received "lovely" email today from OW addressed to MY H!

Marriage Builders

We received this email today adressed to my H.

He had made it VERY clear to her awhile back that ALL correspondance was to be addressed to and directed to me, his wife, from now on so he could just focus on OC and did not want to deal with OW anymore because he was getting so upset by her antics.

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It starts out reasonable enough but then.....those lovely "details" she chose to share. She knew I would obviously read this.

The problem with those details is that H had sworn a million times that OW told of pg then he never spoke to her again. He told her that night that he only wanted me and our family and not her. He did not ask her to get an abortion, throughout their final conversation she kept asking him if she should get an abortion and finally he said yes, once. He said he NEVER told her he loved her, NEVER. (he doesn't even talk like that----"baby")

I started shaking as I read this and my heart literally felt like it was going to pound out of my chest. I felt like I was taken back in time to Dday.

I called my H @ work, so upset. I just can't believe her. He laughed @ the absurdity of her "details". She has said before that he only broke up w/ her because she wouldn't have an abortion.

He said (basically) that this was the last straw and we will end all C w/ OC so that we will never have to deal with or hear from OW again. I don't know about that. He says he doesn't want to deal with this any more---ever again and look what she is doing to us or TRYING to do to us!

Our custody agreement says that "the school for now is...private school" and that "educational decisions for child will be made by both parents". It does not say that this school is their first choice.

We never agreed to this school. OW enrolled OC without H consent or knowledge. We have made it very clear that we do not like this school and do not consent to OC attendance there. We are willing to compromise and look @ other private schools if that is OW choice.

The thing is I feel I am stuck in the middle of their "stories". I want to meet w/ OW face to face w/ H and hash out this "story" of theirs. I want my H to "set her straight" if he is telling the truth. I want to see both their faces @ the same time and see their reactions to each other about their differing versions.

I feel like H would be defending me this way by telling OW she is lying and just trying to hurt me, us, our marraige and family.

H says that OW will only hurt me more. That she won't admit to lying so what will that accomplish? I said if you are telling the truth then how can she hurt me more?

The nerve of her!!!!!!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> And to be so ....ugh!!!....to try and bring up this stuff now? Maybe that is why OW is saying it...so that we will be so upset that we WILL step out of OC's life and let OW have her all to herself.

I just want to tell her off again. One time, the very first time OW and I ever "got into" it, I was apologizing, on the spot and told her ok we got it out, now I don't want you to ever bring up this stuff to me ever again, it's the past. leave it there, don't ever bring it up again!

Of course she did another time too but then we went to "counseling", yep, all 3 of us! Last summer....blah blah blah...so I did not expect her to bringing this stupid stuff up ever again. really! Funny how she throws "this stuff" in the mix when it's really about something we refuse to give her her way on!!

What should I do about this? What should we do about this? Anything? What should I think about this? How should I react?
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

I am sorry this is so long, I am just so upset!!!!!!

[ March 13, 2004, 07:51 PM: Message edited by: ktbunch ]

I am sure others will be along to give you great advice. But if this is a different school than she has been attending and you haven't agreed to it then I think you have some grounds to take to court on it. Especially since she wrote in black and white that he didn't agree...and she just enrolled her.
I agree she shouldn't be putting in personal stuff that has no bearing on the OC.
As for the he said, she said. How much would it be to get a lie detector test to get all your questions answered? Otherwise...my thoughts are if your marriage is good other than this subject-and you trust what he says regarding everything else then try to put it behind you so you can heal. She obviously was trying to get under you skin with adding those little tidbits to her email.

H had to go back to work tonight and I want to call OW soooooooooooooo bad!

Can someone remind me why this would NOT be a good idea?
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

clarification: OC is in Kindergarten. OW enrolled OC in this school w/out H knowledge or consent last year. We made it clear we did not want her in that school, we have maintained our position and OW re-enrolled OC again w/out knowledge or consent. We only found out by asking the school ourselves.

[ March 10, 2004, 09:28 PM: Message edited by: ktbunch ]

DON'T RESPOND!! Don't get sucked in. Don't wallow with the pig in the mud.

Fog, fog, fog, fog, fog, fog...

Xow is in her own little world, her own perspective, doing her own thing and isn't going to change. Leopards don't change their spots.

She will continue to do what she wants her way unless legally forced otherwise (then she'll still be passive-agressive!!). Trying to talk to her is talking to a brick wall, AND she'll enjoy the control she got by getting under your skin!!!

DON'T BOTHER.

Allow yourself your feelings--your feelings are normal and understandable, be kind to yourself--but deal with your pain without talking to her! Ultimatly, you'll never know exactly who said what, she said, he said... But she'd love to cause trouble between you, so let it go as much as possible. Recovery is paramount.

In her "right" little world, only she and H are parents of this child and you will be ignored. Our XOW is the same way. I would let your lawyer handle everything to the full extent possible. Is there any way you can use a third party contact for the small stuff, the contact outside of court?

Peace be with you,
J

KT you are soooooo much better than she is. Don't let her run your life which I think all OW try to do. Use the law. If she is in contemp then she will have to pay for your attorney as well. (thats how is in my state) They OW want the father to be there, but I think its just a control thing. Our OW wants to sit down w/ me & H thats what she told me when we ran into her at a concert. (She didn't even have tickets too) It makes me sad because these people (OW) don't get it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> Our H chose us not them, GO AWAY!!!!
GET A LIFE ! Our OW would just love for me to pick up the phone and call her, she gets a great deal of pleasure telling me if my H brought someone else home I would let him have s** in front of me. She's gross and shes lost. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> They are forever in our lives and we are going to have to be better. (Don't mean we don't want to ring their necks!!) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> But the devil gets great pleasure in watching us loose or faith, if only for a minute. I think she heard of your weekend and found away to bring you down. Thats why our OW calls on mondays after we went to the cabin. She knows there our relationship gets stronger and we get closer having time away from all of this. I can't wait till our papers are servered! She is going to flip! She doesn't want DNA, said it makes her look like a whore. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Dahhh!! I am a beleiver on what goes around comes around and I beleive I will live to see it!!

You can do two things here. Call your attorney and start fighting. If she is going against an agreed upon, legally filed document, you can beat her in court. Plus she loses her school deposit, and has to pay your legal fees. Seems like this idiot wanted the child support, but doesn't think anyone should have a call in this oc's life. WRONG. Go after her with the law.

OR

You can totally stop contact and move on with yourlife. Why put yourself through this? This woman is a loser. She has nobody and she gets her kicks out of trying to get your goat.

Just remember, your husband chose you, and that she was nothing. She wishes she was something, she wants you to think she was something, but really, once a whore.......

She does not matter. Dump the whole thing in her lap and happily move on with your life. Since you have had contact, keep a journal or something for her to give her when she is older.

At that time you can explain to her that her mother was a game player, etc.

I agree with Jenny and LynnG.

Don't get sucked in with Ow's games...my h's ex-ow mixed some truth with fibs that she told me and it was just enough to knock back Mr."T"'s and my recovery for a while (which almost ended in divorce). Don't talk to OW except for OC related things. What's past is past and there are two sides to every story.

You and H have to decide if you have the legal funds to fight the (@(@)#*@#*@^ and get what is fair and square in regards to your side with OC or just let it go and let the (*@#)(@*#& get what she wants...your money and total control of her child.

Financially Mr."T" and I couldn't fight and had no desire to, because we knew what type of "woman" (and I say that loosely of his ex-ow)she was and still is. It's best for her to raise her child in her own cesspool and not drag our familiy into it. Mr."T" pays his price financially and in other areas, so all the ow's out there can crow in satisfaction that the MM suffers just like the BS and COM.

I can't stand things like this...just another reason that I count my lucky stars and wisdom in regards to choosing NC for our family and our situation.

*diclaimer*....FOR OUR FAMILY AND SITUATION. NO SITUATION IS ALIKE!!!!

Twiisty

First, KT, your H stated that he no longer wanted contact. You have said many many times how much you regret it.

Does your H mean this seriously and is this something he has been contemplating for some time now? How close of a R is there already established between H, you, your children and OC? Would OC suffer if this relationship were to be severed, would your children suffer? I guess I am trying to see how the relationship has grown, has it blossomed is there enough love amongst everyone that the children (who matter most) and H would not be able to emotionally deal with stopping contact at this point?

If you read everything you write yourself here to those of us contemplating contact, etc. Are you sure that contact is even healthy for the OC, let alone for your family unit? I am beginning to understand, even through reading some of the opposing sites, that contact does sometime have many setbacks for both sides. As the child gets older, is she going to adopt the negativity of the OW.. is she going to feel the awkwardness between everyone, even if everyone is trying to hide it? She doesn't deserve to feel strange or have a forced relationship just as you and the kids don't.

You are all victims of a hurtful and sad situation. I guess sometimes giving it a good effort doesn't work, and cutting losses and moving on while she and your children are fairly young may be painful at first, but best for all. Out of evil sometimes the innocent will be affected even when they were not a party to evil. Look at Adam and Eve. We are after all, decendents of them and God says we all are direct "sufferers" of the temptation that they gave into.

Just food for thought.

Just like the Bible story that you or someone else gave me as as a reference. The BS tried to have a relationshp with OC, but her heart and her marriage could not withstand this pain. God sent OW and OC away to be taken care of by him, right?

I am not advocating not seeing her anymore, but just be sure that if you do continue on with this battle w/OW and OC, that it is not purely out of a "must flex muscles" towards OW and her antics involving OC. As the wonderful mother she is portraying herself to be, she should and may realize some day that she alone may be responsible if H cannot be a father to her daughter. You guys can only do so much and when it is directly hurting you this much, I dunno.. KT, I just know that I cannot and will not be able to deal with anything like this at this point in my life. I will go bullistic and you are handling it so well!!!!

Personally I would not be able to avoid replying to OW's message! I would be completely "professional" and at the same time let her know in a very matter of fact way "nice try" I am not falling for your distortion of the facts in the e-mail, as I know you wrote them directly for ME, not H. I'd make it brief and remind her also that she is not to communicate w/H in this or any other manner, etc.

Maybe this is all bad advice, but I am being honest about how I feel and what I would most likely do in your situation. This is tough, KT and you are a trooper- you will be fine.

Just be sure that you don't allow OW to do what she set out to do.. and that is to set you and H back and get you two arguing which I bet she feels you are. Don't let it happen and don't blame H or get too set back. I know you are confused as to details and who is lying, etc... I know there is one way via 3-way calling to handle putting the he-said she-said to rest. If H initiates a 3-way call to you, then adds her on, from another number other than your own, she would think H is calling her without you. If he converses with her directly about this email and its contents and challenges her statements about timeframes or whatever-- you could see how the story goes during a supposed "Wife-free" call. I did this myself and it helped. You'd just have to make sure he calls you on a cell or whatever when you are actually there with him.

Sounds childish or may be sucky that trust is not at 100%, but thats the nature of these beasts we call A's and their aftermath.

I did not call her. I was very upset but not insane.

Tried to talk it out w/ H instead. That idea bombed. He just doesn't want to deal w/ it. Doesn't respond to anything I say, just shuts me out and shuts down.

H said that I don't even trust him and HE'S tired of being let down that way, that I only ACT like I trust him but I really don't so what is the point.

And I think, why would you just sit back and allow someone to purposely hurt your family or your wife? If he saw some man punching me wouldn't he try to stop it and defend me? Or would he just say, "just ignore it, he only wants you to get upset about it". I told him this and it is the same w/ OW. She is deliberately hurting me and he wants me to ignore it!???!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

I have struggled to be the grown up, to "act like an adult", never making a scene (okay once but she started it & was worse and that was 1 1/2 years ago, in the very beginning), always being polite. My H has always kept his "cool" and not made a scene OR ever corrected her to her face when she has said these kinds of things to me.
Always says, "ok, lets go,"!

I love my H and that's why all of this hurts me. Am I not worth defending? That's what it makes me think. He thinks I should just "trust him", with out any hesitation or thought. DUH!!!!!!! Is he high?

I mean really. There have been so many other instances of fishy things that i have "just trusted" & believed him but I don't get credit for anything. One doubt and I "just don't trust him"! I am starting to think I am the biggest fool here. Why is he even with me then?

Even when there have been questionable situations he says, "you have no reason to beleive me, I can't convince you". But shouldn't he TRY!!!??

I am tired of it all. He says I should try to put myself in his shoes. I am trying to be fair but come on!!!!! I wish I was in his shoes and then see how he would respond to all of this!

I feel like I am coping with this all alone, like he is not even trying. I think I am doing a heck of a good job "dealing" with all this crap but sometimes....yah it hurts again.

He just wants me to "get over it already" and i'm really trying but he's not helping that much either. H says he wants me to turn to him and be able to get comfort and support from him not the "computer" but then when I try----I am just shut out. I guess he only wants to comfort me if it nothing serious about this CRAP!!!!!!

Why am I on here? Why aren't the WH on here? It's long over for him so he can't understand that for me all of this has just started.

H slept on the couch last night, he just ignored me and everything I was saying and then finally said, "I don't want to talk to you right now". Famous last words.......

Put myself in his shoes......feel sorry for him! I have, which is what has enabled me to get over and come as far as we have but what about MY shoes!!!!!!

And anyways, if he wants some sympathy then maybe he SHOULD come on here and get some support. How am I supposed to be a good support to him when I obviously have issues!!!!! I couldn't even sleep last night.

I am so angry right now.

That is an excellent idea Lynn about making her pay for our fees since she is the one forcing us to have to go back to court about it, I never even thought of that. But really, how would she pay us back, in food stamps? LOL

Apparently she is not a "whore" she is another "virgin mother"! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Even better! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> whatever!

I am a christian, you guys know that and i'm trying so hard to handle all of this in the right manner but why can't my H ...... I don't know.....WHY DID HE ALLOW THIS TO HAPPEN and then to still ALLOW it to creep back into our home and in our lives!!!!!!!!!

Just because I "wasn't nice" to him and she was!!!!!! Oh but what a selective memory he chooses. Never mentions how he was treating me @ the time!!!!!!!

I am turning into this horrible ugly person right now and I can feel all the anger and rage and tears coming back and where is it gonna go?

I told him I was "through" last night. I can't and won't keep trying to do "this" all by myself. No feedback from him or it all has to be on his time, "we'll talk about it later", "I don't wnat to talk about it right now"

He said when I called him yesterday so upset, he felt like I was reacting as if it was the very first time he told me anything about it, and he felt like I was attacking him like the very first time, uh! yah duh!!!!!! That was the way my body even was physically responding to it. Is that normal? I could't even control the shaking and the pounding heart. I guess it's because I was so shocked and taken aback by it, coming so unexpectedly out of nowhere.

He was like why are you mad @ me and i told him I don't even know who I'm mad @ or even if I'm mad right now I am just very upset by this!

Maybe I can let just let it all out here. I had calmed down last night and had a good grip on things then when H came home and I tried to talk to him about it and explain my POV on it......it all fell apart again!

I still want him to confront her on all of this and stick up for me. Realistically,I doubt that would ever happen any way because she would just give excuses about not having someone to watch the kids while we talked anyway. But that is what I would WANT to see.

He has the day off today so......we'll see how that goes. I can predict his behaviour pretty well so I have an idea, I would love to be wrong though.

There is no solution, I know. I think he is right in that sense, either deal with it and get over it OR don't!

If this is my life I just have to accept it for what it is and live it!

I'm about ready to give up, maybe this is just too much to ask of someone. Maybe there really is no recovery from something like this. We either ignore and move on or...we don't.

(((( KT )))) I know I felt as if it were day #1 when we found out OC was born--my whole body INSTANTLY got those nasty shakes and heart pounding we know so well.. and then I picked up a cup and threw it in his face and ran away crying and carrying and feeling as if my world was over (again). H was so furious at me because we had gone over all this and we obviously knew the OC would be born... but yet and still these emotions are so strong and so real and they hurt so much-- WE HAVE NO CHOICE IN THE PHYSICAL rush it INSTANTLY gives us-- it is absolutely mind blowing how it comes and we are almost completely powerless over it unless there is a shot of herion or morphine ??? They DON'T understand how deep these scars run and how certain things- beyond our reasoning or control, just make the severe pain RUSH to the surface. If there were no OC involved.. then HELLO.. maybe we could "bury" this pain a little further but they created a life that will always be a risk of rising this pain for us!

I have a meeting for the next hour and would love to respond more (since I am so long-winded, lol)
But mainly about this-- I have printed out entire threads that I started or have responded to for my H... everything is laid out so clear and concise and makes so much more sense when you are writing it not to H... but when it is a bunch of intelligent people and you talking in a pretty much non-attack and rational mode amongst one another. Your posts are very clear and you could even edit a couple things in yours if you want, but just an idea that also was pretty effective for H. Although your H doesn't really like the computer gabbing, etc... you made a good point about your talking to him about it and him shutting you out (my H and many WS are GREAT for doing this also, as they push aside hard issues and sweep them under, hoping they will go away) We women want things settled and handled so we can get on with our lives-- and thats the healthy way. He doesn't see that if he would merely allow you to feel you matter- thats all you really want!
Not to mention I also have told H that he needs to stand up for me with his family,etc... and by just agreeing with me, but not enforcing his bond w/me to his family- it makes it look like its all fine w/him and it hurts me.

Talk to you in a bit... ((((( KT )))) I could have written your post.

I feel alittle better now. I DID repond to OW email. I can not just ignore these things, that does not work for me, it makes me feel like I have no control.

I think I showed some class though. I did not refer to anything "personal".

I only reiterated the FACTS:that she agreed and signed the court order that she has already broken numerous times. I said that she can continue to do what she wants and we will continue to do what's LEGAL.....blah blah blah...

I reminded her ("in case she forgot") "that all communication is to go through me. SO that H can focus on what he is really here for, OC. He does not have the the time or the desire to go back and forth over these frivolous things when we have already gone to court and agreed to the parenting plan that is in place. We plan on sticking to it, in detail. I will continue to handle all communication and details."

I hope she feels utterly "dismissed". She means so much of nothing that H has delegated all communication to go through HIS WIFE!

I feel much better now. I think I am calmed down.....now if I can just get through to that H of mine....

Thanks for all your support everyone during my mini-crisis.

See, am I just ignoring it all now? @ what price?

KT, have you considered what giovanna123 said about going no-contact and maybe discuss it with your H??

Would that be a love-buster with him? Or even letting go of some issues, not to let xow "win", but to relax some strife the fighting causes in your marriage. Chose your battles carefully?

Even if you started contact with mutual egreement, it really seems to be hurting you ALL! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> When your H ends up on the couch not speaking to you over HER note, the xow "won" in a really destructive way.

Some men are conflict-avoiders. Mine is. (It's actually an affair "type"! see http://www.affairs-help.com/). Their anger may come out passive-agressively, but they'll go a long way to avoid arguing. Men compartmentalize well, too. Stick the issue in a box not affecting the rest of their life.

Given these 2 things, your H's behavior doesn't surprise me, but the on-going conflicts are re-injuring your marriage.

I hope it gets better.
J

kt, I am sorry you are going through this. I am sorry for your hurt. I think your H's attitude stinks. When he says, "I don't want to talk about it right now", make a set time for the next day. It could be in the morning with coffee, or in the evening before or after dinner. Commit H to a time to dicuss what is bothering you. If not, tell him you wish to go back to marriage counseling. You cannot go on like this honey.

ember

KT,

I read your orginal post last nite, & I wanted to respond but couldn't. I am now reading your post from this morning & crying, I am so sorry for your pain & hate the fact that words from OW about the past can open up old wound like it was fresh from yesterday. You got some very good responses. But you need H's full cooperation & understanding of your pain in all this.

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Ouote:
Tried to talk it out w/ H instead. That idea bombed. He just doesn't want to deal w/ it. Doesn't respond to anything I say, just shuts me out and shuts down.
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Why does that seem to be the best solution, shut down, deal w/ it later, like it is going to go away???? OW will not go away & she accomplished exactly what she wanted to put a small wedge between you & H. I know it is extremly hard KT, but don't let her do it, I am sure you guys have worked hard to get your marriage back on track, you have chosen to deal w/ OC & I can see why you say you regret it.

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Quote:
And I think, why would you just sit back and allow someone to purposely hurt your family or your wife? If he saw some man punching me wouldn't he try to stop it and defend me? Or would he just say, "just ignore it, he only wants you to get upset about it". I told him this and it is the same w/ OW. She is deliberately hurting me and he wants me to ignore it!???!!!
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I have heard that one too, "Why do you blow everything out of porportion?" "It is not that big a deal!" That almost makes me more angry than whatever I was originally upset about.

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Ouote:
I have struggled to be the grown up, to "act like an adult", never making a scene (okay once but she started it & was worse and that was 1 1/2 years ago, in the very beginning), always being polite. My H has always kept his "cool" and not made a scene OR ever corrected her to her face when she has said these kinds of things to me.
Always says, "ok, lets go,"!

I love my H and that's why all of this hurts me. Am I not worth defending? That's what it makes me think. He thinks I should just "trust him", with out any hesitation or thought. DUH!!!!!!! Is he high?

I mean really. There have been so many other instances of fishy things that i have "just trusted" & believed him but I don't get credit for anything. One doubt and I "just don't trust him"! I am starting to think I am the biggest fool here. Why is he even with me then?

Even when there have been questionable situations he says, "you have no reason to beleive me, I can't convince you". But shouldn't he TRY!!!??

I am tired of it all. He says I should try to put myself in his shoes. I am trying to be fair but come on!!!!! I wish I was in his shoes and then see how he would respond to all of this!
Put myself in his shoes......feel sorry for him! I have, which is what has enabled me to get over and come as far as we have but what about MY shoes!!!!!!
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Maybe that is part of the "fog". Why is it that H's can't see that this hurt is very real & ongoing? No we don't dwell on it, but when OC is created as a result of an A, you not only have the A to get over but a lasting reminder to deal with, even w/ NC, it has financial effects, that you can't ingnore, that go on for 18 to 21 yrs!

I ask my H why he is with me all the time, especially if he can't treat me any better than he does. Trust has to be earned & after a betrayal, the WS should work even harder to rebuild trust IMO. As for you being in his shoes, it is so easy to say that to someone, I hear that all the time too, I know my H would leave me if I were in his shoes. In my experience most men won't/can't forgive an A, much less an OC, ego can't handle it.
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Quote:
I feel like I am coping with this all alone, like he is not even trying. I think I am doing a heck of a good job "dealing" with all this crap but sometimes....yah it hurts again.

He just wants me to "get over it already" and i'm really trying but he's not helping that much either. H says he wants me to turn to him and be able to get comfort and support from him not the "computer" but then when I try----I am just shut out. I guess he only wants to comfort me if it nothing serious about this CRAP!!!!!!

H slept on the couch last night, he just ignored me and everything I was saying and then finally said, "I don't want to talk to you right now". Famous last words.......
And anyways, if he wants some sympathy then maybe he SHOULD come on here and get some support. How am I supposed to be a good support to him when I obviously have issues!!!!! I couldn't even sleep last night. I am so angry right now.
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KT, you are only human, you are dealing with this well, as well as can be expected, there are a lot of self-help books out there but none to tell you how to deal w/ OC & OW & H that lives in in "fogland". This is so not fair, & it makes me angry as well. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

Try to smooth things out w/ H. I know it seems like we as women have to do that a lot but I know your marriage & family is worth it. Sounds like OW is determined to disrupt your lives, don't let her! It is not easy I know my H has spent a few nites on the couch too, who wins though? I have spent many a sleepless nite too, you think OW was up all nite last nite - NO! She may never know what turmoil she caused but only because you let her.

Maybe going to NC is an option? It makes me wonder if my H ever does get legal vistation & puts OW in her proper place, is this what I have to look forward to? I don't question God, but sometimes I wonder why... & seeing so much pain on this forum, I don't know.

