It was suggested I do a recovery thread since H and I are now into 9 months of recovery in the MB at home program. This is the *short* version. OK, so, not so short - but shorter than reading through my whole thread in the SAA forum.

After 19+ years of marriage my husband up and told me in April 2010 that he was no longer in love with me. He claimed there was no one else, and that he knew he would never have "those feelings" for me again. Thankfully, I had read (years ago) James Dobson's book, Love Must be Tough - a GREAT book about the psychology of relationships and what to do and not do in marital crisis. Because of this, I was able to respond appropriately to H's bomb and NOT react emotionally. This was key, I feel, in eventually reconciling. Dr. Harley's works are a lot more specific in dealing with all of this, but Dobson helped me get the tough love mindset, being that I had no knowledge of Dr. Harley's works at the time.

Needless to say, I was shell-shocked by this bomb. It came out of nowhere for me at the time. In hindsight, I should've seen the warning signs that something was amiss. I immediately went to work on myself. Unknowingly I was in Plan A in MB terms. I did this for several months and even went back to school to finish my degree.

At the beginning of June, I discovered a very sexual text message H sent to me by mistake that was supposed to go to OW! Now, I had searched and searched for proof that there was someone else prior to this, but found nothing concrete. I'd seen some facebook messages I didn't like, but nothing incriminating. I immediately confronted H about it. He stated it was nothing - that it didn't matter anyway because he was planning on leaving. Basically, I said, "there's the door." I thought at the time because I'd stood tall against having a third party in my marriage and told him he was free to go and he chose not to, that he was ready to work on saving our marriage and give it a chance. I started counseling. He went once. That should've spoke to me louder than it did at the time.

At the end of July, we went to a "save your marriage" workshop held by New Beginnings. He didn't want to go but supposedly was working on the marriage at the time, so he grudgingly went with some pushing from our 3 kids. At the end of it, he was still unwilling to commit to the future of our relationship. Once again, I told him he was free to go if he wanted out and was not willing to look for hope that we could have a better life. Once again, he chose not to go. I was fortunate that New Beginnings uses a lot of Harley's works, including Fall In Love, Stay in Love.

After that, I started seeing some small improvements in H's behavior. He wasn't "back" but he was trying. Well, I now realize he was trying only so I wouldn't make him leave. He was torn. He didn't want to leave his kids and didn't want to be the bad guy by leaving me, but he was entangled in an affair. I found that out the beginning of October. (NEVER ignore that gut feeling and gather every bit of intel you can!)

Once I'd gathered the proof I needed, I confronted H about the OW. A big fight ensued and I gave him an ultimatum: end the affair, commit to saving the marriage, or go. He left. Within 2 days I exposed the affair to our 3 children (late teens) and found information on the OW and exposed to her husband's brother and sister-in-law and others I'd found on facebook. (I could not get direct contact info on the OWH.) H was LIVID, needless to say. I got text messages, emails, and phone calls that made my hair stand on end!!! However, within days the affair ended. H wanted to go to counseling. Then he said he wanted to work things out. After much discussion and boundaries set, H moved back home late November. We are now happily reconciling using the Marriage Builders at home program. LOVE it! There are challenges, for sure, but it is well worth it and I couldn't ask for things to be going better at this point.

I truly believe there were many keys to me maintaining my sanity and ability to lead us back from the brink of divorce:

#1: God gave me strength I never thought I could have. I prayed A LOT and read a lot of scripture that was very fortifying and encouraging.

#2: God put people in my life to provide support. It took some hand-holding to get through exposure, and the people here at MB were vital to me! Also, I got "real life" support through friends. I didn't tell everyone I know, but a few key friends I knew were pro-marriage and had my best interests at heart.

#3: I took care of myself and my kids. I took a hard look at what H had to say were my faults and realized some of those were true and I needed to change. I did and still am. I started taking better care of myself physically - exercising and eating right. I had heart to hearts with my 3 kids about what I needed to improve in my relationships with them. I became a more positive person. I also went to the doctor and was put on a very mild anti-depressant (short-term) to help me cope.

#4: Getting a life of my own helped give me the confidence I needed to overcome my feelings of how to react in my situation: to do what was best instead of how I felt - and overcome my fears in doing so. It also helped me start realizing my own self worth again!

#5: I absorbed the information from the forums and books. I thought it all through and employed what I felt best for my marriage. Harley's program made sense to me. Mainly, I think the principles I hung on to were that respect is at the bottom of every relationship. If you don't respect yourself, your spouse will not either. If your spouse does not respect you, he or she cannot love you!

I think "tough love" is also at the basis for every good method of dealing with all of this. You have to be tough - to hold your spouse accountable and maintain the line of self respect. However, you also have to be loving: anything you do that is mean, vindictive, or out of anger and lashing out is counter-productive. Finding the balance is HARD at times! Someone once called it being a "quiet warrior." I like that term. If you follow the plan and get good advice, it helps you find that balance.

If you are dealing with infidelity, you simply CAN NOT save your marriage with the 3rd person in it! You must get rid of that person in order to begin recovery of any sorts. Thus, you have to let go, set your spouse free, and by all means, expose the affair if it will do any good in your situation to end it. (I say the if part in that last sentence because this HAS to be done in the right way.) I was very fortunate to have someone lead me through this process step by step and others holding my hand while I did so.

Lastly, whatever you do, you must have WISE counsel throughout it all. Not all therapists are equal and not all advice is equal. Another must - getting past your fears of pushing your partner further away in the most trying circumstances. It's not for sissies! If you just look for people who tell you what you want to hear instead of what you need to hear, you'll never make it.

I'm sure after writing this I'll think of 10 other things to say. If you have any questions, let me know - I'm glad to help others through this very tough time.

If you are interested in more specifics, you can find them on my thread, here: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2435323#Post2435323

So a 10-to-12 month EA/PA was blown up within two days of exposure? I will bookmark your story, Sunny, and send every tremulous "Should-I-really-do-that?" BH right here. Hope you can handle the traffic!

Thanx for sharing the summary.

Dang, she done good, didn't she?

Yes... it did not take long and anyone who doubts whether or not they should expose should be given my story!

I know not everything works as quickly as it did in my sitch, but I was glad I followed the right advice despite the apprehension I felt.

YES, they really should do it! And I can handle the traffic.

Hey, Sunny - I think it would be great if you could occasionally check out the SAA threads. We get sooo many betrayeds who are afraid to expose and need help wrapping their minds around the concept! Comments from survivors who followed the plan are always helpful!

Sure thing, MB.

I had a question I wondered if anyone could help me with. I still feel stuck on the affair in some ways - or possibly, even more these past few weeks than while in early recovery. I don't know if it is PTSD or if it's a normal phase or what! When H and I first reconciled, I didn't think much about what he and OW did. When we discussed the affair, I wasn't one who wanted a lot of details. I got all the basics and that was all I really wanted to know. Didn't want to hear about what positions they tried or if he said ILY ... where they went... none of that. I know myself and I have a hard time letting go of some things. Also, I felt the less specifics I knew, the easier it would be to forgive H.

Well, the last several weeks, the OW has been popping up in my mind more than ever. I've been wondering about just what they did all weekend when he flew off to see her those weekends. I thought the answer was for H and I to go back and redo some of the workbook things. You know - focus on OUR relationship - on making it better - and the triggers would subside. It hasn't helped.

I don't get it: our relationship is going really good! We're spending at least 15 hours together a week UA, meeting needs, avoiding LBs... but the thoughts just pop in my head at the strangest times!

H has been very good about being there for me when I trigger. I can't say we talk a lot about it. I try very hard to not commit LBs when my mind goes to that bad place.

I know time is the answer, but I just think I need better ways to cope... I don't know.

Hi Sunny! I am of two minds here. When a BS doesn't have all the facts, she tends to get STUCK wondering what happened. Do you need to know what happened? For me, I would need all those facts in order to move on.

On the other hand, you are going to think about it. That is part of recovery and is an expectation the first year especially. The thoughts fade in the second year.

Do you need those facts filled in to move on?

I honestly didn't think I did need to know. I weighed what I *had* to know at the time with the things that I was better off leaving alone, and felt at peace with the discussions. However, being that I'm feeling stuck, I'm not sure if I got enough info or not.

As you can imagine, H had no desire to share things unless I forced the issue - as most fws's don't. He made it clear that he was willing to talk about whatever it took for me to heal, but his thoughts were that details would make things worse for me.

I'm not sure right now if I need more information to recover, or if it's just the thought of the "anniversaries" coming up that are causing so much triggering. This time last year is when things began to heat up and I discovered the affair in early October, etc...

I'm not at the point where I want to insist on more info, but I don't want to remain stuck either.

Sunny,

It sounds as if you don't really want any additional information. Rather, the anti-versaries are coming up and triggering you. The one year marks were tough for me. It gets better though.

I will look for and bump Mark's thread on memory management. It is an excellent thread about why triggers happen and approaches to managing them.

AM

I would need to know in order to move on. Otherwise, I would wonder and wonder and the wondering would drive me crazy. I suspect this might be happening to you. It is going to hurt short term to hear it, but I think it will help you move forward. Just his willingness to tell you everything will go a very long way. It is hard to rebuild trust when there are secrets between the OW and your H to which you are not privy. If you do this, I would promise to never bring it again.

I had to know everything as well. I agree with Mel in that your H's willingness to tell you will go a long way.

AM

Good thoughts! Thanks for weighing in AM, and thanks to you, as always, Mel.

I guess the thing is, you never really *want* to hear more, but weighing what not knowing will do to you and your marriage is important. It doesn't help that many MCs and things you find on the web actually discourage talking about the details! I know H brought that up in the past. He knows we are sticking with the MB program, but did some research himself on the subject and doesn't get that most marriage counseling sucks. A lot of them recommend not discussing specifics. It wasn't a big deal at the time since I didn't want them anyway, but lets face it: most MCs are dealing with theory.

I like the anti-versaries term!

We have a very busy next few days - going out of town for the weekend and such. I want to consider everything carefully and approach it all in the right manner, for myself and the marriage and will revisit it early next week.

My fear is, what if I hear all the dirty details and then it haunts me even more - forever?! What if knowing more doesn't resolve my stuck-ness and makes it worse? You can't unhear what you've heard and I'm very cognizant of that.

SDIT, do you remeber the old mind-game where somebody tells you, "Whatever you do, don't think of elephants!"

Well, sadly you own psyche may well be telling you, "Whatever you do, don't think of dates, times, positions, and acts that defined your WH's affair."

I'd suggest waiting out the anti-versary period, and see if the "mind-movies" reduce. If not, you probably will have to kill them with your WH's aid. Think of ripping off a scab on a seriously infected wound to excise the infection, and start the true healing. It will hurt like hell.....and then it won't.

But let's be crystal clear on this: He gets NO say in what you tell him you need to know, in what format, or to what level of detail.

NG, that's a good way to look at it. I keep wanting so much to not think about things that I'm thinking about them, you're right.

I know H won't want to talk about it again, but I also know he is willing to do whatever necessary. I used to think it was all about him: not wanting to face up to what he did. Part of me even worried at times that it was because he still romanticized the affair. Now, however, with all he has done and has been willing to do, I see it differently. I think now it truly does hurt him to see me hurt - and to know he caused it is very hard on him.

I also know in Mr. Sunny's mind that if he hadn't "truly thought our marriage was over" he would've never gone to see OW and had the PA. We haven't talked about this in a long time - but I want to make sure he understands, without a shadow of a doubt, that had he not started emailing and chatting it up with her, he would've never felt our "marriage was over" to begin with. He would've never started to develop the feelings that started making his psyche start to view me so terribly in the first place to justify his EA he was conducting via email/facebook. He knows he can't text/email/message/chat up other women at all now, without my knowledge...but I keep asking myself if he really understands that his negative feelings towards our marriage came from his inappropriate behavior in the first place. Not saying I was perfect or our marriage was either, pre-crisis, but had he not started down that path he wouldn't have had to negate me to justify his starting all that up.

I think now it truly does hurt him to see me hurt - and to know he caused it is very hard on him.

Fully a year after our "crisis", my bride and I were joking about something silly that she did (I think it was locking her keys in the car), and she started to talk, turned deathly pale and started crying.

I finally pried it out of her that in response to my jibing, she was about to answer, "Well, it doesn't mean I'm not a good person," when she self-interrupted her thought train, and told herself, "You are NOT a good person, and can never again consider yourself one, after your actions."

As much as we BSs suffer through discovery and initial recovery, when the WS finally "gets it", I wouldn't trade our pain for theirs if you threw in all of Solomon's treasure. That said, I reiterate that he MUST accede to your request for whatever "history" you may require.

It is not usually the knowing that gets people stuck, but the not knowing. When you have the facts, you are able to put everything into perspective. Your mind seeks to do this when you have a trauma. But when you don't have the facts, you continually wonder and stay stuck because of the inability to put the puzzle together. Putting the puzzle together allows you to come to terms with it and it is at that point that ones moves onto the next phase of recovery.

The ones who don't move on are the ones that don't have enough facts to complete the picture. It might be that you don't have a complete picture yet.

Hmmm...it may take awhile for me to actually want to "trade pains" with him. BUT...I guess you're right: when a good person does something as horrific as to betray their loved ones, it's gotta hit deep down.

I'm sure shame is a driving force - to not want to go into the details again. However, I do believe he will tell all I ask for even if he doesn't want to. I will make sure I don't harp on it. As Mel said - a one time thing, get it all out - be done with it.

I hate opening the wound back up but you know what? I don't want to stay stuck forever. Honestly - I think what he will tell me is probably not as bad as what I've got in my mind. I think that's the difference between a FWS and FBS: the FWS thinks we aren't imagining the worst, and more than likely, we are.

Timing will be important here.

I do have the big picture, but it isn't all in focus, perhaps. I know who, how long, how many times he went to see her, their background together, how they started up, and the general nature of things. I know she told him her H was abusive (GAG) and what all he told her about our life. I read emails between the two of them so I know the nature of their conversations. Of course, I didn't read all emails - just some. (I wouldn't want to read all.)

What I don't know are the small details: you know, sexual positions...where he took her for dinner (assuming they went out) did she spend the night with him or did she go back to her husband since they were in her town? I never asked the questions such as, "What was it like?" because I really didn't want to know. I also never asked the "feelings" questions: how did he make her feel or vice versa...I didn't want to help romanticize the darn thing!

Does that help clarify?

Now see, these questions are in a very different category in my mind. For example, sexual positions and "what was it like" are not really something I would need to know to complete the picture, but where they ate and if they spent the night together would be relevant facts I would need to know to get the full picture. Why don't you just ask him tonight?

I wouldn't bother with this because he cannot possibly know that.

SunnyD, this is a tough, tough question, I know. (And I can only know it 2nd-hand, as I wasn't the BS.)

Some people say that knowing what happened -- the whens, wheres, even the hows -- sometimes helps draw limits around a BS's pain. With that info, what went on finally becomes finite in the BS's mind. Without that info, the BS can imagine endlessly.

But I've never been in a BS's mind (and hope I never am), so I can't truly know; and maybe it's not the same for every situation.

Some of the things my wife was worried about were things like, did I think OW was better; and had OW & I shared things that previously only W & I had shared; and had OW & I shared things that W & I hadn't shared? After the affair, I was able to credibly (and as it happens, honestly) state that from an SF standpoint, OW & I hadn't "done" anything that W & I hadn't done in our (at the time) 16+ years of marriage, and that OW wasn't better in terms of "skills" or whatever you want to call it. In some ways, she was less adept than my wife. I was honest in saying that where OW had come out ahead in my addled mind (during the affair) was in terms of her enthusiasm for me, in her attentiveness toward me & in how she spoke her mind. (Well, no kidding... 'cuz I was devoting my extra thoughts & attention to OW in my scarce spare time, rather than to my W, so in restrospect, at the time I certainly wasn't giving my wife all I could've given, that might've helped fill her LB & show her more to be enthusiastic or attentive about!)

But that 'enthusiasm' issue was temporary, and it was fixable, as we learned about emotional needs. (To complement EPs & boundaries, of course.)

It was a hard conversation, for both of us. Especially for her. I think it was reassuring on some level, but it wasn't easy at all, and not knowing what your H's perspectives & answers might be, I can't guarantee that you'll feel better afterwards than before. But keep talking. W & I have found that, if stuff is bothering us, the worst thing we can do is let it fester, and the best approach is to hold hands & talk & put it out there & try to deal with it.

I agree, Mel, that some of the finite details are probably still things I don't need to know to get the full picture. Some of the others you mentioned - are ones that I believe need answering. I'm glad you agree with me on the "feelings" questions because I really was not wanting to go there but would if it was a necessary evil. I just think to have him think back to that mental state, like I mentioned, possibly would just make it seem romantic still. Why make him think of her and that time period fondly?! And, like you said, it's speculation and a fantasy world anyway.

Glove Oil alluded to the same thing: OF COURSE OW made him feel good about himself and he did the same for her. How could they not being that they had no real world problems to deal with and only focused on each other to the detriment of everyone else?

GO, thanks for the insight. I don't expect it to be pleasant but I do think festering is a bad, bad thing.

Mel, as for asking him tonight... I had class all evening. I just got home and am dead tired. I don't think I'm ready for an emotionally spent evening, because I'm sure it will bring some of that. Plus, I want to prepare. I want to make sure that I get it ALL out - and that I don't hold back and have to have the same kind of conversation again later. Of course, some of these things just popped into my head recently. Perhaps something else could pop up months from now, who knows. I reserve the right to still ask if I need to! LOL. Right???

Trust me, I have not made the affair the focus of any part of our relationship or recovery in terms of bringing it up or constantly nitpicking about it. I try hard to find the balance between my "rights" as the faithful spouse and hurting our recovery by taking advantage of those rights inappropriately.

GO has brought up some good questions in terms of focus on the conversation.

I'll be frank - I dread it. I don't want to have the conversation, but it sounds more and more like it's needed - perhaps not every tiny detail, but in some of the things that keep popping up. Hard to believe I never even wondered before if she spent the night or not! Want to know when that popped in my head? Right in the middle of SF....Great, huh?!

Dr. Harley's advice is to gather all the details you need in one session if possible, then never ever discuss the details of the affair again. Jennifer Harley Chalmers' advice to me personally was to never discuss it with my wife again, and if I had questions to ask her (Jennifer) and not my wife.

I can certainly see that point, Door, thanks for sharing!

I guess my issue is that perhaps I should've gotten more out at the beginning of recovery. I have not been one to harp on it at all. In fact, there's been no conversing about it since H moved back home. I won't even say the OW's name, in fact!

I think the concept is, you hinder recovery if your focus is on the past and you are just LBing all over the place if you bring it up all the time - for both spouses. However, if you can't get full closure without further information, then perhaps another conversation is in order.

Did Jennifer explain to you why to never discuss again in particular? Also, did you have further questions that you addressed to her rather than your wife? Did it do any good?

Sucks, right?

Happens to me all the time. Though, not questions - just straight up mind-movies. Or glimpses.

Take a breath, and do what you can to just be present in the very moment you are in, there in the room with your H.

TMI warning;


Why not bring it up? Because recall grants strength and longevity to memories. The physiological reaction (stress) to painful memories encodes them rather hard. By distancing yourself from those memories, and building new, better memories, you can reduce the impact of random recall and triggers.

It DOES suck, HHH! I guess you're right though...you have to turn it around when the mind movies happen! lol

I certainly see what you're saying with the encoding bit. I know all of that plays a part. That's why I was having a hard time deciding whether or not I needed another conversation for closure purposes or if I was just triggering. Where I'm seeing the difference is that I'm not wanting to rehash old stuff, I'm seeking information I never had. That could be the difference.

Sorry slow responding; I find that I need to keep my doses of this forum short and infrequent or I tend to get a bit negative.

My problem was "why" questions. Jennifer seized on that and explained that she could answer "why" types of questions more easily than my wife. Love Bank balances and non-exclusive Needs Meeting explains the vast majority of "why".

I threw a bunch of questions at her, and most of them were answered within that framework. Thinking through the concepts of the Three States of Marriage, Love Bank Balances, and Exclusive Needs-Meeting helped me realize that by far the vast majority of my questions about FWW's behavior were answered by thinking through what her state of mind would have been when she made those decisions.

Dr. Harley's advice is pretty explicit, though: get the answers that you need, and then never bring the affair up again.

At times like these, it's useful to have a friend -- or a forum -- to vet your questions. Often they will be answered by asking "why do you need to know?" Understanding what it is you're trying to accomplish by asking the question, and often the answer will present itself.

Acceptance comes slowly. Part of that acceptance is knowing that your spouse did terrible things that they will never do again... and sometimes, being content to know that you don't need every detail.

I completely understand about keeping your thoughts on the positive side!

I don't really have the nagging question of "why" like most former BS's. All along I've known (at least logically) why. I did wonder HOW at times: how he could do it, knowing it was so wrong, but why was easier for me to answer.

The details thing, well, I'm still struggling. Harley says it's important to get all your questions answered. Others here have alluded to needing some details to get closure. WHy do I need to know? Well...I guess it's the same reason as why we (FBSs) need to know any of the details at all. It's not enough to say..."OH...he had an affair.... that's all I need to know as long as he doesn't do it again!"

Now, do I have sufficient details for final closure and just need to move past my questions of the moment? Well, that's why I asked in the first place.

Quite frankly, with the way our week has gone around here I haven't even thought about bringind it up: too busy and too much else on our plates. Maybe that's a good thing - for now.

Just a quick update and request for advice on how to handle an upcoming situation.

Things have been crazy busy at my house the past few weeks. Kids' activities, H's work, my school.... just beyond the usual amount of things. With homecoming out of the way and a few projects, I'm hoping things slow down a bit. H and I have gotten in time together, but not as much as we should. I always feel a bit off when our UA time is not up to par! That needs to be remedied right away! Things have been good still, but just don't feel as connected as when our focus is on each other more.

As for advice: We have an event we are attending tomorrow night (Fri) with S15. It's nothing big - just an annual outing with his Jr. ROTC group. It's a big trigger for me though. Why? Well, last year when we attended this event it was awful! S15 was with his friends most of the night and H and I were together. Well, physically we were together but we couldn't have been more apart. He was a jerk a good part of the night to me. It was all mostly passive-agressive stuff, but it hurt - badly. It was like being with a block of ice all night. He treated me like he barely knew me in ways.

Now, I know it will be different this year - that's the good news! The bad news is, I have some anger in me - and resentment -about last year. I don't know if I should tell him this or leave it alone and just work at making it a fun night.

This whole next month is going to be like this for me, and I need to cope well with it. This is "the month"....all the anti-versaries, etc... leading up to the discovery, his leaving, etc...

I'm not anticipating this next month to be easy and I need to be strong! I'm even wondering if I should've gone back on ADs, if just temporarily.

I hear the year anniversary of recovery can be tough. I'm sure it's because of all the bad memories and everything that goes along with it... Any stories on how you guys got through it???

SD, I would tell him what you told us here and get his help in getting through this month. He can help you make new memories by being especially thoughtful and kind to you. And whatever you do, DON'T make the mistake I did in my first year and bring up the affair every time you are triggered. That was a disaster! When you think about it, don't talk about it, in other words.

After the 1 year mark I thought about it less and less until I no longer thought about it at all. So I would say you are in the home stretch! Hang in there, you have done SO WELL!!

Mel,

Thanks for your response here...all of your insight in answering these posts are helping me, and others, immensely.

(Interesting, b/c I can't wait to get through this time of the year, @ 1 year since d-day...my W can't wait to get through to March -- 1 year since exposure of the A...)


We probably don't say it enough to you, but thanks for caring enough to take time out of your busy life to help others recover their marriages and keep their families intact.

Thank you.

Agreed, wholeheartedly, Help! Mel helps so many people, in so many ways.

You bring up a good point that I hadn't thought of: I am looking at all of this through my own eyes and my H may have a point of reference he can't wait to get through as well. I tend to look at these things through my perspective alone since I was the one betrayed. Yet, I need to remember H has residual fallout as well. We need to help each other and not me just looking at my own stuff.

Mel, that's good advice. I have not said very much at all to him about the affair through all of this. I've been pretty darn good about that. Yet, in staying disciplined in that way I also sometimes forget to ask for what I need from him. It's a balancing act, isn't it? You have to stay away from LBs but ask for what you need so make sure ENs are getting met. Sometimes those things are intertwined and you have to separate them. Not always an easy task!

Thanks for your kind words, hfd and SD!

Had a long conversation with H yesterday about memories, triggers, and upcoming anti-versaries. I explained all I did here - that I would need him to be understanding, supportive, and patient this next month. He said what he usually says - that he doesn't expect me to just get over it; he will do whatever he can to make sure I know I'm the only one he loves, and he is 100% committed to recovery.

It was a good conversation. H brought up some other things as well - things that weren't necessarily what I had bargained for, but I'm glad he talked about them. He mentioned HIS triggers - in the sense of why he was tempted to stray in the first place. While I know some of these things were blown out of proportion to justify the affair, I readily admit areas where I made mistakes. I still take responsibility for those. We have to make sure we are continuing in our changes - including my personal ones. I've been a bit self-centered in thinking about only my feelings lately. Perhaps rightly so in the sense that I have the bigger stuff - and the bigger triggers - to get over. Yet, I have to make sure I am meeting his needs and being the best wife I can be!

I told H that he needs to remember to ask for what he needs. I reiterated that I WANT him to be happy - I want to do things for him. Neither one of us are the greatest in this area it appears. Neither of us likes to ask for anything!

It was strange in that it was an almost business-like conversation - not very emotional. That was OK though. We both felt very positively about how it went.

One thing of note... H mentioned how when he made the decision to reconcile, a big mind shift had occurred because it was what HE was choosing...not that he was being led around in a life that he had no control over. This just reiterates to me how a wayward is operating totally in the point of view of feeling trapped. Everything they do while feeling trapped is to get away from their spouses. This is why no method of reasoning, begging, pleading, or trying to make them fall in line works. They just feel you're trying to trap them further. That's our instincts though - to want to hold on tightly when someone's pulling away.

Hey, Sunny:

We, too, have been discussing triggers, etc.

I've also said that I will need EXTRA help during the ANTIversaries, including this weekend (it started last year this weekend), and other dates leading up to DDay.

One of the things I really want him to do is to get on this website and offer someone else some help. I love reading GloveOil's posts. He's a FWH, and MB expert, and I know I would feel such a sense of pride if my FWH were to be so sure of his thoughts, words, deeds, that he would offer to help someone else.

He recently said he would consider it, after doign more reading of the forum (we only did the book/worksheets).

But keep up the good work! Sounds like you guys are building a great foundation to beat just about anything!

Thanks, SweetPea, for your support!

The triggers are hard at times. I hold onto what everyone says - that after the anti-versaries it gets easier because you've dealt with it. I told my husband that while things are so much better - it really does take 2 years to really be healed - and that's if you do all your work!

I like Glove Oil's posts as well and love hearing from former waywards who have made amends. I've wondered if my husband would ever come post here, but likely not. He's not much of a forum person or one to discuss these things. It's hard enough to get him to discuss them with me. I have not pushed it, but perhaps I'll talk to him about it.

I hope this weekend has gone OK for you!!!!

Thanks Sunny!

This weekend went really well, all things considering. Not sure if you've peeked at my post: DDay anniversary on my mind," but we had a note from my sister-in-law (who has been destroyed by her husband's 30 years of cheating; my husband and hers are brothers).

