I found out 2 months ago that my husband had had an affair with my mother about 10 years ago. The affair lasted almost 4 years. We had 2 very young children at the time, so my time was consumed with raising my children. My husband was extremely stealthy in regards to keeping the situation a complete secret, and when I began to question just exactly if/what was going on during that time, they both lied to me and insisted that it was purely an emotional thing. Fast forward ten years later, and a recent discussion with my mom re: a fight with my husband brought a flashback to back then, and I just insisted that she tell me the absolute truth. She did, and my life has been completely altered ever since. My husband has since moved out, insists that I am the love of his life, and will do anything to make up for what happened all those years ago. This on top of the fact that he had been emotionally/verbally abusive for a good part of our 20 year marriage, and is now finally seeing the damage he's caused. How do any of the concepts, rules, advice, etc. apply to a situation such as this? I feel like that with the changes he's making, the help he has saught on his own, he is truthful in wanting to be a better man/father/husband. What I can't get past is what him and my mother did, and all the lies they told to keep it hidden all these years. Any advice?

What a devastating discovery. Welcome to MArriage Builders. I am sorry for the reasons that brought you here.

The concepts would apply just as in any other affair. The affair should be exposed and all contact with the affair partner should be ended. In this case, the OW is your own mother. THAT is the only way to get over it. Your mother and your husband did a dreadful, despicable thing. Everyone should know.

That is to say - no contact between your H and her, and also you and her, for life. That means no visiting her, and she doesn't visit you or the kids. You don't go to relatives houses if she could be there. No weddings if she is going. No funerals, no invitations to your kids' weddings and graduations. If your marriage is to recover, there must be no contact with her for life, from both of you.

Is your father alive? How would you manage seeing him and not your mother?

It is difficult to go NC with a close family member, but our MB members who have done this have found peace and recovery. We have had posters where the OW is a sister or the OM is a brother, and if it means not going to family events then that is what is done.

My father is alive, but he and my mother are divorced. In fact, it is quite possible that my husband is the reason they divorced. They were having problems in their own marriage at the time the affair began.

I forgot to add...that has been my struggle up to this point. How do I even possibly move forward with either relationship without giving up at least one of them? And what a difficult decision....husband or mother? And the crazy thing is, when the affair ended, my husband forbid any contact between her and our children because of an offense my husband took to something her new husband said to him. Go figure...he did the right thing....just for the wrong reasons. Looking back, I was so young and naive. Every red flag under the sun was blowing right in my face, and I just refused to believe that either of them was capable of doing something so completely vile.

You don't. If you want to move forward in your marriage, then the relationship with your Mother/OW has to be ended. I realize that is not easy, but the alternative is even worse. We have others who have overcome affairs with family members and built great marriages but they had to do it at great personal cost.

You are going to pay a great cost no matter what you do, but if you eliminate your mother and focus on your marriage you can end up with a great marriage. [provided you BOTH are committed to this program] If you dump your husband you will have no marriage and a boat load of resentment.

YOU have to decide for yourself if you want to save this marriage. This is a great betrayal and none of us are qualified to tell you what is right for you. But one thing is for sure, if you want to save your marriage, you have to cut your mother out of your life.

Is there anything to save in this marriage? This marriage sounds like it has been your worst nightmare.

I know if I were in your shoes, I would never see or speak to my mother again regardless of the state of my marriage. I would have no problem doing that.

We've been together since I was 16, and he was 18. I've known nothing else for the last 23 years, and lived with an alcoholic father up to that point. It was through therapy quite a few years ago that I was able to acknowledge/distinguish what was abusive and what wasn't. For the last two or three years, things were actually looking much better. He had calmed down quite a bit, but yes, a lot of damage has been done. It's hard to put 23 years of history down in a couple of paragraphs.

As far as my mom goes, I haven't spoken to her in over a month, but some of her last words to me were to tell my H that we're family...the good, the bad, the ugly, it doesn't matter because we're forgiving and gracious.

My mother's side of the family loves to play the guilt card, and my father's side of the family swears an oath of silence - if you don't talk about it, it never happened.

Needless to say, this website has been an education for me. And what may be my saving grace.