Stay strong girl, you can make through this & give God glory! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Ignore the other womans reuqests for financial assistance for a private school that you did not consent to. Pay only the agreed amount of child support and do so through the child support agency - not privately. One day the OW may wake up and stop using her child to come between you and your husband. I will guarentee that she feels any agreement from your husband can be considered a win for her and a jab in your back as his wife! She is not concerned by her childs best interests - she's just trying to get the upper hand and cause problems.

Try and ignore her as much as possible.
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by ktbunch:
 H had to go back to work tonight and I want to call OW soooooooooooooo bad!

Can someone remind me why this would NOT be a good idea?
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

clarification: OC is in Kindergarten. OW enrolled OC in this school w/out H knowledge or consent last year. We made it clear we did not want her in that school, we have maintained our position and OW re-enrolled OC again w/out knowledge or consent. We only found out by asking the school ourselves. <hr /></blockquote>

I started to write alst night but it was taking to long so I tried to save it but.....anyway it's not here. Probably better anyway.

H and I tried to talk/disuss/argue about it again yesterday and we just kept going in circles. It really was pointless.

I finally got to the point of just agreeing with him and saying,"if your idea of "getting over it" is that I will be smiling all the time, never mentioning it again, never having any pain from it, acting like OC is actually mine and you don't have to put in any effort to help me get like that, then YES I am NOT over it and I never will be!, so there we are, there is no point in going on any further. I will never be able to be what you want and you do not want to put in the effort yourself, so it will not be good for the kids but maybe this is just too much for one person to go thru and we will just never recover so either you stay w/ your mom or I will go to mine".

I did not say this threatening but rather in a calm resigned kind of way. We had to run some errands and stuff so we were and just stayed quiet.

After awhile H tried to apologize and said that he knows he has been slacking and the FIRST thing he is going to do is start reading his Bible again, with me, on a regular basis. (earlier when we were arguing H had asked me something that I don't remember but I had responded, well read some books or read the Bible @ least, I think he was asking like how can he find out what to do or how to act in our marraige) So I guess that made him realize the true nature of our problems and what the priorities should be.

I did not resond when he said this, which was probably smart since I tend to over-respond as I'm sure you all have noticed.

So things have calmed down and of course, I am not ending my marriage. It's not what I want, it never has been.
*********
H uncle (the lawyer) referred us to a lawyer. It's a female but she was an officer in the air force and is president of the Bar. Not only is she legaly knowledgeable but supposedly can hold her own. We left her a message. Uncle gave some good advice about some changes to make to custody agreement too. Said to cut the BS of only having the schedule that OW would agree to. Said OW does NOT have to agree, that is what the judge is for and the judge will see that it is nothing unreasonable that we ask for. He could see, w/o us telling him that OW was agreeing to a schedule that was to puposely not allow OC to be alone w/ me (because visitation is all around H days off). He said there is no reason for that and judge will see that. So we are more hopeful for that too.

We literally have no $$$ but we will do whatever it takes to afford this laywer.

Of course that won't eliminate OW occasional A details but I am going to ask the lawyer about that to. There has got to be something. If businesses can have confidentiality clauses and things where you can't talk about or discuss settlements then I'm sure we can put something like that in there somewhere, that no referances to respondent/defendents past relationship can be made or something like that. I bet that we can really do this, that would be interesting.

*********
I am either an optimist or a glutton for punishment because I think if we can just get all this "stuff" (custody/visitation) all precise and detailed on the court order then that will eliminate the strife.

I advocate NC because of my own experiences so others can avoid them instead of playing the risk game and I wish there was someway to eliminate it for us.....as if we moved away......but since OC knows us, it has been almost 2 years, I just feel like we can't stop it. But maybe there will come a time when we can move away and get on with OUR lives.

It has nothing to do w/ bonding I don't think. I don't think any of us has "bonded", OC included, more like a toleration and occasionally someone is enjoying themselves through it. Like OC gets to have different opportunities w/ us and BC have someone different to play w/.
***********
So here we are.............. in lala land? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Hi, I have been a lurker here for a while. I don't really post because this obviously isnt my board. First let me say I am sad to say I am an OW and the worst kind..yes I am pregnant. it's a LONG story for which I will start a new thread because I could use some feedback from you ladies sides.

Anyway,
what got my attention is the "3-way call" thing. Be wary of this.
Shortly after DDay. My MM explained to me that BS requested such a phone call, one in which she would listen in. He coached me on exactly what I was supposed to say and not say and there was a "secret phrase" that would alert me that she was in on the call.

I had serious issues with this. The woman had been through enough pain... and I didnt feel comfortable in continuing any deception. Fortunately this 3 way call has not happened. I am sure he pulled the same crap your husband did, getting "upset" with wife saying " you dont trust me".

As far as the OW insensitive comments...well I agree they were unecessary, but I think instead of trying to hurt you she knows that you will react and take it out on your husband. So Really your husband is the target of her manpulation. She wants to hurt HIM and she is using YOU to do it for her. This is still wrong. Obviously she is still hurting as well which is why she is playing these stupid games.

It seems to me that both your husband and the OW are playing power trip with each other. As far as the child's school schools and this disturbs me most.. similar to divorced spouses with children in which they use the children as pawns to manipulate each other.

She knows the school choice upsets him. HE knows the school choice he made upsets her.

Before I digress tomuch. if the child was already in that school last year, wouldnt it be better FOR THE CHILD to keep him in the same school with all his established playmates and familiar environment?

Unless this is a matter of affordability and difference in cost between the schools then I can completely undestand you and your husband's decision.

oh, curious, what type of custody agreement does you husband have with the child's mother? Do they have joint custody or does she have sole custody?

Thanks for letting me interject my thoughts here. I know I am the "evil ow" here stepping in on your thread. I just got riled by the 3 way call thing. My stbxMM is such a convincing liar... he really made me mad when he tried to pull me in to cover his [censored].

He has caused her and I enough pain ... so then he wants to get me involved with this 3 way call LIE?? Thank godit never happened because I dont think I could lie for him anymore.

[ March 15, 2004, 03:51 PM: Message edited by: LynnG ]

Ok KT. Times up. Game over. You have fought the good fight. Give contact up with oc. It's over. This oc and her presence is causing way to much drama. The time you are spending and the money you are spending is not worth it. Your husband sounds numb. END THE CONTACT NOW.

Dear ow,

We have tried to be loving and supportive to oc. However you inability to put oc needs first are clear and we no longer wish to deal with you. From this day forward, we will no longer have visitation with oc. Our family is our first priority and we are going to focus on our lives.

We will keep a journal for oc, in the chance that she wishes to reconnect with us as an adult.

Any contact from you will be considered harrassment and will be treated as such.

KT BUNCH

THEN WALK AWAY. How much more damage are you going to allow? STOP THE MADNESS.

Make sure your attorney is well aware of all of this. Have them help you write the letter.

THEN keep a journal. Keep all her harrassing emails, etc. Also fond memories (?), photos of family trips, etc. Should oc contact you in the future you can say you tried. People are not stupid. She will see what the truth was.

Your husband is on overload too. Sure, you are the one who is the innocent victim, but he is now a victim too. OW is manipulating him and, darling, you are helping her do it. You need to stop. He doesn't want contact. So let it end.

Sure, ow may win this battle. But really, what did she win? The CS was legally due, so that is not a win. She has toyed with her child and cost said child a father and a good stepmother. She lost her free babysitter. What do you lose?????

1. you loose the constant drama
2. you loose the upheaval of your home
3. you loose the dueling attorney fight
4. you loose all the time on the road to pickup oc.

YOU GAIN Far more. She may think she "win's" But really you do.

1. You win peace
2. You win a chance to enjoy your life
3. You are no longer force to fight for day to day normalcy with an abornormal person.
4. You win admiration of your H. You tried to do a good thing, at a high cost to yourself and your children, for another. Even though it didn't work out, at least you tried. The only one who did.
5. You win back your life.
6. Your children get a chance at quiet life
7. Happy and romantic times instead of talking about laywers and pickup times and oc schools etc.

END THIS NOW.

KT, I really worry about you. You sound like such a wonderful, kind and loving person. You are obviously a fantastic mother and loyal friend. Your love for your family and your husband is evident. Why oh why beat yourself and your marriage up anylonger? Please please please, take your own advice and go no contact. It is really beating you up. SHE is controlling you and your life right now. STOP IT. It isn't worth it. Spend your time and money on your own kids.

You tried. You did not fail. She did. You can't be expected to shoulder her responsiblity any longer.

Keep the faith.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by LynnG:
 NYCMedic - It makes no difference if this school is best for oc or not. The FATHER said no. Therefore he should not be expected to grant ow her wish. <hr /></blockquote>Were you fine lying and having the affair and getting pregnant while she didn't know anything?

The three way call was to appease her, since her feelings and well being matter.

Your sudden burst of conscience is questionable. You will not lie for him? But you helped him lie already didn't you? If he was leaving her for you I bet you would be perfectly happy to keep up the lies. But since it is quite clear where his loyalty lies, NOW you get all worried about HER feelings?

As for your hurt, nope, It does not belong on this thread for sure. You were not an innocent party at all. Your hurt is self inflicted. Deal with it.

What has me angy that you are here, even mentioning what is best for oc, an then talking about YOUR pain. KT is a good person. Kinder then I am. And let me tell you, when you come on here with your passive agressive bull****, it makes me mad. SHE is a good woman. A woman who has done far more for the oc then many in this situation. So don't lecture her about what is good for oc.

The oc is just one of many. The oc is NOT the most important person in the scenario. KT's feelings matter. Her childrens feelings matter. They should NOT be expected to shoulder this all to accomodate the oc.

I see this is your first post. I am sorry that i am jumping hard at you. I just feel that your mention of oc's best interest, and then YOUR hurt is totally out of line.

Lynn G - AMEN!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> KT you are the most wonderful patient person there is here. I would love to meet you two in person ! Maybe in heaven we will see each other and know that, that is the person I help or that helped me. I'm hoping that our OW gets so mad w/the papers and the DNA that she is NOT going to get out of that she will just leave !! My prayer "God please take my enemies from me" !! Keep the log book and emails and all papers because someday the OC may show up w/ the OW version of why. Just like my H told the OW when she told him what was he going to say when the OC asked why weren't you there when I was born and he said because I was with my wife and family ! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> And she wouldn't allow his family to be there. (Like I actually want to be) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> And we have to remember that the OW use us to get back at our H's so we need to watch that too. When OW realize we (BW) are smarter than them (OW) maybe they will stop acting stupid and get some kind of respect for themselves and their children and do what is right. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> Don't know if it will ever happen but would be nice.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by LynnG:
[QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by LynnG:

As for your hurt, nope, It does not belong on this thread for sure. You were not an innocent party at all. Your hurt is self inflicted. Deal with it.

What has me angy that you are here, even mentioning what is best for oc, an then talking about YOUR pain. KT is a good person. <hr /></blockquote>no where am I mentioning my "pain." I am annoyed at MM's request if anything. I think you are misunderstanding my intentions. I am sure KT is a wonderful person and I am not trying to make light of her pain. I am just saying she either trusts her husband or she doesnt, if she needs to be on a 3 way call to feel better then it seems she doesnt trust him, as demonstrated by his reaction to her request. I would suggest something a little more fool proof, so that he could pull no stunts with OW. Better yet, just communicate with the lawyers and dont deal with her at all because it causes to much drama all the way around.
Lynn,
As far as my pregnancy, i shouldnt even have brought it up on this thread. The circumstances are way more complicated than you could imagine. So I will start another thread on that.

i have been trying to stay away from this board for reasons just like the last post by my dear friend lynn.

those narrow and bitter views from a person who simply offered advice are uncalled for.

you come on here flailing you pure hatred of all ow regardless of ones individual circumstances and knowing what the specifics are of their situation which does no one any good. it just wastes space.

you have been able to offer some excellent legal advice that i am sure has helped many. but your unsensitive and discompassionate attitudes that jump to conclusions and just blindly lash out at anyone with different views from your own should be regarded as senseless fodder. these actions show make it clearly evident that you fail consistantly to even read completely what people post here.

nyc did not in any way lecture kt on what was good for her oc. she mearly offered an opinion that might have helped her.

kt,,,,,,,,,,,,, i have been posting to you on your other thread and would like to offer this opinion regarding your situation with ow and oc c vs nc.

if it is indeed in your court papers (legal documents) then i see no reason for not persueing an end to support what the judge has ruled on. just try and keep yourself focused on the facts and not the fact that it is an ow you are battleing in court. the latter could prove to fatal (so to speak) for your case as you may get so hung up on the pride issue of trying to beat her that you overlook the common sense issues.

on the ending contact issue i would like to offer this opinion. and please remember that it is only based on what LITTLE i know of your situation.

1st i am curious to know for how long you have had contact with oc and how close is each member of your family with oc? i am assuming (and hate to do that) that since she is 6 yo that it has been for several years so i will ask you what you will be teaching all the children with whom your child and oc have interacted. that if something isn't perfect you turn and walk away? what does it say for your commitment to se things thru once you start them? maybe your child would learn that if her homework is to hard then just get rid of it.

i am sure also that in this 6 years your own child has formed some kind of attachment to the oc. so what about his/her feelings and again how do you explain that to him/her so that he/he doesn't end up wotrrying that mom and dad may someday get rid of him/her if things are not perfect.

all i am really saying is that if your relationship with oc HAS been going on for many years i think all adults involved need to sit down and do some real soul searching before they end up walking out on ANY child.

AGAIN i am NOT advocating contact in all situations. i agree with lynn that you sem to be a caring, compassionate and loving mother and person or else you wouldn't be here trying to figure this whole mess your in out. but please don't let the advice of someone who carries such anger and bitterness sway the your decision. if you choose nc for the right reasons then i can except that. but in your case not mearly for the contempt of ow. not after all this time of being in that childs life.

just my thoughts, take them or leave them, that's your choice, pops

POPS I know it makes my stomache turn when I read a lot of posts on here now. People like LynnG spewing her hatred out. It was a much better place when there was a balance of views. Now there is such over bearing hatred spewed. Ran out some great peope like you and Full house (and others...sorry not to mention more names) that really gave some good sound advice. A different perspective that seemed healthier. You speak so well...you have away that you put things....I wish you would do it more often. The hatred can not be the overall voice here. That is just too sad. Everyone can over come and make their marriages stronger without the hatred attached to it. To me it seems masked...and then to bring religious tones to it.

______________
by pops:
1st i am curious to know for how long you have had contact with oc and how close is each member of your family with oc? i am assuming (and hate to do that) that since she is 6 yo that it has been for several years so i will ask you what you will be teaching all the children with whom your child and oc have interacted. that if something isn't perfect you turn and walk away? what does it say for your commitment to se things thru once you start them? maybe your child would learn that if her homework is to hard then just get rid of it.

i am sure also that in this 6 years your own child has formed some kind of attachment to the oc. so what about his/her feelings and again how do you explain that to him/her so that he/he doesn't end up wotrrying that mom and dad may someday get rid of him/her if things are not perfect.

all i am really saying is that if your relationship with oc HAS been going on for many years i think all adults involved need to sit down and do some real soul searching before they end up walking out on ANY child.
______________

I have thought this all through millions if not more, times in my head. This would never be a rash decision.

We have known OC for (only) almost 2 years, even though OC is 6.

I have wondered what all of "this" will and is teaching my children.

I can only hope and not guarantee what they will learn.

I hope they will learn that we all make mistakes, some bigger and more evident than others.

I hope they learn that their actions have consequences, some dire.

I hope they learn also, that thier actions affect more people than they think.

I hope they learn that "sin" hurts people and touches every one they love.

About things being "too hard" and "giving up", HELLO!!!!!

I'm sorry but there is a difference between someone not finishing thier homework and then someone stepping into your life and deliberately trying to hurt you and your family. I DON'T want my children to learn that you do not protect your family and continue to allow someone to hurt them.

I want my children to learn that we will protect them, thier childhood AND their family.

I think they will learn that love is redeemable and nothing is unforgiveable and that neither of these things can be accomplished without Jesus Christ our Saviour.

I am too tired to think much less write much more.

In Lynn's defense, not that she needs it from me, I think she can hold her own very well. I don't see her as "spewing hatred". I respect her candor and defense of BS everywhere. Just because she doesn't waffle in her views does not mean that she is bitter and angry.

Come on people, get realisitic. LynnG and her H have chosen a path that AVOIDS all the pain and madness that I and my family am currently experiencing, how is that wrong?

I wish I would have met her 2 years ago and could have avoided it myself.

edited for typos and to add:
As far as the "soul searching", I have been doing nothing else for the past 2 years!!!!!! I have even asked OW to do the same but unfortuneately with Her soul searching comes insults and unecessary details as she tries to butt into MY life and hurt me and my family. Do you really think I should allow that to continue for the "sake of OC"?

And how INTERESTING that OW writes these intrusive comments of hers and then ends the email w/ remarks about IF we continue to be in OC life....hmmmm....wonder what her motivation was/is. Get out of her & OC life or she will continue to make MINE miserable??!!!?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

What do you think these posts are for? I write to help explore my thoughts, feeling, failings, successes and struggles with this WHOLE thing. And I appreciate the feedback, it helps to make things more clear sometimes and more complicated others.

I don't think ANYONE would make a decision like this lightly. We're BS but NOT heartless like some of you would think.

Maybe I do whine too much, some have an easier time w/ this and maybe some heal quicker. I honestly believe I and my marriage would be much further along in this "process" if OC was not in our lives.

There are good days when I think I can do "this" and there are bad days (& hellish days like last week) when my H and I both just say-what the heck are we doing to ourselves!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Because of this ABNORMAL situation in our lives it makes everyday things seem so much more stressful sometimes. For instance in 2 weeks older son has academic testing. He must be there by 9 am, the same days we have OC and we take her to school, there is tons of traffic and H usually does not get home until 9 am. So we need to leave @ 7 am to get OC to school @ 8 am and somehow be back in time to get BC where he needs to be by 9 am!

This kind of stuff stresses me out! It is just extra stress! We chose a lifestyle (initially) that was low stress and suddenly I'm surrounded by it.

Maybe this is normal stuff to some people and that is why you can't understand but for me this is over and beyond.

And if we ever chose to end C and go exclusively NC, do you really think I believe it would be forever. OF course not, I would be expecting a knock on the door in 10 years or sometime when OC reached her teen years at least!

I have it all planned out in my mind of what we would do, how we would go about it and what NC would really look like for us.

I have thought this through in detail.

*******
LynnG, your posts make it soooo unbelievable clear. Somehow translating all that clarity in real life seems so complicated. (I think OC's name means "clarity")

After small CS victory yesterday H and I are going to try one last time, w/ new attorney to make the custody agreement full-proof and to assert ALL of H rights about OC then......that will be our last attempt and we can rest in the knowledge that we really have done all we could possibly do and I will have a 100% clear conscience in whatever steps we take after that.

[ March 17, 2004, 10:34 AM: Message edited by: ktbunch ]

KT, well good for you!! Just keep living and loving.

Pops, well, you and I will forever disagree about lots of things. But I do agree with your thoughts on fighting to beat the ow, instead of what is for the best.

Mom of 5 - If you want to think of me as bitter since I have little/no sympathy for a woman who gets herself pregnant by a man who is not able to be a father for whatever reason, so be it. I stand FIRMLY in the corner of the wife and the children of the marriage. If some ow doesn't like it to bad. Personally I find it BITTER on the ow part to even consider that the man and his family need to or should accomodate the child, when she certainly was not thinking about his children. I will constantly advise BW that THEY AND THEIR CHILDREN COME FIRST. I will always disagree with OW and their kind who believe anything different. The wife should not have to accomodate the ow/oc wishes at all. And KT and her family are a classic case of why contact does not work. Upheaval. Drama. OW playing games. And on and on and on.

OW types HATE anyone who support and encourage the BW to fight back. To stand tall. To be firm. That it is perfectly ok, and probably for the BEST to NOT have contact with the oc. To be totally and 100% honest with what the BW WANTS and to heck with the ow and the oc. Everybody gets one life to live, live it the way YOU want. That INCLUDES THE BW. SHE has a right to peace and happiness too.

LynnG you can step off your soap box for a minute. I don't care who you support...it is in the manner of how you speak. I wouldn't want you to agree with everything or anything I say. I like that people have different opinions than I do. Oh what a boring world if everyone was a like. When I read what or how you write it feels like words of hatred coming out. You clump all OW together...like they are the devil themselves. BUT for the WS that these woman are married to don't seem like they get the same backlash from you.
For your information I am all for someone protecting themselves the best they can. I don't believe in playing cruel. I remember you saying leaving the OC $1.00 in your will. TO me that is an unusually cruel thing to do to a child...any child. I see your point about leaving the OC something so they can't sue the estate. Like I said I am all for protecting ones self. But I see this OC in their early 30's...getting word that his biological father left something to him pertaining to his will. So first off this might be the first word this OC gets of his fathers death...then to be slapped in the face by $1.00. Even at my age I wouldn't feel it a slap in the face if I was left $2,500 or whatever was minimal to the estate. Even a $1,000 is better than $1. I thought that was so cruel. One of the cruelest things I have ever heard. This child didn't ask to be brought into this world. You shouldn't take your anger out on the OC. So I really loose respect when you go out of your way to be unusually cruel.

Well, so be it. But the point is to make sure the child can't sue the estate right? That is a LEGAL move to protect my children. You are proving one of my points, ow only like the law when it serves them. When it is used to protect the nuclear family, well then it is wrong and cruel and mean.

The wrong and cruel and mean deed was the affair itself. My children and I did not ask for this in our lives either. Yet we have paid the child support as mandated by the law. If you are so appalled at the thought of the oc not getting any money from the estate, are you equally as appalled at the amount of money over 18 years that the children of the marriage lose out on? Isn't it mean and cruel of the OW to expect them to lose out on that money???? Or is that different? Why?

See, it is a two way street. You are only seeing it from the side of the oc. What is best for oc. How mean it would be to oc. How will the oc feel. I will turn it right around at you and say, leaving $$ would not be best for MY children. It would be mean and cruel to expect them to, etc. See, two way street.

That is what has you all upset. That I do NOT worry about oc or what will or will not upset him. He is not my concern. MY children are.

Back to the same old argument. THE OC IS NOT THE ONLY ONE WHO OWNS A PIECE OF THE HURT PIE. The sooner everyone realizes that the better off everyone will be. The ow needs to take her part in the damage she has created to not only her own child, but to the BW and her children. Just as the MM has to realize what he has done. Lots of people are hurt. NOT JUST THE OC.

The wife and her children should not have to shoulder the responsibility to make everything all right. They are just as much victims as the oc.

It is perfectly legal for an ow to get child support. Why is it NOT legal to leave oc out of the will? Good grief, you say that I am mean and bitter, yada yada, listen to yourself?

All you do is whine about the plight of the oc. Yet it is wrong for a BW to fight and take care of her children?

Hypocrite.

No I think it is YOU who doesn't understand what I am saying. I think you can protect your children without slapping the OC with leaving them $1. I wouldn't have cared if you left them totally out...which I would prefer than the dollar. But I understand about protecting your assest in case after your death. BUT I do not think leaving a little higher amount so it isn't a slap in the face to the OC. I don't think your children would suffer if the OC got say the equivalent of 2 support paymemts. I am just saying I think the $1 is very cruel to someone that is also innocent.
I believe in a lot of what you do say. I think it works both ways. I do have a problem with when I think you step over the line and are intentionally cruel. Hey, I will be right there with the BS if I think they are getting played by the OW or the H.
Just like I am very happy for KT in her victory. They played it by the law. I don't like it that they can't afford healthcare for their children. NOR do I think they should have to pay half of OC private school. Especially if their own children are not in private school!
So when you give sound advice without lashing your hatred out that ALL OW are this or that. OR that you are doing something directly cruel to the OC by leaving them $1 in the will yes...I think that is just WRONG! But that is my opinion. I have a right to my opinion just as you do yours.