If you want the details, take a peek. But ultimately, I found myself responding to her note with the reasons why I think my husband CAN change, HAS changed and WILL remain faithful. Heck, how I've changed (not always for the best, but hey, better than where I was on DDay, that's for sure).

I really hope my FWH has done enough soul-searching AND MB's techniques to not let his genetics/family upbringing interfere with his free will to choose to be faithful.

Glad to hear you like GLOVEOIL's posts. Yeah, my FWH isn't a joiner or much of a talker either. I was actually chided by my IC once for bemoaning the fact that my FWH took a few hours to digest something we were talking about, and then address is (fully!). I wanted to talk RIGHT THEN. That's who I am. My counselor was like: Um, most men hardly ever talk about their feelings. Your husband is talking to you and talking to a therapist. And, he's thinking -- really hard -- about these things. Let the man process those thoughts, and get used to a new pattern of talking about deeply, intimate feelings.

Was quite an eye-opener for me. LOL! That MY compulsion to get everything out on the table as quickly as possible isn't the best approach for my FWH.

I try to think about that a lot more these days! And maybe that will help you in thinking about your FWH, too?

Have a great day, Sunny!

Thanks, SweetPea! I am definitely going to have to read over your sitch... we sound a lot alike in the processing dept!
LOL

You bring up some very good points! It sounds like both you and your H have come a long way. He doesn't have to be like his brother!

Thanks, Sunny!

Yeah, I know he is SIMILAR TO his brother, but not an exact copy.

It's like I want to say to SIL: Hey, you have five kids that share your genetics and the environment you raised them in, but they ARE ALL DIFFERENT. Even when some of them make the same mistakes, they don't always make them exactly the same way, nor are the consequences the same either.

I do have great empathy for her. She is seeing every single moment in her life with her WH, my FWH and our in-laws as if they all are pure evil and manipulated at every turn. Her WH had so many affairs, attempted affairs, emotional affairs, etc., gaslighted her at every step, trickle-truthed to death, that I would have trouble getting out of downward spiral, too.

And, of course, my FWH is extremely concerned that her demonizing of him will impact our recovery.

I don't think that's the case, but I do think she won't recover soon -- if ever -- from this and it might come down to us having very limited contact with her. Ugh!

Sunny, sorry for the thread-jack here. Ok, back to you!

Sunny, at surviving affair, you give me a lot of support.

After one week, my H choose to stay, we have a long conversation last night, but he can't answer me if he love her now or not, is this Q stupid?

I understand it's an emotional affair, I feel so unfair, so worse of that, & still don't understand how could he feel that way? especially he think how she respect & appreciate him, it's like he steal the thing belong to me & give to her, support her, then, she show respect & appreciate, & meet his need? shouldn't she appreciate?

Now he'd like do Dr H asked, & ask me out for following weekend,is this too fast, the Q still bother me, how could he do that? I don't want he just tell me he is wrong, I need he realize that feeling he had is built up at..., I don't know

You don't need him to answer that question. It puts him into "protector liar" mode: either he'll lie to you to avoid hurting you, or he'll remain silent to avoid hurting you. He loves her, or at the very least cares about her. And probably will for the rest of his life.

Everybody carries around Love Bank balances from previous romantic entanglements. Even you. Your first kiss, the kid you took to a dance and had a great time with, someone you dated and parted without hating them... they all have residual Love Bank balances. It's just part of life, and the primary reason why rule #1 of avoiding affairs is to never have any contact for the rest of your life with anyone with whom you've ever been romantically involved.



The only way for him to begin to believe that he will be happier with you than he is with her is to fall in love with you again. Contrast Effect will then work in your favor; he'll be overwhelmingly attracted to you, and she will look less attractive in comparison.

So yes. Take him on a date. Meet his intimate emotional needs (Recreational Companionship & Sexual Fulfillment) and invite him to meet yours (Intimate Conversation & Affection). Show him how best to meet your needs. Rebuild your love.

Um, this doesn't ring true to me because affairs are disgusting, horrific relationships. Totally wrong. They may SEEM romantic, but are based on lies, deceit and ugliness.

Yes, the rest of your advice rings true: fill that love bank and fall back in love.

This statement just hit me soooooo wrongly.

I could deposit, that is not problem, but the thing bother me is how could I face him, if his heart also with other.

I really hope he can figue out the feeling he has is based on the support he give to other, this support suppose should give to family, but he didn't, even he took from me, that mean I contribute some. I'm idiot. just hope he realize why she respect & appreciate, because this is the foundation he feel love & feel the need been fill. if without this, is she still appreciate?

I totally understand where you're coming from. I feel the same way! It took Dr. Harley explaining this over the phone for me to "get it".

The trouble is, your spouse isn't you. Your unfaithful spouse didn't feel the enormous pain of betrayal that you felt. If they ended the affair in the "right" way, they have a residual love bank balance. They sent a no-contact letter, ended the affair while still in love with the other person, lived through Withdrawal, and began a new life.

The alternative is to allow the affair to run its course. Allow the other person to have to fulfill all the emotional needs of the unfaithful spouse, and eventually they start making Love Bank withdrawals. If they are typical (95% are), they start making so many withdrawals that eventually the unfaithful spouse wonders what they saw in the other person, and possibly goes from Romantic Love to Like then to Dislike.

And in the meantime while you wait for the Love Bank deposits to go down and withdrawals to occur, the pain and violation of the affair keeps going on, putting your kids through hell and possibly causing a divorce.

So if you end the affair "the right way", you end up with a residual Love Bank balance in the heart of the unfaithful spouse, but with far less devastation than the affair ending with no Love Bank balance left after dying a natural death.

they end up by she left, so you mean I'll live with her forever

Nope. The feelings for the other person fade in time, and if you do the right things in sufficient quantity, you can love and trust each other again within two years.

Sorry, Heart, that I haven't been around to help the last day or so. My dad was put in the hospital with kidney and heart issues and I have been caught up in that. Well, that and a massive amount of school work.

The thing is, the affair was cheap - not a real, long-lasting relationship - and was based on a fantasy, not reality. That will NEVER compare to a true, genuine, long-term marriage in which 2 people commit to loving each other the right way, as spouses should.

SO...while there will always be scars of the affair and OW, it doesn't mean the OW has to affect your life forever.

I told my husband how I was feeling and he stepped up his game to make sure I feel loved; to ensure that I know I am the only one for him. You'll *know* if your husband has the potential of being teh right kind of husband for you when he is willing to commit 100% to your marriage and to making YOU his priority. Committing to the MB program is a great start. It has to be done with no qualms about "well, I'll do this, but not that...."

If your husband is willing to do that, withdrawal from the OW - no mater what he felt for her or why - will end and his feelings for you will start skyrocketing once again!

t/j: I can't let that slide, sweetpea: I wouldn't say I'm an 'expert.' And there's probably lots I'm still not sure of. But I do think that it is very helpful for a FWH to spend some time around the site, learning & digesting how this stuff affects people and how people have dealt with it. MB-based advice hasn't led my wife & me wrong. There are times when our own thinking needs some backup-assistance, and this has been a glood place to get it.

Just know, G.O, that you do a lot of good by sharing your side of things. Your posts help me as a former betrayed wife to understand my former wayward husband - and to be reassured of his ability to change.

I think part of all FBS's psyche is the concern of the old adage about a leopard not changing his spots - once a cheater, always a cheater, etc... You know, the worry of having to look over our shoulders for the rest of our lives. Reading your perspective strengthens what my husband tells me at home about his regret for what he did and that he - WE - are doing everything to ensure our marriage is affair proof in the future.

Wanted to note something interesting.

My H had to work late tonight. I mean REALLY late. It's 12:30 and he still isn't home. Of course, he told me about this a week ago - that he'd be working late because of some things that had to be done that could only be done after hours. (Lots of technical work, installing IT equipment, etc...)

Anyway, H has called me several times, texted me, and emailed me. He even sent pictures of him and the guy he's doing the work with!

I didn't have any qualms with him working tonight. He'll be home shortly, according to his last text. I just think it's really nice that H is taking the time to check in. I don't trigger over him working late because his affair mainly took place over the computer/phone with emails and texts. The physical part was all out of town - not an after work deal. But...I did tell him just days ago that I would need his support and encouragement this week, so I guess he really took it to heart.

TO add, with my dad being in the hospital this week and being concerned about him - H took the time to track down all the needed information from the nurses, talking to my mom, coordinating things with my brother, etc... I felt secure in him "taking charge" and being the person I can lean on!

Anyway, his actions this week have helped SO much! Every time I trigger these coming weeks I'm going to keep reminding myself of all the efforts he has made and keeps making.

Now that's affection!!!!!






AM

It warms my heart to see how far you have come.. What a great guy!

Sorry to hear about your dad.

You know, AM, it IS affection. I didn't think about it that way, but you're right. I have to start thinking "bigger". I have to stop thinking H does things to placate me so I won't get upset rather than thinking he does things because it's natural to share our lives together and he genuinely wants to ensure my happiness. Both are correct, but one way of looking at it is a little more positive than the other.

Thanks, Mel. I think Dad is going to get to go home today. He's feeling much better and they think his condition is manageable...good news!

And yes... H IS a great guy! It's nice to have HIM back!

Doormatnomore:


Hmmm. Intellectually, I understand this argument. But the concept of a wayward allowing himself to continue to "love" what I deem a criminal (affair partner, or at least a criminal in the terms of matrimony), seems wrong. And doesn't Harvey talk about this relationship as not "being real"? Sure "deposits" are made, needs are met, but they are shams when brought into the light of day?

GloveOil: Sorry to label you an expert, but you dispense MB's advice with clarity and that is such a godsend in thei forum for those of us that stumble around. Plus, your notes ARE inspirational and reveal the full spectrum of a man who thought he knew himself, fell and recovered. That is a struggle that MORE men should know about. You inspire me, and I wish my FWH were so secure in his recovery to help others, too. I believe it is self-reinforcing. So, THANK YOU, GLOVE OIL!

And finally Sunny! Yeah!!!!!!!!!! I'm glad you asked for and received the kind of communication you need. I hope to be feeling the same way you do the next time I ask my FWH to step it up!

Happy Friday, everyone!

Thank you for sharing your story, I really hope my H could do that.

Now, both of us don't know what should do, one day he ask me out, & another day, he said he need time to think why this happened, I e-mail the post about managing memory, one of the story is exactly as his, EA suddenly come one afternoon, only WS, then the woman left. I also hope he can find out, should I?

Same as me, hopeful then anger & hopeless

hope your dad getting better.

Heart, what you need to do is make sure he commits 100% to the Marriage Builders recovery program. Him sitting around wondering "why this happened" will do absolutely NO good.

Feelings follow actions. Meaning - you both have to take the right actions and your good feelings will return. If either of you sits around and waits for your feelings to lead, you will be doomed.

Can you all do the MB online program? That's what I would recommend if at all possible. Then you would have someone to coach you through it. If not, you can do the MB at home program with the workbooks, CDs, and books. They are very good - and you aren't left guessing as to "should we do this or not?" questions.

The main thing is that your H commits NOW to absolutely zero contact with OW: not to say hi, not to see how she is, not to ANYTHING. Second, the two of you commit to spending positive, quality time together - alone: 15-20 hours a week. Third, you devote yourselves to learning how to meet each other's needs, stopping negative behaviors in your marriage, and handling disagreements in a constructive way.

You've really got to get on the same team here, Heart, in order for recovery to happen.

We are reading the book, but a coach sounds good idea.
Thank you help me through these days.

You're welcome. I know how hard it can be! The workbook has been a Godsend to my H and I. The coaching offers personal accountability alond with the step by step instructions. It helps guide you through the "doing" part when you don't feel like it.

Writing this morning to hold myself accountable, I guess you would say.

As mentioned previously, this next week is all about the start of anti-versaries. Thankfully, H and I have plans this weekend that should keep us busy. We're going to D20's for parents weekend at college - and celebrating her birthday. I'm dreading the week after that.

Here's the thing: H has been great this week! It's been all about the little things - the small guestures that say, "I want you to be happy," as well as telling me he wants me to be happy. Well, I'm not happy. I'm not unhappy - I'm just not happy - but it doesn't have anything to do with him. I'm STRESSED! My dad has been in the hospital and I've got a ton of classwork on my hands: exams, projects, etc... I've had memories flooding in while trying to fight them off... not sleeping well... just a lot on my plate. I told H how swamped and overwhelmed I feel. Add to that, I don't think I am holding up my part of the bargain these days. Sure, I've been meeting some ENs of H's. Yet, on the other hand - I've let some other things go. Granted, it's only been short-term, but I'm not happy about it. I feel myself slipping in areas that I know I should not let slip. My house is a mess right now. I've gained a little weight due to eating on the run and letting my workouts slip. I haven't been disciplined with keeping the schedule around the house.

I told H I don't feel like I'm doing my job right now and he has been very understanding. He says it's important that school is such a priority right now and it's OK.

I don't want to beat myself up, trying to be Superwoman. This next month is just not looking any better: it's one exam, project, class presentation after another. On one hand I am frustrated thinking one person can't possibly do it all. On the other, I don't want to slip back into Old Sunny who let things go because she didn't want to deal with it.

I'm not sure if I need a 2x4 or a hug!!!!
LOL

Sunny:

I think a hug is in order {{{{{{{{Sunny}}}}}}}}.

Before my mom died of MS, I felt like I was juggling a lot, too. But wasn't dealing with infidelity. Ugh!!!

But here's the thing: You're great at organization (spreadsheets and all!), so figure out the absolutely priority things you can do to meet FWH's ENs. And really try to get as much UA time as you can. If you have to skimp a few days because of pressure/obligations, make sure to give yourself an extra half an hour or more with him on another day.

Me? I always let housework slide when faced with too much to do, and I cling to the old Irma Bombek saying that you should never clean until just before company arrives.

Cheers,
Sweetpea

Sweet Pea - thanks...I needed that.

Man, do I miss Erma Bombeck!!!

Well, I think my body decided my brain had had enough. Wednesday night I had class - huge exam I studied over 20 hours for. I got home, watched a little tv with H and conked out. Yesterday morning I woke up with a huge migraine, complete with nausea! I took meds and slept ALL day. I missed class and everything - couldn't be helped. I felt so terrible because I had SO much to do yesterday and couldn't do any of it.

You know what? I think my body and brain just shut down for a bit. It needed the break so it took it! While I was frustrated, I know that everyone survived without me for the day. lol. I can't let high levels of expectation turn me back into the all or nothing person I was previously. I either did everything or nothing. Today I'm going to march on, accomplish what I need to (feeling much better!) and let go of what I can't.

I LOVE your idea about the spreadsheet, SP! A practical way to make sure the high priority things are done.

THanks for the hug. With the migraine the 2x4 would've reallllly hurt! LOL

{{{{{{{{{{{{Sunny}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

I couldn't help but wonder if your headache is psychosomatic?

I'm sure it was! I don't get migraines a lot anymore and when I do they are usually hormonal. I don't believe this one was. I think this one was totally stress related.

I want to make sure to put a plan in place to deal with the issues rather than letting things build up like that. I keep thinking I don't have time to sit down and map out a schedule for this, that, and the other because I'm so focused on what's due right now... but not taking that time is making me fret, worry, and feel guilty for the things that aren't being taken care of properly.

DOes that make sense?

Example: I feel guilty about not cooking much lately. It's not healthy, eating out gets expensive, and I know my H (as well as my boys) need me to cook. I know it's part of meeting H's ENs.

BUT...I'm also struggling with the fact that I feel my course work right now is a full time job. Oh - it's easy to think that because I'm only in class 12 hours a week while I'm mostly at home that it isn't. HOwever, the amount of studying that goes into my classes plus my extra Honors work takes a lot of time.

SO...is it really fair that I have to be the one that comes up with dinner every night? I don't think so. Now, granted - H has not complained. He's glad to pick something up. (He doesn't cook...AT ALL.) But that has happened too much lately. I feel guilty: H likes it when he can come home to a home-cooked meal.

What's needed is better planning on my part. If I would take the time to sit down, plan out the week's dinner and make things that aren't so time consuming, I would feel better about this. I just haven't taken the time because I've prioritized things that are more pressing. Who wants to sit down and make a dinner schedule when they have 2 projects due and 2 major exams in the upcoming days?! So, I study and focus on school because it "has" to be done while dinner can be whatever. Yet, I then feel guilty about dinner being whatever and don't have a plan for the next day when the boys say, "What's for dinner?"

I could teach them how to cook, lol, but again...that would take time: time I don't have right now.

It's just poor planning on my part.

Sunny:

Too funny! My FWH does cook, but he doesn't like to plan. We are always pushing/pulling each other to be more planned and less planned!

Here are some suggestions that I cling to when getting overwhelmed with dinner plans:

EASY NIGHTS: When planning out your week, make sure to build in a "breakfast for dinner" night (french toast, pancakes, fried eggs, etc.) and a "sandwich" night. Two really simple things to make, and the sandwiches can be grilled, so it's more like a hot meal.

KIDS MAKE DINNER ONCE A WEEK: Your kids are TOTALLY old enough to put together a simple meal for your family one night a week. PIck a night that they don't have a ton of stuff scheduled, and have them make pasta. Who can't boil noodles, heat sauce and heat up garlic bread? Throw in a bagged salad, and boom. You're done. They should be EAGER to help you when you're so stressed out. Oh, and make them do the dishes (it's good practice for when we're not around to do everything for them.)

LOVE YOUR CROCK POT! I can't tell you how many times I've used this piece of equipment to help out. Pot roast is one our our favorites. Another? Simplest recipe in the world: four or five frozen chicken breasts in the crock pot, cover with medium salsa, cook all day. Chicken turns our flavorful and can be used for tacos or tortillas.

COOK DOUBLE on the WEEKENDS: Chili? Make a double batch and freeze one. Lasagna? Double it. Sloppy Joe? Always doubled.

Those are my best suggestions, and honestly, we still don't get it right every day of the week. But like you, I feel better when I'm at least thinking about it.

Sorry to hear about your migraine. Hope your brain is better today!

Cheers,
Sweetpea

Awesome suggestions, SP! Thanks!

The boys are good about loading/unloading dishes usually - if I stay on them! lol BUT...our dishwasher broke last week and we have to get a new one. THat's added a lot of dishes and made everything a lot messier... We can't get a new one quite yet because finances are tight at the moment. Hasn't helped my frustration level at all.

I really do need to teach the boys to cook some. Right now neither of them would even know how to boil noodles. H either, quite frankly! (I know - isn't that terrible?!) All of them would rather just go the fast food route than to have to "cook" anything!

Again - partially my fault because I've let things become this way over the years.

So, see...this is as much a lifestyle change as it is a scheduling issue.

Sunny:

Sit down with your family and watch "Food Inc." You will NEVER eat a fast food hamburger again, and they'll probably appreciate your desire to cook at home much better, too.

Then, make a pact: they get fast food one night a week, and in exchange, they make pasta one night a week. That's two nights you don't cook or do dishes. Easy meals two more nights, and then you're down to three "real" meals per week.

I have one reluctant cook and one enthusiastic cook in our boys. But I made A LOT of headway when I told them we needed their help (because of my mom and my work schedule). I try to "sell" dinner time (prep, eating and cleanup) as "family time." As teens, they sometimes like that, and sometimes it's another "chore" to them like homework. So then I guilt them and say: Hey, this is the only time I'll get to spend with you today, so while I'm at the computer, you guys cook and set the table. I offer help from the sidelines, but really let them figure it out. Sometimes it's "fun," sometimes it turns into a brotherly murder fest. But, hey, at least they're learning to cook simple things!

And if your kids have ever done a science lab at school, they can definitely follow a recipe!

Cheers,
Sweetpea

Yep - you're right! Right now they think of cooking as throwing frozen stuff into the microwave or oven! D20 cooks all her meals at college. S17 is headed out next year - he truly needs to learn to cook! (Well, knowing him he'll do the meal plan instead of cooking...lol)

S15 might as well learn now too!

Play up your harried Mom card, too! It's the LEAST they can do, and when you tell them what a GINORMOUS help is to you, they'll get a feeling of accomplishment.

We'll even accept a dinner of Ramen noodles (with added chunks of boneless skinless chicken) and a salad from unenthusiastic cook (DS17) because he's comfortable with making it and it's hot.

Part of my issue is in using food as a way to show love. I'm somewhat of a gourmet cook and my family is used to really good meals when I cook. In fact, they'd rather me cook than go out to eat. They're spoiled! In fact, their friends come around snooping to see what's for dinner too. LOL.

In the past I didn't mind this. In fact, it was my thing - my way of having the warm, welcoming house everyone liked to come to. My schedule is just WAY different now. I don't have the time to shop for groceries like I used to - much less cook them!

I feel it's a disappointment to H and the boys when they have to settle for less in this dept. However, they are getting more in others. I know that. Ramen noodles wouldn't hurt them! They just are going to have to think differently.

We have that in common: love=food. We go all out on days that we're off together.

So, yeah, a lifestyle change, but one that lets everyone help lift the boat a bit and take some STRESS off of mom. Who needs it!

Wondering: If you had a meal plan and a list, would your FWH do the grocery shopping so that you could cook when time allows?

I suggest that, and then realize that even when I have meals planned out AND a detailed shopping list, my FWH will find just about any other chore to do rather than shop. But he will, if I point out the distribution of chores issue. Ha!

LOL.... true! My H doesn't love to grocery shop, but will do it. I have to give him a very detailed list when he goes. But yes, it's a big help to have him at least do that much. S17 will actually grocery shop too. However, he is a bit less reliable. If he can't find something right away he'll just not get it. Then I end up missing a key ingredient and am aggravated at him! LOL

Dang groceries and dang kids!

Ok, now this time I really do have to sign off. Was supposed to pack this morning and spent all my time chatting on the forum.

Sunday Bloody Sunday. Will be thinking of you, and maybe that U2 song should be added to your iPod (saw your advice for Dad). "How long, how long must we sing this song? How long?" Kind of fitting for a metaphor.

Also: I LOVE cranking Bruno Mars' "Beautiful Girl." I know its sacharine pop, but I love the message. And Christina Aquilara's "Beautiful."

Oh, and Amos Lee's "Sweetpea." We saw him in January and it was an amazing night out. No affair talk. Grand music. Really romantic. It's why I picked my signer.

Good luck with Sunday, Sunny!

Thanks, SweetPea!!! Have a GREEEAAAATTTTTTT trip!!!!!

Great song suggestions!

Shopping is how we get a good deal of our UA time. Intimate conversation, affection, and recreational companionship all bundled in one!

I think we'd get thrown out if we tried to meet the Sexual Fulfillment stuff though

Typical man stuff.I can tell where your mind is when your pushing that cart around the market..Lol.

LOL. I would be hard pressed to think about SF in a grocery store! Probably because grocery store = work to me. I'm sure to most men it's about, "Yummm....food!" WHich isn't too far related from, "Yummmm....sex!"

Yeah, well when we are in that family mood, our baser emotional drives come out, unless we are all business and letting the chief shopper run the show..

"Ok what aisle do you want me to look for what product? Yeah i think our son is over in aisle 3 chasing our daugther. How much do we want to spend on it?"..

Then you don't have time to think about sex..Untill next time.

Yeah. I like to walk behind her in the grocery store because I appreciate the view.

As Dr. Harley has said -- and I agree with him! -- the only guaranteed way to stop a man having fairly constant, idle sexual thoughts is to castrate him. That cures the insanity permanently. With a couple of small takeaways...



Nailed it!

Wait, no, poor turn of phrase given the topic....

Oh, we call a sitter for our shopping forays. Or else bribe our oldest to watch the young ones. It's only an hour or two, and four bucks an hour for two hours is chump change compared the cost of a broken marriage.

yeah that would have made shopping a whole different experience, and because food and meals are where we have the most family time together, it would build all the way across the board.

Taking time to enjoy the things in life that are nessesary to do, instead of them being hurry up and get them done chores, is a great way to bond.

100% agreed. Doing mundane things together is how we get a big part of our UA time. Many forum posters disagree with me on this, but we feel that if we enjoy whatever it is we're doing, we're together and paying attention to one another (talking, holding hands, etc.), and we're not doing it with our kids around, we count it as UA time.

Shopping is a big Recreational Companionship thing for my wife. Not as much for me, but I enjoy being with her so I go, and we find ways to make it fun. Like practicing the Policy of Joint Agreement on everything that goes in the cart These days we're pretty good at that playground...

HA HA!!!! I just read this. Been out of town as I mentioned....

H and I did some talking about the upcoming triggers. Part of it went well, part of it made me want to shake my head and say, "WHAT?!!!!"

UA time - whether mundane activities or special things are all about the atmosphere to me: how much you are connecting, not what activity you're doing.

As for the conversation - I will share more tomorrow probably. Right now I'm BEAT! I'll just say that I was a little aggravated that H made some comments that sound like he still justifies the affair, even though he knows how wrong it was. He still doesn't put the blame of the affair for almost ruining our marriage. And yeah, I know the affair was just a symptom - but I would like for him to agree with me that his infidelity is what almost cost him our marriage! I don't think he sees it that way. I'm not sure we can move forward until he does, quite frankly.

He spent the weekend trying to make me feel good and secure ... was very sweet...and I'm giving his actions credit. Right now though, I don't care for his "words". I put it aside because I did not want to lovebust and I thanked him for his honesty and let him know I did not agree. Now that we are home where it is an appropriate time to discuss it all, we are going to have to do so. It may be time for some professional help here!

Just adding a little...to vent.

This is not easy right now. I am trying not to think about the fact that a year ago I had to sneak out of bed, crawl to H's side, locate his phone in its hiding spot, sneak out of the room, and hide in the laundry room reading emails between H and OW. The descent into hell. The more I try not to think about it, the more I think about it. Trying to overwrite right now isn't happening because I'm thinking about how I would feel better if my H sounded more like some of the other FWS's I've read about. I want to hear how dang thankful he is and what an idiot he was and how OW was nothing and I am everything!!!

I feel like stomping my feet like a 3-yr old because I'm not getting that!

Oh - believe me, I've told my husband I need his support and all of that. WHy can't he just do it the way I want it - need it - instead of HIS way?! Grrrrr

stomp stomp!!!

The problem is with his guilt. He still thinks he was right? Justifying the A? He is still foggy, and needs to come down from his high, of being the man who does not make mistakes.

This might take time, and it is also part of the process, as he sees how much he hurt his beatiful bride, with his ego and selfishness. My hopes are that he recogninizes the pain he caused, as he returns to earth, and it will take some soulsearching.

Hope you guys are following the MB program, and doing the work laid out in it, and that his pride can take a back seat to his marriage. We all can make some very big mistakes, it how we bounce back from them that means the most to others.

I've got that.

It don't help. The words certainly don't match up with the actions, so it really rings empty.

Let current actions speak, rather than any lip service about past actions.


First; since when do we really know what we want?

Other than that; remember, you have to communicate how you want your needs met. Frequent refreshers on the ENQ/LBQ helps that tremendously.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand.... shopping. Oh, shopping.

I H-A-T-E shopping with my wife, but I love shopping for my wife.

I also really enjoy thrift shopping.

The difference?

Well, I can think of one time that I went shopping with her, and it took her 4 hours to put together 4 outfits.

Ugh. Meltdown.

However, shopping for her, I can be engaged - I assemble outfits and she tries them on. I get to; help her dress in a manner which fulfills my (albeit low) need for AS, be engaged and enjoy shopping as UA/RC.

