Hello all, I was wondering if anyone has experience on forgiving the affair partner(ow)? This is something that I know I am going to have to do. I don't want to walk around with anger and resentment forever. Its only been 3 months but I'm tired of tired of her consuming my thoughts. I also know that we all fall short and if God can forgive me for all the rotten things I've done, surely I can forgive her!... But how??

You need to forgive her for yourself, not for her. She is not worth your anger, resentment or time. Don't beat yourself, this is still raw for you. You WILL be able to let it go. Time helps and heals.

For me, although this path is NOT one I'd have chosen for my life, I AM thankful to be the much better person I am today. I know I would not be who I am today if I had not gone through the hard parts. I also appreciate much more how HARD it is for God to forgive us! Having to forgive someone else for a terrible wrong gives you a whole new perspective on that.

Learning2love, it's been about four years for me and I'm still not sure I've forgiven the OW, and I had more than one to forgive! I heard all of the familiar "you do it for yourself" lines and thought them lame, but in the end, it's the truth. Not only because you don't want to hold onto all of the bitterness, but it's for the sake of your ETERNITY. God doesn't suggest we forgive, He demands it of us if we want to be forgiven by Him. As a Christian, I want to please God more than I want to hang onto the anger/pain. Is it easy? NO. I have to WILL myself to release them. I fear each day that God is going to place one of them in my path just to test me!! Fortunately, that hasn't happened as I'm not positive that I'd pass the test! I'm a work in progress as you will be, too. Give yourself time and don't be too hard on yourself. We can't just wave a magic wand and have all thoughts and feelings of unforgiveness disappear. For me, I began just mouthing the words, "I forgive," knowing that God knew my heart and that I wasn't quite "there" yet. But it was a start and that's what He requires. I read a number of books on forgiveness, but only a couple really touched me. I need to dig them out to give you the correct titles, but I'll do so tomorrow. Hang in there. You are VERY early in the process. God bless.

Well, I'll be the odd man out and say I don't think forgivness is required when no repentence is shown. Also, Christ like forgivness is what we strive for but sometimes the wrong is so grievous that as humans we really aren't expected to forgive.I believe the betrayal of adultery (where there is no repentence) falls in that category. However, that is a totally different animal than letting go of anger. She isn't worth your anger-but letting go is a process and you have to be easy on yourself.

I agree that the anger will only eat away at you, so for YOURSELF it's best to let it go. Now, I personally am so far from forgiving that it's not even funny. I would still like to see OW rolled over by a dump truck and then fed to sharks. But, as a wise friend said to me, forgiveness is different from forgetting. Focus on how PATHETIC OW is, that she could do this and be okay with it, and then just keep on doing it! Forgive her because she's so pathetic she's not worth your anger. Forgive her because she has no redeeeming qualities that outweigh all the greatness of your own person. Forgive her because she's so lame she can't even find a man who's not married and because she doesn't have the self dignity to stay away from married men. BUT do NOT forget the wrong she has done you.

Easier said than done, I know. I am still working on this myself.

ITA. I know that God forgives me for not forgiving the OW.

I have been in R for 1 year & 8 months now. It never occurred to me to forgive OW. And I never will. Want to hear something funny? At D-Day she claimed that she was the victim because my H 'led her on' and 'got into her brain'! SHE was the victim, not me!

We joke a lot about the karma bus around here, but it's true - the OP will be struck by the bus eventually.

I only wish I could be front row and center with my box of popcorn when it does. It's nice to see justice meted out.

Am I angry at her? Sure, to a degree. Would I be less angry if I forgave her? No. Because SHE wouldn't get it - she's the victim, remember?

Prisca and I agree with your take on this, and we were having a similar discussion about something else the other day.

We would advocate letting go, but not feeling an obligation to forgive someone who is not repentant.

The most important question in this discussion: is the OW still a presence in your life in any way? If so, that needs to be eliminated.

I agree, run over by a dump truck and then throw them in the shark tank......hehe!!!
I'm not ready for anything like that right now. She hasn't shown any remorse, selfish, narcistic human being.......she could fall off the face of the earth for all I care.........
she knew what she was doing, it wasn't just a mistake, it was a plan........does that deserve my forgiveness, no sir......

I should also add: when their A started heading south, OW started dating all notes and letters my H gave her. She later attempted to imply sexual harassment, using all these dated notes, emails, etc. She and her H attempted to get money from my H's employer that way. Thankfully, the charge was professionally investigated and involved attorneys, so their attempt didn't go anywhere.

Nope. I don't see anything forgiveable with this piece of trash.

Caveat: every sitch has its own personality. I'd like to think, in a perfect world, that the OP falls to their knees at the feet of the BS, begging for forgiveness through their tears. I would be a heartless person to refuse to forgive under those circumstances.

My sitch? Sitting here, waiting for the bus. With my popcorn. She's several states away now, but I like to think a loving God will let me know when her bus arrives.

Agree.

This is such an interesting topic and I must say forgiving OW NEVER entered my mind.
When I first discovered the A, I text and called her telling her we needed to talk as I had questions that only she can answer, she never responded. At this point, she did not know (at least not for sure) that I was now aware of the affair. When she was confronted by her H, she first denied, then went on the attack, accusing him of having had an A, but is now happy cause she got found out first.
She eventually did text me with some rather lewd stuff about my WH's anatomy.
I say all this to ask, does this sound like someone that deserves forgiveness? I think not.
Now, I found some rather lewd pictures that she took in MY kitchen, so I sent them to all the people I had exposed to( a total of 7) now there are those out there, albeit few in number who feel I should not have exposed the pictures, so now they have OW as a victim.
I'm sorry guys, the thought of forgiving OW is not even on my radar. Am I angry? you bet your sweet a$$, she ended up also hurting my DD, because she was someone that DD used to go to for advice if she did not like the advice I gave her, so DD is going through a lot of turmoil.
Forgiveness? NEVER.
Unfortunately, we live in a not too large country, she works at the airport, I just returned from a trip and had to see her, let me tell you this, if she is feeling any remorse, she is doing a helluva job covering it up, she was doing her darndest to get my attention, I did the greatest job of ignoring her, the problem is, seeing her reignited my anger against WH for putting me in this position.

I refuse to forgive anything that cannot discern that they've done anything wrong.

I used to have difficulties with this. Now, not at all.

Learn, are you trying to forgive her because she still works down the street from where you live? Do you see her constantly? Is someone suggesting that you forgive her? Is it a forgive and we can move past this?

You see, I am dealing with an ACTIVE affair so the OW in my sitch is definitely NOT forgivable to me since she continues to act in a selfish way. I don't truly believe that I will forgive her, ever. What I do hope for is that one day, A LONG TIME FROM NOW, that I just go some time without thinking about her. That she becomes MEANINGLESS to me. THAT is it. Even if she redeems herself and changes her ways, it won't matter to me anymore. That's my goal.