"As far as my mom goes, I haven't spoken to her in over a month, but some of her last words to me were to tell my H that we're family...the good, the bad, the ugly, it doesn't matter because we're forgiving and gracious. "

Does she feel that she is entitled to forgiveness? Not only is she not entitled to forgiveness, but it is not in your best interest to have any contact with her.

We can help you save your marriage if you decide to do that. But that will only work if your husband is 100% committed and your mother is cut out entirely. Your husband would most likely have to attend anger manager because this program has a zero tolerance for abuse.

Have you told all of your family about the affair yet?

OMG, I am so sorry. Your mother is still dangerous to you. Her recent comment in order to protect herself and control your reaction: "We're family...the good, bad, and ugly, it doesn't matter because we're forgiving and gracious" is very telling. In the very least its a dismissive statement. She is saying to forgive her and your husband and keep this quiet. This is exactly what an alcoholic spouse does to their innocent children--ask them to keep secrets and cope with the transgressions alone or else. This is highly abusive and soul robbing.

I grew up w/an alcoholic father and very enabling mother. She is full of zingers like this too in order to protect herself. I can never expect my mother will protect me from her own abusive behavior. Its hard to face a betrayal like this whether a child or adult child.

She infected your husband. As a mother she disregarded her own child's primary attachment. And then she disrupted your primary attachment to your then new husband. This is sick.

Children of alcoholics can experience the worst form of abuse from the non-alcoholic parent. The good news is you are now an adult. As an adult you can find safe places to articulate this pain and protect yourself from your mothers chronic abusive way with you.

I have not suffered this kind of atrocity you are suffering. But I note similar aspects to my husbands betrayals and my mothers. I live several hundred miles away from my mother and keep my own emotional distance to keep safe. I have always longed to have a close relationship with her. I suppose its in our DNA to want this primary attachment to be in tact. It would have been nice to lean on her during trying times in my life. Unfortunately she does not have the capacity to support me. I've been fooled many times.

If at some point you decide to forgive--- it will be for yourself. It won't be to help your mother to continue to abuse you. She needs you to maintain a specific role. Whatever role that is ie "scapegoat" you are inadvertently remaining to serve has to be abandoned by you and your husband.

This MB program is a healthy model to follow. I know I received poor modeling in my childhood home. Dr Harley has carefully mapped out a healthy marital model to help push past the most damaging circumstances. Right now worry less about forgiving, trusting and being gracious (whatever that means to your mother) and serious seek safety.

2 months ago you discovered that two people who were supposed to love & protect you are liars, cheats, and they have no morals.


These 2 liars/cheats had no problem repeatedly shoving a knife in your back.


Your husband and your mother were so consumed with themselves that they ABANDONED their roles as 'father' and 'grandmother'. This was THEIR choice.


WH and OWWM (other-woman-wayward-mother) are likely to continue to lie to you in the future to hide their other hidden sins.


OWWM turned in her "mother card' for the OWWM card, and has voluntarily excommunicated herself from your life.


Many lives will never be the same. A family is ruined because of adultery/lies/selfishness/foolishness/lust/sin.


What the hell can WH do to 'make up for' for screwing OWWM for 4 years?
Just curious if you have an answer.


WH has never been a good husband, a good father, a good man.
Now that you see the light, WH is having his "come to Jesus" moment out of desperation.
Is this sincere? Perhaps. Perhaps not. Is WH a man who has a life-time of BAD HABITS and SELFISH BEHAVIORS? Most certainly.
Can WH change?
It will take years. Maybe 10 or more before WH can permanently unlearn a life-time of bad habits.



The MB concept to terminate a dangerous & abusive marriage applies.
Plan A is 100% a BAD IDEA.


Good for him. Want to test WH's sincerity?? Tell WH you want him to give you everything you ask for in a divorce. Only then will you recognize WH a changed man. An unselfish man.



You should DEAL with the facts. You should not try to "get past" the facts.
The fact is that these two people, WH and OWWM are both too dangerous to be around. They will ruin your future happiness.
The fact is that you are going to remain weak in their eyes unless you take positive steps to extricate them both from your daily life.



My opinion:
Divorce WH and get the most generous settlement possible.
Divorce OWWM and never look back. She is poison. Let God judge her. You protect yourself from her evil.

Call your Dad.
Tell him about the 4 years of adultery.
Ask for his support.

I'm so sorry this is happening to you.

I found some threads that the affair partners were family members.