Just food for thought.

Fact: you can't change anybody else's thoughts.
Fact: you should not be discussing the affair anymore.
Fact: He came back with his hat in his hands, very remorseful for his affair, didn't he?

If those three facts are true, it's time for you to work on you a little bit. Go read and digest this article:
http://www.drjoecarver.com/clients/49355/File/Emotional%20Memory.html

The most important thing to retain from this article is that your brain is always pulling memory "files" constantly. Your job is to recognize when it's pulling files that will probably have an emotional payload. That payload -- actual chemical releases in your brain -- is typically delayed by about one to two minutes from the memory file being pulled. When you recognize a memory file being pulled that has a powerful emotional payload, you must learn how to circumvent it by putting something else in its place that relates to it somehow.

In my case, I imagined OM as an 8-bit Nintendo character getting smashed flat by Donkey Kong. It works for me, but probably won't work for you!

If you catalog a few all-purpose funny images to stop the emotional payload of memories, and begin applying them whenever you pull a heavy file, within about two weeks you'll see results. The payload of certain particularly painful memories will be corrupted so that it doesn't deliver a potent dose of "downer" chemicals to your brain, but may be indifferent or even humorous.

Well, in the light of day I can be a little more rational and less emotional. I may have overstated it a bit because I was hurting last night. He doesn't think he was right and doesn't justify his affair in the sense of still believing it was OK or that he was entitled to do so. It's more that he still feels that when he had the affair it was because things were so bad between us that he was sure it was over. So, while wrong, he never would have done it had he thought there was any possibility of us staying together. In other words, he doesn't feel the affair was the breaking point but that the affair was the result of the breaking point.

Conversely, I maintain that while we certainly had not made our marriage a priority, it wasn't like things were so awful (pre-affair) that we were headed for divorce. I was SHOCKED when he dropped the first bomb of "wanting out". He had made no attempts to talk to me about things being off. THerefore, my belief is that him getting involved with OW (albeit at first just conversations via facebook/email) was THE straw. As we know, once a wayward spouse starts investing in another person, the BS might as well be dirt. Nothing I could do at that point would convince him that I was willing to change to meet his needs that he was claiming had not been met at that point. Thus, the AFFAIR is what caused his heart to turn black. It wasn't that it turned black and THEN he had the affair... but that's what he's claiming because I honestly think he still believes that.

See, it's more like how Dr. Harley describes a FWW would be than a FWH... BUT...I will add that there may be something else going on here. During all this our youngest (S15) was having issues and I took him to counseling and to a Child Psychologist. He was tested and is considered borderline Aspergers. He is my H to a tee. If S15 is borderline Aspergers, it's likely that H is as well. If you don't know anything about Aspergers, it's a syndrome that means the person's brain is wired a bit differently, esp. in the emotional/social dept. It has nothing to do with intelligence, but has a lot to do with relationships. People with Aspergers often behave very odd. You see them depicted in movies at times. They lead very normal lives but are usually considered eccentric by people who don't know anything about the syndrome. Now: my H (nor my son) behave that way. Yet, they both have traits that are definitely along those lines. It's hard to explain but I think this rationalization deal of H's may be related.

Again, it isn't that he is totally trying to justify his affair. It's that he doesn't see himself as someone who went out and cheated on a perfectly good marriage because he was a jerk who just wanted to go score with someone else.

I hope too that he can see the pain. He's not much of a soulsearcher type though. Never has been. Asperger types avoid that - and in fact, may not even be able to do it. My question then becomes, does it matter? Should it matter? I'm not sure. Maybe.
He expects me to just try that I am the only one he wants and he is committed....and I can't do it. I can't just trust because he says so. Doesn't work that way - not now!

We have been doing the MB program and doing very well with it. Our UA time did dwindle when my dad was in the hospital and such, but for the most part, we've done a really good job. I will add that H does it wholeheartedly....doesn't begrudge it at all.

I just don't know whether to dwell on this fact that he doesn't fully get what he did.

Well, I THINK I know what I want, but you could be right - even if I got it, it may not be the be all end all like I think it would. My husband does she me actions - and that's why I am in this quandry. I want the words WITH the actions because I want to know the intent behind the actions are as much to make amends as they are "for the future" if that makes sense. If he's doing the actions because it's what will get us to the right kind of future, then that's great! But...in my opinion, it should also be because he wants to make up for the ugliness of the affair. Right?

I don't know: maybe all that matters is that he is fully participating in recovery, to have the future we both want. Maybe that's enough. But, right now it's not enough for me to have closure.

As for shopping - my H likes to shop for/with me as long as it's not too long, lol. He especially likes picking out shoes for me that we both like.

You're right that you can't change anyone else's thoughts! Oh, but we could - that would be great.

We don't discuss the affair anymore. In fact, we didn't discuss it much in the first place. But, how do you get support for triggers and such without conjuring up some facet of, "Yeah...this is because of that?" I mentioned I was triggering and having a rough time because it all happened a year ago. Of course he knows what "it" is.

He came back, remorseful, ready and willing to do the work. I don't know if I would say total hat in hands - and that's where my issue is. Should I have addressed it then? Probably. Did I see it then? No. I knew he was more than willing to meet all my conditions and that's what mattered. I figured the hat in hands would come later - after withdrawal was done with. Then, after the initial period we went into honeymoon phase and nothing seemed to matter! Now that honeymoon phase is over and I'm facing the year anti-versaries, my mind is thinking on things I hadn't thought about this whole time...until now! Maybe that's unusual, but it is what it is, so I have to deal with it. For instance, I never once thought (before this week) about how they must've talked after he flew home from his tryst. THe emails, texts, phone calls....how they probably professed their desire and longing for one another... All the while, I was sitting here, trying to be the best dang wife I could, making his favorite meals, cleaning his clothes, and meeting his needs - unaware! Why did I never think about this before? I don't know. But I am now. And I'm mad - and sad.

That's just an example.

But yes - you're right - it is time to work on me. I just feel like that's all I've done is work on me! I've not expected anything of him in terms of him working on him. I've expected him to work on the marriage - and he has. But...where's his "H working on H" while Sunny's been working on Sunny in addition to work on the marriage?

Don't worry: I'm not lovebusting. I'm trying to work this out here and not allowing DJs and such to creep in. Of course, with O&H I have got to tell him how I'm feeling about all of this.

THanks for that link! I will definitely check it out.

Thanx for the detailed response SD.

What I read in your words, is that you don't think he realizes the pain he inflicted, or the insecure place he put you in, and he just seems to gloss it over, as a mistake.

I am no expert on Aspergers, but I am an expert on mistakes, being very hardheaded at times, and I am sure, that I could be classified as Aspergers, as you have stated it. Socio-relationship issues? Had a lot of them when I was younger, and still picture myself as a loner. But I relate that with my childhood, and my compulsion for a stable family, and my incredible insecuritys that came from my poor Dads treatment of everyone he was around.

So I became an over achiever, and it was very important to me to get my Dads approval, even though as a little child, I did not understand, that Dad could not approve of anything, because he himself had major issues socially. Nothing was ever good enough for Him, and he was a tyrant, but like a brave little soldier, I was determined to help him tame the world, when the truth is, most of His problems came from within His own mind.

His behavior affected everyone, and being the only Son and older than my sister, I could see the problems that affected Her also. My Mom was and is an incredibly strong woman, and my Dad was a stubborn headstrong man. The clash of wills between the two was like an electric fence wired to the A bomb, that I felt it was my job to difuse.

There was no drug abuse or drinking, my father imploded from the inside. It could be trace back I am sure, to a boy who also was sensitive and intellegent, who worked hard instead of learning to read, and was taught to be quiet, rather than express himself. This I knew about my Dad, he was very misunderstood, and also so distant from people, and in that way all alone. He was a sensitive and emotionally charged Man, whos fears got the best of him.

But now that said, what does it have to do with your H? Learned behavior patterns to response. If he has been battling with social problems, for whatever reason/diagnosis modern behavior anyalisis wants to put a label on it, it is likely his affair is such a nightmare part of his life, he just wishes for it to go away. It still may be such a big mistake for him, that he does not have the ability to see, or even be able to see, what he considers the details of the big mistake. He may consider it such a unforgivable sin, that all he can do is put it behind him, and his only protection is that it was a mistake.

This might have been a coping skill he developed when younger, when he just was overwhelmed, by whatever social situations he encountered, that he could not change, and could not understand. He only knew that at the time he strayed, that something was wrong, and that was enough for him to search for relationship, to start again. Because one thing he knows, he needs relationship, we all do.

But men are great at lumping up all the issues, and not paying attention to the details. They work for the future, and learn from the past, but today can slip right by them. That is the great thing about having a wife who is more connected to the now, and can keep them grounded. Woman are wired for relationship with such intensity men just don't get it. A Pastor at my church says,"Woman can have a relationship with a salt shaker". Enviroment is very important to them, and today matters to them just as much as yesterday and tommorow.

Men are about achievment, protection, and territory, and when they are threatened, they will protect them, many times at the cost of peace of mind and a look into what they love the most, the mind and heart of the woman they love. They truly are most of the time, amazed that she loves him, when all he can see is the failure he has been in so many ways.

When God said, "It is not good that Man be alone", he gave Adam someone who could reflect relationship to him. In a way that He would have to see, that it was not all about him. I commend you on your patience and understanding, and that he will see what happened when he ran for that short time ago, in time,as it is revealed, that he needs you and your mind as much as he needs his own.

Keep up with the UA time, and don't let the details of life get you separated from each others hearts. I believe that as he processes what this meant to you, and what damage it caused, he will be even more repentant, as he takes his part of the responsibility of the marraige relationship. It can be the most growth inducing grasp on the inner workings of the mind, the heart, and the spirit, but it takes humility and instuction, to follow a plan to its end. In the end, it is the process we are in love with, as well the person who is part of the process

CP....what can I say.....THANK YOU! That was very beautifully written and put some things in perspective for me.

I am tapping my toes because I want him to see everything as I see it...now! I keep thinking, "it's been a year, darn it all, doesn't he get it?" When, in fact, a year is really not enough time and I know that. He may never actually see things the way I do. My trying to force him to isn't going to do it.

Here's the thing though: as much as he wants to put it behind him - well - I want to put it behind me too! Unfortunately, I have trauma associated with this that won't allow me to. My head and heart still hurt and I keep thinking that if only he were to be like other FWSs that I read about...I could move on. I of all people (having studied much psychology) should know that everyone has different personalities and different ways of doing things. Yet, so much of a wayward's behavior is "classic" and alike that I'm using to lumping everyone in together.

My H had a very different childhood than I did. His family was screwed up and ripe with affairs. Everyone cuts and runs at the first sign of hard work in a relationship. It's no surprise that he did the same. They have no clue how to truly work through conflict. My family wasn't all that great about it either - lots of stuffing going on - but my parents have been married over 50 years so I'm used to sticking things out.

Anyway, I will continue on the journey - being patient - but looking to not stuff things either. We'll get there... I'm sure of it! I can't be positive there's no hills along the way still to climb, but I know we'll be better than ever. I get a little tired of having to be the "strong" one in this - the one that manages the relationship constantly... but he's doing the work so that's all I can ask.

Thanks again, CP! You really hit home with what all you wrote and I appreciate it!

Heres the thing, how much has he studied to understand what his responses are in such situations? This can be a bonding thing for you both, and a revelation also that you can learn together.

I don't mean educate him,as much as I mean share knowledge, knowing both of you have different perspectives, and different reasons for having them.

There is a saying I like to rememeber as much as possible, and it goes like this.

"There are 3 kinds of people in the world,

Those that make things happen
Those who watch things happen
Those who wonder what happened"

If like you said, his family was ripe with conflict avoidance, he might not have had the training to attack the problems, and that is the responsibility of any good parent, to teach thier children to deal with the conflicting emotions in thier life.

Face your fears, and most of the time, you find out they are just ghosts and lies you have built up in your own imagination.

You WILL succeed in your quest because it is what you KNOW is right. When we go on feelings and emotion, we are standing in quicksand, but when we stand on knowledge, we are on bedrock.

The key here might be for H to take the lead, because one thing I know, the man must be at least secure enough that he knows whats going on, and its a shared life after all.

I get the feeling that your H is defensive, and bassically afraid to talk about feelings, or finds them to be very uncomfortable to even admit he has them. Maybe thats true, or maybe its not, but with the problems he had with his own family, and how he survived them, it would not surprise me that he too "stuffs" his emotions down.

But with continued UA time, open and honest communication, and most of all, disspelling the fears that you will not get throught this, and that the plan will work, I beleive you will get the result you are looking for.

God bless SD

DNM... man. I was waiting for the sage advice here.

So... I'll repeat the advice that I got from DNM;

Review other things that might be declining your mood;

Have you got in your 20+ hours of UA time? If not, discuss it with your H and see what you can do to improve it.

Have you been getting enough sleep? If not, discuss it with your H and POJA way to improve it.

Have you been sick? If yes, discuss it with your H and POJA a way to address it.

Have you had any triggers? If yes, discuss it with your H and POJA a way to eliminate the trigger.




My personal quick list goes like this;

Have we been getting enough UA time?

What are my top 3 EN's?

Are they being met in the way that I like?

What are her worst 3 LB's?

Is she avoiding them?

What are her top 3 EN's?

Am I meeting them in the way which she likes?

What are my worst 3 LB's?

What am I doing to avoid them?

If the quick list doesn't fix it, I print out the ENQ and LBQ and we review.


Another thing that helped me was my answer to this question;

"Am I going to let infidelity determine the course of my life?"

My answer; H-E-DOUBLEHOCKEYSTICKS NO!

Don't care which celebrity or politician cheated. Not worried about what's going on down the block. No longer going to look at every song/poem/movie and how it could be about infidelity.

My life. My way.

... but I'm feeling much better now.

Once again, thanks CP! You know, after reading your latest post it struck me that I'm approaching this all wrong. I'm trying to fix the outer layer instead of looking into the inner core.

You make a very good point.. it IS time for H to take the lead. He *likes* to leave the "psychology/relationship" stuff up to me, but you know what? The biggest issue he had with us is that he felt he had no say in what our life was. The crazy part of that is I am not a nag. I am not a control freak. I'm not high maintenance. (And he would agree to all of that.) BUT, I DID take the lead when it came to so many things because he just didn't and someone had to. Well...he feels good about us now because he knows he chose this life - chose us. But if things are going to be different, he MUST take the reins and lead his family. Honestly, I don't think he really wants to. It's a lot of mental energy to lead. Yet I need him to. HE needs him to whether he wants to or not.

He definitely stuffs things - and yes, he is defensive and probably afraid to say how he feels - or he was.

These are the things we need to work on now. I have a feeling if we concentrate on these things I won't be nearly so triggered!

3H THANK YOU!

Very practical advice and right on target, I must say! I feel like I've gotten the 1-2 punch this morning that I needed. CP hit the deep ball and you have provided me with some practicals I needed to be reminded of - so much!

I am printing your list and putting it in my purse. I HAVE been sick - and stressed - and there are other reasons my mindset has been off, along with the anti-versary triggers. (Geez, could other stuff just not have waited being that I have enough on my plate?!)

Not letting infidelity determine your life.... movies/songs, etc... You know what? I truly need to adopt that sentiment! Not need to, MUST, in fact. I have to stop hearing songs and wonder if those songs are what "they" were like...or remind him of her...same with movies. (Watching shows/movies and infidelity popping up has been hard on both of us.) Of course, I keep telling H that we have to stop letting those things have such power. We have to take it back. I'm just not sure how in a practical sense. (We typically say nothing and just let it pass.)

A rather frequent issue has been OW's name. It comes up ALL the time as it's very popular. I can't stand it! We both avoid saying it at all costs. Just last week someone was asking about a friend of S17's and her name was OW's name and neither of us would even say it even though we both knew it...

Anyway, I guess I just keep waiting for these things to not matter. In time, I'm hoping they won't. We obviously still have work to do, however. The practicals help!

So...now I have it in my mind what needs to happen. I just need a plan to make it happen.

I'm going to ask H to read a few articles from here or go back over HNHN maybe and to highlight things he gets from it. I don't want to be bossy and give him a time frame - or should I?

I'm also going to ask for more depth in our UA time: not to hash over what happened, but to talk about deeper things - our dreams, our goals... about sharing things and connecting more.

This might be hard for H: he's not a deep person. I think it needs to happen though.

Of course..only if he enthusiastically agrees!

OK, so...that's not much of a plan but it's all I can think of at the moment. lol

Good, then he can make it an adventure, to explore what the marriage can be, instead of a chore he feels incompetent to even attempt

Inner child thinking here, and baby steps, just how we learn to do anything

What do we have, but the time to learn about each other, and to learn how to love each other, warts and all?

Finding strength in our weakness, for when we are weak, He is strong.

So what makes you think he is not deep?

Maybe you are mistaking his reluctance for serious talk about relationship, for a lack of depth?

Just some questions I'm throwing out there. BTW..

This stuff is like flexing a muscle that hasn't been used much, and the diversity is part of the effort in scheduling the time for your "relationship workouts"

Just a suggestion

Exactly! I don't want it to be a chore. That's not what this is all about, that's for sure. The thing is... H is really happy right now. So, in his world, things are fine - don't need to change. I mean, there are struggles but none of them are about our marriage: finances, kids, job.... He is great with us being just as we are, right now. It's me who is not. SO, in that... I can see why there's not a lot of motivation for him to do anything differently. The taker in me says, "And why not...I'm the one that's done all the changing here!" Yet, I know he wants me to be happy. I believe that. So, I believe he is willing to take this journey to the next level.

I'm constantly reminded of a ladies bible study I did last summer that was truly a gift from Heaven - about going through Egypt. "What God calls you to, He will bring you through."

True.....very true.

The problem isn't that he doesn't see things your way.

The problem is you're not in love with him right now.

Fix the right problem -- fall in love again -- and you'll both be much more likely to see things from the other point of view.

That's ultimately the heart of the MarriageBuilders philosophy. Don't go digging into the past to try to explain the present. All it does is bring your past problems INTO the present.

So when you see me harp on the fundamentals, that's always why. It takes time.

Imagine that you're trying to build an island in a lake. You row bucket after bucket of dirt and soil into the middle of the lake, to the exact same spot every time. You tip out the bucket into the water. You see no reward for your efforts for quite some time. Then one day, you see a little bit of dirt just below the surface. You dump your bucket, and WOW! You can see your island! But a small wave destroys your tiny island. You keep dumping buckets, and eventually it's a little bigger... but then a storm again destroys your efforts. But the foundation is there now, and you quickly make your island appear above the surface again.

Love is like the island. You see no reward for your efforts until your partner reaches the Romantic Love Threshold. And then you're in love. Romantic love can be washed away by negligence or circumstance. When you're in love you feel an overwhelming attraction to your spouse; when you don't, you know you're not in love. The point is to do what needs doing to fall in love over and over again.

If YOU are not in love with HIM right now, that means HE needs to step up his game and meet your needs in the way you want them met, and avoid behavior that makes you miserable. Of the two, it's more important he avoid the Love Busters first.

OK...so, I see your point, Door. I don't want to drag up the past, your right. Of course, I think H still needs to do some things differently (than in the past) - and me too - to get better results in the future. I don't mean about the affair: I mean about dealing with things in the new ways we've been learning.

You're right: I've taken some steps backwards in my feelings for him, esp. this past week or so. I keep focusing on it being because of triggers...but maybe you're right - it's because we aren't focusing on the basics.

So, what do I do? Tell him he needs to step up his game?! Isn't that going to be a LB from me to him? lol

This is ridiculous. I know this stuff. I could tell anyone (who wasn't me) exactly what to do, but right now I feel as much like an airhead as I never wanted to be. (Think about it. lol) I have not had to do this before.... I know the MB ways. I guess H and I did such a good job in the first part of recovery that we were just both crazy about each other, even in the hard days, that application wasn't as necessary - at least not for harder things. We both wanted so much to stop LBs and meet needs.... all of that. We have had no issues with POJA because we were both so eager to please each other. Now, there's been a drop off - at least on my part. I didn't see it as not being in love with him, but obviously I'm not sitting here thinking how wonderful things are right now.

Of course, it's not that he isn't meeting any of my needs - but yes, he needs to do some work. I need to not leave him in the dark about what I need either.

So yeah - the island's been knocked a bit. I just haven't had to face telling my H that I need more from him up til now.

Saying, "Honey, I need your help," isn't a Selfish Demand. Saying, "I don't feel protected," is not a Disrespectful Judgment. It is very, very much in how you phrase what you're saying!

My typical advice here is that YOU need to organize YOUR thoughts before acting on them.

1. Sit down and go through the Love Busters. Use your book, if you have it, to catalog one by one what he is doing that makes you miserable. What has your husband done in each category in the past week? Don't go back further than a few days here, you want this to be CURRENT and PRESENT stuff he's doing that's robbing his balance in your Love Bank. If he's doing well avoiding a category of Love Busters, be sure to note that so you have praise for him in this list, too.

2. Go through your own Emotional Needs worksheet again. What isn't he fulfilling? How could he meet a need better?

Once you've organized your thoughts by writing them down, then a discussion with your husband would help. Don't dump them all on him at once -- he'll feel put-upon if you do -- but introduce that you need his help and would love to work on two or three things. Keep the discussion focused on which two or three things he'd like to do better this week.

And be ready for him to do the same for you! Particularly, if you aren't making love at least twice a week you can probably expect some sort of mention, often in a round-about fashion because he won't want to demand it...

Remember the Guidelines for Successful Negotiation. Keep the discussion Pleasant and Safe.

OK. This I can do! I won't do it tonight though unless the day goes better for him. He already emailed me saying he's having a rough day at work. It wouldn't be fair to put this on him tonight. OF course, tomorrow night I will be in class from 6-9pm. I hate to backburner it but it may just have to happen.

And uh....twice a week...not a problem. We usually double that easily!

Good suggestions. Like most men he's a "fixer" so giving him action he can take rather than just dumping feelings on him is a GREAT way to improve things quickly.

Yep, me too.

Do you guys own a copy of "Love Busters"? It goes over the process for resolving each kind of Love Buster, and I would rather not re-write it . My wife's feelings turned around really quickly once I stopped doing certain things that really annoyed her or made her otherwise unhappy. And all we did was answer the questions at the end of each chapter and did the exercises it prescribed at a rate of about one per week.

DNM is absolutly right, and it seems you have been in a partial recovery.

It is important that you do the work, both of you, enthusiastically, of recovery.

ALL of it, no skimping, no "That doesn't apply to us, we are different" Lay your marriage bare before you, with confidance that this is the right path to intimacy.

This is an opportunity of a lifetime, to have more than a marrige that just holds on, but thrives under fire, and one that remain your best gift that you can give each other and yourselves.

Thanks DNM, for pointing out the practical. I know the struggle you went through, and the success you have had, and you are one of MBs success storys. I guess all they have to do is do it now, and the rest will fall in place. It is good that you are posting this being that you have recovered so much, and the proof is right in front of you now.

Speaking of things for you to print out and read with your husband;

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/mb2.cfm?recno=4&sublink=32&subsublink=212

Well, we did all the LB stuff (book/workbook) early on in recovery. However... a lot of things truly didn't appear to apply to us at the time. We discussed LBs from the past...but both of us feel great about not LBing much since recovery. We've changed so much. We talk so much more - and make thoughtful requests instead of selfish demands. Since him coming home, we've truly not felt either of us have been very guilty of that. We've also been very respectful of each other.

I would say that lately it is more of not meeting needs than LBing.

But yes...now that we are at a more practical place (honeymoon over) it would be good to revisit that questionnaire. It never hurts!

Awesome...thanks!

H is pretty affectionate. He tells me he loves me every day at least once. He's good about holding my hand or putting his arm around me or hugging me when I need it. He'll even give me a nice foot rub after a long day.

Having said that, I have repeatedly mentioned I need him to kiss me more. I even asked if he didn't do it because I have bad breath or am not a good kisser or something, lol. He's just never been much on kissing and it is a HUGE deal for me - and not just in SF.

This article will help. I need him to be affectionate the way I need him to - not just in the ways he feels most comfortable being so. (And vice versa)

We have the book and the MB at home workbook as well. We did the exercises in the workbook - and did read the book - but not so much questions in the book. Perhaps they are a bit different and we can take a look at those.

Don't know if this will make any difference, but be aware that there are older versions of the book.

Im sure that if if is within the last few years, and you bought it new, that it will suffice though..

OK, not sure if this is TMI, but my wife and I established "traditions" to our kissing. This helps me a lot.

* We kiss when one of us is about to leave somewhere.
* We kiss whenever one of us returns home from being elsewhere.
* We kiss whenever we meet in a public place away from home.
* We kiss first thing in the morning as we prepare breakfast for the family together (yep, home-cooked breakfast every morning! sure get tired sometimes though...)
* We kiss last thing before bed.

We kiss other times too, randomly, but those kinds of "traditions" help keep us kissing regularly. And most of them are new since 2009; although we kissed often before then, we had not created habits around it.

This sounds like a DJ to me.

On him taking the lead, a book that helped my DH and I was Love & Respect. A lot of their philosophies work well with Dr Harley's, but that book layed out a lot of the respect and leadership things I needed from my DH. It taught me how to let him lead. And, we had a tragedy this summer - my best friend passed away very suddenly in a house we shared with her (we had an apartment in her attic). I'm a very strong person, always have been. I had a hard time trusting him to be strong enough to lead our family. In that crisis he stepped up and really led us. He took care of me, he took care of everything. It was all I could do for several weeks to get one foot in front of the other. I realized after that I always thought he was weak and unable to lead because I never gave him the chance to lead and do things. It was an eye opening experience for me.

And, like DNM we kiss before we leave, when we see each other out, when we come home. He's very physically affectionate.

CP:
I'll check the version, but I'm pretty sure it's the latest.

DOOR:
FANTASTIC list! I think that would definitely meet my needs, but it has to be real kisses, not just pecks. lol

And homecooked breakfast every morning???? WOW!!!! That's all I can say....Wow. Good for ya'll!

HOPEFUL:
I thought about that statement being a possible DJ. In my head I was thinking more along the lines of him not expressing himself as a deep person not that he doesn't have deep feelings. Also, with his penchant for just wanting to move on (not just from the affair, but in everything that he's dealt with: family stuff, etc...) he doesn't like to delve that deep and think on things. He would agree with me. But, it wasn't nice to say he isn't deep.

VERY sorry to hear about your friend. That is truly tragic! I understand. We've had 7 deaths in our family/close friends in the past 2 years! I DO want my H to lead. I'm sure he is capable. He has to be willing though. I will check out the book... thanks!

The breakfast thing was something we decided on after the affair... we felt like the arguments we'd had for months over my wife's "friend" had scarred the family quite a bit and we wanted to rebuild with the kids, too. So we wake up at 5AM five days a week, and typically wake the kids up by 5:45. This morning it was rice pudding (easy with last night's leftover rice from dinner!) & watermelon!

I heartily recommend it if you can make it work. The way rehearsal, church youth, and social activities go with my kids, we weren't having dinner together every night anymore. Had to do something to get that one meal a day with the whole family together!

I'm with you on this DoNoMo. I'm retired, but I get up every morning with my bride, walk the dog, feed all the pets, and prepare breakfast for us both - today was french toast. She leaves the house at 6:30am each day, and the half hour we grab together gets us both of to a great start. (This also is the reason why I'm usually posting here before 7:00am!)