NP and scotty are dealing with active A's so forgiveness is not in the cards most likely.

I thought I would never get to the point of even considering forgiveness. However just a few days ago I got a heartfelt apology from OW. It took a lot of weight off my heart and I think forgiveness will be a possibility at some point.

During our FR, I received a seemingly heartfelt apologetic paragraph from OW. I wrote her a simple thank you. It turned out that apology was required by OWH, she did not want to do it, and it took her more than 2 hours to come up with five sentences. To top it off, my H knew all about it.

Forgive this lower than life female. I don't think so. It is taking all my energy to forgive my H, who is very repentent.

AM

Here's how I look at my situation. I don't know if this is forgiveness or not... I just know that I've let go of my anger and bitterness for my own sake.

OW#1 wasted 5 of the best years of her life (Age 25-30) on my WH, a man she could never have. He ultimately dumped her. I don't know if she ever found anyone who could actually be a H to her, but I wouldn't want to be her.

OW#2 threw away her marriage, relationship with her kids to be with a man who's family and kids won't have anything to do with her. I think they're still together, but all they have is their fantasy land. I sure wouldn't want to be her!

WH threw away his loving wife and a day-by-day relationship with his kids, lost his job, his friends, his house, even his freedom for a while. For what? What a waste. Wouldn't want to be him!

Me: what I have is so much more than a marriage with a WH. I have the love, respect and daily interaction with my kids. I have the love and respect of my friends and family. I'm at peace with God and with myself. I've been sucussful at my job beyond my wildest dreams. In short... I'm happy and I LIKE myself.

When I look it it that way it's not too hard to let go.

I agree with you, I am having such a hard time forgiving or even starting to forgive my WH, and he is presenting a picture of being very repentant. I have no energy to waste on trying to forgive OW.
I don'y trust WH, and I would not trust a word that comes out of OW's mouth.

Boy, I was really surprised that no one else supports my "forgive" take when it comes to the OW. And believe me, I have thought and felt the same way as the rest of you...even dreaming up the most sadistic forms of revenge! The women who had affairs with my husband were his employess - one, of twenty years. Why, I'd bought more Christmas presents for her than her own husband! I'd agreed to help her family out financially, even took her and her husband to Hawaii with us on a business trip - paid for by my husband and me! She completely betrayed my daughters and me. But that's not the point. Strictly coming from a Christian perspective, I HAVE to forgive...not that I WANT to.
I mentioned two books on the subject in my earlier post: Choosing Forgiveness by Nancy Leigh DeMoss and Forgiveness by John MacArthur. As Christians we are instructed to forgive WHETHER THE OFFENDER IS REPENTENT OR NOT...whether the person who's wronged us is even still alive, in which case we wouldn't even know if he/she was repentent. Nancy states "... is there a threshold of pain beyond which we are not required to forgive, one perhaps where it is impossible to forgive?...You may not feel any natural 'great love' toward the one who brought such shipwreck into your life - the one who trampled on your marriage vows,or the one who abused you as a child...no one would expect you to. But the power - and the beauty - of the transformed Christian life is that "it is God who works in you both 'to will' and 'to do' for His good pleasure." It will never be the depth of your love that causes you to forgive such heartless acts and attitudes. It will never be within your power to overlook the wicked lies and wild justifications of those who have made you distrustful of just about everybody. It will be - it can only be - the love of Christ transplanted into your believing heart that can exchange your weakness for His strength. And so because He has forgiven us - and because of His boundless life that now indwells us - what offense is too great for us to forgive? "To be a Christian," C.S. Lewis said, "means to forgive the inexcusable, because God has forgiven the inexcusable in us." When it comes to forgiveness, our Lord would not command us to do something that he did not enable us to do. Or that He hasn't done himself...We sometimes feel that when we forgive someone, justice will not be served. They'll get off scot-free...from a human perspective, this makes sense. But our minds need to be renewed to think God's way. According to God's Word, wrongdoers will get their just due. But we're not the ones to mete out the just penalty. When we try to keep someone "on the hook," we're assuming a role that belongs to God alone...what feels like the height of unfairness,what seems to be nothing more than giving our offender the pass, actually becomes a step of freedom for us...if your heart is so bitter or vengeful - if you are being vindictive, obsessed with revenge, inwardly hoping to see their downfall - then you are still holding onto the controls. Even if you bring the offender to justice, you won't experience the freedom God offers. In reality, you are keeping yourself imprisoned by the offender...I am not suggesting that we should shield others at all costs from the consequences of their actions, or just take everything they inflict upon us and sit there doing nothing. I'm saying that their judgment before God is not ours to accelerate...we must remember that their real business is with God. He WILL repay." And Macarthur says, "For a Christian to be WILLFULLY unforgiving is unthinkable. We who have been forgiven by God Himself have no right to withold forgiveness from our fellow sinners. In fact, Scripture plainly commands us to forgive in the same manner as we have received forgiveness...since God commands us to forgive others, refusing to do so is an act of direct disobedience agains Him. (i.e. sin) Forgiveness reflects the character of God. Unforgiveness is therefore ungodly."
With all of this said, I repeat, forgiving the OW isn't something I wanted to do, my beliefs simply require it. And if you're not a Christian, think of it as KARMA. In my own case, the second OW is an alcoholic, has lost her last two jobs and continues to be unemployed, was cheated on by her own husband (go figure - you'd think she'd have known first-hand the trauma she was inflicting on another woman and family) and my husband now has an aneurysm the size of a tangerine!! Even if the offender repents, God STILL DEALS WITH THEIR SIN! They DO NOT get off scot-free!! So, Christian or not, don't spend your life seething in anger and thoughts of revenge - you're just letting those who abused you continue to do so. If you ARE a Christian and believe that holding onto unforgiveness is ok, I hope you'll do some additional study on the issue. I am NOT passing judgment. As I said, I have to WILL myself not to let bitterness and unforgiveness take over each and every day. (and remember, I'm 4 YEARS into this) The devastation of adultery has left me with areas of my life that need more attention. I don't want my H or his OW to cause me to miss out on another day of peace. If I allow that, they/Satan keep "winning," and I, for one, am ready for a little victory. I pray for peace for ALL of us.

You are exactly where I would like to be and I envy that. It is obviously too soon for me but I hope to get there one day. Perhaps my inability to see possible forgiveness of OW is because there is a separate betrayal issue as between she and I, based on the fact that she was supposed to be a "friend".
But I admire your success especially given the fact that there were 2 As. And I am especially intrigued by your situation, in that, you are the first poster that I have seen since I came to this site, who dealt with a 5 year affair( same as mine); the length of this affair is giving me a real difficult time and I would love to hear how you have managed to get where you are.

