental health, why would one choose to stay unhappy, depressed, alone? And if all it takes to be happy is to tell ourselves we are really happy and just don't know it, then why aren't we all happy? Anyways the whole idea is silly, the fact is relationships are important, vitally important, and many of them are not good for the people in them and should be ended. My wife's description may very well be different, ws are not the only ones who rewrite history, do you think bs do so too? How do you think her version would differ? The facts are the same, she would probably say I don't meet her EN or something to that effect. She claims to love me, I don't believe her. You don't love someone and neglect them emotionally (something she does admit too, but says now she wants to change). People IMO are a little too quick to claim they "love" their spouse, I think many of you are in a dependentcy state of mind, not love. I do think my wife is dependent on me, but I don't want her to be, and has been one of our biggest problems. She abdicated her emotional duties, and forced me to take the emotional responsibility for our marriage, she did so knowing I would never leave cause of the kids. As long as I did the work, things were fairly smooth, but the moment I stop, or ask for anything for me she withdrew, used anger (which was always there, and she made sure I knew it). She will admit to all of this, her position now is that she was wrong, is sorry, I should just forget it, and move forward. I just am done, think that probably who I am is at least partly the cause of her actions (a kinda negative effect on each other), and I don't think it can just be fixed, is inherent in who we are. Haven't you met/dated people you knew you could never really get along with? Not cause they were bad, just cause you didn't fit very well, was a struggle just to be near them if you had to be, would choose not to if possible? Well, that is essentially the problem my wife and I have, we should never have married. We fought alot while dating, and never bonded at all, we got married cause we just got wore out fighting and had too much history to let go of. I am happy to hear your marriage worked out, both my wife and I have had tons of individual and marital counselling, I feel I/we have done the work, she disagrees, so how do you know when to call it quits? BTW your post was "recieved" just fine, I appreciate the time you took to comment. We are not even seperated yet (but close) and may go to something called retrovaille (a marriage encounter thing) next weekend as kinda a last effort at assessing where we are. My wife asks me over and over and over why I don't love her, it does break my heart to see her so unhappy, but I cannot lie to her. She also is angry most of the time, which of course is what she always has been, so hard for me to believe I have misunderstood our marriage. I truly believe I am not good for her, and after the pain she will be ok. I will not abandon her (financially/emotionally), I just don't want to be in a intimate relationship and alone. She wants to blame me, and seems intent on "kicking" me out if I won't straighten up (I guess that is important to her self-esteem). We don't talk about my stuff much, no real surprise, never have. That's ok, I intend to take all the blame, and give her everything, I just refuse to be alone anymore, that may be selfish, but I think it is survival.Catplay....Are you still married? Several have mentioned I sound somewhat like their spouse. I tend to agree, I have come to believe that their is only a small number of actuall ways humans interact maritally, and only the names and circumstances change. So if my feedback as a ws can be of any value, I am willing to be dissected some. My basic issue is that I am not the typical male (so I am told), I am more pyschologically female in that I have a lot of conversation and affection needs, my greatest need is emotional honesty, SF is probably only about number 4 or 5. My wife is very unwilling/unable to meet those needs. The ow met them in huge amounts. My wife typically hides her emotions for fear of rejection, and of course what she feared came to pass. I am not real sure what her needs are, never been able to get to the bottom of them. But I do know my very existence stresses her alot. This is not about blame cathy, it is simply about not fitting. My wife seems to want a dependentcy relationship, yet exerts ridgid emotional control over our marriage. I don't want either, and have come to believe that we are simply not suited to each other in a marital sense, I am sure I am as much of the problem as she is. We could with herculean effort probably manage a tolerable relationship, I can't do that. I want it all or nothing, that is part of who I am. She is willing to settle, again we don't fit. What irritates me is being told (on sites like this etc.) what I want is wrong, or unreasonable, or not needed, so I guess that means my needs are unimportant. Anyways if asking me a few things helps with your husband, would be my pleasure.

Sad_and_loney,Thanks for sharing your perspective. I read your reply to me and to the others, too. Since you are going to go on the marriage encounter weekend next week, as you have said in your post, you are giving this one last ditch effort.In reading your entire post, it kinda strikes me that both you and your wife are in stages of withdrawal from each other. You may want to read Dr H's articles on withdrawal. You admit that your W has not met your needs for years and that the OW did a great job at meeting your needs. Back to the basics of this website - you don't sustain a relationship without continually working towards meeting your partner's emotional needs.I can tell that you are have put alot of thought into your current situation. Everyone does not agree that a couple should stay together for moral or religious reasons. The world is full of people who think differently on these issues. People are differnt on how they feel about the commitment of marriage - for some it is absolutely forever no matter what, and for others, it is absolutely together as long as it is good, with variations in between.I am divorced. I will surely not tell you to stay in a marriage where you feel an "emotional prisioner." I am the one who filed for my D. I had a WS who left and who never did anything towards marital recovery. I am surely no expert on how to do these things right.But, you have expressed that you want to be sure before you throw the towel in, that this is the right way for you to go. You are thoughtfully analyzing your situation to ensure that you will have thought out the consequences of your next steps.I can tell that you don't want and even object to the idea of saving the marriage for the sake of the marriage. That is why my other post to you centers on garnering skillsets. As I said earlier, if you practice the skillsets, POJA, eliminating LB's, meeting your W's most important ENs, you might see a change in your situation. I will say one thing I believe is certain. No marriage will survive without two people wanting to save it and no marriage will thrive without two people putting effort and energy into it. Your situation will probably never change unless both you and your wife desire a change and commit to taking the steps to see if you can have a better relationship together. By the fact you are going on the retreat next weekend, I see there is possibility for you two to both try something different.23 years is an admirably long time to commit to someone,even if only for the sake of the kids, as you have stated. I have only asked you to think about your situation from a different perspective. In my opinion, if you and your W were to both agree to adopting the practices and to try to meet each other's needs, you can only gain. If you fail to restore the love, or maybe in your case - to find the love, then surely you will part on better circumstances, because you will have learned how to treat other better and more respectfully than you are currently doing.Again, if things between you and her don't work out, you have lost nothing but a little more time, and gained the skills to help you be a better partner further down the line with someone else, if that is what you choose.Take care,Desiree------------------ "Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."Sir Humphry Davy

I believe when two people get married they do so with their dreams and views of the future based on an ideal. This ideal is something they have developed over time as children and through their adult years. I would hope that most people also choose their marriage partner with some thought and, yes, prayer. My guess is that most of us don't. I know that I didn't put the prayer into it as I should have. I would imagine that very few couples talk through their ideas of what marriage will be like 15, 20 or 40 years down the road. The vast majority of people get married to the person they choose because of the "in love" feeling they have when they are together. The reality is that those "in love" feelings are really quite shallow and don't last of the life of a relationship. Then you have to have more to base it on.In my opinion, marriage is about work. The problem is that most people view "work" as a dirty word. In my experience, especially over the past 3 years, it has been the most fun work I've ever done. When my world blew apart when my husband's affair was revealed, I was horribly angry. But I also had to look seriously at what I thought I had been doing to make our marriage a priority. If you had asked me if my marriage was a priority the week before the affair was revealed, I would have said yes. The week after, I would have said no. My perspective was totally different.It is entirely possible that the revelation of your affair has really opened your wife's eyes to her mistakes and shortcomings in your relationship. There are countless other wounded spouses here who would testify to that. A crisis this big has a way of waking you up when you didn't even realize you were asleep.That being the case, I do believe you owe your wife a real try at building a marriage that you both will find fulfilling and magnificent. You made a commitment to her "until death do you part"....not until you decide that you care about her but don't love her and want to find someone else. It doesn't matter how long things have been going downhill, you both owe it to each other to really try to make it better.You say that for people who've done their homework the success rate of second marriages is extremely high. That may be. But I will counter that if you really do your homework, there's no need for a divorce, your "first" marriage will be successful too. It isn't about exchanging marriage partners, it's about changing yourself.------------------ "They that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength. They shall mount up with wings as eagles, they shall run and not be weary, they shall walk and not faint." Isaiah 40:31

Hgb.....Your viewpoint is interesting, and if I hear correctly is saying that any 2 people who practice skills such as MB espouses will have a rewarding marriage. I confess this sounds like Greek to me. So if tomorrow, you and I got married (sort of an arranged thingy, don't even know each other), and just dutifullly meet each others needs, we will have a "happy", "fullfilling", "rewarding" marriage? Then why in the world does it make any difference who we marry? We only need to ask a prospective mate one question, will you practice MB principles with me, and if they say yes, we get married. Why waste time dating and checking each other out if it makes no difference? I will agree that practicing such principles in any relationship will lead to more harmony, is that all there is to marriage? There is no such thing as a person you fit in a special way, a way that motivates one to WANT to love unconditionally, to practice Christian marital love, to want to interact as MB suggest.....where is the want? It is only a matter of will, not of the heart? I am not trying to be argumentative, I am serious. I have heard your position before and I do not understand it. Just meeting someones EN = love, desire, passion, makes no sense to me.Desiree.....Your position is reasonable, and the one I most closely resemble. I have 2 problems. One my wife has asked me not to um........ be nice to her unless I will gaurantee her I will never leave, this is somewhat of an impediment to me, and a sneaky way to make me feel guilty (yes she knows me well, and despite my affair, I am a very loyal committed type person, she is using that knowledge unfairly IMO). The 2nd problem is a specific ultimatum, gaurantee her right now I will not ever leave, else move out. She even is refusing to attend the marriage thing without this gaurantee (which she found and asked me to attend in the first place). I don't fight about that, I just say I am going, is up to her what she does. I get a lot of grief from her (and everyone else in the world) re the affair, and rightly so, but even the pastors have told her to forget the ultimatum stuff, go figure.

well, I am the BS of a 19 year marriage, my WH has been having an affair for 13 months and my situation is similar to other post about the past 18 years was a very respectable, moral, God Fearing Christian and now all that has changed due to his SIN. Yes, this is SIN, no other excuse, an affair is Audultrey which is SIN. There are only 2 choices in life, GOD choices and Satan Choices, there are no in betweens. Taking a vow before God and breaking it is one sin, Audultrey is another, leaving kids is another, etc. it just spirals out of control. GOD is a just God and forgives if we repent and restore our relationship with him, but if we don't and don't make GOd Choices, God will not reward disobedience, it is that simple. You can choose what you want and then GOd will either bless you or not, I myself would much rather have God's blessings rather than his Wrath. My WH still loves his sin more than he loves God and that is scary, sounds like to me you do too. You need to find a good church with some men's support groups and both wife and you need to attend marriage conferences, counseling or anything to bring back the love in your marriage. It can be done, God is a miracle worker is we are obedient and let him work!

sef.......Well, you managed to poke one of my most tender spots. What the heck is God's will anyways, and how do we know. If this was satans work, then he did a terrific job. I have never looked at another woman in thought, much less real life, despite dealing with women constantly in my work in my 23 years of marriage. Thought affairs were despicable events. Could barely even contemplate divorce. If this is sin, then love is sin. I don't lust for this woman, or she me, I simply love her, and would choose her if I were single. I am not sure I am qualified to say with absolute knowledge what sin is, but I suspect trying to have 2 women would qualify. So as soon as I realized what was happening, I agreed with my wifes standing request for a divorce. That still leaves me with a difficult decision if the other woman would not do the same, which she feels unable to do. Not cause she doesn't want to, but cause she cannot bear the consequences (guilt for hurting her husbands feelings). Obviously we cannot continue on (interacting) if that is her final decision, but we will still love, that is not a matter of the mind, but the heart. Just for the record we were not physically unfaithfull, but we would like to be, the morals held that much anyways. Because of this I have tried to understand God, marriage, and the Bible, heretofore I just listened to others interpretation. The argument is long and will not do here, but divorce is not unacceptable to God, the point of scripture is what marriage should be like, and that it is not something to treat lightly, but it is not an absolute. IMO God allows us (by freewill) to choose our marital status, we will be judged accordingly. IMO folks who maintain marriages just for duty, but do not love rightly will be judged just as hard as one who leaves a marriage for frivolous reasons. On the other hand, I do think God does have partners in mind for us, and may lead us to them through a divorce. Some will call that blasphemy, but they cannot refute it. Mostly God blesses marriages, however they occur, I think He leaves who we marry, and whether we stay married up to us. I have prayed for marital harmony for years, it never occured to me that may mean leaveing my marriage. It is quite possible my wife will find someone much more suited to her as a life partner as well, and all I am doing is standing in the way, no one can say with certainty that is not God's plan. As for the ow, an incredible amount of coincidences had to occur for us to even get to know each other, and the degree we fit each other is downright scarey. I am a hard-headed pragmatic person, not easily manipulated at all, whether this is right or wrong, she is a genuine good person, and I do love her, and she does me. Were we happily married and met, we would have become been very good friends anyways. I have prayed continuously for discernment, and guidance, as well as protection from satan's influence. All that seems to happen is positive stuff re the ow, so I don't know what to think about this. But I do know it won't continue in it's present form. Perhaps meeting and interacting with someone is part of being human, what you do with it is what matters, so we will both be either free, or not, if not it will end. I do know one other thing, I will never let myself get close to a married woman again, unless I am happily married myself. I might add in terms of mysterious ways, this affair has had unexpected consequences in ways that are clearly positive...mostly arising out of the intense scrutiny an affair engenders in looking at why we do things, and also the effects on others.

I am very new to this site, and am learning more and more about Dr.Harley's concepts everyday. (So what I say, is based on my perception of the concepts at that time.) (yes, this is my very own C.O.A. clause...cover own a** hehe).Sad and Lonely, in reference to your feelings that some people on here give you the impression that YOUR opinion on your marriage is wrong...forget about them. You must keep in mind, that all of the people on here (besides you, that I am aware of) are here because they truly want to save their marriages. From what I have seen you write in this thread only, you truly believe that you have tried everything you could to save your marriage. And I for one, can accept that, as I'm sure many many others can too. Just b/c you didn't use Dr.Harley's methods, does NOT mean that the methods you did use were wrong. If and when you get the impression from others, that they don't agree with your views, that is because you, to them, represent the final outcome that none of us on here right now want to have from our WS. The fact that we know it is a possibility in our situations, makes you seem like a threat to some of us. You can write and write and post and post, trying to explain your feelings, but because none of us on here (again, as far as I know)have those same feelings, it makes it that much harder to understand them. YOU are the only one who does. We can try and sympathize (?) and understand them, but cannot empathize (?) with them. My guess is that you're on here trying to have someone validate your feelings about your marriage. It's not really the right place for getting that particular support wholly, b/c we just cannot empathize with you in your situation. And not that I've searched for it, but I really don't know where you could go to find that (IF that is what you're looking for).Does your wife know about MB? If not, I think you should encourage her to read up. If she really wants the two of you to stay married, she really must show that she can change, and stick to it. In regard to Harley's concepts, SHE is the one who needs to utilize them for now. It is quite obvious that you feel you have tried too much, and cannot endure trying anymore. That's okay. There's nothing wrong with that. Even as far as plan A and B and recovery goes, there has NEVER been any guarantee that it will work or not. Only that "thousands of couples have used [my] concepts and have gone on to lead very fulfilling and happy marriages". (or something along those lines..grin). Should your wife change for the better, and use those new found skills towards your relationship, then that is a great thing. Whether or not they work to save the marriage? That is for you to decide. There is no time frame to go by, each of us can only endure so much for so long.Perhaps what may sound distressing in your posts, is that you don't really want to go on with your marriage, yet you are searching for any possible reasons that would make you want to. From the sounds of it, your reasons have mostly been b/c of your children, and pretty soon, they won't be around the house anymore for you to have that reason.The views on here will always be give it one more try. But it is also supposed to be understood, that eventually, there may be no point in trying any longer. I can accept that you may have reached that point. But I also believe that you should allow your wife that 'one more try'. Be totally honest with her. Tell her that you've given up now. Tell her that you will try and keep an open mind with her efforts, and that if they work they work, but if they don't they don't. Don't put a time frame on it working or not working, because you can't. Then again, perhaps that time frame has already expired. If that's the case, then you must try and let go of your guilt for leaving the marriage. As harsh as it may sound, your wife will just have to deal with it if you do. I obviously don't know either her nor you, but she doesn't sound very open minded about fixing things, if her attitude is strictly 'you must stay married to me b/c we took vows 23 yrs ago'.So, if it's over, it's over. It really cannot be mended unless both parties want it to be that way. It sounds like you don't want it anymore at all. That you have honestly exhausted all efforts, and are worn out. If there is absolutely no part left in you AT ALL, that wants to stay, then it is most definitely the best decision that you do not. You just have to be totally honest with yourself, and decide if you truly and honestly feel that it is over.Although I may be shunned for saying this, perhaps what the two of you need to do is have a trial separation. You obviously don't know whether or not to choose white or black, so I think that a trial separation would fit into the grey area for you. Again, this is only my opinion, and only you can decide what is right for you.I do wish you the best of luck, and have to admit, it's really great seeing such a different perspective on all of our situations. I, like many others, encourage you to keep on posting. Hopefully, by doing so, we can help you to sort through your feelings.Take care, Karen

Sad_and_Lonely,Thanks, again, for sharing your feelings. I am sorry that your W is manipulating you and making you feel guilty. It does not help, does it? But, from the BS's point of view, these are the mechanics we sometimes use, because we feel that our backs are up against a wall - our family is being threatened.One of the things that I did, urged on by K, was to counsel with Steve. You know what I learned on my very first counseling session? I was very judgemental and disrespectful to my then H. Like your W, I was full of all kinds of demands. To me they did not seem unreasonable.... get rid of the OW or else! I also did a whole lot of talking to him - trying to educate him on what he was doing wrong and how he could fix all of this by doing "right". Yep, I also laid a huge pile of guilt and a big pity pot at his feet, too. I did it all thinking I was helping! Little did I know that I probably sent him away with all my desperate attempts to keep him home. I am only saying that if your W is doing things you find intolerable and that are big LB's, such as demands and judgements, then at least have a little understanding that she feels very threatened.I might suggest to you that you and your W call Steve for a counseling session. You and she could learn alot. The time after discovery of the affair is no picnic for either of you. Emotions are high for you both right now, and as Distressed would remind us....neither of you need to make life-impacting decisions when your emotions have the best of you.About the guarantee....well, wouldn't we all love one? I guess the best guarantee you can have is that you both would decide you WANT to stay married to each other and then commit to learn the skills you need to be successful. I really do believe it is the closet thing you have to a guarantee. Think about what you could have - a relationship where both parties strive continuously to treat each other with the highest respect. Little to no LBs. No more taking anything or anybody for granted! Spending your best free time with your mate - doing things you have both agreed would be fun for you. Doing things that are special in a way that is meaningful for the OTHER person. POJA. WOW! How can a formula like that not give you the closest thing to a guarantee!?! This is a tough time for you. This is a tough time for your wife. There is no easy formula here. If you stay married, you have your work cut out for you. If you decide to divorce, do know that it brings a different set of problems to deal with. Life is like that - there is always a curve, a twist and a double-back in the road. Keep praying. God will listen and convict your heart as to what you should do. You are not ready to make a decision, yet, either way. I am going to keep you and your wife in my prayers this week. If you can allow your heart to open a bit, and your W can allow her heart to open a bit, you both may be surprised at what can find it's way in. I am hopeful that your upcoming weekend retreat will give you both a clearer head and heart. Take care, Desiree ------------------ "Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."Sir Humphry Davy