UA time does not have to be highlighted as "This is UA time!" Gather what time you can with each other. It all counts.

Awesome plan! We instituted Family Night on Tuesday nights several months ago to help everyone heal a bit. We take turns planning. It's a little sad that D20 isn't here to do it with us though, being away at college. I wish we would've done something like this years ago instead of letting everyone's activities take priority over the family!

None of us are early risers...not sure breakfast would work! LOL. Having 2 teenage boys at home..well...they barely get up in time to throw on clothes, grab a protein bar, and head out to school.

BUT...they do like when I make "brinner".

You know....it would drive my love bank sky high if my H learned to cook a meal or two. I don't care if it's breakfast, lunch, dinner, or just dessert and coffee... I am really tired of having to be the sole meal preparer. I can't complain - it isn't something I've asked for, but it is something I WILL ask for now that you guys mention it. My dad cooks. My brother cooks. THere's no reason my H can't cook a little and my sons can't learn to cook! It was more understandable when I was home all the time but now that I am a full-time student doing Honors coursework, I have a full time job too!

When I started, I put limits on my endeavors. Initially, it was no more than four ingredients, or three steps. I still have a bunch of recipes that satisy those restrictions. (My chest is still all puffed up because MB just lauded my recent submission on "What's For Dinner" for its relative complexity!)

But it does NOT take any sublime skill to grill a steak, and roast some potatoes on the same flame. I'd urge you to slip a cooking requirement into your "just compensation" package regarding hubby attending to one meal a week.

You know what, NG??? Guess who has had grilling duty for the past 2 years......ME! Is that totally unfair or what? Yeah...I rue the day we discovered our gas stove top had an adapter to become an indoor grill.....

OK: it doesn't help that my steak is better than hubby's. It really is. lol. (He admits it.) HOWEVER....his is fine! More than fine. But yes, he managed to even get out of grilling.

This isn't all on him though. I let it become that way. If I do say so myself, I am an excellent chef. I am often told I should make it a career, but I prefer it as a hobby. But... It's time to make a plan of action, for sure. Just don't have the time I used to.

Congratulations on your submission. I'll have to check it out!

On a sad note, my husband just called from the office. One of his co-workers, a good friend, lost his baby. Well, his wife did...during labor. Very, very sad.... She had such a rough pregnancy and they've gone through a lot. My H was actually choked up when he called. I told him that one of the things I love about him is that he is compassionate - and he's a good friend.

I will be focusing on meeting his needs tonight... not asking for anything. He deserves it: rough week at work (been a lot of layoffs and turmoil) and now this.

My brooding the last few days feels like pettiness at the moment!

Will be praying for your husband and his friends family

Thanks, CP!

H and I have had a nice couple of nights. We discussed the dinner situation but I didn't bring anything big into it. Still getting my ducks in a row...been busy studying for some huge exams.

This weekend...ugh...I'm still not looking forward to it. Bad anti-versaries. The good part is, after this week the anniversaries get better.

I rue the day we discovered our gas stove top had an adapter to become an indoor grill.....

Okay, then, time to get sneaky! (BTW: This is direct from the Practical Wife's Handbook. Find your copy....)

Several years ago (pre-NG-cooking) my bride bought me FOR FATHER'S DAY, one of those mongo-hugeo Weber gas grills. I mean, the thing is about the size of a Cooper Mini!

There are VERY few men who can resist the simultaneous lures of:
1 - activating a large piece of hardware,
2 - consuming fossil fuel, and
3 - acting the part of a primitive Neanderthal, searing a piece of raw meat!

And as it's covered, we (I) use it all year long. A quick shot of single-malt, a rapid trudge through the snow to turn the meat, and a dash back in for more single-malt -- life does not get any more male-confirming.

LOL, NG!!! LOVE the pic!!!

We were at Home Depot last night and actually looked at grills!!!
(Which is why the dinner converation came up.)

We are SOOOO getting one! And, being in Texas, we don't even have the bad weather to contend with. Plus, H can play with our 2 big polar bears in the backyard while he's grilling (our 2 white, 11 month old German Shepherds) which he loves to do. Have to be careful though: my dog growing up loved to find ways to sneak stuff off the grill if my dad turned his head even for a minute. lol

Looking up the Practical Wife's Handbook now....... it might have to be researched before my Korean war project this weekend....

Had a GREAT conversation with H. We are going to devote a day to going back over our EN's and cover any LB's. Both of us are on the same page that our LB's are very minimal, so that's good. We need to make some changes in EN's though, and ensuring they aren't getting glossed over because of our time commitments in other areas.

We have a very nice weekend plan which will help with the anti-versaries. We are also planning a getaway for the two of us at the end of the month.

SO... thank you to all for helping get me back on track.


I did tell H that I would like for him to take the lead on this. He may be reluctant, but he is doing a good job of saying how he feels and getting out there what he wants from this. He doesn't want it to be a job. He doesn't want to rehash the past. I told him this is MORE THAN FINE. I don't want it to be either. I need to feel secure that we are staying the course, however.

Anyway... I think it went well.

Yay!

Now are you gonna be comfortable talking to him about how you feel? About how you don't feel that he understands?

I would broach those subjects with a time limit, and a plan of time during the week when you can tell him. I know, I know, when the time comes and you up at bat, they will probablt fly right out of your head. This is why a journal or note book should handy, for those times when you are alone, to write down these thoughts, so they can be discussed at the right time.

Then when there is resalution<sp>, whatever it takes, you can know when you are around him you are on the same page, think the same thoughts about it, and triggers will not bother you as much. As a matter of fact triggers that hurt each other, will be avoided, because of this awareness, triggers will be a reminder of past pain conquered, instead of current pain not dealt with.

You can allways spend time disscussing what the meanings of the specific ENs mean to you, individually, as different people. This is something that is lost many times when the relationship starts getting bogged down with the details of life. Carreers, kids, and time spent not talking about the dreams in life, and what you are looking for, can be swept aside for those emergency needs of the kids, the job, the pampers, the milk, the dinner, SF, go to sleep, wake up and do it again.

You need the dreams to keep the romance alive IMO, and like a child sharing thier heart with thier friend, sharing your dreams is what it is all about. Entusiastic Agreement really touchs on this in the Policy Of Joint Agreement. You may agree, but not really understand all the details of why certain things are desired. It is important that when something is sold to the other party, that they share thier feelings and deep convictions also, thier dreams and ideals, thier soul. Then they can set the boundaries that they will accept also, and how much they will allow.

Of course this should be reality based, and that also is part of the challange and conflict in communication, but that is good, that you have conflict, its what makes us grow, as long as you are constant in your desire for mutual care, and patientce, things will work out in the end to the best decision.

Many people understand what the book says about POJA, O&H, Enthusiastic agreement as good ideas. But how do you get to Carnagie Hall? Practice..

Because each of us is so individual, and every relationship is also so individual and different, every marriage is also, and it will become even more special and individual as you practice all the principles, that Dr H has found, are the ones that the successful marriges practice also.

No two people are alike, and no two marriges are alike, but we have in our power to get to know each other more deeply than any other person on earth, and care for each other, respect each other, with all the warts and blemishes also, that make us fallible human beings.

Who else but God does this? I am sure you will work this out, you sound good, and remember you get out of it what you put into it, "You reap what you sow"

I did tell him somewhat how I felt but at the same time, was careful to talk more about actions we can commit to rather than me just dumping feelings. But....yes....I still have other feelings to address and need to do so. Most of it won't be hard. There are a few things though I think will bein a sense - because part of me has not wanted to make myself totally vunerable. I believe I am ready to do that now. Setting a time limit is a good idea, CP. I've journaled a lot so it shouldn't be a problem!

As for discussing goals/dreams...it's funny you should mention that. H and I went to dinner and a movie last night and I brought up that very thing! When we went on our marriage retreat weekend last year we had to do some of that for homework. I thought it was a great exercise! I can't remember if it was from FILSIL or another book that we used that weekend but there was a whole bunch of questions we had to answer for each other. It included not only goals but favorite memories, most embarrassing moments... all stuff designed to make you really get to know your inner partner. Sounds like a Harley concept so I wouldn't doubt it if it was part of his works. Some stuff is jumbled in my mind from last year so I can't remember for sure.

You're absolutely right, you DO get out what you put in and H and I need more practice!

I'm glad we had a good night out though. We needed it.

grats on that BTW, Smell the roses I agree

Sunny:

You've been busy while I was on vacation. I'm so glad to see that you and your FWH have made plans to help with the antiversaries. AND to deal with your domestic load while you're in school.

Great job!

Cheers,
Sweetpea

Thanks, SweetPea!

All in all we had a really good weekend, and I'm glad it is over! It's odd to think that a year ago the OW called me and tried threatening me, etc... When I look back I try to take the positive from it: I found out what I'm made of. I read a saying once that says, "You don't know how strong you are until you have to be..." It's true. I found out I am tough as nails! Of course, I had help!

H is taking this Friday off so we can have the whole day together without kids to reassess our needs, etc... His idea.

Also, my feelings right now are VERY positive and I am back in the "in love zone" once again. The thing is, it's not just him doing things for me, but watching him in action this past week in his dealings with others. I was reminded of why I fell for him in the first place. He's caring, compassionate, and takes the time to appreciate others. I watched him go introduce himself to a 90+ year old man and his son at a restaurant because he knew by the hat the old man was wearing that he served in WWII. Quite a story. He talked with them both for 5-10 minutes and paid for their meal - and introduced me and our youngest son afterwards.

I also watched him stop and get a dog that was running around lost, take him to our house, feed/water him, and go look for signs to see if anyone was looking for him.

H also helped out someone at work that needed it.

I watched H smile and occupy a small child a bit who was getting fussy.... and get a little watery eyed in a part of a movie that was emotional....

Oh, he's also very manly too - I should add that! LOL

BUT....his kindness and thoughtfulness towards others really boost my respect for him.

Sounds like a winner SD :-)

Sunny!

I got a little teary-eyed reading your list about why you were in love zone again. Sounds like a very special guy you have. Keep hold of those thoughts!!

And come here to [censored] and get a boost!!!

Cheers,
SP

Sunny,

That's what you already typed before that... :-)

You make a very good point, CV! I guess I felt I needed to add that after saying he was watery-eyed at the movies. lol

And yes, Constant - he's a winner. When I keep these actions of his in the forefront instead of the bad stuff from the affair, it is not hard to stay in the love zone.

SweetPea also makes a good point because I know there are times when I don't do that and I am reminded instead of the past instead of the wonderful man I can see in front of me.

I look back and the man that my husband became when involved with OW was NOT this man. He wasn't kind. He thought only of himself - not other people. He was not connected to his children even, much less trying to connect with strangers. Well, he connected with OW... and he was very giving towards her - but no one else. (And yes, that still makes me mad!)

In fact, I'm sure he's giving nature is why he wanted to understand and sympathize with OW in the first place. She sold him a bill of goods that her husband was abusive - just as he sold her a bill of goods that I was - well, whatever he made me out to be. I'm not even sure - I just know it was negative.

Part of me is still afraid that I will see Bad Mr. Sunny again - and I don't want to ever lay eyes on him! THIS Mr. Sunny, however, is why I fought.

Sunny:

I like how you turned your statement of fear around: The new Mr. Sunny is why you fought.

I ... LOVE ... THAT.

Really taps into my issue of staying married to someone who cheated. I mean, how could I stay, right?

But FWH is worth it. He's caring, handsome, intelligent, funny, adventurous, hard-working, sincere, a great dad, an awesome cook and a wonderful partner.

And now, post affair, he's also less selfish, more in control and in-tune with his emotions, totally open and, well, still handsome!

So that's the guy I fought for (though I sure wish he'd had this last burst of personal growth without nearly killing me).

But if this is the man I get for the rest of my life? I'll take it!

Agree?

Exactly, SweetPea!

This is what we must take and carry on with us - that our husbands had some GREAT characteristics, pre-affair, that motivated us to fight for our marriages. The changes that have come because of the crisis makes them even better men: men willing to face what they did and do better because of it.

I respect my husband for coming back and working for his family. I know in ways it would've been easier to run and just move on.

This morning I was upset. We were supposed to have today together to go over our ENs and such. (I mentioned it above.) Well, H took Wednesday off because of some things that had to be done that day and then could not get today off.

Anyway, H asked me why I was upset. THe conversation that ensued would NEVER have happened pre-affair. I'm still upset that our day is being put off, but he knows why and what is important to me. I just don't want to see lip service given without follow through!

We will be rescheduling!

In the meantime, I am just trying to be thankful that we had the tools this morning to have a reasonable discussion of things. Before, I would have pouted - kept it inside - he would've sensed something wrong and just rolled his eyes (inwardly, of course) and went about his business.

Change is good!

But I agree...would've been nice if this growth could've happened without scarring me for life!

Now...about that morning discussion:

It is clear to me that H seems to forget that there ARE scars that come from his infidelity. The fact that he did what he did skews my perspective in ways he cannot know - because I have never even given off a HINT of unfaithfulness in 20 years! I don't even men just with an affair (of any kind) but faithful in the sense that I've never said anything bad about him - always been positive about his traits, esp. in front of the kids - never made the mistake of calling him names or being disrespectful in conversations...none of that. I watched my mother do it to my father and I swore I would never be that way!

Anyway, H made a statement that alluded to the fact that he handles things differently than I do - and that I needed to trust - and that he is very happy so I should be happy. He also implied that I got what I want - him back - so basically, I should just be fine with everything.

My first reaction to all this was, "Well, I AM glad he's happy - but what about MY happiness?" Thoughts also entered my mind of, "Well - it's easy for HIM to trust ME....he's not living with PTSD!" And of course...."Yeah, I'm happy I got him back but uh....don't think you did me a huge favor here. Where's your thankfulness for being taken back?!"

SO....I still have plenty of work to do. I don't think he meant any of it to sound bad or that he is only concerned with himself... but it is NOT acceptable to me to that I should just be thankful and happy he's home without any other "work" lol.

SDIT, you may have committed the miscalculation I did as recovery started, and it relates to the imposition of elements of "just compensation".

My FWW immediately realized that she had committed grave transgessions in her affection for OM. The long-time dynamic in our marriage, however, with me being the stoic, imperturbable one, disguised from her (and actually, from me as well) the extent of the damage she had caused. This came to a head about seven months after d-night when I, for the first time, told her that it might not be possible for me to remain with her. That "crisis" is what spurred her to REALLY begin the work of healing me.

Consider telling FWH where you are still hurting. Work together to devise things he MUST (not "can", or "might") do to repair your damaged "self". These are the things that consitute JCs. Without them, you will continue to resent his "free ride", as your post above reveals.

(And did you get that gas-grill yet? His cooking would be an example of what he can do NOW that he was not doing BEFORE.)

Wow it must be in the water. 3 strong women ready to stand up for themselves and make the man in our lives pull their own weight with in a week of each other.

Boy did you hit it square on the head, NG: that's exactly what I keep looking for - just compensation for the hurt he caused. I want his remorse to be as high as the pain I have endured. Looking back I don't think I expected it early on because I had just read SAA where Dr. Harley speaks of how you need to focus on the present and future. He talks of "Sue" never being really sorry. He even states that he doesn't recommend the FWS apologize unless they really mean it. Now, H did apologize, but I've never heard what I read other FWS's saying - things like, "I am so thankful you stuck by me," or expressing feelings of deep guilt. Dr. Harley goes on to say that instead of focusing on the remorse or resentment you feel as the BS, you take care of the 4 steps towards recovery. I reminded myself this by reviewing SAA at 4am when I couldn't sleep this morning.

When H and I were first in recovery, we were both so careful about not committing LBs and treating each other well. I was VERY focused on present & future. So was Mr. Sunny. Now, I think I'm looking back and am dissatisfied. As I explained it to H yesterday, we are doing well, but we have NOT arrived. (Not that I think you ever totally arrive. Gotta keep working.) I am still looking for just compensation. I also have feelings of, "if he's not REALLLLY remorseful, he may still be justifying what he did - and if he still justifies - can we truly recover?"

I did share my needs as I was reminded to do upthread. H has done better. We haven't gotten the grill yet but he's helped out a lot more recently with meals. (We looked at grills but we ended up having to buy a new dishwasher instead, grrr.) The whole reason he was going to take off yesterday was so we could review where we need to do better and that didn't happen.

It is hard to balance telling him where I still have pain without bringing up the affair or the past, which I'm not supposed to do. Yesterday I told him I still had feelings that haunted me...and it was hard. I'm not sure what he can do to make me feel better except what he won't do - which is show this deep remorse that I would like. It's very possible that it is similar to what you said: I think he still feels I was so bad that while still in the wrong, his resentment of me had built up to the point where he was going to be gone, affair or no affair. (I call BS, of course.)

SO...what did I do that was so wrong? I've admitted my faults: I struggled with depression for several years pre-affair. I let myself go some and I focused a lot more on the kids than H. I was not wise with money which is a huge complaint of his - although, I never hid anything from him. I had become an isolated person who wasn't very interesting, all things considered. I didn't work outside the home - had been a stay at home mom for years - but I didn't manage my time at home well either. Because I suffered with depression, everything seemed like a huge chore to me and it showed in my demeanor.

Now: I "fixed" all of that. I got help. I went back to school to better myself and to have some personal goals. I started eating better - doing my hair, makeup, etc... every day again. Now I feel great about me - as does H!

Here's where the rubber meets the road: I paid MIGHTILY for my sins, did I not? Not just by H having the affair either... I also got to hear about how awful I was: how I had no value, how H couldn't stand me - how he gave me a "C" as a mother - by being yelled at - and spied on. All of the nastiness I endured from H while he was involved with SkankHO....no one deserves that unless they're a child abuser or something. So, when H commented back to my telling him I still had pain with "he chooses not to dwell on the past because he doesn't want to feel that bitterness he felt towards me back then," I replied, "I already heard all about that and paid the price for those negative feelings towards me." (He did not reply.)

SO...heck yes I still feel I do not have just compensation. I don't negate that I played a role in our marriage not being good pre-affair. Why the heck does he think I was willing to change and give him a 2nd chance after all he did? Of course, he had never verbalized any unhappiness with me, but that does not absolve my wrong-doings.

I don't expect H to suffer as I did in order to get even - but I think I would just like it acknowledged that I suffered to the extent I did. He has no idea.

WOW..this got long! Bottom line: I don't think I am ever going to get that acknowledgement. I just have to trust Dr. Harley's words that if we continue working the program as it is meant to be done that my resentment will fade and I won't feel the need for such acknowledgement.

I know it sounds like I am not happy - but that's not true. I keep holding on to the positives - and looking to the examples I stated just days ago about my blossoming respect (once again) for my husband. But yes, it is hard feeling that in some way H must think we are even in our badness. I have to respect his honesty. Better he is open with his feelings than give lip service just to make me feel better.

You too, LD??? I'll have to check out your thread!

Hmmm....just had a thought: after writing all I did about wanting just compensation, perhaps H thinks he HAS paid his dues. To him, I bet my exposing the affair was "payment" enough. He had to deal with what his children thought of him - and my brother and sister-in-law (whom he respects). He had to deal with angry SkankHO and being worried about her (supposedly) abusive husband coming after him. He had to face friends that he knows were aware of the situation.

He never complained about any of this - well, not after deciding to reconcile anyway. He did face his comeuppance gracefully in that department.

Maybe he thinks dealing with all of that was suffering enough for his crimes.

Just some afterthoughts.

I want his remorse to be as high as the pain I have endured....I've never heard what I read other FWS's saying - things like, "I am so thankful you stuck by me," or expressing feelings of deep guilt.

How does that old saying go? "Be careful of what you wish for - because you just may receive it!"

I have often told HFD that his wife's intense introspection reminded me of mine's. One day (Spring 2010) I came home after doing a game to find her sitting in the living room crying. I asked her what was going on, and she said, "When I walked into the house today, it struck me that if you hadn't stuck by me, what I had today would have been my lot forever - empty home, empty heart, empty life!"

This was about ten months after d-night, and kicked off roughly a two-month struggle to restore her self-acceptance(?) to reasonable levels.

I'm not bright - or experienced - enough to state that FWHs are as prone to this self-flagellation as FWWs, but I urge you to take care in wishing that his remorse is as high as your pain. Remorse at high levels can quickly become self-loathing, (as "I did a awful thing" adds "...so I must be an awful person!"), and self-loathing is tricky to correct. And from the view of a recent passenger through that area, seeing a lately wayward spouse suffer, just to know he's suffering, is not as much fun as it first appears. "Equality" might not be advisable, but "proportionate" is certainly fair.

Let's take this carefully and cogently. (PB: Engineering logic alert!) What insult to your person was most egregious? More specifically, what "hit" you, and where?

You mention that he said you were careless with money. Are you now POJA'ing such things? Does he acknowledge your improvement in that area? Have him DOCUMENT his satisfaction that things are better and his appreciation of your fiduciary performance.

This does not have to be extensive. A two-minute e-mail saying that things are improving financially, with your efforts, written in his words will suffice. And if the SOB can't find two minutes in a week of 168 hours, DIVORCE HIM! (I might be just kidding.)

When you're satisfied with this compensation, start working on another.

It's important for him (and you) to do this NOW, while the crisis is still fresh. If you let it drag on, your resentment for these unpaid debts will inhibit your enlistment into a better union.

(And btw: There's a rookie chef recipe for your FWH in "What's For Dinner".)

This makes a lot of sense, NG.

We have emailed quite a bit about finances, actually, and he HAS acknowledged improvement by me in this area as well as others. So, no need for divorce. LOL We POJA financial matters all the time now. He routinely says how proud he is of me for the changes I have made. Naturally, I appreciate it, but the cynic in me says, "Oh...so I deserve fidelity because you're pleased with me NOW. You weren't perfect either, bucko!" LOL

But...you're right. I don't wish to see H suffer. I don't wish self-loathing on him. I wouldn't want to live with that person.

AND... I must add - I was very convicted this morning in church. Darn preacher had to go preach a sermon about letting go of the past and not hanging on to hurts - deservedly so or not - because it will show in your actions. Who you are and what you carry on the inside DOES affect how you come across on the outside no matter how hard you try and hide it. He was right. There were some things he said that I'm sure were good for H to hear as well, but I truly tried to focus on what it meant for me.

Do I hang onto the hurt because it gives me a sense of "You owe me!" ??? Do I want it for leverage to make sure he treats me right and is willing to meet my needs? I don't know. Maybe. If that's the case, I need to stop and stop yesterday! I need to remember I deserve that just for being me and not because someone needs to make something up to me.

I can appreciate the engineer logic since Mr. Sunny is an engineer, btw!

Funny you mention the recipe. I just reminded H that he said HE would cook dinner on weekends!

Just a reminder, Sunny; assuming his level of remorse is a DJ. Assuming his feelings based on how you feel you would behave, or how he should behave, is a DJ.

As you can see, a Disrespectful Judgement has the ability to withdraw from BOTH of your accounts. From yours while holding it. From his if you state it.

Review UA time, and both of your ENs and LBs.

Well, I didn't assume it based on how I would behave but on past experience of hubby's behavior and attitudes from the past. But, regardless...it is a DJ for me to assume it at all.

That's the hard part. As a former BS, you have to deal with these negative emotions and residual pain. So, your love bank in regards to your spouse fluctuates when you are triggered. Yet, you have to be careful not to commit a LB or withdraw from your spouse's love bank. It feels unfair, but I know that is how it has to be.

See...when we Plan A during our spouse's waywardness, we are showing remorse: showing we know we need to be a better spouse than we were previously. We don't really fill up our WS's love bank because it can't be filled while they are in the affair. However, we are at least neutralizing some of the negativity. Then, upon recovery...we still have the greater mental work for the most part. We have to meet needs, etc.. all while dealing with the HUGE withdrawal from our love banks by the spouse's affair: the memories, the triggers, the pain. We can't just forget the past but we have to let go of it or we will not be able to adequately meet our FWS's needs and stay away from LBs. It's hard sometimes! Despite our spouse's best efforts, they can't make us forget. But, we knew this going in - that we were choosing a road that would be tough but eventually worth it.

I guess what I'm getting to is this: I can sit here and mentally say that I agree, it's a DJ to feel my husband is not remorseful enough for my liking. However, I'm not sure how to stop feeling that way. I don't express it to him, but as I was reminded yesterday morning, our actions always indicate what's going on inside, even if we try to disguise it. Therefore, I MUST find a way to rid myself of this feeling - of this DJ. I just have to do it in a way that does not withdraw from H's love bank. It's easy to think, "So what if it does? It's his fault - he committed this crime against me!" But, we all know that is not in the best interest of my marriage.

It all comes down to the new way of doing things. The new way of speaking with my husband...the new way of conflict resolution. We definitely have our UA hours in and are going away this weekend. We've reviewed LBs and didn't find problems in that dept. We still need to review ENs though. Maybe that will hold the key!

Sunny! Wow, you've been busy. A lot to think about, for sure. Some thoughts


I think about this, too. My FWH met all my demands (an IC, MC and MB's principals), and not only has he met them, he has exceeded my expectations in terms of figuring out his crud and safeguarding our marriage. So, in a way, I think you're right that they both probably feel like they've done enough to right our ships, and that their commitment to us continues with meeting ENs, maintaining EPs and giving us UA.



Yup, the bumpier road for sure. But as with all things that challenge us thoroughly, we will be stronger in the end. My IC recommended a book to me by a therapist who is an expert on intimacy. Part of his theory of why marriage is so hard is that it is DESIGNED to frustrate and challenge humans as a way to continue our evolutionary growth. That's right: The harder we have to work at something, the better off our species. Even though it's just a theory, I take a lot of comfort in that thought: I am stronger because I have struggled.

And like you wrote on my thread, Sunny, we are on a similar time frame, and I fully expect our heads -- and hearts -- to be in much better places a year from now.

Especially if our wonderful guys continue to meet the UA, ENs and EPs they've promised.

Hugs,
SP

Well now that's an interesting concept. Geez...can't someone else be challenged for awhile to better our species? I'm darn tired! lol

H and I have plans to go out tonight and then this weekend we are going away, so I am definitely looking forward to that! I think that will help with my struggling.

NGB and I have found that as time goes by, and you get better at meeting each others needs, that the most important EN's will change. So some sort of regular review is useful.

All in all, this reflection you posted is well thought out, Sunny.

So, how do you let go of a DJ?

How do you let go of any other bad thought that threatens to ruin your day? You do something, you find something else to think about.

When they threaten your day, do something nice for your H. Put your energy there.

SP,


To add to that, overcoming challenges as a couple actually builds both love and intimacy. We project the feelings of accomplishment onto our partner, not just ourselves or the task at hand.

Just my own rumination, but I would think that's why a properly recovered marriage will THRIVE after experiencing infidelity, because a monstrous task and challenge has been overcome.

I think you're right, 3H - redirection is the best way to get over/through something.

I keep looking for the root cause of some of this evaluation on my part. Is it fear that this will happen again? Fear of returning to the old marriage? Is it insecurity in myself - the self worth slipping because my ego has taken a huge hit by my H having an affair? Does that have something to do with my scrutinizing my husband's level of remorse?

I'm not really sure...maybe it's a mix. I spent a lot of time building myself up after Dday and taking on the "you don't deserve me" persona. It has taken me awhile to allow myself to be vunerable once again to H and caring about what he thinks of me again - all that. I think a part of me doesn't like that vunerability - it makes me feel weak and not in control. It's hard to let someone back in so fully after they've betrayed you so severely.