I am new to MB and come to it through the counselor I've been seeing for almost four years. My husband has recently approached me about reconciling - I filed 3 1/2 years ago but still have not had a court date. I don't know all of the ends and outs of posting on MB yet (i.e. how to link), but to give you a little background on my situation look under forums, then under infidelity, then surviving an affair, and then go back a couple of pages to "could it get any worse?" I'd love to share what I've learned, and believe me, I am only recently in a forgiving way!! It takes time, but I think my situation is unique because of the length of our separation and the number of affairs. Also, the length of the marriage. I've never posted to any other site, so having a way to "vent" with the fellow-betrayed is a great outlet. Even though, as I quickly discovered, not everyone will agree with you!!! Please feel free to ask me anything. I may come across as a religious zealot, but that's not the case...born and raised Methodist, raised my kids the same, thought I had a good faith, but only since D-Day have I truly discovered what a strong faith means. I would have given up long ago without God's presence, support, direction, and comfort throughout. I have done spiritual warfare on a daily basis and unbelievable scale. I never could have imagined a depression so dark and lengthy. I have prayed for my husband every single day, and yes, even on the days when I hated him. Don't know why, and don't know why I felt inclined to do so when others don't, but it's brought me to a place where I can find peace in every day - maybe not happiness just yet, but I'm thankful for peace.

baffled, I am a FWW, so realize from the get go I have never worn these shoes. But you and I do share one eternal thing in common - our faith. If you feel God impressing you to forgive someone....then doing your best to obey Him is the most important thing you can do. I admire your desire to do that, and I understand why even considering forgiveness would be very very hard.

There is no way I can get inside the mind and heart of the betrayed. So I will paste my DH'd words. They apply not only to me, but by his own statement, they also apply to the OM.

"Because I have been forgiven much, I too must forgive. But, I've also learned why Jesus suggested that we may need to forgive as many as seventy times seven. Sometimes the wound goes so deep that saying you forgive once and for all is simply not possible. It's like putting a bandaid over a stab wound. The hurt is so deep that it takes time and care. Such offenses cannot be forgiven just once, but must be forgiven over and over again. I'm thankful that God has the ability to forgive me once and for all. But, I'm not going to beat myself up for getting sad or angry again and again after a deep wound is inflicted on me. It is not a failure to be human and acknowledge the pain that is there. It is not a failure to realize that you need to lay it down again and forgive. I will make it a point to not pick at the wound. That will only cause the wound to become infected. That will hurt even more and will require much longer for healing. I will make it a point to put the balm of forgiveness on the wound each time it hurts me instead of picking at it. Eventually, the wound will heal. But, it must heal from the inside out, and that takes time. The scar will always be there as a reminder. But, the pain eases with each passing day. No, I may never be the same. But, I will one day be able to walk and leave it all behind. I will one day only remember the hurt when I see the scar. Then, I can be thankful that the pain is gone. When Jesus looks at his scars, does he think of me?"

Baffled, forgiveness is hard. It's not a one-time thing. And many many people - even experts - advise against it. But I have recently rediscovered that as a Christian.....there is really only one Book that I am accountable to follow to the letter. And the Person who wrote it has forgiven me of more than I can even describe.

Baffled

All I can say to you is welcome to this site. I wish that I had known about it before but, there is a reason why things happen the way they do.
Like you I am also Methodist. I keep begging God to see me through this very ugly time, I am not at the point of praying for WH, I am having too many conversations with God asking him to help me get through the next hour. I am only 4 months into my situation but I have discovered another side of me that I did not know existed, probably because I have never been so hurt in my life before by someone who I have trusted so implicitly. My world has changed and I know it will never ever be the same again, but I am at least starting to recognize that in many ways, that may be a a good thing.
Being able to come here and vent has been a source of great comfort although, sometimes I get no response and it only serves to maximize my pain.
But I keep on trying and so should you, just hang in there.

baffled, I don't agree that we are commanded to forgive without repentance. Jesus says otherwise: If your brother sins, rebuke him, and IF HE REPENTS, forgive him (Luke 16:3-4)

Forgiving without repentance is not God's standard of forgivness for US, so it makes no sense to imagine that we have a higher - or different - standard than God. This is like saying we should forgive someone that even GOD has not forgiven. God does not hand out forgiveness like cheap candy to those who don't want it so why would we? Who are we to say that we are better than God and should forgive someone that he does not?

I agree that we should be willing to forgive those who ask and who are repentant but forgiving those who don't want or need our forgiveness is little more than an empty feel good measure that achieves nothing. It most certainly does not affect the offender in any way, shape or form. Empty, feel good, and meaningless.

The purpose of forgiveness is to reconcile with our brother. In the case of the OW, it would not be wise to ever reconcile with such a person.

Thankfully, one does not have to offer fake forgiveness to alleviate resentment. That can be done without an empty act of "forgiveness" that is unwanted or unneeded by the OW.

This subject is covered well in the book Bold Love by Dr Dan B Allender:

Biblical forgiveness is never unconditional and one-sided. It is not letting others go off scot-free, "forgiven", and enabled to do harm again without any consequence. Instead, forgiveness is an invitation to reconciliation, not the blind, cheap granting of it.

Jesus says, "...If your brother sins, rebuke him, and IF HE REPENTS, forgive him (Luke 16:3-4). Jesus makes it clear that forgiveness is conditional. We are not to rebuke unless a sin has been committed, nor are we to forgive unless true repentance has occurred. This strikes many Christians as wrong...


The point for us is crucial. Reconciliation is not to be withheld when repentance-that is, deep, heart-changing acknowledgment of sin and a radical redirection of life-takes place in the one being rebuked. Nor is reconciliation to be extended to someone who has not repented. Forgiveness involves a heart that cancels the debt but does not lend new money until repentance occurs. ...cheap forgiveness-peace at any cost that sacrifices honesty, integrity, and passion-is not true forgiveness.
The authors go on to say that the Christian should remain open and receptive to forgiveness but forgiveness should not be cheap...

pages 162-163:

A forgiving heart opens the door to any who knock. But entry into the home (that is, the heart) does not occur until the muddy shoes and dirty coat have been take off.

So there remains a desire for forgiveness and redemption...

Forgiveness always involves the strongest emotions of the soul. It always beats with a fervor for the offender.....

Dr Harley, a bible believing Christian, touches on this subject in his article about forgiveness:

Try getting the OW out of the majority of your thoughts. But you do not have to "artificially" try and push yourself to FORGIVE HER!!!