I get it. Don't agree with it, but I get it. I would never expect my children to lose out on money to the oc if their father died. Sorta like expecting my children to now pay for his mistake. Nope. They lost enough cause of his affair and resulting child support. That was his mistake. I feel as if my children have lost out on enough.

Here again, is the kicker. The wife and her kids see things differently then the ow/oc. So who is right?

My kids had the day they learned of oc. All the pain and confusion, etc. Oc had to learn at one point of not having his real father, etc. So who hurts more?

My kids wanting things, can't cause of cs. They are angry. Very angry at their dad. Protective of mom. OC wanting things, can't cause not enough money. Probably angry. Protective of mom.
Which one hurts more?

Examples can go on and on. Who is hurt worse? The bottom line is they all get to be hurt and disillusioned and upset and embarrassed. They ALL get it. Totally the fault of MM and OW. Absolutely not one ounce of that can be blamed on the children or the wife.

So, the point is, if the oc is hurt at the will, well his mother will have to deal with it. Just as the MM has to deal with the fallout from his kids. Sorry, it goes all over the place.

Lynn, I think your right. Everyone suffers here and its because on two people being selfish to their own needs and wants!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> But the BS and BC and OC had no choice in the matter, no one stopped to ask them how they would feel it all of the actions of OW & MM blew up in their face!!! I am a beleiver that a woman has control over her body and therefore she chooses to go thru with all the hurt to everyone. Yes it took two to make it, but one who could control the situation and prevent it. I didn't want any more children, so my body, I FIXED IT!!! Many OW, I think use, this to get the MM. Most MM if they where told ok if we do this I'm going to get preg, then (I would hope) they wouldn't go for it. If asked I'm sure most of the OW where told by MM to "get and A." Thats the way most men fix things. It's soooo much fun and exciting for the OW and MM and then the BS, BC, OC are the ones in the middle suffering. The BS tring to hold everything they worked for together and the MOST OW being a pain and cause hurt and pain to the ones they blame for their pain. AND THEY CREATED THIER OWN PAIN !! They didn't get paid to have sex, why should they be paid for something they created out of lies, and deceat. I'm like lynn. why should we care about the ones that caused so much pain. They didn't think about us when they were created these little bundle of joys, that grow up thinking they cause the pain. Lynn, after all of that blah blah blah, I want to say I thank you for being so candid and truthful. Two sides to every story and you have helped many deal with their pain and fears.

Well thank you <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I have lived this and am not new to it.

OW do NOT want a BW empowerd and swinging back. It will work better if the BW is a whimpering hurt soul. That way the OW can run roughshod all in the name of "doing what is best for the oc". <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

But, boy if one stands up and says "Wait a minute, MY kids are coming first" then suddenly the ow has the wife painted as some evil woman who wants to rip off poor innocent children.

And so the fight is on.

LynnG you don't know a darn thing about me. My situation is pretty perplex. I feel the pain being a child that didn't know my father either. But I was not an OC. But my husband has OC. I was one of those BS that didn't want this OC to be raised not knowing his father. So I pushed for him to have his fatherly rights. The OW was out of state. OH boy did she know how to be a real witch and get her attorneys to work the system. They held that up in court for over 2 years! Thousands of dollars. Then she remarried...somehow they got the courts to put her husband adopting her son in front of our paternity case. So the lawyers wanted thousands of more dollars to fight that case. THey were in a small county...all the attorneys knew each other. Since we were out of state...and over 10 years ago when fathers didn't have a chance in court we had to give up the case. We had a young family and it had cost us enough financially and emotionally. But I don't feel like hooray we don't have to pay for this child and take away from our family. I feel a loss. Now with who knows what the OW told this child he may never want to know us...or feel like he shouldn't look us up. I am glad he has a father figure in his life full time..because we live too far and couldn't have done that. BUT I would never leave him $1 in our will. I won't leave him as much as our children either because i am sure he will be left something from his adoptive dad. As far as I know they weren't planning on having any more kids. Yes, there is a lot of hurt. Sometimes I still have things I have to overcome if my H wants to go out with the guys after work. Or if he went out and bought his own new underware...there are triggers! Maybe the hurt will never go away. BUT I would never do something to hurt that child to hurt him emotionally.
Okay there is more to my story but don't want to write a novel...especially on someone else's thread. Like I said I agree with a lot of what you say. But your presentation sometimes really screams out hatred to me. Hard to believe you are healed and over your pain.
So I don't agree that all OW are out to get all they can. Our OW was more into having all the control over her son and calling my H just a sperm donor.
A lot of your antics remind me of the crap some of my friends X's are pulling. They were even married and do everything under the sun to screw their own kids out of money. One went from a high paying job to min. wage job. Had a great lawyer...my friend was in dire straights and couldn't afford a lawyer...so I think she had a state appointed one. For 3 kids he got off paying like $300! Then another friend's X cheated with a person at work and left her for that OW. He did something underhanded at work and was about to get fired but they gave him the option of quitting. So then he decided to stay home and watch OW kids. He got in arrears. Got a bad paying job compared to the one he had. But with arrears he decided it wasn't worth working. His girlfriend thinks it is better for him to watch her kids so she doesn't have to pay daycare and he doesn't have to pay CS for his kids. OH we won't go into all the stories I have. I don't like any child getting the raw end of the deal. I don't like children of the marriage being thought of on a lesser scale than the OC. I wish there was a more fair way for all kids to be computed. But I don't have all the answers. I don't think there is a fair way that works for everyone. Especially when there is people that play it unfairly.
So even though I agree with alot you have to say. I also feel you put some things out there that also hurts the OC which is also innocent in this.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by LynnG:
 Well thank you <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I have lived this and am not new to it.

OW do NOT want a BW empowerd and swinging back. It will work better if the BW is a whimpering hurt soul. That way the OW can run roughshod all in the name of "doing what is best for the oc". <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />
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Lynn, even I think a bw should stand up for her kids, as I would stand up for my twins. I think you have taken what you want the ow to think of you instead of what the ow really thinks. It's one thing to screw her over, another to protect yourself.
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But, boy if one stands up and says "Wait a minute, MY kids are coming first" then suddenly the ow has the wife painted as some evil woman who wants to rip off poor innocent children.
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No, again there is a difference between screwing over and being unfair and mean versus standing up for themselves. Like you said in one of your post......your uh did this too. So not only did your uh screw you , he is also screwing his oc that has his blood running through his viens. All the kids are innocent here. The only way I would think that someone else is evil is if they act in a evil way. Does not matter who they are.
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And so the fight is on. <hr /></blockquote>I have seen you show compasion and then spew comes out of your mouth. I do have to agree that I even agree with some things you say, but I do think you justify your actions. Which is just as bad as the mm/ow justifing the affair. I agree with momof5 that how unfair it is when they can't afford to put there own kids on medical insurance. Kids can fall any time and break an arm, and they get sick. Medical costs are way to high with one kid let alone with 3. It's not fair. You have shown your ow that she will never have your life, your h, your money, your nothing. The difference between you and some of the others here is that they can't afford to hire a great lawyer who also happens to be a friend and hire the accountants to hide there money, or get away with filiing a false seperation because the ow is to afraid of the bs to investiagate and bring them back to court for fraud. I hope you also tell these gals that they could be taking a chance by doing the things they are doing that you have suggested instead of just getting an attorney and being honest. Did your ow hide her assests too in order to try and get more money? If so that would make you both wrong. I know for one that if I caught my xmm and wife pulling the stuff you did, I'd hire a PI in a flat second and prove it all wrong and drag him back into court for trying to screw over his flesh and blood. I'm playing by the rules and so should all the other adults. But if for some reason he would get away with it, maybe on this earth he would, but not at the end of his days when he has to meet his maker.....and before you want to ask me where my morals where when I slept with him????? Don't. I have already been there and faced that. It's a mistake never to be made again. My daughter will pay by not having her flesh and blood father. So tell me who is having to give up here? You have choosen to stay with your uh which means you have to accept what is. Leaving one dollar in the will, how evil is that? Why bother leaving anything? Just have to get one last dig in before the you die? Or before your h dies?

kt,,,,,,,,,,,,

..................................
I'm sorry but there is a difference between someone not finishing thier homework and then someone stepping into your life and deliberately trying to hurt you and your family.
.......................................
homework was just used here as an exampple of what your chldren might learn about life. not that i was trying to compare homework with the pain of infidelity. what if when your kids are older the lesson they remember is that they are having troubles with their own spouse so what the heck they will just leave. that was the piont i was trying to allude to. the just walking when things aren't going your way. but that doesn't matter.

if you and h decide after this next attempt at getting your ow in line on nc then that if fine. all i was doing is trying to point out another side of this coin. it seems so easy for bs spouses to hate the ow and in the name of "protecting my family" and on the advice and encouragement of some elders who carry the flame of anger for years walk away from oc.

your posts tell me that you have looked at things from many angles. the fact that you are going back to court and have continued visitation for 2 years say that you really do care about oc. it is just the ow that yu are having a problem with.

with my oldest son his mom was a real bi!#$. she did everything imaginable to pi$$ me off and get me to stay away. but once i had made the connection with my son there was no way i was going to walk out on HIM.

now i am not necessarily a gambling man unless i see a sure thing and i'll bet you $100 to your day old donut on this. your ow is being such a pain in the a$$ so that she can beat YOU again and teach your h a lesson by driving you out of her life and also keeping his money. she is trying to make him PAY for what he did to her.

same bet on the fact every time you and h take the oc for visitation it drives her crazy and she hates it.

i think you are correct and i'll make that bet one more time that someday down the road oc will knock on your door if you choose nc. and you can be assured that she will take it very personal and have a hard time understanding that you and h walked out of her life because you couldn't deal with ow. beacuse remember ow will have spent years filling her head with negative things about you and h with oc ever seeing or having any feedback to show her differently. but then again YOU are concerned about YOUR family not ow's family. one of which like it or not is YOUR stepdaughter.

i wish you and yours the best in which ever path you choose. see i'm headed for margarita ville.

lynn,,,,,,,,,,,,, by your definition and remembering that i am also a BS i guess i if i am worn out at the end of the day or just plain tired i should not have to ACCOMODATE grace should she need something or maybe wake up at 3 am from a bad dream or maybe if i'm just mad at om for some off the wall trigger. after all that may make me a little grumpy with my bio kids if i were up all night with the OC.

fortunately i missed your message about protecting yourself from ow by leaving OC $1. what a crock of misguided garbage that is. what a shame that you are such a materialistic person that in the name of "protecting yours" you would slight one of YOUR H'S children. that's right i didn't use the term OC intentionally because no matter what you want to think your h has all the children that you 2 produced together PLUS ONE.
true that child doesn't deserve anything special but he/she deserves to at least be acknowledged in a way that is not insulting. leave rthe child out of the will but don't insult him/her.

you see (no i guess you never will) but in the name of "protecting your family" you are punishing one of YOUR H'S CHILDREN. you continueally offer advice to get back at ow by punishing a child.

you seem to forget that although i am supporting c in many instances that i to am a bs dealing with an oc. the difference is that i look at things thru open eyes seeing each individual case for it's own specific facts. where as you are unwavering and closed minded about any other view then your own. i can except the fact that for some nc is best but for you c is always wrong.

i know what you are going to say to me "it is different when the ws is the w and the oc is born into the h's house". sure i'll tell you what the difference is plain and simple. when a h is the ws it is much easier to say to the bs w to have nc. the reason is simple that as long as the h stays they rid themselves of the ow and he still gets to have his kids in the house with him when he gets up in the morning.

on the other hand when the w is the ws and a h wants to choose nc for the most part he is also saying "see you later to his kids". because if he doesn't want to deal with the oc or om he will have to divorce his w and 99% of the time that means he will be scr#wed by the cs agencies and have to move out of his family's home.

now i am not saying that this is the case in my own situation. i had many reasons for wanting grace's bio dad to pay his cs but one of them was that i looked at beating him at something. which was a wrong reason.

you can constantly blame all A's on the ow/om trying to say that you know the ws had a part in it yet you simply beat up the op. tell me do you beat up your h as badly or is he an innocent also? even the narrowest of minds has to be able to see that some of the ow here have made poor judgements but at the same time poor judgenments and lies were also thrown around by all ws's.

oinions of different color are great but presentation is what classifies you as bitter.

Ya know, I've been away for a while. I've been busy with school, my new career and preoccupied and don't lurk much these days. Some of the reason for my absence is that this forum has sadly changed and is loaded with OW shoving their opinions down everyone's throat and then there are the bleeding heart BS that parrot the mantra of the OW.

I see a LOT of people freaking out and calling logical information and pragmatic advice "spewing hated and bittereness and cruelty" and it cracks me up. Where the F is this coming from? Since when is common sense considered "spewing cruelty hatefulness and bitterness? This stuff Lynn says is simply logical suggestions that will serve the BS and BC and you crucify her for it. And THAT defies logic.

Comparing "logic" to cruelty (or whatever the favored manipulated word is to cause shame and contrition and compliance) is kind of like bemoaning the laws of nature and calling them cruel, bitter and hateful for depositing too much rain that causes mud slides, or blaming el nino as unjust, bitter and hateful for out of control fires that destroy homes. The point being that you cannot argue with logic and the laws of nature without making yourself sound like an imbecile for demanding that you get preferential treatment simply by creating (through deceit) an OC that you are now demanding income shares for, emotional support for, integration into the XMM's home and imposing yourself and the OC into a family's life that has probably never heard of you before D-day. I mean, the crust of these people slay me.

Their sudden post D-day appearance into our lives is such a HUGE imposition and intrusion. While most BS are sorry for the OC, the OC belongs to its mother. It's Mom's problem! It is not MY problem. I have three kids. I have two grandkids. I do have room in my heart and home for OC NOW that time has passed and healing has happened, but it would still be extremely difficult to explain OC's existance to family, friends, acquaintances and while I know that OC will probably end up on the perverbial doorstep someday, we are ready and prepared to welcome this child into our life. But, that's our choice and not something that is supposed to be forced on us under the circumstances.

Ninety percent of the time, the OC's Mom wants NOTHING to do with any BS involvement whatsoever, and will usually be creating trouble and making demands while picking their pocket. And we are all supposed to embrace all this? Are you out of your freaking minds? Are you insane?

As Bee and Myst and Chud and Jil and all the others on TOW who constantly and unceremoniously demanding BS to "get the F off their board" saying "this board is NOT for BS...go to MB, the "cult" and stay off our site with all the other Christians."

They have a point. As they want us to stay the F off their site..... they and all the other OW's should stay the F off this site. The TOW ladies are always, always saying that BS do not belong on their board and will tell BS that they are stepping on "thin ice" if they say anything even remotely against their cult's mantra. So, the same should apply here as well. I totally respect their right to have their own space without BS marching over there and mouthing off just as all OW's here should go to TOW and stay off MB, because, they are in the wrong place.

Because of the heavy infiltration of OW (who are treated a hell of a lot better here than BS are treated on TOW) our site has changed dramatically and it isn't fun anymore if every single time someone offers information or an opinion that offends an OW, the bonafide member here is chastised for their POV.

Everyone go to their own boards and stay the F off each others' board and let's get this site back to where there are no word police, no accusations, no character assassiinations or that mindless bullshyt crap about "cruelty, bitterness and hatefulness" because if you want to see the gold standard of cruelty, bitterenss and hatred...just read TOW. You won't freaking believe it. We got absolutely nothing on them in that catagory.

The whole idea of this site was for people suffering the fallout of infidelity with an OC could come and discuss without having the word cops censor their words, thoughts and POV, and find a way to recover their marriages, restore their families and hopefully, heal from the devastation.

Now stop the ridiculous, stupid mewlings about OC and stop acting like any logical information that protects a BS and BC offends your delicate sensibilties, causing you to cut open a vein for the OC like they are the only person who matters when they are not the responsiblity of the BS. It makes no sense! What is wrong with you people? Have you lost all sense of logic and proportion? The BS and BC are not the ones who caused all this heartache and misery so lay the F off and go away. These people are dealing with the worst possible thing that can happen to their marriage and family, suffering enormous pain and are scared shytless and worried about their kids, their home, their life as they knew it. Stop trying to make Lynn and others measure their words so the OW here don't get offended.

As for leaving the OC a buck in a will so that they cannot sue the estate is just good sense...it's not the BS's responsibility to make sure the OC doesn't get hurt feelings over it. If the XMM and BS want to leave something more to the OC, they can adjust the will at a later date if and when a relationship is estabilished. It's up to them. Wills are changed all the time. People have their reasons for how they divide their assets and it is none of the OW's business.

Why are the BS suddenly responsible for placating OC or OW when none of them ever gave a good goddam about any of you BS? They laugh at you, berate you, mock you, make fun of you, call you disgusting names, behave like whores and rally together encouraging each other to screw the XMM, chortle at glee at your pain and heartache, wish you every rotten thing in life and delight in your struggles as they call the BS and initiate D-day. They couldn't care less if your children are heartsick, embarrassed, disgusted, fearful, hurt, lost, feeling rejected, feeling the tension in the home, watching the BS sob their heart out, hearing the angry words, not having enough money to buy necessitites...I mean PLEASE, YOU PEOPLE....wake the F up.

Pops. I have enormous respect for you, but you are on the other side of this and very bonded with your child and you're taking generalizations personally and acting as if Lynn is abusing your daughter telepathically or insulting a child that has no clue what is discussed here. No need to be so thin-skinned since your situation is different in the sense that you and your wife are raising this little girl together in a huge loving family. TRUST ME...if you were a woman and you were where we are, you would feel the exact same way or dang close to it.

None of my rantings are directed at former WS's working on their marriage as they DO belong here. Former WS's are NOT OW.

The reason I posted this here intead on Private is that I want the OW here to read this. I would also like to offer them an alternative to MB and give them a link that would suit their needs better. www.gloryb.com

[ March 17, 2004, 09:52 PM: Message edited by: catnip ]

catnip I only read 1/2 of your post. I personly don't think I took everything that lynn said and slandered it. I did however take the facts that I wrote about. I think I was not the only either. As far as bs coming to tow well, we have quite a few that do come there and are more than welcomed. I in no way have insulted anyone for c or nc. In fact I never said that xmm must have contact as I don't care. If I have to I'll do it, but I'm not worried about it. What I was talking about was her cruelty and it was cruel! If you agree with what lynn said than maybe I had you all wrong. If you believe that someone should leave anyone 1.00 just to laugh then I guess I was wrong about you. The bs keeps on throwing in that the child concieved out of deciet, but that h helped with that. Hello! You've forgiven your husband. Is noone other than your husband able to change and see they were wrong? I did not bash Lynn, I just said that the advise she gives could get someone in trouble. It's the truth. I also said if you read it, that I do believe that the bs should protect her kids, but in a legal moral manner. I could go and lie about my income easily in order to "screw" xmm out money, but it's not right and I have to live with that. I have to do what's right, so should everyone else. That is all I said. Now pops said what I said, but because he is a bs it was okay for him to say it? I respect Pops and I respect FH for what they have accomplished. But because I'm the "OW" actually I'm the xow I'm insulting you?
also I can count at least 3 people over here who post over there at tow and even though I say what I feel I don't call them names, nor do I run them off until they start calling names because of there anger. I welcome a bs who can give me insight as well. If you can't grow and learn from each other than what are these things for?

[ March 17, 2004, 10:13 PM: Message edited by: needtomoveon ]

I have never bashed my ow, or 2 oc's. I do agree somewhat with Lynn and catnip. They give some forthright advice.

ember

[QUOTE]Originally posted by needtomoveon:
[QB] catnip I only read 1/2 of your post. I personly don't think I took everything that lynn said and slandered it.

=^^= Well, that then is the problem. If you read the entire post, you would see I said absolutely nothing about you or even mentioned the word "slandered" in relation to Lynn.

I did however take the facts that I wrote about. I think I was not the only either.

=^^= Which "facts" were those?

As far as bs coming to tow well, we have quite a few that do come there and are more than welcomed.

=^^= Oh yeah? Like who? Just the Wife? Pristine Beauty? They aren't welcome unless they completely conform, kowtow and make sure they don't tread on "thin ice" because it isn't their board. Fair enough. It ain't their board and I cannot figure out why these BS needlessly subject themselves to such abuse. But, welcomed? Ha! I have read enough to know that if a BS come there, she better come on her knees, measure and watch every single word and be a total Yes-man or the "posse" will come in an chase her off...unless she apologizes profusely and demeans herself completely.

I in no way have insulted anyone for c or nc.

=^^= No one said you did.

In fact I never said that xmm must have contact as I don't care. If I have to I'll do it, but I'm not worried about it.

=^^= I was speaking in generalities and not thinking of you specifically at all.

What I was talking about was her cruelty and it was cruel!

=^^= Hmmmm....protecting her children, her finances and her standard of living is cruel. Hmmmm....that's absolutely incredible. Obviously, most of these people who think this are reacting with emotion rather than logic or common sense. Seems like a lot of knee jerk bemoaning and wailing and gnashing of teeth over something that is simply put in place to defend her own.

If you agree with what lynn said than maybe I had you all wrong.

=^^= Just so no one gets me "all wrong", I absolutely defend Lynn's right to express her POV here on MB and thank her for having the guts to guide Newbies facing incredible devastation by instructing them on ways to protect themselves and their children from something that two incredibly self serving individuals did to change her life (and her kids' lives) forever. I certainly do NOT agree with the people who are here (who are not BS or former WS working diligently on recovery) with an agenda, preaching to BS's (of all people!!!!) about their OC's and how "cruel" we BS are to want to protect our own. It's nuts! It does not make any sense. The LAST thing any BS wants to hear right now and here in this forum (their "suppposed" safe haven) is how "neglected" and deprived the OC is because of something the BS is forced to do (because of what has been done to her) to take care of her own children and family...even her own WILL...for God's sake! It's here life and her business and no business of the OW. It is so preposterous for ANY OW to come here and demand equal time for her OC and to chastise any BS for doing whatever she must to keep body and soul together. The enormous crust is amazing.

If you believe that someone should leave anyone 1.00 just to laugh then I guess I was wrong about you.

=^^= Laugh? Laugh? Are you on drugs or something? Who the F is laughing? What is so f'ing funny about having to find ways to protect yourself and your kids? You think it's fun to see your life change so dramatically that no one feels safe, happy, or good anymore because of the OW and what she did and what the WS did and how they alone screwed over your entire family? The reason why the OW bemoan their OC is because they themselves feel guilty and know what they have done to their own child and are worried sick about how sad, upset, rejected, angry, confused, humuiliated, whatever (you choose the emotion) their child will feel because of what THEY have done, that the only thing they can do is sluff off the responsibility of their kid's heartache on some clueless BS. The OW is the one truly responsible for the effects the OC will endure. Not the BS. I just don't get this pretzel logic at all.

The bs keeps on throwing in that the child concieved out of deciet, but that h helped with that. Hello!

=^^= Yeah? So? We ALL know that. That's a really tired old lament and has nothing to do with anything we are discussing here. I don't know why you all drag that old thing out to beat it around like you think it's your "excuse" or ace in the hole when that knowledge is obvious and is a given and filed away under "personal business" within the marriage between H and W and something none of you are privy to. But that's not the point. None of the WS's are here to discuss these issues, so you all beat up on the BS and make us responsible for your kid by proxy and it is getting so incredibly old. You all are talking to the wrong person about your heartburn over what the WS did to you. We are dealing with it from the other end of the spectrum and it has nothing to do with you or yours. AND, the OC was conceived in deceit. So, what's your point? You can't argue the obvious.

You've forgiven your husband.

