Hi Mike,

Are you done going nuts yet?? Well, I know that you're not, but I'm going to give you a list of advice---because you're starting to damage your chances for reconciliation right now.

1. Call 888-639-1639. ASAP. You need a plan!! You're in an important juncture right now, and you could be using this to your advantage in regards to recovering your marriage. But you're not. You're just really angry, pissed, and your emotions are swinging back and forth all over the place. Not good for you. Not good for your wife. Not good for your kids.

2. Act like your plan is to recover your marriage. You can always change your mind later---but it's way harder to act like your plan is to be involved in the most acrimonious divorce possible and THEN change your mind to recovery. (Not impossible---just harder).

3. If you need your wife to leave, then ask her to do so---knock off the threats and demands. Ask her to move to her sisters for a while while you deal with the hurt and anger. Tell her that you have no idea how you're going to work through this to try to fix the marriage---but you don't want her around you while you're so angry. If she tries to flip flop and asks you to leave---handle it calmly but firmly let her know that it's not going to be a way that will help you figure this out.

4. While you can listen, don't place deep stock in anything she says regarding feelings for the OM (lots) or you and the marriage (little). This is simply a product of where she is right now---it's like taking the temperature of an ice cube. The good news is that the tools to effect change are on this site, and Steve or Jenn can help you with that. The quote you didn't like---that's Dr. Bill's---not Steve's.

5. Realize that you will have most of your support network on your side (both yours and hers). One reason I wanted you to delay exposure a bit was so that you could get your head around a plan to execute---so that you would be ready to take advantage of the situation. You didn't, and it's very hard to ad lib. This is an advantage for you now, but you shouldn't be squandering it. Your wife is an addict who has been exposed to the world---she will have an incredibly difficult time dealing with all this. In fact, I'm 90% sure that she will come out of this much worse for the wear than you. Given the fact that she's an addict, you should expect addict like behavior. Lying, wild swings in emotion, bargaining, etc. It is what it is---don't get caught up in in.

6. If you can commit to trying to work on a recovery plan, it will be best for the two of you to get out of town for an extended 'vacation'. This is to help your wife through withdrawal AND to have her change her focus of getting needs met from the OM to you. You have to be up for that---and you need to start doing a self-assessment of where you think you weren't meeting her needs.

7. Stop dragging your kids into this. You will scar them for life. You need to show grace and love under some horrible pressure. I know that you're made of tougher stuff---so get this under control immediately.

That's a long enough list for now...

Request as polite as possible...could K and JL be the only ones to post here? With all due respect I have more posts and time in than 90 percent of you guys and I don't need Harley 101, I've counseled with Steve.

K,

This was my thinking.

Everyone in the family was sort of outraged that she'd slid right back in and tried to play nothing happened. We're sitting around crying, and twenty fours hours after the horrendous scene she's talking about cooking a family dinner, and called the OM to "ask if he was alright" (Thurs AM) The OM shut her down big time with no contact and you could see she was in mourning. Then we had that crappy conversation. That was fun. No relationship talks in withdrawl, dumba$$.

So, getting her out of the house made some sense to me....I guess you say it was a crater in my lovebank to see her flitting around being smiling mom.

And it had the desired effect in terms of waking her up. And it had the desired effect in terms of making me not feel like a total wuss. So maybe we can go forward on an even keel on a Plan A, because I sure as hell wasn't ready for one.

Now, will we go forward? I'm not sure these events are determinant on that. One of the last things she said is she was committed to working on the marriasge, so, maybe, when things settle, my anger subsides, her affair mourning subsides...but, this time, I'm NOT toting the water for a reluctant spouse.

One thing that is a little worrisome is that I did an excellent job in nuking her support system. She sent an email basically quitting her church (although only the pastor knows, but I think she can't face him, they were close). She quit her job (OM there). She is going to stay with her sister, whose husband is a big blue collar coarse Catholic and will probably spit on her every ten minutes.

I mean, I hope she doesn't put a bullet in her head....but, at the same time, perhaps this will accelerate the awakening from the affair withdraw? Or will it make those good old days nostalgic? One thing that really upset me last night is when she talked about the end of the affair it was always about the guy reconciling with his wife, she couldn't get the sad look off her face talking about it, not our relationship or family. She had this fantasy that he was going to step in for me (and immediately file for bankrutcy keeping up my huge house).

As far as ask her to leave, the whole family did in a screamfest and she just hunkered down Wednesday and refused. So something had to move the needle.

Bottomline is....I'm a proud guy. I'm successful, and you know from my history I have worked hard on this marriage solo for years. It depends whether I get Jekyl or Hyde next time she's around -- and Jekyl better be consistent in her behavior.

The lovebank is empty, Brother K. I can't wait through some long withdrawal. Hence the push to separate for a bit here -- I'd be screaming at her daily.

<sigh> Everyone says the same thing...this quiet little religious girl, its unbelievable. I forget whether I said this, but her pastor suggested an MRI for a brain tumor. That's how out of left field this one is.

You're 100 percent right on the kids, although the 17 yr old boy is singing his own tune here, no encouragement needed from me. I'm sure when she comes back I'll have to smack him to respect her.

I think what I'll do right now is give the pastor her cell phone #, and he can say I asked him to reach out because I was worried (and I am) Some crumbs....

I confess I have no way to know if you have more posts or not, but I will abide by your request.

Allow me, if you will, one final thought and if you want any further discussion with me I will be on the Recovery Forum.




Are you trying to "use" religion for what you might be able to "get out of it?"

I guess we'll never have the chance to explore that more, especially since you have chosen to not answer my previous questions about YOUR faith.


Good luck Mike, I sincerely mean that.

Hi Mike,


I understand. You've been doing this for a long time, and it doesn't feel very good to be repaid with this type of behavior. I also recognize that your lovebank is likely to be dipping into the red---and that's why I think it's essential that you:

1. Get the pros working with you
2. Keep your distance until you're able to deal with her
3. Realize that this is a process that you can be VERY SUCCESSFUL with, but you won't get there until your head gets control of your heart and gut.

I'm not going to be around much of the rest of the day, so I want to leave you with this thought. You are in a situation that will not seem like reality---it took me months to fully understand and recognize what my wife had done after I discovered her affair. And you're going to have a hard time making good decisions right now, because most of your instincts will go to fight/flight. Neither is helpful when your wife is the enemy, and you want your marriage. Please give the Harley's a call and get in with them ASAP. The legal stuff will likely wait a bit (I don't see your wife emptying bank accounts and running up credit cards).

You really need a solid coach to help you get through this---because you've carried the load for a long time, you won't feel like signing up for another couple years of this with a mopey wife. She'll need to get that message in a clear, concise manner---but it'll be better if it comes from a third party who is working on saving your marriage. Now's the time to make that call and start to get engaged---no matter how crappy you feel.

And once you do, you'll be glad you did. This I can promise you...

K, here is my current feelings:

1. I'm a wimp for considering reconciliation. This affair was outrageous, involving my kids and even my home. I should send her packing. Plus, her family all knows it, a bunch of blue collar mooks, and I'll feel like a wimp at every family occasion for the next 30 years.

2. She was zero repentant and zero considering working on the marriage this week until her access to the kids was threatened (actually, removed today). Now it is begging and pleading and sobbing and promises. She has been withdrawn and cold for a decade, am I an idiot to think it will change once she is back with the kids?

3. She says she'll "do counseling, whatever I want". Well, I already towed her through counseling once, and she was dead weight.

4. I'll never get the pictures out of my head. I asked and got specifics, she was honest, and it was in my house. Maybe if she comes on like sexual gangbusters with the passion we had 20 years ago that will be masked for awhile, but that will fade, her effort to woo me will fade, and I'll be left miserable.

5. She just went no contact Thursday....how long until he is out of her head? Am i wasting time with this "reconciliation" (or faux effort to get back in the house)

Bottomline -- I think she would more or less welcome a divorce if I hadn't said I'd go for the kids. and she'd be pretty guilt free if the kids hadn't been so strong.

Now....what do I have to lose to try I guess? Can enjoy her groveling and better sex for awhile, and always split in the future.

Also, she expects to be back in the house a week from today. Do I extend that? A week seems like light punishment for her horrible actions, plus it may be time we all need. She could use the OM withdrawal time, I could use the lack of love bank drain, the kids could use the break from drama.