I DO believe what you said about, HHH, about a properly recovered marriage thriving. It's why I am fighting to make sure we do this right - I do this right. I could easily allow myself to go into, "well...I'm in this, but I'm not giving you my heart 100%...just in case!"

We all know the rules: whoever cares least in the relationship has the most power, right? Part of me wants to be immature and sieze that power - to care least. I don't like her very much sometimes, lol, but I think maybe that's just Scared Sunny talking.

Sunny:

For me, i think it's this:


I have worked REALLY hard at regaining self-worth and confidence. I keep saying that FWH can't crush me into dust again if he cheats, because I'm too strong now.

But I think that deep inside, I fear being hurt that badly again. (Even though I believe I can't be crushed like that again because the scars are too deep).

Hmmmmm.

Agreed! If properly recovered. That's so key, isn't it?

It would be nice if our husbands were half as introspective as we are, wouldn't it?!!!
LOL

I need some help this morning. I find myself feeling angry about this whole ordeal. I'm tired of the stupid memories and triggers. I'm handling them well, not LBing at all, but I just hate that I have to manage anything in the first place.

It is not helped by the fact that H was supposed to be doing the workbook stuff and I gave him HNHN to read over. They are still sitting in the same place he left them - untouched. I reminded him yesterday briefly...and yet, they still sit there.

H has almost an hour every morning to and afternoon from work in which to read. (He takes a park n ride bus into the city.) He also had 3 hours while I was in class last night. He played XBox that whole time. Now, playing Xbox does give him a shared RN with our sons, but it's also his escape.

I don't have an issue with him playing XBox but I do have a problem with him playing all night the past 2 nights while any work on our marriage sits idly by.

I thought he was going to take the lead. He has not done so.

I want to express my hurt about this matter in a non-LBing way. What is the best way to do this?

I'm tired of taking the lead in our recovery!

Good morning, Sunny:

Sorry it's not such a great morning.

I recall Pep or Marital advising me a few months ago that I could bring up topics, like yours above, if I did it in a caring and loving way. Basically, telling your H that your disappointed that he's not pulling his fair share in the recovery, and that it would help fill your love bank if he showed more effort.

Get angry and annoyed here; approach your H with calm explanations about how you feel.

And personally, I really think this is about both our H's feeling like everything is OK. But what I keep impressing upon my H, is that, sure, everything is OK now, but it won't be if we don't work at it every day.

Hope that helps,
SP

I agree, X-box is an escape, and tell him you guys still have real dragons to slay, and your the Damsel in distress.

Thanks guys! I am drafting an email that I hope to send. I'll review it after I shower and make sure it is loving as well as getting my thoughts out there.

Sunny:

Good for you! Yes, make your thoughts known in a non DJ way.

But I would wait to discuss this topic in person. It's a pretty big issue, and so much can be misconstrued in text.

Cheers,
SP

Well...uh....I thought the email was really good so I went ahead and sent it.

I promise it was positive.

A grizzled Marine sergeant was informed by his CO that Private Miller's mother had died, the sergeant was going to have to inform Miller of the sad news, and was to do so properly and with tact. At morning inspection, then, the sergeant barked out, "All right, men, those of you with living mothers take one step forward. Miller! Hold it right there!"

I'm trying to make the point that YOUR opinion as to whether sending an e-mail would "properly and with tact" inform FWH of your assessment of his performance in this area is as unimportant as the sergeant's belief of the rightness of his treatment of Pvt. Miller. Moreover, it reveals your discomfort in dealing appropriately with a topic of this kind as the sergeant's with his issue.

It may be that FWH will react well to the method. If so, I'll bet he's is the tiniest of minorities in this arena. RH, and O&H, are prescribed exactly for the difficult issues, not the easy ones.

I see your point, NG. I must add, however, that H and I have discussed this in the past - the best ways to communicate for us. For his part, he actually prefers my emails (or letters even). I may not always show it here, but I am actually a gifted writer. I know how to put my feelings on paper much more effectively than when speaking. I have negotiated family squabbles between extended family this way, in fact.

I am much more effective in being reasonable and objective in writing. For someone like my H who is very literal, I can choose words more carefully and thought out in writing. Thus, my letter to him was more positive and solution oriented than had I waited to simmer all day then talk with him tonight.

The response I got from my husband was very positive! We WILL discuss it more later, in person.

I don't have a problem talking about my feelings, but I do have a harder time not committing LBs in conversations in person than in writing. I am working on control while speaking. Right now it seems to be good for me to broach something in letter form first, then follow up later with actual discussion.

But yes - of course honesty and openness is much easier for less difficult issues!

I am majoring in Communication so it is important to me to convey what I actually wish to convey effectively!

Sunny:

Glad to see your H took the email in the spirit it was offered.

Will be interested to read how the face-to-face went.

SP

The face to face went equally as well. H started reading right after dinner. At one point S15 and I asked him to watch Community with us and he said no...he wanted to meet my needs and was going to continue reading.

Focus on actions, right? Of course, the main reason to read this stuff is to bring about further actions. It's all about change. This means changes for me too, I'm sure. I'm good with that as long as I know we are both in this together.

The way I see it, now is an especially vunerable time. We feel good about each other. I struggle with triggers and memories, but overall - things are going well. However, this is where you can be lulled into lack of motivation to keep progressing. You stop to rest and the next thing you know, slip back into old patterns.

I'm sure it is frustrating to H that I keep pushing for more...but so be it. It's not for me, it's for us: for our future. To be frank, he should be pushing for more too - esp. since he was the one so unhappy previously that he went outside the marriage.

Just to add... we are going away for the weekend when H gets off tonight.

I have to be frank: I am stressed about it even though I'm looking forward to it. I have a huge presentation next week along with all my regular classwork. I am SWAMPED. I want to focus on us having a good time, but I need time to work on my stuff as well. I don't want to be concerned about all my school stuff.

We couldn't change weekends because we're going out of town for a specific concert.

Sunny:

Excellent work on FWH's part. Glad he's seeing the light.

RE: stress of going away. Can you ask for a few hours each day of uninterrupted study time while being away? FWH could read his MB book, and you could study, then you can talk about it all when you're done with your study breaks?

Have A GREAT TIME!!!

And remember that your marriage and it's recovery is MORE IMPORTANT than any grade or presentation.

Point well taken!

Got home a few hours ago from our weekend away. It was nice. The concert we went to was awesome and we had some good recreational time together this morning before heading back.

On the way there we listened to the HNHN CD from the MB at home program. On the way back I had to study. I was NOT looking forward to coming home, lol. I swear, I wish H and I just had a whole week where we could go away.... so hard to do with his job though, and my classes. Even if we had the time off it is very rough financially. Since H does contract work he doesn't get paid when he takes off.

I will say that part of me feels disappointed. Our weekend was very low key and there is nothing wrong with that. It's just that in my mind, I want all this "high romance". You know.... the fancy dress, candles...wine...flowers....all that. We did none of that. I'm not going to blame it on H because it isn't like I told him that's what I wanted. Quite frankly, as swamped as I am I sure didn't have time to prepare for it before leaving Friday. But...I still want it even though I had no time or energy to prepare for it. I need to just appreciate what we had for what it was instead of always wistfully thinking about what could be.

BUT...I still DO want that. Every woman likes to be swept off her feet occasionally!

Sunny:

Maybe it's time to exchange descriptions of the most awesomely romantic night for each other. Then, give yourself six months to pull it off for each other? That way it's still somewhat of a surprise, but your getting what you want?

Glad you had a good weekend. Sorry you have to study! But it's for a good cause: your future.

Cheers,
SP

Good idea, SP. I mean, I feel I have told H what I want in this dept. previously, so it is frustrating to keep asking. (I didn't in terms of this past weekend, specifically, but it isn't like I have never requested this kind of thing.)

It doesn't help that I recall the lengths he went to for OW and feel I am worth not just "at least" that amount, but MORE. No one had to tell him to make THOSE arrangements...

Yes, I know it does not do to dwell on those things, but those painful thoughts creep in and cause anger and sadness.

Sunny:


I know exactly what you mean. FHW is NOT obsessed with me as he was when we first dated ... or as he was with skankho.

But when I think realistically about our marriage, I know that kind of obsession isn't sustainable, and that I need to be realistic. I HAD those times with my FWH when we were dating. Those days are over and have been replaced with a deeper, more fulfilling type of love that we have developed over the years, and obviously, through Marriage Builders.

Does that sound defeatest? I hope not. Because I firmly believe that longtime love CAN be more rewarding that the crazy times of first love.

I guess, to me, it's the marathon aspect. That race isn't always fun or pleasant, but it sure has made me strong!

But here's something: lately, I find myself doing MORE romantic little things in hopes that I'm filling his love bank higher so that he will respond in kind. Yes, he does romantic things (hugs, kisses, sweet words), but those are more immediate/easy things. Things he doesn't even have to think about. They are instinctual.

So, is it that he's not meeting my level of romance or intimacy?

I guess I don't want to be taken for granted ... ever again.

Is that how you're feeling Sunny?

I don't expect big romantic stuff to be "on" all the time. As you mention - the deeper relationship is much better than a bells and whistles here or there. HOWEVER.... I guess I want to see the effort some of the time on the "effort" things! I mean, shouldn't a former wayward WANT to do some wooing after all the hurt they caused??? Show some appreciation and gratitude for the spouse that stuck beside them even though others would've called it quits?

And YES... I think you struck a chord here, SP: I also find myself thinking my H is doing great at these instinctual things but I feel I am the one going out of my way to make sure I'm making deposits and not withdrawals. THIS is exactly why I am feeling dissatisfied despite our success. You help me put a label to it! (THANKS!) I DON'T want to be taken for granted and yet I'm thinking that between all the changes I made in myself throughout this whole process and my continued work during recovery, I am still doing more heavy lifting than H. It doesn't seem right. HE should be doing more being that he was the unfaithful one!

I guess it's about wanting to feel things are equitable. Yet, maybe they just can't be. Maybe I'm supposed to be happy with the efforts I'm getting and not worry about fairness.

As I keep stressing - MOST of me is happy. I'm not walking around acting cranky, pouting, or LBing. I'm just not sure I will shed this feeling I have that H should be doing more.

And maybe he can do more

This is where the EN lists and questioarire comes in

Everybody has emotional needs, not everybody understands theirs

They often don't want to admit them either

It sounds like your stalling on opening up these things because once seen for how valuable they are, and experienced for all they are intended to be, wild horses couldn't hold you back

Does he understand and realize what his needs are really? Or is he goin on what he is supposed to according to his opinion?

See if you guys can explore those areas passionately and discuss them.

Sunny:

Not sure it will ever be equitable. So ... what do you think Marital or Pep would say to us, carping about loving, devoted husbands who aren't meeting our needs.

Probably that we need to tell them that they aren't meeting our needs? LOL!

Sweet

Marriages do not have to become stale, that's what TV and other people say.

You can create life in them, if you try

What sunny and I are saying is that we feel like WE are creating more life in our marriages than our FWHs.

That their "efforts" don't seem to be anything other than "normal" husbandry type affection/love/romance.

Since they betrayed us, shouldn't THEY work just a smidge harder than us?

Wandered in.........exactly how I feel....sad to say that you me and Tex are all married to the same man!!

He's been a pillock, he's trying to make it right and still we want more, and always it comes down to making an effort to win us over, to show us in the way we think they showed her. (the fluffy stuff)

Look at his love language, mine is nest building!

All good points and valid observations!

The key truly is talking about this stuff.

In our circumstances I think our Takers are being a bit riled up because of all we've done to save our marriages and now we're giving so much. Now: this doesn't mean we should stop meeting needs or start LBing. This also doesn't mean our husband's aren't doing any giving. They are just doing the easy giving in our perception and not the stuff that makes us swoon.

I know it might be said that if we are filling up their love banks then they will WANT to fill ours...but in human psychology it is easy for people to take for granted what they are getting easily and readily. Our psyches are built to want a "chase" - to pursue something that appears out of our grasp.

Yet, it is important to educate on how best to quickly fill your love bank. (As Constant Process says, pursue this with a passion!) However...motivation is needed as well.

I do think, CP, that part of this is in needing to explore ENs further - and that's what we are doing. I think a year into recovery (or longer for Tanam) you need different things than when first in recovery. You also need a better understanding - both parties do - of what that means on a deeper level.

I fully admit that I have been hesitant to go out on a limb and make myself 100% vunerable again. It's hard. It might be time to do so - but it's still hard!

EXACTLY! We feel - for better or worse, Constant, that they should be doing some of the heavy lifting here... that they should WANT to do the heavy lifting: you know, whatever it takes to make us feel great about them again. Instead, I think we are left feeling like they think our "prize" is "getting them back" and isn't that enough?!

Well, of course I wanted my husband back: not the cheater guy, but the great guy I knew was hidden there. However... HE got a HUGE prize as well: he got to COME back. He got me - and his children. He's the one that risked it all. I think SweetPea and probably Tanam too - are also feeling this. We want to see some demonstrated gratitude, darn it! And shouldn't it be natural instead of forced?

(Sunny....waiting for the smack: )

I know girls, guys don't like to admit they have been fools either, and like to be right also.

It's is our strongest suit

Listen just wanted to acknowledge what you said

No twoxfours for you, just a little low in spirits right now, but didn't want the opportunnity to go by

Maybe will have more insight tomorow

CP: I hope that today finds you in better spirits! You're always lifting others up around here so let me know if I can help.

Thank you for taking the time to provide some input. It's much appreciated.

I agree with Sunny, CP, hope you're having a better day.

Sunny. I think your last comment is the key. Demonstrated gratitude. I've been pondering this over the past couple of weeks, and feel that the BEST thing I could do to divert pain of D-Day antiversary, is to dig out HNHN and read it together with the hubby each night to get us through.

I'll let you know how that idea goes over!

and lots and lots of affection, conversation, fun things and wild sex......that should take your mind off things!!

Go buy some new toys and lingerie

Massage oils and chocolate spread

(May need some towels too!)

Enjoy the man you have not last years version.

That's what we're doing - going through HNHN. Also got the book 5 Love Languages that I've heard so much about. Maybe it'll help!

I don't have a problem with this, but I tell ya... the "romantic acts of gratitude" sure would amp up my motivation in this area!

Have these guys realized how common it is for men to screw up like this because they thinknwith the wrong head?

If they did, then maybe they would work harder for affection because they knew they had that weakness

Yep they must all ways earn thier way into your heart, and when they do, much will happen in thc bedroom

The biggest erogenos zone in a women is in her mind. Don't they know it will be a constant battle to maintain that place in thier heart?

So what they screwed up? Can't they get over it and back on the program? They found out they were human and gotta get back in the game.

Hope you guys have passionate all encompasing sex this weekend, knowing how lucky you are to have each other and posses each others body like you were made to

God bless

Ok back to posting from PC instead of iphone lol

Well yeah, I understand your point of view, about

"I think we are left feeling like they think our "prize" is "getting them back" and isn't that enough?!"

I think its really a fake-out to tell you the truth, a stand-off, a show like a cat falling off a table they are sleeping on and acting like they meant it.

Make em work for it, and show you they are sorry and that you are the one.

This is part of the recovery, and DR H suggests the men come back with hat in hand, and work hard towards reconciliation.

Its not the same with women, and men are different, (Isn't that what you guys like about us anyways?)

Maybe it is tough that you still have tender places inside that need healing, and they will have to work at earning forgivness, its not chopped liver.

Its still in the healing process, and as much as they might want it to go away, the care they take in this can strengthen the relationship. Just be aware that they might not accually realize what they have done yet, and really are single minded and result oriented, not seeing that the results are more broad in your minds, than thiers, and the same emotionally. It can dawn on them at anytime as they think and reflect on things in time.

I hope they come to you with a tear in thier eye, saying how sorry they are, and wishing they had not hurt you, as a surprise someday, as they realize it, and not to long from now either, life is too short.

I hope for that too, CP.

I think part of the issue (at least in my scenerio, not sure about SweetPea's) is that there is still some of that posturing you described with the cat/table. My H HAS shown hat in hand previously, but probably feels like, "Dang..it's been

Plus, not wanting to be the bad guy, he holds onto the fact that he got to the point of having the affair because I had my issues - so while he does feel bad about it, he's not just some jerk that cheated for sex. (His A, after all, was mostly by internet and only physical a few weekends he flew to see OW over the course of the 9 months.) So, while definitely sorry, he doesn't feel this big wave of, "What have I done?!" Oh - he IS working in recovery...but he's not of the mindset I would love to see. I can accept that because I know we are different people, and I can't force him to feel what I want him to feel.

However...I did stress to H that I expect continued work. It's necessary to facilitate change - and change is necessary because I cannot go through another marital crisis.

As for the previous post, I can look back and see where I probably made things pretty easy for him in the SF dept. and in returning in general. I wanted so much to prove that we could make it that I probably didn't make him work as hard as I've seen some others do with their returning waywards. I definitely had all the necessary requirements of the MB program though - and maybe it is a good thing that I was quickly forgiving in some ways. I have to think of the positives. Me being loving probably helped there be less withdrawal from OW, perhaps.

In the SF dept, I have always been pretty high drive myself, so I don't take a whole lot of convincing, lol. BUT... I definitely enjoy it more and it is much more fulfilling when that ole erogenous zone for women (the brain) is engaged!

SO, as it stands: H is prepared to discuss ENs and all that again. He finished 5 Love Languages this week, but really - the questionnaires and explanations in HNHN are just better to provide focus and actions rather than just theory.

H mentioned seeing the MC again - mainly in helping him with determining ENs better and communicating them in a constructive way. I don't think it would hurt but I don't think it's necessary really. It tells me that he either is afraid of us having a conflict or afraid of hurting my feelings. As I told him - part of the lesson of all of this is to GET THROUGH that, not avoid it.

I just had an epiphany while commenting on another thread. I was wondering earlier if I have been setting expectations too high. You know, being a crazy-maker because my posts seem to say that I am one of those "never satisfied" types.

You know what? That's really not it. It would be easier to come on here and talk about how great things are and such. The reality is, for my personal thread - I am here to get help: to be accountable. (For other threads, I hope to help others - as well as remind myself of important factors.)

I am GLAD that I remain somewhat unsatisfied at the moment: not because I don't want to let go of what happened, but because H and I both still have areas we need to do better in, in order for our marriage to become GREAT and not just acceptable. I believe the MB program is to propel you to greatness... and I am holding on to that goal with both fists!

I don't want to become complacent. Maybe there will be a day when it all runs like clockwork and I won't need so much help. I HOPE! lol

I just need to remember to keep looking inward and not just at H. We BOTH need to keep working the program and to go right back to it when we get off course. It DOES work!

Sounds like your doing just fine SunnyD. So fine it is really hard to tell where you begin and the marriage relationship does.

It takes time and it IS uniquely your relationship also, I don't know where someone is SUPPOSED to begin to understand the intricacies of another man and womens relationship when it is getting to that close area of intimacy.

Maybe that is just a numbskull guy thing, not that we are numbskulls, just more specific minded when it comes to our persoanel relationships. Does that make sense?

Again it takes time, and yes I love it that you are expecting progress also and attentivness to the relationship. I think you are doing and thinking in a healthy way and I pray he is also opening and expanding his mind and heart in many ways.

keep swinging

Well, I think most people - numbskull guys as well as stubborn girls are usually more focused on their own relationships. There are some exceptions, of course. The main exception is those of us who study human behavior and really want to figure out why us humans do what we do! I happen to be one of those: love psychology, philosophy, and sociology... With all the great male AND female minds we have - perhaps it is more of a personality thing, not so much gender. Having said that, in the marital relationship, when it becomes what it is supposed to be, only those two people really know exactly what's what within it. I agree!

I can honestly say that while I have to do the prompting at times, Mr. Sunny is definitely open and expanding his mind & heart. We had some very good conversations today about fulfilling each other's needs and how best to do so. There was even action on his part to show that he is making an effort!

We're not perfect at this communicating thing yet, but we have definitely made progress! I believe deposits were made in both our banks!

Thats so good to read. I wish my H was a bit more willing to talk about us, any time I bring the subject up I can feel him withdrawing, maybe feels like he's going to be hot with all the A stuff, but he just won't talk about feelings. He says it's obvious to him but does acknowledge that he forgets I need to words.

I am learning to read his love language though and he does try with his actions, far more than words, so I guess I should just be happy with that rather than moaning!!

He keeps nest building so I guess that's better than it could be.

Great to hear this, Sunny. Keep up the good work!

Thanks for the encouragement, SP!

I'm trying. I feel sometimes like I have good progress and then get waylaid with other things, and things go back to "the usual". SIGH. LOL

Well, yes and no, Tanam. I think it's perfectly fine - as I said above - to have high expectations for your marriage. You're talking about reading your H's love language but here's the thing: HE needs to learn to know YOUR love language and show YOU love the way you most need it! (and vice versa) I don't think you should have to accept "what he's willing to give" alone.

That's what all my communication is about lately: "OK, Honey, I appreciate your efforts, but you're still giving me only X when I need Y...."

It's not so much about discussing "feelings" which tends to turn men off - but ways of meeting needs. When you can talk solutions instead of feelings, that is usually the best way to get through to a man. They like to fix things. BUT...sometimes they need motivation to fix things the way we need them instead of just the way they want to do so.

Appreciate his efforts - but work towards getting your love language in there as well as his.

I agree with the thought that they'd rather fix than talk about how they or we feel.

Yup, fixing things, thats what mine does, endlessly doing up the house, building things for work and he seems to feel he can fix us in the same way, by just getting on with it. Which is true but it leave few windows for expressing how I feel without getting the rolling eyes.

And then he does something like buys me a hobby horse for my birthday (I want a real one, but it was funny), he wrote me a love letter.

But he won't talk on a day to day basis about his feelings. I understand it, but it doesn't stop me getting frustrated!

I understand, Tanam. I'm married to a "non-talker" too. He WILL if he's forced too, but he doesn't like to.

An example of my H and his "non-talkative" self:

Last night we had DVR'd some shows to watch. I asked if he wanted to watch a certain one and he replied he did not - that the subject matter was not good for him. (I forgot his exact words.)

What was the subject matter: the dude in the main story line got got cheating.

OK, so... it's been tough for us previously watching something when adultery becomes a main topic. I know he's uncomfortable, he is thinking it's just reminding me about the affair... but, do you think he wants to discuss this and get it out there? No, of course not: to him, it's best to just leave it alone.

I guess I can understand it: reminders are lovebusters. However, I can't help but feel we, as a couple, are giving our power away when we just cringe and avoid. No, I don't think it should become a 3 hour conversation, but why can't it be addressed?

I don't know - maybe he's right. Maybe certain things are just better to avoid rather than thinking talking solves everything.

Verdict's still out, from my perspective.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/mb2.cfm?recno=4&sublink=32&subsublink=302

Read and reflect, ladies.


And... on the whole subject of media with depictions or allusions to infidelity;

NGB recorded a bunch of movies off of the Hallmark channel, since they are rolling out Christmas movies.

I got excited when I saw they did a movie version of Gift of the Magi.

After watching this "modernized" film adaptation, all I can say is, Hallmark can shove it.

The original story is such a beautiful depiction of love and giving... the movie version corrupted that with deceit.

I'll leave you to read the original story (if you haven't already), but I'll summarize the movie adaptation.

Rather than a pocket watch, Jim has a car. Rather than her hair, Della has a camera.

One of Della's strategies to get Jim his gift, is to get a second job... and LIE about it.

So, Jim puts 2+2 along with seeing her enter a Hotel (her second job) with another man (her boss).

When he calls her out for cheating, she goes nuts and leaves him, and her little harpy friends at work talk about what a horrible man he is for accusing her.

She blasts him for spending all his time working on the car (which he is fixing to sell to get her gift).


All in all, the movie isn't "Gift of the Magi," it's "How to Wreck a Marriage in One Holiday."

Not. Pleased.

Anyway, read, reflect, review the conversation article, it's imperative reading to get the need for conversation met for both spouses.

Ahhh...GREAT reminder, HHH!

I keep thinking of it in terms of him "not opening up" when I NEED to be thinking of it as my job to investigate and provide the right atmosphere for him.

Thank you, thank you, thank you for this!

Of course, devil's advocate in me says, "What - another job for ME??? What about him!!!"
LOL.
Sorry


I totally agree with you on the Gift of Magi: that's TERRIBLE! Keep the current cr@p - give me the old-fashioned values!

I hate that we have to deal so much with infidelity in tv and movies. I know it's part of life - but it's difficult when you've been there.

I can say this much: No longer do I "accept" it when someone is cheated on but "they were a bad person anyway" kind of mentality. Makes me ill.

Sunny:

But don't forget: FWH also has to use the tools of good conversation toward you: investigate.

I find that my FWH does ask me how my day was or how I'm feeling, but not much beyond there.

I'm not sure if it's simply because, once asked, I fill up the void with detail and he doesn't need to ask a follow up question; or he's just not that interested in the topic/answer/issue.

Hmmmmm. Will see how much back-and-forth occurs in our next good conversation.

Cheers,
SP

Exactly, conversation is a two way street.

However, using RH, using PoJA, using the Friends of Good conversation - we are responsible to let our spouses know how we like our need met, and we are responsible to meet our spouse's need to the best of our ability (so long as we enjoy doing so as well).


Everything always boils back down to RH and PoJA.

SP and Sunny......again I see our H's are siblings separated at birth!!

I think maybe there is something to be said, an acknowledgement, but mostly I enjoy the wordless stuff I get. He gives an extra squeeze in a cuddle, a smile over the table, a touch as he passes. While I would like more 'conversation' he finds it hard, painful and really why push it??

Thats how I feel today, tomorrow, may be different and back to grumbling, but my 2p worth

Tanam - maybe they ARE separated at birth! Mine is GREAT with affection - not with words though. Or...maybe they're just male. LOL

HHH - you're right, it is a two way street. It's just that I seem to be more willing to drive that road than H. I can't blame him - it's somewhat a gender thing, somewhat a personality thing. Doesn't mean he gets let off the hook though. lol

SweetPea, I laughed when I read your post. Usually all it takes is one simple question and I tell EVERYTHING. lol Well, not always - not if I'm cranky or feeling sad. It's actually quite a barometer of how I'm feeling at the moment. "Is she talking?.. No. UH OH" LOL

Wanted to pop in for a bit since it seems like forever since I've done so. I have been so extremely swamped with school work as well as domestic duties that I simply haven't had time to be involved.

I'm trying hard to keep balance between school and home but lately it has not been easy. I've had nights of being up til 4am getting projects done and days on end of nothing but classwork. It's this darn honors program! I'm hoping it is worth it!

Anyway, the positive is that my mind's too busy to trigger. The negative is, I feel I am not doing a great job making my marriage a priority and that's not acceptable. Oh - it hasn't been consistently that way, but too much so, overall. Thanksgiving was great! This week - not much balance.

H is doing well - has been reading His Needs, Her Needs still. Can't say I've seen a lot of actions initiated by reading it, but I take responsibility for that as well. I need to make initiatives myself. (He says I did a lot over Thanksgiving week though.)

H is proud of my school efforts and I know it is something that causes respect as well as pride in him for me. Not to mention - when I'm done it will help us financially, so he is definitely for it! I just am a bit overwhelmed with everything being "work" and not enough "play" but I guess that's life sometimes.

The good part is, we're talking more lately and it is getting more comfortable, expressing our thoughts, feelings, and needs. We aren't completely there yet in terms of ease, but progress is progress. Sometimes I think progress is going too slow...but it's better than regression, right?!

Back to my history paper..... Hope everyone is doing well!!!

Do you schedule UA time in your diaries, Sunny, as Dr H recommends? (Forgive me for not having read the whole thread. You've probably answered that before.)

SC, we didn't have to schedule UA time before these past few weeks. We spent every evening together except for Wednesdays (when I'm in class) and Tuesdays nights we had family nights with the boys. We also spent all weekends together, for the most part, except for a few hours here or there. I've always tried to do my classwork while he is at work. BUT...the last few weeks I have spent a great deal more time on school stuff in the evenings and on weekends. So, we should have scheduled our UA time to ensure we got in the right amount of hours but we just didn't. Now, because H was off work for a few days during Thanksgiving week, we got plenty of time in together. Although, our daughter was home that weekend so time was spent with her as well. This past week, we did have date night but I doubt we got in a good, quality 15 hours together.

SO...all that to say....guilty of not making it the #1 priority.

I will say this: the other night when I had to stay up most the night on a presentation, H stayed right up with me, and helped me where he could. I'm not sure that would count as "recreational time" lol but he DID meet my needs of helping me when I needed an extra pair of ears, eyes, and brains.

The week before I made a cheesecake for his office luncheon - maybe that helped offset some need-meeting. ???

Hi, Sunny:

Juggling it all again, aren't you!? I know exactly how you feel when you're getting squeezed and the pressure is on.

We have been falling back on watching TV together and not really talking. So, I, too, need to get motivated to conduct proper UA time. Though we had a fantastic weekend together -- alone -- including shooting footage for a work video of little "angels" in a local "Nutcracker" ballet show. Totally sweet, and we both love the challenge of shooting. Very fun!

So, yes, you feel it when you're not getting 15 hours a week in. Scheduling it sounds good. I also know that admiration is in his top needs, so I make sure to text him and call during the day. Not only does it feel good to him, but it makes ME feel good to be meeting a need of his. And I make sure to make it about HIM, not groceries or chores or whatever. Just how his morning or afternoon is going, and a little flirting goes a LONG WAY with him, too.

Cheers to you Sunny!

Hugs,
SP

Thanks, SP! Good to see you resurface again too!

I try to remember to text/email H when he's at work too.... and to watch that my stress level doesn't show up when he calls. I've learned that one of his LB's is when I answer the phone in a grouchy manner, even if I don't mean to.

I bet shooting the little ones was a ton of fun! So sweet and precious - especially in The Nutcracker!!!

We're going to go out tonight, so I'm glad about that. Last year at this time we spent a lot of UA time driving around looking at Christmas lights. It was wonderful! I'd make some hot chocolate, grab a blanket if it was cold (cuz you gotta have the windows down) and we'd go to the neighborhoods better known for decorations with Christmas music on the radio. You can't beat it: it's sentimal, takes your focus off everything else, and you talk and dream a bit together. Definitely tops on the list. In fact, after the movie tonight I bet we'll go!

Love the idea of driving and looking at Christmas lights. We can even bring the dog ... or a kid (if they'd tolerate it!).

We are having a quiet and unexpected kid-free night tonight, so we have pledged to launch fully into HNHN reading/discussing. And the hubby actually seems interested to do it.

He read my thread a few weeks back and was somewhat shocked/dismayed at my wailings on here. Said it scared him that he'd not been meeting his end of some expectations (generally in the attention to me department). So, I thought a thorough reading w/workbook of HNHN was in order.

I'm just hoping I can inject a little bit of fun into the conversation, too. Maybe flirting with his top EN (sexual fulfillment!).

OK, gotta get off the forum and get some things done around here!

We went through the workbook last year but H had never read HNHN thoroughly. He seems to like it. I really feel Dr. Harley does a GREAT job of appealing to men in his relationship writings. I mean, I can't speak from a man's point of view, but out of all the marriage books I've read it does seem to me that Harley's approach truly shows both genders that they can have a relationship that is OUTSTANDING for both parties. Too many writers have catered towards men needing to be "understanding" and whatnot and not given equal voice to what men need to be happy.

Just my thoughts - but that's why I think my H has been open to MB - and why it is so successful when properly implemented.

Sunny:

Just thought I'd check in. (We have internet service back at home after nearly a month without. YEAH!).

So, where are FWH and I? We only bought one copy of HNHN along with the workbook; so I read the first two chapters of the book, and have left the book on FWH's nightstand. It's been there for a week. We'll see if/when he picks it up.

I think he is conflicted about doing this reading/MB work: He wants us to move forward and thinks the book will help. However, I think he fears he'll end up dredging up a lot of affair talk in the process, which will make us both feel bad. I know that's not going to be the case, as this book deals with how to meet each other's needs. ... But ... I would like to see some action/reading. Hmmmm.

I will let you know if he does start reading. How long do you think I should "wait" to remind him that the ball is in his court (to read the first two chapters and then discuss with me)? Have to admit that this had made me a smidge annoyed. Not super annoyed, but a smidge.

On the GOOD side, we had a GREAT weekend. We went to the football game in Green Bay for the day on Sunday, and that put my FWH in seventh heaven. We had UA time in the car together (nearly three hours each way), shared fun at the game and time talking at dinner (at an excellent German restaurant, which I loved).

I only had two small triggers at the game: a friend offered us each a beer. One was called "Two Girls" and FWH picked that one and made some sort of joke that that was the "right" one for him. Turned my stomach. I can't even tell you what he MEANT by saying that?!?!? It's the kind of joke he would have made BEFORE the affair (you know juvenile-sex jokes) with no intent of truth behind it. But now ... I couldn't BELIEVE those words came out of his mouth. Secondly, I had a very minor jolt of anxiety when, at half time, I switched seats with a friend's husband so that I could chat my friend during the second half (I only get to see her during these games; she lives far away). During FWH's affair, we switched seats at a game so we girls could catch up. FWH spent that time texting skankho. (FWH was supposed to take DS13 to game, not me and thought she was clear to make contact). Plus, because of the texts that were on his phone, after the game FWH wouldn't let me use his phone and it led to a huge fight, because he was just being so weird and awful. Downright rude and prissy, to be frank. Boy! If only I'd known!!!!!!

OK, whew! That was a lot of venting for what really was a good day. Anyway, on the drive home, I brought up the "Two Girls" beer incident, and FWH said he realized as he was saying his little joke that it was the wrong thing to say, but he wasn't quick enough on his feet to stop himself or think of something else.

I told him that, of course, he's more than free to continue to make comments like that (as if he's never had an affair, or in his case three in his lifetime), but he should know full well that they throw me into "affair" tailspin.

He got it, of course. And even said what a HUGE love buster that had to have been. So ... that is good, right.

And to pat myself on the back a bit, I didn't let either triggers throw me into a bad mood nor did I bring them out during our recreation time together. We really had a GREAT time, and FWH said he was happy that I was able to do that despite the love bust. (I didn't tell him about the trigger of switching seats because I WANTED to switch seats and catch up with my girlfriend; I guess I'll have to think more about whether I should really do that in the future. But I do think I was able to get over the anxiety of it pretty easily ... )

What's up with you Sunny? Are you making a strategic plan to get through the holidays and with school and with kids and with marriage recovery?

LOL! I made FOUR "to do" lists over the weekend: personal; home project needs; Christmas; and a business launch plan (video biz). Everything but the home projects list needs to be done by Christmas or Jan. 1. All I can say is: YIKES! and that God likes to laugh when we make plans.

Hugs,
SP.

HA HA...I like that last line, SweetPea: it's true, God really does laugh when we make plans! I am great at making plans. The problem is sticking with them. I'm learning that it's better to just "do" than to "plan" for me. I spend too much time making the plan, lol.

I have finals in the next few days - then my birthday is on Saturday - then get to relax for a bit! Well, I say that. I've done NO shopping and haven't even finished Christmas decorations. We usually have the best house on the block!

As far as the book goes, I can understand why you are frustrated your H hasn't been more progressive on reading it. I get the same when I feel I have to do the leading and push H to do things. It makes me feel I am more vested in recovery than he is. It may not be true, but that's what I feel like. I think you should say something to him. It doesn't have to be dramatic, but just a quick text stating you'd really like him to get that done soon so you can compare notes. First of all, if you don't make it a priority it will drag on forever....I know, BTDT. Second, when you wait too long after reading, you forget stuff. You need to discuss it while it's fresh. (Sidenote: I think that's why couples on here do so well after years of recovery in terms of keeping their marriage a priority: they keep reading, keep listening, keep being reminded that it's important to keep on keepin on and it always stays fresh!)

I guess the part where affair talk could come in is where one of you thinks in terms of, "Oh..THIS need wasn't being met, that's why it happened..." but really, Lovebusters was much more of a trigger to me than HNHN in that regard. I wonder to some degree if it doesn't bring up other issues. It can make a person very vulnerable to have to admit to certain needs. Hmmm.... I just thought of that actually. Men don't like to appear vulnerable!
I mean, it's a win-win for both parties, but it doesn't mean it is easy. The concept is easy but in practice, it can be difficult in day-to-day life. We get tired and so many demands pull at us, ya know? But, being able to focus on the most important needs, as Harley says, brings about great satisfaction.

As for your weekend triggers - boy do I know the feeling! I'm glad you shared with him about the comment. I can tell you, it would've thrown me for a loop too! It just goes to show you how much your H has moved on, actually. I find it the same way: my H has moved on in a lot of ways that I haven't been able to yet. Of course, it's because they didn't endure the hurt that we did. Yet, it's good that they have moved on... it just feels unfair! We'd rather have them "moved on" than still pining for the OW!!!

As for the seat changing, it may be one of those things that because you endured it this time that next time it won't be so bad, ya know? I've been through several experiences that I triggered big time but it was worth it: not things I wanted to avoid doing just because it would incur triggers. I mean, you have to reclaim a bit of life at times - make it your own again.

AND...how bout them Packers?! Wow! I really think they could do it: go unbeaten and win the Super Bowl again! Of course, my boy Tebow is making it easier on ya'll. So much of the media spotlight is put on him right now that it's taking the pressure off Green Bay! lol

Anyway, I think it is a GREAT thing that your H recognized what a LB it was - the comment that he made. I'm sure you felt better with the apology instead of him trying to justify it. That shows a great attitude on his part - and his commitment to making things right.

Brings me to my weekend fight with my hubby....lol. I'll start another reply on that. THis is getting long!

Sunny:

Excellent points. I agree on the issue of men, at least on the surface, not wanting to seem vulnerable.

And you make another excellent point on the issue of how far FWH has come in terms of not even "thinking" about the impact of "Two Girls" joke. But ... I also think that could lead to disaster. Sure, I don't want him to be mired in guilt over his A, but he needs to understand that jokes like those not only lovebust but are "old thinking" ways. Party animal. Jokey. Fun-at-all costs. Open and ready for anything. Some men -- without boundary issues -- can joke like that. But my husband should have a knee-jerk reaction to those kinds of thoughts after all we've gone through.

Tells me there is work to be done, to as you so rightly point out, maintain and cherish!

Do spill about fight. We will fully digest it and slay its causes and repercussions!

Hugs,
SP

So - H and I got into a fight on Saturday, as I mentioned in my post above. It started out over something seemingly stupid. (Don't they all?) It went a little something like this:

We had a friend in from out of town. We live about an hour away from the city, and our friend had to go to the convention center for a couple of hours. We said we'd take him and pick him back up, so he didn't have to rent a car. Well, he was working for about 3 hours so H and I figured we'd do something together while friend was working.

After we dropped friend off, we went to check out the big movie theater not to far away. There was nothing on at a good time that either of us wanted to see. We decided maybe to go to the big mall. Well, traffic getting into the area was insane. Neither of us wanted to fight the car traffic or the mall traffic if it was that bad. So, we opted out of that as well. There was a car H was interested in looking at for sale, so we went and looked at that. That killed some time. Then we stopped at a gas station. That's where things went wrong, believe it or not!

Both H and I were hungry but we didn't want to eat a big meal because we were going out to dinner with friend (and our sons) later, when friend was off. H mentioned grabbing McDonalds - right at the gas station. I said that would be a bad plan, with all the time we had to kill. Then we discussed not wanting to eat anything big either. Then, S17 called, and I was talking with him as H got out of the car to get gas. It took him a long time. Why? Because he grabbed some cheeseburgers from McDonalds while I was on the phone after getting gas. I was aggravated. Had we not discussed NOT getting McDonalds?

I made a comment about how I thought we weren't getting McDs. H said he was starving so he got a couple burgers. I felt he had been inconsiderate, and was behaving independently. He felt he was just hungry. Well...I was hungry too! I thought we would go somewhere, have a drink or two and maybe get appetizers. We had TONS of time to kill still! He said we could still do that. I thought, "Why would we do that when you just ate 2 cheeseburgers?!" AND...because I was aggravated, and my feelings were hurt, I was negative, saying I didn't want to go do that now, after he'd just eaten without me. (My feelings were hurt because of the IB part of things. It felt very non-caring.)

OK...so...this went round and round for a bit, then he raised his voice and yelled at me. Well, I started to cry. Then, he commented that I wasn't allowed to cry. That made me cry more...and made me mad. You can see where this is going: nowhere good.

He finally told me that it made him crazy when I am negative and shoot down every solution he comes up with - and he was sorry for yelling. I could understand that. I apologized for being negative and that I should have just spelled out what I was feeling from the get-go. So, in a way, I was being unreasonable. Yet, I didn't like that he is so geared to finding my faults that he does not look at himself and his own faults. It wasn't like he behaved appropriately in the whole matter.

So...it was all very stupid and very high school-ish. Yet, it is rare that this kind of thing happens. Thinking on it now, I believe I know why I was so triggered so easily. Our friend who is in town treats his wife like she is a princess. He puts her on a pedestal - and I would LOVE to be treated that way. She wasn't even with him this trip but even the way he talks to her on the phone makes me envious. I would love to feel cherished like that... It made IB cheeseburgers seem like a slap in the face when I know they weren't meant to be. Friend would never go get cheeseburgers, knowing his wife was hungry too and that they had discussed plans to eat...

I know my H has a different type of personality than friend does. I would never be attracted to someone like friend, more than likely... My H has a different way of talking - of showing care - of being romantic... yet, instead of accepting that, I want it how I want it, when I want it, the way I want it. While I don't think that's a bad thing, it is a thing.

I struggle: am I being too demanding, or is H just not "getting" what I want? Then worse thoughts come to mind, "Maybe he purposefully doesn't give me want I want, the way I want it." OR...even worse....maybe I am not 'good enough' to have what I think I deserve, at least in his eyes. I don't inspire him to "cherish" me, perhaps. Thus, my feelings vacillate between self doubt, anger, sadness, and self-pity.

Obviously we still have a lot of work to do in the "meeting needs" department.

The argument ended well in terms of having a good discussion. I told him he can't tell me I am "not allowed" to cry and he should care more about my feelings than being right at that moment. I agreed I need to be more reasonable and open-minded instead of so emotionally charged. We made up while we waited for friend. BUT....we sure wasted a couple of hours on nothing!

Some of it came down to bad communication. H thought our discussion over things was over. I didn't. (It was interrupted by S17's phone call.) It also didn't help that H did not tell me at the beginning that he got me a cheeseburger too, if I wanted it, in case I was hungry. He only mentioned getting burgers for himself.

I honestly don't know why I was so attitudnal about not wanting to go to a restaurant (for drinks/appetizers) after he'd just gotten the burgers. He said we could still do that. I feel funny about eating alone with someone else "watching" for one thing. I don't know why. For another, it was just the thought of us being not in sync.... of not working together... no POJA going on... it just felt wrong.

Yes, you are right: the mindset has to change, PERMANENTLY, even with joking. And I'm sure you want to feel he values his marriage way too much (after almost losing it) than to even think in jokey terms that way. You want to know he is protecting your marriage. Old habits die hard with old friends. It was just the way he's used to being, I'm sure, in that environment. I believe the next time he'll think better of it.

At least that's a trigger he can do something about. Not much he could do about the seat change thing, really. Well, unless handing you his phone while you're in the other seat would help... or at least periodically making a point to make contact with you during that time. He could text YOU!

I am really frustrated. After posting about the argument and sitting here thinking of ways I need to improve things, I happened on some LB worksheets that H recently filled out. He hasn't bothered to discuss them with me. They've had to have been there awhile, after looking at them.

Does it bother me that he finds things wrong with me? Not exactly. It's the fact that A: he has expressed none of this to me and B: that he (apparent in his writing) looks at everything as MY fault. If he is dishonest it's because of me; if he has an AO, it's because of me. He even wrote that "he only increases his volume level so I will understand he is right and I am wrong."

I'm upset. I don't mind changing things I need to change, but I don't know how on earth to deal with that attitude. The man truly thinks he is always right, regardless.

Heck, I bet he still thinks he had just cause to have an affair.....

Not a good afternoon.

I'm not sure that getting burgers would classify as independent behavior. Though I can see how you would feel that because you'd raised the issue and it hadn't been resolved, how you were thinking one thing, and he another.


I think that your feelings were hurt by something else, not the act of buying burgers. You get there further down in your post. ... And by killing the plans to have drinks/apps, I think you were trying to punish him for not doing what you wanted. I am guilty of doing that myself.


Huge lovebusters there. Everyone's allowed to cry, for cryin' out loud!


I sure wish he would have been able to phrase his need for validation (his ideas/suggestions that get dismissed) more positively, instead of making it a criticism about you. Could he have said: Hey, it hurts me to rarely have an idea that gets a nod of approval. Or if feels that way. Next time, can you agree to something I suggest?

I'm glad he apologized for yelling.

And ... how are you going to meet this criticism? How will you not shoot down his ideas? OR is this hyperbole in the heat of the moment, meaning you DO take his suggestions as equally as your own?


Hmmmm. Next time, maybe you should both reflect what each of you two could have done better, rather than tell each other what the other one did to piss each other off. Less lovebusting and more proactive in avoiding fights in the future.


Aren't all fights like this usually?


Aha! You've hit the nail on the proverbial head. You want to be cherished and you don't feel like it when you're fighting (and hungry to boot). So, now that you are out of the rational moments, take time to think about how your H cherishes you. Write a list. Is it long enough? Does it hit on your most important needs? If it doesn't, that's why you're feeling blue about it. If in this rational moment, you think the list is solid, well then you ARE solid!


"more than likely" ... that's a bit of a red flag to me, Sunny. Reads to me that you are somewhat "open" to being attracted to men other than your husband? I find that hard to believe and hope I am reading that phrase wrong. But the way you phrased it kinda panicked me a smidge.


But you fell in love with him, right? And if he's anything like my FWH, he hasn't changed all that much in the way he romances. So what did he do then -- that he's probably doing now -- that you simply couldn't get enough of? Or does he not do those things anymore?


From all you've written about your H, I don't think he's so complex as to double-fake you out and not give you what you want because he wants to somehow punish you.

I think it gets back to knowing what each other needs and how to hit those sweet spots. And, he needs to be retrained to hit your sweet spots so that you, in turn, make him go ga-ga and want to make you supremely happy.


Join the club, sister!


So, he was thinking of you and your hunger, just not in the "drinks/apps" kinda way. More in a CAVEMAN-MUST-EAT-AND-MAKE-WIFE-HAPPY-WAY?


I addressed this above. Let me know if you think I'm right ...

But, ultimately, it sounds like you ended it well. So my question is: Did you grind through it enough to help you in the future?

Cheers,
SP

Sunny: This is soooo crazy. Am editing a story and this quote was in it from James Joyce's "The Dead." I thought it quite fitting for your argument with H!

�When we are hungry, we are all very quarrelsome,� remarks one of the guests.

LOL...Too funny!!!

I will respond in a bit to everything you wrote (all GREAT stuff!) but need to respond to an email from H first.

I calmed down after I wrote my last post about finding the worksheets and wanted to write a quick update. I DON'T think that H thinks he is perfect and has no fault. I feel he knows his intent and he thinks it is perfectly clear, when it isn't always. Thus, because he knows HIS side, he doesn't understand when he gets negative response and then he feels he needs to attack.

It's my job to communicate better. Well, his too. But much of our issues just need better communication.

Anyway, to touch on one "alarming" thing from your post, SP: NO, I'm not open to being attracted to other men! I was thinking in psychological terms. You know, we tend to be attracted to a "type" and I've never been attracted to the Friend's "type" and therefore, I must (inwardly) be attracted to the type of man H is for a reason - that I need him to be who he is more than I need him to be a flowery romantic. Does that make sense?

Anyway, will hit on everything else momentarily. THanks!

[/color][/b]MY Replies...in RED. I felt it easiest to respond that way. I have no idea why it shows the color brackets though. ??? [color:#FF0000] [b]



[/color]Hopefully this all comes out readable![color:#FF0000]

Sounds good! Nice work on deconstructing the whole mess.

We had a horrible argument last week (something in the air?) about something missing in the house. I get blamed for "moving" things, but no one else likes to pick up. DS13 called me to say he was looking for a piece of paper and that dad had said I probably moved it. Made me furious, especially because I had no recollection of moving this important piece of paper. But what make me even more mad was that FWH said I did it to the kid. No support. And really no evidence.

We had a horrible fight on the phone (both at work), then I came home, and he apologized right out of the gate, but then we started on each other, and he literally kicked our dog in the midst of it (not hard, BUT STILL!!!!). I BLEW UP!!!! You do NOT take your aggravation with me out on a defenseless animal who wasn't doing anything than showing ME love because I just got home. OY BOY. That was not fun.

However, we soon talked it all over, and we both spent most of our time talking about how each of us could support each other more and not be to quick to attack each other.

Perfect ... we are not!

My husband and I get this way too. Sometimes it takes us a while to even try to see that the other is struggling with our position. But we are working those moments, so that is good!



And don't forget how old habits are a part of that. If you were like us, those love banks were probably fairly empty and there was probably a lot of fingerpointing to justify FHW's affair. In addition to building love, we all have to figure out a way to fight more fairly?


Perfectly! Glad you were able to put things back into perspective. But, hey, I know how easy it is to spiral out of control. Glad to see you pulled yourself out of that spiral.

None of us are perfect. I can say, however, that fighting is progress for us. It is better than keeping it in and stewing! It's just not fun at the time.

I think the important thing is to learn something from it and grow.

It's hard - as you mentioned in the subsequent post, to learn better habits. It's also hard to take the past out of the equation, but you really have to try to do so.

Sometimes just trying to give each other the benefit of the doubt is the most important thing.

[quote]Sometimes just trying to give each other the benefit of the doubt is the most important thing.[quote]

I think I'd want to hear my FWH actually SAY what his intentions are. Even if they weren't as good as he says, I think SAYING what they are might be useful. Cognitive behaviorally speaking?

Call me crazy!

Not crazy at all! You're right in that hearing it would help, a lot, I think. (Especially because after so many years there are preconceived notions that sometimes need dispelling.)

OH...not sure I mentioned it...but I felt a real milestone was hit with our Saturday fight. First time that I've been upset with H that I didn't think about the affair at all - only the issue at hand! Might seem small, but I'm taking it as a sign of another step towards moving on.

Yeah it does sound like a milestone Sunny. Conflict is good and natural for growth right? "sufficient for the day is the evil thereof", comes to mind.

Grats on this for you and your Hubby, and Merry Xmas also to you both

Thanks, CP!

Yes...conflict is good for growth, that's for sure. Nice quote, I like it!

Hope you and your family have a Merry Christmas as well.

I finished finals last night so I'm finally going to get my Christmas shopping done. Saturday is my birthday, so that should be fun! Except...I'm a bit sad. My poor daughter is sick as a dog - thinks she has mono - and might not be able to come home this weekend. I was thinking I should hop in the car to go help her out, but she says she's doing OK. She's had finals this week too but had to postpone 2 of them since she can barely get out of bed.

Merry Christmas Sunny...

Nice Thread. Coming up on 7,000 views so far.

Mr. Wondering

Thanks, Mr W! Merry Christmas to you and your family as well!

I feel truly blessed.

I hope to have more free time in the coming months to pay better attention and help out more. This past semester was so insane! I've got a break now until January and then next semester shouldn't be so daunting. Although, with having 3 kids and a hubby to attend to (not to mention the furry kids) I am always busy - but aren't we all?!

Sunny:

Happy belated birthday. Sorry I missed it on Saturday and i hope your Christmas is wonderful!

Cheers, SP

Thanks, Sweet Pea!

It was very nice! I had to give specific directions as to how I wanted the day to go, lol, but that's OK. I believe that H now knows exactly how I want my holiday needs met and will be able to do it without instructions later. He followed them all to the letter.

Last night H showed S15 His Needs Her Needs and told him it was the secret to getting girls and keeping them. LOL. He's learning. (And I am too!)

You sound great SD, and Happy belated Bday

You liked the saying, it is from the bible.

Matthew 6

31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, Wh at shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?

32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.

33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.


To me it is about priorities, which it sounds like you guys have a grip on also.

Hope your DD gets better, and merry Xmas

Sunny:

I'm so glad your B-day went well. Wondering if your sense of happiness was met having had your H meet your expectations that you had specifically laid out.

My guess is yes. That you have very specific ideas of how your needs can be met, and that by spelling them out, your H gets it accomplished.

You can give him the opportunity to "surprise" you on much less important days!

Cheers,
SP

Thanks, CP - for the birthday/Christmas/DD wishes.

I AM doing well, I'm happy to report! I am feeling trigger free and totally satisfied with recovery progress. I no there's no guarantees those darn triggers won't rear their ugly heads, but right now, we are doing GREAT.

DD is on her way home, my boys are doing well, S15 will be S16 tomorrow,H and I are awesome, and I'm done Christmas shopping! Couldn't ask for anything more.

I'm surprised I didn't recognize that verse. I usually know my bible pretty well. Hmmm... maybe my translation puts the wording differently.

Merry Christmas to you and yours, CP!

Yep - that's exactly it. It wasn't as much "fun" having to provide step-by-step instructions, but the way I chose to look at it was this: he cared enough to ask; and when I told him, he cared enough to follow through. It's much better than saying nothing and then things not going your way and being sad.

It helps that he asked because he really wanted to know and it was not one of those "I better do it so I'm not in the doghouse" kind of deals. I watched my dad have to do that with my mom waaay too much and it's not the same.

H has bragged about how much fun he's had Christmas shopping for me. I've had fun shopping for him too! I provided him (upon request) with a list of things that I would like. Not like a checklist of "get me A,B,C, and D..." but just a bunch of items in all kinds of price ranges that I would be happy to get. I certainly don't expect to get all of those things - they were just ideas, after all. I think we're going to have a lot of fun Christmas!

I'm trying to figure out what to make for Christmas Eve dinner. Any good ideas? It's just going to be the 5 of us. Christmas day I'm doing prime rib and all that. Last year we did finger foods but I don't know if I liked that. It was a lot more work than it sounds.

I still don't know what I'm doing for Christmas dessert! I'm making a cheesecake for S15's birthday tomorrow. I was thinking maybe chocolate mousse for Christmas - although, DD doesn't like chocolate all that much. (SACRILEGE, I know!)

Sunny:

I'm glad both events (birthday and Christmas) are meeting your needs! And, your H may develop be able to develop a habit of doing so more on his own as he continues to get excellent guidance and excellent feedback (and probably extra SF and affection, too) as a result. Ahhhh, the circle of needs meeting. Love it!