Geeze. Would you forgive HITLAR????

You would be crazy to do that.

Your feelings of unforgiveness are very valid. Stick with them.

If she came crying and begging for forgiveness to you and you could see she was repentant, then...maybe then....only then....you could forgive her.

Baffled, I say again, the only Person you need to obey is the God you believe in...and the only book that really counts is His Word. I will never talk a person of faith out of a conviction God has given them....ever. Even if every citizen reports or ignores or whatever.

But wouldn't you challenge them to validate their "conviction" through the Bible? Our source is supposed to be the Bible, not our convictons. How else would I know that conviction comes from God unless I validate it? Believe me, I have had lots of convictions in my life, and some of them did not come from God! They came from my own wishful thinking.

As with any subject, there will be varying opinions on forgiveness. All I can say is that I tried to move on, get the continual and harassing thoughts of the OW out of my head, and I was not able to do it alone. And interestingly enough, Nancy DeMoss addresses Hitler and the Germans in her book, including excerpts from Jews who suffered greatly at their hands, but still forgave. In one instance a converted Dutch Jew, who struggled with his belief in forgiveness while in captivity, cries out to God, "I can't, Lord...how impossible is forgiveness of that magnitude!" But forgive he did, even going so far as to visit the dying commandant of his prison after the war, kissed his head, and brought him to Christ. Obviously, this was an extreme case in the grand scheme of things, but I tell you, thinking of forgiving the OW was as difficult for me as it must have been for this Jew! But as N. DeMoss continues, "For a Holocaust survivor, for you and for me, forgiveness is indeed a supernatural thing. It's not something we can do ourselves." And as I said above, I could not do it alone. This was MY way to release the anger and bitterness. If any of you is content to hold onto those, it's your choice. I just preferred not to. And as far as Dr. Harley's thoughts on forgiveness, and while I am very impressed with his approach to saving marriages and/or building strong ones, I think he's missing something on this subject. There's a difference between forgiving the wayward spouse and TRUSTING him/her. It seems to me that if one is constantly expecting "repayment" from the WS, never letting the WS forget the offense, then that marriage will constantly be filled with Love Busters and will eventually crash and burn. That doesn't mean that the WS is not held accountable, but if the OS is forever holding it over the WS's head, neither will move on. Forgiving allows the WS the opportunity to willingly an enthusiastically offer the OS the EN that were unmet in the first place. Now I haven't even decided myself if I want to reconcile with my WH. But if I do, it will NOT be in an atmosphere that continues to keep his As at the forefront of my thoughts, for then they continue to be on the forefront of his as well. Forgiving, for me, is just the best way of moving on - with or without my spouse. Forgiving doesn't mean that I have to ever be around the OW again or my H if that's what I choose. It means I free myself of carrying their sins around with me the rest of my life. Who wants that?

MelodyLane, Obviously, I am basing my thoughts on my own belief-system and specific authors who have helped me, just as I'm sure you are. In comparison,but also similarily, John MacArthur writes, "How can forgiveness between fellow sinners be compared with the forgiveness of an offended deity?...Scripture instructs us to forgive in the same manner as we have been forgiven. This idea occurs in two verses: Ephesians 4:32 "Forgive each other just as God in Christ also has forgiven you", and Col 3:13 "just as the Lord fogave you." Some take the position that this teaches forgiveness should always be conditional. Their rationale goes like this: God forgives only those who repent. Therefore, if we are going to forgive in the same manner as we have been forgiven, we should withhold forgiveness from all who are unrepentent...To make conditionality the gist of Christlike forgiving seems to miss the whole point of what Scripture is saying. When Scripture instructs us to forgive in the manner we have been forgiven, what is in view in NOT the idea of withholding forgiveness until the offender expresses repentance. (Matt 6:12, 14-15;James 2:13;Matt 18:35; Luke 6:36-38. The emphasis is on forgiving freely, generously, willingly, eagerly, and speedily - and from the heart. The attitude of the forgiver is where the focus of the Scripture lies not the terms of forgiveness. Most of those who hold that forgiveness is conditional portray forgiveness as a formal transaction in which the forgiven one must repent and the offended party promises never to bring up the sin again. If this transaction has not occured, they say real forgiveness has not taken place. In some cases the offender may repent and ask forgiveness without prompting and forgiveness should be granted on the spot...but in most cases... the offended party must confront the offender and formally solicit repentance before he/she can forgive. In short, no act of forgiveness can occur until the offender asks for forgiveness. Sadly I have seen people who hold this opinion and become obsessive confronters...others nurse grudges, refuse to relinquish bitterness...justifying such attitudes because they are convinced they have no duty to forgive until the offender repents. While it is often true that forgiveness involves a two-way transaction, it is not tru of ALL forgiveness. There are times when forgiveness should be unconditional and unilateral, and there are other times when forgiveness must be withheld until the offender repents.

baffled, I think its important to ask oneself exactly WHY you want to adopt this brand of cheap forgiveness. I once believed as you did. As anyone else who believes it, they will be the first to admit that this type is forgiveness achieves one thing and one thing only: good feelings for SELF. ["i wanted to feel better"]

Like you said, it was to get harassing thoughts of the OW out of your head. It benefited the OW in absolutely no way, shape or form. It is a selfish act to forgive one against their will. It is purely for SELF.

I say that as one who once mis-used the gift of forgiveness in this way.

I will admit that when I did this one-sided forgiveness, I always made sure that others knew I had done it so I could get credit and attention for it. More of the same "feel good" behavior....for SELF.

Forgiveness by definition is a two way street leading to restoration of a relationship. It requires someone who is willing to be forgiven and someone is wanting to forgive. If you are to forgive me, I must be repentant; otherwise there will be no restoration of fellowship.

WE can't suppose that our standard is higher than God's. Who are we to forgive someone that God does not? God does not force his forgiveness on us like cheap candy, against our will. He objectively offers us forgiveness and the restoration of fellowship, but his forgiveness is not subjectively realized until we repent.

It was this verse that really made me think: LUKE 17:3-4
3 "Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.
4 "And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day returns to you, saying, `I repent,' you shall forgive him."

This is exactly true. And we both know that God does not force his forgivness on people against their will when they refuse to repent. Like I posted before, we should never suppose we have a higher standard than God.

"Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.
4 "And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day returns to you, saying, `I repent,' you shall forgive him."