Also, when I do let her back in, I'm inclined to have a sexual relationship but separate bedrooms. Just to underline that all is not well yet.

Emailed a note today pointing out the three week minimum withdrawal period and saying she shouldn't move back in until that had past and she was mentally ready to re-enter the marriage and family with all her heart and mind.

I gave all the links and excerpts. Told her she could see the kids, just not me and can't sleep here.

Harsh? Correct? The point is, this reconciliation is a one shot deal. Most guys would be in court already. I told her she better bring her A game.

Hi Mike,

Current feeling have a duration of around 10 minutes at this stage, so I'm way behind the curve here!

1. What's harder---reconciliation or a divorce. You're not a wimp for considering this. Would your family support you?? I hope the answer is yes, but if it's a no, then you need to find other support. And 888-639-1639.

2. Typical addict response. Both the zero repentance and the begging and pleading. Unfortunately only about 10% of spouses are immediately repentant and get to work upon outing of the affair. I wish it would happen more often, but it doesn't. The fact that she's not come along like you want in the marriage is a real concern---and both she and you are clearly going to have work to do to bridge the gap.

3. You have another opportunity. And this one might be better, because she's probably pretty clear as to what she's going to lose. If you both go into counseling and work on it---you have a great chance. And my prediction is that you'll be more dead weight than she'll be (especially the more successful you're becoming). These patterns are very predictable. But you absolutely can be successful, and I wouldn't be pushing you if I didn't think you had a chance.

4. Sorry about the pictures. Hey---look at my pictures---some of my wife's affair happened in my house and I STILL haven't had sex here. But frankly, the pictures faded a long time ago... and the past doesn't bother me.

5. No contact is good, but very hard for an addict in the beginning. Expect it to fail (although you've exposed strongly enough that it may not be too much of an issue). You mentioned


Here's the Harley advice: you have an opportunity to help your wife through withdrawal by being with her, supporting her as possible, eliminating lovebusters, and trying to meet needs that she'll allow you to meet. You can't do that separated. Harley would tell you to take a three week vacation with your wife where you can't be disturbed (and she can't communicate with the OM)---the idea is to replace the OM's abilities to meet needs with your own as she's suffering through the addiction. That is a very tall order---it requires you to swallow pride and really listen to your wife as she goes through stuff that you're not happy to see, but it is often a very effective method.

If you boot her for three weeks and eliminate contact with her---who's she going to want to go to? The OM. How much do you think she'll clear her head and be ready to come back to you? Especially with her whole heart and mind? It just doesn't happen very often.

One reason spending some time with Steve or Jenn can be very effective is that they will help the two of you negotiate this incredibly difficult and delicate time in reconciliation---and they will do so with an understanding that you BOTH need to be fully involved and 'in love' with each other. This is where you want to be. It won't be easy or fun at first---there's a hell of a lot of work involved. But if you commit, and you start to follow through (and your wife will at least begin the process), you'll have a real chance to make it a success.

And again---you're not to punish your spouse. She'll do enough of that herself. You can't win in a marriage by having your spouse suffer at your expense. You've been on the receiving side of that, and it's no fun. So don't participate in the punishment cycle.

Did I mention 888-639-1639??? And you don't have the luxury of time here---I can't take a year to convince you to call. You need to do it Monday morning. And make sure they know it's an emergancy. And tell them that you're a past client---you'll get a cheap rate...

Harsh? Yes. Correct? No. And although you're within your rights to tell her this is a one-shot deal, it's best to let this lay unspoken. If she slips (which she might), you don't want your pride to get in the way of further efforts. But I'm sure that she's pretty aware that you've had it. It wouldn't hurt to use MB speak to her to tell her that her account in your lovebank had just plunged lower than Bear Stern's credit line, and you're having a horrible time trying to figure out how to positively work through this.

K, can I email or PM you the complete letter I sent?

As far as working here or helping her through withdraw etc....NFW. I just found out on Tuesday, and last night I found out about it being in my house and my kids being all over the guy. I have Less Than Zero in the lovebank and would LB the hell out of her if she was walking around pining for AH.

I think I know the program pretty well, but I also know myself. She was here for two days and I blew up at her twice. And I carried all the weight last time when it was only a partial success.

If this is going to work, she has to come in making lovebank deposits from Jump Street. She knows the program and what my needs are from before. I will be glad to shoulder my load right away when I see some effort.

Really, think about it....most guys would split. I'm giving her a last grasp chance.

Hi Mike,

Got it!

I sent it to K, but for the readers, I got a sincere email today from my wife. I'll be interested to see what K says about it.

Basically acceded to all my demands, promised to be a better wife, is reading Harley now, etc.
========================================

A note on the above -- no remorse, no love either in the note.

But...she's not that sort of emotive person, (when not sending email to her lover) and she is in the fog.

Still, I had laid the remorse thing on pretty heavily, and nothing back.

Please go slow Mike. I don't know if you realize how many hearts and prayers you are in.

God's Blessings.

Say

I told K, which I'm sure he is going to hate, that I was thinking of filing anyway later in the week, then letting her talk me out of it in a day or so.

I don't know if I can go through this process, or life, successfully feeling like a total cuckold. At least that would show a little fight.

ah....strike that insanity above.

In reality, the stuff with her kids in the future is worse than any punishment I could dream up. She lost her church, job and kids love in one week.

Mebbe I'll let her come home.

She's the only one that knows how to run the fing dishwasher, too :-)

Hi Mike:

I was trying 2 decide whether 2 post 2 you or not, after the flurry of TOS edits on your original thread.

I have 2 say that I am heartened by this change from a reactionary 2 a responsive approach 2 the problem.

Infidelity was no darn fun, particularly when fine folks like JL were the first 2 post 2 me after I'd discovered my W's then 11-yr long VLTA. One of the first things he said 2 me after I settled down somewhat was that, because my W's affair had lasted so long, it'll take her a long time 2 come out of the fog - maybe years.

Well, at the time, even though I'd gotten myself grounded and had decided 2 try 2 save my marriage, I couldn't imagine I'd still be willing 2 work on it if it was going 2 still be like that for years on end. But I did. Most of it wasn't fun, but nearly all of it was enlightening.

For the past few months, my W has been making big strides and showing true care for our marriage (and me!). It's been neat, in a way I don't remember the last 20 years being.

It's going 2 take your W a while, but probably not 6 years! I feel it in my bones.

-ol' 2long

Mike, "remorse" comes later.

Don't be trying to "eat the entire elephant" at one meal.

Time IS needed, in addition to an agreement to begin to "try" to recover your marriage.

"Remorse" will likely come at some point regardless of Recovery or Divorce. Only the consequences and the future will be different.

You know what just hit me? She stated a few times that the reason she isn't with him is he wants to stay with his wife, and in a "perfect world" they'd be together.

So....when/if that reconciliation blows up, she's gone anyway?

Mike, the short answer to your question is the obvious...yes she could be "gone anyway."

But that isn't the "question" about whether or not to attempt recovery, is it?

Mike, in MY "experience" with this, there really wasn't a "hypothetical" as you stated it. It was a REALITY.

You may not be familiar with my "story," so I'll just encapsulate a few "points" for you, for perspective.

My wife had already accepted a proposal of marriage from her OM, had already established a secret apartment to meet the State's requirement, had planned on leaving a "dear John" letter, etc. etc. etc..

When the 3 of us (the OM, my wife, and me) stood within 3-4 feet of each other at his place of business, he asked her "what do you want?" She answer, "I want you." I told her right then to come home, pack her things, and move out to her apartment.

She did.

Shortly thereafter, reality began to "set in" and it culminated in our choice to attempt to recover our marriage. It was a LONG road, with many times when it appeared that she was going to revert to "wanting him." We persevered through it (mainly I perservered and refused to "just give up" until there was NO remaining hope to be seen), and today we are happily married, she "detests" the OM and IS very remorseful for what happened.

But the CHOICE is still yours with respect to recovery or divorce.

God bless.

(groan) hurts so bad today....

My main question today is do I stick to the banishment I proposed and she agreed to - August 31. That would be about the time Harley says major withdrawal from OM "should" end. I thought that was a good idea because even a stutter step here at the beginning could be fatal.

However, I read further that three weeks may not mean anything, your mileage may vary. And maybe there is a way to have her in the house but not scr3w up the start of the recovery, although, I must say, she better be on me like stink on a monkey when she walks in the door.