Ideas for Christmas Eve. I'm working on the Eve, and we're celebrating on Christmas Day. You're having prime rib on the day, so I'd do something super easy on the eve: fish? shrimp and pasta? Or would anyone tolerate an entree-style salad to save room for the big meal the next day?

If you want something impressive that's not that hard, try a stuffed crown pork roast. Once the stuffing is made, it's really just a matter of roasting it, so there's nothing to it. We made this for the big meal last year, and it went over really well.

We're trying something totally new this year, and I'm hoping it turns out. We're making German-style roasted pork shanks. Had them at a nearby restaurant and they were outstanding. Plus, we're both of German heritage, so we thought it would be fitting. FWH had a horrible time, though, finding pork shanks. We'll see!

Dessert? We're just having Christmas cookies. I kinda went a little crazy/Martha Stewart and made a bunch and some really beautiful/tasty ones. I'll try to post a pic if I can figure out how to. LOL!

Wish I could post a pic of my awesome pro-looking cookies, but I can't figure it out.

I don't know how to post pics either. I haven't done my cookie baking yet. Maybe today!

Good ideas for Christmas eve. I doubt my teenage boys would go for just salad,lol, but the other stuff is doable!

Love your German idea!

And yes - the circle of need-meeting is definitely GOOD.

Upload the picture to a photobucket account, and just insert the link.

Thanks for that tidbit, CP!

Wanted to wish everyone a VERY Merry Christmas!

H and I went to see Trans-Siberian Orchestra last night and they were INCREDIBLE! Loved it! We had such a good time! I highly recommend it.

I'm very thankful this Christmas for all my blessings - and to have a great family that's been put back together. I appreciate so much the advice and support I receive here, that's helped that happen.

H and I went to see Trans-Siberian Orchestra last night

Hard to believe! They are playing right now in our home, and my bride and I are going to see their matinee show Monday!

My son took his wife last night and they loved it! Merry Christmas, my dear friend!

NG - if you haven't seen them live before you are in for a real treat!

Merry Christmas to you to Mel, and many blessings as you give so much to everyone - I hope it comes full circle back to you!

Sunny:

Merry Christmas and have a wonderful New Year. This Christmas was SO much better than last year. I hope your's was, too.

With all the shopping, wrapping, cooking, cleaning, video projects, oh and work, I don't think I gave FWH's affair even a stray thought on Christmas Day.

Next year, I hope to have ot banished altogether!!!!

Cheers,
SP

Thanks, SP! It was GREAT! H and I had agreed ahead of time about how much we were going to spend on each other and we both got really thoughtful gifts for each other. AND...the best part - H gave me a card that was incredibly beautiful and meaningful. It made me tear up. We had a fabulous, relaxing day. The only bad part was D20 had to go back to college town last night, which I hated. (Had to work today.)

And yes - this Christmas was much better than last year's! Last year's was not bad - but I remember that memories and triggers were still very much a part of my thought process at the time. This year - NOT AT ALL. OK - once: my daughter mentioned a guy she has recently gotten to know in college and guess where he's from? Yep - same place as where OW lives! Not just the same state, but the same, dang city! She told me that on Wed. night, but other than that, no triggers! So, yeah - hopefully next year you and I both will have totally stray-thought free Christmases!

Going to see War Horse today - been looking forward to seeing it since we started seeing previews for it.

Two weeks from today will be our 21st anniversary. It's hard, financially, that it's so close to Christmas. I need to start thinking of some ideas to make it special that don't cost a fortune. Any ideas???

On another note, I am dreading taking down the Christmas tree and decorations. It's always so sad for me... This darn, overcast weather of late hasn't helped at all!

Read half of HNHN last night. H had been reading it the last several weeks and just got it back to me. (As a refresher, we decided to go through it since it'd been a year. Needs change from just after recovery back to more normalcy.) Anyway, it made me trigger! I felt quite a bit of sadness over some of the statements made, even though I've always known them to be true. To have the reality smack me in the face again that H will always love OW - and that sex was so great - is tough! Yes, I know that it's because the affair was a fantasy world, not reality. I also know that what we have is much deeper and will become even stronger. But, those thoughts did not take the pain away. I even had an awful dream last night!

I have not said anything about this to H. I do not want to bring up the affair. When I woke up from the nightmare (H had taken me to visit Skank!) I sorta woke him up and snuggled with him a bit. That helped.

Here's the problem: I have a tendency to go from sad to mad - to being hurt, to wanting to lash out, even if just with my thoughts. I start thinking things like, "He should be doing more right now, for me!" Or the ever-simmering, "Well, my needs weren't being met pre-crisis either, but I didn't go cheat!"

Thankfully I have learned to bite my tongue and not lovebust due to my thoughts. I am, however, trying to figure out how to constructively deal with this.

Triggers are never fun. These certainly aren't the worst I've had, so that's the good news. I just wish certain parts of HNHN could be read once and then erased! LOL

There were parts of HNHN that were very hard for me to read--the SF part was the main one I remember as being hard. I listened to the CD and tended to visualize THOSE two together instead of H & me together even though we had and still have a great love life. So yes, in some ways HNHN is a glaring reminder of all the hurts of the A as well as the shortfalls in a marriage. And same for Love Busters.

With a big HOWEVER, can you look back to your pre-A marriage and say that today's marriage is better? The goal of the program and the requirement of recovery from adultery is that the marriage must be noticeably better than before--part of the whole just compensation package.

Are your emotional needs being met in the way you would like? Has your H ended all love busters? Is he keeping up with the EPs? Are you and he getting in the required and very precious UA time?

If you ask your H, would he also say the same about his needs being met, etc?

Have you discussed the chapters in HNHN?

Yep - very hard to read some things, but in that, crucial reality checks are presented as you stated, LWFH.

Just to add - it doesn't help that one of the "couples" Dr. Harley discusses in the book are the names of my H and OW! THAT, in itself, is very hard for me to read.

I can honestly say that yes, our marriage is much better in certain ways than pre-affair. In others, it's the same, but we are working on bettering those parts. That's just it - our marriage was not really bad before the crisis. Oh, we were not connecting on some levels, but as we go through the needs and LBs, we both did decent jobs in a lot of areas. BUT...I realize, as Dr. H says, it's not good enough to bat 800, you've got to bat 1000.

Now that we've both re-read HNHN (I just finished today) we will discuss it thoroughly. I'm hoping that helps with the triggers from reading. We have all weekend together - so, plenty of time to go over it. We've had lots of UA time since I've been on break from classes, but need to up the quality, I believe.

Mostly, things have gone very well this past month. I'm focusing on that while trying to decide how best to tell H that I have been triggered, with the reading....

I can imagine how a young woman could understand HNHN in laymans terms, and not see deeper into a mans ENs than sexual.

I can also see how men could do the same thing, and provide only the bare basics that the average womens emotions cry out for.

These needs are just natural, and weaknesses also, and tender places we have as humans.

It would seem that we would at least hold up each other in those needs, and be ready to address others also, that would enrich each others lives.

But make no mistake, they are priorities, maybe thats why the bible addreses them as important for spiritual clarity.

You accually are part of each other, and become one flesh, and each other is affected with whatever the other does.

But my point here is, that the needs are not given to retain power to control the other, but to give to each other, so they're is no loss or wanting.

Yeah its spiritual, and as close to heaven that I can imagine, when nothing is missing

I tend to trigger about SF during SF. Bleh. I physically have to shake it off.





Anyways, other triggers...


First - UA, UA, UA. If you aren't getting that time in and the LB$ balance dips, your mood will set your mind a-triggering.

Second - I find that I will trigger if I fail to keep myself busy. For me, boredom feeds depressive episodes. Also; caffeine crashes - don't know if you drink coffee, or soda, or red bull... but physiological crashes, as caffeine running out, lead to depressive episodes. You will usually notice a physical "feel" to this before the mind gets working. Identify that, and keep busy, engage your mind before it starts ruminating over triggers.

Third - Rest. Make sure you are getting plenty of rest. Fatigue is physiologically depressing.


Last - know your plan! When you trigger, or when you get down, focus on here and now, and the future as according to your plan. Or, adjust your future plan - plan for more UA time (hey, I got a restaurant coupon on the back of my grocery receipt! we should go try that restaurant!).


Also, if I remember right, you are in OR - look up McMenamin's - they have several Hotels in NW OR. NGB and I stayed at the Grand Lodge last March on a package deal that included breakfast and dinner (it's continental breakfast on the weekends) - and most of the sites have a movie theater!

It was a fantastic weekend, and worth every penny!

This year, we are going to hit the Edgefield, and probably do the old Columbia Gorge highway again.

...trying to decide how best to tell H that I have been triggered...

It's true that bringing up the A months later is an LB, but bringing up the appearence of a trigger is most certainly something that your FWH should be made aware of, if it's of any duration at all (and lasting long enough to still be on your mind while posting here is long enough). We settled on a distinctive green notebook. If either of us had a bad moment, we would jot it down in that thing, and leave it for the other, who would respond (usually in writing). The book was available at all times, even if the other was momentarily away.

Also, consciously set up "trigger-fighters" that you can activate. I paraphrased Thomas Edison's, "Well, I now know that that will not work as a filament...." as he ran through hundreds of attempts, by saying, "Okay, that address, or reading, is now behind me as a trigger, and will not intrude again."

I definitely saw beyond the sexual elements for H. I also understand them. I happen to be pretty high-drive myself, so that didn't bother me at all. What bothered me was the comment about sex with the affair partner being so great - because it exists in the fantasy world. Oh, I KNEW that, from reading before - I just didn't like being reminded of it - or the fact that he shared something so intimate, with someone else. (Not that I'd forgotten, mind you, but it had stopped being so forefront in my mind.)

Actually, H insists that SF isn't his top need. I can see why that would be true - because it's something he's never lacked! lol Even pre-crisis we were a 3 times a week couple. His affair was definitely NOT because of lack of SF need-meeting.

But... what you are saying is not lost on me, CP. We affect each other greatly, even in moments when we think we do not. It's the way it's supposed to be!

Thanks, HHH. You make some EXCELLENT points. I am sure that triggering comes a lot more easily when I have too much time on my hands to think and re-think! With Christmas over and classes not starting back for me for a couple of weeks, I didn't have anything to take my mind elsewhere when the triggers came on.

I'm bad with caffeine too!

I do need a better plan of action for triggers. I'll have to think on the best ways to handle it. I know they most often persist when I am not with H. The worst triggers are when he is as work and I am home alone - or the boys are home but engaged in their own worlds. The problem tends to be that I get emotionally upset and then I don't feel like doing anything. Maybe I'm giving into the wallowing too easily!

Not in Oregon - but H has family there so maybe I've mentioned it. We're in the great state of Texas.

Well, Sunny... One of my IB/AH things prior to Dday was gaming. To the point my kids joked the computer was my "girlfriend."

The morning after ILYBINILWY I deleted all of my games and canceled all accounts. 10 months later, I was in school and working reduced hours to accommodate. At that time, I kept triggering and spiraling so bad, that there wasn't enough housework or homework to keep my mind busy.

So, I set one game back up for the times I need to occupy myself (NGB and I are currently on opposing schedules, hopefully rectified by Feb).

Some hobby that can occupy your mind, not just your time, will help.

I like the notebook idea, NG!

It seems to be a trend that H and I resort to email. We both like it, at least to initially discuss something, because we both can state things more objectively in email - or in writing - than talking.

I did tell H I was having triggers yesterday, and I thought it out carefully before telling him.

Here's my issue with talking to H (talk OR email): every time I tell him I am triggering or that I need to discuss my feelings with him, he always come back with his "stuff." That's not what I need when I am triggered! If he has "stuff" then he should address it when he's having it - not when I bring up that I'm feeling sad. Is that wrong of me to think that way? It's not that I feel he's being defensive - OK, sometimes I think he is, but that he wants to make sure I know I have faults too, or something. I don't know.

Example: I told him yesterday about triggers from reading the book. Instead of getting comforted, guess what I got? I got SOME support, but then a paragraph about how he felt I spent too much money at Christmas and it made him stressed.

OK: he certainly had the right to express what he saw as IB from me. I get that. (Although, we discussed Christmas spending together, each step along the way, but that's another discussion.) Even if I HAD committed a LB, he should talk to me about that when it happens or whatever, NOT when I am triggering!

SO: I am left with feeling that either he just comes up with something negative about me because I am talking about being upset... or he is waiting until I bring up something so he has a chance to discuss his issues too. Either way, it's not the way it should go! When I am triggering, I need comforting; it's not the time to discuss issues. That's another time. Sure, I was not perfect in our marriage and had my 50% to deal with in terms of why our marriage got to where it was - and him having the affair. But dang - an affair violates SO much within a person... it is BEYOND tit for tat, in my opinion.

This is something that has always bothered me in our marriage, come to think of it. Nothing can EVER be just about me or my feelings. That's why I avoided talking with him about things for so many years. I never wanted to get into those fights of escalation. You know, "Well YOU did this, and I wouldn't have done that if you hadn't of..." It's not productive. If he has issues with me, he should come to me with them when it's appropriate and not wait until I have something to say, right?

Anyway... I'm totally off track now, but it's something that needs addressing - along with triggers.

If you have any good tried and true trigger-fighters, I could use some ideas!!!

My H likes gaming too, HHH. He's doing it right now, in fact, lol. He plays with our sons - so I don't mind it. There was a time when I did, because it's ALL he did, but not anymore.

Usually I have plenty of schoolwork to keep my mind busy. Right now, being on break, I don't have that. I have plenty of housework to do - but that doesn't really keep my mind busy. Underwater basketweaving??? lol

Hmmm....maybe I'll actually start playing my piano again!

BTW, I trigger about SF during SF too at times - certainly NO fun!!!! And hard to stop!

Sunny, I keep a quick list in my head for dips and triggers;

1) Are we getting enough UA time?

2) Are my most important EN's being met?

3) Is she managing her LB's?

4) How am I meeting her needs?

5) Am I avoiding LB's?


Now, you will notice that UA is right at the top; it is THE SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT CONCEPT. A, no A, if UA isn't met, you can both end up miserable.

As BSs, we tend to "feel" that waning LB$ balance a lot sooner, and off we go into trigger-land. The FWS? They are strange folks. From what I have observed at home, and here, a REPENTANT WS will easily achieve a soaring LB$ balance. They are like cancer survivors, because they look at things from a "second/last chance perspective. Our view is a little darker.

Now, 1-3 are there because you want to evaluate your Husband's balance. It will hemorrhage Love Units constantly due to his infidelity. So you have to be vigilant with those 3 - that way, when a trigger hits, your balance isn't so devastated that you slip into withdrawal.

The last 2 are to ensure that you maintain your balance with him.


Now, on the issue of talking or e-mauling LB behaviors; I am a strong advocate of regular use of the ENQ and LBQ. Up to weekly at first... Then monthly... Then as needed.

If he has to fill his out BEFORE he sees yours, and vice-versa, it should help eliminate that tit-for-tat feeling. That will help each of you from feeling at odds with each other.

I'm sorry to post and run, SunnyD, especially not having read all of this thread, but this jumped out at me.

I've heard Dr Harley say that a spouse should NOT mention triggers. He described it as coming under the category of talking about the affair, or reminding the other spouse of a something they did wrong in the past, which is always a bad idea. He was asked "what if the BS is upset right in front of the WS's face, and the WS can see that something is wrong, and asks? What should the BS say? What about radical honesty?" and he said, basically, to say nothing. The BS could say "nothing; I'm okay", and the WS should try and accept that and not push it.

He was very clear on the need NOT to talk about the trigger. I think he implied that if the WS found the BS in tears, or the BS burst into tears right in front of the WS unexpectedly, then nothing could be done about that, but as for talking about it, if you can control it, then don't do it.

I think the same would apply to writing down triggers in notebooks and discussing them later; it should not be done.

I must admit that I found that quite startling to hear, but I do accept it now that I can see the benefits in my own marriage, and I thought I'd pass it on to you.

You know, that's a great way to handle the discussions: do the questionnaires on a regular basis and discuss. That definitely WOULD eliminate the tit-for-tat feeling!

I like the running list idea too: get something stable in the brain to think on that is productive and not just sinking into sadness or anger.

Thank you - these are great suggestions! It's always hard when you get emotional to think through the reasonable steps that should be done.

I agree, UA time is of the utmost importance! I even mentioned that I trigger when H and I are not together - not when we are. Of course, he HAS to work, lol, but I just bring it up to say that the closer you feel to one another, the less you feel badly about the past.

I appreciate your thoughts on this, Sugar Cane. I must admit, I need to research this because it certainly seems to go against the grain of Open and Honesty. For the past year I've gotten advice that while I shouldn't bring up the affair, I needed to let my H know when I needed his support (due to triggers) and to teach him how to help me. Hmmm... much to think about there.

Of course, I am not questioning what you are saying - if that's what Dr. H said, that's what he said. I know you wouldn't say so if he didn't. I'm just taken back by it.

I'll admit - I don't see how that is at all fair to the faithful spouse. I am certainly an advocate of not beating up the FWS because that will not bring them closer to you. Trying to "punish" them for what they did certainly may make the FBS feel better, but at the detriment of the marriage relationship. But... there are consequences for actions. One of the consequences of having an affair is that you tore the heart out of your loved one - and it's your responsibility to help repair that, is it not? How is a FWS supposed to know the best way to do so if a FBS doesn't guide them? And why should the FBS have to suffer in silence?

I don't know. Seems strange to me. I can see why it would be huge love withdrawals to constantly be bringing it up or doing so in a poor manner.

Well, it certainly is something to think about!

My problem is that I've always kept things in and never expressed my feelings. I finally learn to do so and then learn I'm not supposed to.

Just when I think I am getting good at this stuff I learn that I still have a lot to learn! LOL

Maybe the aforementioned notebook was more about struggles within the marriage and not triggers as such. ???

I sympathise entirely with your reaction to this, Sunny. I have not been a model BS at all, and the recovery programme goes against my instincts entirely!

I think the answer to how a FWS is supposed to help a BS without guidance is that:

He or she would not be doing it without guidance. The BS has given the FWS a list of ENs, which is reviewed whenever the needs change. If you needs hugs 30 times per day, phone calls four times a day and conversation for an hour every day, then that is what the FWS must provide. A BS's ENs might be heightened after an affair, but meeting them is the FWS's job (and vice versa). The FWS takes guidance from the BS on that.

This is within the context of following Dr H's programme in which the FWS provides Just Compensation. The ultimate guidance is that the programme provides a loving, happy marriage for both spouses.

I've just remembered something else Dr H said in that discussion: that there is no point talking about the affair. Nothing can be done about it. You can't resolve it. You can't go back in time and put it right. Bringing it up is simply bringing up something horrible that cannot be undone, so don't talk about it, and that includes triggers. The whole talk was about discussing triggers, so he did not just mean talking about the affair history in general.

I will write to him on the private forum and get his words in writing, and copy them to you. It will take me a day or two because of New Years (and I'm sure he is busy too!) but I will do this. I'd hate to give you incorrect advice.

I love posting from my phone, autocorrect makes interesting substitutions... E-mauling Love Busters... Fitting!

SC and SDIT,
The notebook was an easy way to get off my chest what had zinged me, but never with the goal of re-hashing the A or re-opening the wounds. Writing it down, and having the bride read/react to it was cathartic and cleansing. One I remember was explaining that driving past the boat-landing had bothered me quite a bit. Her answer was perfect to re-setttle my outlook.

I'm looking at the book now (it hasn't been moved in over a year, and the look on bride's face until I explained what I was doing was.....unpleasant), and I'm rather surprised to discover it is roughly 60 - 40 toward things that triggered HER, not me. So obviously it was not geared to sticking it in her eye, in any way.

Remember, too, we did 90% of the recovery without MB, so if it were something that was supposed to be harmful, I guess we were too ignorant to realize that!

(BTW: We just decided to burn it in the fireplace tonight. How's that for an interesting development?)

Well - I'm glad, NG, that the discussion has helped further your developments! and I see your point about the notebook

Thanks, SC - it DOES make sense - the way you put it.

3H: I noticed the emauling - and laughed to myself!
LOL

I'm getting ready for a nice, family-oriented New Year's Eve! I TRULY appreciate you all giving me such good advice when it is the holidays. I needed it.

I hope you all have a very blessed and happy 2012!!!!!

Looking forward to learning more in the new year.

NG, what you did in the past was a thousand times better than my achievements! I am in no position to criticise anyone's past behaviour.

I am only passing on what I have heard Dr Harley say on this. I wouldn't want to see a poster doing what I or anyone else did, if Dr Harley has said "DON'T DO THAT" - even if that solution actually helped a poster. It might well be counter-productive for other posters, and indeed, Sunny shows how uncomfortable her H becomes when she talks about her triggers.

My instinct - in fact my past practice - has been to say "tough! you caused this, now you'll have to live with the consequences!" - but making the WS suck it up and face the BS's grief does not work, not if the goal is to have a happy marriage. I've found that out through trial and error.

Sigh. I wish Dr Harley was wrong on this, dammit.

Well, NG actually nailed the key term here, and acknowledging that, Dr. Harley isn't alone in his opinion.

The key term is *drumroll please*.... Catharsis.

Catharsis has a long history, but in terms of getting beyond emotions, has proven to be a failure under rigorous study.

In other words, when you wish to read catharsis, don't.

A quick google search will likely bring up the articles on said studies.

BTW, SDIT, TSO was A-OK! - NG

Catharsis...hmmm...interesting topic. I'm going to look up those studies!

SC: I wish Dr. H was wrong too - darn it - but he probably isn't. LOL

NG...Glad you enjoyed TSO!! I bought the dang CD's and DVD! lol

WE're going to see them in their Beethoven special in Spring!

I remember the radio show in which Dr. Harley was discussing how to handle the triggers that make us sad/angry. He said not to bring them up and that when we feel badly about the affair, the BS should go to their spouse and ask for something specific, like a hug or a kiss or to be held. If the FWS asks what's wrong, the BS is supposed to stick to something like "I'm feeling a little down." Supposed to leave it at that.

The truth about reminiscing, whether it's over good things or bad, is that it really does bring the past into the present. So when we talk about wonderful experiences, we can almost feel like we're experiencing it all over again. We can remember so many details and delight in them, and those are really fun discussions.

But the same thing happens when we talk about the painful experiences of our lives. We can remember all the vivid details. I remember a goodbye that occurred between my father-in-law and daughter when she was little and we lived in Germany, and he had to fly home the next day. When I told people about that, it brought tears to my eyes for the next few years.

What Dr. H. recommends to recovering couples is very hard to do, but it's the best way to heal from the pain. Not talking about it is to keep that awful thing where it belongs, in the grave, buried.

I am glad that I got the gist of it right. Thanks, LongWay!

I have never kept a note of what is discussed in each radio show, with the dates. Some people do this, and it would be perfect if one of them showed up here and posted the link!

I like this approach. It shows trust also because the BS is still having confidance in the WS and limiting the exchange of painful past triggers conversations. Lets face it, if we are honest, we had the painful discussion and shared the pain allready. Time to move on, live life, and forgive also as I am sure we all need at one time or another. If WS is demonstrating love then in time they should be forgiven, actions will heal much more than words, and they make larger clearer sounds also.

Of course any comment from me would not be complete without my relating DR Hs long time experience with drug and alcohol counselling and how relevent his learning/teaching in that field is to a clean and sober life in the real world. Clean, honest, and a realistic outlook with to our human frailties and weaknesses that come naturally with these weak frames.

Of course now, dealing with a wayward, can be compared to dealing with a drunk, addict, or anyone enslaved to thier emotions. Credit where credit is due is important, and a nessesary part of the healing process. If we don't seek to heal both parties in the marriage, then there is no marriage, it is simply a business arrangement, with rules and regulations, that by most standards, we wish we could get out of.

How does a wayward, a drunk, an addict overcome the addiction? Well its not jail. Oh sure how many people become clean while in jail, and then fall again once they come out? Many I am afriad..The same can be said of a marriage that does not have love in it. Such is why we must fall in love and stay in love. The addict that gets straight in jail and stays straight is a humble person who looks for help, understanding they are weak and were fooled by the worse trickster enemy they know, themselves. They become broken inside and seek out help, just like many who are recovering.

What do they seek? They seek love. From the addict to the wayward, that is what we seek, and with that power in our lives, we can overcome anything. To be loved just as we are, with all our warts and blemishes, scars and damage, failures and insecurities, well...who would love us if they really knew us?

God would/does, and if you like the politically correct version, we can call God Truth and consequences instead, but for the sake of keeping it simple I will call Him/It God. God even respects us and trusts us enough to kick our butts directly when we screw up, and expects us to straighten out or suffer the consequences, yes, the consequences are also a gift to us, sorta like a trip to the woodshed or a Holy 2X4 aside the head. Yep, it builds character, or as I used to say, makes you into one....

But that magic of being loved, should be celibrated, and I think a repentant WS could see that also, and at some point say,"Wow honey, thanks for kicking my butt and making me acountable, I almost lost everything that is really important to me, including all that makes me who I am.., I am so lucky to have you".. Recovered couples should look at themselves as being blessed, not cursed for there foolish mistakes. Failure is part of learning, and how you handle your failures shows what your made of..

Grats to all recovered couples, who have the strength to love and accept love, and the meekness to learn, we are allways learning..and yeah we need instruction

Very beautifully put, CP! You're absolutely right. Whatever the pain suffered, BOTH parties can experience greater love because of the forgiveness shown as well as a good straightening out.

LongWay, it is good to understand a little more behind why to not bring up triggers. The good news for me is, while I did bring up triggering last week, I have not done so much of the recovery period. I'm glad Sugar Crane brought it to my attention and you added a bit more.

I guess the past really can be recalled, for better or worse, fairly easily at times. I understand it must be frustrating for the FWS. They can't undo what's been done. And really, it gives power to the affair partner to recall it all once again.

So...I'll just learn to express needs without relating it to the past.

H and I had 6 hours of GREAT UA time today as well as many hours this weekend.

What I wrote to you about the memories of the past, both good and bad, I also write to myself.

I did a really lousy job of following Dr. H's advice during the first year of recovery. I did keep my mouth shut some of the time, but I really let FWH have it with both barrels at other times.

It was really amazing to me just how painful talking about the A and my own pain became. And the strange thing to me was that talking about it never made it better. It just kept bringing it to the forefront of my mind, and there the pain would linger.

The more I write to others, the more I remind myself....

Sunny:

I go away for a week and BAM! Traffic soars on your thread. You obviously brought up a great point about triggers, which we both know I just had a bad one.

I do believe this concept -- of not dwelling or discussing triggers -- will be a be a good one to work on for 2012.

And if successfully mastered, will make the new year all the better.

Glad you got GREAT UA time this weekend. We did, too!

Cheers,
SP

LOL, Sweet Pea...I know!

I'm glad I brought up the trigger discussion. Hopefully, we can all be helped by having some clarity on this issue!

I don't know about you, but I'm glad to be moving on to 2012!

Glad you had some great time with your hubby. It's much needed for me after the holiday season. I always get a bit of post-Christmas blues. Part of the problem is, I'm so busy before Christmas I don't have time to enjoy it. Then, after Christmas, I do - and it's OVER! I need to think of ways to plan better next year I guess!

Planning ... remember: God laughs when we make plans. LOL!

I actually LOVE post holidays. I get totally stressed out before the holidays (never get everything done that I want to do to make it extra special for everyone), and then I get motivated AFTER the holidays to start tackling projects/chores/get organized.