I hope they help.
Delta's WH had an affair with her sister
Jimflint's WW had an affair with his brother

I agree with everything Pepperband wrote. This level of betrayal is astonishing. The only thing I would add is that you should not be afraid to confront anyone who knew about this and kept it secret from you. (I'm hoping that doesn't include your father or other family members.)

Coupled with 20 years of other abusive behaviors ... This is a WALL, not a door.

I have not told all of my family yet. My sister and brother and both their spouses know. My step-father, who helped end the affair, has known all along. Other than that, I am unaware of anyone else in the family who knows. I do plan on telling my father, very soon.

graceful....thank you for your words of support and encouragement. It's taken a circumstance such as this for me to take a good hard outsider's look on my entire life. It's hard, but eye-opening.

I also live several hundred miles away from my mother, which is a good thing. Having no contact with her will be easy, and I will navigate through the rest of this the best I can. I see now it's going to be a slow process, taking each day as it comes, and really seeking support, common sense advice, and prayer to deal with everything I need to.

As far as I know, my step-father is the only one who knew about this. As far as confronting him, I just don't see any reason to. He is married to my mom, whom I will have no contact with from here on out. This is hard enough as it is, and to me, would create an even bigger drama.

However, he was the one to break up the affair. When he came into the picture, and my H began to realize that the affair was going to end, H went nuts; was stalking my mom outside of her apartment, showing up at her work. I guess it was craziness, and my step-father threatened him with calling the cops if he didn't knock it off. My mother was concerned that when she told me the truth about what really had gone on between the two of them, my H was going to flip out in the same way, so she told me all of this as a warning. Of course, he didn't react like that in any way, shape or form. I guess some maturity has finally been realized on his part. I just am still in shock and disgust over the whole thing, regardless of the fact that it happened over ten years ago.

You are absolutely right...he is having his "come to Jesus" moment. The man hasn't stepped foot into a church the entire time I've known him. Now, church is his salvation as he has been attending every week for the past month. He even, on a spur of the moment, was baptized this past Sunday. He is desperately seeking answers to everything that has gone wrong in our marriage, from the infidelity, to the abuse, to the just basic mechanics of not knowing how to have a healthy relationship.

We both came from alcoholic families, and his father was very abusive - physically, verbally, and emotionally. His mother divorced him when my H was young, maybe 9 or 10. But even then, his mother was extremely controlling and did her best, but even she has her own set of issues. Screaming and yelling when something went wrong, and then 5 minutes later acting like it was over with. This was the behavior that transferred into our relationship. My H would become irate over the most common marital discussions, yell and scream, and then wonder why I was scared of him or an emotional mess. Granted, the majority of this behavior occurred around the same time the A was occurring, but doesn't excuse it at all. This behavior eventually broke me down to the point where I was admitted to a psychiatric program because my psyche completely shut down. Needless to say, the effects of this have lasted to this day. Even though he doesn't behave in this manner any more, I always anticipate that he will react badly. It's a bad situation all the way around.

Pepper-

Thank you for posting that inspirational message - when I read that - well, it was exactly what I needed.

WH is not the only one with bad habits. Do you know what I mean?
You need to do some unlearning as well.
Have you read anything about the "giver" and the " taker" all of us have?
Both love and care for a person. Both can be good. Both can be destructive.
Your giver cares about the needs of others. Your taker cares about the needs of you.
When you had your psych breakdown, that was your Taker grabbing the reigns and forcing you to take care of you.

Being in the Giver mode all the time is very unhealthy. Children of alcoholics often learn this as a means to survive childhood.

Here is a link that helps explain some ways you need to unlearn bad habits.

Link

I'm on my iPad at the Drs office. I can't seem to fix the link to Buyers Renters Freeloaders discussion on the MB 101 forum.

Yes, I hear you loud and clear. My therapist has also mentioned this. It is a struggle every day for me, but I am beginning to see how that is destructive in any relationship - between husband/wife, mother/child, etc. Finding a balance between the two is essential, and that is part of what I am seeking.

Buyers, Renters, & Freeloaders

You said the affair occurred more than 10 years ago, and your children were young at that time. So I'm assuming they are teenagers or young adults at this point. If you haven't already told them about the affair, you should. IMO, you should tell your kids and then you should tell your dad. And you should do it today.