You know, the funny thing is that in countries where marriages are arranged, there are stories of people who meet as strangers and are married because of a contract between their parents. It sounds archaic to me and almost abusive, but I've read stories of how great a love has developed between the two people because they tried. Because they made the commitment and gave it the right effort, they have a very happy marriage. To them, our way of choosing our own spouse is unbelievable.I want to address your comments about how God feels about all of this and what the Bible says very carefully. In no way do I want to turn you away from seeking Him, but I also will not tiptoe around the truth. God hates divorce....period, end of sentence. The Bible states this very clearly in Matthew 5 and 19 in the New Testament and in Malachi 2 in the Old Testament. In Mark 10 Jesus says "Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her. And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery against him." The only reason given for divorce is marital unfaithfulness and even then His desire is that the person turn from the sin and restore the marriage. Now before everyone jumps on me and brings up abuse, etc. let me say that I believe even though God hates divorce, He seeks the safety of His children. I do not believe God would ever expect a woman to compromise her physical safety or that of her children because God hates divorce. In fact, I believe His hatred of divorce calls that abusive husband to repent from his sin and change his ways and not force his wife to make the choice to leave.There is absolutely, positively, no way that God brought you and this woman together. He never tempts us, never brings sin into our lives. Ever. Any positive feelings about this woman and your affair you are receiving in response to your prayers is not coming from God. Go to the Bible yourself and weigh the answers you feel you are getting against His word on adultery and divorce. Go to your priest or pastor and tell him what you believe God is telling you and see if he confirms it. God does allow us to be tempted, however, and His desire is that we will face that temptation with strength that comes through Him and then turn away from it. When we succumb to temptation, it breaks His heart. But for the person who is a Christian, who has a personal relationship with Him, He will provide forgiveness and grace when they repent from their sin and seek Him.God's will isn't about doing whatever we ask of Him like some fairy godfather. His will is about working in and through His children to bring glory to His Kingdom and to bring those who don't know Him to a saving knowledge of Him. He loves His children and very much desires to bless them, but He doesn't promise that our lives will be easy and devoid of trial and pain. The happiness I have today is that much more sweet because I see His hand at work and see how far He has brought us. I'm not grateful for the sin that came into my life, but I'm eternally grateful for the way God worked and revealed Himself. He took the broken pieces of my marriage and put them back together into something precious and wonderful.You seem to be searching for something that is missing in your life. There've been problems in your marriage....maybe worse than most, maybe not...and you believe you've found your answer in this affair. My belief is that what you are seeking isn't about your marriage or this affair, but about something you are missing inside yourself and that even if you purused a relationship with this woman, you would eventually find that it isn't the answer you thought. What a shame it would be to turn around in a few years and find out that you could have restored your marriage and found what was missing too. Why not seriously consider seeking your happiness in a personal relationship with Jesus Christ....see if He doesn't fill the holes in your life and give you a love for the wife you married 23 years ago. I suggest this with all sincerity and because I know it is possible. You see, prior to his affair I wasn't sure I loved my husband any more. I would sit on the sofa at night and be on the verge of tears because I couldn't imagine feeling this way for the rest of my life, but I also couldn't imagine getting a divorce. I felt pretty hopeless. I was praying for God to help me love Him as I should, but not seeing any answer. Of course the answer was there....He had placed a wonderful counselor in our church, but I couldn't bring myself to take that step. I thought I would just wake up one day and feel that great love for him again. God certainly didn't will the affair, but He did orchestrate the revelation. He offered us a second chance and, thankfully, we were smart enough to trust Him and take it.I'm not living your life and I can't force you to believe as I do. All I ask is that you really consider the possibility that I am right. Your final choice is yours to make.------------------ "They that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength. They shall mount up with wings as eagles, they shall run and not be weary, they shall walk and not faint." Isaiah 40:31

HGB,Well said, you posted so elquently what I wanted to say but couldn't find the words.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I don't lust for this woman, or she me, I simply love her, and would choose her if I were single.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Which you are most emphatically NOT.I'd be willing to bet that my husband would say that he did all he could to save our marriage. Of course, that was without me knowing there was a problem with it - because I was suffering from clinical depression and really didn't have a great grasp on anything but how simply yucky I always felt.You know what? When he announced to me he was leaving, I died. I really feel like I died. I went to my doctor, talked to him about depression, went on medication and got counselling. And since then, a new person has emerged from who I was. A wonderful, exciting, fun person - someone who would be a perfect match for my husband.But he is certain that we can never be happy together again. This without really ever experiencing the fabulous person I have become. It makes me sad, because he will not acknowledge that he truly never gave our marriage a chance after he found the slug. And it leaves a big hole inside my heart that will take a long time to heal.The bottom line is this: You DID make a commitment to your wife, and she to you. Both of you have screwed up this marriage... Both of you should try to fix it. You are in the best position of all to do the fixing.Let me ask you this: the OW in your life is also married. She has become involved with a man outside of her marriage. How could you ever trust her not to do the same thing to you? What makes you think that she will always be the person you know now, when you don't live with her every day and share the bills and the kids and the pets and the car and ... all of the stuff that makes life complex and difficult and that makes us distance ourselves from our spouses.You ARE INDEED in the fog - the answers you are giving are the answers inscribed in the 'cheaters book' - they are the same answers all of the wayward spouses give. Why do you think that you are so different than the rest of the WS's when your words are the same?An affair is ALWAYS wrong. And you are not only betraying your wife, you are helping another person betray someone they made a commitment to. How do you think the OW's husband feels or will feel? Do you know for a fact that he doesn't love his own wife? What makes you so important that you have the right to break up TWO families?I am not trying to be mean here, just trying to make some sense of the senseless thing you are attempting to justify.You owe it to your family AND to yourself to put out the best effort you can in your attempt to reconcile with your wife. No contact with the OW - help her heal her own life by getting OUT of it - and REALLY try to save your own marriage.(getting off the soapbox now) ------------------ terri CourageWhatever course you decide upon, there is always someone to tell you that you are wrong.There are always difficulties arising which tempt you to believe that your critics are right.To map out a course of action and follow it to an end requires courage.Ralph Waldo Emerson

Well terri, which btw is my wifes name, you are correct, I am helping her betray her husband, and that must stop. I am actually relieved my wife found out, that let's the issues be dealt with. She feels the same, and is becoming consumed with guilt, but is unwilling to deal with it in her life yet. There is perhaps a time as these things develop when one is trying to figure out what is happening, but to continue on with 2 lives is no good. I believe her when she says she does not love her husband, and that he has not met the Biblical standards for marital behaviour, which she had met, until I came along. The issue is whether love or duty should prevail in remaining married. She too has tried for years to find that oneflesh, that bond, we all seek in marriage. As for trusting her, that is not an issue for me, love must be unconditional, and I love that way. If my trust is misplaced, so be it. Likewise with me, I don't believe that simply experiencing an affair means one is a serial affair person, I will never have another cause now I understand how it happens, I think the same applies to her. The only reason our spouses did not know, is that we did not know, and when I realized what was happening, I did tell my wife I would agree to a divorce (her idea for some time). As for ow, she must decide, either confront her marital issues and resolve/divorce or let me go, I understand that. As for the fog, I accept that and consider the feedback that I sound like a broken record. But that does not necessarily mean I am wrong in my assessment of my marriage either. It is a confusing place, having to justify feelings that led to behaviour that in itself is ill-advised re human relations. But humans are kinda messy, so this happens. IMO what you do about it is what is important. I will not participate in a long-term affair, these feelings developed outside of marriage, and so are labeled derogatorily as an affair, but IMO if one deals with the feelings in a forthright manner, that is a mitigating factor. Keep in mind that within weeks of realizing my feelings were leading to a conflict of committment, I took action. Btw I am not attempting to justify anything, I don't deal in justifications, I deal in reality, and nothing is more real than human emotions. What I am doing is trying to figure out what to do. I don't think matters of the heart should be followed blindly, but should engage our brains too. As to why do I think I am important enuf to disrupt two families, I can only say why am I not? If love means anything at all, then disruption is a fact of life in human relationships. If we instead say it is all only a matter of contract law, then you are correct, I don't matter. I knew when I married my wife, vows notwithstanding, that someday she might not be there, it is a simple fact of human existence. But I did expect a good faith effort, and I have returned same. But it boils down to only one issue, either marriage is an absolute, or it is not.... I say it is not, can never be, cause humans are not built that way, they make psychological errors. And when we do, a price will be paid, a broken marriage, whether divorce occurs or not. The bond is never made, and the marriage is either dissolved, or is a sham, either way it has failed. And yes I know he does not love his wife. I place a different standard on love then many, talk is cheap, if you love your spouse it will be felt, and they will know. The choices her husband has made are not loving choices, they were selfish choices. My wife does not love me either, despite her protestations otherwise, she only thinks she does, she loves herself and what she wants, not me. But I would be interested in how you define love. Also how do you know you are a perfect match for your husband? I am not doubting you are a worthy individual, but how do you know you match him? How does any of us know? Some say makes no difference, I say it makes a huge difference. Anyways thx for your comments, they are appreciated, don't worry about the soapbox. Hgb....I won't argue with you, I am very familiar with your theological position, I once held it, as did the ow. We just don't know anymore. But I will say this, no one can say with certainty what God will do, or how He will work in anyone's life. As for God hating divorce, don't we all, but that is not a prohibition against divorce, neither is Jesus comments re adultery. And as you pointed out, we all rationalize, you invented a doctrine of safety, nowhere in the Bible will you find scripture saying that. Perhaps one should stay in an abusive marriage, even die there, that may be God's plan, and some benefit unknown to us derive from what appears to us a tradjedy. That's the trouble with absolutes, and deciding we know God's will for others, obviously the concept fails under any kind of logical scrutiny. Marriage is clearly a serious matter, but it is not an absolute. I do pray about this everyday, and can only hope I do the right thing. But I am curious, do you think God does not bless 2nd marriages?

S & L,I would like to reply to your comment about your wife's 'ultimatums'. My H (WS) also accused me of making ultimatums. Hm... let me see, they were about many things. Taking out the garbage, picking up his clothes, putting things away, oh and yes the big one - give up the OW if he wants to come home. Were they ultimatums? 1 was, the last one. The others were requests. Should they have been? Yes, the last one. The others are his responsibility. Were they viewed by WS as the same? Yes. But in reality they were not. Simplistic as this scenario sounds, it is repeated over and over again, when someone is looking to justify something that they feel needs to be justified. Why? Because without that justification, it will look and feel as it is really is.... WRONG!!! An Affair regardless of the reason, is still an affair and is wrong. Justification is often done today as an excuse to do something wrong. Our children learn to do this at a tender age. Johnny took my toy so I slugged him. Justification. I cheated on the test because I didn't want to get a bad grade and make you mad at me. Justification. I stayed out past my curfew because I didn't want to come home just as you were going to bed. Justification. And it goes on. Different story same objective. My H also said he was not in the fog and that he truly met the love of his life. Ok, let's examine this. He did not know her real name for 2 months (but had sex after 6 weeks), did not know her history (just what she told him) hmm.... background check should some questionable history, shaved off his mustache after wearing it for 20 years (it was his trademark - used to do commercials), etc. He also said he & OW had so much in common. When asked, he could not really say. Did OW have any bad traits? Hmmm... H couldn't really name any. But I could, from the e-mails from OW to me, I found it hard to find any 'good' qualities and trust me I looked hard. She lied, elevated herself about others, encouraged H to leave his family, used the yo-yo method of pulling him in and pushing him away (fueling his illness), made up stories and accusations about me and to me, threatened to throw me in jail, etc. The point is that in every A (yours may not be as psyco as the one I had to deal with), there is the tendancy to look for the problems in our spouse and minimize the problems in the OP. Yes, I as the BS have problems. Not impossible problems that can not be resolved by working with my H and visa versa. But how can I work on them if he is spending time in the arms of another woman? What chance is there to better my relationship with my H if some else is already building it with my H? I am his wife and he is my Husband. Until that bond is broken, those 'titles' need to be respected. Legally, morally, physically and scripturally both the H & W have the right to require faithfulness. The Bible does back that up. Scriptural grounds for divorce are only allowed because of adultery. This is a sin not just against God but against one's mate. In fact the scriptures go so far as to say that the mate that has been sinned against has the right to either forgive or divorce and still remain in good standing with God. The ability to forgive that sin rests with the faithful spouse. If both you and your wife see no other way to save your marriage other than a divorce. You have given her the scriptural grounds. If one wants to try and save the marriage, then support for that effort can be provided in a number of ways, one of them being the support from here. You are here posting. Can you invite your wife to visit here also? There are several couples that post here. If she is not comfortable posting, she can just read. I learned much here by reading. My H thought he knew me well. We have been married over 10 years. H thought I would kick him out with no chance to return. H also thought and convinced himself it was ok to step out on his marriage because he thought, I did not love him. Are you positive about how your wife feels? I was hurt to think my H would feel that way about me. But H did and never asked me how I felt. Eventually when he hooked up with OW, it was too late, he had to tell himself I was a bad and wicked person. One he never should have married. Both he & OW convinced him that our marriage was bad since day 1. You know the only one in this triangle that did not know this was me. But God knew everything, in time I came to learn their misconception or deliberate misconception. For OW is was a deliberate attempt to justify her replacing me. For H it became a deliberate attempt to justify him leaving not just me but his family, his religion, his friends, his relatives, everything he had. Drop it all, run away and start a new life. Funny thing, H never even met one of OWs 'friends'. She claimed in an e-mail to me that she had many friends and told them 'in one day' what a bad person I was. Hm.... H & I have so many friends, most don't know what is happening to us. So S&L, think about what you have now with your family, think about what you will lose without your family and think about what you will have with OW and what she will lose without her family. Perfect love throws fear outside the Bible says at 1John 4:18, but the fear we should not throw out is the healthy fear of doing what is right (Prov 8:13 - The fear of God means the hating of bad). We should never want to throw that away. Now I would like to share something with you that I have not really shared with this group until now. My H has been out there away from his family (spiritually and morally for 21 months and physically away for 4 months). H has come home today. Our road to recovery is just beginning. There was a lot he has learned and did not realize how far away he had gone. The pain and guilt he has heaped upon himself is almost unbearable. He is in awe of the fact that his family is still here. He was on the verge of losing us. Our family has been given another chance. Anyone of us can blow it. Please consider all the words here. Many of us would like to opportunity to work on our marriages. They are not as bad as we seem to think and sometimes our thinking could be wrong. Ask God to make sure you have given it your all, the real all. You will know when you have done this when your heart is at peace and you know there is no more you can do. Take Care and thanks for reading this loooong post. L.

Dear Sadandlonely:Well, my question was asked and answered and I for one can accept your answer. Surely the amount of thought you have put into this matter is indicated in your posts. Yes, a marriage can reach a point were there is little reason to go on...perhaps yours has. I agree with some of your feelings about missing an emotional connection with your wife as I have experienced that too..and I too have wondered if this man I married was capable of having an intimate relationship with anyone...not just a sexual relationship but an intimate, opening yourself up and letting the other person really know you type relationship. No, to me he was just all physical..but without any real emotional depth. I say this because since being here I have learn that I was seeing things from my perspective...a very limited one based on my own narrow view of how a man should express love and emotions. I've found that our thought processes are circuitous and they feed upon themselves. One rationale building upon other until the picture is complete...the picture of the other spouse..the uncaring, unsupportive, un....un...all the uns in the world...all colored in by me. I could not envision my being wrong or failing to take anything into account...until I was faced with a world of others here telling me I was mistaken...not wrong, just mistaken...and on that mistake I had predicated my whole view of how things should be. You've built up a good picture for yourself of your wife, too. I wonder how much fallacy there is in your interpretation. Certainly enough to wonder if you could just be a little mistaken. But you don't want to be wrong, you want this marriage to end...and you're looking for reasons for it to do so. I wonder how much of the thought you have given this matter was done before you had the EA.I know now why you are here...you are a very moral man wrestling with your own devil...but the devil is inside you...the devil is you.Yes, you want this other relationship because you feel it gives you what you've been missing...but it's easy to say that when the relationship has not stood any test of time...a few brief encounters and long discussions (during which each of you presented your best faces) are not enough to base a decision like this on. Only time will tell whether you failed to make the right interpretation about the OW. This is the reason As are useless as a method of mate selection...by their very nature they don't allow you the type of constant interaction that can give you a true picture of what this person really is...but the best foot forward, idealized, rose-colored glasses mindset is more conducive to setting OW up as "soulmate" then down in the dirt, this is really the way it is, everyday marriage. I will bet though that that best foot forward closely meets your expectations of a perfect mate. And we all have one..based on our life experiences from childhood.We all want that perfect mate...molded to our own specifications...but as you said...humans are messy...and sometimes our specs are too narrow and unrealistic...or just plain unworkable with the material we have. So perhaps we need to readjust our expectations to reality and work a different way with what we have. You seem to feel that devoting thought and reason to this matter will deliver you an answer that you can live with...but this is not a matter that you can settle all by yourself by reasoning your marriage away. There seems to be a big lack of imput by your wife...have you just shut her out and quit trying to understand how she feels...really understand...not just give it your own interpretaion.Ok, I think you have done a good thing by coming here...just do one thing for us...really listen to what is being said here...look at what your major complaints are with your wife...ask some questions about how others feel about those complaints...get some input from someone else...you know what you feel...listen to what others feel...really listen with an open mind...don't just read and then try to convince the other person that he's wrong...no one is all wrong...and no one is all right.You don't have anything to lose right by investing some time here...and alot to gain. Faye