Though, if I keep reading/posting on MBs, I won't get anything done!

Back to triggers, though. I'm really of a mind, that I need to get them under control, and simply seek the hug/kiss/squeeze that I need to get through them. I am going to use a visualization that my therapist gave me: of putting this "bad" book, the one that's filled with bad memories, back on the shelf in a high corner of the bookshelf. And take out a "good" book, one of a recent good memory with FWH.

So ... do you really think you'll write triggers down in a log? Hmmmm. I can't say as I'm disciplined enough!

Cheers,
SP

LOL - Yeah - planning never works out quite right, does it?!

I like your visualization technique. Think I'm gonna steal that one!

I don't know now about logging triggers. You know, it might still be very cathartic, even if I don't share them with H. Getting them out onto paper may help me not dwell.

Have you ever written a long email (or post) and then deleted it accidentally? Then - when you go to rewrite it - you can't think of half of what you said? Sometimes, out of the brain, onto the computer (or paper) frees up the mind!

Just a theory I'm contemplating.

And I hear ya about being on here, btw. I'm SUPPOSED to be cleaning house at this very moment!!! :0

Although....I did start exercising again today, so I HAVE done something productive. It wasn't necessarily by choice. My son forget something important at home and I literally had to run it up to school. (I don't have a car today.) LOL

One more thought, then off to the kitchen for me....

Constant: I wanted to let you know I have read your last post over several times. I'm going to print it out. It really made me think about love, forgiveness, and even the heart of God as I progress in this recovery journey....

Just wanted to let you know how thought-provoking it truly was to me. Thanks!

Hi Sunny!! Just dropping in to say hey and tell you that was an awesome post to piecesofme! I hope she catches on soon!!

Happy new year, friend!

Thanks! I hope she does too! Sometimes people need to understand why they need to act quickly. They're so afraid of "doing something wrong" that they don't do anything - and THAT is more costly than any mistake you can make in a lot of cases!

Maybe I should go back and read the entire thread.

Sometimes people need to be smart and get their ducks in a row (esp. financially). Other times, they need a reason to act - to understand that inaction is costing them precious moments of resolve. I personally believe the greatest influence a BS has is right after admission of the affair or outing of it. Once a WS knows you know - and esp. after they admit to it - you start losing respect that is much needed to motivate a WS to do the right thing!

Happy New Year to you as well! I have a feeling 2012 is going to be GREAT!

Quick update...nothing much to report except that things are going well. H and I decided to plan a trip for our anniversary! It's this Thursday but we have to wait until the 18th to go. 4 nights away and I can't wait!!!

It's always fun to have something to look forward to.

Lots of need-meeting going on in the Sunny house!

GET A ROOM !!!!

Well...I didn't say it was THAT kind of need-meeting, BUT.... that's workin out pretty well too. LOL

Hysterical bonding... The contest of champions!

Hysterical bonding... The contest of champions!

Where the best matches all end in ties!

Yep! Not for lack of trying though!

Ya'll are too funny!

Every retort I can think of right now has too much innuendo built in, so I will just refrain.
LOL

nooooooooo

Just do it!

Pep, are you suggesting that hysterical bonding is just about victory and not finding a "new balance"?

SO .... wait.....we're going from Nike to New Balance!!!

HA HA HA!

Where's the drum set icon???

"Just Do It" sounds about right for hysterical bonding!
lol

Hmmmmmmmmmm

Trying to come up with a non-mod-edit way of saying this ......

If memory serves (16 years ago) .....
I decided one way to wipe the memory of OW clean off my husband was to **** those memories clean off.
I went about this task with great gusto and no small amount of sadism.

As in .... "Oh yeah? Well, try and ignore THIS, buster!"

It was like stuffing an entire Boston Cream Pie down a diabetic's throat. Followed by a giant 12" chocolate-chip cookie.
"Take THAT!"



I'm certain I could not do that again.
Exhausting.

LOL, Pepper! I can sooooo appreciate that! It's like make-up SF amplified 10 times!

Two things about your post, Pep:

1) Trying to "overload" the husband with massive offers/opportunities for...you know...should be the preferred strategem of women in resolving ANY marital issues caused by husbandly errors, assuming they're physically able to hold up to the...demands.

2) Do you mind if I have my bride contact you for guidance on this while I go spill bleach on her favorite black jeans?

NG .... go to your room.

OR....try a different strategy yourself, NG. Go buy her a stunning pair of gemstone earrings, bring them home - tell her you HAD to buy them for her because they reminded you of her eyes the first time you kissed....

Trust me: you won't have to get out the bleach!!!

Sounds like a winner

Whats all this talk about SF anyways? Thats non negoitable isn't it? After the earrings...the guy has to put out.

That's right! LOL

Tomorrow is our 21st anniversary! I'm very excited about our celebration trip we have planned for next week!

Tomorrow we are going out to dinner, but it won't be a huge deal since we're doing the trip. We're also not exchanging gifts.

However...I would like to do something nice for H. I mean, guys always have the "card & flower" option. What do women have?! Well...I guess we always have "card & SF" but that's a given anyway, right? LOL

Anyway...I'd really like to think of something clever to do. Any thoughts?

Okay - no kidding around now.....

After dinner, find someplace and go dancing. Not a disco environment; someplace with a band playing romantic dance music, or even that Texas two-step stuff, when you hold (or at least touch) each other in time with the music.

Occasionally, for no reason, I'll put on my bride's favorite songs (no specific titles to be shared here - too private - but think Fred Astaire tunes) and twirl her around our kitchen. The affection is palpable.

Anyway, that's what I got. I'll now return to my normal insouciant persona.

(But I don't have pierced ears.....)

Hmmmm... that's a very romantic idea, NG!

Who knew?!!!

Who knew?!!!

The only person who really matters......

My husband went to the mic during a karaoke party and dedicated a Sinatra song to me.

The Way You Look Tonight


I will never forget this moment.
Mr Pep has a wonderful voice.

Love bank bigger than trillions.

LOL!!!!!

Well....that's something!!!

Awwwwww.....Pepper......that's just..... OMG......BEYOND the moon and back deposits!!!!!!

LOVE that song - and what a special moment for you!

My H has never been a traditional romantic, but he's learning. More importantly, he WANTS to learn.

The crooners rock. Get a connick cd or sinatra.. My fav is nat king cole.

So, what is it to be? Singing? or Dancing?

(And SDIT, if you revert to the Texan fallback of "go to the local stock-car track", we will NOT be happy!)

I was gonna suggest a monster truck rally, but now....

HA HA...Ya'll are just too funny!!!! Shoulda made it a trip to the shooting range and you'd have been closer to target!

Hee Hee...see what I did there! I'm just pure comedic genius, LOL

Actually....we had a bit of everything! Plus...a little bit of reminiscing didn't hurt. H even took the day off work. But... that was because we had a hard night with S16 last night. That really could have turned our anniversary into a nightmare (explain in a moment) but we didn't let it.

Long story short...S16 was upset about some things at school. When we were talking to him about it, S16 blurted out (among other things) that he didn't respect H because he cheated on me!

S16 is a VERY respectful young man. He had some triggers this week, I believe, about the whole ordeal because of a school assignment.

Anyway, H was very upset by what S16 said. At first I think he wanted to blame me because I told the kids about his affair. But, we were able to keep the A talk to a minimum and move past it.

Now - we are doing our "big" anniversary celebrating next week, on our trip, but we had a VERY nice day. NO guns, monster trucks, or stock cars!! LOL

Footnote: I DID learn how to shoot recently and it turns out this city girl from Florida is a GREAT shot!!!!

LOL.. You must be a Miami girl!

I have a secret I need to confess... I've always wanted to go to a monster truck rally.

That said, on a serious note, keep an eye out for triggers with the kids as recovery progresses. I did a horribly bad job recognizing them in my own kids as they tend to internalize. I was over 2 years into recovery before I started looking for their triggers and there was a lot I could do to have avoided them. They are hit with the affair just as hard, but different if that makes sense.

CV

I've actually been to a monster truck rally! LOL It was YEARS ago though - in Florida, not Texas. Go figure. And nope - not Miami - the opposite: Jacksonville.

For the most part it seems that the kids really don't want to talk about 2010 any longer. However, they obviously trigger too. My older son is one who always talks about what's bothering him, so I don't worry about him so much. The younger one, though, is a completely different story. He is as tight lipped as one can get. I'm going to take him to lunch today to see if I can make sure he's OK. Our daughter, being away at college, is kind of in between. She'll talk if she feels the need, but she tends to like just to forget about stuff that is unpleasant.

Jacksonville? well it all makes sense now!

I started doping this with the kids too. Get them alone and don't bring up the A itself, just how they are feeling about things. They have often brought the A up themselves after a bit of talking and wanted to discuss things.

My youngest is the one who wants to talk in depth the most. But you have to pry a bit. He gets triggered and starts to get angry.

Usually I ask "you ok? tell me what's going on" and after a bit of talking and a lot of listening, a door will open.

I talked with the kids about dealing with triggers. This seems to have helped too. What they are and how to recognize them.

They can keep Jacksonville now, CV! lol My parents are still there but I tell ya - it's not a place I'd want to live now! I shouldn't say that: I'm sure some areas are good - and some bad - just like anywhere else.

The thing I worry about most with the boys, esp. the youngest, is the respect thing. It's hard for a young man who looks up to his father so greatly (as S16 did) to see him fall from grace - and so hard! You can't truly undo that damage. You can grow from it and learn a lot of life lessons, but you can't ever go back to thinking of the man as near infallible. It's also easy to use that as an excuse for your own mistakes. (Which is somewhat what S16 did on Wed.)

It truly blindsided my husband while he was wayward that the kids felt so strongly against him. He felt so "right" at the time that he just knew they'd "understand" that he needed to get away from me... He felt I had to have lied to the kids about him to turn them so far against him. It wasn't the case. All 3 of the kids did not care about anything I had supposedly done to "make" him want to be unfaithful. (In my case, I had been quite depressed for a few years pre-A: causing LB's, etc...) In fact, they were even more upset because I had owned all my mistakes and was diligently seeking help for my depression and changed so much! What did H do during this? Sought out an affair while I was trying to save our family! That's the way they saw it, with or without my input.

Anyway... I thought the kids just wanted to put this behind them. But... there may be more lingering issues than I realized.

A thought has hit me tonight and I am struggling with how to deal with it. It isn't a trigger - but I am concerned (somewhat) about a mindset.

I mentioned the Wed. night blow up by S16. After he had stormed upstairs after all he had to say, H said something that is now weighing on my mind. The reason it is just hitting now is because at first, the focus was on S16 and making sure he was OK. Then, yesterday the focus was all positive because it was our anniversary, etc...

I don't want to make something out of nothing, so I need help in dealing with this: what to say, if anything, about it - or whether it's best to let it go.

The statement H made after S16 stormed upstairs was something like this: "If you said anything to the boys that you felt was true at the time but really wasn't, maybe you need to clarify that with them." I then said that I didn't know what he was referring to. He explained that he was talking about my telling the boys that "If he (H) *wanted* to be home, he would be..." (For anyone who doesn't know my original story, H actually bugged the house so he overheard conversations I had! Long story.)

I told him that all of the issues were cleared up with the boys a long time ago. I further stated that the kids were well aware that I told him he had to leave - and were in agreement - since he was involved in an affair. I added, "besides - S16 isn't saying he disrespects you for leaving, he stated he disrespects you for cheating. There's a difference." To which, H just sort of nodded.

Anyway, as the evening progressed and we tried to talk to S16, I can't say I noticed H really saying how sorry he was for what he did - or any of that - to S16. Oh, he made statements affirming S16's right to express his feelings - but honestly? I'm wondering if he is feeling that what S16 said was just an excuse to throw the attention of himself. You know, thinking S16 doesn't really feel that way.

To some degree, I can accept that. Most of the time S16 is FINE - MORE than fine with H and their relationship is very good. However, I think he was triggered...and we all know what happens in triggers: your mind goes right back to that ugly place.

Anyway, I'm pondering H's mindset. I can't help but wonder (due to the statements of Wed night) if he still justifies what he did rather than understanding how terribly wrong it was. You know, saying that *I* need to clear things up and such.

Then, as nature usually does - one thought led to another. Perhaps all the talk in the books about "anyone can cheat" and "it's because needs are not met or lovebusters are occurring in abundance" that he still views this as my fault. Now, I KNOW Dr. H does not excuse infidelity. But - one must admit, the reason his plan actually goes over well with FWS's is because the finger isn't just pointed at them, saying how bad they are. Not saying that's a bad thing, of course, because the program works. Right now it's just bugging me a bit that my H may be using that to ease his conscience about what he did. Moreover, making it just as much my fault, in his mind.

On that part I may be over-thinking it. But - I'm not crazy about the comments about his leaving and that being my deal. Oh - and he also said that "it affected how HE felt about the KIDS." Really??? OK...maybe that's being Open and Honest....but it's not very mature. (You'll all be glad to know that I did not react badly to that statement. I am here - right now - but I did not then.) Come on: he was an adult, they are teens....15, 17, and 19 at the time - and had discovered their father was cheating on their mother. They'd also seen for MONTHS that I had been making all kinds of positive changes while he worsened... And their reactions made HIM feel poorly towards THEM???? I mean - wow - it's something that he's willing to admit that. But...nothing in that statement said anything to the effect of "at that time."

SO: does he still feel poorly about them or does he excuse it away as that being MY fault because how I presented information to them? Either way - it is faulty thinking and does not show the mindset a recovered wayward should have - in my opinion.

How do I broach this subject? Obviously, it's all about "then" and "then" is supposed to stay in the past... But it bothers me because if he still has that mindset...what does that say about his ability to stay on the path of recovery?

We all worry that "they did it once - will they do it again" but we lay down the groundwork for better marriages, and entrust it to the process. Do I continue that without having my above fears clarified???

Hmmmm....

OK...after a nice night with H and a good night's sleep...none of the above seems that important. Strange, huh?

But...I wonder if it should.

Maybe I'm just thinking too much!
LOL

SDIT,

You have a son who was repulsed by his father's actions and is having some trouble reconciling with him!

I had a daughter who, on d-night, sided with her mother's unfortunate choices, and ultimately was the proximate cause of my...removal.

Wanna trade problems? (Didn't think so! )

Yours has an obvious solution, but you cannot effectuate it. FWH is going to have to have a man-to-man with him. It will not be pleasant, which is why it has not yet happened. Net/net, the initiating speech will be:

Son, I bleeped up. I was wrong, I hurt your mother, and I hurt our family.
I'm sorry to all of you, but it's now in the past. What do you want to say to me?

That last question is going to be brutal to hear answered. Oh, well, sux to have been wayward.....

NG is right. And remember this is going to be a process, not a one time act. Before he does this however, I would sit with hubby and ask him your question from the night before...

"honey, I was thinking last night about ____. It seems that you feel ________. Am I wrong about this? I want to understand better."

CV

Boy, I feel for you, NG! NO - I wouldn't want to trade! All 3 of my kids were very supportive of me. My 2 sons especially held H's feet to the fire in the crucial moments! DD was away at college. My youngest sent a text to H that shocked us all, quite frankly, and made no bones about where he stood on the cheating issue. (This was after I'd had H move out.) H had been texting the kids, wanting to talk to them. S16 (the 15) texted him back and said, "Congratulations, Dad. While mom has been doing her best to save your marriage you've been out ----ing some sl--. In my mind, you have two choices: stop your affair, commit to our family and do what's right or stay the he-- out of my life!"

That's not word for word, but close to it. S17 was just as strong, if not more so, with his dad.

All the while, H just knew they would "understand."

But, yes... H has apologized to the kids for what happened and said he was wrong. I know he would like once to be enough. Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way.

I spoke with S16 yesterday at lunch. He is not the talkative type. I think he's over the other night and would like for it to just go away. (He's a lot like his dad!)

I encouraged him to talk to us about things that bother him - that he doesn't have to keep it inside.

H was good to tell S16 on Wed. night that he had the right to say what he said - and if that's how he truly felt, they needed to talk.

Yeah - it really does suck to be a wayward, I'd imagine! Sucks to be a BS too, but just in a different way.

That's a good way to put it, CV. I just wasn't sure if what, if any, conversation I should have with H about it since the whole "what to say about triggers" discussion upthread.

You're right: it's all a process! It'd be nice if everything could just be said once and feelings just magically neutralized, but life just doesn't happen that way, does it?!

In a way, I think BW's have it harder than us BH's. I think men in general tend to (not be less emotional, but) internalize. Men in general tend to not want to deal with emotions other than our own. I dunno if that makes sense or not. We have to learn how to do this and frankly, if we were raised in "manly" homes, it is quite difficult.

A for instance: My house growing up was male dominated (to say the least). Dad ruled the roost and ruled with an iron hand. Weakness was for girls and sailors. A few weeks ago, we were sitting around the kitchen table for bible study at mom and dad's and dad said "You know what? I hate all this feministic crap about telling people you love them! I never once told my kids I loved them when they were growing up and they never questioned it... Did you?"

Everyone at the study went silent and looked at me. I said "yeah dad, we all questioned it at one time or another, we were just afraid to be weak in front of you."

Anyway, I wonder if this is what your H may be experiencing in some way... A need to feel or appear stronger maybe?

CV

Yeah, sorry Son and saying that if he has any questions as to why he was so foolish, please ask, is probably the safest road to take. Yes, it might take time and years for questions to develop, and H should be allways available for them.

We can be really caught up in our mistakes, and forget we are human. H was human when he strayed, and humble when he admitted it and changed his behavior.

"Do as I say and not as I do" does come into play in life sometimes, and the pain this caused you all should be enough to warn off the same thinking and behavior in the kids. Don't be afraid to show the scars, and attempt to warn your kids of the dangers.

You know, to some degree that's it: the need to hold on to some pride and maybe manliness. I mean, on one hand, H has never had a problem with being affectionate and loving towards the kids - not even the boys - not even when they got older. I love you's and hugs have always flowed freely in our household. BUT...on the other hand, part of H's issues come because H didn't really have a true dad. His step-dad wasn't much of one, that's for sure. So, he's never had a dad to lean on through thick and thin or to gain real identity through. My dad loves him like his own son, but we haven't lived near my parents in 20 years.

But - just as you mentioned - H really doesn't talk much about feelings (like most men) unless he is made to do so.

Truly, the biggest thing with H and the way he was raised is that it is quite normal to just cut people off if things get hard or inconvenient. His own mother has never even laid eyes on our 16 year old! Never really even inquires about our kids. Heck, H was a product of an affair on his mother's part himself. Doesn't know his biological father because his mom cheated on the man he called dad when he was young - who is listed on his birth certificate. She later left him for his step-father, who cheated on her and subsequently left.

Pure craziness.

Very true!

I have been very open with the kids with my own mistakes throughout all this.

H has even shown the boys HNHN and told them it had a lot of great information that he wished he would've known years ago!

I worry at times: boys with dads who cheat are more likely to cheat themselves later - despite what they suffered because of it. It's one of those phenomenons just like children of parents that are divorced being more likely to divorce themselves. You'd think they be more careful to avoid the pitfalls of this crap! BUT...that's not the way it goes.

Education is the only thing I know to put in place to stop the cycle!

Well that didn't happen with me.

My Dads parents disowned my Dad when he strayed, and my Mom was salt of the earth, never slept with any other man till this day.

I had plenty of chances, was rugged enough and good looking enough, but just couldn't cheat, even after cheated upon at 19 and having an OC born to my wife. Funny, she was the one who could not handle it or seem to love him.

Even when I thought it would feel good to cheat, to get even, to fix something broken in me, I just could not do it.

Its an individuals choices that make them who they are, and that is the lesson we want to teach our young boys, that to avoid hurting others is honorable at all times. There is never an excuse.

I would bet that the love and concern your H is showing them will mean more to them than any affair activity. Love is like that

Good for you, CP! I know some people feel it's a free pass if they've had it done to them. And you're absolutely right: there never is an excuse. My boys have heard it enough from me, that's for sure. Hopefully, the are getting the message loud and clear from H as well.

The good news is, I truly believe they know they are loved, by both of us. They've learned we are fallible, but hopefully one day they can be inspired to know you CAN learn from your mistakes and do better.

Very well-articulated. This really hits home.

IAin'tReady...I'm glad you got something productive out of that post.

It can be hard to sort out all this stuff, for sure. I'm so thankful for this site and being able to work it out here!

Since I'm working things out, perhaps I can pick some brains.

I don't have a long time to explain the situation in detail as I am headed off to class. Then, I'm getting ready for our anniversary trip. We leave tomorrow night and will be gone through Sunday evening. I start classes today, so, busy day or so for me!

Now that I'm thinking on it, maybe not sharing details is best in this scenario; maybe the details are irrelevant to the overall strategy here. Just a thought...

SO, how do you handle it when you're spouse commits a big lovebuster, not done on purpose, and spouse KNOWS ...and feels bad...but can't do anything to undo it? This lovebuster cost you something personal - something you can't replace materially but more importantly, sentimentally?

I feel like a big baby. I need to get over this before our trip - it has kind of put a damper on it for me.

H has apologized and I just need to forgive and try not to make him feel bad about it even though I feel bad myself. I've done my best to not point fingers or dwell on it. I can't help but be sad though.

Why is it every time things are going well SOMETHING has to sneak in to try and ruin it?!

Not sure if this is a help or not since I'm not sure what the LB was... But let me try...

You might say "hon, I'm not finger pointing or blaming, just want you to know that I'm still hurting over X and wanted you to know. I'm not sure what I need right now... Maybe reassurance.. Can you help? I want to go into the trip with a clear head"

CV

Thanks, CV. Thankfully the LB has nothing to do with the affair. Of course, it's not really something he can give me reassurance for. Long story short: he has lost some very important jewelry pieces of mine in a box and they are gone for good. It is somewhat of an accident. The LB comes in because if he would have done things the way they were supposed to be done, they would not be gone. He claims he will buy me new stuff but honestly - we don't need to be spending money on that. Besides, several of these pieces were one of a kind. They weren't huge money - but enough!

The key here is that while I am allowed to be upset about it, I need to make sure he knows I love him and while it IS his fault, I am not finger pointing or looking to blame or hold over his head - or whatever.

But yes - the fact that if he would have done things correctly bothers me in the withdrawal of love units.

This sticks out to me, Sunny D.

What do you mean by this? What actually happened?

You see, when I look at this phrase, it looks to me like a...




DJ!

For illustration;

When we were first married, NGB wouldn't "allow" me to do laundry, because I did not do it the way that she thought was the "right way" to do it. She had levels of separation for whites, colors, towels, jeans, socks... whatever, that just baffled me. Because I didn't do it "her way," she figured it was best that I just don't touch laundry. Hmph. Works great until she gets mad that... I don't do laundry! O_o

The key problem there was a DJ (both ways, really). Over the years, though, she relaxed on all that separation, and now I'm glad to throw a load in whenever I see a full hamper.



So, let me ask again; what is more upsetting? The fact that the jewelry was lost, or the fact that he did things in a way you didn't like?

If he had "done things the way they were supposed to be done" and the jewelry was lost, would you be AS upset? More? Less?


Just some food for thought...

I have read Dr Harley's advice on the private forum that the one who did the "letting down" must put it right.

Now, I know that this will be hard since your H can't replace the specific jewellery, and because buying new stuff will cost money that you are reluctant to spend, so in short, I don't know HOW he can do this but my understanding is that he MUST do what he can (without committing further LBs, of course!)

I suppose that this where negotiating and brainstorming is useful. He needs to find out from you what would be acceptable and what wouldn't - like paying a lot for more jewellery. Would engraving something existing work? Would he be able to find a similar piece from the same place as the originals and have that engraved - but only one piece? (Obviously, not if it's vintage.)

Then HE needs to sort it out. Dr Harley was very clear in the case I read about - which I think was about having failed to arrange a night out for UA time - that the LB-ing spouse had to make ALL the rearrangements.

So, if you start from that principle (that your H must make up for his error), and also remember that YOU must not dwell on his mistake, because that would be an LB from you - you can find a way for H to repair his thoughtlessness.

(From what you say it WAS a mistake - but one that arose from his failure to stick to an agreement, so he is responsible for the mistake.)

Hold....

I should've explained better because the way I put it DID sound like a DJ. It wasn't. I learned a long time ago to not expect H to do things "my" way. I'm actually very good about that.

This takes a long time to explain. And, to be frank, it makes me all upset to go through the whole story again. So...the short version is that H knows he did it the wrong way and was just not organized and didn't clarify things as he was supposed to. We were in the process of reorganizing and such... had a plan of action. It wasn't that we were doing things "my way" at all!

Now, did he do this purposefully? Of course not! And I know he feels bad. He admitted it is his fault. He's done all he can... but, you know: the part of me that wants my stuff back is still aggravated, purposeful or not. And...the devil on my right shoulder says things like, "why can't he have just done things as we agreed...and my stuff wouldn't be gone!"

However...we ALL make mistakes. We all cut corners when we shouldn't thinking it's going to be fine. Then, we get bit in the hiney and realize there's a reason you do things by the letter of the law sometimes.

This is GREAT advice, Sugar, thank you!

I can see where this is the best plan of action.

I will admit, part of the whole LBing part of it is that devil I just mentioned to HHH on my right shoulder. The one who is whispering in my ear, "Sure...first you put me through hell, cheat on me, then you ditch half my jewelry... what else do you want to strip away from me?!"

I am fighting that guy!

I think our 4 days away (tomorrow night through Sun. night) will probably help A LOT with this.

I am trying to match up the lovebuster with a loss of EN.

Lets face it, I know it was just jewelry, but if he showed some disrespect for what you found important. Man would I get ticked if wife cleaned out the garage and gave away my tools!

(As a matter of fact, lost a collectors edition hunting knife cuz wife let niehbor use it to jimmey her door. That was over 28 years ago, and I still remember it. Not because of the knife, beacause of the thoughtlessness. Yes she knew I treasured it)

He is responsible for this, and in time you will forgive him, as he shows remorse and does everything he can to right the wrong. He can't minimalize it, tell you your over reacting, and jsut sweep it under the rug. (Which you have allready said he isn't).

Time will tell and work in both of your favor. A Pastor friend of mine said,"A woman can have a relationship with a salt shaker"

Of course it is what it represents, just like the Knife I lost, after I allready told her what it meant.

In the garage there is a old wooden mallet my Dad gave to me years ago. I want my Sons to have it when I am gone, I guess Men can have those relationships too.

I resent that my mechanic tools were stolen because my grandfathers S&K Metric wrenchs were in it, and I wanted my Sons to inherit them along with the tools I used to feed them when they were younger.

I understand Sunny, it what it represents, but in the end its just stuff, and because He cares about how it effects you, let that be the value of this lesson.

Hope and trust that he learned a lesson, and is thankful for you forgiveness, when it comes.

I did a similar LB a few years ago with my W. back in 04, we were moving from Va to SC so I could go to grad school. My wife had to work the day we were packing, and that left me in charge.

We literally had packed this moving van floor to ceiling, front to back. I had a few boxes left over that were marked "Christmas". Of course I didn't open them to see what was there... I knew it was Christmas stuff and knew I had already packed some Christmas stuff in there... So I called my wife and asked her what to do with them. She said if they don't look important, to send them to the dump.

So... 11 years of kid-made ornaments went to the dump because I was too dense to open the box and in too much of a hurry to look. You can imagine what happened when she found out... and then the kids found out...

CV