Continuing, MacArthur details the differences between the two kinds of forgiveness, which is where he connects with what you were saying MelodyLane. "It is a mistake to assume that verses like Luke 17:3 and Matt 18:15 are absolute prescriptions for every kind of transgression." MacArthur then addresses the kinds of misdeeds that require unconditional, unilateral forgiveness. If forgiveness is defined as a two-way transaction then no room is left for unconditional forgiveness. However, in believing in distinguishing the two, MacArthur details when to forgive unilaterally and when confrontaion with the expectation of repentance is expected - which is of course more serious offenses like adultery. "Sins that require confrontaion because of their potential for harm to the sinning person include serious doctrinal error, moral failure, repeated instances of the same offense, sinful habits, or destructive tendancies, or any other serious transgressions that poses a serious threat to the offender's spiritual well-being. In such cases, confrontation should be motivated by love and a desire for the offender's good. Such confrontation should never be used to gratify a thirst for personal vengeance, to punish the offender, or to fulfill any other self-aggrandizing purposes. That is why Gal 6:1 expressly says that those who are spiritual should deal with the sinning individuual...Open sin is always a scandal in the church and must be dealt with. it is not our perrogative to forgive those intent on living in flagrant disobedience." Another chapter goes into the steps involved when sin needs confrontaion including, confrontation in private, taking witnesses, telling the church, and the unfortunate regarding the offfender as an unbeliever if he/she doesn't repent, which is what I think you were addressing, MelodyLane.
But for me, MacArthur's folowing words are what I took to heart for my recovery; "Forgiveness certainly does not come naturally for fallen creatures. We tend to be driven too much by our feelings. Those who indulge themselves in bitter felings will find forgiveness does not easily germinate in such soil. Instead, the root that springs up is a defiling influence. It is hurtful not only to the bitter person, but to many others as well. (Heb 12:15) Forgiveness is often frustrated by negative emotions, lingering resentments, and unquelched anger. Some imagine, wrongly, that thay cannot forgive if they don't "feel" like forgiving...but forgiveness is not a feeling. Those who insist on being driven by passion will find forgiveness very hard indeed, because forgiveness often involves a deliberate choice that runs contrary to our feelings. Bitter emotions tell us to dwell on the offense. In contrast, forgiveness is a voluntary, rational choice to set the offense aside..brooding over an offense is no less a sin than lust or covetousness or any other heart-sin. A willful choice must be made to turn away from that kind of thinking...those who forgive invariably find that the proper emotions will follow: "Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you" (Luke 6:27:28) - those are all willful, deliberate, rational acts, not emotional reflexes...Forgiveness results in the lifting of many burdens. To grant someone forgiveness when he/she repents is to lift the burden of guilt from that person. But to forgive when forgiveness is unilateral and unconditional liberates the forgiver to enjoy the even greater mercies given in return by a generous heavenly Father,..."
And with that, I'll conclude my thoughts. This is what worked for ME. I don't expect everyone to agree. I'm not a debator or theologian. I just try to seek God in ALL things, even the heartache that comes from adultery, and this is how I have found peace.

Baffled, you have used many of the Scriptures I was referring to, so thanks for posting those. I think that the divergence comes sometimes when we think that forgiveness requires reconciliation. In other words, if a relationship cannot be restored, there can be no forgiveness. I think about the family friend who repeatedly molested me. He was like a second father. He never asked forgiveness, and I am certainly not going to seek a relationship with him. But I have forgiven him. And it is not something I shout from the rooftops. It just is. In the same way that some wear their "cheap forgiveness" as a kind of cloak of righteousness, some exude unforgiveness as a bitterness that can be seen, heard, and even felt.

I do not hold to the exact view of forgiveness as everyone else, not do I believe they have to hold to mine, just like the definitions of modesty, social drinking, the evilness of Harry Potter, and such may vary from Christian to Christian. I was not always this way. I grew up in a church where there was only one right way to do everything. Only one acceptable way to think. And with my addictive personality, I ate it up. It shook my faith a bit the first time I realized that someone who listened to rock and roll music could still love Jesus But we are going to share eternity with a whole lot of people who do not see every single thing the way we do, and you know, that really is okay.

I say all that, baffled, to say that I have recently been down this road on another topic, and I finally realized that I could either do what a human insisted I do, or I could do and be what I KNOW God wants me to do. Because of what I have been reading in the Bible. That got me some flak, and it will likely continue to do so. But I also realized that hiding in the corner in shame over what I KNOW to be right is not the answer.

Good luck to you, whatever you decide God wants you to do.

Thanks for your perspective, baffled. I don't agree for the reasons I gave, but we don't have to agree. Thanks for the discussion.

I will never forgive her. The wrong was to great, the remorse...there was none.

This thread couldn't have come at a better time for me.

My attitude from the start was that I would never be able to forgive OW. I don't even know when it happened, but I think I got to a place where I didn't think about her too much and (mostly) didn't feel angry when I did think of her.

But a few weeks ago, I heard a broadcast sermon (for work reasons) about how Jesus taught us about forgiveness and wants us to forgive those who have sinned against us.

Ever since then, I have been thinking a lot about it. I have prayed about it. I tried to tell myself since I wasn't bitter anymore that I did "forgive" her...I even said it out loud to myself. But afterwards I have been struggling w/conflicting feelings. I thought that maybe I had triggered myself and that was the cause for all these emotions.

No, it is because I can't force myself to forgive her nor should I. That was just causing me to feel MORE resentment, not less.

Thank you Mel for that post. I am at peace with the idea that should she ever ask for my forgiveness and shows remorse I can reconsider at that time. I feel so much better!

MelodyLane, I, in no way meant to start a great debate on forgiveness or to elevate myself to some higher standard than others by expressing my thoughts. And I certainly have not chosen, or am WORKING ON the path of forgiveness, just for SELF. Until this forum, and except in the privacy of my counselor, have I even addressed my forgiveness, or lack thereof with another person. I hoped that by explaining how I released the toxic burden of my husband's affairs, that maybe someone else might benefit. I certainly didn't expect to be attacked for my beliefs. My forgiveness is not cheap nor has it come cheaply. Unlike you, I did not attempt to make myself feel better by advertising that I'm a forgiving being and it wasn't done to benefit the OW, however I do hope they've repented. To quote MacArthur one last time, and then I'm just going to agree to disagree: "Unforgiveness is a toxin. It poisons the heart and mind with bitterness, distorting one's whole perspective on life. Anger, resentment, and sorrow begin to overshadow and overwhelm the unforgiving person - a kind of soul-pollution that enflames evil appetites and evil emotions. Forgiveness is the only antidote. Forgiveness is a healthy, wholesome, virtuous, liberating act. Forgiveness unleashes joy...God finds no pleasure in unending or excessive despair...Refusing to forgive is a sin. And it is a sin that is doubly destructive to Christian joy, because it not only destroys the original offender's joy, but it also diminishes the joy of the one who is refusing to forgive...it hinders worship and creates disunity in the fellowship. It is an extremely destructive kind of sin...unforgiveness hinders humility, mercy, joy, love, obedience, and fellowship...forgiveness is an essential part of undoing Satan's schemes...forgiveness is both a blessing and a means to further blessings. Those who refuse to forgive forfeit the multiple blessings of forgiveness. But those who forgive unleash multiple divine blessings, not only on those whom they forgive, but also on themselves. This is the very thing to which we are called." Who would CHOOSE unforgiveness??
If there are those who prefer to hang onto all of the negative feelings and destructive thoughts that stem from unforgiveness, then I hope they find a way to deal with them. But I can speak from experience, nobody wants to be around that bitter person,
and your mind and heart will never be at rest. Again, this is what worked for me. I'm a better person because of it, I can be the mother my daughters deserve by releasing the bitterness, I can hope for the future again. I can only wish the same for others.