Wow....thank you LongWayFromHome for that link. I am stunned at how much I've really been somewhere between a buyer/renter for almost my entire marriage. I have a lot of work to do.

Yes, my kids are 18 and 17. Husband does not agree and does not see the point. Right now, it's a hot button.

Husband does not agree and does not see the point.

PLEASE SHUT OFF YOUR DAMN GIVER, OKAY?

Let me rephrase your sentence in a more balanced and forthright voice, with the "taker" being in its necessary dominant position during your healing!

Husband does not agree because uncovering to his children the depth and viciousness of his betrayal of his family reveals his moral failures and weaknesses, leaving them instead trying to "guess" about the problems between their two parents, and likely according both of you some responsibility.

Repeat over and over: The BS decides what is required for recovery, and steers the recovery bus. The WS is out back, pushing!

Well, that right there tells you what you need to know about his "Come to Jesus" .... It is not authentic. WH is like the man who killed both his parents, then begs for mercy from the jury because he is an orphan.

WH is an abusive lying cheating man. Do you think his opinion carries much weight with us?
No.

Your children need to know so that they can understand why "grand-ma" is now & forever gone from your life. If they choose to have a relationship with grandma, and/or their dad, they can make that decision knowing the facts, and why they must take caution.

Are you afraid to tell your kids for fear WH will become abusive?

I am not afraid that he will become abusive (well, yeah, I kind of am afraid he will revert to verbal abuse, but he keeps telling me to stop assuming what his reactions are going to be). He told me last night that if we tell them the truth about him and my mom, then we tell them everything, i.e. the reasons why the affair happened in the first place.

Oh, this is ripe.
What, pray tell, are those reasons in the first place?

Edit to add: according to WH ... There are reasons .... Are the reasons mostly in your mother' s corner?

No, they are on me, and my husband. The lack of intimacy, lack of affection. At the time, he had an unending need for affirmation and attention that I was unable to provide because we had a 2 year old and a 6 month old. Unfortunately, it all started before we even got married, and it definitely reverts to what I've learned on here on about givers and takers. Having kids just magnified our problems.

CJA,

You need to sit the kids down and tell them the truth.

There are reasons, but NEVER excuses for an affair.

DO NOT let H bully you into NOT being O & H with your children...all parties must be exposed to.

CJA,

Those ARE NOT reasons for your WH's affair; those were problems with your marriage. Not a SINGLE ONE of those things held his hand and drug him into an affair! He chose that path completely on his own!

YOU were in the same M under the same conditions.
Did YOU go to bed with your FIL? Why not?

Something like that would never cross my mind. I don't care how vulnerable or miserable I was, I would never cross that line. I would never compromise myself or my family in that way.

Suggested exposure to older teen children-

Kids, I am sorry to tell you this, it is very sad but you deserve to know the facts.
I can no longer allow OWWM to be a part of my life.
The facts are that WH and OWWM had a 4 year sexual affair from (year to year).
I just learned about this fact.
I can no longer have OWWM in my life.
I am not certain if our marriage will survive this cruel abuse.
Do you have any questions? I will not lie to you or try to paint things rosy when things are very bad.

Regardless of our ages, which is what also comes up in our discussions....were too young, didn't know anything about being in a relationship.....which is very true. But, it still doesn't excuse any of it.

Great, Pep. Thanks.


CJA: there's your script...

Hot button meaning he might explode with anger?

Oh please .... I cannot resist ....

We were too young to get married, so I had sex with MIL.
We did not know anything about being in a relationship, so I had sex with MIL.
It rained on my parade, so I had sex with MIL.
It was a gloomy Thursday, so I had sex with MIL.
I was starving for pizza and you only served chicken, so I had sex with MIL.
I forgot to wind my watch, so I had sex with MIL.
You were busy raising my kids, so I had sex with MIL for FOUR YEARS

Hot button, meaning he totally disagrees with it. He doesn't see the point of dragging our kids into "our" problem. He feels like we would have to go to into intimate detail with them about all the "reasons", which I see now are excuses. And "hot button" meaning it could be something that may or may not trigger his anger, turning it around on me, and making it my fault.

Oh lord, this is a big mess. Thank you, all of you, for your advice, opinions, and support.

It's rather twisted, but I do find that quite funny! Thank you for making me laugh.