Buffy.....Let me ask you the same question I ask others but can't seem to get answered to often, why is there the mindset that a marriage must be saved at all cost? That somehow a unfullfilling marriage is just about being selfish, and/or having too high a standard. Why does it seem love (as in bonding) is unimportant? Yes, I have no doubt contributed to our disharmony. If I had been the perfect (or at least better) husband, maybe I could have found that bond for us (I feel guilty about that since I am supposedly the stronger emotional partner in our marriage, and I am). But I have come to believe that that bond is not just something you make, that in fact many marriages are just satisfactory accomodations, never deep bonding. Is it wrong to want that, and leave a marriage where it won't happen? Even if that marriage could be improved and made comfortable, am I allowed not to choose more just cause I married wrongly in my youth, marriage must be a life sentence? What about her, and the mask she wore while dating, and the promises she made to change, I am the prize, she got me to say I do, and now is forever? That is what I see in many marriages, a needy partner who managed to marry a more stable partner, who then out of guilt and misguided ethics stays with someone who will never love em right forever, not very fair is it. The whole idea of what marriage is and should be conflicts me greatly these days. I can do everything my wife "needs" as her ex-spouse, why does she need to wear my ring? I know these questions make many of you think I must be a total jerk, I almost feel the same way myself, but I know they are fair questions, and I must find the answers before I can proceed. Btw, this is not about choosing the ow, as I have said, she is totally unavailable, and I know she will not change. This is about whether I choose my marriage or not. In the 2 months since discovery my wife has done little but heap unrelenting condemnation and criticism on me (while telling me has changed) as she always has whenever she did not like what I was doing (which has been quite often in 23 years, she is verbally and emotionally abusive, admits to it when told so by counsellors, but never changes), why should I try anything? Today she came in as I was typing this, started telling me in her inimitable way (has all her evidence, and a list of all the people who agree with her) again how defective I am. Yesterday I did not respond to her perception of how a spouse should act (her father who is chronically ill, is in the hospital and not doing well). She is right I did not, I am having a difficult time, and have for many years, extending much affection/sympathy toward her. I did try to express some concern, mostly I just try to remain emotionally neutral around her so I won't get yelled at for not doing the right thing. She spent 4 hours last night telling me how inadequate I was, and how could I be so insensitive (and yes I took it all without a peep of protest). I said I was sorry, and tried to act a little more sympathetic, but it too was inadequate and I was criticized for effort. This morning she came in and started again, proceeding to tell me how she discussed this with our 19 yo daughter, and how she could not understand me either. I asked her to stop talking to me, and leave me alone. She kept going on and on (she never shuts up). I have asked her repeatedly not to talk disparagingly about me to kids (she has ignored me). I accused her (as she started to try and put a better spin on it, as she does when she finally gets me angry about something). I accused her of trying to turn the kids against me, and said get out of my room. She refused to leave, and KEPT talking. I pushed past her, and went outside to leave (I was getting real angry) she chased me and jumped in my truck. So I decided to just walk out in the feilds, and told her to get her *expletive* self away from me (yes I had lost it by then, I rarely insult/cuss at her, but I did today). She chased me further, so I went back to house, to go back to my room, she chased me there. All the time saying we gotta talk, me saying (very loudly) I don't want to talk, get the hell away from me. So I go back out to front door (gonna try truck again, maybe can get doors locked). She blocks the door, I move her aside, not hurtfully but forcefully (she is 150, I am 250, not much of a contest). I go to truck, she grabs me and tries to jump in drivers side (yes folks, this had degenerated into something surreal, was like a bad dream, all I wanted to do was leave and get some peace to calm down). So I left truck and tried to go out in fields again, she followed (still talking), I turned around to go back to truck, she blocked my path saying we gotta talk, so I shoved her...hard. She fell on her butt and started wailing like....like, like....well you all probably know. You could hear her for miles, I just gritted my teeth and left (I knew she was not hurt, the grass was soft). I felt awful, but I am really really angry too ( I did not need her in my face), this has been the story of our life, it is allways about her, never about me. So now I got more guilt to deal with ( I have never hurt her, and I won't, but this is no good), and no doubt she will tell all her friends and relatives how abusive I am as soon as she possibly can...*sigh*, I am contemplating whether I should just pack and leave now. This is not about the affair, it is how it has allways been, the affair just gives her more ammunition. So anyways, if any of this is helpful for those of you who deal with your husbands this way, my advice, when he says he does not want to talk.....then don't, and do not get in a males face....ever. As for being critical/judgemental, well I guess we all know how we should talk to each other. If I feel up to it, I will respond to the other stuff you and orchid said, right now I am not up to it. BTW I am mostly an understanding laid back person, I am intellectually aggressive, but that is all. It is my responsibility for pushing her, I know that, and I am not happy about it.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely: Buffy.....Let me ask you the same question I ask others but can't seem to get answered to often, why is there the mindset that a marriage must be saved at all <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>No, I'm not Buffy, but I'd like to answer.Because you are at MARRIAGE BUILDERS. Period. That's what this site is all about.That said, I am divorced. I couldn't save my marriage. I tried, and failed. So, here's what I'm doing...Trying to have a decent relationship with my ex-H.Using what I've learned to have an awesome marriage next time.Some have said that I am wrong, I could have saved my marriage had I stuck with it longer...and some have said that I am right, my ex was never gonna change, plus at the end, before the divorce was final, I'd met someone else, which of course sealed the divorce for me (in their opinions)... most though, have said that they support me because they saw how hard I tried.You've been here for a couple of weeks. Not long enough to call it quits... No, not all marriages can or should be saved, in my opinion. But you have to try until you can't any more. If you've already hit that point (which would be sad since you haven't really used the concepts here for long) then that's where you are!! If that is the case, then divorce her. But really, since you're still here talking to us, I'd bet you aren't ready to really call it quits -- or you WOULD HAVE ALREADY.

Sad_and_lonely,Is it possible that you THINK you are meeting your W's needs, but really aren't? And the same for your W? What is clear is that doing what you both are currently doing - in terms of your interactions - is NOT going to bring you both a fulfilling marriage. Something has to change for your relationship to change. How about if you and your W try to meet each other's needs in a way that is important and special to the other? Again, I will tell you that I am guessing that you both think you are being a great partner to the other, but are both potentially missing the mark.Please do consider counseling with one of the Harleys. If you both change your interactive style, you both might find your relationship begins to change for the better.Take care, Desiree------------------ "Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."Sir Humphry Davy

Dear sad, I am younger than you in age and marriage, so I would not presume to give you advice. I will say your wife sounds scared to death and for someone who wont admit to emotional needs, the need for security must be on the list if she is willing to keep you in spite of the A. She also cant understand why "you dont love her" and she is as you said the most reliable, good mother, responsible, etc. It is evident to me you respect her greatly, and she must see something she doesnt want to loose in YOU, since as you said you would still pay bills etc. What would she loose if you left? What is it she doesnt want to loose? What does she have now? A husband that wont say he loves her, who put his needs above hers, who put her second to another. I am not making a moral judgement of you Im just asking what is it she is loosing? Maybe she see's something in you that you dont see, maybe you are meeting a need you dont know about. Let me try to say it this way. When my husband wants to show me he loves me he washes my car. I could care less if my car was always dirty, I think "why is he wasting time washing the car when he could be spending quality time with me" We are speaking different languages. When your wife says "why dont you love me" maybe she is saying, I am reliable, a good mother, a good steady person, a good cook,... What more could I do to show you I love you? She doesnt have a clue what you need. You say she does not like to show or have emotional needs. Maybe now is the time to ask what they are, it is evident she is not in control of her life now and feeling vulnerable maybe now she could explore them since its evident she has them. I know you have put a lot of thought into this and are probably wiser than I in the ways of life, I am in no way judgemental of you, but from your posts I see love for your wife and respect, am I wrong? Please dont withold yourself. I also think youu and the other lady feed into each others miserable thoughts of marriage, who has tried harder, who's life is deader, who has been most hurt.... Who cares - do you want to be right or happy? I have only been married 4 years (together 7) I know I have a lot to go through, and most people here have been married a long time and children are older (2 toddlers), but maybe since I am niave I can see something you dont. I have been wrong before, again and again. Good luck in whatever you do.

Could I ask a humble question?Why the heck did you not talk to her when she wanted to talk? Why did you lead her through yards and fields and leave her crying (maybe she was crying because REALLY wanted to talk, not because she wanted to put on a show. Maybe it really hurt her terribly to be rejected by you.)Was she really tearing you down, or was that the way you perceived it?Did you have a real reason to be angry with her, or were you just angry because she confronted you?I am not asking you these questions to make fun of you--I am wondering because my husband does the same thing.I am troubled about something, usually about him, yes I will admit, because nothing else in the world really troubles me that much, and silly me, I just assume that I could turn to my spouse to talk, for feedback or suggestions, or just to talk. I walk into a room where he is, and I feel like the air could be cut with a knife, because I am invading his space. He is immediately angry with me, because I am taking up his time to "b*tch" at him. I am "criticizing" him. I am being unpleasant because I don't see the world as being perfect--(gosh, forever me for having a discrepency in life to work through.) It doesn't matter how gently I approach him or how carefully I word what I have to say (it makes him even madder if I do that--it means that I am "skulking around him" to make him angry.)I say "We need to talk." Immediately, he goes on the defense. He says everything he can to hurt me because he is pissed (about what?) The more I try to talk, the angrier he gets. And then he a) thinks up the most terrible things he can, whether true or not, to say to me b) tells me that I am crazy and out of control (he should look in the mirror) c)tells me to get out of his face d) laughs at me for crying, or tells me that I am a maniac, or trying to put on a show for the neighbors e) leaves.Nothing is accomplished, nothing is communicated. The conflict is never resolved, only avoided, so that it may grow deeper and deeper and uglier, for the next time. The only thing that happens is rage, and it's my fault for provoking him. Always my fault.My husband, too, had an affair because our marriage was "dead." (I did not think it was, in fact, I had no idea.) He says he "cares" about me now. His job and the kid are the only things he "loves." I am just part of the package.Am I feeling sorry for myself? No, but I am filled with grief because my husband rejects me. He feels he has an obligation to stay with me, but he doesn't have to love me and that's the way it is. Do you know how that feels? I feel like garbage sometimes, and it is so hard not to take rejection, especially from your spouse, personally. I mean, duh. . .If he had some faith, if he would just take it one step further and listen, if he would open his heart and try to see me for what I am, then I am sure that he would love me. But he doesn't want to. He is convinced that I am out to get him, and take his money, harass him, turn his kid against him, destroy his career. Or something. He refuses to see me in any other way--I guess that would ruin the way he sees the world and we can't have that, now can we?Bus mostly it's the anger. He decides that I am confronting him when I just wish to communicate. God forbid that we actually ever put our heads together to accomplish something--he decides that I am trying to control him and that makes him angry. He will never just "talk" to me.The only thing is--I have only been married to him for seven years.And, after almost a year of separation, he asked me to come back to him.I told him that I would not do it unless he commited to healing the marriage--unless he loved me.He replied that he "cared" about me. And he didn't want to see me on welfare and having his kid live in the projects.I told him to forget it--I would rather live in the projects than be miserable, being dependant upon someone that despises me. To be used for sex and that's as far as marital duties go for me.So anyways, here I am back with him--and now he says that I am picking on him all the time (Because I would like to discuss his infidelity in order to heal and get over it and be able to trust him. Because I would like to know why he engages in sexual activities on the internet. Because I would like to know why he ignores me and refuses to talk to me, look at me, goes out of his way to play with the kid and chat with women on the net, but pushes me aside.) I am picking on him, he says. I say, to myself, he is guilty and trying to push it under the rug and using me as a scapegoat.It tears me up, it breaks my heart. (He says I am just feeling sorry for myself.)If we were married for 23 years, I think that our marriage would be like yours, with me "b*tching" and him blowing me off. It would be irreconcilable. I would try to end it, too.Other people tell me that I am unassertive to a crippling fault--shy and quiet, that I seem to lack self-esteem. But I work hard, never complain, am giving of myself, charitable. I am told that I am intelligent and thoughtful. Kind to other people, a good friend, a good listener. That's what I am told--by everyone but my husband. To him, I am selfish and a villian.Other men tell me that I am pretty, even beautiful, but my husband has always told me that I would cheat on him and that all I try to do is trap men and use them for whatever they can give me. He has threatened me against cheating on him, defining the consequences of my doing so. Even after his affair, he still does. So tell me, did I make a huge mistake in coming here, back to him? It sure doesn't sound like my marriage can be saved, does it? Nevertheless, I am here, living in our house, hoping someday he will love me the way that I long to be loved. Maybe that's futile.But it can never happen unless we talk--and he refuses to do even that.So tell me, am I stupid?

This is me again, SEF, All I can respond to you is make your own "Free Will" (Satan) choice and see what happens. Ask Adam and Eve about their Choice, ask Jonah about his choice, ask Cain/Abel about their choice, ask David about his choice then also look at the result of their choice. You can do what ever you want,but YOU are not in control, the Almighty God is and was and no matter, he will get the result that he wants, you will reap the consequences of your bad choices, we all do and will. So my true feelings are that you must be not completely sure of the right thing to do or you would not post here. Just remember, God is a just God and be prepared for the worse if you are a Christian and don't do what God Wants you too. Good Luck! Let us know if you are happy a year from now????

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by SEF: This is me again, SEF, All I can respond to you is make your own "Free Will" (Satan) choice and see what happens. Ask Adam and Eve about their Choice, ask Jonah about his choice, ask Cain/Abel about their choice, ask David about his choice then also look at the result of their choice. You can do what ever you want,but YOU are not in control, the Almighty God is and was and no matter, he will get the result that he wants, you will reap the consequences of your bad choices, we all do and will. So my true feelings are that you must be not completely sure of the right thing to do or you would not post here. Just remember, God is a just God and be prepared for the worse if you are a Christian and don't do what God Wants you too. Good Luck! Let us know if you are happy a year from now????<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>First of all, SEF, ANYONE is WELCOME to post here -- no matter where they are in their struggle.Secondly, I do not want to get in a religious debate with you, but the things you say are so judgemental that it makes me cringe when I read it. And before you wonder, I am a Christian, and I am saved -- although I struggle with choices daily... but thankfully, God is merciful and loving... and He knows my heart -- JUST AS HE KNOWS sad_and_lonely's heart. Remember, Judge not, that ye be not judged. Mat. 7:1 ------------------ ~Sheryl (a bit worse for the wear, but hanging in there)Life is difficult. The Road Less Traveled ~M. Scott Peck

No bernzini, you are not stupid. Plz keep in mind too as all share stories here, and I do believe there are many similarities in behaviour, that we still all are different too. Without hearing your husbands side is hard to know, but does sound unreasonable on his part. I suspect you both could benefit from competent counselling, seems most of us could. I am not a competent counsellor, but I will offer my thoughts for you to do with as you will. We all have a tendency to push our views on others, especially when we "know" we are right. It is very hard not to do that, the more one does it, the more likely conflict will ensue, whether one is right or not. I think the basis of MB is to affect change by actions, not persuasion, I think that is the right way to go in relationships of all kinds. I suspect you may feel right, may even be right, but what your husband hears is he is inadequate, and will never live up to your standards, that triggers defensive actions in even the most reasonable of people (and most of us are not all that reasonable in the first place). Let me clarify something, I do not refuse to talk. If anything I talk more than my wife, and I do listen, fairly well I think. My problem (as verified by 3rd party counsellors) is that my wife does not back down on anything, and will not stop until she has verbally beat you into submission. I hear her, she does NOT hear me. So our pattern is that I get berated till she runs out of steam, I say little or nothing (else the abuse lasts longer), and we then go back to ignoring each other, and I have maybe complied in some way she wanted (to keep some semblance of peace), makes no difference to her my feelings about it. I would guess the tension you describe, and the rage, are the results of all the miscommunication. The good news is, if folks are motivated, communication issues are readily solvable, is just technique, does not involve much emotion, or solutions, or anything, just exchanging info with anyone, spouse or otherwise. I wonder if your "discussions" about him sound like he needs to be "fixed" and you know just how to do it? I am sorry for the responses you get a-e, you do not deserve that, and yes I have already apologized (a little while ago) to my wife for calling her names, and pushing her, interestingly she had nothing to say about her behaviour, so is all my fault I assume, and there you have it, the cycle continues. I just need to be fixed. I do not do the stuff your husband does, I only ask for space when I feel myself getting really angry. I do listen to her (for hours and hours and hours lately), but geez louise there has to be a limit somewhere doesn't there?You mention in your post you are shy and unassertive, keeping in mind I only know you from that post, I saw something different. I saw a powerful personality, who is using devious (maybe that passive agressive stuff) tools to try and construct the marriage she wants. Guilt is a powerful weapon, and I sensed you project it a lot. This is especially damaging to men who do feel responsible and such, we come to resent being manipulated this way, using our natural desire to protect/care you as a weapon to control us, remake us. After a while the whole thing becomes kinda toxic and the marriage dies, I think. MB deals with this stuff pretty good I think, hopefully it will help you while there is still time. Your husbands behaviour does sound extreme, and nothing like I behave, so I don't know what can be done, you sound like a nice person, but even nice people can have very damaging behaviours. I don't know, but maybe you bring the worst out in each other, or maybe your husband is not worthy of your love, in any event, you must learn to communicate first, and your husband must be willing to try, otherwise I would leave. My marriage was not that toxic, I am unhappy and dis-illusioned but I do not abuse my wife, and treat her respectfully (if distantly) most of the time. Your husbands behaviour is abusive, and needs to stop.You asked why wouldn't I talk. I do, all the time. But times are very volatile right now, and my capacity to listen got exceeded, I would have let her explain later, and in fact I have already done so. We do not normally talk this way, but lately if I get upset and try to get space, she won't let me go, she gets kinda frantic, tries to "fix" the conversation. I think she is afraid I won't come back. If someone had written a book on how best to drive your husband away, she would be the model. This upsets me as well, I not only have to deal with myself, I must be "understanding" and forgiving of her, do her work too. I am sick and tired of doing the emotional work for both of us, that is how we got here in the first place, and sure is not going to keep me here, it is what I am trying to escape, it is drowning me. I do not want a needy clingy (psychologically speaking) wife, I never have. I want a partner. I want a wife who would be just fine, with or without me. Does anyone understand what I am saying? I don't want to be her parent.

Sad and Lonely - I've read your posts as best I can. I have some problem with long posts not broken out in paragraphs (old age I guess [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

[Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

). My H and I had been married 24 years when he told me the same things about me that you have said about your wife. And you know what? It was true. I had dedicated myself to paying bills, taking care of the house, keeping up with the kids and their schedules. I took care of everything but him. I always felt like "he would be there" when the kids were gone and we had time for each other. While I felt like I was "loving" him by taking care of all these other things, inside I festered (unknowingly) and harbored resentment because I felt like it all fell on my shoulders. He truly felt unloved and so did I. We didn't have a good marriage. We kept saying he always wanted to be my "friend" no matter what. He also found an inappropriate friendship which "opened his eyes" to what life could be with someone. I can't blame him for feeling wonderful. I can remember thinking sex was just "one more thing" I had to do before getting some rest. How wrong I was to take my marriage for granted the way I did.After a year and a half of getting nowhere, heated discussions, therapy, etc. I left. Like Terri said in her post, I felt like I had died that first night away. This is the same person who was always glad for him to go on fishing trips, etc. We worked at being friends again for a long time. We spent time together and eventually he transferred with his job. Once again I felt like part of me died. Eventually I transferred with my company and we bought a new home and started over. We have a good marriage and we are happy now. It isn't perfect and all this took its toll on our children, especially our youngest son. That is another story. But we got it back.