I agree with this, Susie. Forcing a one-sided forgiveness does not resolve the problem. The key is to release bitterness and anger, which can be done without a one-sided forgiveness. I am not bitter and not angry and I have never forgiven the OW.

thanks lurioos2. I never dreamed my words could generate such division on forgiveness!! Your words just verified what I was trying to say...not all forgiveness comes with repentence from the offender. Many choose to forgive someone from their past who is long since deceased - can't hold out for their repentence then!!My desire for my husband's reconciliation with God is greater than for his reconciliation with me, while that would be nice. Ijust want ANYONE who has suffered the incredible pain of adultery to have that pain eased. Forgiveness helped to do that for me. Do I ever hope to see these other women out somewhere? No. But if for no other reason, I hope they repent so they don't do this to someone else!! As I said before, I couldn't get past the hurt and anger alone. Some choose a bottle of Jack Daniels, lots of chocolate, or spending sprees to dull the pain... I chose God, and forgiveness was just part of His instruction to me. Believe me, I am no saint and I have had to repent of my own sin, an on-going, crippling depression, not to mention those terrible thoughts I had about what I was going to do to the OW! And they were BAD! I ask God to give me the ABILITY to forgive as He does because I cannot do it on my own. I rejoice that you have been able to forgive your abuser. Forgiveness really does give us freedom for peace again, doesn't it?

Just wanted to mention one more thing. My husband and I did an individual couple's retreat shortly after his SA was disclosed. It was in the home of a couple, both counselors and the husband a former priest, and the husband had also had an affair. The wife told me at that time, which has now been almost 4 years ago, about her point of forgiveness for the OW and how she actually sat down with her to tell her she'd forgiven her. My, oh, my! I said "NEVER, NEVER, NEVER!!" So you see, I wasn't always receptive to, or at a place of, forgiveness! I never thought it would happen, didn't WANT it to happen, didn't think it should happen. But here I am telling others about it. And MelodyLane, if our discussion encourages others to seek the Scriptures to form their own opinion, then it's a good thing, so thanks as well for the debate.

baffled, please don't confuse my position with someone who is not receptive to forgiveness. I have ALWAYS been receptive to forgiveness. Since day 1. As a Christian that is my responsibility. As i stated before, biblical forgiveness is a two way endeavor, not a one sided feel good measure.

My reluctance to forgive is based solely on the scriptures and God's STANDARD of forgiveness, which is forgiveness with repentance. I don't agree that forcing forgiveness on someone against their will is scriptural or even effective, as I stated earlier. I think using the gift of forgiveness in a one sided way cheapens it and nullifies its intent.

I understand you don't agree with me, but wanted to clarify to you that this has nothing to do with personal growth. I am YEARS into recovery. One does not need to do a one-sided forgiveness to alleviate bitterness and resentment. I am perfectly at peace in my marriage.

I hope that clarifies my position and helps you understand that many who don't forgive are just as, if not more, recovered than those who do.

ok. I said I can agree to disagree, even theologically. It doesn't matter to me what works for you. I just wanted to present what's worked for me. enough said. it's time for football.

Thanks, baffled.. enjoy the game!

Agreed. I am reminded of two small children who get into a fight. The mother pulls them apart and says to the instigator "Now say you're sorry." We all know the kid probably isn't sorry. Yet he parrots the words and that is satisfactory to Mom. This is not true repentence - he was forced. Same thing applies here, at least as far as I'm concerned. I would be parroting words if I forgave the OW.

It gives me peace to know that she is with her H and son and has to face them every day, knowing that they know everything she did with my H. That is her burden. And I believe that God intends to use this experience as a way of molding her. Whether or not she accepts that is up to her. But I will not forgive an unrepentant person.

Roll Tide...just sayin'. If you're a Penn State fan...I forgive you. har har

Actually, baffled, I wonder if God sent you. I have had a sitch recently where I know I need to let go of something, even though there will never be an apology. Because it's eating ME. And I don't want to. I want to hear them feel bad and say they are sorry....but that won't happen. It's not an A, nothing nearly that big or bad. So thanks a lot for the conviction...ick.

Luriossi2, this is for you since you asked - I'm taking a break from football since my team is losing! I'm referencing Billy Graham since I believe him to be a well-respected, non-controversial man of the cloth. I don't believe in any of these answers does he say that forgiveness is always a two-way street. In fact, he tells us to "forgive them in our hearts - whether they accept our forgiveness or not." I hope this helps you. In response to the following questions regarding forgiveness he answers:

Q:I know we're supposed to forgive people who hurt us, but why bother? After all, it doesn't change what they've done to us, and it doesn't change them, either. I've been very hurt because of something my brother-in-law did to us, and there's no way I could ever forgive him.
A:In one way, you're right; forgiving someone who has hurt us doesn't change the past, and it may not even change the other person (although sometimes it does).

But listen, it does change you! Have you ever stopped to think about the damage you've done to yourself because of your failure to forgive? When someone hurts us, all kinds of emotions try to take control of us: anger, hurt, bitterness, resentment, depression, hopelessness�the list is almost endless. We also may want to lash out in violence and revenge, or we may even plot how we can get even with them through malicious gossip or in some other way.

But every one of those hurts you far more than it does the other person. Anger or bitterness, for example, are like an acid, eating away at our minds and hearts�and even affecting us physically. They also hurt our relationships with others; who likes to be around someone who's constantly angry or bitter? The Bible warns us against becoming like someone who "dies in bitterness of soul, never having enjoyed anything good" (Job 21:25).

The first step in forgiving someone is to turn to Christ for the forgiveness we need. Then ask God to help you forgive this person just as He has forgiven you�freely and fully. An unforgiving spirit cannot live in the light of God's love.

Q:When we forgive someone for something they've done to us, is that supposed to erase all the problems between us? I've truly forgiven a friend for the deep hurt she caused me, but I can't pretend it never happened or resume our friendship the way it once was. Am I wrong to feel this way?
A:We need to forgive those who have hurt us; if we don't, our anger or hurt will become like a festering wound in our minds and souls. This is one reason why the Bible urges us to "Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you" (Ephesians 4:32).