I would think a man who lived a lie that almost (could still) destroy his family would be chomping at the bit -- if he were truly committed to his wife and kids -- to EMBRACE and TELL the TRUTH to those he loved dearest.

And that would be a great FIRST step...

Please, just show the love and respect the kids deserve and tell them the truth.

I'm sorry CJA, your husbands affair with your mother is waywardness & perversion in my opinion. Your children and future generations need to know about this to protect themselves.

History will repeat itself in some form without O& H discussion w/your children. You may not realize it ---but YOU even have the potential to betray your own children in some fashion. When I have time I will tell you about my own experience.

If you have ever had CPR training its important to STOP. LOOK. LISTEN. This is one of those crisis to do just that. You need to get into a power position.

Your husband is crumbling. He wants to quickly and discreetly mop up the mess and get back to the way things were. He can no longer take the reins and reposition in a power space over you if you don't want let him.

We are here to help you STOP. LOOK. LISTEN.

As soon as I read "the reasons why the affair happened" I knew he was going to blame you. Do you realize that marital problems can make people more vulnerable to an affair, but they do not cause people to have affairs? Poor boundaries and a willingness to let someone other than the spouse meet intimate needs are what cause affairs. It is illogical and cruel of him to try to share the blame with you. He is 100% responsible for his own lack of boundaries.

Withholding this information from your kids is wrong on so many levels. Your husband and mother didn't just betray you, they betrayed your kids as well. Your kids deserve to know what has been under the surface, crippling your marriage for all these years. They need to understand the extent of the emotional abuse you are dealing with. Their father and grandmother aren't just waywards; they are perverts. I'm sorry, but that is the truth.

If you don't help your kids understand the disfunction, they may subconsciously recreate it by getting involved in abusive relationships when they grow up. If you love your kids, give them the information they need to break the cycle of abuse and protect themselves.

Thank you, graceful. I do need to get into a power position. It's long overdue.

You are so right, as it has already happened with my 16 year-old daughter; and my son, who puts everyone else's needs ahead of his own, has a hard time with relationships too.

If I knew then, what I know now......

What difference does that make? This is not a decision you make together. Just like his decision to have an affair was not a decision he made with you.

Tell them, and let the chips fall where they may. THEY DESERVE THE TRUTH.

Your children deserved a faithful father. He withheld that from them.

Your children deserve the truth. Don't be the one to withhold it from them.

x2! Letting your husband make this decision is like handing the car keys to a falling down drunk and then telling your kids to get in the car.

Your mother's behavior was the emotional equivalent of stabbing a knife in the back of her own child, repeatedly, over the course of 4 years. Her lack of maternal, protective instincts is breathtaking. Thankfully, you are not her. You can protect your kids, and you must. Be the kind of mother your kids deserve. Be the kind of mother you deserved. Protect your kids. Tell them the truth.

Here's the radio clip of Delta who's WH had an affair with her sister.

I posted her thread to you. I hope it helps.
Radio Clip of WH having an affair with her sister
Segment #2

If you don't tell your kids, they may end up saying the same thing when all of this eventually comes to light. And it will.

If I knew then, what I know now......

Wrong sentiment, friend. The proper question would be, "Given what I know now, what do I do tomorrow?"

As far as telling your children (btw: as a first start to telling your entire extended family - every aunt, uncle, cousin), place it in these terms:

Why would you want to lie to these young men?

Now a thought that it is probably not too early to cogitate on:

How desperate are you to remain married? It can almost be predicted, given WH's initial reluctance to manning-up about this, including his laughable threat to turn some blame onto you, that he will attempt the "If you go ahead (with exposure), I will leave you!" extortion ploy.

The trick is to find that sweet spot mentally/emotionally in which you very much WANT to be married, but do not in any way NEED to be married. Once you can put yourself there, the future decisions you will be presented with will seem much less draconian.

Dr. Harley on telling the children:

here

It doesn't matter what he wants. What matters is that your children know what he did with their skanky grandmother.

And he can't make it your fault unless you let him! All you have to do is say there is no excuse for an affair. You weren't meeting my needs either and I didn't have an affair with your father, so just knock it off.

Your husband is about as abusive as it gets. You are a grown up woman now and it is time to put a stop to this. All of his blame shifting tells me he does not take responsibility, which means he is dangerous. If he is not responsible for commiting such an act of cruelty against you, then you can assume it will happen again.