So I thought of telling her, look, only you can decide whether you are ready or not, could be today, could be three months, but know what is at stake. But then I think then she'd come home right away anyway and it would be like last time, the family resenting her showing no pain and remorse.

Tried to get Harley scheduled but he's tied up in a seminar for two days.

I'm being weak, I want to see her remorse, I want her back, I want my pain to stop, and I want to know where the fabric softener is kept. But I also think it is important that there be some penance, i.e.: kicked out for a month, rather than just skate back into her mommy.

Thoughts on my gut wrenching babble?

Mike,


You want to see remorse??? I understand that feeling and I have to say I would want to see it as well. But let's do a little SAT test.

1. Would you rather your W love you, than show remorse?

2. Would you rather your W be faithful to you, than show remorse?

3. Would you rather your W support you emotionally, than show remorse?

4. 20 years from now would you rather your W love you fiercely, than show remorse?

I hope you see my point.

She has a lot of thinking to do. If you can keep from having outbursts (although I am not sure I could), then home is better. She needs quiet and she needs counseling, and she needs time to think. Actually so do you.

She is coming out of an affair with a man she THINKS she loves. She KNOWs she messed up big time and hurt many many people.
She also knows that you have put in effort on this marriage and that knowledge will come to the fore AFTER she gets out of the fog and her justifications begin to fall by the way side.

She needs time to find these things that she has surpressed to have the affair.

You also need time and quiet to think about yourself. You need time to make decisions about your future. You statements about how the in-laws will view you may or may not be correct. Does it really matter to you. MyRev, suggests that a real man, gives them 15 minutes to make up their minds and then it is off to the races. It worked for him. It may not work for you.

I think a real man plays to win. Win is defined by the man, his family, his friends, his clergy. You need to decide what a win is. Take the time to calm down and really talk to all of them. Not that they control your life, but they may have some good insights for you given that they know your W as well.

Mike I want you to win, but you have not defined that for me. I know that K has clearly said you have an opportunity to win your marriage back. You have an opportunity to finally have a good marriage with a W that is not withdrawn. You have to define win for us, and more importantly for yourself.

Finally, you constantly refer to your W's physical beauty. Clearly that is a need of yours but is it the major need. If she were in a terrible accident would you leave her? What is it you really need in a life companion? What is it that you need to help you go through life? I think it is time for some contemplation of your own. You have worked on this marriage consciously for a long time. But, have you really figured out what it is you NEED.

I love this quote and I am going to use it for a reason . You are an adult.


I offer this to you, to remind you to decide what you really need, is it beauty? or is it other things and what is your ranking. I know this will change with time, but you cannot make a plan without a goal.

If divorce is your goal, no one can fault you. If you are not sure, then don't divorce.

Mike hang in there. You need to make the best decision you can. You need more data about yourself, and about your W's real intentions now.

God Bless,

JL

PS: Dang it I got a phone call in the middle of this. My point is "banishment" is not good, but under what conditions can both of you get on your emotional feet best. Oddly, this is something you should POJA. I know you want to feel you have control of this situation, and you do...you can leave it anytime. However, if you want to end up with as little baggage as possible, then make the decision based on the ability for the both of you to be "quiet" internally so that you can think. That is my thinking

lol, and boy can I relate!

My thought is I get the sense that you are very driven by justice, punishment, and right and wrong. Therefore, my question is, what sort of penance are you going to be satisfied with? I see posts on here where the A is 2 or 3 years over, yet the BS still drags the FWS over the coals every chance they get. I have to admit, I've been assuming you'll be one of those, based on your words and actions. Honestly, will you? If so, I'd spare the both of you the misery. Or at the very least, be honest with her about what hoops she will have to go through to mollify you.

I will be resentful.

The question for me is, I have had this beautiful wife I'm nuts about for 22 years. For about 20.5 years she has been in various stages of withdraw re: affection, sharing feelings, etc. I'm very verbal and she is very closed....it is just her genes, my kids are like that too.

Now, if somehow this shi..stuff broke through a wall and returned us to those first few years in terms of love, communications, etc? Yes,I could be happy with that.

However, it is also very possible that, since the driver here for her to return is the kids, in five years when they are in college she will just walk then. In fact, she says that sometimes about other people "staying together until the kids are out of the house"

So...is that what I want to live with? Plusses and minuses, at least it wouldn't be a Hiroshima bomb out of the blue like this....

Mike, if that truly IS the "sole" driver, then I'd tread very cautiously about reconciliation.

THAT is why I asked previously about your faith and her faith in Jesus Christ and just how important that faith is to each of you.

IF you prefer not to discuss that aspect of the recovery process, that is fine, but I must tell you that it was KEY to my wife's and my ability to recover our marriage. I do not think that we would have been successful, no matter how closely we adhered to the "Harley" method, without both the intervention of God and our submitting our wills to His will, even when we "didn't feel like it." Our marriage was "that far gone" when we began our first halting and hesitant steps toward recovery. In fact, there was a time JL told me to "forgetaboutit" and get ready for a divorce.

Humanistically speaking, he was probably right.

But as I wrote in my 2nd ever thread, "Miracles happen when you are obedient to God."

By the way, Mike, my wife and had been married for some 21 years when she BEGAN her 6 year long continuous affair. We have now been married for 33 years, with a MAJOR course deviation in there that took us "off course" for 6 years.

God bless.

Look, you say some good stuff but enough of the Jesus trip. I'm an atheist (closet), she is a serious Lutheran and we are talking with her pastor, but that isn't going to be what rides me into the sunset.

If that breaks us up fine, but I'm not going to feign religious faith.

Oddly, I went to Catholic school (that will knock the religion out of you) and I can quote circle around the rest of them in Scripture.

Now -- would getting more socially involved in church makes sense? Probably.

Mike, this may or may not apply to you, so if it doesn't, just discard the notion. But my husband is very verbal - VERRRRRY verbal. When we married 30 years ago, I was quiet, but not closed. Now, I'm so closed you couldn't pry me open with a shell shucker. Why? Because of my H's 'verbalness.'

He talks all the time, almost always about himself. If I try to say anything about me his eyes glaze over and he changes the subject, as if it's torture to listen to stuff about me. Also, when we DO talk about stuff, his way is the ONLY way. No one else can have as valid an opinion. And if I try to interject my differing opinion, I'm turning on him. kwim?

So I just quit talking. It's easier than continuously being shot down whenever I try to interject myself into his ongoing self-absorption and strong-headedness. The only way I can protect what ego I have left.

I'm not saying you ARE such a person, just giving you one example of two people with the same dynamics (verbal, non-verbal), and how it kind of resulted in the same relationship. If it were the case that you happened to be that way and not realize it, you can easily take steps to watch what you're doing and make it easier for her to learn to trust you and open up to you. If that's what you want.

Anyway, just throwing that out there, cos it struck a chord with me.

Mike, thanks for the clarification. My apology if it seemed like a "Jesus trip." I asked about it because you mentioned your wife's faith and the involvement of the pastor, etc., but never mentioned your own position vies a vie a belief system.

I understand that God may have no meaning for you personally, and you might not understand what I am about to say, but the "remorse" you are looking for from your wife BEGINS with her realization that adultery is first and foremost a sin against God. When she repents of that TO God and seeks His forgiveness is when you will begin to see some of that repentance that you are looking for.

Personally I'm not sure what good it will do for you to be speaking to her pastor, as you "speak different languages," but it's a good thing that your wife is speaking with the pastor because for her, humble obedience TO God should be foremost in her desires if she loves the Lord.

Consider the "MB" plans and concepts, as they will provide a framework on which recovery, if that is what you choose, can be built.

I don't think I have verbal diarrhea, but I probably use my rapier wit on her too much. She can be a little naive and I tease her, which I'm sure is a lovebuster.

She was probably the rocket scientist in her affair...

Actually, she isn't speaking with the pastor, I am.

In fact, she quit some church committees and such on D-day, so there is some shame there somewhere. She has said she wanted both of us to sit down with him, but with the divorce/withdrawal/reconciliation merry-go-round I have been unable to decide if I want to hear whatever defense is going to be thrown up while she is still fogged.

I tried to call him over the weekend to call her and talk.

When I'm not plotting her murder, I am worried that I, er, she nuked her entire world with this -- job, church, lover, husband, kids, cousins, sister, mother.....