But sometimes our forgiveness is misunderstood by the other person, or even rejected. After all, when we forgive someone, we are forgiving them for something they did wrong - and they may not be willing to admit this. Or they may think we're trying to manipulate them or make them treat us better. This is why we need to focus on our own attitudes and forgive them in our hearts - whether they accept our forgiveness or not.

However, even if they do accept our forgiveness, it's hard to have the same relationship we once had. Do you remember Jacob and his brother Esau in the Old Testament? Jacob wronged Esau, and eventually sought his forgiveness. Esau graciously accepted it - but their relationship wasn't close and they went their separate ways (see Genesis 33:16-17).

One of the Bible's greatest truths, however, is that this isn't true with God! When we come to Christ, our sins are forgiven and our relationship is restored - completely and fully. Have you committed yours to Him?

Q:I know you've often said that we need to forgive those who hurt us, but what if it doesn't do any good and they just keep hurting you? No matter what I say, this person keeps doing the same hurtful things to me. How much should I put up with?
A:Forgiving someone who has hurt us isn't easy -- and it's even harder when they ignore our efforts to bridge the gap between us by forgiving them. But that doesn't mean we should give up and quit trying -- not at all.

One of Jesus' disciples must have had the same problem you do, because on one occasion he asked Jesus how often he was expected to forgive someone who had hurt him. Perhaps he thought he'd impress Jesus by showing how merciful he was, because he suggested that instead of forgiving them only once or twice, wouldn't it be good to forgive them up to seven times? But Jesus replied, "I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times" -- in other words, without limit (Matthew 18:22).

After all, this is how God offers to forgive us -- freely and without limit, in spite of the way we ignore Him and disobey Him. He does this because He loves us, and we know this because Jesus Christ was willing to give His life for us. The Bible says, "Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you" (Ephesians 4:32).

Open your heart and life to Jesus Christ, and then ask Him to help you forgive others just as He has forgiven you -- freely and without limit. Then pray for this person, and urge them to turn to Christ for the forgiveness and new life they need.

Q:Last week, my husband admitted that he's been unfaithful, and it's really crushed me. He says it's over and he wants to rebuild our marriage, but how can I possibly forgive him? Should I even try?
A:Few sins are as destructive and cruel as the one your husband has committed, and my heart goes out to you. It's no wonder the Bible says that adultery is "bitter as gall. ... Whoever does so destroys himself" (Proverbs 5:4; 6:32).

It may be hard for you to forgive your husband for what he did - but what if you don't? Instead of forgiving him, what if you allow your hurt and bitterness to keep festering like an angry sore in your mind and heart? You know the answer: Your pain will only grow more intense, and your relationship will be poisoned. To put it another way, your home will become a battleground instead of a place of happiness and peace. Do you honestly want this? I doubt it, in spite of your present feelings.

The fact that your husband admitted his unfaithfulness suggests to me that he is genuinely sorry for what he's done; otherwise he probably would have just kept quiet. Let his regret be the first step in healing your relationship.

Then ask God to help you forgive him for what he's done. The key is to realize how God forgave us - not because we deserved it, but because in His grace He loved us and gave His Son for us. The Bible says, "Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you" (Ephesians 4:32). Then ask God to help you rebuild your relationship by putting Christ at the center of your marriage - and your lives.

Ugh. Maybe you are 4 years into it because are trying to forgive what is not in your power to forgive.

I am a Christian. I believe the stuff you quoted above to be a bunch of hooey. God doesn't forgive us unless we repent of our sins. He certainly does not require more of us than that.

I should have read this first and then said ditto.

Well said Mel

l2l,

I probably am in a completely different world from most other people on the boards. Here is my take on forgiveness.

I do not require nor expect the guilty party to express remorse.
I do not require nor expect the guilty party to offer repayment.
I do not require nor expect the guilty party to show regret.
I do not require nor expect the guilty party to admit their wrongdoing.
I do not require nor expect the guilty party to apologize, either publicly or privately.
I do not require nor expect the guilty party to ask for forgiveness.
I never expect the guilty party to show any sense of shame.


Would these things be great if they did? You bet. If and when it happens, I am most often shocked, and usually find myself admiring that person to some degree - with the caveat that many times the admission of guilt can be coerced, or have some sort of reward for the guilty.

So I do not expect or demand or require any of it. I cannot. Not for the sake of forgiveness, because if I do any of this the apology or the shame or the remorse, whatever it is, may come with some sort of coercion or reward at the other end. (Like the example of the husband making the OW send the apology letter. What value is it then? None.)

My sense of forgiveness is that I have to understand the innermost self of the perpetrator. What leads a person to betray his innermost voice of goodness? What leads a person to listen to his voice in his head that says, "This is wrong, do not do this," and then go against that very voice - his own - to sin?

There is only one answer to that question.

It is in this understanding that I find myself able to forgive. I understand that people driven by this voice are carried by another voice, a voice so low and deep that they are broken. Someone able to sin against me, carry no guilt, no shame, no remorse, no thought

this person is broken

at a level so broken that it carries them deeply down.


I visualize them with a brokenness before the universe that I understand I am stronger than they are. I have so much more than they have, I am so much more than they are (at least in this moment), that in their brokenness I must only view them as pitiful creatures. Bent before the universe, lost, crushed in spirit, crushed in morality, crushed within their very selves.


How then can I not understand them as just weak, pitiful, broken beings?
How can I not see how sick they are?


And how meaningless my life really is in theirs, when they are truly battling a much stronger demon............


So taking this view

I have but one choice, being the stronger one, the one who has inner peace, a walk of faith, a voice within me that speaks truth and light,

I have but one choice but to look at this poor creature and say,


"I forgive you, and leave you to God to find you. I shall pray that you find Him so that redemption shall be yours."

Because certainly his sin against me is the least of his problems.

And then, HE is the least of MINE. I have unchained this person from me - because I have a complete understanding of how this person does not belong to ME anymore. I no longer carry the burden of his sins with me, no longer carry his anchor to me.

I have released him to the One who can do something about him.


Schoolbus

ITA. I will fully forgive someone who fully repents and asks for forgiveness and not before.

Well put, "Schoolbus." Thanks for your perspective.
Unfortunately, it appears that...