Your husband is a dangerous, abusive man.

At 18 and 17 years of age, they aren't even "kids" anymore. They have every right to know the truth about their own lives.

Neither you nor your husband have the right to deny them that.

Exposing this would provide you and your teenagers with a support system, but your self-absorbed husband "does not see the point" of that. Why are you claiming he is deeply remorseful and trying his best to make amends? He is trying his best to continue the deception!

Sometimes we have to cut toxic people out of our lives to protect our health.
Just because someone is a blood relation does not mean that they are allowed to abuse you.

Your mother says that family is the good bad and ugly? Well that IS a crazy statement. Does that mean that if you are related to a serial killer you have him over for dinner every Friday night because he is "family?"

Four years is much longer than a typical extramarital affair, and there is something about this that makes it much worse than a SIL or BIL affair. Unlike a sibling, a mother's most basic instinct should be to protect her child. Instead of protecting you, your mother repeatedly backstabbed you. I'm wondering if there is any psychological similarity between this situation and cases where a mother gets romatically involved with one of her kid's friends, or a teacher gets romantically involved with one of her students. It seems like there is an abuse of power underlying what your mother did to you. Maybe it is related to jealousy. Regardless, she wasn't "just" having an affair with your husband; she was attacking you. Have you considered writing to Dr. Harley about this situation?

Your situation is extraordinary and different than any other that I've read about on MB. I am so sorry that your are hurting so much.

What I have learned in the couple of months that I have been here is that anything your WS says is complete B.S. When he talks, then only sound that you should hear is the wha wha wha from charlie brown. Abosolutely nothing he says should carry ANY weight with you. Consider everything a lie and only for the purpose of his own selfish protection. Period.

The scars on your life (and your kids) need to be healed. Please focus on that and kick him (and MIL) to the curb. Take control of your life and healing. It may take you years to heal and trust even yourself again. Get started on that healing now.

I just had to pipe in to say

it is not so different to what other people have dealt with. I have read about it elsewhere (mothers cheating with son in laws), affairs that are many years.

Don't despair at the thought it is so different. It is just a more complex betrayal than many. More layers to give you emotional challenge.

Writing Dr. Harley at the radio show email might help you focus on steps you need to take to move into your future.

Did you tell the kids?
WH does not need to be there.

How many kids do you have?
What are their ages?

I was just curious.
She said the affair was 10 years ago and lasted about 4 years. She said they were 2 and 6 mos. at the time. She then says she has a 17 and 18 year old.

I'm not super good at math or anything, but that didn't make sense.

Good catch, Carka.

Just wanted to add, its not a 'hot button issue'

Its not his issue at all. Its your decision whether or not to be truthful with your children. Before they find out on their own.

Your H decided YEARS ago he was never going to tell anyone! Why would any man sick enough to screw his MIL share that with the world?

You only develop those sort of habits in a dark, deep secretive place with every window nailed shut. And he does NOT plan on coming outside to face the shocked faces in the sunshine.,

He is still living in a dark den of iniquity.

But IT'S NO SURPRISE. The real surprise is that you're squatting in there with him, hiding it too as though you have something to be ashamed of.

Stop asking your dishonest husband to be honest. Its foolish.

Just do the honesty yourself.

Right. He is not going to become honest without a major life change. Dishonesty has previously worked for him so well.

I know you haven't been back in a bit, and not sure you will be back. For anyone else following along.

Radio Clip on an Affair with a Family Member

How are you doing?

Thanks for asking. I was a little hesitant to come back and post anything else. I saw someone question the ages of my kids vs. my first post and didn't want to split hairs over something so silly. But, just to clarify, it was 13 years ago when the A ended, if that helps.

The A has long been over, so telling the kids was something I consulted with my therapist over, along with trusted family members, including my father (who I did tell - while hearing the truth did help explain some things that he could never quite figure out when he and my mom divorced, he told me he's been done with that part of his life for so long, he'd rather have not known and requested that no one else on his side of the family be told).