Hello S&LYou won't be familiar with my name, but I use to fill these boards up quite a bit some time ago...as I was very deeply involved with another married woman...who I fell in love with...NOT 'lust'....just like you.No one...will ever convince me that we were not the 'perfect fit'...with the exception of one minor detail. We had both pledged our lives to other people for the rest of our lives, 'until death do us part'.It struck me as one of the most painful tragedies I have ever encountered. (Some would say I've lived a sheltered life! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

)I'm the last person in the world...that I, my wife, my kids, and many who knew me...would have ever thought...I could have ended up in the place I did. But it happens. Every human heart, as flawed as it, can get pretty needy...and incredibly intoxicated...with the right kind of love and attention...at the "right time"...in our life.I might have missed some of the details of your post...(you write almost as lengthy and detailed post as I have in the past [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

)...but is this OW...still 'in the wings' and a potential partner if you break out of your marriage? I would be certain that if she is...then this will certainly 'cloud' your judgement and decision making process. I can't say that my marriage of 20 years was as 'poor' as yours apparently seems to be to you at this time, but any marriage can be ignored...and hence...grow cold and stale. And when someone else comes along and warms that empty, chilled heart like my 'friend' did...and your "OW" has, then the idea of trying to work on the existing marriage is one of the least attractive, most unappealing choice...you can ever imagine having to make. And I think only a WS who is in that place...can truly relate and understand that statement...as cruel as it may sound.Just want to toss out two quotes...that have sunk deep into me...that have helped me pursue...the 'higher road'.One was regarding the myth of the 'greener grass'..."The grass is NOT always greener on the other side of the fence...it is greener...where ever it is watered!"The other quote...that has rung hauntingly as a warning to me is:"You will never find happiness...at someone elses expense!"I am 41...married...three wonderful daughters. I can hear your heart, friend. If you need someone to email and visit with...I would be glad to share more with you.Take care...and be careful...you are navigating through unchartered waters...as far as you are concerned. The wrong decision...will effect your life..and the lives of others...for a very, very...long time.[This message has been edited by NoMas (edited April 30, 2001).]

Sheryl, this is SEF, and yes, Praise God we serve a merciful God, but is is also a Just God. You can call me judgemental if you want, but SIN IS SIN and the only way it can be forgiven and god given mercy is through repentenance and I sure haven't seen it here. Choices are hard, but that is why we have the Bible and our church family. Just sang in "Experiencing God" musical and are studying 1 John in church, read it and see what I am talking about. I am not be judgemental, just honest. I am not perfect, never claimed to be and never will, but MY God deserves the right choices from me and I will strive very hard to make them, each can do the same. I wish you well I will not respond any more on this issue as I can see Satan has used this forum for his use too!

You say you aren't rationalizing or justifying anything....but I believe you are. It is virtually impossible for someone who is deep in his or her rationalizations to see them for what they are. Whether you deny or agree, it is very clear that you believe what you wish to believe. So be it. You are an adult with a free will and you may make all the choices you wish to make. Will God bless you? I don't know. Does He hear your prayers? Again, I don't know. I do know that sin hinders prayer because sin separates us from God. But I also know that when the sinner recognizes that sin and separation and confesses it to God, repents from it and asks for forgiveness God will hear.What I also know without a shadow of a doubt is that God in no way, shape or form "led" you to this woman. He does not bless your relationship....it is sin and He will not lead you into sin or bless your participation in it. James 1:13-15 says "When tempted, no one should say 'God is tempting me.' For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He tempt anyone; but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death." My suggestion is the same as it was last night. Go to your priest or pastor and ask his views on what you believe. Consider the fact that what you believe you are getting from this affair is going to leave you just as empty in the long run as the marriage you are seeking to end. In the end, it is your choice.------------------ "They that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength. They shall mount up with wings as eagles, they shall run and not be weary, they shall walk and not faint." Isaiah 40:31

Oh my goodness, would you look at this...I have witnessed the most beautifully articulated posts EVER! There is absolutely nothing I could add by posting anything on this thread. It would most definitely be redundant to do so, and my posts would be much less "intelligent". S&L... You have brought much good to me because of your questions, which I cannot answer. The information regarding your relationship with your W and your personal feelings have really been interesting and informative to read. Some of your statements, I have heard stated to me by my H. I can relate to you and to your wife, although I haven't heard "her side". You know the saying... there are two sides to every story and then there's the TRUTH!!!When I get in the "nagging zone" with my H, it is all out effort to "get some attention" even if it is negative attention, at least it is "attention". I (just guessing here) think you might consider trying to read through her complaints and criticisms. She may be having a difficult time trying to communicate her feelings to you and can't seem to find the appropriate way to do this. And too, you do need to consider her anger and resentment at this time. You need to feel her pain, let her know, that you know it is real, feel it with her. I think she is trying to hide her pain with angry outbursts.I think you do love your wife, the marriage is stale because both of you are in "the fog", different fogs! If you didn't love her, you would be gone already! (like others have said).I think the reasons so many of us have "hopped" on this thread is because you give us answers to haunting questions that our spouses may not or would not answer. You give us the opportnity to re-evaluate our situations and do a post-affair check on how we are doing in our quests for a better marriage. By giving you advice, we heal ourselves.To answer your earlier question to me... Yes, I am still married, 32nd anniv. May 10...four children, two grown, two at home. H had A after 30 years of marriage, MLC, red car and all...I am 52, H is 53(54 soon). So how's that for statistics.NoMas... Oh how much I wish you could e-mail my H and communicate your feelings with him, he could so much relate to you. He needs some male friends, as do I need female friends...everyone abandoned the "troubled couple" two years ago. We are both starved for same sex companionship to help us through this recovery. Loved your post to S&L, it was so enlightening.Happiness to all,CathyDon't you all feel like this has been such a great learning experience?Cathy[This message has been edited by Catplay (edited April 30, 2001).]

First of all, let me just say that this thread is exhausting, lol! Really, it *is* intense! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

S&L, I don't have much to add except this: I am a BW who married a former cheater. I found this out shortly before we were to be married. I found out in a very ugly and unpleasant way. But I was "in love." He was my "soul mate." He was "The One," Jerry McGuire, and all that.Seven years later, he cheated again. On me. He did it just like he did it the last time. Same excuses, same rationalizations. Yes, our marriage was unhappy. Part of my unhappiness was coming to terms with the fact that I had married a man who was deceitful when I myself was not. Fundamentally, we were at odds from the very start because of his shift in moral values that went against what I deemed decent and honorable. We have struggled with this for many years, and I fear that I will never respect my H as much as I would have respected someone who was not so nefarious.Maybe you will learn to forgive yourself one day. Maybe you and OW will end up together, who knows? But how will you ever be able to look at the OW and think, "There is a woman who is honest!" - ?? Can you do it? Can that level of deceit go ignored for a lifetime? Could you ever truly respect who she is, long after the passion has died away and you're left with another human who is living in the same house and breathing the same air? When someone asks you, "How did the two of you meet?" will you be able to look them in the eye, tell them the truth, and feel proud about it?belldandy

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by SEF: Sheryl, this is SEF, and yes, Praise God we serve a merciful God, but is is also a Just God. You can call me judgemental if you want, but SIN IS SIN and the only way it can be forgiven and god given mercy is through repentenance and I sure haven't seen it here. Choices are hard, but that is why we have the Bible and our church family. Just sang in "Experiencing God" musical and are studying 1 John in church, read it and see what I am talking about. I am not be judgemental, just honest. I am not perfect, never claimed to be and never will, but MY God deserves the right choices from me and I will strive very hard to make them, each can do the same. I wish you well I will not respond any more on this issue as I can see Satan has used this forum for his use too! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Now SEF, you know that Satan is everywhere... but if you are saying that by my feeling that your post was judgemental means that Satan lives here... well... what can I say to that??? Satan may be everywhere, but I do not intentionally serve him, let me put it that way. And I can't believe that because of what I said you will not respond on this issue. You have a right to how you feel, but you know, so do I.Your post that I have quoted here does not share what I feel God is mostly all about - LOVE. Where is the love SEF??Remember, I am a Christian, albeit a struggling one, and I will be the LAST to judge anyone here. There but by the grace of God goeth I... or you.God bless both of us... because we ALL need God's blessings, doncha think? [This message has been edited by new_beginning (edited April 30, 2001).]

new_beginning I see your point and I also see SEF's point. The fact is that you are both right. God IS love...first and foremost. But just as God loves the sinner, He hates the sin. You are also right about being very careful about being judgemental. The Bible is clear that we must never judge another person or their worth. But the Bible is clear that judging right from wrong behavior is not being judgemental. The "rules of life" are clearly set down for all of us. As Christians, we are called to love and support each other, but when a brother or sister falls into sin we are called to go to him or her and lovingly address that sin. This is not being judgemental, it is following what God calls us to do. What I believe SEF is trying to say is that we are called to a standard of behavior. God expects us to give our all in an effort to love and live as He would have us to. When we fall short, He will still loves us, but He will discipline us as well. When He forgives, He forgets, but He doesn't take away the consequences of the sin. Anyone who is a Christian and deliberately chooses a path contrary to what God wants will face His discipline and His consequences. It is all in love, but just as a parent disciplines a wayward child with a spanking or "time-out", God disciplines His children too. I know that personally I welcome the times that God convicts me of sin in my life....I don't enjoy the knowledge that I've let Him down, but I am so grateful to know that I belong to Him and that He watches over me and lovingly deals with me.This post stands to become one that can bring about hard feelings...that is not what we are about here. We can all have our own opinions and share them...even passionately, as I know I have done. But when we shut down the computers at night let's keep in mind that MB is about saving and rebuilding wounded marriages and we are all on the same team.------------------ "They that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength. They shall mount up with wings as eagles, they shall run and not be weary, they shall walk and not faint." Isaiah 40:31

HG,I will remember what you've said... and soas not to direct this post the wrong direction, I will drop the issues with which I found offense.I have always respected you very much! Take Care and thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts.

NoMas....No, the ow is not in the wings, and feels she must stay in her unfullfilled marriage out of duty and sacrifice. But I would marry her if things were different. I won't try to explain my assessment of her, and my feelings, I do believe she is worthy though. However I understand the reasons I am assigned fog status. This puzzles me a bit, is it always fog? No one ever knows themself enuf to make an honest (and accurate) assessment of their marriage? It seems simply thinking one wants to end a marriage defines fog, I don't get it, no one knows their own mind? What is so sacred about marriage that even contemplating ending it is evidence of temporary insanity? What is there about a history and kids that means one is forever bound to a specific person, no matter how ill-matched? It is like a bad dream, marry, regret it, but kids come along, do the right thing and raise em, then you can't leave cause you have history and kids, so endure for another 30 or 40 years and then die, all for what...exactly? Doesn't anyone understand that even though no one is at fault, or a bad person, that someone may simply not want to be married, and only stayed out of duty to kids, and willingness to make a reasonable effort. Is there no end, you try forever. Is it ok if one spouse is content with what the relationship brings, even if the other is not? Shouldn't an intimate relationship exist only if BOTH people want it more than anything else? I view marriages based on duty and the coercion of vows with horror. I cannot envision binding anyone to me EVER unless they choose me, each and every day, cause they want me, not cause they owe me, or owe God, or owe society, or owe my children. This is too personal to ever settle for anything but freely choosing each other. Am I unreasonable? As for your green grass quote, it is cute, and I see the point. My issue is not with making a bad marriage tolerable, it is with whether I will ever bond with this woman, and while I care about her, it will never be a deep bond. Despite our lack of marital skills, the issues are much deeper, under the best of circumstances, I would never choose her if given another chance. She is a good woman, but she is not my type, nor I hers. Marrying was a huge mistake. Some think type makes no difference, that people are interchangeable, makes no difference who you marry, just that you are married, I find that incomprehensible. Thx for email offer, I may take you up on it. Yes the waters are uncharted, and I am not rushing, but studying carefully, I am one of those rationalist/architect personalities (www.keirsey.com), and we are very very careful, as well as thorough. I don't wish to hurt anyone unnecesarily (wife, kids, ow family), but I will not stay married unless my heart is in it, that is just plain wrong (psychologically speaking). IMO the damage done from a dutiful (as opposed to bonded) marriage is just as bad as a divorce, if not worse, cause is a lie about the heart. My head can be talked into anything, but so far my heart has not wavered. I care about my wife, but I do not love her, and never have. I married her cause I felt sorry for her, and figured I could fix her problems, and make her happy. It was a stupid thing to do, and a diservice to her. But she agreed, and I firmly believe both parties to a marriage share equally in the consequences (including divorce), it is the risk you take in joining with another. Vows are nice, but can never be more than intent, they cannot gaurantee a successfull marriage. As long as humans can make mistakes, divorce will be with us, as it should be. That is an unpleasant truth, but a necessary one. Marriage is not important, the mental health of the individuals in it, is what is important. IMO we should not only focus on good marital skills, but also whether 2 people should even be married, many people should not be married to their current spouse IMO. But hang on out of a misguided sense of duty, sacrifice, and or fear of restructuring their lives. So much for philosophy, I too find it hard to tell my wife it is categorically over, even though I think it is, so I guess I am not so sure of all this either....but I have gained a much better understanding of why people jump off bridges. I had no idea it was possible to hurt (and feel hopeless) so bad, add guilt to that and ....well, you know I am sure.Ok, for all you religious afficionados, nothing has been said here I haven't said to myself already, and it is ok. I am questioning my Christian beliefs along with everything else, so I expect to be "judged" and take it in the debate sense it was offered, and am not offended. I know no one knows the mind of God, and no one can say with perfect knowledge He did not place me and the ow together, and if He did, no one (including me) can know why for sure. Maybe to focus on my (and her) marriage, maybe to recognize I must end this one. Anyways all are entitled to their opinions, and believe me, you are not the first to suggest satan is with me, starting with my wife, many of my relatives, pastors (who are a little more circumspect, but I get the message), and maybe I am, it does worry me. However, I have no doubt at all that God is with us all, all the time, including in marriage, first, second, tenth, makes no difference.Hgb...I appreciate the comments on rationalization, and it is why I am here, for reality check. On the other hand, I must have some respect for myself, and my analytical abilities too. It is my way to seek lots of input, especially from those who disagree with any position I hold, and dwell on it at length before deciding. I trust myself, and when I finally take action, I know it will be the right action (or at least the most right I can reach consistent with who I am). If I can't trust myself, then I might as well turn in my human being badge, and just be someones robot (starting with my wife, who never tires of telling me how I should behave). We have been to our pastors, and I have queried them on marital issues. Their answers were predictable (we are Lutheran), I have lived/believed this stuff most of my adult life. But they were unable to tell me when someone is actually married, nor the nature of oneflesh, and when it occurs. They did agree we are not bonded, but could be, the problem is I did bond with another, now what? No doubt this will be described as fog, but something happened, and it has shook me to the core of my being. I won't annoy anyone with my thoughts on that (well unless they ask), I accept it will be viewed as wanton lust or some such.Cat...Re the nagging zone, perhaps on occasion. But mostly my wife is about power, and control. She is a strong and determined controler, anger her tool of choice. She knows I am a peacemaker, and will mostly let her have her way, unfortuneately I have matured into a fairly good passive/agressive type, much to my dismay. I am also far more verbal then she is, and can "win" any argument, but I have learned not to do that. Still I am belittled for being smart and articulate, things she said she valued in me when we married...go figure. You cannot pin my wife down on anything, she refuses to ever resolve any issue (well unless she gets her way). I sometimes simply resort to male perogative, and tell her how it is going to be, but she always makes me pay. I hate anger, I really really do, and is one of the main reasons I don't want to be married to her, I am sick of anger. Let her yell at someone else for a few decades. Your marriage (statistics) are pretty much the same as ours. Personally I think there is something very much different when an affair occurs for the first time in a long term marriage (20+ years). Maybe for some is a MLC, but for many I think it is the consequence of a deeply disturbed marriage, and the hoplessness one spouse feels. I have been accused of the MLC thing too (hey, every explanation has been touted out, all revolve around "fixing" me, if you have an affair, it must mean you are the problem...right?). IMO these kinds of affairs are about psychological survival. The ow is not some sleazy slug, she is a an upstanding member of her community, and folks would be absolutely dumbstruck, if this is ever known. Likewise myself, no one can believe it, heck I can't even believe it. But I am not sorry I love this woman, she is worthy, and we fit like hand and glove (ok, I can hear the puking, but these things do happen). What I (and she) have to do is now deal with the guilt of loving out of the proper context, and deciding to stay with our spouses while loving another. The concept is if we are torn apart, and never allowed contact again, all will be well. Wrong... I will always love this woman, I am just going to somehow have to live with not being able to even be friends with her, is kinda sad actually. One of the concepts of MB is affair proofing, essentially the buddy system, confessing any budding feelings before they grow (hey instantaneous love may be possible, but not very likely), and is a very good technique. I do think we all have people out there we fit very very well with (emotionally/psychologically), and we many very well not be married to them....obviously a recipe for disaster. However, is just as well the ow is not available, it means I have less temptation to cloud my judgement, I prefer it that way.