This sure seems to be a forum full of condemning, judgmental Christians � and on a topic such as forgiveness, an attribute of the Christian walk! Please! It�s no wonder some are turned off by Christianity and it�s a wonder that anyone gets any real help from this site when contributors are so quick to prove another wrong, Melodylane, or �hooey, hooey� their thoughts, SmilingWoman. Maybe it�s time for a re-introduction to the Gospel for this group. Some of you can say you�re �recovered� and no longer carry any bitterness in your marriage WITHOUT forgiving the OW, but you�re fooling yourself if you think you aren�t still holding onto bitterness � you just exude it to OTHERS! Which proves MY point on the need to forgive.
�Learning2love,� I�m sorry that this thread took on a life of it�s own and I pray that you and �lurioosi2� and �teaser8,� find the peace you are searching for. As for myself, although new to MB, I will be sesarching for a more accepting, compassionate group of strangers with which to interact. It seems that there are a select few here who feel the need to respond to most every post and only want their views heard � talk about �one-sided!� Exchanging ideas, great. But bullying is not acceptable in a marriage or in any other platform... a Love Buster, for sure! Just because one knows the Scriptures, doesn�t make him/her an authority, much less mean that he/she even walks the walk...just look at Jim Bakker and Ted Haggard! And with this, my FINAL post,thanks, but no thanks to MB." Good luck to all of you.

baffled, folks who disagreed with you did so respectfully and politely; you owe them the same. There is no reason to condemn and attack others for disagreeing with you. That is most certainly not an attribute of the "Christian walk."

The Bible says in 2 Timothy 2:15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth.

I am baffled, baffled, why it is ok for you to "prove another wrong" but not ok for others to challenge your understanding of the Bible? There are many Christians who disagree with your interpretation of God's command for forgiveness. There is nothing wrong with a respectful discussion of those differences. But there is something wrong with being disrespectful to those who disagree with you.

Somehow, I KNEW you'd be sitting right by your computer ready to pounce on my post, MelodyLane! I'm laid up from a hip-replacement - what's your excuse? I also knew that you'd find no fault in your responses or attitude and would try to turn this all around on me. That's ok, because I know that even though my opinions may not be in alignment with another's, my heart is in alignment with God. And now,this REALLY will be my last post. I don't have to have the last word.

Stand up and be counted today...the world is looking for Christians who are real! "This is a war and there is no neutral ground. If you're not on my side, you're the enemy; if you're not helping, you're making things worse." (Lk 11:23 Msg) Happy Sunday...it's time to shine

baffled, I hope you can forgive those who disagreed with you and get over your bitterness. God Bless...

STOP FEELING ANGRY OR RESENTFUL :
check

CANCEL A DEBT :
check

My forgiveness of OW was never forced.
My forgiveness of OW was slow and came at a pace very comfortable for me.
I have to admit, I do not miss those angry & resentful feelings.
OW rarely occupies any space inside my mind.

I always find it interesting that we often speak of waiting for the offender to ASK for forgiveness before we give ourselves permission to jettison anger & resentment.
In this case, a person (OW) with whom we are supposed to have NO CONTACT.

I live with a chronic disease that is much worse when I feel the stress of negative emotions. Especially chronic long term negative emotions.
I live better (healthier) without that stressful angry resentment.

I never want to speak to OW again, as long as I live.
How the heck am I supposed to allow her to express her remorse? NC, read my lips, means NO contact what-so-ever.

Additionally, we sometimes need to forgive the deceased.
With whom we certainly maintain NO CONTACT !

TIME

(and 3 months is not nearly enough time)

Ooopsie.
You forgot and posted after your "FINAL" post.

That's OK.
Goodbye and good luck to YOU!

Thank you everyone for responding. I realize its just going to take some time but it is something I will eventually do with Gods grace. The ow was somewhat of a family friend but I intend to never have contact with her. I just see her often because I live in the same small town and she works on my street as a home health care aide but I think the man she was taking care of died so I haven't seen her car there lately. I'm just sick of being consumed of her. I'm tired of walking around bitter and " wishing she would do or say something els"... But also I know that God loves her just as much as He loves my husband and although I will never have contact with her, I want to eventually release her to God and let Him carry this burden.

We're not here to exchange ideas. We are here to learn marriage builders.

If the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a ditch.

You are posting a lot of words but not listening to or trying to understand the people who disagree with you.

I specifically said we advocated "letting go" even though we don't advocate forgiving.

A person who lets go is not bitter or resentful and doesn't plot revenge like you mentioned in one of your other posts.

NOBODY is saying people should stay bitter. It's not very nice to misrepresent the people who are disagreeing with you.

James says in the Bible we should be slow to speak and quick to listen. You aren't listening to the people who disagree with you, or else you would understand that nobody is saying people should hold on to bitterness and you wouldn't be saying things like this. It hurts people to have you ignore their words and then misrepresent what they say. Why not instead be swift to listen and try to understand what people are saying when they disagree with you? Sometimes they might help you correct your own misunderstandings, if you have any.

Why are you condemning ML for graciously spending her time having an exchange of ideas with you? Is spending a lot of time on the computer something she should be ashamed of? Is it a bad thing people have to have an excuse for?

Where is Christ in this conversation? Whether you are a veteran or not, there is never a reason for attack on marriage builders. Gods word is Gods word and I pray He would give us all a better understanding. I am not sure why all of the arguing. I am a newcomer. I read a lot of these post for advice and help and it seems like a few of us are always trying to set the record straight instead of really helping the person who is need of it. People come here because they hurt and broken, not because they want to get ripped to shreds" nicely". I am no saint and I don't know anyone who is, but I'm thinking there's nothing wrong with checking ourselves from time to time.

Let's keep this respectful. It is ok to disagree, it is not ok to attack and denigrate others!

Jesus's standard for forgiveness was exhibited by Christ on the cross where he forgave everyone in the midst of them crucifying Him.

No repentance.

Only forgiveness for all who would receive it.

Freely offered without condition.

Great posts Pep.

I haven't "forgiven" the OW but I also do not feel any sort of intense anger or resentment towards her...my feelings are becoming ambivalent.

My unforgiveness, at this point, is not harming me and it isn't eating me up inside. It just sort of...is. I actually feel sorry for her sometimes.


Pep, what if you found out that she truly wanted to express her remorse and ask your forgiveness? Would you then allow her to C you?

It always baffles (no pun intended) me when a newbie comes here and starts raising heck right off the bat.

What is the purpose in that?

No, I would not.
Edit to add .... it will be fifteen YEARS this December.
If remorse/apology had been offered earlier, say within the first year, I might have considered giving a listen to whatever apology she had to make.
Time's expired.

NEXT ...

Gotcha and I agree ~ statute of limitations and all of that. 15 years is a very long time.

"Time's expired.

NEXT ..."

I don't know why this made me laugh. It reminded me of what DH (with his Italian blood) sometimes says:

"We do not speak of her. She is dead to us."

Basta!

*********EDIT************