My daughter has a close relationship with my mom, along with my son. They have grown up with her, and to them, she is a good person, treats them well, and loves them dearly. I know this goes against EVERYTHING everyone has said thus far, and I fear that my decision will anger those who have been offering advice, but I have decided not to tell the kids at this time. My mother lives 400 miles away - we see her maybe 1 -2 times per year. I have no intention of letting her be a part of my life, i.e. communicating with her, visiting her, etc. As far as the kids go, again - we see her so rarely that at this point, not one thing is going to be noticeably different.

Since I posted last.....I will be filing for a legal separation. There is too much history, let alone the A, to salvage the marriage. Many of you are correct in that H has not yet humbled himself in a way that lets me know that he truly comprehends the destruction he has caused. In the meantime, he has made some questionable contacts with a couple of our mutual single girl friends - all innocent according to them all, but, whatever. I am done.

As far as how I'm doing.....I have my good days, and bad days. I have printed off many of the posts with the good advice that has been given - especially the post regarding "walls and doors", and that has helped me tremendously. Each day presents an opportunity for me to begin to find me again, discard some really old, bad habits, replace them with some new, healthier ones and just walk the path I am on.

And in regards to my post "If I knew then, what I know now".....I look back to when I was 16, and the first night this man walked into my life. He was having a fight with his girl friend, and came to me for advice. One thing lead to another and within a week, he had cheated on her with me, which then led to him breaking up with her - we have been together ever since. Since then, I have read many times....once a cheater, always a cheater. I just refused to believe the man I married was that man. But, he was. As soon as he doesn't have the full attention of the woman who has his heart, he turns to any woman within his proximity for affirmation and approval. And, he has done it already since the truth came out about the A. It saddens me that it's taken this long and this nasty of a situation for me to figure that out, but I have. Now, I can begin to rebuild my life.

Itsnosurprise,

Can't add anything except to say without complete and total remorse I would divorce too. It's difficult to comprehend what you are going through, hope you find some relief.

God Bless
Gamma

Contrary to the empty-headed teeny-girl mindset that dominates modern American culture......a sixteen year-old boy dumping his girlfriend for a more attractive alternative is not "cheating" as we use the term here. It's what dating is supposed to be about - trying on a new "mate" as one does a pair of shoes, looking for a good fit!

So stop the self-flagellation, okay? If that was the extent of WH's variable affections before boinking you Mom, you had no legitimate warning of what was coming.

And you are deluding yourself about the children. Just so you know you're NOT deluding us.

You will not hurt them with the truth. You are avoiding the issue because you have not the courage to do something difficult. That is yet another unfortunate trait of modern American culture, so, again, do not beat yourself up about it.

One thing about kids is, they will always wonder if they were the cause of the breakup if they are not told the truth. No matter how many times you say, "It's not your fault", they will wonder unless they actually know the truth. Protecting them from changing their relationship with your mom will hurt their relationship with you. It's one or the other... really. I personally would rather they have a good relationship with me and know the truth.

I totally get what you're saying. But, my kids have grown up in this household, have witnessed how big of a jerk their dad can be, have suffered from his outbursts and irrational behavior.....this split is not a surprise for either of them. Both of them want me to be happy, and my relationship with them has not changed. While their father's current behavior is confusing to them, I.e. attending church, being overly accommodating, etc., he also has reassured them that this split is 100% his fault. While it does leave questions for them, such as "why now?", they are not questioning the why.

I still maintain that the kids are better off knowing the truth. In the end, they may ask why didn't you fight just a little more. If not openly, they may think it. You could be saving them a lot of turmoil in the future if you just tell them.

I concur with JC. You should tell them as a parent. Openness and honesty is missing in many relationships today. My parents divorced and for years I thought I was the reason until I stumbled on court papers as a teenager showing my mom cheated on my dad. From there I had zero respect for both of them. Because my dad should of fought more for his marriage and my mom for being a WW. In mud eyes they were both and still at fault for different reasons. I am 31 and jus come to terms with it. I found out at 15, spare your adult children this turmoil and tell them the truth from your own mouth. As parents we forget how we are role models for our children and "protect them" from the world. Tell me when your WH and mom "protected" you from the pain of their affair. Did you appreciate it?

Excellent point, TD.

Thank you. I appreciate the update and I also appreciate your courage to tell us how you are deciding against our collective advice to expose to your older teen kids.

I have some more advice you may chose to ignore. I hope not. Here goes.