=^^= Sure. Primarily because he is not a member of the WS forum crashing this site like a hit and run driver slinging insults and nonsense then going back to his site and bad mouthing the BS, I guess.

Is noone other than your husband able to change and see they were wrong?

=^^= Where on earth is all this coming from? You must be working entirely on emotion here and taking everything I said in my rant personally when nothing is directed at you. I spoke in generalities, NTMO. Frankly, you are not a bad OW and I am not bothered by you being here and I'm not screaming at you to "leave this site" or telling you personally to get off out board, however, we as BS "think" differently than OW and OW think differently than BS. It's like oil and water, cats and dogs, north and south, east and west. The differences are obvious. That's why there are seperate boards. And just like none of the women on TOW like any of us with strong opinions voicing their agenda on TOW, I bet most of us are mighty uncomfortable with OW's coming here and calling us out for doing what we must to survive under the guise of accusations of cruelty or some other such nonsense.

I did not bash Lynn, I just said that the advise she gives could get someone in trouble.

=^^= Well, I think it is presumptuous of people to think that someone can have so much power that Newbies can't make their own decisions, don't have a mind of their own and can be so easily influenced to do something detrimental just because someone who is smart and strong says so. Debate, even unpopular debate and discussion, can be information that can glean some sort of solution that someone hasn['t thought of before. Frankly, my husband and I agreed to divorce to protect me from losing our house and my share of our equity from our OW (who is exceptionally aggressive) with great results. We still live together and the courts don't care enough about our personal business to hire a team of investigators and perform survelliance on our house to see if he spends the night. People don't need to get paranoid about doing what they must to protect themselves. They just need to be smart.

It's the truth. I also said if you read it, that I do believe that the bs should protect her kids, but in a legal moral manner.

=^^= What is so immoral about what Lynn proposes? Isn't her and her H's will their own business? It isn't anyone else's business. Least of all the OW/OC. Besides, nothing is more hypocritical to me than hearing an OW preaching "morals".

I could go and lie about my income easily in order to "screw" xmm out money, but it's not right and I have to live with that. I have to do what's right, so should everyone else.

=^^= No one is trying to screw the OC. The courts make sure they get all the financial information so your alarm about the XMM's income is just borrowing unnecessary angst since the courts make dang sure you get everything the OC is entitled to. In fact, the things I read on TOW leads me to believe that the reverse is true as many of them are out to screw XMM and they make no bones about how all they want is the cash and how much they get or are trying to get...there is endless discussion over there about money and entitlement. The truth is that "most" (and I know there are exceptions, but my OW sure ain't one of them) OW get enormous CS compared to what many XMM and BS can afford. Before 1990, many single parents got nothing and collection was not enforced. Rates were set low and percentages were equally as low. Now the CS percentages are so attractive, hell, I wish I had a little meal ticket to collect $1500 a month for me, too. My OW played the system beautifully and I bow to her incredible tenacity. However, I think that huge amount of money for OC is plenty...and a hell of a lot more than I ever received for my three kids (ZERO $)...and I do not need to make sure we include her in our will. If it takes a buck to keep her from sueing me after my husband dies when I am already grieving with my grieving kids, when the dust settles I can decide whether or not to offer a portion of the estate. But that is YEARS down the road and a lot can happen until then. We may change our minds...we might want to include her or maybe we will have developed a relationship with her by then or we might hit the lotto and leave her a huge chunk...wills can be changed as circumstances change. No one needs to get whipped into a frenzy about what we do during the first five eyars after D-day since those eyars are spent in recovery. Besides, if the OW is hitting us up for $1500 each month, she has more disposable income than we do and she should leave us money in HER will!!! Haha. Lighten up, NTMO. THINK!

That is all I said. Now pops said what I said, but because he is a bs it was okay for him to say it?

=^^= Apparently you did not read the entire post or you would have seen my statement to pops. Read before you speak, NTMO, then you will get the whole gist of it all.

But because I'm the "OW" actually I'm the xow I'm insulting you?

=^^= Sheesh. I never said you insulted me or anyone, NTMO. I am speaking in generalities and you are waaaaay too thin-skinned and self absorbed if you think this is all about you because it isn't. This is much bigger and broader than that.

also I can count at least 3 people over here who post over there at tow and even though I say what I feel I don't call them names, nor do I run them off until they start calling names because of there anger.

=^^= Well, that's good! It is much better if we can play nice. I don't know if it is ever possible for either side to call a truce of any kind but that's not really all that important. What is important is that both boards can say whatever they want without people from the other side mouthing off a lot of nonsense on the other's site. This goes BOTH ways.

I welcome a bs who can give me insight as well. If you can't grow and learn from each other than what are these things for?

=^^= If that's true, then you will hopefully eventually gain the insight into what the BS must do to protect her own without getting all sensitive about it and act like it is going to effect your own kid or something. EAch person is talking about their own situation and delivering their own opinion on ways they can protect themselves. They should be able to do this without being called cruel, hateful and bitter or accused of laughing at the OC (which I have never ever seen done here) Newbies need this information to make informed decisions on how to protect their children and these people are smart enough to take what they need and leave the rest. It isn't fair to underestimate people simply because they are temporarily confused and not thinking clearly because they are in immense pain.

NTMO...you're a good kid but seem to be reacting on emotion rather than thinking through the logic of a situation. Instead of reacting with outrage, consider that the BS is doing whatever is necesssary to protect her own and don't take what Lynn or me or others might say personally. If you are going to wade into BS territory, you have to expect that you are going to hear some stuff that you ain't gonna like. Lord knows I have to remind myself of this each time I lurk on TOW. I've stopped mouthing off my opinions on that site because I respect their right to have their own safe place. I can say whatever I want about it here...just not there. Good luck to you and if you post here just take it with a grain of salt and realize it has nothing to do with you personally...these opinions are just the opinions of the BS or former WS here. That's all. No mystery. No hidden agenda...just the obvious.

=^^= Well, that's good! It is much better if we can play nice. I don't know if it is ever possible for either side to call a truce of any kind but that's not really all that important. What is important is that both boards can say whatever they want without people from the other side mouthing off a lot of nonsense on the other's site. This goes BOTH ways.

=^^= As Bee and Myst and Chud and Jil and all the others on TOW who constantly and unceremoniously demanding BS to "get the F off their board" saying "this board is NOT for BS...go to MB, the "cult" and stay off our site with all the other Christians."

JM: Then how about going back and removing the names off of your post. That's not fair and you know it, and it will just open up a whole new can of worms. Being a mod on C&A over there, a LOT is tolerated - because I think that sometimes ALL sides need to be heard. Yes, if someone comes over and starts being rude and nasty, they get "poofed".. just like they would HERE. A lot of times you don't GET to see the posts that elicit those types of responses because myself or the other mod are usually right on top of it.
We don't have a *private* board like you do. Just about everything we say is out there for the world to see, comment on, ridicule, "spew" upon, or just read. If everyone could respect each other and realize that each situation is unique - then maybe we could all get along in some twisted sort of way.

And just for the record? I think leaving $1 in the will is like having the last laugh, and pretty nasty to do to a kid. Imagine if all you knew about your parent was that they hated you so much that they'd leave you $1 in their will? Leave $150, something.

I've stayed away from here because the "oldies" that I liked and respected are pretty much gone. I completely agree that everyone should protect themselves AND their children, but doing it in an underhanded way is just wrong and it reflects on what kind of person YOU (not directed at anyone in particular - it's just a general "YOU") are.

catnip,,,,,,,,,,,,,, so f'g nice tio see that you have f'g returned to our little f'g group. i oft times wondered how you were doing with your f'g education and new f'g vocation. now i will ask you "what the f is that?" must be the f'g kind of lanquage you pick up from our f'g educational system. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

i have not done much lurking or posting as the schedule around our house and the kids using the computer for homework and God knows what else doesn't leave me much time.

i started reading this thread to better inform myself about a conversation i was having with kt on the other site.

my posts here were in regards to a post from lynn where she replied to nycmedic on page 2 of this thread where she said: ........

What has me angy that you are here, even mentioning what is best for oc, an then talking about YOUR pain. KT is a good person. Kinder then I am. And let me tell you, when you come on here with your passive agressive bull****, it makes me mad. SHE is a good woman. A woman who has done far more for the oc then many in this situation. So don't lecture her about what is good for oc...........

i read nyc's post and didn't find it insulting or lectureing at all. mearly offering an opinion in a polite manor. and in response she recieved a post from lynn who in her own words staes that "what has me angry" and "it makes me mad".
you are an excellent writer and often use words that i need to look up in the dictionary. but go ahead and choose your adjective. angry, mad bitter, hateful whatever. they all fall into the same category to me, just a nail poundin, ex pot smokin, long haired 60's hs grad.

now from my limited experience in life when someone is speaking out of and or because they are mad they tend to be insulting and it comes off as bitter. i feel their are ways to debate an issue without the arguementive attitude.

i AGREE with many of the things that lynn has offered for advice. bs's whether male or female don't have and can't afford to sit around feeling sorry for themselves. they need to get their heads up and start to protect their families and interests.

but what does ruffle my feathers (and has also been noted by some much wiser men then myself such as K and JL) is her delivery.

now on to my being thin skinned? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> that my dear is a good one. the answer to that is hardly. i have been beat on, chewed out and belittled by professionals. nothing here even comes close. i in no way see any of lynn's tirades as personal attacks on grace or my family. i mearly use examples from my life with grace and (if you haven't noticed) many times my oldest son to illustrate points i am trying to make. i am trying to give a visual so to speak as i feel sometimes i write in circles.

to many it may seem that i have forgiven and moved past all the distain for om. well like many bs w's here. if i were standing on the edge of the earth gazing out into the vastness of the universe with om standing next to me. i would probably say something like "dude can you believe what an incredible site we are priviledged to cast our eyes upon". and with that i would give him a firm pat on the back hard enough to knock him over the edge and i would dazzle as i watched the magnificant sight of him falling into an endless void of space. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

point being that bw's don't have the royalties on detesting the f'g op. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

i know what this site was started for, bs's to vent and seek out others dealing with the same issue. but it has evolved to more and that is why i guess the private site was started, to give them a place to do the same without intervention from the other side. personally i don't mind ANYONE dealing with this issue coming here as long as we are all polite toward one another.

Leaving the oc $1.00 in the will secures the estate for our children. PERIOD. The oc is not my problem. It is not done to laugh at or as a game. It is done pure and simple to keep the oc from suing. PERIOD. It is a legal move. And, as a legal move is another piece of the hurt and mess created by oc mom and dad.

Good lord, the ow and the oc parents just proved themselves again, all they care about is oc and are worried about money, again.

The oc is entitled to support. True. That is it. OUR assets are jointly owned, and last I looked, oc is not part of my marriage. So it is none of oc business or ow business what financial decisions we make. If you see it as a slap in the face of the oc, what were you expecting?

I HAVE ALWAYS STATED TO GET LEGAL ADVICE AND TO BE OPEN AND HONEST WITH YOUR LAYWER. OW AND THEIR SUPPORTERS PROVE AGAIN THEY DON'T WANT EMPOWERED BW PROTECTING THEIR FAMILIES AND ASSETS.

An ow talking about morals???? What a joke that is. If morals were there in the first place, there would be no oc, and no discussion.

And YES, it is possible to forgive a husband, and protect my family and our way of life. The ow/oc needs and wants are not a concern of mine. If they are upset about decisions that we make, thats to bad for them. It's none of their business as to what we decide. Why would decisions be made with them in mind?

OW need to get over themselves. Go to your own boards and whine about how evil and mean and twisted the BW are. But here, I will keep on telling the BS how urgent it is to be proactive and protect your assets.

I do not laugh at OC at all. I would assume any person with a brain would figure out pretty quickly why they are not inheriting from a family he is not part of. Are the ow going to be leaving my children money? Doubt it. My children would not expect it either. Nor do they expect Joe Blow down the block to leave them anything. The oc, is not raised as a member of our family, and therefore will not be treated as such.

GET OVER YOURSELVES. Your child gets to get hurt and confused, just like our children. And this is 50% your fault. Not 100% married mans' fault.

[QUOTE] OW need to get over themselves. Go to your own boards and whine about how evil and mean and twisted the BW are. But here, I will keep on telling the BS how urgent it is to be proactive and protect your assets. [QUOTE]

Amen Lynn! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I totally agree with you & even though my situation does not warrant a lawyer & protecting BC I thank you for being to help those who need it. Notice I used the word "help", not counselor, enforcer or any other word that says you know all & spew evil as many others think.

I think that BS that come here are looking for help & support during a VERY traumatic time in their marrigae & they want to SAVE their marriage, so POV from OW count for what????

I think catnip summed it all up perfectly.

I appreciate everyone's POV. If it doesn't apply to me or I disagree, so what, I disregard it.

LynnG, suggests legal advice. She states to do things LEGALLY, so what if you disagree. She is not doing anything ILLEGAL. Is that what you are so mad about, that she can actually DO something since it is LEGAL?

No one is "getting screwed".

If a OW can go "go after" MM to get ALL that her child "deserves" then BS can definately LEGALLY protect everything she and H have, to provide BC everything they "deserve".

What is the difference?

And if you want to talk about what is unfair--let me fill you in--when they calculate and compare MM income to OW income (oh just so no ones panties get in a bunch I am referring to my OW and any that are on welfare) they only look @ income OW receives from actual WORK-----so OW "really needs the $$$"-HELLO-how about subtracting the fact that she is receiving food stamps, or rental assistance or a gov. check every month for her other child or even CS for other child? Shouldn't that be counted as some sort of income, it is $$$$ coming into her home that offsets her expenses.

MY children are an "optional" credit/expense into the equation and we get NO gov't. assistance but they tell me that I can get a job and then consider MY income so why not consider OW other sources of income!!!!!!!????

We have to fight tooth and nail for a judge to even consider OUR children but......OW get all the sympathy because her income is less than H and I's combined? ARE YOU CRAZY? WE have TWICE as many people in our household!!!!!

So don't you dare start trying to say how ANY BS is screwing some OC out of what they "deserve"!!!

Now I DARE you to talk to me about WHO'S GETTING SCREWED HERE and who is being immoral here when it comes to finances.

And yes, our CS seems low, NOW but it is comparative to what H makes, which, right now is not much. Originally it was over $500 and we were expected to live off the rest, which was $1500, for 5 people!!!!!!! now tell me who is getting SCREWED here!

Lynn is just protecting herself legally. Like someone else said, if OC is insulted that will be OW responsibility to explain. And if you really think logically about it, OC will most likely NOT be a little child anymore by the time MM dies, come on, they will be an adult who can form their own opinions by then.

It's not BS job to protect & be considerate of OC feelings. Just like it is not OW job to protect and be considerate of BC feelings. Would it be nice, sure but it is too late for that, if people were being "nice" and considerate we wouldn't be here, we'd be on the "romantic date board" or something!!!!!!!!!!!

Business is business and BS are now forced to treat their family and assests as business so that they don't lose everything they have contributed to and worked for because 2 people were selfish and reckless! Some have more than ohters to protect. So what!

I never ever said that bs should not protect there children. It never came out of my mouth. Nor did I say that they should leave anything to that child in the will. I said leave them nothing versus 1.00. It's just cruel. As I see it KT, you are struggling and I by what I've heard you say you've done it by the book. You've had a hard road. I also agree with you that her income should include her houseing (I'm in property management so I so agree) and food stamps and any money she gets from the state. I don't think her other cs should be considered, that is for her other children. I don't have a problem with protecting anyone as long as it's done with out hatered and without screwing someone over. Bottom line. I don't care what the situation is. But because we are on the other side of fence I don't expect anyone to see what I am saying. Lynn does have some good advise, I've never said she did not. In fact her and I agree that everyone concerned needs to have it legal. It is just the way she or I would go about it that I don't agree. As she said the oc is no concern of hers. That is so true. It is of her husband's though. Maybe legally he is doing the right thing as what the courts see, but morally that is just so cruel. And yes Lynn, I can talk morally. If your husband is a changed man so can the ow change. My God help you if you ever find yourself in a situation that you never expected to be in and you have someone bash you from one end to the other even after you saw what you did was wrong. I am going to drop this for my points are taking out of context and only part of what I said is being read. I see Lynn thinking what she has done to the oc as being funny and ha ha....I got the best of them. Sorry to intrude.

[ March 18, 2004, 11:08 AM: Message edited by: needtomoveon ]

I don't feel lynn said it was funny about leaving the dollar. If you leave 0 then they fight for it. If you leave at least 1.00. They can't fight for what is yours. I never took her to say leave all OC 1.00! Took the information at the COVER YOUR A GAME that we BS have been placed in. I believe the information she has given me is do thing LEGAL and protect yourself. Not all OW are the same and most are unsaved, uncaring, selfish, decietful, women who I feel don't deserve squat!!! They did what they did to them selves and make their bed so they should have to lie in it. As for the H they should be accountable also, and so they will by someone a whole lot higher than I. Just wondering what is the TOW? And where is it. I would like to see how some of these people think?. I think Lynn and others have helped the BS to get off the pitty pot and take care of things that we need to do. They have been there and done that and most who haven't have been screwed by the OW. It's funny OM just get to walk and let someone else take care of their problem and (MOST not ALL) OW just want to be there in the middle of your life. I know mine wants to be all up in our life.

The reason I think CS SHOULD be considered as income is:

1) they are considering that child as being OW dependant, but someone else is helping to support so then either consider the support OR count child as 1/2 dependant.

2) they consider MY income as support for my kids, lowering H obligation to them and allowing MORE for OC, so CS should be counted/included the same for OW or my income should NOT be included in the calculation.

But mind you we do it "legally" which you guys applaud, but so is Lynn. AND by us doing it "legally", it is by no means FAIR!!!!

Do you see my point? Lets make it fair ALL around. The way the system is now is soooo obviuosly unfair and biased it's just laughable.

The reason Lynn leaves $1 is because if they leave nothing then OC can sue and say OC was merely "forgotten" or that by being a "blood" relative, OC is "entitled" to something of the estate. This prevents that from happening.

That is ok for you to agree and you are free to read into it any emotion you like.

I resent when people say I am "still struggling". Like it's a bad thing. It makes me think, how can you tell when I don't, when I let OW get her way or what? What does that mean?

AND heck yah, I'm struggling! Why wouldn't I be? I expect to "struggle" with this for the rest of my life. Maybe it's just me but I cannot "just get over it", as I have also read as the popular opinion on TOW.

Some days I will "struggle" less and others days more. And I GREATLY appreciate the support and encouragement when it is more.

But am I somehow more "allowed" because we have C? Does no one believe Lynn and her family would have been going through the same bs if they had attempted C! She was smart and avoided it but she is a terrible monster because she did not UNREALISTICALLY think that it "would all work out" and OW would be so supportive of "daddy's" involvement w/ OC while staying w/ wife.

She has mentioned the same type of whiny crap that her OW has pulled and that is W/O C so imagine if there would have been C! They did not waffle on their decision that has worked for them.

I'm sure the situation like mine (and many others that attempt C) reinforce to her and H what a good and smart decision to have NC was for them.

I respect that and I wish I would have met someone like her earlier and would have even known about the legal separation thing too!

I think it is heartless and cold to tell anybody to "get over it". I have lived the oc drama and would never tell anyone to "get over it". It is something you learn to deal with.

And KT, yes,your story totally reinforces our choice of no contact. Not only that, but when I read the ow on here, intruding on a marriage building site to encourage anyone to consider the oc, that reinforces me also.

I see the BW on here as hurting and confused souls. I choose to be harsh and matter of fact. I would love to go to them and hold them why they cry. I would love to coddle them as they try to sort out what to do, etc. However, years of this has taught me that inaction is an action that will get you stomped again. I want to let these BW know that they will be ok. They will go on to wonderful lives. They will be happy. No matter what. But they need to do a few things first.

When you are in a car accident you go to the hospital. Who has time for that?????? When you learn of an oc, you need to get proactive and quick. Protecting assets, especially in the early days when you are not even sure what you will do. How many wives are thinking of divorce from day one? Plenty. So, get things done LEGALLY. And then decide what you are going to to with the marriage, contact, etc.

It drives the ow and their contingent batty. But who cares what they think. They have proven, on this board, over and over again, that their only concern is them the oc and what they feel they are entitled to. I on the other hand care only for my family, my children and their future. I guess that makes me a monster!! And of course the ow is some saint. Give me a break.

The ow can whine and fuss all she wants about BW and no contact and the amount of child support. She can cry foul about legal means to protect assets. Nobody should care. SHE is not sitting at home thinking "gee, I think I will not ask for cs, I would hate to disrupt the lives of the children in the marriage, I would hate to see them go without...." But they expect the BW to be concerned about the welfare of the oc? Sorry. This is the real world. And as mean and selfish as the ow (and yes MM) were to create this oc, it is them and them alone who own the mess. The BW is entitled to protect and should protect her children.

I wish they would get it through their skuls that the oc is NOT THE BW problem. Why is that so damm hard for them to comprehend? Or do they look at this poor innocent child and can't believe that anyone would be so cruel as to shun this child? Not realizing that the children of the marriage are dealing with thier own problems created by the affair. But to the ow, those children don't matter.

So I could give a rats butt if some ow, or ow supporter thinks I am mean. Their opinions mean squat to me. This is a site for Marriage Repair, and this area is for people, rebuilding a marriage and dealing with an oc. Last I looked it was not a site for OW to demand and discuss the evil BW who do not put the oc above everyone.
They have their own place. I do not go to their board (imagine how fast I would be deleted!!), and argue about the plight of the children of the marriage and how unfair it is to them.

The whole point of discussion on this board is how a couple can deal with an oc. Some have chosen contact, and others don't. Then we discuss the why, why not, etc. Some ow come on here and come unglued at the $1.00 in the will. I ask what part of that scenario did they grab? It was not the "....to avoid oc trying to sue the estate, thiking oc was forgotten, it assures that the estate CAN'T be sued by oc..." No way do they see that as necessary to keep the will binding, all they see is the amount of money the oc will or will not get. They could care less how upsetting it would/could be to the children of the marriage to deal with the death of a parent, and then having to deal with their fathers mistakes from his past. All they see is how upsetting it would be for their child. Well, I am making sure MY children will not be upset.

As for doing things legally: I get to go to a Fab spa, with a bunch of women. We are going as the guests of a BW who hired an attorney early along with her H to protect themselves as they waited for oc to be born. After months of being told they would have to pay this and pay that, the child ended up not being MM. They started to sue ow and she settled out of court. BW is blowing the wad on the women who helped her through that time. The law protected their interests. The SAME law that would protect oc and give oc the child support is also there for the BW/MM.

So pffffttt to those who think that any BW is wrong to protect herself, her children, her income, her lifestyle.