JL, check your email.

quote=Just Learning]Mike,


You want to see remorse??? I understand that feeling and I have to say I would want to see it as well. But let's do a little SAT test.

1. Would you rather your W love you, than show remorse?

2. Would you rather your W be faithful to you, than show remorse?

3. Would you rather your W support you emotionally, than show remorse?

4. 20 years from now would you rather your W love you fiercely, than show remorse?

I hope you see my point.

She has a lot of thinking to do. If you can keep from having outbursts (although I am not sure I could), then home is better. She needs quiet and she needs counseling, and she needs time to think. Actually so do you.

She is coming out of an affair with a man she THINKS she loves. She KNOWs she messed up big time and hurt many many people.
She also knows that you have put in effort on this marriage and that knowledge will come to the fore AFTER she gets out of the fog and her justifications begin to fall by the way side.

She needs time to find these things that she has surpressed to have the affair.

You also need time and quiet to think about yourself. You need time to make decisions about your future. You statements about how the in-laws will view you may or may not be correct. Does it really matter to you. MyRev, suggests that a real man, gives them 15 minutes to make up their minds and then it is off to the races. It worked for him. It may not work for you.

I think a real man plays to win. Win is defined by the man, his family, his friends, his clergy. You need to decide what a win is. Take the time to calm down and really talk to all of them. Not that they control your life, but they may have some good insights for you given that they know your W as well.

Mike I want you to win, but you have not defined that for me. I know that K has clearly said you have an opportunity to win your marriage back. You have an opportunity to finally have a good marriage with a W that is not withdrawn. You have to define win for us, and more importantly for yourself.

Finally, you constantly refer to your W's physical beauty. Clearly that is a need of yours but is it the major need. If she were in a terrible accident would you leave her? What is it you really need in a life companion? What is it that you need to help you go through life? I think it is time for some contemplation of your own. You have worked on this marriage consciously for a long time. But, have you really figured out what it is you NEED.

I love this quote and I am going to use it for a reason . You are an adult.


I offer this to you, to remind you to decide what you really need, is it beauty? or is it other things and what is your ranking. I know this will change with time, but you cannot make a plan without a goal.

If divorce is your goal, no one can fault you. If you are not sure, then don't divorce.

Mike hang in there. You need to make the best decision you can. You need more data about yourself, and about your W's real intentions now.

God Bless,

JL

PS: Dang it I got a phone call in the middle of this. My point is "banishment" is not good, but under what conditions can both of you get on your emotional feet best. Oddly, this is something you should POJA. I know you want to feel you have control of this situation, and you do...you can leave it anytime. However, if you want to end up with as little baggage as possible, then make the decision based on the ability for the both of you to be "quiet" internally so that you can think. That is my thinking [/quote]

Mike - if it was me (and it was) I wouldn't care WHY your wife decides to return - for the kids, because she's afraid, because OM is no longer available - sure NOT ideal reasons but so what!

The ONLY thing that matters is that she maintains NC with OM and commits to the marriage and following a plan for recovery.

If you rebuild love in your marriage, all the "reasons" will be moot. If you follow the MB program, you will both fall back in-love.

I don't know. If it were me, it would matter a lot in the long run why my spouse returned. It would also matter a lot that for most of the marriage my spouse has been withdrawn, and that I'd applied the MB principles with little result.

I personally would need to know why she returned, and why this time efforts to fix the marriage would be more likely to succeed than before. A lot to ask, I know. Also, this isn't information one can discover overnight. Usually you need to actually be in MC and working toward saving the marriage before it becomes chrystal clear that the marriage is never going to be a happy one.

As an older child of divorce, I can tell you that divorcing when the kids are in college doesn't make it easier for the children. It just makes it easier for the parents. My life was still cut in half: Before my parents' divorce and after. I had to question my whole concept of what a marriage was supposed to be like. And, even though my parents were together until I was 21, the tension in the house was often horrible. The separation and divorce came as a relief.

Mike, be patient with yourself and the situation. It's hard to learn to sit still when you can't see a path forward. If you wait a bit, the path will start to emerge.

As far as the withdrawal, the reason I asked about whether he was the verbal, or more forceful or aggressive one - after watching him go after her with claws exposed, is that if that is a continuous process in their marriage, she will likely STAY withdrawn even if she comes back, because being at the butt end of all that 'rapier wit' is a proven way to shut the other person down out of self-protection.

I'm not saying it's necessarily a bad thing, to be so outspoken and sure of yourself, but if you're paired with someone who doesn't feel confident to defend herself, she'll just shut down. Is that what you would want in a relationship? It could just lead to another problem down the road.

Which is why I'm suggesting that Mike do some soul searching to ask himself if his 'method' of dealing with things could be a contributor to the problems. If he determines it's possible, and even if he doesn't take her back but for future relationships, it would behoove him to consider some self-reflection and possibly learning new, more empathetic ways of dealing with people.

And Mike, maybe that is part of the problem. It is NOT the pastor's responsibility to talk to your wife for YOU, it is his reponsibility to talk to her for God.

You likely (being a "closet" atheist) don't want him, or me, or anyone, to talk to YOU about God, but you want to "use" God in some way for your benefit?

YOU are responsible for talking to your wife for yourself. Don't try to shift this responsibility to someone else who is NOT married to her.

Thanks, Kahuna,

That seems to be the opinion among the varsity on email. That and with the fog you won't get a straight answer anyway.

Agreed. I would not want someone who returned to me merely because I was useful. I would want someone who really loved me, appreciated me, and valued me, not just the money and things I could provide.

It makes a world of difference why someone returns.

Mike,
I just wanted to drop by and let you know that you’ve been in my thoughts and I wish you the best with whatever decision you make about recovery or divorce. I hope you will take this time away from your WW to take care of yourself and take care of your kids. This is a great time, without having her there to constantly trigger you, to make a firm decision about your future and a plan to move forward. I would encourage you to take as much time as you need.

You expressed a concern about her reasons for wanting to reconcile. For many BH’s the reasons behind their WW’s decision to return to the marriage are not that important because it gives them a chance to implement a good plan A and help their WW through withdrawal and out of the fog. BUT, in your case, I think your WW’s reason for coming back is very important. You have already been using the MB principles for a number of years with no visible effect. You have already expended so much effort and emotional energy working on your marriage that I just don’t know if there’s enough “left in the tank” to work through weeks with a foggy WW who’s going through withdrawal and only with you for the kids. You will have to answer that question for yourself.

Again, please use this time away from her to really decide what you want to do. If you decide to go through with the divorce, everyone would certainly understand. Just remember that ultimately it will be better for your children if they can reconcile and have a relationship with their mother. I know they may think they hate her now, but what they really hate is what she has done to their family. The best thing you can do for your children is to help them learn to deal with their anger and reconcile with their mother even if you end up divorced.

If you decide to try to recover your marriage, this time apart is a great time for you to determine what your boundaries are and what you need from your wife to begin and continue recovery. I believe that you need to firmly establish those boundaries and expectations before you allow her back into the home. With all of the damage that has been done to you over the past 18 years of her unhappiness and through her affair, you probably only have enough energy left for one chance. You will need for her to come back home and be a full, 100% participant in recovery. If you’re like me, you will probably need to see her doing the bulk of the recovery work at some point since she is the one who chose to inflict all of this damage on you and your family.

Like I told you in an earlier thread, the first thing you have to do is make up your mind that you will recover and then decide what recovery will look like for you. It may mean a recovered and better marriage or it may mean a recovered, healthy, and divorced Mike.

Stay strong

Well...Update: Mikey pussies out.

I got the phone call this AM I think I needed from her. Bawling her eyes out, I'm her "strength" she never realized or appreciated it, can't survive without me, pleading to come home, anger at the "a-ho13" OM, bawling her eyes out, bawling her eyes out, she'll be a different person, realizes she has one shot, will do Harley counseling, bawling, bawling...

Oh, this was powerful for a very religious person -- "I know now I'll never get into heaven". Seriously. Damn. I'm glad I worship The Golden Calf, he's very forgiving.

I didn't have the heart to say no. Certainly gave me hope for an exit from withdrawal.

I told her we have to have a family meeting tonite and she has to make it right and open up to her feelings, etc

Frankly....I was starting to fear long term damage to her relationship with our kids, so probably time to consider that.

Rule is she sleeps in the basement, only comes up for filthy, degrading sex acts. heh. Bet that gets censored.