I strongly advise Plan B. A real one. With an IM.
Continued contact with your abusive WH would be the worst choice you could make. Worse than not telling your children. Continued contact will eat away any protection & peace of mind you are trying to achieve via a separation.

When a woman has been in an abusive M for a long time, she usually has lost all perspective about herself and her own ability to make right decisions. I cannot think of a current BW of the forum who would benefit from Plan B more than you.

You are better than you think you are. His bullcrap has worn you down to a nub. Get rid of ALL his attempts to wear you down, bully you.
Please, I beg you. Plan B. Ask the forum for the "how". Now you know the "why". It is more important than you can imagine. You will brighten up and radiate joy with Plan B. You will think clearly and have insights with Plan B. Without Plan B, your mind/thinking will continue to be coated with grey scum from his contact.


The above quote leads me to one more piece of advice.
Tell the kids you are separating and divorcing WH because "Dad committed adultery". Use those words.

Once you have mental clarity in Plan B, you may realize that your mother's betrayal needs to be revealed.
What are you going to do about big life events? Weddings? Graduations? Funerals?

((( BIG HUG )))

When they find out you have deceived them they will deeply resent you for tricking them. You are denying them the right to make their own determination about their own lives. That is disrespectful to them. And it allows your husband and their grandmother the room to lie to them. They will not appreciate your treatment when they find out what has happened.

Honesty is th solution to infidelity, not more lies. Children are not made happy or secure by believing lies and illusions about their parents.

I strongly urge you to reconsider that bad decision. Lying to children is not something any qualified psychologist would recommend.

Would your children believe she is a "good person" if they knew what a despicable thing she did to thief mother? You are denying them the right to make their own decision and tricking them into pursuing a relationship with a deplorable, sick, evil woman. Since your children do not know what she is really capable of, they are left vulnerable to her evil.

It is my opinion that Plan B will help itsnosuprise *think clearly* and the realization about telling her kids the truth TO PROTECT THEM will come with that clarity.

She's been in an abusive marriage far, far too long. Her OWWM is another abuser.

Definition of abusive:

That is so brutal and I'm so sorry!!!!!!!
You did the right thing by kicking him out.
I can't imagine....

When I was a little girl my parents would have aunts and uncles over on Sat nite to play bridge. I remember one Sat eve my Dad's sisters husband (uncle) came into the living room where my siblings and cousins were watching TV. I was 4 years old. He picked me up and placed me on his lap and fondled me. I sat stiff w/my muscles rigged and did not know what to do or say. I was so scared inside. This was the 50's ---long before the awareness & protections we have today.

Another time while visiting this Aunts home as a kid this uncle ran around the house in a open robe exposing himself. I appreciate now how he was grooming children to make his perversions seem normal.

My father really admired this uncle, his BIL. This uncle was placed in a mental hospital at one point. My Dad took me along with him to visit. It was actually the same hospital One Flew Over the Cookoo's Nest was later filmed w/Jack Nicholson. I guess I was brought along because it appeared to my parents my uncle would be cheered up with me along. Boy was I scared. I never told my Dad what was up. It was a creepy haunting place.

Then fast forward several years later. I was pregnant with my son, our second child. My Mom came for a visit. She mentioned how this uncle was coming around to visit my Dad. She also mentioned how his daughter, my cousin was not allowing him to be around her children. With all the awareness and protection concerns for children and my own need as a mother to protect my own children and others, I told my mother about this uncles grooming.

I was shocked with my own mothers response. Its now been 29 years since. But I remember what happened. The first thing she said was: "We can't tell your Dad. I don't know what he would do." She never extended a caring thoughtful response of concern for my welfare. This said it all and has affected my relationship with her today. My Dad had been an alcoholic. He's yet a dry drunk and she worried he'd be set off. No worry about protecting her own children or protecting other children. I knew I had to protect myself from her. She cannot not be trusted with truth. She has not been available to protect her children.

My husband had an affair with my sister. I know how painful the family interconnectedness is. It's tragic. There are lifelong and multi-generational consequences.

Tell your kids the truth. They deserve it. Everyone deserves the truth. Did you deserve the truth? Of course you did.

Stay away from your mother. And keep your kids aways too. Why would you want your children to have anything to do with someone who showed so little care and concern for you ... for them?

How are you doing? What's your relationship like with your siblings?