I guess I look at my twins cs as theres. What there dad gives me is a good amount and it is used on them. I don't go out and buy myself clothes with it, nor do I take myself out with it. It's theres and they use it. It's helps with living expenses but it's for them. It does not pay all the bills which in my state we have a shared living expense here. My kids are in dance too. They want to be in soccer, but have told him them activity at a time becasue we don't have the money to put them in more than one. I should not have my girls suffer becasue there cs was considered into my income and then they no longer get to go to dance, or can't have special something for doing all there chores and being good for that month. I'm very surprised that your income is considered into that with the ow. I do see your point on that to a degree. I also looked at the 1.00 in the will as a slap in the face. Not to ow, but oc. Do you think a sibling would think oh good buisness move. Leave a bit more if that is what the point is. But why put insult to injury. It's down and out cruel. Lets put this other senero on the other foot. Let's say I am married still living with h and because I wanted to get more money out of xmm I filed a seperation for the sole purpose of getting more moeny from xmm. I would be looked at as a money hungry gold digger, bitter ow using my child to p*ss off xmm and his wife and taking away from his kids. I think a lot of emotions are involved with these kinds of situations and that plays a lot into how we react over things. But I also see you KT as in a different situation as lynn. I agree that you should not pay for that child's private school. You don't even have your own kids in private school. She is asking for more than what your able to do with your kids. The same with the medical insurance. It's very sad that your kids are not covered and hers is. I've got a real problem with that. If she can afford to put her child in private school then she should have to be able to pay more for her child in regards to the necessesties in life as the medical insurance. Do you see what I'm saying? It's not that I see lynn as this horid person, I see her with her words taking out her haterd for the ow on the child. I would protect my kids as well, but would have to do it with what I felt comfortable with and could live with. Yes I would protect my own income as well. I totaly understand that. I see the oc as part of the mm and because we are on different sides of this we probaly will never see eye to eye. That would be with any situation though that could happen. KT, I never said you should just get over it. I'm sure as you said some days are worse than others and visa versa. If I said anything close to it, it would of been if your choosing to stay married then there are some things you have to accept, just like as the ow as to accept. Point blank. Emotions are emtions no matter who has them or what brought them on. Some people learn from there mistakes, some don't. AS far as contact goes....it's a personal thing. I think the more I've read on BOTH boards that really unless it's special cirumstances it does not work. Do I think it's best for the child, no, but what is worse? Having contact and being all streesed and angry, or having no contact and living in peace? I think living in peace is best. Things can be made up for.

whoo hoo lynn G!!

Wasn't there a poster on TOW who stated that the MM should provide EXTRA child support to make up for the emotional support he wasn't giving the OC???

The children in the home were getting his emotional support..and THIS should be taken into consideration when figuring CS???

I shake my head at the rationalizations!!!

Keep up the good work Lynn!!

[ March 18, 2004, 01:56 PM: Message edited by: abigailz ]

Cruel to who? The oc??? Once again, the oc is NOT THE PROBLEM OF THE BW or the BC. They owe the oc NOTHING.

Was it not cruel to the betrayed children to have to lose out on financial advantages cause of the oc??? How is this any different?

If the BC can't get braces cause of the amount of $$ to oc, isn't that a slap in the face to the BC? Good greif, get over yourself. The oc is going to be hurt because of what his mother chose for him, and that is the life of an oc. The children of the marriage get hurt because of what their father chose.

The "....slap in the face to the oc...." is once again thinking only of the well being of the oc, and not considering the welfare and best interests and feelings of the children of the marriage.

Why do I continue to bang my head against a brick wall? I guess because it feels so good when I stop.

Well forget I asked about the TOW board. Talk about hatred!!! O M G !!! These people are wacked!! No one from this board has ever put peoples feelings and what is right down like that. That shows me that MOST not ALL of the OW are after is hurting the xmm in whatever way they can and do whatever they can to keep crap stired up. Now more than ever I feel like saying PREACH ON LYNN AND OTHERS!!! And what ever way the BS is thinking about going get your self and your children covered first and foremost. These OW don't care about our feelings our children or what happens to us. They have the idea that our H stayed because we have children. And they tried to even the playing field and when our H still stay they can't figure out that the love us and they where just what they where. Yes our H cheated for what ever reason, but they are with their us and not them. And now we are the bad person for sticking with their decisions of NC or C. Maybe just maybe the WS doesn't want a reminder of the BIG mistake that he made in front of him everyday. And is now happy with what he had all along and sorry he ever feel for the OW deceitfulness of conceiving a child they never wanted anyway. Most of them just want the sex anyway because the BS was busy taking care of home, children, and bs coming from the WS. I'm sure having sex is much more enjoyable when you don't have to wash thier underware or pick up their stuff or listen to the paying of the bills ect !!! We (BS) are soooo bad because they messed up? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> Don't get that. And we are hiding behind the bible? Nope, just have a hand to help us through our times and make us stronger. I thank God that I have him and he is with me. And feel sorry for those who don't know what that is like! <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Want me to help shove your head into the wall???

Just kidding.

Yeah, this argument is old and going nowhere. You will forever think of the oc only. I will forever think of the BC only.

You're kidding like there's a flying monkey coming out of my rear end. And why don't you go back and read some of my old posts, Lynn? I think that the CS system is outdated and needs a major overhaul. I don't cry "poor me, poor my OC". Stop lumping all OW together. Some of us have grown up and moved on with our lives. And have gotten over the anger. Maybe you should try the same sometime? Might do great things for the lines on your face that seems to be all pinched up like you just swallowed a lemon whole. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Eeeew, Joshmom! Lovely visual!

If any of us went to YOUR board and just said what YOU just said here, Bee or Myst or Chud or someone else would come along instantly and say, "You better watch it...you're treading on thin ice here, Joshmom!" "You don't belong here!" "Go to your own board "cult" and "This is OUR safe haven" And then they would gang up and chase you off and PM each other what a joke you are and what a bytch you are and congratulate each other for saying somewhat clever nasty things to the "troll". See the double standard here? The hypocracy makes me crazy.

Yep, Yep, Yep.

I think men, (married or not, sperm donors or real fathers) have a "responsibility" to children they concieved. No arguement there, but some try to argue over what "responsibility" means.
***********
BUT you have to remember every CENT of CS paid is coming OUT of the household budget. IT is being taken away from the budget that was being used to create a lifestyle for the spouse AND the children. SO hello!!!!!!

Any $$$$ going out of the home is no longer available for the household budget. How do you make up the difference? Where does that $$$ come from? Do you really believe BS were getting so much of it? Any mother KNOWS that she comes last w/ needs and wants, we always provide for our children FIRST.

Every CENT in CS that OC receive can be considered a CENT that BC do not receive! AND when you factor in that many single moms are on welfare, no matter why, then percentage wise, she has a lower expense ratio per dollar.

Not many MM's households are on welfare which means EVERY CENT of expense, they pay for themselves.

Grandma is not buying my kids a pair of new shoes every month. No one is buying my kids a new school backpack every quarter. No one else is paying for my groceries, helping me with rent, paying our medical bills or any "uncovered" costs, or supplementing our household income in any way.

I have always tried to teach my children that material things do not matter. We shop @ the thrift store to reinforce this concept, we don't buy name brand clothes much less [name brand]food!

When things get so tight that I have to think, "is this injury bad enough to warrant a trip to the ER?", because we can't afford health insurance----there is something wrong with the system. When MY children have NO extra-curricular activities and OW mentions that she has to take OC out of dance because she can no longer afford it!!!!! Then I say---get a real FULL TIME job!
*********
Heck yah I'm angry! There are enough public services and programs out there to fully support any single mom. You can get rental assistance, a monthly gov't check, food stamps, FREE daycare, FREE medical coverage for you & child AND if child is on father's insurance then state coverage will pay your share of co-pays, WIC (which is private), you can go back to school (college)for FREE AND get FREE job training, PLUS CS!

We take full responsibility for our expenses and income. I am rallying and upset about the fact that many (not all) OW are NOT forced to take full responsibility for their financial situation much less anything else.
********
They tried to steal someone's H, when that did not work, they tried to steal an INNOCENT child's father and then when that did not work-------they make MM PAY!!!!!!by stealing income from his family.

Someone has just GOT to pay right? NO ONE is going to get off that EASY! MM should not get of FREE!!! If I HAVE to raise this child alone then MM has to PAY for it!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

MM was not forced to cheat, OW was NOT forced to comply, niether was OW FORCED to have and keep a child she could not afford.

BUT yet some try and convince a BS that they should AGREE to WILLINGLY give up $$$$ from their household budget and income, give up time w/ their H, that thier children HAVE to give up time w/ daddy for an "innocent" stranger!??? Then are insulted when they do not agree. ???

The only one who is being FORCED to do anything is BS and BC. So why do some of you get so upset when a BS is not going to allow herself to be FORCED into anything?
***********
I really do not think it is the $1 thing that upsets you because I think ANY amount of $$$ would not make up for the fact that OC did not have a father. Most will say, "it's not the $$$ that matters, it a child's right to a father". OK so if MM left OC $1000 or $10,000 it would not matter because OC only wanted a father, then OW might say, "OH MM is just trying to buy you off to get rid of his guilt!"

If you say it IS the amount of $$$$ then you prove that $$$$ is the only thing you really cared about. A slap in the face is a slap in the face no matter how soft it is!

OC did not have father, why? Because OW chose to have sex w/ MM and then have baby anyway w/o daddy and MM chose to do right thing by not abandoning family. DUH!

MM tried to correct mistake while OW compounds it and hurts others @ the same time.

AGAIN, if OW cares so much about OC having a father AND CS, they can give the child up for adoption THEN OC gets ALL the financial support they need PLUS a loving intact home!

That was a reply for her offering to help slam my head into a brick wall. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> It's just not worth it. And this IS an argument that will go on till the end of time. Everyone has their own opinions, thoughts, etc. on CS, contact, every aspect of it. I will admit that my response was less than mature. I lowered myself to her standards. Trust me, it won't happen again.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JoshMom:
[QB]

=^^= As Bee and Myst and Chud and Jil and all the others on TOW who constantly and unceremoniously demanding BS to "get the F off their board" saying "this board is NOT for BS...go to MB, the "cult" and stay off our site with all the other Christians."

JM: Then how about going back and removing the names off of your post. That's not fair and you know it, and it will just open up a whole new can of worms.

=^^= I wasn't aware that you are now a moderator here on MB too, Joshmom.

What can of worms? Is my calling out the obvious offending the offenders? I am hard pressed to be overly concerned about this. Why would this be a can of worms here? None of us here care what anyone over there thinks or feels...no one over there obviously thinks about or cares about anyone here. Naming names IS fair...you people have certainly named names more than once on your site...mine being one of them. Kitty Litter comes to mind (which I thought was funny and cute actually) and then there's my personal favorite...Cat [censored]...hahaha. So, puh-leeze! Don't talk to me about "fair" or I will have to laugh in your collective faces again since we don't have a red-assed "moon" icons or any of your lady-like "puke" icons to show you my assessment of your site and the members within. I think there are about six women on your site...maybe seven, that are the most "cruel, hateful and bitter" nasty gashes I have ever witnessed. You, Lady Joshmom, are not included in that nest of vipers. You are usually OK, fine, whatever. But, you are so way off here it ain't funny. Any OW coming here and chastising any BS for protecting her family is waaaay out of line. The crust, Joshmom, is amazing. If you think about this logically and without prejudice, taking your own personal situation out of the mix, you might come to realize that leaving the OC a dollar is only a legal and symbolic gesture to prevent the OC from waltzing in at a later date while the BETRAYED CHILDREN are grieving their loss and having to contend with a lawsuit from someone they never heard of before. Just ONCE...just ONCE, can any of you OW's for just one moment take into consideration what the BETRAYED CHILDREN have gone through, witnessed, endured and tolerated and been denied because of OW and OC. For ONCE, let us NOT think of OW or OC....let's just think of the BETRAYED CHILDREN and put away all the mewlings about the OC because the courts see to it that the OC gets significant CS in most cases. Wills can be changed as circumstances change. To come here and scold BS's for doing something to protect their own within the first five years after D-day is cruel, hateful and bitter in my book. I think all OW should give all BS a pass for the first five years and DEFER to her until she can clean up the mess YOU made within her family. (not meaning "you" personally...just generalities)During that time if the BS and OW can come to a reasonable and respctful resolution regarding OC and integrate OC into the family, THEN you can discuss if any provisions have been made for OC in XMM's will...until that time, back off.

Being a mod on C&A over there, a LOT is tolerated - because I think that sometimes ALL sides need to be heard.

=^^= Really? I only see any deference to BS when they come there groveling and agreeing with TOW and bad-mouthing MB. IF a BS comes to TOW and bad-mouths MB, then you guys welcome her with open arms...that's the only criteria to gain acceptance! Please direct me to just one thread where BS was "tolerated" without being told she doesn't belong there and to get the F off their board and go back to their cult with Dr. "Hardly".

Yes, if someone comes over and starts being rude and nasty, they get "poofed".. just like they would HERE.

=^^= I got "poofed" but not for being rude and nasty...I got poofed for telling truths no one wanted to hear. People get poofed here only when they are completely vicous and disrespectful...AND they have to be chronic.

We don't have a *private* board like you do.

=^^= You have your PM's. It's basically the same thing. All you have to do is set up your own chat room and you've got your private board.

Just about everything we say is out there for the world to see, comment on, ridicule, "spew" upon, or just read. If everyone could respect each other and realize that each situation is unique - then maybe we could all get along in some twisted sort of way.

=^^= Most post here on public rather than Private. Private is more for sensitive topics that could reveal someone's identity that might be dangerous or compromising to a BS. So you see at least 75% of what we discuss because we want to remain available to Newbies. You'd all go nuts if you read Private anyway. It would cause serious board wars. Haha...just kidding.

And just for the record? I think leaving $1 in the will is like having the last laugh, and pretty nasty to do to a kid.

=^^= Oh for crying out loud. Think what you want. I thought you were smarter and more pragmatic than that. You people have to stop with that tired old "nasty to the kid" crap because not only is it not so and stupid and ridiculous, but it ain't our job to make sure your OC is happy and comfy. We have our own kids to care for, help through the mess and comfort and love. Because of what the OW did to us! (and don't bring up..."uh, uh...what about what the H did??????" Yeah, yeah, yeah...we all know that and that's not the issue here and they are obviously NOT HERE to discuss it with you. And they are the ONLY ones you should be taking this up with...not the BS that were so devastated by what you did. Really, think about how ridiculous it is to even come here and mention it, scold us or berate us for YOUR OC, whose existance ruined our lives as we knew it. Take care of your kids, we'll take care of ours. You didn't care and still don't care about ours, so please, please, please stop demanding we care for yours (even though we probably do) Just stop force feeding us. We are all already financially suffering because of your kids...ain't that enough revenge? Doesn't that make you at least a little happy that we are miserable in our struggle to make ends meet?

Imagine if all you knew about your parent was that they hated you so much that they'd leave you $1 in their will? Leave $150, something.

=^^= None of the parents HATE the OC!!!! You sound like NTMO, who just rambles on and refuses to read, understand and retain anything. I was abandoned by my dad and survived. My son was abandoned by his dad and survived. My two step kids were abandoned by their motheer and they survived. WE all have scars for sure, but we are smart enough to align ourselves with the people who love us and not the people who don't. (The glass of water is half FULL) In the cases here, it isn't a situation of divorce like in my family...it is a situation of infidelity that is entirely different with entirely different dynamics. THINK, you people...THINK.

I completely agree that everyone should protect themselves AND their children, but doing it in an underhanded way is just wrong and it reflects on what kind of person YOU (not directed at anyone in particular - it's just a general "YOU") are.

=^^= No one here is being "underhanded". The law sees to that. Blame the courts for the dollar rule. Underhanded is when XMM works for cash and doesn't report it or changin identity. Hey!.....hmmmm.....

Haha...just kidding

Lighten up, Joshmom. You're a smart woman and you're a great mom and a really good person and everyone here likes you, so why are you all twisted up over something you yourself would do if the situation were reversed?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by pops:
[QB] catnip,,,,,,,,,,,,,, so f'g nice tio see that you have f'g returned to our little f'g group. i oft times wondered how you were doing with your f'g education and new f'g vocation. now i will ask you "what the f is that?" must be the f'g kind of lanquage you pick up from our f'g educational system. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

=^^= pops! You are so cute! F'g is easier and shorter that constantly typing out "freaking" or "fu**ing" to get a point across. My "writing style" yesterday was inspired by what I had been reading (two weeks worth) on TOW threads and I was all fired up and it was a parody of their language usage on the other site. Did I offend you, pops? I'm sorry if I did...I usually don't talk that way unless I am really worked up.

i read nyc's post and didn't find it insulting or lectureing at all. mearly offering an opinion in a polite manor. and in response she recieved a post from lynn who in her own words staes that "what has me angry" and "it makes me mad".
you are an excellent writer and often use words that i need to look up in the dictionary. but go ahead and choose your adjective. angry, mad bitter, hateful whatever. they all fall into the same category to me, just a nail poundin, ex pot smokin, long haired 60's hs grad.

=^^= As a former pot smoking, bra burning, war protesting, concert-going, macrame-ing Flower Child, I can identify with your being offended by someone's unpeaceful-like delivery. However, the days are long gone where we could all come together and burn incense and discuss in depth the mysteries of the universe, a euphoric world peace while listening to Santana or better yet...Dylan. Sometimes it occurs to me...what a long, strange trip it's been...how we have gone from there to here within a couple decades and not been able to find the answers that elude us is testimony that not much changes human nature.

Lynn's reactions/delivery/whatever...is just Lynn's way, IMO. Let's just put a warning label on her and let her be. MOST, if not ALL of the time, her information is invaluable. If that NY person hit a nerve with her, consider the "whys" behind it. Maybe she just wanted to nip a potential problem in the bud. My question is "why does it bother you so much?"

because they are mad they tend to be insulting and it comes off as bitter. i feel their are ways to debate an issue without the arguementive attitude.

=^^= Good luck, pops. I can't imagine anyone of us being able to maintain low tones and avoid an argumentative attitude while discussing these sensitive betrayal-related issues where we are so often "baited" by TOW. We have waaaay too many OW's coming here mouthing off for that to happen...hence, Lynn's reaction/delivery etc. Maybe she is a protective Mother Bear type looking out for here Newbie Cubs. I can understand this perfectly and in fact, I PREFER it to glazed over beaten puppies compliance, willing to endure abuse from people bearing ill will. I think a lot of us confuse "angry" with "bitter". If I pinched you in that soft spot under your arm, it would make you mad/angry for a moment because it hurt and becasue it surprised you and because you were caught off guard and because it was unprovoked. If I apologized, you would probably not hold a grudge (unless I did it again...hahaha), so therefore you would not become "bitter" over it. You would not be "labeled" bitter or cruel in your response. You were just temporarily and momentarily angry... and justifyably so. It's the same thing here...someone (perp) says something to piss someone (vic) off, they get mad, then the perp labels the vic as bitter! It defies logic.

If someone constantly pokes at the Puppy, the Puppy WILL snarl. If it looks like someone is going to take Puppy's bone, Puppy will bare its teeth. Cause and effect. In a perfect world, pops...in a perfect world.

but what does ruffle my feathers (and has also been noted by some much wiser men then myself such as K and JL) is her delivery.

=^^= I know, I know. You're entitled to get "ruffled" if you want to. I have heard this from many since she got here. But focusing on her delivery rather than her message clouds the issues entirely. Perhaps we should just accept that Lynn's a Bytch and realize she ain't about to change and be grateful that she lights a fire under Newbies frozen in fear and without direction and about to do something stupid...or worse, do nothing to protect themselves. Let's not get all whipped into a frenzy and get distracted from the message. Let's embrace Lynn's bytchiness! I've embraced mine! Hahaha. I think it's great. We need diverse, smart, interesting and passionate people otherwise this board is BORING!!!!!!!

now on to my being thin skinned? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> that my dear is a good one. the answer to that is hardly. i have been beat on, chewed out and belittled by professionals. nothing here even comes close. i in no way see any of lynn's tirades as personal attacks on grace or my family.

=^^= Oh, good. I was WRONG. Mea culpa, mea culpa. I deeply and sincerely apologize and I am not patronizing or blowing smoke here, pops. I sincerely mean it. I am sorry. I was wrong. You da man. I'm an [censored].

if i were standing on the edge of the earth gazing out into the vastness of the universe with om standing next to me. i would probably say something like "dude can you believe what an incredible site we are priviledged to cast our eyes upon". and with that i would give him a firm pat on the back hard enough to knock him over the edge and i would dazzle as i watched the magnificant sight of him falling into an endless void of space. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

=^^= Hahahahahahaha!!! I love it...Coca Cola spray all over my monitor. You crack me up. Thank God you still harbor those fantasies so I don't have to hate myself for mine.

The best defense is an offense, IMO.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by catnip:

You'd all go nuts if you read Private anyway. It would cause serious board wars. Haha...just kidding.

JM: It probably would. But that's why you have it. And why we have our PM's. You should check yours once in a while.

=^^= Oh for crying out loud. Think what you want. I thought you were smarter and more pragmatic than that. You people have to stop with that tired old "nasty to the kid" crap because not only is it not so and stupid and ridiculous, but it ain't our job to make sure your OC is happy and comfy. We have our own kids to care for, help through the mess and comfort and love. Because of what the OW did to us! (and don't bring up..."uh, uh...what about what the H did??????" Yeah, yeah, yeah...we all know that and that's not the issue here and they are obviously NOT HERE to discuss it with you. And they are the ONLY ones you should be taking this up with...not the BS that were so devastated by what you did. Really, think about how ridiculous it is to even come here and mention it, scold us or berate us for YOUR OC, whose existance ruined our lives as we knew it. Take care of your kids, we'll take care of ours. You didn't care and still don't care about ours, so please, please, please stop demanding we care for yours (even though we probably do) Just stop force feeding us. We are all already financially suffering because of your kids...ain't that enough revenge? Doesn't that make you at least a little happy that we are miserable in our struggle to make ends meet?

JM: I can understand the logic behind it. And I'm not looking at it from the view of an OW - I'm looking at it as to how the CHILD would feel. It's tough enough to explain to the kid that his father isn't around, and believe me, I don't badmouth him to him - he's got to make up his own mind when he's old enough to be told the truth.

=^^= Lighten up, Joshmom. You're a smart woman and you're a great mom and a really good person and everyone here likes you, so why are you all twisted up over something you yourself would do if the situation were reversed? <hr /></blockquote>JM: Ahhhhhhh Catnip. You and I could have some great debates, I think. And we'd probably really LIKE each other were we ever to meet IRL. And I'm not all twisted up about it. I think that maybe it's the "delivery" of it, and being lumped together with "all the nasty OW that are out to screw BW and their kids"..

Personally, I DO care about BW and the kids. I feel horrible for my actions and the result. There are many things that I could have done to make their lives even more miserable, but I'm above that. I knew where his two older kids worked, because it was the grocery store that I shopped at all the time. Did I EVER say anything to them? NO WAY. That's not my place. Did I EVER say anything to his W other than an apology? No. Did I ever say or do anything to be malicious towards them? No. Never called his house, didn't drive by on a daily basis (although I will admit driving by a couple of times - every time I wanted a reality slap - and that was VERY few times). Do I get CS? Yes. Is it under the state guidelines? Yes. Do I contact him if I have to? Yes. And I do it the way HE has requested - by sending mail to his PO box, not to his house. I have MOVED 1,000 miles away. I'm probably the "best" kind of OW to have (isn't that kind of an oxymoron though?) - one that leaves them alone. But if xMM were to die - the last thing on my mind would be to go after anything. I'd be sad for my son because he never had a chance to know his father. And sad for xMM because he never had a chance to know his son.

And KT - I'm sorry for helping with the huge threadjack. I think the CS system sucks, and you got the short end of the stick. I think it should be fair to ALL parties involved, and it's obvious that it hasn't been that way to you.

Exactly JM.
All these things that the ow does here I can't imagine doing. I don't bug them...he** when he calls me I don't even call him back or answer his calls. I have stopped going to certain stores or coffee shops that I've gone to forever before him just to avoid an avoidance.

KT, you mentioned me having to take my kids out of dance......I work a second job for anything extras for my kids. It's my choice so they can have the chance to do as there class mates do and so they won't be left out. I am actually lucky that I can work from home to make money too so my kids are not in day care all the time I work. I gave up for my kids just as much as the next mother. I work from home with one job (my main income) in order to be there for my kids and if there sick I can take that time off without getting into trouble.....and I do with out my own medical coverage or benifit job in order to do this. I have another job in order to give my kids the extra that they deserve.

To OW who are so hurt by the father only leaving $1 to OC in the will....well, that's what you selected for your child!!! You should have chosen an available father, not someone who already had a family. You choose a family man, you get sloppy seconds. Deal with it.