Well, the ride begins....I'm scheduling with Harley now....probably try Jennifer.

Thanks for everyone's thoughts.

I have a sick sense of satisfaction hearing that your wifey is crawling and sniveling.

Me, being the enlightende pessemist that I am, says she has realized that she tossed her meal ticket for someone who never really wanted her, only what she had.

Same scenario with my wifey, but mine was too ashamed to admit it and decided mutual nuking was more paletable.

I hope that you're still venting anger that you'd never act out but just in case you're serious.....

If this...
....then I agree with this:

LB - Probably not until Mike is really ready to actually forgive her and accept the promises inherent in forgiving someone.

Time will tell.

But his apparent "glee" in his "golden calf" statement and his lack of understanding what was being said in his wife's comment about "never getting into heaven" shows a marked lack of caring for his wife. But that's perhaps another issue for another day.

Right now Mike is still reeling from the emotional onslaught of adultery and is not that interested in his wife's feelings, much less her relationship with a God that Mike doesn't believe even exists.

A marriage of equals is the goal, but it will take time to see if this is achievable or if it will be a marriage of "master/slave" instead. That is, unless Mike decides that he really wants to be divorced and not build a recovered marriage.

That woman had no realtionship with God in the first place, she was the stereotypical hypocrite. All show for the crowd on Sunday to relieve her guilt, and as soon as 12:00PM hit, it was back to debauchery for the week.

Hah! I was giving three to one you would. Becasue I knew you would eventually do the right thing for your family (and her.)

$$$ buy a lot of forgiveness do they? I am now quoting 10 to 1 your wife gets to heaven before you do, adultery and all.


All good and the way it will likely play out. But you have some changes to make too, don't forget. You ought to know all this up front, being an MB grad cum laude.


Mucho welcome. You can have a lot more, too.

Not according to the rules.

orinthians 6:9
Or know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, [b]or adulterersr effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with men,

Hebrews 13:4
Let marriage be had in honor among all, and let the bed be undefiled: for fornicators and adulterers God will judge. [/b]

Show her these for a good start.

And my favorite.

Luke 12:58
When you are on the way to court with your accuser, try to settle the matter before you get there. Otherwise, your accuser may drag you before the judge, who will hand you over to an officer, who will throw you into prison.

Well You're divorced now and I'm still married, very happily married 3 years into recovery. My wife HATED me when she returned. SO I guess I could have pouted and been pizzed off with her and gotten a divorce too because she did not fit what some consider essential to try and recover their marriage.

Like I said - it's not enough in the long run but it's good enough for a start and a shot at recovery as long as there is NC and a commitment to rebuild. That is plenty enough.

Oh Pariah - I never realised Adultery and fornication and effeminate was the unforgivable sin!

Whoops - that's more than ONE unforgivable sin.

Seriously Pariah - are you saying that God will not forgive an adulteror? Sure UNREPENTANT adulterors are in trouble but a repentant one is forgiven just like you are for your sins.

BK - well said.


Besides, the "issue of the moment" is not his wife's relationship with God, it is the adultery and his lack of a relationship with God (can't get much more "lacking" than being an atheist who doesn't even believe God exists). Therefore the "eternal state of her soul" is NOT "in play" here for any reason other that to "beat up" on the Wayward Wife. Likewise, USING the pastor to "God-talk" to her is just another means of manipulation through the use of something he doesn't believe in.

He needs to decide if he wishes to remain married or not.

Once that decision is made, then he need to be honest enough with himself to DO what either decision requires of him in order to successfully divorce or rebuild a marriage through true forgiveness and NOT "dominance."

"""That woman had no realtionship with God in the first place,"""

Great, I can take him off the suspect's list.







:-)

Alright all the bible thumpers outta my thread!

Okay, so she came back last night, family meeting, very emotional makeup sex, going to begin Harley, she's still sleeping downstairs cuz I say, being very lovely, that's the headline news.

In deference to your very disrespectful statement to people who may believe differently than you but who are sincerely interested in trying to provide you some help in your situtation....I accede to your wishes as one of those you don't like.

Good luck Mike.


P.S. Mike, when someone is drowning and flailing around, just how "picky" are they when someone on the solid shore who might hold differing spiritual beliefs tosses them a lifering or reaches out to them with a pole to help them get out of the water? My guess is that you would toss the ring back and bat the pole away from you and say something very cool like, "'no thumpers' thank you very much!"

Mike,

I have just finished reading your threads again with great interest. I read them again because you have said that you have practised MB principles in your M for years. It is a good thing that you made that statement because your words and actions would have never given that away. Cuz I say. What a MB statement!

That said, I will now bow out cause I fit the Bible thumpers description and you obviously don't want anyone or anything to interfere with your great wisdom and pride in handling this unfortunate situation.

God's Blessings,

Say

Dude,

I'd recommend that she get tested for STD's before you start banging her again...

I'm reminded of a story that I read over thirty years ago so I went looking.

If you Google this: Eight Cow Wife Patricia McGerr, I would be interested to read your thoughts about the story.

This is the first paragraph:
My trip to the Kiniwata Island in the Pacific was a memorable one. Although the island was beautiful and I had an enjoyable time, the thing I remember most about my trip was the fact "Johnny Lingo gave eight cows for his wife." I’m reminded of it every time I see a woman belittle her husband or a wife wither under her husband’s scorn. I want to say to them, "You should know why Johnny Lingo gave eight cows for his wife."

mikec

Seems to be enjoying way to much how he is able to rub WW's affair in her face.

One thing to be angry, hurt, or whatever. Another to be harsh for the enjoyment to inflict revenge pain.

TheRoad,

you are right. I need to be conscious of that. I know she is the one that really needs the attention and I need to change.

that said, it is 5 days since d-day, I have already caved and let her back in, and it is intoxicating to have attention and concern from her ofr the first time in 15 years. So, I'm at fault, and I'll try to change.

ForeverHers,

I want to dialogue with you and I think your spitirtuality is very misquided. Have you read the Koran? We have a different take on marriage and man/woman relationships. Come to my side and culture and ignore your own mores and beliefs.

Mike, your sarcasm is rather hollow for a self-professed "closet atheist." No Koran for you, no anything with any "god" in it.

Now I thought you wanted people who believe in Christ to vacate your thread, so why bother with the baiting?

Ya, I know, you're mad, you're angry, you feel justified in doing whatever you want to do in response, like using your wife and the pastor to get you something you want even though you don't believe a thing that their faith might believe. Those of us who have worked through the stage you find yourself in understand, and you are forgiven.

Continued wishes for good luck with your recovery efforts, if you decide on recovery, Mike.

Why is this the "issue of the moment"??? Are you saying that people who don't agree with your religious beliefs cannot save their marriages?

AGG

BK, I'm not sure the point of your post.

My post was what would work for me if I were in MC's shoes, and I had been implementing MB principles for 8 years and found out that my spouse had had an affair. It's not for everyone, as it obviously wasn't for you. It may not be for MC2.

I'm pretty sure you don't know my marital background beyond my sig line. Just so you know, I worked with Steve Harley for over two years before divorcing my H. I certianly didn't sit and pout or try to harm my then H, and I wouldn't recommend that course of action for anyone.

Mike, please consider reframing your decision to welcome your wife back into the home. Saying that you're pussying out, caving in, etc shows your action in the worst possible light.

Do you not respect the decision you made? Do you believe you made this decision in real weakness or in stregnth?

Personally, I think the cowardly decision is to cut all ties and go full-throttle divorce. Sure, it's painful, but it keeps all the control in your own hands.

By welcoming your wife back, you continue a relationship, and that takes courage. In a relationship, no one person is in control of the relationship. This is an act of goodness, not whimpiness.

If I were you, I'd seriously reconsider the sleep on the couch edict. There is something tacky about asking a woman you've just had sex with to sleep somewhere else. Granted she was tacky first, and her tack score is still higher than yours. Still, either sleep with her or not scr*w her.

Another atheist! Thank God!


I ac2ally thought this was pretty funny. My W would have as well, even back before we got M'd and she called herself a "Jesus Freak" (I don't think the term 'thumper had been invented at the time).

These days, she considers herself an agnostic, and I've said elsewhere I consider myself an atheologist (a term I made up and am rather proud of).

On 2 the subject at hand, though.

I'm again heartened by your allowing your W 2 come home, where you'll be better able 2 plan A her and get recovery going.