It goes like this:IF you make the mistake of making a committment to someone and you discover that you are not happy - i.e. you 'regret' it - then you make an attempt to find a way to BE happy together. You DON'T make babies. You DO work on the marriage. THEN, if you have tried everything and are still unhappy, you discuss divorce. You DON'T make babies. You DON'T become emotionally involved with another person. If there is still no way to salvage the marriage, then you divorce. You DON'T have to worry about children... you DON'T have to worry about carrying the stigma of infidelity into a new relationship... you DO start with a clean slate and no guilt.But, you are saying that you married, regretted it and THEN children came along... then you stayed together, raised the children all the while knowing that the marriage was bad.Now you want to place the blame on your wife, when you had every opportunity to end it cleanly before there were children - before there was an OW?I am not saying that all marriages must be saved at all costs - I am saying that you are trying to run now because you have someone to run TO - why does that make it ok when before, even though you knew you would never be happy in the marriage, it was NOT ok for you to run? The point we are trying to make to you is that it is BECAUSE of the OW that you are at this point, not because of the marriage. If it was the marriage, you would have gotten to this point WITHOUT the involvement of another person.That said, I will tell you that my marriage was not happy for the last few years... I had to be right all the time, I had to be in control all the time... I was a nag, I was angry, I was a b*tch. My husband was immature and selfish throughout this time - nothing I did was ever right or good enough ... which came first, do you know? I don't know. What I DO know is that I HAVE lived with that man for 15 years and I KNOW what we have in common... and I know that he still loves me, and I NEVER STOPPED LOVING HIM. There were times when I had difficulty expressing that I loved him, but I NEVER STOPPED.You ask me how can I know I am a perfect match for my husband... I never claimed to be a perfect match. There is no such thing. The most happily married couples have at least 10-20 things in life they can absolutely NEVER agree on - 10-20 'irreconcilable differences'!!! Imagine that! And those are the people who are HAPPY with one another... You claim that you and your OW fit like a glove - how can you possibly know that, if you think I cannot know that after LIVING with my husband for 15 years?You don't think you are justifying and rationalizing, but that is all you are doing. For every couple that is recovering successfully from infidelity, you will find one of the spouses had used almost the exact arguments you have used to attempt to justify their unwillingness to attempt reconciliation. And when they did actually TRY... they discovered that their spouse was a great person after all... ------------------ terri CourageWhatever course you decide upon, there is always someone to tell you that you are wrong.There are always difficulties arising which tempt you to believe that your critics are right.To map out a course of action and follow it to an end requires courage.Ralph Waldo Emerson

S&LSigh. Just ... sigh. I hope you read what Terri wrote above. I hope that you don't just read it, but that you really digest what she has told you, because my man, you are deep in a fog. Very deep. I've read so many of the same justifications on this board and others, it's uncannpy. What you are doing is "revising" the marriage to "make" it bad and "pin the blame" on your spouse in order to justify the affair. I know that you don't realize that you're doing this - that's what it's called the "fog." Because it's clear to everyone here, but not to you. We may as well be speaking to you in Latin.I personally feel that your W should give you the boot so that you'll be forced to deal with this issue. At this point, I feel it's the only way for you to really assess the situation. Right now you have it too easy. You have your home and you family and your W to turn to. Those securities need to be removed so that you will be forced to examine them really closely and decide whether or not it was all a mistake. Only until you lose everything will you be able to wake up. I'll bet good money that you're middle-aged, too. Am I correct? Sorry, I don't mean to make you sound cliche, however, sadly, you are very much so.belld

Terri.....Ouch. But ok. I am still wary though of the notion that simple working on a marriage = wanting the marriage. I do not blame my wife at all, I was simply trying to present my view of stuff. Not do I expect perfection, but I do know this, I dated my wife for 5 years, last 2 very rocky, was not a happy wedding. I do fit the ow much better than I ever fit my wife, this is a simple statement of fact. I agree with the no babies rule, but my wife got pregnant on honeymoon, too late. BTW have said all over the place, running to ow is not an option, she has made it clear from the beginning, she cannot imagine leaveing her family, even if she is unhappy. She cannot bear their pain. As for my state of mind, my wife had been threatening divorce for years (every time she got mad, which was often I always resisted (for religious reasons, while still hoping she would just leave). Finally about 2 years ago, I accepted we would divorce, was crazy to live like this, and was just waiting till kids finished school, and general apathy, was a lousy 2 years too. So when I said ok, hoped she would not argue. But I knew she would never divorce (well pretty sure, she did scare me once or twice), and sure enuf she did not agree. Somehow the affair came out the next day, and all heck broke loose. Anyways, point is, this is not just about the affair, that was a precipitating event, but the issue is the marriage. Ow or not, I don't want to be married any longer, is too lonely. Finally I don't think my wife loves me, I think she is dependent on me, and I am better than nothing. It puzzles me how folks her repeatedly state they love their spouses...why? Especially in troubled marriages, with spouses clearly not worthy of their love. It almost feels um....like love at any cost. Not love of the person, but simply love of whoever they are married too, and fitting is irrelvant. Like giving up is unacceptable, so justify it by saying love them. What is it about marrying someone that makes people fixate on loving them no matter what?

yes bell, I am middleaged. I wish my wife would give me the boot, but she won't. I understand what you are saying about losing everything, what you can't understand is I have nothing to lose. My wife does not love me, never has, of that I am certain. She has put up with me, and that is not enuf. Now she says she wants to love me, I don't believe her. I would prefer to be alone, with nothing, than live like I am now. So is all fog, perhaps, time will tell I guess. I don't need to justify the affair. I view it as inevitable, and it will not happen again, nor do I blame my wife for anything. I am not leaveing cause of anything she did, I am leaveing cause I do not love her. Even if she did all the things MB suggest (which she is not), would make no difference, except to make me feel more guilty. She is a nice person, a good woman, I just don't want to be married to her.

Dear Sad:I never wanted to get you in such a hot seat, but I can see that you have maintained your position throughout the ordeal and I must respect you for that. There is one statement that I find very telling however and it probably is the crux of your problem: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> . I care about my wife, but I do not love her, and never have. I married her cause I felt sorry for her, and figured I could fix her problems, and make her happy <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>What a sad commentary for 23 years of a person's life..23 years of raising your children, cleaning your house, cooking your meals and still you cannot love her. I would think that you have not been able to hide this from her...the unloved always knows that something is not quite right...no wonder she fights back...probably in frustration at what she can't have that she wants very much...your love. This is the one reason I think you have given us that does make ending this marriage the right thing to do...for her. Everything she is and everything she's done thrown away in a heartbeat because you meet someone new and she swept you away...and now all the years and all the trials mean nothing. You've characterized your wife as dominating, opinionated, abusive and manipulative....what a piece of work she is...but I bet the truth is somewhere shy of there...perhaps she really is just a scared little girl..screaming because she can't be heard any other way...screaming out her agony at a life wasted on someone who can't love her...no matter what she does or who she is...in a way I can understand.You asked why we think marriage is so important...well, I for one don't think it's so much marriage that's important as it is commitment...and marriage is the symbol of commitment to the world...not to entered into lightly or without due consideration. The time for decision is before marriage...marriage creates the obligation of commitment...and with that promise of continued commitment we give up parts of ourselves and invest parts of ourselves in one another...parts that we can never recover or get back...lives become interwined...and gradually along comes children and further commitment...and implied promises to be around for the raising of those children and even grandchildren..to share in the burdens and joys..and for each commitment a piece of ourselves is surrendered to the marriage...for the good of the marriage and the family. In an ideal marriage for each thing we give up to strengthen the whole...we get back triple in appreciation and love for the scarifices we make and that should make it all worthwhile. The problem is some marriage don't give back in proportion to what they take away...so we're left with a yearning we don't know how to fill. We gave our all and got little or nothing in return. I'll bet both you and your wife would describe your marriage this way. And then what we did have was thrown away in a minute...as if it had no real value compare to this wonderful newfound idealized love.Part of growning up is realizing that commitment is not something you can just forget about...whatever the reason...and no matter how difficult the road...we commited ourselve to this life and now we must make the best effort we can to see that all involved are not short-changed for their investment in it. Your wife has invested in you...more then just her love...but her time...her body...parts of her past and her future...memories...little pieces of herself that will go with you whereever you go regardless of whether you stay in this marriage or leave. You are part of her life...good or bad...and because of those 23 years of involvement she deserves your utmost effort to try and repair this marriage before you mentally commit yourself to another. I know you say this other OW is not going to be a part of your life, but some OW is, because mentally you have left this marriage already and are merely having difficulty finding a way to end it officially. Your commitment is gone...as gone as your love...which perhaps never was...and without love there can never be commitment...just unforefilled promises...like dust in the wind. I'm sad your life and your wife's life has come to this and that your children have gotten lost in the shuffle. Good luck in anything you decide...I think there will be no winners.. in this everyone loses. Sad.Faye

S&L,Damn, damn, double damn... I just wrote out the best post and lost it when I hit the submit reply button.My sentiments were... in a nutshell, if you are so unhappy with this wretched, evil woman who has consumed 23 years of your life...a person who was troubled and you tried but couldn't fix,but married anyway... then leave, what are you waiting on? For us to make your decision? Why were you scared when your W tried to leave once or twice? Why should that bother you? You don't love her, she frustrates you, belittles you and makes you feel bad about yourself in general. Go ahead and leave since you have such strong convictions that all involved with be ok if you do. But, if you do leave, do make sure the checks keep coming in and believe me, she will SURVIVE! Nuff said.Cathy

Buffy, your post (last one) was awesome. I had tears in my eyes as I read it because it hit so very close to home. You see, I have lived 32 married years to a person, good person with good intentions, who tried to fix me and my problems too by marrying me and who has said many times that he should have never married me, his Dad even told him not to. Difficult to live with this guilt, knowing someone married me to FIX me, against his father's will to boot. He, to this day proclaims that we never really loved each other we just needed each other and that we married for all the wrong reasons.Anyway, off on a tangent because of this poor man's quandry. I don't want to take up airspace with my problems. I will save this for another day. But, it really opened a can of worms for me. Something I had never thought about. I guess reading some of this bleeding heart's club jargon really does open up some areas in our lives that we would never open otherwise for fear of touching a cord.Glad you are still with us...Love to you, Cathy

You wrote: >>I am contemplating whether I should just pack and leave now. This is not about the affair, it is how it has allways been, the affair just gives her more ammunition>>Sad, I've been reading this thread from page 1 and got to this point and stopped dead in my tracks (meaning, I haven't finished the whole thread yet.) I just can't keep still any longer.I've been wondering, almost from page 1, why if you were so miserable and unhappy in your marriage that you didn't leave your wife before your affair happened? Please..don't tell me you hung in there for the kids! What's different now? You still have kids (grown or otherwise, they are still your kids and you are one of their role models and will be, for life), so that can't be valid. You say you've been miserable for years--unconnected to your W, different from her in almost every way,etc. etc.--and yet, you hung in there, UNTIL someone came along and made you "feel alive." Now, all of a sudden, it's different.For a moment, I want to digress and talk about your OW's situation. She doesn't want to leave her H because it will hurt his feelings?? What is that?! She says she'll "suffer guilt"? Well, let me ask you something: does her H know about her little tryst with you at the present? If not, then that is the true source of her guilt. Could her reasons for not leaving him have something to do with security, financial or otherwise? I am digressing too far here, so please bear with me and allow me to return to my original thoughts:Sad, I am sorry if I sound like I am jumping on your case. I truly do not mean to demean you in any way, so let me be honest with you. Your situation sounds a lot like mine but in reverse. My H and I have a 16 year relationship (13 of them married ) and we've had our share of problems, ups and downs over the years. But, we always remained close. Now, I know this is far different from your marriage, or the way you describe it right now, BUT.. my H was a loving, deeply committed to our marriage person until he allowed temptation to enter his life and embraced it. Or, at least this is the way I always viewed him and how he felt about me and our union. NOW, however, his current beliefs and memories sound like they could be yours. Suddenly, our marriage was never good enough and during one screaming session, he told me it was NEVER good! Suddenly, I went from being the woman of his life to being the albatross around his neck. At one point, he had ME hating myself, I sounded so awful, according to him! Sad, the point I am trying to make here is that an affair is pure poison for all parties involved. Had you done the honorable thing and been honest with your wife years ago, and LEFT her, if you were so truly miserable, then an affair would never have happened. You'd have been free to come and go as you wish and find that "Mrs. Perfect". However, you didn't make that choice. Instead, you chose to step outside the vow you made to your W and in so doing, caused a lot of hurt for many people. (I'm still wondering if your OW's spouse knows, too) You 'hung in there', year after year (until someone new came along). Isn't this the same as leading your W on? I think it is. You led her into a false sense of security, and that is a very cruel thing to do to someone.I can't help but say to my H that if things were so bad, why didn't he tell me before?? If what he says NOW is so true, then why didn't he take some kind of action before? Oh..by the way, we didn't have any kids together, so he sure didn't stick around for that reason. I know I am asking questions that will probably never get a sane or reasonable answer because my H, too, is in that fog that is so accurately described by Dr. Harley. I read somewhere on this board that a person in that fog is not in their right mind. Wow! That certainly does apply to mh H! He has become a completely different person since he allowed his EA to start. It would take far too long to explain here, but take my word for it--he is like the complete antithesis of what he was before. Fortunately for us, he is slowly coming out of it and has stopped the EA and he truly does want to try to make our marrige work again.Sad_n_lonely, I, too, am wondering why you are posting here on this site. To me, it sounds like you are desperately looking for someone to validate your feelings. Why is that? I think it's because you know what you've done is wrong, regardless of the circumstances that led up to it. Most of us on the MB are very hurting, wounded people. Betrayed by the person we love most in the world, our worlds have come apart and we are walking through Hell, each and every step of the way. I'm sorry, but your statement: >>This is not about the affair, it is how it has allways been, the affair just gives her more ammunition>> just shows me that this is justification on your part. My H tried something similar on me when I first found out about his EA (Him: "See?? See how you're acting now? So angry and trying to control my life!"), which was so far from the actual truth that is was almost laughable, if it wasn't so tragic. Back to your OW for a minute: now, IF her marriage, too, was so empty and fruitless, she'd leave her H in a minute. But, for reasons known only to her, she won't leave him. However, it's fine and dandy for her to continue her relationship with you, a relationship built on lies and deceit, just as long as her H doesn't find out and leave her feeling guilty. Wow! What a wonderful person that is! My H's special friend is the same caliber woman, Sad. She will not give up 18 years' worth of married benefits (the house, the cars, the medical insurance, etc. etc.)and no matter how much she told my H her marriage is the pits, it all just doesn't wash. She is no fool and wants the best of both worlds. I suggest you take a long, hard look at your friend and rethink a whole lot of things. I guess, to sum up what I'm trying to say, is that no one should begin a new relationship without ending an old one first. Period. Why people don't do this is a mystery, but if you dig deep enough, I think you'll always find the truth. Good luck to you, Sad. I truly do wish you well, but you've hit a nerve with me and I suppose a lot of us here on this MB. I'm sorry if my words upset you, but I needed to get this off my chest, too.Winny

[QUOTE]Originally posted by sad_n_lonely: However I understand the reasons I am assigned fog status. This puzzles me a bit, is it always fog? [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

ahhh...the great "fog" issue! Some would have thought 'fog' was my middle name. "IF"...you are in a 'fog', then so is every person who ever 'falls in love'. LOL The older I get, the more incredible it seems to me...that young people...who haven't a clue about what life is all about, not to mention marriage and raising kids, could 'fall in love', and make a mutual decision to get married, with the understanding that it will be for the rest of their lives. Those choices...are easy to make...when you can't see all the curves and bumps and valleys that lie beyond the horizon. Especially when that 'love bank' is overflowing. I always resented being told I was in a 'fog' because the feelings and emotions and all that stuff was very, very real. I suppose it is 'acting' on those feelings...that constitutes the 'fog' issue...I mean, who speeds up on a dangerous mountain pass in a car when you can't see the end of your car for the thickness of the fog. But guess what...it was those same feelings that led most people to get married, and most of them could not see beyond the next curve in life to have any idea what they were getting into.I am thinking that folks here define 'fog' as some emotional factor that hinders rational thinking. Well, I would hope...that hurting, WS would admit, that their own pain, which runs deep, can certainly cloud their thinking and judgment. They are just on the opposite spectrum of emotional feelings. Many of the things they do and say are done out of the pain that has been inflicted upon them. And who can blame them? They will do and say things, that they would not have done under normal circumstances, so I guess you could say...we all...have seasons where we find ourselves...in a 'fog' of sorts...that clouds are vision. And none of us...have the proverbial crystal ball...to see in the future. What a bore that would be! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

What I do hear many of these people saying and doing is an attempt to 'wave you off' with their own battle scars...trying to tell you that leaving...is not the answer. I think you see that your affair was only a 'symptom' of something deeper inside of you. And what I am hearing here is people are saying..."you won't be any happier moving in the direction you are going, so don't take more people down with you in the process." "What is so sacred about marriage that even contemplating ending it is evidence of temporary insanity? "Well...it was God's design...his invention. I don't believe though, that every person we marry was God's perfect choice for a life-time mate. But, once we make that choice and say "I Do"...then...it does become God's choice for you..and He can work with it. Sure would be nice if more counseling was given to couples getting married. People will spend more time and research to buy a truck/car than they will marry someone for life. "Doesn't anyone understand that even though no one is at fault, or a bad person, that someone may simply not want to be married, and only stayed out of duty to kids, and willingness to make a reasonable effort. "Yep...many of us do decide. And many have discovered...and the reason this site exist...is to tell you...that you won't find what your are looking for, by 'checking out' at this time in your life. Yes...the temptation...the reasons...the desires...everything...is there...screaming at you...rationalizing...and demanding...that you make a move...to insure your own happiness. And honestly...for awhile...you may really find your release...your freedom...your 'happiness'. But again, many...who have traveled down this road..are saying..."PLEASE DON'T!...THIS WAS NOT THE WAY TO GO!"Do you remember the movie: "Little Mermaid"...and how Ariel was seeking out the Sea Witch who was going to help her pursue her true love and enable her to become a human? There is a scene where she swims through the cave...and see's all the 'ghosts' of former mermaids...who had come under her spell...and the looks in their eyes...were begging her to turn back. That is what I see here on these boards...in many of the people who write here...scarred, broken, some, being healed and restored...but all saying the same thing..."TURN BACK NOW...BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE!" You said: "Marrying was a huge mistake. "A sobering assesment, for sure. People always mention the 50% divorce rate today...and the figure holds true in the church recent reports tell us. Something is wrong. But what is even sadder to me, is that the remaining 50% of the marriages...are nothing to hold up as a shining example. Many are simply 'hanging on' or 'enduring' for all the noble reasons...and that saddens me. I don't think that is what God had in mind...when he thought up the institution of marriage. But I can honestly say, my heart goes out to you. Your pain...is real and genuine. You are hurting just as much...as many of the betrayed spouses here. Your wife has to be hurting. Pain is real...regardless of it's source. I'm glad you are not rushing into anything. I was wondering, when reading your last response, what advice...counsel...would you give to a young couple now...today...who were contemplating marriage? What would you speak into their lives...how..could they 'know' for sure...that this was the right choice to make? Any thoughts?Take care..[This message has been edited by NoMas (edited May 01, 2001).]