And here's another novel idea...NOBODY is OWED an inheritance!!! Not BC, not OC!! If a parent wants to blow all their money, so be it. If they wish to leave it to their survivors (some or all), so be it. An inheritance is not an entitlement...it's a gift. If a parent wishes to give their last gift to the children of the marriage only, that is their personal choice and their right!!

Oh NO NTMO----sorry, I was talking about MY OW mentioning taking OC out of dance class and she had never even told us she was putting her in.(the joint custody "thing" ---decisions are to be made by BOTH parents) Sorry for not clarifying.

Good job on the working from home deal! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> So do I, gotta make up for the lost income somehow. Yep, I resent it a little.

consequences, consequences.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by gardenbunny:
 To OW who are so hurt by the father only leaving $1 to OC in the will....well, that's what you selected for your child!!! You should have chosen an available father, not someone who already had a family. You choose a family man, you get sloppy seconds. Deal with it.

And here's another novel idea...NOBODY is OWED an inheritance!!! Not BC, not OC!! If a parent wants to blow all their money, so be it. If they wish to leave it to their survivors (some or all), so be it. An inheritance is not an entitlement...it's a gift. If a parent wishes to give their last gift to the children of the marriage only, that is their personal choice and their right!! <hr /></blockquote>I agree with you on that second paragraph whole heartly.

Thanks KT, I had just posted about my girls in dance and then you said what you said. Thank you again. Tell her take that money for private school to put her back in dance. Then put her in public school, or look for a charter school with less students close to both of you........that is free.

catnip,,,,,,,,,,,,,, me thinks what gives me the wedgie is that i am a softy for kids. always have been and always will be. i think that society is continuelly rewarding and turning the other chek for celebrities and sports heros (and i am using the term lightly) for the sake of the almighty dollar.

i have spent over 22 years coaching kids and not just because my kids were playing (i have coached many teams that my kids ween't even on) (one of the things that lead fh to feel that she wasn't important) because i just wanted to try and give them some good solid values to carry thru their lives.

maybe that's why i have been able to accept things in my house so well. i feel that grace needs those same values and someone other then her mom to run to.

i should not let that set me off but i see many posts that seem directed at the oc rather then the ow.

the one thing i know of and that ain't much is that you are not a smoke blower. i don't have time to read tow board and wouldn't if i did. i could care less what someone else thinks of me for my beliefs and views. if they don't like me then oh well i probably don't like them either so we are even. no harm no foul.

i do disagree with you when you said something about these are women who are not mindless people to be lead by a strong willed person. i know you remember such people in history as saddam huesan, hitler and that quack from georgetown. who would have ever thought there would have been hundreds of thousands and hundreds respectively of people to follow those jokers into history.

to add: don't worry either about the language. remember my daily life is spent on a construction site, i have had 3 kids pass thru their teens and next year i will have 3 (God help us) teens in the house at the same time.

[ March 19, 2004, 09:04 AM: Message edited by: pops ]

kt,,,,,,,, i am sorry either i missed it or jsut didn't realize that you had JOINT custody.

that changes the whole story for me. i would be documenting every detail of ow antics and your visits with oc. good and bad as best you can from the third party point of view. then i would use that imformation in court and if ow continued her garbage i would persue primary PHYSICAL custody. is there a difference in your state as to physical and legal custody? do your court papers spell out a solution for disagreements such as mediation? or is mediation even available thru the courts for you?

i am not sure how things work in your state but here in ca they have 4 types: primary physical, joint physical, primary legal and joint legal custody.

fh's court order gives her and om joint legal and gives fh primary physical. and what that means here is that grace's primary residence is here in our home and we will be the ones making choices such as you are battleing with on the school issue.

what joint legal gives om is the right to seek medical services for grace should she need them. he doesn't have to find fh or have fh send a medical release note with him everytime he has a visitation.

Joshmom, isn't your oc older? Then why would an ow feel the need to come and whine on a boad specifically designed for MARRIAGE BUILDING and the discussion on how the MARRIED COUPLE can deal with an oc?????

This is not a board on how to molly coddle the poor oc, I believe that is over on TOW.

THIS is to help the couple decide how they are going to deal with this and what they can do. Cause yes, THEY do have choices. Just as YOU chose to bring a child into the world without a commited father. THEY have the choice to say "oc is not going to be part of our lives.." THAT is a choice that THEY can make and it is none of your business if and how they chose to do that. THEY are working on the marriage and have chosen to stay together. THAT is none of your business. What THEY chose to do with THEIR money is none of your business.

You would rather they all cower and forsake their children all for your childs benefit. No way. The children of the marriage need a voice and need to be protected. They are the ones that matter to the BW. Just like you don't consider the harm done to their children, they should not have to consider your child.

I think you need to remember where you are. Your selfsih oc spouting crap is not warranted here. How does the welfare of the oc even remotely tie in with their marriage? It doesn't. The oc is inconsequential to the future of the family.

Pops, we are also in CA.

The way you explain "joint" is exactly the way the mediator explained it which is why OW agreedH & OW have JOINT legal & physical---primary residence w/ mother.

We consider ourselves "very" involved in OC life right now, which is also why we don't take the NC idea/decision lightly. AND why we want to assert our (H's) rights and get so upset w/ OW making decisions w/o regards to H opinion or consent.

If we really thought it was possible we would honestly go for FULL custody. I know that is not possible since no one would see OW as an unfit mother-------just a pain in the A$$ and a whacko!

When we first "entered into" this madness, not knowing OW was really against it, we considered how "most" people have visitation, every other weekend w/ father. While convenient we thought it just plain absurd. How can you be a father and bond w/ your child when your time is only on the weekends and only 2x a month?

We let OW know up front we wanted MORE than that and would keep trying until we got @ least %50. That is when all the trouble began.

As we tried to be sensitive to OW and OC needs for each other and just getting to know us, we slowly incorporated OC into our family and lives more and more, hour by hour. OW then started to hold back more and more wanting us to see OC less and less, on OW terms and times only.

In the very beginning it was co-operative, I will admit, but as soon as OW was excluded from the visits and we started asking for more time--------uuurrrrttt!-------it all started to come to a crashing halt!

That's when the games began, requests by OW for H to come and "visit" w/ OC ALONE, w/o family and of course wife. "Why can't you come and spend some time w/ OC alone?, YOU are her father. OC is YOUR responsibility." Ignoring the facts that although OC is not related to ME, she is related to siblings!

The accusations by OW began, we were "lying" to OW and now she did not trust us. Everything OC said was always TRUE and we were just LYING. On & on, then accusations that OC was becoming emotionally unstable, trips to "counselors", it was ALL our fault because we were in OC life, OW would tell the counselors this. OW would agree to specific times to drop off OC then would come an hour late and NOT let us make up the time w/ OC. IT was so stupid.

OW saw nothing wrong w/ her behaviour. Then the real cat fight began between OW and I, it was ugly and my children paid for it. Don't worry I learned from that. She started to bring up the "past"....no reason for it, unprovoked....we honestly should have ended it back then. I won't forgive myself for putting MY kids through that.

But we stuck it through and here we are now. In the same predicament just deeper in.

So....we have another appointment w/ another lawyer in a few weeks.

Then we will see how OW reacts. I just can't wait until a judge ORDERS OW to OBEY the order and actually ENFORCES it and OW realizes that she CANNOT just do what she wants and whether OW likes it or not---MY H is OC FATHER (which OW CHOSE!)and he has RIGHTS which we fully intend to LEGALLY assert!

Catnip, I have missed you!! I love the way you write.

I am protective of people on here. Watching KT working through her life and the oc is inspiring. She is one lovely woman. Her commitment to everyone, at her own expense is heartwarming. When the ow came along with her tale, it irritated me. Here KT is, honest, trusting and trying to deal with huge, like altering events. Then THUD, another ow comes along. I did get angry. I feel very protective of the BW on here. I see KT moving forward, I see her on weekend getaways, I see her enjoying her life. I just know that no matter what she will survive and 10 years from now she and her family will still be intact and happy.

As she processes this, I just don't see the need for anyone to be on here whining about what is best for the oc. It just doesn't fit. Months of dialog and discussion about KT's dilema, what is right, what is wrong, how she feels, how her husband feels, how her children feel, all of that is just shoved aside and the ow are only worried about the impact on the oc????

HELLLLOOOO do they NOT read? Can they not see what is going on? How people are effected?????? Can they not understand that harm and the hurt that others are enduring?????

THAT is where I get protective of these BW here. They are suffering and trying so hard to understand and all the ow types can see is the harm it will cause the oc. Forgetting where they are.

So I do turn into a bytch when I see this. Can you imagine the reaction if a BW went to TOW and whined about the plight of her and her children? Good lord, the place would start smoking........So why should the BW have to put up with ow on here whining about the OC?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by LynnG:
[QB]
Can they not see what is going on? How people are effected?????? Can they not understand that harm and the hurt that others are enduring?????

=^^= Mother Bear. I understand your frustration but it ain't gonna change. We have had these tired dialogues for years...same topics, different players...and sometimes the same players. Just like people should try to accept and tolerate your "delivery" because it is based in pure motives, I guess we have to accept that OW will always crash our board and acknowledge that the differences between BS and OW are carved in stone and it will always be that way because of the dynamics of it all. No one will ever change anyone else's mind, but sometimes we come to understand, respect and make peace with each other from the "forbidden zone"...especially oldtimers from both sides. The more reasonable ones anyway. Joshmom is one of them and while we have certainly had differences, she is usually reasonable but can get fired up and emotional like the rest of us.

OW will always come here and post and perhaps start board wars becaue it comes with the territory. I think the reason why we hear from OW at all is because they mostly can't tell off XMM and perhaps try to go through us...like telling us off "in effigy".

THAT is where I get protective of these BW here. They are suffering and trying so hard to understand and all the ow types can see is the harm it will cause the oc. Forgetting where they are.

=^^= Well, they are your cubs, and I am so glad you are the way you are. We need a Mom to take care of the Newbies in pain and direct them with tough love because they get enough placating and sympathy elsewhere. They need strength and direction and they desperately need to care for themselves and their own and not get complacent...or they could lose everything.

So I do turn into a bytch when I see this.

=^^= Thank God! Newbies get plenty of soothing coddling here (which they also need) but they need reality too, and that's where you come in. Just know that your delivery can alienate the other litter mates and there will be times when you can tone it down or turn up the heat depending on what is appropriate at the moment. I for one am OK with your delivery even if you make me wince sometimes. I just skim over the tough parts (denial-avoidance-hahaha) and go to the message. I hope others will just take what they need from you and leave the rest. If we can tolerate OW's coming here and mouthing off, we should certainly tolerate your delivery, I would think. But then, that's me...forever reasonable. Haha

Can you imagine the reaction if a BW went to TOW and whined about the plight of her and her children?

=^^= Well, it's been done with miserable results. They always hand us our asses as they escort us off their site with verbal assaults, names and language, but hey, it is their board. They could all use a collective charm school, but who am I to suggest it? Valiant ones have gone before us in an effort to extend the olive branch, Troublemakers go to mix things up for fun (not nice-like poking that puppy) and then there are the Know-it-Alls like me who have gone there to try to educate (becaue I am so dang smart) and offer logical solutions without success. Kind of like petting a bobcat and getting bit...something I ain't about to do again because it just gets poofed anyway.

So Mother Bear, look after your cubs.

Catnip =^^=

[ March 19, 2004, 12:20 PM: Message edited by: catnip ]

LMAO Spewing diet coke at screen. That was hysterical Catnip!! You should really consider writing a book, using your tone!!!! It would be informative and humorous.

I guess my tough delivery annoys plenty! But I love my "cubs". I will wear my "mama-bear" title with pride!!

It's to bad this wasn't a "talking" sight. My delivery is actually more droll then tough. Actually, one thing I learned after going through everything I did, was to be tough. My husband laughs at me, I do not appear as a tough woman at all, but when pushed, I do bite back.

When we bought a new car, it was just a complete lemon. I mean this thing barely ran. So we are at the dealers, they are going to replace it, and had the nerve to tell us what the delivery fee would be. My husband and I were sitting there and I like "WHAT?". I am not a "yeller", I just stood up and put my nose close to the salesmans face and said CALMLY "your company will have that car here on Tuesday, until then, I will be driving a loaner, when we come to pick up the car, I will come in and get the paperwork and the keys, the delivery fee will have to be worked out between this dealership and the company..." Funny thing, the deal was done. I did pick up that car and all was well. I learned a long time ago that yelling, getting hysterical, crying, whining will get you absolutely nowhere and fast. Whenever you negotiate, or are dealing with any major event, calm and cool always prevails. And that my friend, was a life lesson learned the hard way!

But you really need to think of writing a book. I just love the way you communicate.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by pops:
[QB] catnip,,,,,,,,,,,,,, me thinks what gives me the wedgie is that i am a softy for kids. always have been and always will be.

=^^= Well, if that isn't the most obvious statement I have heard all day! And that's why we love you so much. And it is why you have a tough time with Lynn. The ironic thing here is that you two are amazingly alike in the sense you are both so protective, but coming from two polar opposite styles. Your style is gentle and all encompassing while Lynn's style is comes through like a cannonball on Richmond. But you both hit the mark and desire to protect.

maybe that's why i have been able to accept things in my house so well. i feel that grace needs those same values and someone other then her mom to run to.

=^^= You and K have the opportunity to live with your children on a day to day basis and the XOP, who are either not part of the equation or they just don't interfere, give you the opportunity to live your lives normally. It's just not the way it is when the women are the BS, I suppose; rarely are we able to bond with OC because of the contention we see here every day on these boards. Unfortunately, that's the nature of the beast. It seems to me that the men who have custody and no interference from the OP have a MUCH easier time in accepting the OC simply because of geography/location/daily interaction and a million other situations conducive in recovering the M and making a happy home for the family. Eventually. I know how devastating all this is at first and the adjustments are astronomical and the pain is horrendous, but once the dust settles, you fall in love with the child and he/she becomes yours in all the areas that matter most and soon it is business as usual...blessed normalcy.

i should not let that set me off but i see many posts that seem directed at the oc rather then the ow.

=^^= It is just your perspective....really. Really, really...to quote Shrek. But I promise on my cat's life that you get the buzzer on that one and tell you that you are absolutely wrong on this one. It might "seem" that way when the rage or grief grips someones' heart, but it is usually just a reaction and no one is beating up on the OC...in fact, the OC doesn't read here nor does OC have a clue about what is being discussed so, like you say, no harm, no foul. I can guarantee you that not once in all my years here have I ever seen any poster say anything remotely negative against OC (except me in a major grief stage that I regret and didn't really mean) in the beginning right after D-day where they might say that their lives would have been easier if OC never existed...which is undeniably true...not a slam, just the truth. Life WOULD BE easier if OC never existed. But OC DOES exist and everyone has to accept it and make the best of it. And I maintain this is much easier if you are a man who has day to day custody and the child is part of the family. Through the years, after some recovery and healing, the BW usually developes care and concern for the OC even though they have never met, never bonded, but there is still that pull to want life to be good to this little kid whose circumstances of birth had nothing to do with them. But, for BW's, there usually ain't much she can do...plus most of the time, as evidenced here, the OW are usually combative or problematic and difficult to deal with. I think women are just this way and only maturity can resolve these differences.

the one thing i know of and that ain't much is that you are not a smoke blower.

=^^= (blush) Thanks.

i could care less what someone else thinks of me for my beliefs and views.

=^^= To know you is to love you, pops. I love your POV, too....it's part of the circle. And necessary.

i do disagree with you when you said something about these are women who are not mindless people to be lead by a strong willed person. i know you remember such people in history as saddam huesan, hitler and that quack from georgetown.

=^^= Ahhh, yes, Jimmy "Kool-Aid" Jones! Scary stuff. But then, he had months and months and months to work on these people and have sex with the women to create a mesmerizing bond (he must have had a trick pelvis) to lead them to "drink" their way into oblivion. But, I think here on this site, Newbies have just temporarily had the emotional [censored] kicked out of them and they are doubled up with confusion and grief, but that's only temporary. Even at my lowest point, I did what I needed to do for me. I red everything here, listened to advice, but ultimately I did what fit my particular situation. I guess I give people more credit for being able to weather the uglies and get past it in time. Hitler's Germany was massive mind control but it didn't happen overnight and Hussein had his thugs spent decades murdering and torturing innocent citizens, so naturally they comply...or die.

who would have ever thought there would have been hundreds of thousands and hundreds respectively of people to follow those jokers into history.

=^^= I know. The world is an evil and frightening place while at the same time the most incredible and beautiful blessing filled with wonderful and amazing people. Such a paradox. But, no one on this board is THAT powerful to manipulate Newbies in crisis into doing something destructive...quite the contrary. In fact, Lynn's strength is a comfort to them. She validates their grief and justifiable anger while guiding them into protecting their children and themselves. I have never ever seen Lynn give dangerous or unsound advice. It is always logical and well thought out. Just because she is a strong personality does not make her a dictator capable of creating a cult of mindless followers.

to add: don't worry either about the language. remember my daily life is spent on a construction site

=^^= Aaaccck! So now my words have regressed to the point of being compared to blue collar discourse. Well, that's just f'ing wonderful. My construction mechanic husband and I can grunt at each other over dinner while we scratch ourselves...hahahaha. What's so hilarious is that my husband's language has been a bone of contention for 25 years and somethng he works very hard to refine. But, sometimes the boy just can't help it. After spending eight hours a day with his cohorts, he comes home with jokes and language that is quite blue (and often hilarious)

BTW...you asked about school in your earlier post to me on this threadjack, and I am here to tell you that I not only passed my course, but successfully passed a test with a decent grade in a test that only 15% of the students pass the first time out...and I passed it on the first try. Yyaaayyyyy! Yippee! Thanks for asking so I could brag. I was so sure I failed that when they told me I passed I didn't beleive them. The exchange in the office had everyone laughing; it was hilarious.

Cat =^^=

I personally like the way lynn posts AND what she has to say. I can't stand when people turn into a doormat in situations like this.

For every person that doesn't like it, there is another who does. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

[QUOTE]Originally posted by LynnG:
[QB]

I guess my tough delivery annoys plenty! But I love my "cubs". I will wear my "mama-bear" title with pride!!

=^^= Good. It is appreciated...even if you make me wince sometimes. Even if you make pops appoplextic with heartburn. Just for pops sake, perhaps we could both turn down the volume. I don't want him stroking out or anything.

It's to bad this wasn't a "talking" sight. My delivery is actually more droll then tough.

=^^= Really? I love droll/dry. Bipolar is that way and he is so hilarious, he should do stand up. Very clever...I plageurize his material a lot on this site. We're f'ing ridiculous people and laugh our butts off all the time. It was such a relief to have laughter come back into this house...so healing.

I do bite back.

=^^= Goodness! What big teeth you have! Goldilocks and the Three Bears, or is that Red Ridinghood? Ooooh, that's right! The Bear thing was the bed too hard, porridge too cold and all that nonsense.
Kind of like the Monk who just joined the Abby and took a vow of silence. The Head Monk told the "Newbie" that once a year he could speak two words. After year one the Head Monk said to the Monk, "Well, it's been one year, what are your two words?" The Monk said "Bed hard." The second year the Head Monk says, "It's time for your two words, what are they?" The Monk replies, "Food bad." Hmmm, OK. Another year goes by and the Head Monk asks, "What are your words this year?" And the Monk responds, "I quit". The Head Monk looks at him and says, "I'm not surprised. You've been complaining ever since you got here."

I am not a "yeller", I just stood up and put my nose close to the salesmans face and said CALMLY "your company will have that car here on Tuesday, until then, I will be driving a loaner, when we come to pick up the car, I will come in and get the paperwork and the keys, the delivery fee will have to be worked out between this dealership and the company..." Funny thing, the deal was done. I did pick up that car and all was well. I learned a long time ago that yelling, getting hysterical, crying, whining will get you absolutely nowhere and fast. Whenever you negotiate, or are dealing with any major event, calm and cool always prevails. And that my friend, was a life lesson learned the hard way!

=^^= I like it! That was very effective not to mention your ability to keep your blood pressure from skyrocketing.

But you really need to think of writing a book. I just love the way you communicate.

=^^= I've been writing a book for the past three years and almost done. My buddy Popeye wrote the Other Child which is a compilation of case studies and very different from my book which is a story with a lot of influence from people on both boards, some situations might strike a chord with the reader if they are members, but changed in ways that would quell any recognition. It's a lot longer and more in depth but offers no solutions unless there is something in there that might correlate in some way with someone's circumstances and be helpful. It's pretty dramatic too. Lot's of tears...lot's of stuff that is politically incorrect because I like to stir stuff up. And funnier than hell. A lot of my stuff is from my postings and threads through the eyars...so glad our old posts are archived on Read Only. Probably won't go to the publisher for another year at least becasue it's so scattered.

[ March 19, 2004, 01:46 PM: Message edited by: catnip ]

kt, do yot really want OC in your life forever? Are you ready to open your heart to OC, and really accept OC into your family for life?
What you said bothers me, "Then we will see how OW reacts."

Is your H pushing for contact, or are you?

I pushed for contact, and 1 OC came to visit for a week. All truth was brought out to siblings. They all met OC, who was 10 yrs. old at the time, 1996. No contact of siblings with each other since. H and I have had no contact contact since 1996, and are trully in love with each other again.

Can you bond with this child for life? I know I could not because of too much resentment. But, if my H had wanted contact, I would have tried. H wishes NC.

If either OC comes knocking on our door, I will welcome them in. So will H.

kt, I at one time wanted contact. Please think twice if this is really what you and your H want.

Make sure you want contact because it will benefit all the children involved. Do not want contact for revenge purposes.

I wish you well. I say go for it, if this is what you want.

Everyone on this board knows H and I have no contact by choice. I posted the reasons on 12-30-2003, if anyone wishes to read.

ember

Kt~

Since ember opened the door...

I have been wondering why you continue contact? I've wondered it awhile, but especially since reading your 1st post on "New Member w/ yet another sad BW/OC story" thread.

You said the following:
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> We decided on C. Let me tell you that was the 2nd biggest mistake of our lives.(#1 was H A) <hr /></blockquote>Please don't take this the wrong way. I don't fault you for viewing C w/ your step child as a mistake. It clearly has been difficult on you, your H, M, and your children. However, I believe your statement speaks volumes. In fact you make a perfect case in the entire post (from which I took the quote) for not having contact.

To me, contact or no contact is a very private, personal decision to be made by the married couple. Only the two of you know what you, your M and your family can withstand.

I do think though, once a decision is made, either for or against contact, that we need to make the best of our choices. Try to make it work. If it doesn't work, is hurting all parties involved, and is considered a big enough mistake to rank 2nd only to the adultery itself, I believe the time has come to consider NC.

Just my thoughts...now back to my corner for now. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

~ad

FIRST: the reason I wrote "how OW reacts" was in referance to OW taking C seriously. To see if she reacts by continuing her "bad behaviour" or finally accepts that she does NOT control EVERYTHING and has to share OC.

SECOND: H and I have decided that this will be our very last attempt @ making C work. IF by going back to court and making our custody agreement as "bullet proof" as possible, OW STILL tries to do things that are against it or tries to hurt me or my family in any way (usually verbally w/ comments and lies about A w/ H) then that will be it. We will walk away knowing we "acted like adults", did the "right thing" and tried our best but will no longer subject our family to OW anger & immaturity.

It will be OW fault and responsibility that OC will no longer have her father physically in her life.

No, it's not out of revenge. If I wanted revenge it would not be like that.....I'm much more creative. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

@ the same time w/ revenge being a topic, I think OW is trying to purposefully hurt us to make us want to "quit" or else w/ the mind set that OW will purposefully make sure our lives are miserable too. I don't think this is very fair much less moral either. I do think children need both parents, I don't agree that this is the best way to achieve it but H and OW chose that not I.