You do realize, don't you, that you're one of the rare sitches here where the WS has "quit the A" upon discovery? Granted, you pushed pretty hard, which was a risk worth taking in this case (because it appears 2 have paid off).

Now is the time, though, 2 follow the MB plans 2 a T, and entice your W back, fully, 2 the M so recovery can get started.

best,
-ol' 2long

I kinda like the term atheologist, and I'm a believer. In God, not atheology.

AGG, okay, Mike wants us off of his thread, so I'll make this brief since you brought it up here.

NO, anyone, regardless of their faith, CAN recover their marriage. Regardless of one's faith, recovery is HARD, and it takes commitment from BOTH spouses. Suffice it to say that whatever Mike's previous involvement with MB and "MB methods" do not seem to have worked, but they still can if there is a real commitment by both of them, not just one of them.

The "issue" is that Mike is an atheist who wants "bible thumpers" (I guess his word of distain for anything religious) off of his thread, baits with sarcastic arguments such as his "Koran" thing, BUT he has NO compunction about having her pastor "bible thump" her.

Get the feeling? It's NOT okay for anyone to mention God, but it's okay for him to "use" God for his purposes. He brought up her wife's faith, he intiated the involvement of her pastor, he ignored early questions to his own faith status so we would know whether or not to talk about that sort of stuff, then he goes on the attack when he finally does "cough up" the information that he is an atheist. But I guess we are all at fault for not having been mindreaders.

That's why it's (his position as a atheist married to someone who professes to be a believer) an issue. It's an issue of "manipulation" and "control" over his wife that has nothing to do with forgiveness and a real attempt at reconciliation and recovery.

If you want to go into this any further, I would suggest another thread so as to not be insensitive to Mike's request that "religious talk" be kept out of his thread.

Seven years later, I still love you, man. You got to catch me up on your life.

I made the decision in haste out of pity and I think it was too early.


Well, our downstairs guest suite is almost 1000 sf, jacuzzi, walk-in shower, sauna so it is hardly a bed of nails.

omigod on message *edit*

In reading this thread, I did not at all come to the same conclusions as you did above.

For one, he never went on "the attack", he simply asked the "bible thumpers" to stay off his thread, then tried to explain to you (in what you termed sarcastic, that he did not come from the same belief system (frame of reference you do) and used one who follows the Koran as an example.

Two, talking to his wives pastor is not using God for his own purposes. He doesn't believe in God, so using him for his own purposes is what? a ridiculous assumption? A pastor's job is to minister to his congregation. Mike seemed to be very concerned about his wife's state of mind, as in his statements about her putting a gun to her head. He said she was very close to her minister. If I were worried about my husband I would turn to his closest friend, or minister if it were, for help, too.

Anyway, enough of that.

Mike,

You said that your wife was a good mother, wife, community member, volunteer, etc for all those years, although she was short in meeting your E/N's. I have my own ideas about E/N meeting and how good a spouse is being measured by them, but that's another thread.

You also said that no one could believe her affair, even saying they thought she might have a brain tumor.

I don't know her, so don't really what kind of a woman she is, loving or otherwise, but you do.

If this is an aboration in character of the extremes her friends and family seem to think it is, then it is classical affair stuff.

Affairs are extremely addictive in nature.

So don't open your heart all the way just yet, demand transparency...be deligent on the transparency thing.

She may have ended it now, but experience tells us that given the chance at this state of withdrawal, she may succumb if the OM will let her.

And with that said, I am so glad that things are looking hopeful.

Oh, and make sure that you both are clear with each other in what you want/expect/hope for in your marriage going forward. It's almost impossible to read your spouse's mind. So with all the intoxicating make up stuff going on, talking about such things should come easy at this point. Intimacy is not a problem at the moment. So use it to communicate clearly.

Oh, btw, did you see JL's post a few pages back? I never saw your response to it and thought he made some really good points in asking you to get clear with yourself in what you need and want from a spouse.

Welp, that's my .02... Good luck to you both .

Mike, the point wasn't sleeping on a bed of nails. It was that it's rude and tacky to kick someone out of bed after having sex. If you wanted to make your wife feel like a wh0re, you have sex with her than tell her she's not good enough for your bed. I can totally see how you may want her to feel like she's trash. However, making her feel cheap and like garbage won't save your marraige.

If you want her to stay in the downstairs suite, I'm all for it. Maybe if you have sex down there with her until such time as she's welcome in your bed it would be better.

Is pity bad? I actually wouldn't call it pity, I'd cal it mercy. And we know about the quality of mercy don't we?

The quality of mercy is not strain'd,
It droppeth as the gentle rain from heaven
Upon the place beneath: it is twice blest;
It blesseth him that gives and him that takes:
'Tis mightiest in the mightiest: it becomes
The throned monarch better than his crown;His sceptre shows the force of temporal power,
The attribute to awe and majesty,
Wherein doth sit the dread and fear of kings;
But mercy is above this sceptred sway;
It is enthroned in the hearts of kings,
It is an attribute to God himself;

Emphasis added just in case someone gets lost in the beauty of the language, as I do. No one ever has said it better than Shakespeare.

If the decision was in haste, consider ways you can mitgate it. I actually like the apartment deal. And maybe you two come to an agreement about how much time you each spend in the common space and what's off limits to her. For now, nothing really should be off limits to you because you need to do due diligence in making sure she's towing the line. However, you may need some time and space away from her.

Also, just slow down. There is no reason at all why you need to give an answer to anything immediately. "Let me sleep on it" and "I need to think about this for a couple of days" is a legitimate answer. If you make this your default answer to everything, then you buy time. You can always come back in an hour with an answer, but you are less likely to be manipulated if you buy time.

Yes.

Beautiful and relevant Shakespeare quote, Greengables.

I'm going to have to go one that I am thinking of now as well. Hope I can find it.

brief t/j
Hmmm...I hardly think he considers ANYTHING religious as a bible thumper, since he himself refers to the Koran; therefore, he'd want to kick himself off his own thread. More likely, he wants people off his thread who show their own disdain for anyone who doesn't follow their agenda.

From Wikipedia:
Bible thumper (also Bible beater, Bible basher, Bible humper) is a term used to describe Christian fundamentalists, or anyone perceived as aggressively pushing their Christian beliefs upon those who do not share them. Its target domain is broad and can often extend to anyone engaged in a public show of religion, fundamentalist or not.

See also:
Anti-Christian discrimination
Fundie
Holy roller
Jesus freak

I hardly see someone who is concerned for his wife's religious well-being who contacts her minister as using God. I see him as someone with compassion for his wife, despite what she has done to him. Pretty much the opposite, kwim?

Josie,

Good post.

JL and I are corresponding via email so the back and forth here is choppy.

Just FYI, I've know JL and K since about 1999 or so....

Never thought I'd need them...

Actually, I told her that I felt good with her when we were talking os cuddling or etc, but if she was asleep next to me the evil thoughts about the OM would be too much.

She totally understood and has no prob with it.

And I didn't even use Shakespeare on her.

GG,

Thanks for the input.

Right now everything is normal for the family. She is spending a lot of time with me in the master bedroom, and just sleeping downstairs. We don't need any rules about common areas or whatever, we aren't hating each other, in fact it is very lovey-dovey, approaching nauseam.

She's singing for her supper.

This might have made sense if it weren't for the fact that the chicken came before the egg - he asked bible thumpers to stay off his thread only after you said that the issue at hand was his being a closet atheist and not having a relationship with God.

I cannot disagree with him being annoyed by someone whose response to his wife's affair is "well, how close are you to God?".. I think my first response would also be "WTF???".

AGG

Would be happy to catch you up, it's been a very long time indeed.

AGG

lol....well struck.

You are a good poster, pariah. What's your story?

Mine's pretty dramatic and fractured.

Long story short, married boss chases my wife, toxic friend of wife who is having an affair of her own ENCOURAGES wife to have an affair, I suspect something's up for a year or so, I gather evidence, get her trying to have OM kill me on tape, I get near fatlly wounded in a hunting accident, spent three months in the hospital, when I can barely walk again I extort OM with exposure, he refuses, I do a nuclear exposure on Christmas Eve, wifey dumps me off on the side of the road crippled in the middle of nowhere, I expose to our church and they "advise" me not to return as it's not good for their "image", she divorces me.

Since then OM dumped her at exposure and didn't leave his wife and rescue her, she lost her job, lost our house and is moved in with her father.

(sensory overload)

TJing:

Pariah, you'd better write it down and send it off to the copyright office. I think your story would make an excellent screen play. The only question is whether you want to write it as a drama or a dark comedy. I personally vote for dark comedy. Plus, your character would hook up with a MUCH better, gorgeous, sweet woman in the end. And your pet could have a starring role.

I like it. Kathy Bates as the wife, Danny Devito as the boss. Chistopher Walken plays the preacher. The Kumar Indian guy plays Pariah.

Oh, please, Mike - Danny DeVito?

I know. So cliche.

I was going to cheer Pariah up and say his wife would be played by Ed Asner in drag.

My ex-wifey is one of those girls that was a gymnast in high school and still looked 25 at 40.

However we divorced at 44 and her shelf life is really starting to show.

She had dreams of working on a dive-cruise boat, but tourists want the 20 year old hot chick, not the 44 year old has-been trying to get them to fawn over her and hop into bed with the tourists or the crew mates.

She ain't gonna catch herself no sugar daddy now, unless he has one foot in the grave and senile.

Mike, if what you say is true about your job and house, she'd be all over you like stink on a gorilla, except she'd EXPECT you to support her hobby and it would be a total independent behavior.

send pic

Mike,

I am sorry to have to read this situation as well. . . and yes, i am a card carrying atheist, and had to go through something similar. However, I suspect that the more self control and less revenge control you can show, ie. more leadership within the family you can show, the better able the kids can learn from and not carry this damage into adulthood. . .

YOu have plenty of time to divorce your wife, several to many years. You don't have much time left to show your children how to manage a family crises properly or well, before they leave. . . which is how K and JL want to help you manage. . .

And this is the best time to figure out if you can make a lasting connection/relationship with your W to carry you through retirement. . . although I understand your wife's disconnect, as my X had the same different lifestyle version. . . but my X had reasons to want blue collar, no collar wife beater, people, so she can be the boss in charge, her female relatives all married cousins of casper milquetoast. . . back to you news reel. . .

take the opportunity to see if you can forge a relationship which will carrythrough retirement, and show your family how to lead through crises. . . that people can recover and learn from big mistakes. .. and what can lead to mistakes. . .

you have all the power right now in the relationship. .. don't abuse it and don't squander it. . .

good luck

wiftty

WIFTY...

I remember you...long time....8 years?

Your post is very wise. My kids have been scarred. We took them to their pastor this AM.

You are right. The situation is in my hands, and whatever I do will have everyone's understanding and support, basically.

So the best thing right now is to gather data and let things cool, I guess.

I find that the current situation is very easy to plot....when she is all over me with affection and attention it is easy to forgive. When I'm alone, at 1:59 am, it is hard not to hate....

After reading this thread I just want to say there is plenty of time for "Remorse and Restituition". It seems you are very angry and doing some things based on those "feelings". It is OK to be angry, but do not do anything that does not add love to your wife's love bank. For every action think "How is this going to add to her love? or will it take away from her love?"

If you concentrate on the negative, angry things, she will tire of trying to pleaase and eventually destroy you again. This is guaranteed. Look at her affection/attention as an opportunity. Put away the thoughts of remose/vengeance/anger/etc. Years from now, your will have the remorse you are looking for.

The end game is not now, it is creating something viable for a lifetime.

WIFTY,

I am an ENFP, and my wife is an ISTP, so three different, but frankly I think she lied on the 4th one anyway.

I'll have to look at that program again, it was amazing.

Mike_C2

Your reaction is very understandable as an ExFx, as you feel more deeply than your W (F) and express more loudly (E) then her, depending upon upon how far to the F and how far to the T you two are on the scale. However, Ts do feel, (I am an INTP) it just takes much more hurt or a bigger incident to force expression of any feelings, and your behavior and the family's behavior have pushed your W from the normal T reaction into her F reactions . . . that's the difference you see between your observed reaction of your W initially making dinner, and her current reactions of crying and sobbing. . .. . . .

That being said, you have the ability to understand your W more than she does. . . because you are an xNxP. . . and in that respect, you have the ability to understand her and help her lead the family out of crises. .

Another important point that you need to remember, is that at her age, your W's hormone levels are starting to drop, and that changes people, as I am aware of my hormone levels dropping also. My GF, who is very in touch with herself, discusses her hormone changes to me. . . as your W's hormones slowly drop, and her family is starting to become more independent, primarily the kids, her interpretation of the world is probably changing and right now may be different that yours, and that is a very real issue with which to deal. My X refused to admit to menopause, even though she had the crying jags over nothing. . . etc. So internally, if she is not in touch with her body and her feelings, the affair may have been unintended medication to her internal changes. .

If you want an secondary explanation of affairs, which is more diverse and exploratory than the Harleys', read "Private Lies" by PhD Dr Frank Pittman, a practicing psychologist who deals exclusively with affairs. . . and i paraphrase from reading along time ago, accidental affairs, with remorse and understanding, are more common than realized, and are the easiest to recover from. . . habitual are the hardest, of course, but habitual are learned beliefs from childhood. . .

Finally, your view of your W, from several of your descriptions, is one of physical attractiveness, and dedication to her family, which is good, but her view of you is the key to your understanding. She appears to have low emotional esteem, given her initial responses and the person she chose (less intelligence), which might mean that she needs different support than you have been giving her. Items to explore in marriage counseling. . .

So there are several potential issues for you and her to come to an understanding, and then, once these unobservable issues, are openly discussed, and communed upon, then real healing and long term decisions can be made. . .

good luck.

wiftty

Wiffty, this was a brilliant post, right on the money.

Can I email you?

AGG has my email. . .

interpret neurological issues as latent, genetic tendencies. . . meaning new genetic issues appearing. .

wiftty

wiffty, AGG said he misplaced your email....could you send it to him again? Or K or Kam...I'd like to talk with you.

KAM has my email address, though i will be travelling, so you also have my work email. . . and its monitored, so no pictures. .

wiftty

I want to apologize for snapping at people last week. I can only claim....heck, you know.

Anyway, any and all advice welcome. We have a first counseling session with Jennifer in two hours (and three minutes).

Everything has been "ok", a few emotional breakdowns by me but not LBing. She has slept with me the last two nights but that is still an open issue. In fact not really sure she wants to, says it is "up to me".

Sex was a bandaid and that is wearing off I think...still every day...the one day we skipped I had an emotional crash, not manipulative, for real.

ENs and LBs process is going all right. Went to church with her....it was pretty good, actually.

She is saying all the right things, that as soon as her "confusion" wears off things will be better than ever, etc...

We'll see in two hours (and one minuite)....

Update for all those I haven't offended.....

Typical rollercoaster I guess. I tried to throw her out on Tuesday, she melted down, literally begged, promised the world, she'll throw herself in MB.....I relented. Told her she had to: 1: get on anti-deps, 2: get an STD test, 3: take more of the lead in scheduling MB etc, and 4. uh....I forget, there was a 4.

Next day I'm mushy and she is more distant.

On and on, flip and flop, emotions a wreck. She says each day will make it better. Doubts I'll forgive her, She's probably right.

Life Sux.

Ok, I'll bite.

I'll take a chance at posting to you again (in short: forgive) if you take a chance on her attempts (in short: forgive).

Please let's not get into an argument on the requirements for earning repentance, etc. I like your list of things she must do. I'm just saying, a nice symmetric but overly-simplistic way of phrasing it is, I'll forgive you if you'll forgive her.

If there's really no hope that you will ever forgive her, why keep her twisting in the wind? For revenge?

Of course there's not really an issue of whether or not I "forgive" you... like I said, overly-simplistic, but I do love the symmetry...

I haven't really pondered the dynamics or odds of forgiveness. Jennifer Harley says if you both fall in love and meet each other's needs etc all is naturally forgiven.

I guess that makes some hopeful sense, and my wife immediately parroted it back to me when we were arguing so I guess she gets the concept.

My behavior is the problem. I go from angry to weepy and cold to needy. I know I am letting my Taker rage and manipulating to get what I need with extreme behavior. I tried it on anti-deps and tried it off them.

It still feels like a knife in my hear every second of every day. Or actually, except for about an hour a day when we are in bed talking or whatever.

She is trying to make the family life go back to "normal" her words, and somehow I rebel at that instinctively.

And, yes :-), her pastor has been great and I'm talking one on one with him a lot.

I can certainly understand why you'd rebel at her wanting to get the family life to simply go back to normal - act as if it never happened - it did, and there are consequences. Your feelings are valid, you've been hurt deeply, she can't just pretend that never happened...

...typical wayward-speak to want to just get back to normal.

It's your raging Taker that scares me though. I'm sorry you're hurting so. I'm glad you're working with Jennifer Harley and talking to her pastor. I'm glad you recognize that you're letting your Taker rage. Do you think it helps you? (not being sarcastic) Do you think you will get to the point where it's more important to you to achieve happiness in your life than to punish WW? Whether that happiness is through R the M or through letting go.

mike, are you like this in other aspects of your life? Were you like this as a kid? I'm talking about the righteousness and swift, deliberate execution of penance. That's not a criticism, but an observation. I see so much of it in you, and it makes me wonder if that is simply a reactionary self-protection mechanism you learned in childhood. Something that worked then, but that may no longer be appropriate. I get the sense that, at least pre-A, you know what you want, you take it, and you accept nothing less. Some would call that aggressive, others tenacious. It's a great way to get the best parking spot, but I wonder if it's the right approach in your R with your wife.

My H is somewhat like that - swift and deliberate - and frankly, it distances me from him; keeps me from trusting him to be there for me, because I fear that if I don't offer him what he wants, it'll be me paying the price. So he doesn't get my affection/trust/loyalty, as I'm always waiting for the axe to fall.

What do you think?

Some things that people taught me when I was going through this stage.....

The waves of anger. I kept a To Do List handy that used the anger in constructive ways. There's a lot of energy with anger....and if it's focused effectively, it can make light work of heavier chores and/or projects. I kept a list because when a wave of anger hit, I wasn't able to think clearly enough at that time to figure out what to do with it. Choosing something off a list was much easier. My rule of thumb was if I couldn't decide, then do the first thing on the list.

The waves of weepy. My first choice was to stand under a hot shower and let the water rinse away my tears as they flowed. Or to turn on a sappy movie and cry over it (not my norm). I kept a supply of onions on hand to chop when people were around and I couldn't get away....for a while we had a lot of dinners that used onions whether they were necessary or not.

Cold to Needy. I kept a list of self-care things like reading a book, relaxing in the bathtub by candlelight, drinking hot coffee or hot chocolate, watching a movie while wrapped tightly in a blanket, listening to loud music, listening to soft soothing music, etc. The same list worked for when I felt cold or when I felt needy....when I actually used the list, that is. I found that it was much easier to deal with my anger and weepiness than it was to accept responsibility for dealing with withdrawing or feeling needy.


I don't blame you for rebelling against that....the old "normal" sucked and led to infidelity, didn't it?

What do you think about opening a conversation with your wife about things that you might want included in a "new normal"?


I promise you that it gets better, Mike_C2. It gets better as we get better. Really.

Take care

Well, general update, and overall a good one.

We exchanged our ENs last night as per Jennifer. A few surprises for me, but nothing that isn't doable or attemptible at least.

We clashed a bit over SF frequency but agreed that this is a near term and long term issue and we both have to compromise a bit until I calm down.

So...session with Jennifer Sunday night, we'll see how that goes.

PS: had some nagging questions I had to get cleared up about the A and got the right answers, or at least answers that didn't hurt any worse.

I'll answer the other posts separately.

Hi cat,

Well, jeez I guess that is something to think about, but given this unprecedented situation in my life I think I'm not behaving outside the norm, and probably much better than the norm.

quote]We clashed a bit over SF frequency but agreed that this is a near term and long term issue and we both have to compromise a bit until I calm down. [/quote]

I read somewhere that for men, sex releases some hormone (endorphins? or maybe the hormone women get when breastfeeding?) that gives the feeling of closeness and bonding, but women can get that same hormone release in several different ways. Hence the need from the guy's POV for more frequent sex to bond, often.

I can see that this might be one reason you want/need sex so often right now. Maybe knowing this will help her be even more enthusiastic. There's also at least one thread about how the guy felt the need to "reclaim" his wife through SF.

That is an issue with me, although it is fading. She rarely shows any emotion anywhere in her life. So I really don't see any price paid by her emotionally. She'll relate it in a business-like manner, her friends and family look at her differently, she is sorry she hurt me, etc, but no damage to her soul it seems in comparison to this huge wound to mine.

But, as JL said earlier in this thread, do I want damage to her soul, or do I want to be happy in a "new" marriage with her?

If the other FWW here are any example, she WILL eventually feel remorse.

I pray that day comes, and soon.

Meanwhile, I don't think you being vindictive, mean, etc., will hasten that day.

I think we aired out both those concepts, but also wrapped around it is our own history. For many years she felt pushed into too much SF, and got pretty withdrawn about it. When we knocked it back to around once a week she started initiating and was a lot more enthusiastic. And that was okay for me, quality over quantity when things were peaceful.

So that is the real toughie for me this week. I want to have sex twenty times a day, I guess for the reasons you state. She says she is at risk of burning out and becoming reluctant/non-passionate/whatever.

That happened once last week and I tell you it was a major LB to me, I really crashed hard and re-thought the whole reconciliation.

So we are working out compromises and I'm trying to hold back the frequency demands a bit. Plus she is doing some stuff that makes me very happy. None of your business :-)

I agree that me being mean would be exactly counter-productive to that goal, if it is a goal, which I guess it shouldn't be.

If she ever does feel remorse in her soul she would be the last person on earth to let anyone know through a real emotive outburst, though. I mean, she says all the right things now, it was a stupid mistake, she has to live with the consequences, she feels like an "ex-con"...etc, but it seems to come from the head not the heart.

I'm thinking of getting some XTC. :-)

:MrEEk:

Mike in my experience, a fully repentant FWW will torture themselves for a long time over having an affair. My wife is still struggling with forgiving herself after 3 years - and she knows I have forgiven her and God has forgiven her. FWW's don't have an easy path.

You're aware, aren't you, about how most women need to be 'made love to' rather than just getting it on? In other words, what else are you doing for her that makes her want to have SF with you? Are you helping her put up laundry? Are you fixing things around the house? Are you sharing kitchen duty? Are you going on walks with her? Holding hands? Playing cards together? Going to movies?

All these types of things are the real foreplay for women. Sure, the SF, but if the rest isn't happening, we do, indeed, often feel like just a vessel for men. She needs to feel like you're interested in her whole person, in being around her, doing things for her, caring about her health, etc., and not just happy that she's willing to 'do it' with you.

Yes, you make a good point, although I just put up a post in EN called "Sex Question For Women" that I'd like your opinion on.

Events are moving so fast it is hard to relate them all here. I just found renewed contact, also in another thread.

****edit****

You know I've been thinking about this for a while now. I keep hearing about how women are turned on by a guy who helps around the house and takes care of the dishes...

OM did none of that. Not one time did he wash a dish, mow the lawn, cook dinner for her, help with laundry...

I would guess that the romantic walk in the park while holding hands was in play, but when it comes to helping around the house or anything along those lines, it never happened.

OTOH, I have done my own laundry for years, did the kids' as well for most of our marriage and do hers about once per week. I do the real cooking for the most part, do dishes at least sometimes (keep in mind that we have a grown daughter living with us with her daughter.)

So while I see this in books from Dobson to Smalley I wonder if it really has any bearing whatsoever. Are women turned on by a guy doing dishes or is the quintessential OM too hot to ignore (anybody see the movie Unfaithful?)

If all this is true how does one explain the fact that a woman having an affair will often practically attack her lover in a public place while telling her husband to wait till later when he tries to pat her on the butt because he thinks she looks good? Or how is it that a WW will rut in the back seat of a car like a teenager while telling her husband that the stress of the party they are going to is too much and she doesn't know if she'll feel like it later when he tries to steal a glance at her legs as she gets into the car? Why would a grown married woman send naked pictures of herself and poems that she wrote just for him to a lover when her husband seldom gets an email or SMS telling him to pick up milk on the way home from work?

Just wondering...

Sorry for the tj.

Mark

frankly, based on my experience and time on this site, I would suggest that a lot of WS have a rather whorish side of themselves that they attempt to subdue in their marriages.

It is right for men to help out and respect their wives. Unfortunately, many owmen prefer people that treat them like a piece of meat....while they are ringing the "come and get it" bell. Go figure.