buffy.....Is ok, I need to be in a hot seat. For the first time in my life I am not completely trusting of my analytical abilities, and you all are doing me an immense favor by listening and responding to me, I thank you all. Yes is a sad commentary, and I realize my role, and I regret it, but what now? Am I bound cause I was stupid, do I "owe" my wife my being? I owe her support both financial and emotional, but do I owe her "me", is that what marriage is about? I have been frank with my reasons for stuff, knowing full well how they will sound. Despite what problems my wife has, and she married wrongly too, (she wanted to be rescued, and has always placed her father ahead of me, her admission, not my assessment and she deeply regrets it and has asked to be forgiven), the greater fault is mine, I had figured all this out before we married. But I was not strong enuf to do what had to be done and end it, instead I married her, hoping somehow I was capable of making it all work. I say the things I do about my wife just so folks can understand our circumstances not cause I blame her. I forgave her long ago for not loving me, I have had a much harder time forgiving myself for not loving her. She does own her behaviours though, and many are not pretty (but that does not make her, or me bad people), but again I do not blame her, she is who she is, as am I, blame serves no purpose. My one and only concern is assessing correctly the nature of our marriage, whether it can ever be a deep bond, or whether it will only be mutual caring. Then trying to understand what that means, what marriage should be, and why people settle for less, rather than seek more, and why we are made to feel so guilty for such "selfishness". We would understand if a malnourished person left their circumstances perhaps hurting others, so they can get better nourishment, but we don't seem to recognize a need for psychological nourishment, I wonder why. I am convinced by now people are not all the same re psychological needs. My wife could settle, she is content if we are not in love, as long as we are polite and comfortable, that is a kind of death to me. I love deeply and hard, and need to be loved the same way. I tried with my wife the first 10 years to love that way, little came back, and I started to literally die. I don't want to be a cynical bitter old man who just buries those feelings, I have seen too many marriages (including my wifes parents) who live just like that, is awful. Nor do I think it fair to my wife to look at her everyday and wish I was not here. You all (in so many words) say just pretend, or you owe your being to another, or you are possessed by satan, etc..., just do the stuff, all will be well, if that is true, then my entire life is a lie, and I really know nothing at all about myself, or I am mentally ill, that is pretty scarey too. I understand your identifying with the BS, but plz understand, all these feelings and thoughts existed prior to the ow, I had already decided we could not go on as we were. And yes she cooked and cleaned and stuff, and I worked, riased kids together, and gave her emotional support (with none in return), and endured knowing I was unloved as well. It is not about blame buffy, it is about 2 people who both made a bad choice, she did not have to marry either ya know, where is her responsibility? You are doing the same thing I have lived with for 23 years, suggesting all the responsibility is mine. If this marriage is not right (should not have happened) she is a full partner in that mistake, and must be a full partner in the consequences....right? And yes committment is important, I am comfortable 23 years meets any reasonable standard of committment. The issue is when is the trying done, and the assessments made. And when is committment not enuf and the feelings of the heart are. Some would say the heart never counts, is all duty (committment) and too bad if you made a mistake (psychologicaly speaking) in the choice of a life partner. I say they are wrong, I look at the misery (or aloneness) in so many marriages existing out of duty and sacrifice and I say life is not about committment, it is about the heart, if the heart is right, then the committment makes sense, but the heart must be right first. I don't say marriage must be perfect (that would be silly of course) but I do say marriage should be based on love, a desire to choose and be with that person. A desire arising from the heart, not the head. I wish there was some switch I could flip in me (and perhaps my wife) that would make us be "in-love" and then we could justify all the struggle and work to solve problems and build desire. I can understand the intense desire to even delude ourselves it is there (heck I did it for years), but the truth eventually catches up with us. If we don't love rightly we eventually face it, and we then choose, heart or committment. Is a cruel joke mother nature has played on us, we have no control over hearts desire, and our hearts have no control over guilt, committment issues, duty...so we go to war with ourselves, it sucks big time. Either way we lose, I follow my heart and I live with huge amount of guilt, I follow duty and I disappear, Joseph ceases to exist, and is only a reflection of others needs of him. But I must choose, well unless I jump off a bridge, but I am not the quitter type (in that sense), and I will choose, but it must be a choice, mine, and not what anyone else (including wife) thinks I must do. And for now I think hearts are more important than duty or committment. I think there is little in life (maybe nothing) more important than loving rightly, and that is a matter of the heart. I also think that is what all the marital doctrine in the Bible is about, it is not about duty, it is about loving rightly, and listening to your heart. Just for the record, although you should know by now, I have not expressed (in real life) anything resembling blame of my wife. I will not demonize her to justify myself. This choice is mine, it is not cause she drove me to it, or is not worthy, or can't meet my needs. I am however demonized quite extensively, I do not lift a finger in my defense, further my wife has made various threats about what lawyers and such will do to me (I realize may just be more fear talking). But makes no difference, I intend to leave with nothing but the clothes on my back, she can have it all, is only fair.[This message has been edited by sad_n_lonely (edited May 01, 2001).]

delete[This message has been edited by vernon3 (edited May 15, 2001).]

There are no crueler words than to be told - "I never loved you"... All those years down the drain, for what?You never directed any responses to me, Sad, and I can only imagine that I said nothing that appealed to you, or you didn't agree, or you missed it altogether... I don't know... but I hope you listen to me here:I have been where you are, in that I had an affair. My ex had five affairs. In all that time, we NEVER EVER told each other that our lives together were a MISTAKE. I can AT LEAST take that with me as a positive in all of this... You are basically telling your wife that she isn't/wasn't valuable or loved for all that time.It hurts my spirit to read this stuff... and yes, you might say that I shouldn't read it then... but dammit, I am trying to reach out to those I can help... and I have tried to do that with you too...Have you read the inks I gave ou??? <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum29/HTML/000553.html" TARGET=_blank>General Welcome</A><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi7000_counsel.html" TARGET=_blank>Counsel Link</A><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>What Are Plan A and Plan B</A><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3400_lovebust.html" TARGET=_blank>Love Busters</A><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3300_needs.html" TARGET=_blank>Emotional Needs</A><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3500_policy.html" TARGET=_blank>POJA</A>Do you understand what this place is about??I felt, from the beginning, that you are welcome to post here... ALL ARE WELCOME... but we are allowed to be angered or hurt by your remarks.When I read that you NEVER loved your W it just broke my heart.

s&l I'm really beginning to feel sorry for you. At first, I didn't....was somewhat angered by your apparent attitude. But as I read I am beginning to believe that you really are terribly confused and torn about this whole situation. You are unhappy in your marriage. I believe that. I have felt it myself. You believe you will be happy if you leave the marriage. I believe that as well. But what I believe beyond that is that you won't find the happiness you believe lies outside your marriage. It is something inside yourself that is missing and a divorce won't change that. In fact, it may well magnify it. The reason we all say you are rationalizing and in a "fog" is because so much of what you say is contradictory. You talk about not loving your wife in years, if ever, and say you have been planning a divorce for 2 years. But when you talk about your wife's threats of divorce you say that even though you didn't think she would really follow through, she did "scare" you once or twice. The word scare is yours, not mine. This doesn't add up. We are outside the situation and have a clearer view....especially those of us who have made it to the other side.As for the religious aspects of this. I've said it before and I'll continue to say it. On the truth of the Bible, I tell you with absolute certainty that God did not lead you to this woman and this affair. God does not, will not, can not lead you to sin. Did He allow her into your life? Possibly. Was it a test? Maybe. Did you pass or fail? Oh, you and she both failed miserably. This is not my opinion, this is God's Word, it is backed up in the Bible. Read 1 John 3:7-8, 1 John 1:15-17, and James 1:13-14. There are too many more for me to list in the time I have. Go to Psalms and Proverbs....read the story of David and Bathsheba. You don't have to be a pastor or member of any particular denomination to understand what God is saying.I believe with all my heart that if you give Him your whole heart and your wife does the same, God can give you a love for each other that is more than you could ever imagine. He's done it for so many of us and He has more to spare. ------------------ "They that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength. They shall mount up with wings as eagles, they shall run and not be weary, they shall walk and not faint." Isaiah 40:31

Wind...Yes, it was for the kids, and partly cause I knew she needed me, and an ever diminishing hope that some miracle would occur, and a deep unwillingness to face what I had done. The kids are raised now, and I do not agree that adult children should be considered in contemplating divorce. Yes they will be affected, but the needs of the parents are more important, they have to live together another 30-40 years, while the kids have their own lives and families. Minor children are an entirely different case, and parents must have a much higher standard of committment, for their sakes.Your comments on the ow have validity, and are the standard ones, I have asked myself the same questions. But again, is not about her anyways, is about me. But I do apply the same scrutiny to her, as I do myself and my wife. I fully recognize she may have her own fog, and may not be as "in-love" as I, but I doubt it, it is not her words it is her behaviour and what I see between the words that I look for in people, and I am very very good at understanding people. When I say she doesn't want to hurt his feelings, we aren't talking trivial here. This woman has lived her life submerging herself in others needs, and peacemaking, in the process she has become lost (and shame on those who supposedly love her). Not hurting people is what she is about, she has opened up to me cause I enable people that way, always have, I have spent the time, and looked at her very hard, I am comfortable I understands her, what I am worried about is she has triggered my rescueing inclinations. The whole thing is a huge mess, but the psychology is fascinating (in me, her, my wife and her husband). She is controlled and paralyzed by guilt in her life, as am I to a lesser extent, trying to understand that has been a painful struggle, but worthwhile methinks, just wish it could have come about in some other manner, but such is life. My goal now is to do the right thing, an extraordinarily elusive thing to figure out, but that is who I am, I am compelled to understand things, no matter what the cost, it is how I cope, and the risk one takes in loving me. And no she is not worried about finances or anything else, she is content to leave with clothes on her back as well, but she is afraid he will not let her go, and seriously guilt her, she does not feel she can live with that on her conscience.I have not led my wife on deliberately, it had been life, messy messy life. And she had obligations as well, leaveing while children were being raised was unacceptable, and she mentioned divorce plenty of times, I never did. Finally I agreed, and she said she never really meant it. (this I have talked about some elsewhere). I don't feel I have misled my wife, she has been aware of my feelings all along about us. She chose not to deal with them, I couldn't make her. But again is not her fault, she is who she is, as am I, and I understand I am unable to meet her needs as well. But it is not just that, it is other stuff to, we just do not fit, is no ones fault, it just is, and should not be married to each other. I am sorry about your husband, but I will say this, I don't view this notion that it is all about temptation, and some sort of defect in people when so tempted. I think there are sound healthy psychological reasons for affairs (sometimes), having to do with emotional survival. If an affair of otherwise normal decent people occurs, something else has happened, and the affair is just the consequence of much more serious issues, including a failed marital bond no matter how surprising that may seem. If we are capable of decieveing ourselves re affairs, then we are just as capable of decieveing ourselves re being in-love with our spouses. If we are not truly bonded to our spouse something will happen, depression, running away, affairs, suicide, something. Deeply bonded people will not have affairs. Yes I allowed "temptation" to enter my life by some definitions. But as I see it, it was a consequence of my life, and my motives honorable. When I realized the emotional truths, I was prepared to marry the ow and divorce my wife, I was not going to maintain a mistress, nor will I be the om for any significant length of time, this is not fun and games, choosing to be a life-partner is a serious business. I understand the blow your self-esteem took, I have essentially done the same to my wife. No matter how much I tell her it is about me, makes no difference, and is the strongest reason I had not to tell her, her pain. But she deserved the truth about my feelings, delivered as gently as I possibly could (and no, I have never spoke to her as your husband did you). She cannot understand, and asks me constantly why can't I love her, is heartwrenching. I can only tell her she is a good woman, but that we just don't fit rightly. Interestingly she is gradually starting to demonize me, belittle me, etc. I understand why, and is ok, if that is what she needs to do to survive, but it does illustrate part of why we don't fit, I place a high value on emotional truths (well yeah except for concealing affairs *sigh*), she does not have the same need, and I stress her this way, always have. I stress her other ways too, and she me, we just don't fit. Somehow saying that, or even contemplating that one does not fit another well enuf to bond drives people nuts, I don't understand why. I am happy to hear your husband is responding to you, and wish you well.I am not posting here for validation, I am posting here for discernment, I do not want to make such important decisions without subjecting myself to peer review. I realize the possibility exists I am in some kind of fog, and that I in fact completely misunderstand myself, life, committment, human psychology, and such. But I also know I must decide in some reasonable timeframe how to proceed. But yes, what I did was wrong, and I won't do it again..ever, but now I must deal with it.Wind....I'm sorry, but your statement: >>This is not about the affair, it is how it has allways been, the affair just gives her more ammunition>> just shows me that this is justification on your part. My H tried something similar on me when I first found out about his EA (Him: "See?? See how you're acting now? So angry and trying to control my life!"), which was so far from the actual truth that is was almost laughable, if it wasn't so tragic.Me...Ok, chastisment accepted, she has every right to be angry. I know that, that statement was self-serving. But the marital problems do exist, I just wish that was the focus. Wind...Back to your OW for a minute: now, IF her marriage, too, was so empty and fruitless, she'd leave her H in a minute. But, for reasons known only to her, she won't leave him. However, it's fine and dandy for her to continue her relationship with you, a relationship built on lies and deceit, just as long as her H doesn't find out and leave her feeling guilty. Wow! What a wonderful person that is! My H's special friend is the same caliber woman, Sad. She will not give up 18 years' worth of married benefits (the house, the cars, the medical insurance, etc. etc.)and no matter how much she told my H her marriage is the pits, it all just doesn't wash. She is no fool and wants the best of both worlds. I suggest you take a long, hard look at your friend and rethink a whole lot of things. me...You may very well be right, I'd like to think I am nobody's fool, but that is definitely suspect at the moment. Can only say she is either a world class liar and actress, or in fact I know her pretty well. Likewise myself, I do think we have been honest with each other, I do trust her (feelings), and the issues are not the worth of either of us as human beings, but the wrong place we have found ourselves for the right reasons.wind...I guess, to sum up what I'm trying to say, is that no one should begin a new relationship without ending an old one first. Period. Why people don't do this is a mystery, but if you dig deep enough, I think you'll always find the truth.me...no argument, you are absolutely correct, and I will never do so again, and am trying to correct this one now. I will love this ow forever, but it may well be we cannot interact much, or at all, in any event, nothing resembling an affair will be allowed to continue by either of us. I am trying to find out whether my wife and I can be in-love, and if not, I will just be alone.wind...Good luck to you, Sad. I truly do wish you well, but you've hit a nerve with me and I suppose a lot of us here on this MB. I'm sorry if my words upset you, but I needed to get this off my chest, too.me.....I thank you for your comments, no need to apologize, these circumstances are distessing beyond comprehension. I read many of your comments a bit tearfully, but not with any feeling of being persecuted, if my input is of any value to others I am happy to be usefull too. I do have a question, how does your husband know you love him? And how do you know you love him? How do you know you are only comfortable, dependent, habituated to him? What is love (in your opinion) and what does bonding in an intimate relationship mean to you? Are you content with a caring kind of marriage, or is your idea of bonding literally becoming one with your spouse, and all that that means. Anyone elses answers would be appreciated too. And lastly, how do you know you wouldn't love another man more completely, and maybe your husband can sense that.

New....I have not deliberately ignored you, or anyone, and write enuf that I think I am covering most of the comments whether I reference one by name or not. I do appreciate your stuff too, and have read it. However, if I have overlooked something you wrote and not answered one way or another elsewhere, I would appreciate you restating it, and I will answer. If I understand right, your position is that divorce is acceptable, but only after you do the work. That work consisting of some time applying principles such as MB. As for all those years down the drain, I understand the sentiment, but it is not a factor in my thinking, IMO history plays no role in assessing whether one is or wants to be bonded. The history will exist whether we are married or not, forever our lives are intertwined. My wife says don't throw me away, I feel that is psychological manipulation, one cannot "throw" a human being away, I don't have that power. As far as I can discern, everything I do for her now, I can do as an ex-spouse, what I don't understand is why she wants to be married to me even if we are never deeply bonded. I feel like a prostitute, just being used for her well-being, my well-being of no import. I just need to be fixed, an attitude adjustment. Ok ok, so our lives are not a "mistake" nor are our 4 children a mistake. It was just a way to make a point about fitting, maybe I need to be more sensitive in my choice of words. Life is life, we are where we are, is pointless to think in terms of mistakes, that is blatant rationalization, I know I know. My only focus is whether I want to choose my wife...freely choose, no coercion, no guilt, no history, no committment, no nothing....just do I choose her, and she me...on her part, no settling for what she has, no fear of being alone, abandoned, no history, no nothing...just me. Maybe I am setting unreasonable standards, and as some suggest will never be happy cause of it, but what do I do new, it is how I feel, how does one ignore how they feel? Yes, I have read links, I have read EVERYTHING on this site, and told my wife as well. She did order the book his needs her needs, we'll see. Is still unknown whether we go to marriage encounter this weekend, as of this morning she refuses to go without a gaurantee from me. If we don't go, I would imagine seperation within next few weeks is next. Regardless of final outcome, being in the same house is a hugely stressful thing at the present...in addition her father is very ill, and she is having major menopausal hormone adjustment issues, is a very bad time in her life, I am not making it any easier, and may be best if I am just not here, so she says anyways. But then she goes nuts if I start agreeing, mostly I say and do very little, but that in itself makes her angry *sigh* I don't know what to do. She will not discuss (without huge emotional outbursts) this stuff, so is why I am boring all of you. She only wants to talk about her....the story of our life.

I love deeply and hard, and need to be loved the same way. I tried with my wife the first 10 years to love that way So you‘ve stayed together for 23 years now. What event happened to make you want to just “give up?”23 years meets any reasonable standard of committment But you signed up for life. Don’t you remember your wedding vows? Or at least the intent of what your marriage was supposed to mean?You are looking so hard to try and find a way out which will be “amicable” if not friendly & fun for all! Why not stop & take a look and decide that 23 years of marriage is a lot to give up and do something to make it worth you while for the next 23 years?Talk with your wife. You say both of you are not happy. Why not work together to make a marriage worth having, one where you will look forward to seeing each other?------------------ Prayers & God Bless! Chris

S&L, You wrote: "I understand your identifying with the BS, but plz understand, all these feelings and thoughts existed prior to the ow, I had already decided we could not go on as we were. "I stand by my question to you in my last post, which I noticed you have not as yet answered. If, as you say, things were so sad or miserable for you for so long, why didn't you take some kind of affirmative action...or end the marriage? Or, perhaps you did do some constructive things and didn't mention it yet. Did you try counseling? Did you go to a pastor, priest, rabbi or what ever religious leader is germaine to you? Did you ever sit your wife down and tell her you were unhappy and wanted a change? If the answer to that one is "yes", then did you take some kind of action either singly or together to rectify the situation? Please understand I don't mean to badger you, but if I can get some answers from you or someone who is also a WS, then perhaps I can better understand why my own H allowed temptation to nearly destroy his life and mine as well. You also wrote:"I think there is little in life (maybe nothing) more important than loving rightly, and that is a matter of the heart." Please, if you would, could you define what you mean by loving rightly? To me, loving rightly means having made what you preceived to be the right choice in a mate at the time you made it and then letting love build and grow from there. If, as you say, this has not been your experience, then we go back to square one: why did you stay for so long and/or perhaps took no affirmative action to help make your marriage better? The reason I am asking is, again, because I am trying to understand my own situation and what happened in my marriage. If I can understand, then perhaps my H and I can both work on it, to prevent this kind of thing from happening to us again.As for the "fog" issue, I believe I mentioned that in my last post, too. You said something about your never thinking so clearly before, and let me tell you, that is only about half right! People caught up in the excitement and passion of an affiar are not thinking with their brains, S&L, because if they were, they'd realize that the things that they do affect everyone else in their lives, in one way or another. Lack of concern, caring, and consideration for others fly out the window when the hormones start to flow. This so-called fog is a combination of raging hormones, excitement and guilt all running rampant at once. Adrenaline starts to flow big-time, and therefore the illusion of "I've never thought so clearly before!" takes over. In reality, the betrayer IS thinking, but only of his own self and his needs, wants, and desires. Before long, rationalization and justification take over and they are nothing more than band-aids for the guilt that is felt. The really funny part is that people who are doing something they should not be doing are often as transparent as glass. If they think for one moment that their excuses, reasons and "causes" for their affair should be readily accepted and understood, they are sadly mistaken! As for the love issue (you said you loved the OW) Love and lust are two different things, and woe to the person who doesn't know the difference. Lust fades, love doesn't. Perhaps you DID marry your W for the wrong reason, but you had plenty of time and opportunity to set things right. Love takes TIME, lots of time to grow and become solid. Lust is a quick fix. It is thrilling, exciting, breath-taking and all suddently seems clear. Wow! I've never taken drugs, but know people who have and this sounds a lot like it. Do you really think that being "in lust" is a good time to make major life's decisions? Don't bet on it, because you'll lose!Now, please let me say this to you, too: I am truly sorry that you are so unhappy and that your experience being married wasn't happy for you, either. No one should live their life like that. But..I still would like to know why you took so long to make your decision and why you chose to be unfaithful to your wife when being honest with her in all things (past, present and future) would have given you different and perhaps better results? (and, Bravo! to the person who wrote in their reply to you that "I've never loved you" is about the cruest thing a person could ever say to their spouse. Amen...ditto, and right on! Been there, heard that, too and it purely stinks!)Wishing eveyone here better days ahead, Winny

Sad_and_lonely,You have so many words... so many words to sift through... I wonder what's really going on in your head...I want to help you, really I do. I *was* you once and I *was* your W five times over. The PAIN, THE PAIN!! <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely: If I understand right, your position is that divorce is acceptable, but only after you do the work. That work consisting of some time applying principles such as MB.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Hmmm... well... kind of, yes. Actually, what I have come to believe is that divorce is acceptable when the BS (that means betrayed spouse, which in your case would be your W) can't handle the pain any longer and/or has lost the love for the WS. I have been accused before of preaching "Do as I say, not as I do" and this might be another time when I'll hear it. I don't care... it is my truth. I filed for divorce after my ex-H had his fifth affair (that I knew of) and clearly was not going to try to work on the marriage. I did still carry a love for him and could have EASILY fallen madly in love with him again, had he allowed it. Instead he heaped on more pain... I simply could not take it anymore.I met someone else very soon after I filed for divorce. Big mistake!!! I have layed my soul open here on the boards... it was wrong because I hadn't grieved my loss, and neither had the new man in my life, who was going through very much the same situation as I.I ended up moving in with him and am engaged to him now. He and I have talked about this... and I can tell you that had my ex-H gone to counseling, fought for me, dropped his OW, I would have given him yet ANOTHER chance, because I still loved him-- right up until the end. But he didn't do any of that... and he regrets it now, but still hasn't gone to counseling, still has his last OW, and only recently has asked me if I would reconsider the marriage. I won't. I'd had enough. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>As for all those years down the drain, I understand the sentiment, but it is not a factor in my thinking, IMO history plays no role in assessing whether one is or wants to be bonded. The history will exist whether we are married or not, forever our lives are intertwined. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Huh? I don't get this at all. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>My wife says don't throw me away, I feel that is psychological manipulation, one cannot "throw" a human being away, I don't have that power. As far as I can discern, everything I do for her now, I can do as an ex-spouse, what I don't understand is why she wants to be married to me even if we are never deeply bonded. I feel like a prostitute, just being used for her well-being, my well-being of no import. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Listen! Your W is crying out to you. This is the same woman who is abusing you?? As far as the "prostitute" remark... sigh... if that is how you HONESTLY feel, then I'm sorry... but I suspect that before you met the OW you DID NOT feel this way. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I just need to be fixed, an attitude adjustment. Ok ok, so our lives are not a "mistake" nor are our 4 children a mistake. It was just a way to make a point about fitting, maybe I need to be more sensitive in my choice of words. Life is life, we are where we are, is pointless to think in terms of mistakes, that is blatant rationalization, I know I know. My only focus is whether I want to choose my wife...freely choose, no coercion, no guilt, no history, no committment, no nothing....just do I choose her, and she me...on her part, no settling for what she has, no fear of being alone, abandoned, no history, no nothing...just me. Maybe I am setting unreasonable standards...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Yes, you are, but you already know that, don't you?? Your W will never be your ideal woman, EVER, will she? She can't possibly win!Instead, you're being asked to "settle" and that infuriates you, right?You know what, sad_and_lonely? I have a bottom line response for you: as long as the OW is in the picture, you will not see the truth. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>She will not discuss (without huge emotional outbursts) this stuff, so is why I am boring all of you. She only wants to talk about her....the story of our life.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Of COURSE she is going to have "huge emotional outbursts" -- man, her H of 20+ years is in love with someone else and doesn't give a crap about her. [This message has been edited by new_beginning (edited May 01, 2001).]

Dear SadandLonely,You are struggling with this harder than almost any betraying spouse I have read about. But I have the sense that you have framed your questions in a way that leaves only a few possible answers. I would like to help you re-frame them. However, I dont' know you or your wife, and I don't know if that is possible, or if it will help.I recently wrote a post about love (http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum37/HTML/008639.html). In it, I summed up my own experiences. I am a betrayed spouse, and I have watched the love my wife had for me disappear completely, and then grow and bloom again. That is an immensely disconcerting experience, and I, too, have thought long about love. My central conclusion is this:Most people assume we love our partners because of who they are. I think this is because we want to believe that we are loved for ourselves, for our own true natures. That would be the ultimate form of self-affirmation. BUT IT IS FALSE! (At least in my opinion). We love our partners because of what they give us, and what we give them, because of the total sum of the interactions in our relationship. And thus we must be conscious of those interactions, and constantly monitor our behavior so that we (a) give our partners the attention and support that they need, in the manner in which they desire it, and (b) we understand ourselves, and let our partners know our own needs, so that they can give us the attention and support we have to have.If that is true, the key is your actions and interactions, not your essense or that of your wife. Perhaps this is overly simplistic, but why not think of one or two things that you and your wife enjoy doing together very much, and do them frequently for the next few months, while you mull over your life?I wish you well in your quest,StillTrying

Well I felt left out and I have read the "whole" thing and S&L I thank you for your input to this forum and I think you have made many people think,,, the fact that you want others input tells me that you want someone to hit the right cord to make your change your mind or give you a "magical" type of solution to your dilemma.One question you have posted and I am not sure I saw a clear cut answer to "what is love" .. well I for one have been the ws and the bs in my marriage (see I have been blessed by being able to be on both sides,, I see it as a blessing instead of a curse since it has allowed me to be compassionate to my H,,, I think God knew I needed to see both sides since I am not sure I would have been so forgiving when I found out about my H if I didnt know how he felt,,, I admire the people here who have Plan A and have been only the bs and have been succesful at saving their marriages,,ok I have way got lost!) but you asked how do you know you love them... i thought i loved the OM who I had the EA with untill I kicked my H out of the house when I found out about his PA (silly me thought a PA was worse,,, shame on me) but that weekend when I was alone,,, I cried for my H, I dreamed about him and my body ached for him... that is love to me [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

ps... we are together and progressing my fog lifted quickly ....tho i have felt at times depressed for loosing my friendship,,, i rather loose that friendship than my 19 year marriage and my H dps... good luck S&L

S&L,I have been reading this thread with great interest. I sit here with this deep compulsion to reply, but I don't really know what to say. Now, many here who "know" me will say that it never stopped me before so why let that stop me. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Knowing that is what they probably do think, I will respond with my confusion. I read your post, and I see myself without the affair. I came to this site because I felt many of the things about my marriage and W that you have articulated. I look inside myself and I see what you say you feel. That hurts. I guess the reason I remain here and in my marriage is that after reading here for 6 months and then finally registering, and posting (>1.5 years) I began to see things in a different light, and it saved my marriage. I will admit, that my W hasn't changed, although I would like to see some actions that resemble love to me, however, what I did realize that perhaps some of what she did was her way of showing love. I won't go further here but to say, what changed was my perspective. So I remain married.Now I read what you have said and I think about one of my siblings. If I were running his life, he would be divorced. His W isn't really a W at all and he is married primarily for the children. I suspect he could have written your post. Should he stay married, I guess, but none of us wanted him to marry this woman, his parents weren't happy, her parents weren't happy, the minister counseled them not to get married.I am pro marriage, but I see marriages that shouldn't exist, from the sounds of yours it meets that classification. Yet... Yet, there is a concern I have and others have articulated it. Without the affair, you may not be in this position, would you be happier I don't know, maybe not. We all fear the fog is making you see no hope for having the marriage you desire, not the one you had.I agree with NoMas ( I know that will shock him), people getting married are in the "fog", people in affairs are in the fog, so who has the right to declare someone is in a fog? Darned if I know? [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

I also know that even the Harley's don't expect every marriage to make it. The approach here is to optimize the chances that a healthy, yes even happy marriage can be built.But I do know from reading here, when people come out of the "fog", they see things differently, they cease to rewrite history, they have some optimism. So maybe that is the definition of the "fog"; you can come out of it and see things as other people do. Perhaps my sibling was in a "fog" when he married against all advice. I don't think he is in a "fog" now, but he is still married.So I guess I am thinking if you didn't have an affair and you came to this board with the same outlook, and perspective on your marriage many here might suggest that a divorce should be considered. Some would suggest that divorce makes a lot of sense. Some would suggest that bibilcally you are stuck and should remain married. I guess I would have suggested that you talk with your W, tell what you are thinking, and see if you and she could change your perspectives. I did, and it saved my marriage.You see, I don't believe people change much. But I do believe that people can change their perspective on something and act accordingly. For example, what would the perfect mate be for you. Talkative, concerned, giving, sensitive, perhaps a bit amorous in bed [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

. Is there something preventing your W being those things? I doubt that there are, other than her perspective on what a good spouse should be and what a good mate will tolerate.Like no other time, she may be ready to change her perspective. If she doesn't, and your perspective about events and her feelings turns out to be an accurate reflection of hers, then I would say you are not in a "fog". But I sense, you two aren't there quite yet. I like others worry that the presence of the OW in your thinking, feelings, and heart is not allowing you to be a flexible as you need to be in order to change your perspective and receive those of your W.I would finally suggest to her, that if she has any hope for your marriage seeking guarentees about a marriage workshop is not a good idea. If things could be guarenteed, she nor you would be in this mess.I am sorry I have nothing concrete to offer you S&L. Just some ramblings. I like other do worry about your perspective, but if it is correct and your W cannot change hers, then perhaps you are right. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

It is time to go. But I would counsel you to read here much longer, talk with your W, and seek the advice of a pro at rebuilding marriages (not saving them), that would be someone like the Harley's. I hear they are very good at rebuilding. You don't want to just save yours, that I understand and agree with.God Bless,JL

Did I miss a post?Why does this post, your situation, your arguments seem so much like Confused_MI from the D/D board?????? Did I miss something here? Hey, Sheryl, whaddya think?But, if you're not, since the two of you seem to have exactly the same justifications and personality, do a search if you have time and read what I said to him...ditto here. Not that I don't have plenty to say [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

, but if you'll read that, I'll take up from there....yup, there's ALWAYS more!Lori

For crying out loud... Lori... I can't believe I missed it... I think you might be RIGHT! (Not that you aren't *always* right my perfect and beautiful darling [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

)...WOW, I wonder!!!

yes lori, if that is important, I didn't like my name that much, and I feel kind of sad and lonely (as well as confused, but folks figured I was confused anyways). So no need to repeat your thoughts from before. I kinda figured my story would be obvious, but repeated enuf stuff for those who did not already know me (which seemed to be everyone, until cheryl replied). Then I posted something here, and it just kind of seemed to evoke more interest. It might have been cheryl (but someone anyways) who suggested gq2 was a better place to get feedback, they were right. Anyways for any who are interested, I posted a couple of posts under confusedin MI on d/d board when I initially found MB a couple weeks ago. Is mostly the same as what I have posted here though. And no lori, I was not trying to escape from you [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

[This message has been edited by sad_n_lonely (edited May 01, 2001).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by vernon3: [B]Winddancer....Bravo.The day before I found out of my H EA, he told he in these EXACT words...."You are my life".Now, I am condescending, vindictive, nitpicky, and basically mean....those are all his words also.I suspected an A for a long time and during the A, my H continued to tell me "We have a good life together, we love each other, have the same interests and the sex is better than ever." Now he says we married for all the wrong reasons. He hasn't been happy for a long time. He only stayed for the children. He'd rather live alone than be this unhappy.Winddancer..you are right. If S&L has truly felt the way he says he has, for a long time, then it is basically cruelty to his wife.I still believe it is "The Fog".HI, Vernon, Yep! I hear you loud and clear and want to tell you how sorry I am for what you are going through. It's a really rotten thing to have happen, isn't it? It must have been horrible for you, being told one day you are his world, and the next day, you are the source of his pain. With my H, it was a bit different in that we had a five month separation due to a job change (his), in a new city and state. At the time, I had major surgery and was recuperating from it, so I couldn't go with him right away. That little bit of time apart was all the encouragement he needed, apparently. That, plus someone who was waiting in the wings to snag herself a nice boytoy (she's older than him, but not by much)was all the "ammo" he needed. It had nothing to do with anything other than raging hormones and a sense of momentary freedom for him and some good times for her. Ironically, the OW is a mutual friend of ours and I bet you dollars to doughnuts that HER H doesn't know about this, either. As far as I can tell, it did not progress to the PA stage, but believe me, the EA was a very powerful thing in itself. In fact, I think it's more deadly than a PA in some respects. As for fog, he was so far into fog that his eye glasses needed wipers! That's a good analogy, huh? Eyes are blinded to reality and truth by the fog--a very apt description!Anyway, no matter what the circumstances, being betrayed by the one you love and trust is about the most horrible experience a person can have. I would MUCH rather he had come to me outright and said, "Look...it's over. I'm tired and want newer, greener pastures." But, that isn't the case and never was. He just wanted some fun in his life and once that took over, all common sense and decency went out the window. Lies, deceit, hiding things, sneaking around: what a wonderful way to start a new relationship. Ugh!Wishing you peace in your life now and in the future, Winny

Know what sad_and_lonely? I'm very angry with you. Wanna know why? Because you were not HONEST with us.Honesty is the benchmark of MB. Of course, the idea is to be honest with your spouse, not us, but I have always believed that honesty on these boards was paramount.I have poured out my soul to you, both here and as confused_in_MI... take my words and use them as you may...I have never ever gotten this upset with a poster, but I personally feel duped, and that makes me feel foolish and silly. I don't like to feel foolish and silly.Best wishes to you sad_and_lonely, seriously. [This message has been edited by new_beginning (edited May 01, 2001).]

Well, well, it's good to see you're still around. Same old, same old's not flying over here, either, I see.Look, you're in a bad state and we all know that. And, to tell you the truth, I do feel for you. Just wanted you to know that one (or two) of us are still listening and still care. Not that I agree [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

, but I do care.Since you OBVIOUSLY don't want me to continue with my arguments (Tee Hee, can't understand why), I'm gonna leave you, for just a while, to some of the wiser folk here. I would like for you to think about one thing, though.....A couple of us have stated, for the record, that not all marriages can be saved...No matter how unique you think you may be, haven't you noticed that a whole lot of folks can almost predict what you're gonna say? Now, I've figured out by now, even with my dim brain, that you're pretty smart. Instead of thinking of more arguments and justifications when you read a reply, why don't you start seeing what FACTS you can pick up here? YOU know what I mean.And remember, this is from the woman who gave you an out...who said that it might be ok to leave this marriage IF you do it the right way, not in the midst of all this emotional turmoil. That's pretty fair, huh?I'll keep checking on you....'cause I really do care. Glad you stuck around.Lori

Nor did I think it would lori (fly), but why do you think I am not interested in your thoughts, I have not said that. Just seems more discussion over here than on the other board, for whatever reason. As for you cheryl, have no idea why you feel as you do, but I have appreciated your comments too. f you somehow feel I violated a board protocol, my apologies. But frankly I cannot see how changing my name and then talking to people I don't even know, and who were not on other board at all makes you feel duped. If it is any consolation, when you first appeared in this thread, and didn't seem to make the connection, I contemplated somehow letting you know, but the annonymity here seemed to make that um......not quite as pressing as maybe real life, and the subject matter was somewhat different. Still you clearly repeated yourself some, and I could have spared you that time, I am sorry.

S&L u just recently posted this below about TELLING the OW's husband. Seems to me this would be your perfect way out of the marriage. But in this post it sounds like you threatened your W that if she tells OW's H then you are leaving. Stop being a wussy and leave already, if you are that miserable, unloved, belittled for 23 years. On several posts you describe your wife as a shrew who never loved you, then in another you say how she does love. Do you even bother to read what you type or how confusing you sound. If you are that confusing to a bunch of strangers I can imagine the sad life your wife had to lead with all the mixed messages you give to try to persuade others to your view! Make up your mind already, either she is a bad wife or she isn't a bad wife. Either your W loves you or she doesn't love you. Either she belittled you for all of your marriage or she is JUST NOW starting to do due to the knowledge of your affair. It seems you want out of the marriage but are too scared to leave because no one will be there to hold your hand so u won't be alone. And in MHO it sounds just like that, you want out but since OW won't leave you will stay where it is comfortable and come here to try to get people to talk you into it or make up your mind for you. You talk a good game, but after the first few post it all sounds like the typical childish-cheating-spouse-jibberish of "I'M TOO SCARED TO LEAVE IF I HAVE TO BE ALONE" "Hmmmmm.... I have told my wife if she ever calls the ow, much less husband, I am through. My motivation is protection of the ow, this is my/our problem, and my wife needs to deal with me, no one seduced me, I freely chose. Is not her place to meddle in someone elses life. I am of the mind that marital secrets are between husband and wife, no one elses business. If the ow wants to tell her husband, is her choice, I have told her (ow) do what she must, and not spare me in any way (husband is on record as saying he would shoot anyone she had an affair with, oh well), but is up to her. OTOH I can appreciate a certain civic component to knowledge of an affair, a sort of peer pressure thingy, and one of the risks of having an affair. I guess the consequences of an affair can be so severe, that exposure is justified in the interest of common decency. I can live with that. I would sure want to know. For the record, I do have secrets from my wife (she feels it, but I refuse to discuss it, and will leave if pushed), I feel my right to privacy transcends all other rights, including marital rights. However, if I reconcille with her, I will tell her all, right now I am in the divorce mode, so don't feel she needs to know. I accepted without any discussion when I crossed the line with the ow, that someone may find out and tell, including her family. It is unrealistic to think otherwise. Affairs are a strange animal, as a ws I can say my primary motivartion for secrecy was simply not to be meddled with till I understood myself what I wanted (duh, I guess). But also, self-serving as it may sound, it was also to spare my wife this grief. Just do the right thing, and either quit the affair, or get divorced. I understand this is not fair to her, she has a right to know for her psychological well-being. So I guess I am conflicted, and may very well simply be motivated by not wanting to face the music. But one thing I have not, and will not do, is blame her for my choice"

whoa nelly try, I have never described my wife as a shrew, you need to go a little easy putting words in other mouths...k?Well, must say your rhetoric is um........ attention getting for sure. Let me suggest it is tough to put 23 years of marriage into a few posts on a board, and you are jumping to more that a few erroneous conclusions. But be that as it may, being scared is the least of my worries. I have no fear whatsoever of being alone, or not having someone hold my hand. Mostly I am just trying to figure out what the right thing to do is. In addition I am trying to state my mind as it is, and not edit what I say so folks won't criticize me, no doubt I appear confused, I AM confused, that is why I am talking about this stuff, instead of just doing something (be it leave or stay). The post you referred to was a seperate issue, dealing with disclosure to an unknowing BS, my comments on that referred to that particular circumstance. Not so much about whether I leave or not.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely: Nor did I think it would lori (fly), but why do you think I am not interested in your thoughts, I have not said that. Just seems more discussion over here than on the other board, for whatever reason. As for you cheryl, have no idea why you feel as you do, but I have appreciated your comments too. f you somehow feel I violated a board protocol, my apologies. But frankly I cannot see how changing my name and then talking to people I don't even know, and who were not on other board at all makes you feel duped. If it is any consolation, when you first appeared in this thread, and didn't seem to make the connection, I contemplated somehow letting you know, but the annonymity here seemed to make that um......not quite as pressing as maybe real life, and the subject matter was somewhat different. Still you clearly repeated yourself some, and I could have spared you that time, I am sorry.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I can't put my finger on why I feel so strongly... and it isn't "board protocol" ... and of course you are right about the annonymity of the net... I am a total honesty person, much to my detriment at times. The problem was not that you changed your name and posted, it's that you changed your name, came on without saying who you were, and... and... well, shoot, I don't know what it is. I just personally feel like something is wrong here.I do accept the apology for making me repeat myself, although that wasn't the end of the world or anything since I enjoy the sound of my own voice so much. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Take care.

S&L... you analyze way too much and while you have spent 23 years working at this marriage alone... she now wants to try too... so what is your problem? you resent the fact that she now wants to try? you resent the fact that she said she didnt love you? me thinks you think too much (which by the way my H accuses me of this also [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

) ok here it goes... breath in breath out breath in breath out... clear your mind and ponder if maybe you are thinking too much and not allowing yourself to feel and drop your defenses and make a decision and just give your ole lady one more chance ,, how bout it cowboy? C1

S&L, Many of us are here because we have been offended at some point in our lives due to circumstances beyond our control. Finding out that a poster here has done somewhat the same thing is disconcerting to say the least. However, if you do admit you are both sad and confused and truly want help, you are in the right spot. The help will be like good medicine, designed to help heal your soul. It is up to you to take it. I have read your post and many of the responses. I would like to share a viewpoint. You mentioned about keeping secrets from your wife. My H did the same thing. Please let me share how this affected me. I am a strong person usually able to take a lot of flack. Type of business I am in requires that as part of my job. Anyway when my H made a secret life with OW, I was kept in the dark. This is how I felt. I described it to my H as a mother (we have 1 child) carrying her child in a dark room. No light anywhere, pitch black. In this dark room there are objects of various shapes and sizes spread throughout the room. Here I am carrying my young child and stumbling in the dark. Normally a parent carrys their child in the front of them, securely holding them. Yet, even in this position I felt uneasy. If I were to trip and fall, the first person to hit the ground and be hurt would be my child and then me. Could I do this as a parent? Would my H want to see his entire family fall and be hurt possible fatally? This is how I described it to my H. This is how I really felt then and do now. It is a scary feeling, S&L, to be kept in the dark. This is the cruelist thing a mate can do to their spouse. Have an A and keep their spouse in the dark. Like stabbing your mate and twisting the knife of the A is how it feels to the BS. I apologize for being so graphic but from this end there is not other way for me to describe it. The real graphic part is the horrible agony the BS's go through. The nightmares, sleepless nights, pain of heart and soul, anguish and distress, anxiety attacks, fear of the unknown, thrown out in the cold, being evicted and discarded. This is the reality of what an A can do. You speak of the bad relationship you have with your W. My H said similar things to the OW. In fact I had the unfortunate privilege (being sacarastic here) of having to listen to the 23 messages that OW left over the last 3 days. All her ideas of how she was going to make sure everyone was 'pleased' especially herself. I will detail the sordid message on my own post later, but I think you get the idea. There is no pain greater than what a BS has to bear. If there was pain greater than that in your marriage, then you would have gotten out long ago for the sake of your wife and children. Because they are suffering now because the A.You are welcome to post here to help your marriage. I know that I can not justify your wanting an A. Your marriage ought to be good enough to fight for or leave irregardless of another person waiting in the wings. These are my heartfelt thoughts. L.[This message has been edited by Orchid (edited May 02, 2001).]

Orchid I have no real defense for keeping the a secret, it is indefensible, but you do it anyways, guess that is the nature of the beast. I can only say I acted quickly when I realized what was happening, whether I acted rightly is a whole nother issue. But as soon as I realized where my emotions were going I agreed to a divorce. The overlap between affair and divorce suggestion was very short. I would not have kept the secret very long (actually I am pitiful at secrets, and she allready pretty much knew). I really wish we had divorced first before I found myself in this circumstance, but I didn't. She now really believes the affair is the big issue, and not the marital discord, I feel is not, but will never be able to convince her, so must live with guilt for the pain I never intended to cause her, she in no way deserved this. Much is written about the dirty rotten ow blah blah blah. This ow would like nothing better than for me to reconcille with my wife, she has in no way encouraged me to leave her, and has challenged me vigorously on these issues, much as you have. We started as friends, and like each other in that way, she never asked for any of this either. I led step by step, she followed. So yeah we are equally culpable, but it was not about decieveing spouses, it was just about being friends when we knew our spouses would object. Actually both spouses know we exist, we did not hide our initial friendship, what we concealed was the emotional attachment that ensued. Both complained at some point about spending too much time on-line, we just went deeper, and became more discreet. The big question is always "why", then we talk about fog...it really is not all that complicated, we just like each other, and feel emotionally safe with each other. Neither of us ever dreamed would lead to this. Lead to questioning everything we believed in, and lead to resisting being seperated. I tell you this so maybe you can understand, it is not about my wife being rejected, it is about me and my choices. She did nothing wrong, but I know that is of little comfort.

S_n_LI guess I'm just a little nosey but I popped in here to see what all the hoopla was about.First I want to comment on what you said in another post about this being a BS support board - no it is not - it is a marriage support board. there are people here on both sides of the fences. The one thing that ties most of us together is we want to save our marriages - or if that is not possible (because of the choices of others) then save ourselves. In essence that is what plan A is about - being abetter us, not for our spouse but for ourseleves.Anyway,I must admit I didn't read all of your posts but what I did read was so reminicent of posts my H had entered more than a year ago.He admits now he was in "the fog" - but at the time would get very defensive if anybody suggested it to him. - He deleted a bunch of his posts out of anger but you could try a search in the Read Only section - there may be some left there. His user names were Being a Better Arik and 2 SoulmatesI am not saying that you are in the fog - I'm not saying that anybody here knows you better than you know yourself But you must know that the people that post here - betrayers and betrayed alike write to people because they care. Divorce is not necessarily wrong but... Infidelity is wrong. It doesn't matter what the state of your marriage is. It is wrong. It hurts so many people - so many more than you can even realize. The stress that you carry as betrayer goes into your life and effects the people around you. The stress that your OW is carrying is affecting the lives of everybody around her. My H's affair nearly destroyed me. I was completely broken by it - I trusted him and believed in him - and he hurt me more than words can say. Please don't take this as a judgement call I really don't intend to judge Just think about all the people you will affect with this affair Listen to the good people on the boards. They really are good people - they just want to help. ------------------ Love and Prayers Nicole

C1, well...yes one can analyze too much eventually, but I am not there yet. I need to understand what is happening, and have little experience to draw upon. My choices have far reaching consequences and I need to give them much thought. In a way it can be easier to just do what others tell you, but I was never that way, I have to do the work and decide for myself. The flip sife is once I decide, I am a pretty committed person. Hence the difficulty rethinking my divorce decision. It took me years to finally agree with what my wife supposedly wanted (divorce). But it was my choice, not just going along with her, and once made, it is very hard for me to rethink it. However, since she now says she never meant it, and to plz forgive her and reconsider, I am rethinking it, something I rarely do, but I figure I owe her that much. The downside is I must somehow convince myself the divorce decision was wrong, and that is not easy to do. We talked about this some tonight, we rarely talk about me (not allowed) but I did tell her I was very angry she said she wanted a divorce all these years, but didn't mean it. Ya know, honesty works both ways, I may have had an affair and kept it secret, but she was emotionally dishonest too in a very serious way. If she did not mean it, then she was using it as a manipulative weapon, and folks that hurts alot too. Rejection comes in a lot of forms. Maybe affairs are at the top of the list, but having your spouse tell you over and over (for years) you are not worthy of their love, and they want a divorce is not much fun either.Nicole...thx for your comments. And I agree the stress of an affair is not healthy, and should be dealt with as quickly as possible, not viewed as a solution. I don't yet know how this will all end, but it will and is ending. What I do know is I will never be involved in another.

Sl,I have been reading this post for days & have it found very interesting. Like many others here have said, you sound like my WH including your take on the Bible & divorce, he like you once held strong views but now faced with feelings for someone else, he has found Biblical ways to justify his feelings.Most everyone has give you opinions feelings, advice etc, it has all been stated more eloquently than I can do so. However I have a few thoughts:You have mentioned several times how different ya'll are, have you done any personality testing, you might find it helpful. There are some here who know a great deal about it, & feel it is helpful. I believe there is an on going post on the Emotional Needs board dealing with this subject.The other point you made mention of your children. I believe you still have one at home. Think carefully before you do anything if for no other reason than that child. Go read my threads about my son, my H thought his actions wouldn't effect our sons, he still will not admit to that being part of the problem. Teenagers have enough trial & tribulations without the parents adding to it.My WH has cause me nothing but pain, hardship, heartache for the past 2 years but I would stay for eternity if the OW was no longer in the picture.I pray that you find peace & happiness in your marriage. May God grant that to both you & your W.sing

Well, it looks like this is going nowhere, in as much as some would like for you to see the BS's POV, so....why not turn it around and see if you can help us?You say you don't love your wife and never did. Was this a revelation before, during, or after the A? If it was before, did you continue to say you loved her, when in reality, you were just waiting for the kids to grow up so you could leave? Were you just going through the motions, quietly planning your escape?What could your wife have done differently in the past re her controlling behavior that would have caused you to WANT to rebuild your marriage?If it had been your wife that had the A (not recently) but sometime in the past, would you have given her another chance?Your W is obviously very hurt (and rightly so), do you feel like you are the one that is hurting by her angry outburst etc. And if so, why is your hurt justifiable and hers is just another example of why you were not meant for each other.How do you expect your W to react to the discovery of your EA? Do you want her to just keep her mouth shut and not say anything? Do you want her to kick you out? Do you want her to never cry, never feel lonely and betrayed and just go on with her life and never try to understand the pain?How do you feel when your wife can't eat, sleep, function normally? How does it make you feel to know she has been crying uncontrollably? Do you think her weak and dependant?Last...How did YOU fail this marriage?I want to understand. If I don't get a response... well then maybe I have.[This message has been edited by vernon3 (edited May 02, 2001).]

Personally I think S&L has dissected his situation enough and has gotten enough feedback that he should by now figure out that while everyone here understands that this is a posting for "recovering and improving" marriages,, he has all he needs to make the commitment to try or get out... like they say "sh*t or get off the pot" I cant imagine the amount of worrying your W has done trying to figure out which way you are going to go with this... you have us on pins and needles... C1

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Concerned1: Personally I think S&L has dissected his situation enough and has gotten enough feedback that he should by now figure out that while everyone here understands that this is a posting for "recovering and improving" marriages,, he has all he needs to make the commitment to try or get out... like they say "sh*t or get off the pot" I cant imagine the amount of worrying your W has done trying to figure out which way you are going to go with this... you have us on pins and needles... C1<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> This is for Vernon and Concerned, I agree whole heartedly with both of you, and think your repsonses were great.Now..a last word or two thousand from me on this topic: I could very easily BE SL's spouse. Honest...this is my situation now. My H is "on the pot", and unable to make a decision. At least, SL has admitted to his W that he is involved with another woman. My H is still in the fog, and denies his A to the hilt. (Trust me..I know better. All kinds of proof including a love letter I found from OW to him). The really horrible thing is that I am in this terrible state of not knowing anything--and that means about the past, recent or otherwise, as well as the present and the future. The deep emotional turmoil, fear, insecurity and psychological pain I feel are a thousand times worse than any of the physical pain I've endured with my illness and I still have to face THAT, each and every day. To me, being kept in the dark is the cruelest thing he or anyone else has ever done to me. It's like a terminal illness: you know the end is coming but you just don't know when.To me, there is no pain worse than suspecting strongly that an A is going on and yet not knowing for SURE. Of course, I know that if and when that day comes I will feel crushed all over again (and probably even worse than I feel right now!), but at least the wondering, hoping I'm wrong yet knowing I cant' be and all of that ugly stuff will STOP. SL's wife is going through hell, I am sure, but it sounds like he is, too. Only the two of them can find a resolution to their problems and make their appropriate choices. No matter what we all say here on MB, nothing can change that simple fact, and we all know it. It's time for SL and his wife to sit down together like two rational, sane adults and TALK about their lives, even if it takes a professional moderator to help. I've done that with my own H, but like I said, we can't progress too far unless he starts being honest with me. I am trying Plan A as much as I can, but don't expect too much success until we crack that barrier.Good luck to all and peace ahead, Winny[This message has been edited by Windancer (edited May 02, 2001).]

Wow. So many excellent viewpoints. I'd like to take a minute or two to respond to a few of them... hope no one feels left out - there are so many posts here.Just Learning: How I wish that my husband had decided to go in the direction you took instead of the direction he has taken. I presume, from your description of the direction you took, that you have read "Divorce Busting" or one of Michele Weiner-Davis's other books? If not, then I highly recommend you do so. There is every possibility that you may find a way to make your marriage more INTERACTIVELY rewarding ... changing your wife by changing the way in which you interact with her. It is wonderful that you came here to find a way to make your marriage work BEFORE allowing yourself the luxury of breaking it up in some way.NoMas - yikes ... I was hoping that I wouldn't have to disagree with you anymore. I know that I gave you the same sh** that I have given S&L here. But I have to address the 'fog' issue that you brought up. You compare it to the 'fog' of being young and in love - contemplating or planning marriage. Not even close. Young people planning marriage are definitely on a high - but their 'fog' if you must call it that, is very different. There is no one else they are hurting as they act on their 'impulses'. They are not going against every belief they held dear ... they are not being unfaithful to someone to whom they have made a lifetime committment. Perhaps they don't really know what lies beyond the next curve - but, they are the only ones on the road. Also, I have to admit that I took offense to this little bit: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I am thinking that folks here define 'fog' as some emotional factor that hinders rational thinking. Well, I would hope...that hurting, WS would admit, that their own pain, which runs deep, can certainly cloud their thinking and judgment. They are just on the opposite spectrum of emotional feelings. Many of the things they do and say are done out of the pain that has been inflicted upon them. And who can blame them? They will do and say things, that they would not have done under normal ircumstances<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The main difference, right off the top, is that the betrayed have no control over what is happening to them - so to me, there is no comparison. And I need to tell you that the pain inflicted on me by my husband and the slug made my mind clearer than it had been for the previous few years... I became a stronger, better, happier human being because of the pain that was inflicted upon me, not a foggy confused person. That is not to say that some may not react way differently - but there is still no comparison, and I resent that you even have attempted to make one. I'll get over it, but I had to let you know that.Oh ... there are more things I'd like to say, but I've already been up way way way later than I should be, so I'll close for now and maybe I'll come back and post some more.Aren't you glad I warned you? [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

------------------ terri CourageWhatever course you decide upon, there is always someone to tell you that you are wrong.There are always difficulties arising which tempt you to believe that your critics are right.To map out a course of action and follow it to an end requires courage.Ralph Waldo Emerson

Just wanted to jump in with a thought or two...S_L..People do what works,especially in a 23 yr M. You must have gotten something out of it,even just the perception that you were doing the right thing,staying for the children(mistake,IMHO,they know more than you think). Soemthing "worked" for you. It appears it no longer worked,once you found someone else. The OW in our M,has been M for 21 yrs and says she hates her H. But she won't leave him until she has someone else...She's not "the kind of person who can be alone" and she is STILL in the M,8 months after the A is over. So, I think she will continue to seek someone else until someone rescues her.OR it will become SO bad she will leave on her own OR she will do something to get her needs met within the M. She must be getting something out of it or else she wouldn't stay.What is your OW getting from her empty M? Some kind of reward or else she wouldn't be there.About Love: I believe love is a choice...My H chose to allow himself feelings for OW...and chose to see me as the cause. How could it be me,when I didn't know what was happening to US? There is no reality,only perception(THank You,Dr Phil!). His reality was distorted by the secrets he kept. So that he could continue his EA...so that he would not be prohibited. He insists now that he never wanted what happened. But he did everything he could to make it happen and the secrets were the biggest thing. If I had known, he would have had to give her up. Because at no time did he want to end our M, he says. Hard to believe,given the PA.And he would have been forced to deal with our M issues...and it was easier for him to just feel good with her...he felt that I was completely to blame for our problems but not til he met her.Was that right thinking on his part? He NEEDED to blame me. Does any of this ring a bell?He has been home since Aug 20, the whole PA lasted about 3 weeks. Long enough for him to realize that what was missing from our M before the affair was not ME,it was him. He withdrew...due his separate reality...and not telling me in any meaningful way about his unhappiness. It would have been to hard for him to "hurt me" with criticism. He would do anything,I think, to get me back the way I was before the A. He misses who I used to be. Joyful,warm, happy and adoring. But I had made him so unhappy!and he didn't like me! Point to this ramble...maybe...My H HAD everything he really wanted.But he questioned it...and wasn't willing then to do the work...Boy, he sure is now after he broke my heart. I had reached a point at that time, that I was content...not exactly thrilled with the state of our M...but I know that real life is about highs and lows and we don't always have everything we want all the time. He is now learning that... Like Dorothy in the Wizard of OZ..."If you have to go looking for your heart's desire beyond your own back yard, you never really lost it to begin with".He lost himself and almost me, in the process. Maybe it would help you to do some Constructive work on your M. Face what you have BOTH done to it. And if it becomes clear that it will never be what you both want, GET OUT. You're not doing your W any favors by settling for her. Or yourself. I am not one of those who believes that all marriages should be saved,just because you are married. You will most likely never have with your W the sense of excitement or thrills, but is that what it's really all about? A shared life is a wonderful thing but if neither of you want to share,well I say...get out once you know that. And you can't know that til you've given it a real chance. Stop placing BLAME on yourself and on her. Get some help...and be willing to try,if that;s what you want. And if you don't even want to try...well, again I say, Get Out.