The reason we stay w/ C is because we are here now. It has been 21 months since we met OC. Although I regret it--we are here NOW.

When H and I decided on C we had NO idea OW would be so mean, nasty and contentious. OW had stated years earlier she wanted "nothing" so when OW decided to sue for CS, we naively thought that it meant she wanted OC to know her father too. WE were wrong. Whatever OW reasons it was not to provide OC w/ a father and DEFINATELY NOT w/ an entire "other" family!

We made it clear to OW when C began that we were "in this" for good. OW kept harping that she did not want to see OC "hurt" yet OW was the one who kept pushing us to see OC less and less.
********
I personally think OW does these mean things and pushes our buttons to purposely push us to quit so OW can "prove" what a horrible monster H was/is. OW side of the story that she has obviously been telling her friends & family all these past years has done a good job of that already and absolves OW of any responsibility for this mess.

But then how can a horrible "monster" be a "father" to your child, niece, or granddaughter? How can someone your daughter/niece/grandaughter adores/loves/and calls daddy be a monster? What does that then say about you to think that? It's hard to reconcile the 2.
**********
I am not a vindictive, bitter BS, so I do care what happens to this OC even if I can't say I "love" OC.

Even though we really can't afford a lawyer, we are going to try to borrow the $$$ to make this work one last time. I guess, technically we could call it quits now since we ahve done everything "within our means" already. But if we can borrow it we will.

When I got the email from OW last week,(& susequently flipped out <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> ) H did say "That's IT!" but then I think, "ok let's think rationally and not make any decisions out of anger."

Because of all that has transpired these past 21 months I advise NC, to avoid all this CRAP! It has not been worth it.

Yes, OC has a "daddy" but I don't even think OC really cares or it really means that much to OC. OC does not consider us "family". OC family is OW family and OC other 1/2 sibling from mom. Maybe that could change in the future, I don't know.

I think for OC, our "home" is somewhere OC HAS to go, not necessarily somewhere OC WANTS to go. OC is too young still to understand but.....who knows?

All I know is that it has been more hurtful, sorrowful and negative than positive so far and I don't really think I want to wait 10 or so years for the "rewards" of all this. My children have childhoods to live NOW.

So still we endure, hoping that it really is in the best interest of "innocent OC", regretting the fact that it was NOT in the best interest of "innocent BC". But we are here NOW, really trying to make the best of it.

I hope that clears that up.

I'm not offended by much of anything...... Xcept MY pain in the A$$ OW thinking I'M the equivalent of "just a babysitter" to OC!

kt, I am very sorry for your pain. Our situations are so different. I have no advice.

Wishing you well,

ember

<blockquote>quote:<hr />OW had stated years earlier she wanted "nothing" so when OW decided to sue for CS, we naively thought that it meant she wanted OC to know her father too. WE were wrong. Whatever OW reasons it was not to provide OC w/ a father and DEFINATELY NOT w/ an entire "other" family!
<hr /></blockquote>When she sought CS, did she also state she wanted contact between father and child?

Could her reasons possibly be simply because she needed the CS, but was actually hoping for and willing to remain in continued NC?

If she never would've come out of the woodwork after those first 4 years, do you think you and your H would've sought her out to pay CS and/or seek contact w/ the child?

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> So still we endure, hoping that it really is in the best interest of "innocent OC", regretting the fact that it was NOT in the best interest of "innocent BC". <hr /></blockquote>Again, I have to ask, why continue C? If for no other reason, it is not in the best interest of your children. Why would you endure contact w/ your step child in hopes of it being in her best interest at the expense of what is in your children's best interest?

From all I've heard you say, I've not seen that contact is in anyone's best interest, not yours, not H's, not your children, not OC.

That's just my opinion though.

kt,,,,,,,,,,,

............
Yes, OC has a "daddy" but I don't even think OC really cares or it really means that much to OC. OC does not consider us "family". OC family is OW family and OC other 1/2 sibling from mom. Maybe that could change in the future, I don't know.

I think for OC, our "home" is somewhere OC HAS to go, not necessarily somewhere OC WANTS to go. OC is too young still to understand but.....who knows?
...................................
i told you that exgf was just as bad as any ow i have read about here. when i would show up to pick up my son she would grab him up from the play ground by the arm and start yelling at him "come on you have to go". this of course would start him crying. i would just pick him up and cuddle him and try as best as i could to calm him down.
most always by the time we got in the car he was calm and looking forward to the weekend.

she tried to get him to think of our house as the other place. we just kept on loving him nad it didn't take long for him to view our house as his home also.

we only had an every other weekend visitation schedule also. i am sure that your oc views your house as her home too. she is just to young to relate that to you. but you should be able to see it in her actions and interactions with your family when she is with you. is she at ease? or is she always tense and weepy? is she happy to see you and/or h whichever one of you picks her up? how do your c's react to her? how do they interact with her? what kind of reactions do they have when she goes back to ow? do they spend time making crafty cards and coloring pictures for oc when she is away? do they ask when oc is coming back?

i am not saying this to try and talk you into continued c just relating the fact that you are not alone in that experience and trying to help give you some things to look for to help you make your decision.

kt, C did not start until CS did. It seems everyone was happier before C. It seems like your H and OW both wish NC of OC. Maybe you can make a legal deal with OW. Since she wants NC, agree, if CS is cut in half.

This was just a thought.

How awful for OC to be forced into such treatment by his mother. She sounds very immature.

No matter which way you go on this, I wish the best for both you and hubby. You will survive.

Also, I do not mean to sound so judgmental.

ember

Yes, I agree everyone WAS happier before.

Yes, C did not start until CS did. We did try to "find" OW and OC before CS hearing, although we had already been served papers, it took several months before the actual hearing.

H was at least curious. OW had moved and we had no idea how to contact her. We sent a letter writing "please forward" on it but it came back w/ no forwarding address.

Before the hearing H and I discussed if we should pursue C or not, we decided we would since OW was pursuing CS, we thought this was something OW ALSO wanted.

@ the hearing when we met OW we said we wanted to meet OC and she said yes and to just give her a day to "tell" OC and prepare OC. OW said OC thought OC grandpa was OC "dad".

We had NO idea how to handle all this much less act around OW. I know now we should have just come straight out and ask OW what she wanted but I doubt OW would have even been honest about it. OW says she wants OC to know her father BUT what OW says & what OW does have always been opposite.

I understand exactly what you are saying pops. Only our 3 yo (of the kids)really "cares" about OC when she is gone, and is sometimes sad to see her go but he has gotten used to that part. (1 yo is too young and 11 yo...outta sight, outta mind)

I have mixed feelings about how "healthy" this is for BC. 3yo wakes up and OC is just GONE, because OC goes to outside school and BC are homeschooled, BC are not used to this. H and OC have to leave early to get OC to school on time and usually it is before 3yo wakes up. H doesn't even leave this early for work but I figure BC just have to get used to it right? It's either this or NO time w/ OC.

From the beginning we could see that OC was "confused" how to act when transitioning from one parent to the next and OW did not help. After reading tons of books about divorce and 2 households I came to the conclusion that OC needed a nuetral place to transition from, OW did not like that.

OW said her other child would be hurt if OC left daycare but not her blah blah blah, so OW always "needed" to be there. That limited us because of course then it could only be when OW was getting off work AND that was wierd w/ all of us @ the daycare center.

Finally, the last counselor we saw who could really see what our point was, what we were going through and respected MY role in all this instead of trying to exclude me, (like the courts and different counselor they saw) realized the value of OW (mom) "letting go" and not putting so much pressure on OC to take care of OW well-being.

Do you know what I mean? So that counselor agreed that OC needed a nuetral transitional place (like school or daycare center) WITHOUT mom being there for the p/u & drop off.

OC is an all around happy and outgoing little soul. OW claimed we were seeing OC TOO much and always wanted to cut it back. When we would tell OW that OC acted fine w/ us OW would discount it as that's how OC always is but that OC shows her REAL feelings w/ OW--(that may be true)--that OC did not really want to go w/ us. IF OC said she wanted to go w/ us it was only because we "pressured" OC into saying it!(definately NOT true)

OC acts "fine" w/us. I think some patterns have been established from the beginning, such as going w/ us being perceived as a negative thing. OW said OC would cry and not want to go w/us but when we would come OC looked fine and acted chipper. There were a few occasions that OC would get mad @ us for having to take OC back to OW but OW never believed us.

The last counselor explained it really well that children fully %100 mean it when they say they want to stay w/ 1 parent and they absolutely mean it to the OP as well. The point is they(kids) just don't want to choose but they don't want to go back and forth either, the kids are trying to assert themselves how much they do not like having to go back and forth.

My H and I are reasonable people we already knew this and understood it, OW however just wanted to believe that OC never wanted to go w/ us and we were just forcing OC into something OC did not want and that OC was afraid to hurt us by telling us the "truth" and expressing her "true" feelings so OC was only telling us what we "wanted" to hear. The funny thing is that OC would tell OW (when we were NOT around) that OC wanted to go w/ us and OC would tell us to ask OW for OC because OW was "not listening to her". We would tell OW this but OW did not beleive us and ignored us.

AND pops, like you have mentioned before, about parents making decisions for kids......at first OW would say that OW wanted to "wait" until OC started to ask for herself to spend more time w/ us...leave it up to OC....in OC's "own" time....but as soon as OC started to do that.....OW denied OC, that we were just FORCING OC to say these things.

Man writing all this and thinking back...it feels way longer than just 21 months. It feels like forever.

So it is really hard to know what to do as the "right thing" and so I have to weigh it all together. The deciding factor is what it does to OUR family, marriage and children or rather what OW does to it.

But our decision is what I have already said, we will try this last time w/ another lawyer to make the parenting plan bullet proof and if OW continues to try to go against it or to say things to deliberately hurt us THEN that will be ENOUGH. We feel the decision would not really be ours but OW. She ultimately, by her actions, will decide the fate of OC relationship w/ us.

There comes a time when you just have to say "enough is enough" and we have come to it. This is the last step in the "doing everything we could" journey.

We can't change for BC that we introduced all this madness into their lives so we are trying to fix it the only way we know how.

Believe me you don't have to try and convince me against C. Although the solutions seem simple they are not always easy.

OW has accused us of only pursuing C to lower CS, just like I think she only went after CS for the $$$$ and not for OC to have a father. whatever, it doesn't matter and I think that is a dumb argument anyway.

But my point is I would hate to give OW any reason to say that we have proved her right. Honestly, I want it to be very clear that we have put in %100 effort and in the end did all we absolutely could, w/o a shadow of a doubt.

There is always hope that OW will just give in & accept that we are in OC life and give up trying to push us away. You never know but this way...it is all clear what OW chose and then what we chose and why!

It's funny, on TOW they have the opinion that BS should just "get over it" and C is a condition of staying in the marriage, ok whatever, BUT @ the same time, w/ that arguement, then shouldn't TOW "get over it" and realize that MM staying married and BS as "step-mom" is a condition of C? AND that having your child only %50 of the time is a "condition" of having a child w/ MM or any man for that matter that you are not married to?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by ember:
Maybe you can make a legal deal with OW. Since she wants NC, agree, if CS is cut in half. <hr /></blockquote>Yah I have thought of that or some sort of "deal". But NO deal possible since OW is on gov't. assistance.

I think OW was trying to "strike a deal" right before last custody hearing in Oct. That was when I first found this forum.

A week before custody hearing, after everything was in agreement and we all just had to have lawyers sign it and file it, OW started bringing up crap about H signing away his rights and OW said she was ready to take "FULL responsibility" of OC including "financially" and that she would even still "let us" see OC "if we wanted" but if we put on paper that OW had full custody...blah blah blah.

So.....anyways I stopped that discussion because I KNEW it was a legal impossibility AND we already knew OC now, a little too late! OW is just an idiot!

Out of curiosity I did ask her why she never had H sign away his rights in the beginning, BEFORE C, (when OW contacted H to legally change OC name 5 years ago) and then OW could have continued to have full control and never contact us for anything.

OW said that she had a really bad lawyer @ the time and she didn't know anything like that even existed!

I told you OW was an idiot.

I know of many men and women w/ their kids who do not pursue CS because the OP is "leaving them alone" and they don't want to encourage C by pursuing CS. Interesting, I think, because it leaves everyone unprotected either way because the OP can waltz right back in whenever they want and then you are forced to share your child AND still don't have CS set up. IMO (never humble) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

KT said:
It's funny, on TOW they have the opinion that BS should just "get over it" and C is a condition of staying in the marriage, ok whatever, BUT @ the same time, w/ that arguement, then shouldn't TOW "get over it" and realize that MM staying married and BS as "step-mom" is a condition of C? AND that having your child only %50 of the time is a "condition" of having a child w/ MM or any man for that matter that you are not married to?
edited to add that in hopes that all the adults are adult enough to be able to all discuse the kids and there would be no fussing about emails being sent out of line or phone calls. I hope you understood that too. I would expect xh wife/girlfriend could talk to me without making me feel like I'm intruding on there lives, and wise a versa. If the wife does need to talk to me, then have enough respect for me that I am that child's mom. Do I make sense?
Yes it is a condition of contact. I've said that all along here and there. It's just the way it is. Your KT with any man....just not mean mm. A few different things though....I would have xmm wife/family involved, and whatever decisions he made with his wife they are that, but I am the child's bio mother and I'm not one to go through people about my kids. If I email my husband/xh for any reason to do with my kids he better email me or call me back. Not his new wife. But then again, I'd keep it on the kids and not put anything personal or past tense in it. Do you know what I mean without getting into a board war? I'm just that way with my kids.

[ March 21, 2004, 03:58 PM: Message edited by: needtomoveon ]

KT, does oc not have your last name? When did you find out about oc? If you don't mind me asking. I'm assuming it was way before contact happened? Also, if she is on public assistance how the heck can she afford to pay for private school. Your in CA.? right? Your more expensive than us in NV., and I have two jobs and still can't afford it. I wish I could put my kids in private school for the first 3 or 4 years of school, but can't.

A ended upon the news of pg. H and OW never spoke again so H never even knew when OC was born or even if. H ALSO did NOT tell me about A. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" />

OW named OC and gave OC H last name upon birth. 6 months later OW legally contacted H to change OC name,change 1st name AND change last name to OW last name. This was about 5 years ago and that was when I was "informed" by H about A. (not the entire truth <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> )

It was @ this time that H and I separated, H made it clear to OW that he was there if she needed anything, he was "willing to take responsibility", whatever OW wanted. (she did not know we were separated but that I knew) It was at this time that OW declined anything from my H. H agreed to the name change thinking we would never be in OC life now, for sure, anyway.

NOW in our last custody agreement/hearing, OW agreed to reinstate H last name in OC name with a hyphen ("OC 1stname OWname-Hname").

Yes the private school is a big ????. I thought grandpa was paying for the school but I don't know for sure because it was listed on OW expenses in the CS hearing and the DA was stating how DA could NOT ask H to pay for any of it since it was OW choice and judge would just say that OC could go to public.

I think the way OW can afford it IS by having assistance, then that creates less expenses for her out of her own pocket. I don't know all the details.....just know that she gets assistance for both kids and OW only works part time and lives in a ghetto looking apartment.

OW also receives tuition assistance for the school, (OW is only responsible for 2/3 the cost)so it might work for you to look into if any private schools in your area offer something like that.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by needtomoveon:
 but I am the child's bio mother and I'm not one to go through people about my kids. If I email my husband/xh for any reason to do with my kids he better email me or call me back. Not his new wife. But then again, I'd keep it on the kids and not put anything personal or past tense in it. Do you know what I mean without getting into a board war? I'm just that way with my kids. <hr /></blockquote>I know exactly what you mean. Honestly if H and I were divorced my attitude would be "YOU are their father and SHE is nothing to them or me".....just being honest......BUT that would also be tainted by the fact and attitude that I was FIRST and that new honey was just that--NEW!

The c between H and OW, concerning OC was just that in the beginning, between them and I really did not know how to fit into that equation, I felt very left out and was upset that I was left out but struggled to be mature and adult about it.

After awhile, I could see that some things were unecessary and OW was starting to play the "come visit w/ OC alone" game and "why do you HAVE to bring EVERYONE" game, so I started to get a little more involved. Which eventually led to the inevitable.....cattiness and insults, he said she said crap! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Then with the last counselor including me, that opened a door of communication between OW and myself. (mature communication not just the catfight type LOL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> )

AND we limited communication to %90 email to avoid any unnecessary communication off the topic (OC) or anything getting heated. BUT when OW still tried to dig into the past....I stepped in to take over all communication. H hates OW, is sick of OW and can't deal w/ her anymore.

Although I have my negative feelings towards OW for her part in hurting my family, I think I have way more self-control to stick to the topic (OC, and not the past)tehn OW does, and try to have compassion at least with regards to the fact that OW is a mother and a single one and I do try to see OW POV or where OW may be coming from w/ her opinon or antics.

I don't expect OW understanding towards me because OW comments have led me to believe that OW thinks I have it "easy". I would rather OW think that, then know the true depth of my sorrow.

And like OW last email that really flipped me out.....instead of ripping OW head off I can vent here instead. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Oh my gosh KT, what a ordeal. That is what I'm doing with Taylor's name...my maiden name-xmm last name. When my divorce goes through I'm hypenating my maiden and married name for the twins and tayolor's sake. Wow. She waited a long time for that. Basically xmm did not tell his w until forced into it also she knew of nothing either. He too has not told her the whole truth as he called me to tell me what he told her. I don't feel it's my place to tell as I have way to much on my plate right now and either way I would look like the bad guy. So she's a smart lady either she'll figure it out which xmm has already told me the court case will turn ugly and things will come out then, as I had to give my attorney major details in her motion, or she believe him and he'll do it again. Either way it's not my problem...not to sound cruel, but you know what I mean. I don't think I could quailfy for any assistance with my kids school. We have a shared cost of living here and between xh and mine income it won't happen. Plus we have charter schools here that you can try and enroll your kids into. My girlfriend does get a break with her private school for her kids but you have to attend there church and I am not that religion and have been going to the same church for 7 years so that is not an option. KT, all you can do is what your doing. I guess it's just in some people's blood to try and have there cake and eat it too. There is nothing you can do about that. If she can't realize that her actions will affect the oc life there is nothing you can do it about it. I just don't understand when people can't figure out that you have to think of your kids and what is best for them. SO hang in there and hope for the best.

kt,,,,,, kids are an interesting study. i have mentioned that grae goes to her bio dad easily when i am the one to hand her over but should fh try then grace clings to her.

i understand how many bw's feel as now with grace i have been on both sides of the contact issue. although my exgf was not a separation from an A believe me there was no love lost between fh and exgf. when ex told me she was pregnant (another story) we broke up in may of 1974. i met fh in june of 1974 and we became an "item" immediately. ex was constantly giving fh trouble because she wanted me back in her life. we had dated for 6 years to that point.

a couple of interesting stories: the other week while at the baby sitters ( my oldest daughter, princess) she was getting grace ready for om to pick her up. the doorbell rang and princess said that poppy was here. grace ran into the back yard and hid ubder the bbq cover.

then this weekend fh was getting her dressed to go off for visitation and without fh saying a word about who or where she was going grace started saying "no poppy, no poppy". when om's w showed up to pick her up with om's son, grace just clung to fh and didn't want to go.

if ow agreed to school issue would you be willing to continue with visitation? or if ow was not around have you been able to form a bond with oc?

the reason i asked the second question is that once i had formed the bond with my son nothing could have made me give up on a relationship with him. now i realize there were no other children for fh and i to consider at that time either and also that i KNOW it was a different story for fh whether she could have walked away from my son should i have decided to throw in the towel when ex was being such a b*!#%.

I can't see where the OW gets off, saying that the H should talk to her and not the BW. They chose to step off into our lives and should have to deal w/ BW being a say so. As long as everything is kept on the child conversations then they can deal with it. You are the STEP MOM right? It's your house and be honest, most of the time you keep up w/ the OC and feed them, bath them, so why would you not be the one the OW would talk to? If OW didn't want to deal w/ us then they should have disappeared! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> I'm tired of hearing BW don't have a say, sorry we do. It's our family that they put themselves into. So deal w/ it.

KT,

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Although I have my negative feelings towards OW for her part in hurting my family, I think I have way more self-control to stick to the topic (OC, and not the past)tehn OW does, and try to have compassion at least with regards to the fact that OW is a mother and a single one and I do try to see OW POV or where OW may be coming from w/ her opinon or antics.

I don't expect OW understanding towards me because OW comments have led me to believe that OW thinks I have it "easy". I would rather OW think that, then know the true depth of my sorrow.
<hr /></blockquote>I admire you so much, for all that you have gone through & are still enduring with OC & OW. You could have washed your hands of this situation long ago & didn't, I pray for you it all works out & OW will get a clue & realize that it is really OC who matters now, not her & her "agenda", she should be happy that you are willing to be the best stepmom you can to OC, but nooooo, gotta play games & act stupid. Like I said OW acts like you asked for this- so you should act accordingly. I can imagine it would not be easy to go NC now after having OC in your lives, but you have to do what is best for you & your family in the end.

I always think that I don't want to get close to my step daughter for that very reason, if & when I do see her on a regular basis, I just don't see OW ever stopping her games, unless some man marries her sorry butt, cuz for now the only H she wants & seems to think she has a shot at is mine. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

If it turns out that you have to go NC, like you said you can walk away knowing you did everythng possible to have C w/ OC & thay will give you peace.

about that "bonding issue":

I think we, well for sure me, I had more affection for OC in the beginning and was more open to unbiased affection towards OC in the beginning.

I am just being honest here so I hope no one jumps down my throat but.....

Since OW began her games and issues and wanting us to see OC less and less, I know I backed off emotionally from OC. I became just a care taker only doing what I HAD to do to care for her, (bathe her, feed her, wash her clothes ect.) It is hard for me to get back to that place where I can love OC.

I've always kind of had a thing against kids anyway (I used to joke that I did not like kids except my own! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) But everyone says I'm naturally great w/ kids anyway so that is a bit odd.

But anyway, I think I've just distanced myself because of the frustration w/ OW and thinking OW actions will force us out of OC life anyway so....I hold back. I am also afraid that my distaste for OW will come out so I avoid OC so that none of it will rub off on OC.

There are times when we can all relax and let loose---hysterical laughing and my favorite, dancing like a whole ktbunch-o-freaks! And what a great time we had @ the cabin but.....

Then real life creeps in and it is hard to face the challenge. I do hope that OW will be able to get past HER issues and then this could all work out for all of us. I don't expect it to be easy but so what.

I have just come to a point where I can say enough is enough--it's all clear now. I can't change what already has transpired, all the hurt on both sides---but I can prevent any more from happening. That is my take on it.

I am no longer willing to sacrifice any more JUST for OC sake. I am willing to do what I can and if OW is cooperative then that is great but if not....then forget it.

I am not saying OW has to always agree w/ us but I'm am saying that there has to be compromise sometimes. I know OW thinks she has done ALL the compromising because OW "allowed" us to have so much time w/ OC. I guess you can think that way if you want but I disagree. How is there "allowing" when OC IS (as TOW say) my H "flesh & blood". Like OW has done us a favor by allowing H (and us) to have relationship w/OC???

That is another issue between us. We see it as doing all this for OC while OW looks @ it as us inconveniencing OW life and OW is doing us all a favor! That's why things have even come up because OW would say things like, "It doesn't work for me", "it's very inconvenient for me". And that OW has done so much for US. whatever.

Even when we were in counseling the counselor asked each of us what kind of visitation schedule we all wanted. My answer? I don't care as long as we all AGREE. I didn't WANT to spend the next 10 years fighting over this junk!

OW says she agrees w/ us but then weeks or months later----disagrees saying that she never agreed or (her latest)only acted like she agreed.

This is very frustrating. Who can live like that w/ OP going back and forth on stupid stuff? There is no peace that way, no stablility.

So that is where we are I guess. If we can hire this lawyer it will still take a few months at least, to get a hearing date. So we have time.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I am just being honest here so I hope no one jumps down my throat but.....<hr /></blockquote>I would hope no one would, YOU & only YOU know what you have gone through w/ OW. I can see myself being just like you, loving OC from beginning, I already know I would already if I saw her on a regular basis, & I am afraid of that.

I don't consider myself a "kid" person either, that is part of the reason I only had one child but how could I not love a baby & she is part of H, unfortunately part of OW too. I guess if I try really hard I can see her OW's POV as far as not wanting me (stepmom) to be involved in OC's life & feeling that any decisions concerning OC do not include me, but when you decide to have a baby w/ a married man that is the chance you take.

I ask myself often if I really want to deal w/ this for the rest of my life???? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Guess I do, otherwise I wouldn't be here!

I believe you are doing the right thing & you have every right to feel the way you do about OC. You are not superwoman afterall, & like you said you will know when enough is enough.

kt,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, i will never understand your frustration with ow's antics. ex gf used to do so many of the things i read here and more. it was so very frustraing sometimes for me and i probably still don't understand how frustrating it was for fh.

i do understand however how you have backed off from oc. with the frustrations put on you by ow you don't feel secure in any future relationship with oc.

as much as i love grace there is still a difference somehow in the feelings for her and my own bio kids. i think it is the fact that there will always be some doubt about how she will handle all this when she grows older. kind of a self preservation thing to assure that should she choose to move off with her bio dad.

there are also times when i am just laying there with her watching "monsters inc" and i look at her and all i see is om. i have to refocus myself rather quickly or i tend to go backwards in time and feel anger slipping in. but the next minute she is running down the hall with a waffle box on her head saying "daddy where are you" and my heart melts again.

no matter how far along you are in your recovery from this type of dilema there will always be something that kicks it up in your face again.

it is just sad that your ow has to be so stubborn on some of the issues you are dealing with. it sounds like with the right circumstances your family would be able to expand to include oc. it is just to bad that ow is not cooperating.

i know om is upset that i am involved so much with decisions about grace. he wants it to be just he and fh.

on the subject of bs being involved with oc. i know that fh has a problem with om's w. why i am not excatly sure. she thinks that om should always pick her up and drop her off instead of his w. she doesn't want grace going if om is not going to be there. she feels that visitation is for om to be with his daughter. she also knows that om's w has the right to be involved with grace but that it still bothers her. i think it is just a natural mothers fear of anything the can't control when it comes to their kids.

i replied to you about your journal question and i hope it was of some help.

Pops, your reply about the journal was the one i ws looking for. thanks, it helped a lot. I planon getting on that in the next few days. I have a lot of catching up to do w/ OC's so it will take some time.

Why do you think fh gets upset aobut OM's W? And what do you tell fh? Is her attitude the one that is grace is there to visit w/ OM NOT W? What about OM's children (grace's 1/2 siblings)? Are there any?

This is exactly what OW used to say but then we would point out that OC has siblings to hang out w/ and get to know too. OW used to say that I could not p/u OC because it was H responsibility---ok--but then OW would allow other people on her end to p/u OC so we pointed out how it was OW responsibility.

Those are not issues now though since we p/u OC from school and I do most of it because H gets off of work same time as OC school lets out. (unless it the weekday schedule then it is H days off)

Funny, last year, the day my H got stung by the bee....OW would never exchange any day no matter what the reason (usually BC school events) so we didn't even try to ask. So after being released from the hospital we went to get OC but I went to the door myself because H was too weak to walk. (OW lived in the very back of apt. complex)

It was awkward but finally I was like ok lets go and OW insisted on walking w/ me all the way to the car! I was soooo mad. All I could think of was my H almost died today and you (OW) are trying to play games and get upset because H didn't walk to the door himself!!!!! I was insulted that she did not trust me and the last thing on my mind was OC, I had just been through the scare of my life! <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Maybe OW and fh think that OM doesn't care if he is not the one doing it all himself.

The first counselor told OW that she needed to get along w/ ME and make this work w/ ME because ("no offense to H") women are detailed oriented and I will naturally be taking on most of the care of OC so OW will get more information from ME, so she told OW to apologize to me (about arguement we had gotten into, I had apologized already when it happened)and get along.

I thought that was good advice and a good point. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

pops,
You wrote:

"on the subject of bs being involved with oc. i know that fh has a problem with om's w. why i am not excatly sure. she thinks that om should always pick her up and drop her off instead of his w. she doesn't want grace going if om is not going to be there. she feels that visitation is for om to be with his daughter. she also knows that om's w has the right to be involved with grace but that it still bothers her. i think it is just a natural mothers fear of anything the can't control when it comes to their kids."

I think you hit the nail on the head. My H’s son’s mother (they were never married) as well as his XW (when she still had custody of their daughter) both wanted just him to be the ONLY one to pick up the kids. In the case of his son, he was working third shift at the time and got off at 7 a.m. He had to pick up the son at 8 a.m. (approx 45 minute drive). Prior to our marriage, we had several hearings to establish a visitation schedule and later for Contempt Motions when she failed to abide by the Court Orders. His son’s mother stated, in Court, that she would rather him drive her son on the road (half asleep) then me be involved in the transporting of him. Their son is almost 13. The judge stated that was ridiculous and stated that H could designate any one responsible to drop off or pick up his son.

In the case of their daughter I could understand her feelings as I was the OW. However, I was included in the parenting plan and my now H also signed over POA to me. The judge that presided over their divorce stated he would not try to place undue burdens on visitations. We have since (very recently) been given temporary custody of their daughter. His XW has 2 weekly visits at her local DFCS office (separate county). I do all the transportation for that as it conflicts with his work schedule.

ktbunch you wrote:
"Why do you think fh gets upset aobut OM's W? And what do you tell fh? Is her attitude the one that is grace is there to visit w/ OM NOT W? What about OM's children (grace's 1/2 siblings)? Are there any?

This is exactly what OW used to say but then we would point out that OC has siblings to hang out w/ and get to know too. OW used to say that I could not p/u OC because it was H responsibility---ok--but then OW would allow other people on her end to p/u OC so we pointed out how it was OW responsibility."

That is also what my H’s XW tried to do. She wanted the parenting plan to state that only H could be the one to have visitation and that he could not designate it to someone else if he had to work etc.

Luckily the judges in our area (south Georgia) are very proactive in trying to eliminate conflict and placing the child’s needs first. They even require a class on it in order to divorce or get a court ordered visitation schedule. tewjtm aka female sargeant @ TOW

Oh yes, OW did put in the parenting plan SHE wanted, that I NOT be allowed to be alone w/ or transport OC!

I'm glad we have made at least SOME progress in that area. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I think it was only because the counselor told OW how ridiculous that was and that OW had to face the fact that I was here to STAY and also be a part of OC life.

ktbunch,
I am glad that you at least got the fact that you should be able to transport child, sign for basic medical consents, etc. resolved through the mediation process. It seems as if you have done everything possible to make the best of this situation. It seems to me this OW should be grateful that her child has someone willing to accept her into her home and assist in her growth. As she was the OW, (H still w/ you and made his feelings and intentions clear to her) OW should respect this fact and be willing to have all contact go through you. And this is coming from a former OW. Good luck to you. tewjtm aka femalesargeant @ TOW

No, I don't have any "rights" to the OC but I am able to care for OC and be around her like any other family member (w/o H present).

The equivalent, say, like an "aunt".

or a STEPMOM!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Pops,

I was thinking the same thing! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

As long as I am H's W that is what I am, like it or not. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

yah your right pops. Thanks, sm has such negative connotations and I was thinking "aunt" even sounded MORE related but...I guess that's just as questionable now a days.

One time OW snapped @ me because she thought I was trying to compare myself to OC aunt, (OW sister), she said I had no right to compare because OW sister was there when OC was born! So not to even try to compare myself to her! I wasn't doing that though, OW misunderstood what I was saying.

Just another reminder of how I do NOT fit into this picture! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

But I will try not to dwell on that and only to think about who I AM important too! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Kt~

Do you consider yourself her Step Mom and her your Step child though?

I don't think there has to be negative connotations to either.

Geez, at least you don't refer to the child in a rude manner. This woman is definitely a game player and likes to stick it to you whenever she can. No if's, and's or butt's about it...

I just had a thought KT, call yourself whatever you want to this child. Auntie so and so is fine. Her (the OW) opinion in this matter means diddly squat. She is just an overbearing control freak who is pissed because she didn't get your H.

I don't "consider" myself anything really.

OC started out calling me "mom" or "mommy". H and I did not tell her to call us anything, we just let OC do whatever was comfortable. OW had said that OC called every female in OC life, either by thier name or "mommy".

THEN OC told OW that I told OC that I was OC "new mommy now". That did not go over well w/ OW of course. It was NOT true but OW always believes OC, of course.

So then OC called me by my name but my 3yo started calling me by my name--that did not fly w/ me or daddy.

SO I told OC she could call me "step-mom" since that is what I am. It did not bother me but------man----everyone else (adults) would be so offended when they heard OC say that. "WHAT did OC just call you?" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Finally, I got so tired of everyone saying stuff that I sat down w/ Oc and had a "talk". I explained that we all know who OC mommy is, OC only has ONE mommy but that she can call me "mama'" amd her "mommy" is her mommy_______. I kept reinterating the fact that she only has ONE mommy.

So to be sure I asked OC "how many mommies do you have?" and OC answered, "3". <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> I asked OC "who?". OC replied, OW, Ow's mom (grandma) and me!!!! I explained that I am not her "mommy, OC did not come out from my belly" OC only has ONE mommy, _________is her grandma and I am her step-mom but OC can call me mama.

So OC is now fine w/ that and very comfortable, @ least while @ our house.

So.....whatever. Ihate this whole thign anyway. H and I did not know what to do about this or how to handle it. We ahve never been in this situation and none of our friends have step-children to deal w/ so we really just didn't know.

I know OC still does not understand it all. OC tried to tell 3 yo the other day that his last name was OC last name + our last name! Because that is OC last name (OWname-Hname). It is painful as a parent to have to try and explain these things.

I do not want to have to explain this to the youngest as they get older, although I am looking forward to the day, if ever, OC has questions. I am fully confident in my answers.

It is sad to hear OC talking about how "thier house" needs a "prince" and referring to my H that thier house needs to be all 4 of "them" (OW, OC, OW's child and H). I just remind her that daddy is already married to me so he can't go live w/ them. blah blah blah.

See these are the kinds of conversations you have to have when you have OC. Or how about the time OC came over and was talking about how H broke OW heart? What IS that? Where does a 5 yo (at the time) get stuff like that? Or that "grandpa" doesn't like daddy or that "auntie" told OC daddy was going to take OC away!

Maybe OC just makes it up, OC has told OW stuff about us that was NOT true....but....who knows?

OR maybe like everyone thinks....kids really do jsut "pick-up" on this stuff more than we think.

This is just painful for everyone.

kt,,,,,,,,,,, i want to respond to your post about ow's feeling that bs doesn't need to be involved but i want to discuss it with fh first to get more feedback on the subject.

next i wanted to say that if you don't remember it has only been the last 30 years or so when fathers have even been around when their kids were born.

my dad was at the bar bragging about becoming a new dad again when i popped out. he was still a wonderful father.

we are molded not by whom is there to smack our little rearends and say welcome to this cold world but by those who are there to love us and quide us thru the good AND bad times throughout our lives. those people who will look you square in the eye when you are wrong and knowing that you are in deep doggy dodo with them yet when you look into their eyes you still see the compassion and love they have for you.

you are every bit as important to your oc (and i have to say i hate that term) as any other adult in her life and even more so. your love of that child will teach her far greater lessons in life then any ow could hope to teach her with negative statements about you.

sorry lost my paste so will have to post a second time to find my train of thought again. what is they say about the mind being the second thing that goes out with old age? what ever could the first thing be? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

[ March 23, 2004, 08:42 PM: Message edited by: pops ]

kt,,,,,,,,

....................
I don't "consider" myself anything really.
.......................
you should consider yourself a plus to be in that childs life.

.....................
OC started out calling me "mom" or "mommy".
.............................
very common for young children to use that term for most women also the term "daddy" for most men.

.................
we just let OC do whatever was comfortable.
..........................
perfect, olsest son (from now on known as "#1s")
called fh mom on his own. probably because he heard our kids calling her mom so he just responded in kind. when his bio mom was around and fh was there also then he would call her by her first name. it was no big deal.
....................
OW had said that OC called every female in OC life, either by thier name or "mommy".
.............................
just cheap words on her part to try and make you feel worthless. but we all know the truth to that.

.....................
So then OC called me by my name but my 3yo started calling me by my name--
..............................
again in your house you should be called by whatever the rest of your kisd call you no matter what anyone else says.

..........................
SO I told OC she could call me "step-mom" since that is what I am. It did not bother me but------man----everyone else (adults) would be so offended when they heard OC say that. "WHAT did OC just call you?"

Finally, I got so tired of everyone saying stuff that I sat down w/ Oc and had a "talk". I explained that we all know who OC mommy is, OC only has ONE mommy but that she can call me "mama'" amd her "mommy" is her mommy_______. I kept reinterating the fact that she only has ONE mommy.

So to be sure I asked OC "how many mommies do you have?" and OC answered, "3". I asked OC "who?". OC replied, OW, Ow's mom (grandma) and me!!!! I explained that I am not her "mommy, OC did not come out from my belly" OC only has ONE mommy, _________is her grandma and I am her step-mom but OC can call me mama.
.........................................
i understand your frustration and the why's of this conversation but it sounds like you were almost trying to rationalize the situation to yourself also. AND it has been said here to me many times about it takes more then being asperm donor to be a daddy. well the same thing holds true about being a mommy. it takes much, much more ten being an incubator.

.......................
So OC is now fine w/ that and very comfortable, @ least while @ our house.
..............................
good

......................
So.....whatever. Ihate this whole thign anyway. H and I did not know what to do about this or how to handle it. We ahve never been in this situation and none of our friends have step-children to deal w/ so we really just didn't know.
................................
and who the heck does!!!

.................................
It is sad to hear OC talking about how "thier house" needs a "prince" and referring to my H that thier house needs to be all 4 of "them" (OW, OC, OW's child and H). I just remind her that daddy is already married to me so he can't go live w/ them. blah blah blah.
..........................................
what is sad is when you see a woman that is so blind that she will continue to use her own child to make herself feel better. all i would say to oc is that your h is the prince of YOUR house and that someday ANOTHER prince will come along to be with his bio mom at her house.

.......................
See these are the kinds of conversations you have to have when you have OC. Or how about the time OC came over and was talking about how H broke OW heart? What IS that? Where does a 5 yo (at the time) get stuff like that? Or that "grandpa" doesn't like daddy or that "auntie" told OC daddy was going to take OC away!
...................................
i had to deal with the same kinds of things being told to #1s my his mom. many times it is not that they are telling oc these things but rather just not being discrete of what they are saying when oc is around. some people never get it.

BUT on the good side if you keep your journal the truth will eventually be told. even if you don't keep the journal your actions will be seen by oc as she grows and matures. GARUNTEEED!!!!

...............................
OR maybe like everyone thinks....kids really do jsut "pick-up" on this stuff more than we think.
.......................................
i couldn't agree with this statement more. kids are much more perceptive and most times more advanced intheir comprehension then us adults want to give them credit for. as they always say "out of the mouths of babes". trust me they usually heard it from an adult.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I don't "consider" myself anything really.<hr /></blockquote>Maybe I worded it wrong. I was just trying to see how you view your role in all this. Also, you didn't say what you consider her to be. You refer to her so much as the OC, I've rarely if ever, heard you refer to her as your step daughter. I was wondering if you view her as such?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />SO I told OC she could call me "step-mom" since that is what I am
<hr /></blockquote>So, you are her step mom. Although, I agree, to call someone "step mom" does sound kinda strange, too formal...

I'm with pops, it's best she call you whatever your children call you. I know teenagers and young adults who call their step parents by their first name. However, with a youngster, it just isn't right. I don't allow my children to call any adult by their first name, it is always Mr. or Mrs. Obviously, that wouldn't work in this case either. Auntie just doesn't seem right either, because you aren't her Aunt. You are her step mom, by virtue of the fact you and your H are helping to raise her.

I don't envy your situation. Thank God my H and I are able to raise our baby without any contact what so ever from the op. I don't want to make a blanket statement, but in more cases than not, it is much easier to have a baby produced from a W's A.

[ March 23, 2004, 10:52 PM: Message edited by: autumnday ]

by autumn day:However, with a youngster, it just isn't right. I don't allow my children to call any adult by their first name, it is always Mr. or Mrs. Obviously, that wouldn't work in this case either.

Neither do we! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I was beginning to thing that was just a "homeschool cult" thing! LOL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Good so we're not a bunch of wierdo's.

I only say OC here for clarification when writing. With having the whole ktbunch now, it can get confusing. And just for safety/privacy issues I don't use thier names and I even feel funny referring to their gender. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

IRL I refer to OC by her name to our friends, SD w/ aquaintances, and D with strangers.

It's funny. Whenever we meet up w/ someone we haven't seen for awhile, but have obviously "heard" the news, they ALWAYS say, "So....how many kids do you have now?" Then try to act shocked when we answer, then they ask how old each one is! LOL Sometimes people are so transparent.

[ March 24, 2004, 10:34 AM: Message edited by: ktbunch ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />
Good so we're not a bunch of wierdo's. <hr /></blockquote>Nope, last time I checked, teaching your kids to be respectful is not weird. A rarity these days?...Yes, so it seems sometimes.

[ March 29, 2004, 02:14 PM: Message edited by: autumnday ]

kt,,,,,,,,,,,,,
you asked........................
Why do you think fh gets upset aobut OM's W? And what do you tell fh? Is her attitude the one that is grace is there to visit w/ OM NOT W? What about OM's children (grace's 1/2 siblings)? Are there any?
..................................
the reasons fh doesn't want om's w picking up grace are multiple. and these are in no specific order of importance.

1 - i think it is just a built in protective device in mothers. they want to be the ones raising their cubs. they are always uneasy when their kids are away.

2 - she feels visitation is a time for om to form a bond with his daughter. so if he is not there then why should grace not be home where her mother can have her under her watchful eye.

3 - in our case once when om's w went to pick up grace at babysitters (our oldest daughter, princess) om's w started asking princess how she felt about all this and what she thought of her mom, etc.

so fh told om she did not want his w picking grace up anymore. and if she did to please tell her to keep our daughter out of tis. how would she like it if pops were to ask your son what he thought and tell him that his dad is a womanizing coward.

4 - (this is just my personal opinion) i think that fh is having a hard time with her feelings of quilt over all this. i have asked her if she thought it important to apologize to om's w and she has answered that she doesn't want to talk to her. that an apology wouldn't change anything or do any good. i think she is wrong in that area.

i think an apology would make fh feel much better in side herself. just me. but i know she has a very hard time with saying she's sorry even to me when she is 100% wrong. side note** as any h will tell you that his w being wrong is like never. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

om does have children from his marriage. a daughter age 4 and a son age 11. he and his w also are raising her daughter age 14/15? hey don't recieve any cs for her and her bio dad never comes to see her.

what i tell her is that his w does have a right to be a part of graces life and have a relationship with grace the same as i fought my exgf so that fh coould have a relationship with #1s.

grace seems to be in good spirits whne she comes back from her visits but as i have mentioned previously she is now more and more saying that she doesn't want to go to poppy's house. even on days when she is not supposed to go.

this is full house speaking......i didnt read the whole post, but did catch pops and a little more, i guess there was a question of why i didnt like oms wife picking up and bringing back grace? i will go back and read more, but on that, its not that i care whether she is there or not, its the fact that om is never with them, it makes me wonder if he is spending anytime with her at all. She should get to know her other siblings and his wife, but the reason for the visitation in the first place was so that he could create a relationship with her, at least that is what he said. i know that he didnt spend much time with his family before, so i am wondering if he is continuing his old ways, and she is just being a special person in letting her children know their sister without his help. yes i did state i didnt like her picking up our daughter from my oldest daughters house because of how she spoke to her, trying to pry into her thoughts, and saying terrible things about me. she has no right talking to my daughter in that way, just like we have no right discussing with her children how we feel. if she wants to say how she feels i more than welcome her to speak with me. and that was approached in the beginning but she declined. she has taken the opportunities to talk my husbands ear off, she does have the gift of gab...like my husband, so i am surprised either one got a word in....lol
well i guess i will read this post from the beginning to see what i missed

full house here, i just read page 7, boy alot to read.......
in reply to some questions...I am not against his wife picking up or having a part in graces life, i just want her to be respectful in my childrens presence, i know i have put everyone in a hard place, but i am trying very hard to be easy to get along with, never denying visits , working with change on schedules, etc....i never want to be the woman from hell like pops ex-girlfriend, life was miserable with her in it, she did everything she could to be a bxxxh, i am not ever gonna be like that. and during our visitations with #1 son i went with pops 90% of the time, but he was the one who went to the door to pickup and to return, it was never an option for me. the contact was always thru them, never me. so really i think if you have the nightmare of having an A and oc enter your life, i am the dream ow if you have to have one......and this is not trying to make light of all the difficult situations and horrors that these A's have brought, i am just saying i am trying to not cause anymore heartache and problems than there already is. does any of this make sense?

fh: see there are lots of different sides and situations here.

OW in my life would not change schedules for ANYTHING. I took that personal because %95 of the time it was a scheduling conflict having to do w/ BC (oldest) school functions and activities.

I felt she was forcing H to "choose". And I thought it was downright mean to do. We always let her know what it was for and why we were asking, and always way in advance, sometimes months. Always....."no"...."really inconvenient for me"....."you have asked for too many changes, so no".......WHAT?????

Those occasions just happened to be during a busy season (the end of the school year). It was horrible. Then when we would try to make it all work out by having me p/u OC-------oh no---OW did not go for that--absolutely NOT!

This was before I ever even said a word to OW about anything, all this while everything about OC was always between H and OW.

That's why and when I started to get "more involved".

Of course you have good points. Any parent would put a stop to that, about OMW talking to D. That is crossing the line.

I just don't see why everyone CAN'T act like adults, like everyone else says, then YES, it probably would work.

I have told OW on numerous occasions to just leave it in the past. Nope, always has to bring it up somewhere, somehow. Things will be going good for awhile but when push comes to shove on a topic about OC-----that's like her secret weapon---any disagreement about OC and OW brings out the big guns---which has NOTHING to do w/ OC.

My H is better @ handling that then me. Whenever OW has tried to bring it up (@ least in person) he's like---ok lets go.

He's much more level headed but that frustrates me. I'm like go ahead and bring it on because I know OW can NOT say anything abuot me personally to hurt me so I'm like-go ahead and try. OW tries to hurt me either through my BC or my H.

So like now, (since this post was started) things are just fine. But everyday I think to myself, is today the day OW tries to send another frivolous email? And when and if we can get that lawyer in a few weeks------then what? How will OW react to that?

It's like you have to walk on eggshells for OW. That's what I hate.

During the time of OC (what we like to call) "lying episodes", our whole family was tense and didn't hardly even want to talk for fear of how OC would misinterprate(sp?) to OW our conversations. Finally, we just said the heck w/ it, it doesn't matter what we REALLY say because OC will tell OW something different and no matter what OW will not believe us so......it just doesn't matter.

Funny, even when we would say NOTHING, OW was suspiscious. We have a mini-van (of course <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ---I hate it!LOL)and if you are sitting in the back you can't here anything the people in the front are saying. So OW brought up the fact that OC told her we were talking in the car but OC couldn't hear what we were saying---implying it was something negative about OW!!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Any way.......I'm rambling tonight..but since this is MY thread, I think I am allowed! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />