Hello, I have been lurking for a while and doing lots of reading. My husband and I have struggled with communication our whole married lives. We are finally getting close to empty nest and retirement and really want to learn how to be fully happy together. We have read His Needs, Her Needs, and some of Lovebusters. Hubby has printed off several questionaires, but we have yet to complete them. We are really struggling lately and I am feeling so stressed, like my head is going to pop off. My husband is stressed as well. One thing I (we) have always had a problem with...when I share with him how I feel, he replies that he feels the same way. While I understand that of course he has feelings too, I can never bring up my feelings and talk about them and feel heard because he always says, well, there are two of us, we can't just talk about you. does anyone have any ideas how I can feel heard by my spouse without him feeling it's "all about me"?

Hi Barigirl, welcome to Marriage Builders! Can you give an example of a conversation where you talked about your 'feelings?" I am not sure I follow. Here is a guideline of what constitutes a great conversation: here

Hi! Wow, thanks for the quick response?

Example conversation....well, today after work, after several days of quarrelling, I told hubby I felt sad and hopeless and so very stressed. And that I feel that he doesn't value me. His response... I too, feel sad and that you don't value me.
This is a decades long problem for us in that I don't feel heard when he just repeats back yo me what I say to him.

Another example..I have always felt judged by me spouse as not be a "good enough" person. When I share this feeling with him, he says....well, I have always felt you judge me too. Grr.. brick wall, impasse...
Thanks for the link, I read it through and will again. I was hoping it would address this situation.

What you really seem to be struggling with is complaining, not "communicating" per se.

You make a complaint (and not very well, by the way. You should specify what actions of his bother you. Telling him you "feel judged" or that you "do not feel valued" is actually a DJ; telling him what he thinks. Talk instead about a specific thing that he did, or does, or that you'd like him to do.)...

...you make a complaint, and he nullifies that complaint by batting it right back to you. He is not saying "I feel the same way. What can we do to stop feeling this way?" He is saying "don't point fingers at me! You have three fingers pointing back at you! Take out the beam in your own eye before you complain about the speck in mine. Do you ever think how unhappy you make me, and yet I don't say anything about it. It always all about you!" And of course, that makes you upset. He is not showing care and concern for you. He is actually showing that he does not care about your complaints.

Why were you arguing, and why was it for days?

Why are you both stressed, given that you're close to empty nest and retirement?

We seem to argue mostly about independent behavior I believe. I will give some background....we both work at the same place in different departments. It is a very large organization. We carpool to work. We have only one vehicle, a newer one, which is a first for us. I was a stay at home mom for many years, then worked part time and now full time. We lived extremely frugally and could not afford any luxuries until recent years. I have taken responsibility for our finances and saving for retirement. We are finally financially secure and now travel a bit and have plans for lots more. All my income goes into joint funds but he redirects some of his income for himself. He has a lot of interests that he spends on.
You may be able to guess that one thing we argue about is that he wants to direct more money to his interests while I want us to spend any extra money on interests we share.
We begin conversations with the best of intentions but they generally go bad quickly. I have always felt very judged by him. In terms of money, he implies I am cheap, selfish, etc. He insists that I answer the question...what will happen to our marriage if our circumstances change and we have no money?
Right now, he has been offered overtime at work. We discussed whether he would work. I know that he wants to keep the cash from this for his own interests. I said that if we were to forfeit the time together, I would like the money to go toward financial goals we share. He said he knew that would be my answer. He agreed to leave it at that for now. And then he was cold and had a martyred air.
We have been talking about MB principles for a while and we read over the 4 rules to a successful marriage just the day before. I stressed to him that I really needed to see him demonstrate the principles of care and protection.
After we had our cold little chat re the overtime, I spent the afternoon at my desk feeling despair and like what is the point? So after work, I told him I was feeling at the end of my rope and very stressed out. The response to that was where I started this thread.

This is so awful that I do not know where to start. The separation of your money into "joint" and "his" should not be the way a marriage operates. Neither should there be "his interests" that are kept in his domain and that are off limits for your influence.

This is so far from the kind of marriage that Marriage Builders envisages. An MB marriage is integrated, which mean that the two of you become one in your decision making, leisure time, money....everything. You can have your own interests if your marriage is happy, you are in love, you spend at least 15 hour per week out of the house on dates, and you both agree to each one of the interests that the other wants to pursue.

Far too many people use their separate interests as a way of getting away from a bad marriage. That is the kind of solution that most of us here used before we found MB. We did not learn to resolve the conflicts and differences in our marriages, and we did not learn to create marriages where we were our spouses' best friends, spending most of our time together. Instead, our time together was miserable and ridden with conflict, and we also had small kids for some of that time. The solution was to lead independent lifestyles, going out alone with friends, putting time with friends far above time with our spouses, using our spouses to babysit the small children while we did something else, without our spouse...

...The result for many of us was that one spouse had an affair, and for others, the misery was so great that depression, gambling, and all manner of things ensued.

If you have read any of Dr Harley's material, and if you have listened to the radio show, you will know that this must all stop. The problems as I see it is that you husband is openly antagonistic to you, and pretty much refuses to recognise that you are in despair. if he doesn't wake up and identify his marriage as the most important thing in his life, and start doing whatever Dr Harley recommends to put it right, you will continue not to have a marriage - and what will you do about that?

Thank you, Sugarcane, for your response and insights. I agree with all you have said. And we have dealt with all this throughout our 37 year marriage, 7 children and 23 foster children. I should clarify that some of his interests are ones he wants me to share. Charitable giving and setting up education accounts for our 5 (more to come) grandchildren. We have always donated above my comfort level. He is very Catholic and devout. I converted early in our marriage and gave it my best for 20 years but never felt I was a "good enough" Catholic for him/ his family. So I quit trying to be a round peg in a square hole. That was 15 years ago. He feels lonely without me at church and says it is hard for him when he sees other couples there. He has never asked mr outright to return or asked what it would take for me to attend with him. Not that I know the answer to these questions. He never misses a Sunday even when we go away for the weekend or travel. First thing he does is find church times. I don't get a say of course because his religion demands his attendance. I mention this because of him saying we should give more to is church or sponsor a child. His other interests are things he does with other men, golf, pool, cards, etc.
I tell him that now should be our time, after having worked our guts out and sacrificed for all these years. He replies that I should be grateful for where we are at and that if we can't be happy where we're at we won't be happy with where we are going. He says we are responsible for our own happiness, that we can choose to be happy.
I wish he would hear my despair. When I tell him my love bank is very low and that I think about separating, he says his love bank is low too and that he thinks I am just looking for excuses to leave. We do have a lot to be grateful for and our marriage could be so awesome.

The more you write, the worse the picture.

Your husband needs to learn that to serve God, he must serve his marriage. Attendance at church is not a Christian requirement, at all times under all circumstances. When he took his vows to you before God, he vowed to become one with you, and to honour and cherish you (or similar words). He is not fulfilling his duty to God by putting church activities above making you happy, and using POJA in everything he does.

"He says we are responsible for our own happiness, that we can choose to be happy."

He is telling you that he is giving you all he is prepared to give, and that you'll just have to accept that. Well, this is not good enough for marriage.

Would your husband agree to speak directly to Dr Harley? Dr Harley is a conservative Christian, and every single aspect of the MB programme is Biblically justified (and even commanded).

Dr Harley has a daily radio show, and he often speaks directly to pre-booked callers. I think Dr Harley would jump at the chance to explore your husband's understanding of his duties as a Christian and as a husband, and I think he would give him much to reconsider. Could you ask your husband about his willingness to talk to Dr Harley?

If he won't talk on the radio, Dr Harley will communicate with him by email. Obviously, a live conversation is preferable to email, which is why I suggest the radio show but many people have benefited from email correspondence with Dr Harley. Are you willing to ask your H about this?

Also, please get Dr and Joyce Harley's book Draw Close. It shows the Christian basis of everything in the MB approach.

...and ask you husband to read it! He is the one that it would help the most. He is going about being a Christian husband in entirely the wrong way.

Hi, Barigirl,

It's Dr. Harley's position that married people need to make everything in their life subject to the policy of joint agreement: never do anything without an enthusiastic agreement between you and your spouse. If you want to have a happy marriage, then whatever you do, you must avoid doing things that your spouse feels reluctant about.

That even includes going to church. I was raised to believe that a good Christian needed to be in church "every time the doors were open." After I got married my wife became more and more reluctant about attending church twice on Sundays, to the point that I could see how upset she was every time I left on Sunday nights. After I tried applying the policy of joint agreement to this area I discovered my wife became a lot more enthusiastic about church and our life together - but we never go to church unless we are both enthusiastic.

It is Dr. Harley's experience that when a couple makes any exception to the policy of joint agreement, that area of life eventually leads to the failure of the marriage.

Will your husband contact Dr. Harley on his radio show? That would be the best way for Dr. Harley to present his case to him and hopefully persuade him that God wants him to have a lifestyle where everything he does is subject to his wife's feelings. Would your husband post here?

I can certainly ask my husband to speak with Dr. Harley. We are in Canada, does this make a difference? Maybe email would be better for this.

My husband enjoys debating things like this but I should point out that Catholic is a different ball of wax to him. "The one true church instituted by God" he believes. I shouldn't say "believes" because he says it isn't what he believes or doesn't believe, its about "Truth". Husbands words.

So Christian marriage vs Catholic marriage for him maybe.

I don't want to paint him as all bad by any means. He is a thoughtful and generous spouse in many ways, a great father, helpful in all ways around the house with chores etc. he is a good neighbor and loves to help people out. He likes to spend time with me. Lots of good qualities. I want more, of course, to be an MB couple, in all ways.

Thank you, Markos, for helping me.

I will ask my husband about posting here although the idea makes me nervous. My initial purpose with posting on this site was not to get him away from his Church although it has been a source of contention over the years. My purpose is to have a marriage where I feel like an equal partner where we make decisions that benefit both of us and take both our points of view into account. He doesn't think I am reasonable and rational on some subjects. I just want to be permitted to have my view and POJA when he has an opposing view.
As far as church goes, I wouldn't ask him to give up something that literally defines who he is. Even though I admit to feeling he is not reasonable or rational on the subject (big DJ, I know).

But, for all that, he is making you miserable. All of the good qualities that you list do not compensate for the effect of his neglect on you.

He is asking you to change your feelings, and you have been doing your best to do that. The result is that you are very unhappy.

Trying to change your feelings, and trying to be happy in an unhappy marriage, won't work. Changing both of your behaviours, in the right way, WILL work.

This is is so wrong. "Church" does not literally, or even figuratively, define who he is.

I should have said..his faith. His faith and his church are intertwined to him. Not sure I am articulating his thoughts/ beliefs correctly.

Yes - but my point is that "faith" is not "church". He is misapplying Christianity, and he needs a good talking to, from Dr Harley. Have you composed your letter yet?

Sorry...have I composed my letter yet? What does this mean?

Sorry, I'm posting to a few people, telling them all to contact Dr Harley. I confused you with one of them.

I meant this:

I should have suggested that you ask your husband about talking to Dr Harley, but that you also talk to him yourself, right now. You don't need your husband's agreement to do this; this is a health and safety POJA exemption.

Write Dr Harley an email today, to the radio show address, telling him what you have told us. You can do this quickly by cutting and pasting the statements from your various posts that describe the problem (or of course, you can compose an mail from scratch). Ask what you should be doing now, even if your husband won't agree to go on the show, or to write to Dr Harley himself.

Thank you, Sugarcane. I have emailed the radio show as suggested. My husband will be home from work in a couple of hours (I took a mental health day). I told him that I have been posting to the forum and he wants to look at this when he gets home. Is this recommended?

Oh yes. Send him here. We can tell him a thing or two hundred that he needs to hear. We will also show him what to read.

What did your email say? Would you mind posting it here?

I copied and pasted excerpts from this thread. Do you still want me to post it? It is basically a rehash.

I received a reply to my email to Dr. Harley. His wife, Joyce, responded and asked me to call any morning to discuss speaking on the radio show.

That's wonderful! Will you go on the show?

I am not sure about that yet.

My husband has just begun to read my thread. When he gets through that, what happens next? Should he respond on my thread or begin a new one with his thoughts?

He should make his own account and start his own thread.

Thanks for the timely reply. He has just finished creating his account.

When will you be on the show? Will your Husband be on the show with you or just you?

I don't know the answers yet. Joyce Harley emailed this afternoon and asked me to call her any morning to discuss details. I will call her in the morning on Saturday. If they want my husband too, he will participate.

Still here, doing lots of reading. I wonder could I have some feedback regarding my first attempt at POJA?

Today (at work), he sent me an email that his brother is asking if he wants to travel this evening to a city an hour away to attend a wake of a man who grew up in their home community, asking me how I felt about him going with his brother.

I replied that I would feel disappointed as I hoped we could continue working on MB stuff.

He then copied me in on a reply he sent to his brother saying he has a prior commitment and to offer his condolences.

I am thinking to myself, "This is still him making decisions without POJA. I answered his question, how would I feel, he takes it that he can't go. If things follow the general pattern, he will feel love buster of selfish demand, "she wouldn't let me go" and then be silently or not so silently pissed." I sent him another email saying this�

I could be wrong and we can ask on the Forum, but if we were to POJA, what would this look like?

Identify the issue; is it

1. You would like to attend the wake?
1. You would like to attend the wake with your brother?

Once identified, we get each others preference.

If preferences don�t line up, we POJA

We come up with ideas where my hopes to continue with MB talk and yours of attending the wake are both considered.

How do you feel about my thoughts on POJA?

His reply..

Sorry, I have 6 letters I am supposed to get out today. We can talk about this this evening

Later, when we got home from work, we talked some more and we worked out what he wanted and what I wanted and ended up agreeing to go to the city and have a nice dinner out, enjoying friendly conversation during the ride and dinner and then attend the wake together. And that is what we did. And we had a nice evening.

While I was making lunch today, I had the following thoughts concerning POJA...

We rent a condo in Florida every winter for 2-3 weeks (a few years now). We buy some groceries and eat most of our meals at the condo. Something I like about this is that I have to be creative with meals. As we are only there for a short time, I don't have or buy the usual spices, condiments, etc. I try very hard to portion our groceries so we have minimal waste at the end of our vacation. This results in me/us inventing new recipes. Like salad with unusual combinations of ingredients or marinating sauce, sandwich fillers, etc.

Today, at home, I wanted to make sandwiches for lunch. Because we are low on groceries, I didn't have the usual items, veggies and such, to work with.

So, we have a problem, what is it? How to make a turkey sandwich without the usual ingredients. We didn't have bread or tomatoes or lettuce, etc. The "issue" in this scenario is not that I needed to make a turkey sandwich so much as it is...how to I make a decent lunch to satisfy my need to eat, with the ingredients I have to work with?

In this example, complaining that I don't have the right ingredients, or getting angry that I don't have the right ingredients, or telling my spouse how negligent he/she was in not having the ingredients in the house, will not satisfy my need to eat.

So, we want to eat. We have u, v, w, x, y and z ingredients. We make a sandwich/lunch using some or all of the ingredients we have.

A conflict with the spouse should be the same...his "ingredients" (thoughts, wants, needs) are different from her "ingredients" (thoughts, wants, needs); one spouse wants to do something that makes the other unhappy, do we complain that the spouse has different ingredients than me or do we work with what we've got to make a new recipe/plan/course of action and get what we both need?

It kinda makes sense in my head, not sure it translates in written form though

what you describe sounds alot like COMPROMISE, which is taking a little bad and a little good and mixing it together. The POJA subscribes a THIRD WAY, such as this:

Yes, I can see that it may skirt the edge of compromise. May I explain a bit further and get your thoughts?

I wanted us to spend time together. He wasn't against spending time together, he wanted to do that too. I wasn't against going to the wake, I hadn't been asked (in fairness to him, I avoid wakes when I can). He wouldn't have minded spending the time with his brother, but it didn't bother him not to. In fact, he said he wouldn't have gone alone even though he felt he should go.

We were both enthusiastic about our decision to do both dinner and the wake together. We felt like we both won.

Thank you so much for helping me to further understand the concept.

I think you did a great job negotiating a solution in the case of the wake. But I want to point out a couple of things. First off, your husband did the right thing in declining the invitation when you said you were not enthusiastic about him going. That is what I would expect him to do. What you did here was disrespectful:


First off it is not a selfish demand for you to not agree to his going. A selfish demand is to demand he DO something, not that he don't do something that makes you unhappy. He should not do anything without your enthusiastic agreement. It is a disrespectful judgement to assume he will be "pissed off " or react in a certain way "she won't let me go." He did the right thing in this situation.

If you did not mean for him to decline the invitation and wanted to negotiate, you could have told him that then. You didn't tell him this and then chastised him for declining the invitation. That wasn't fair to him.

In the end, you did a super job negotiating a desirable solution, but I would avoid assuming his reaction and prejudging him. I want to emphasize this, though: it is not a "selfish demand" to ask your husband to NOT do something that makes you unhappy. There is nothing wrong with saying no, I don't want you to go.

Thank you. I see what you are saying about the disrespectful part in the highlighted box. To clarify though, those were my thoughts, I didn't say/ write it to him. The last sentence in the box..."I sent him an email saying this..." referred to the POJA stuff below that line. The part preceding the "I sent him an email.." were my thoughts.

However, I can see where I should clear my mind of disrespectful thoughts.

How do you get that box around certain portions of text?

Use the quote function.

Do you see these buttons on the bottom of each post?

Reply Quote Quick Reply Quick Quote Notify Email Post

Click "quote", and the post appears as a quote. Delete any part of the original post that you do not want to quote, but leave the brackets at the beginning and end of the post fully intact.

Click "preview post" to check that your post looks the way you want it to, before hitting "submit".

Did you call Joyce?

Here's a show on POJA.
Radio Clip on POJA
Segment #2

I did. She asked me to call back on Monday.

You say this earlier. Could you elaborate on it, please?

I don't want you to DJ your husband, as I did, it seems, so could you just give examples of when he has actually said that? If that's just your impression, then it's best not repeated.

I could give lots of examples where he has said I am not reasonable and/or rational, but I think that these instances boil down to the fact that both of us need to learn that neither of our feelings are to be judged, they just are. And then move to POJA.

Hubby and I talked tonight after his long post. We both realize that we have a lot to learn and practice with the MB principles. Hubby is struggling with how it all works on the forum. I explained as best I could, based on my limited knowledge, that the responders to our posts are not so much concerned with our long explanations as they are with trying to show where we are missing out on opportunities to apply MB principles, and where we are falling short. He and I are both quite willing to learn.

I would like to ask that the church/faith issue be dropped. While this has been a contentious issue over our married life, we have learned, for the most part, to agree to disagree on this. While neither of us is fully content in this area, we are not willing to upset the apple cart on this issue.

We do want to learn how to deepen our romantic love through the MB principles. I read somewhere in all the material that once we reach that pinnacle of true compatibility, we will be enthusiastic about everything to do with our spouse. We do want to get to that place.

Thank you, I will listen to this.

Will try this, thank you for this.

You reach compatibility by learning to negotiate decisions about which you are both enthusiastic. You will not ever become enthusiastic about everything to do with your spouse. My H and I have conflicts every day and every day we negotiate solutions. We are not enthusiastic until we have negotiated mutually enthusiastic decisions.

I agree you should table the religious issue until you become more skilled at negotiation. But that should be temporary.

Thank you for the radio clip. Segment #2 really speaks to me. This is what I need for my marriage to improve.

You're welcome. And I think you'll find when you and your husband start using POJA things will improve.

Yes, BrainHurts, I totally agree with you that POJA is the answer for us.

We did listen to the radio clip together. And spent the afternoon working on the activities sheet and a bit on the UA time sheet. And chatting.

My mind is in a muddle. Tonight, we completed the love busters questionaires. My hubby's indicared that #1 lovebuster from me is dishonesty. He wrote that I don't share my deep thoughts re where I stand on faith issues and that I don't tell him what the REAL issue is ( when we argue). He is right that I hold things back and the reason I do is that I fear DJ's.

How do I be more honest with him when I am afraid?

It sounds like what your husband is complaining about is lack of Openness and Honesty rather than Dishonesty. There is a difference, although it seems subtle. Openness and Honesty is revealing what you know about yourself. Dishonesty is out right lying or trying to deceive.

He must eliminate his DJs if he wants you to be Open and Honest with him. He discourages Openness and Honesty every time he DJs you. You cannot open up to him until he protects you from himself.

What did you say to him about his lovebusters on the worksheet?

I said that he makes plans/decisions without considering my feelings/interests. If his plans differ from mine he will either go ahead anyway or DJ me by saying or implying I am irrational, unreasonable, selfish, cheap, etc. I also said he uses body language and deep sighs as well as words to DJ me.

As to O&H versus dishonesty, you are correct, that is what he meant as opposed to outright lying.

Is he willing to come up with a plan to eliminate Disrespectful Judgements?

Lack of Openness and Honesty is not a lovebuster. Openness and Honesty is an emotional need that he may like for you to meet, but he first needs to make it safe for you to do so by eliminating all demands, disrespect, and angry outbursts.

Yes, I think so. But I have questions... Love buster for him - "my attitude about money is not very flexible". How do I work on eliminating this love buster ( under selfish demands on his worksheet) when I feel that he continually asks me to agree to things I don't want to do or contribute to re money?

Love buster for him..he is scared to bring up topics of importance to him because he thinks/knows I disagree on, I am very hard to talk to on issues I don't agree with or like. This is true for both of us..but mainly (I think) because we haven't learned how to negotiate. We have always used compromise or captulation which hasn't worked to resolve conflicts for good because neither of us are happy with outcome.

Lack of Openness and Honesty is not a lovebuster. Openness and Honesty is an emotional need that he may like for you to meet, but he first needs to make it safe for you to do so by eliminating all demands, disrespect, and angry outbursts. [/quote]

Yes. Absolutely.

Is he demanding that money be spent a certain way ?- That's a selfish demand. Asking him not to spend money on certain things is not a selfish demand.

A selfish demand is demanding your spouse do something they dont wish to do- likes spend money on certain activities or go place they don't like.

Which of the materials have you each read so far?

We have read His Needs, Her Needs, some of Love Busters, quite a few articles on this website. He has listened to a few of the radio shows as have I.

I learned a lot from the radio archives. I would search for a topic like "Selfish DemandS" then listen to several segments to discover how to apply to program properly. I highly recommend it.

Thank you, we will talk about signing up.

Is there current information about Marriage Builder weekends? Are there still being offered?

They changed the program somewhat so you don't have to fly in for the kickoff weekend. Instead you would do it online through a series of videos. The various courses are here. #3 is the equivalence of the weekend program.

Thanks. It would be nice to do some face to face counseling.

And also, Fall in Love, Stay in Love

I have been searching, but cannot find, guidance to come up with a plan to eliminate Disrespectful Judgements.

Is there material on this?

Disrespectful Judgements

Selfish Demands

I am missing something.we have read those links and see where we can improve. So then, does "make a plan to eliminate love busters" mean to just try to stop doing them? Or is there a process of some sort?

They don't do face to face counseling, but you would be assigned a Marriage Builders coach after you complete your videos who would guide you and your husband through the program. She gives you weekly lessons and then you go online afterwards to take a test. You would have access to Dr Harley on the private forum and your progress would be supervised by him.

Yes, you would just stop doing it. Recognizing your behavior as a lovebuster is 90% of the battle.

I appreciate this information. Thank you for being so helpful.

You are very welcome. It is a fantastic program! My H and I went through it in 2007 and are so glad we did.

My husband and I are both excited about the program. He has always been open to conseling and asking for help. I am the reserved, private one. This program speaks to both of us.

The Five Steps to Romantic Love Workbook has the forms you can use to help with this.

5 Steps to Romantic Love

We are doing quite well with the MB steps.. planning UA time..brainstorming activities..avoiding LB's. Hubby is out tonight, he belongs to a pool league. He missed the last two Mondays to spend with me. On our planning worksheet he wants time Wednesday evenings to visit his parents (this has been his habit for a couple of years). Today he emailed me that a buddy called wanting him to go play cards on Wednesday, and says he will answer the buddy tomorrow. We haven't had a chance to discuss this.

I don't know how to answer him when he asks "how would you feel about me going to play cards?"

While I don't really have a problem with him playing cards, all of his activities away from me seem to trigger me somehow. I am struggling to work through my own thoughts here.

Should I have a problem with his outside activities if we can squeeze in our UA time in the week?

UA should not be squeezed in around other activities. It is first priority.

Dr. Harley allows for recreational activities apart as long as:

1. You are each other's favorite recreational companion
2. You are getting 15 hours of UA each week
3. The activity doesn't include members of the opposite sex

There will be time for recreational activities apart later. Spend the next few months concentrating on your marriage.

Thanks Prisca. I agree we need to spend months at our marriage. We have a road trip planned for the end of March, driving 2500 miles to Florida and spending a month there before driving 2500 miles home. Lots of UA time😊. Between now and then I hope to get
15-20 hours per week.

I spoke with Joyce again today and we agreed that we are not ready for the radio show quite yet. We did discuss some things that she said she may bring up as topics on the show, possibly today.

What do you mean by "not ready"?

Not ready...the original questions I/we had have been answered by delving into the books and MB website information. We are working our way through the worksheets and doing the required amount of UA time. Because we feel that our biggest issues can be dealt with using POJA, but don't feel equiped to tackle that yet, (as we are working on filling love banks first), we decided POJA questions would be where we need help.

Hello again. So, yesterday I tried openness and honesty. We have a family dinner coming up and my husband told me that my son has invited my husband's parents. I do not care for my MIL because she is very critical, demanding and controlling. For the past few years, I have mostly avoided family gatherings they are at. So yesterday, I took the plunge and told H that it stresses me to think about his parents being at the gathering because I don't like MIL meanness. He replied that she is old, she isn't going to change now, I shouldn't expect that, etc. I said I am not asking for change, what I would like is to brainstorm ideas as to how I can lessen stress at the gathering if she starts something. He said he doesn't know what can be done. I said, well, for example, if she starts, maybe you could come to me and stand by my side and put your arm around me. He said he could do that. later, he said to me that I needed to get over my dislike of his mother and suck it up and like he has been telling me for years, I need professional help. Things went downhill lots more after that. Although he says he wants me to share how I feel about things, he doesn't make it safe for me to do so. It was a mistake for me to open up to him and I feel stupid for starting to trust him.

The default position in the POJA is to do nothing until both of you are enthusiastic. This means neither one of you should visit with your husband's parents until you are both enthusiastic about a solution to your mother-in-law.

Of course, you cannot negotiate a solution right now, because your husband continues his demands and disrespectful judgements of you.

So, neither one of you should be visiting with his parents for the foreseeable future.

Thank you, Prisca. We are definitely struggling in our marriage. It is wearing me out mentally and physically to continue this way. I have asked my H to come here and be open to being educated on how to have an MB marriage and lose the love busters.

We did very well for several weeks with UA time and building love bank balances. However, we were totally avoiding conflicts or discussing conflicts. This weekend, we had a severe setback. It seems impossible for us to discuss things that we differ on.

H asks me a lot of questions about how will we deal with hypothetical but probable situations. I try to explain we would do it MB style. But my attempting to educate H leads to problems too as he has a lot of "yeah, but(s)". I have requested that H ask his questions on the forum so others can guide him. I will do the same.

H has some annoying habits that are love buster's to me. I shared them with him on the worksheets. Example, he has terrible posture and slouches something fierce. This has caused him to become quite stooped and to lose some range of motion in his neck. I find his posture unattractive. Sometimes I will say, " give me some eye candy" and he will straighten up. Yum!

I have asked him for years to give physiotherapy a try. He has gotten a referral for this twice but hasn't made an appointment. He has recently been to a doctor about his neck and mentioned his posture. That doctor says well, look at your father, what is his posture like. H's father is 95 years old. So, hunched, yes.

H tells me it is a love buster for him when I mention his posture. Or other annoying habits.

I read him the section on complaints being a good thing because they give him information he can use to make deposits. H says my complaints are love busters to him and thus love bank withdrawals.

How do I handle this?

Another question..I told H that I am tired of taking the lead in improving our marriage. He asked me "are you willing to follow then?"

I don't want this to be an adversarial process although that is the way it feels. How do I articulate that it is not for me to do all the heavy lifting?

Complaints cause love bank withdrawals but they are not love busters. You can minimise that by the way you handle them.

First always chose a neutral moment and ask permission. Something along the lines of 'would now be a good time to tell you about a complaint that I have?' Important not to do this at the time when you have a problem but later. Not only does that mean you will not be irritated (which will come through in your delivery) but it will give you time to think about how to present the issue.

Secondly you must always present your complaint as an issue for you so that it does not come across as a lecture. So you might say 'it bothers me when you fill the kitchen sink with dirty plates'.

Then drop it. Don't have a discussion. You do not want to put yourself in a defensive position. It really does not matter why it bothers you. The fact is that it does.

Some issues are harder to resolve than others. Certainly many years of poor posture would be a lot harder to address than a few dirty plates. But suggesting a solution is a love buster as you are lecturing him. You simply say that his poor posture bothers you. If he asks for suggestions on how to solve this, think of something that he might enjoy. Obviously not physiotherapy. What about tango dancing?

Ok, living well, that is very helpful. Clearly, I am not addressing complaints in anywhere near the correct way.

How many times do I mention a complaint? Once and done? Do we revisit the LB worksheets occasionally to review progress?

Complaints make lovebank withdrawals because they are a negative. No one likes to be told they've done something negative. However, they are not considered lovebusters. Complaints are necessary in a marriage, because without them, course corrections cannot occur. Both of you need to know when the other is feeling a lovebank withdrawal, so that you can both stop the withdrawals.

Since both of you have a history of lovebusting, stick to using the forms when making a complaint. Do not complain face to face. Use the forms, and be matter-of-fact. Leave emotion out of your complaint. All you are doing is informing him of a love bank withdrawal. You don't need to punish him for making the withdrawal -- don't criticize.

There is a difference between a complaint and criticism. So, "It bothers me when you hunch over" is a good complaint. "Your posture looks lazy and unattractive" is criticism.

Also, don't tell him what to do to solve the problem. He may ask for your help, but he doesn't have to. Telling him what to do is a lovebuster. Let him figure out how to solve the problem.

Have your prioritized your list of annoying habits? If not, you should put the list in order of priority, from the most annoying to the least annoying. He should then take the first 3 and concentrate on those.

You've made the suggestion, so now drop it. Do not make this a demand. If he is willing to stop his annoying behavior, then he can figure out how to do that without you telling him what to do and how to do it.

Since both of you have a history of lovebusting, stick to using the forms when making a complaint. Do not complain face to face. Use the forms, and be matter-of-fact.

What forms are you referring to? The LB forms?

Thank you for the reply.

Yes, the lovebuster forms. They are found in 5 Steps to Romantic Love. You should be exchanging the forms once a week.

Ok, got it.

You're not supposed to be doing the heavy lifting. You are both supposed to meet each others emotional needs, use POJA, and avoid love busters.

Ask him to do what you need him to do to improve his side of the marriage. Leave him him to make any requests he has of you, or not.

Okay. I will work on a list of things I need him to do to improve his side of the marriage.

Can you give me a " for instance" to get me started so I can avoid SD's?

Well you certainly don't want to turn into a nag. That will devalue the currency.

But neither should an issue be swept under the rug. So revisit if nothing changes. Yes review the LB worksheet if you use that. Praise is good if there is an improvement.

I like Prisca's idea of ranking your complaints and focusing on the top three.

Yes, lots of great suggestions and feedback. While I am very grateful, it is hard to be patient and even harder to be hopeful that you wonderful MB folk can work your magic with my H. He has said many things to me today that are very hurtful as well as sharing my personal health information without my agreement. I am working on keeping quiet with him to avoid any more LB's.

What is best for me to do at this point? Post what is happening, not post at all while he gets input on his thread? Our son's are coming over tonight for a boy's night with their dad ( one son lives far away and is home for a visit) so H won't be posting again till later tonight or tomorrow.

Post when you need to post. Now is fine.

It is good to see H getting responses. I was reading Markos'/Prisca's story, there are some parallels. I wonder what are the odds of a similar outcome in our case?

I am feeling tremendous anger this morning.

Sunday was the family dinner thing as you all know.
On Monday, he sent me an email asking me ..
"How do you feel about me committing to getting Mom and Dad to the funeral if they chose to go?"
This funeral is today for a 94 year old cousin.

Because I do not feel safe to answer with my actual feelings, I told him to do whatever he would like to do. His response to this was "thank you".

Yesterday morning, I was almost ready for work when he demanded that we take the morning off to work on our issues. He implied/threatened that he would leave me if I refused. I said I didn't want to stay home with him because he was already out of control and being a bully. I was a mess by then though and couldn't have gone in to work. When I called in sick 10 minutes later, I was crying and could barely speak when my boss answered the phone.

He did calm down and we spent the day posting, at my request. Later in the day, he said that our biggest trigger for LB's on both parts is his mother/family. He said that it is a strong need for him to honor his mother and father by doing things for them. He said I was asking him to never see them again. A few minutes later, he said he didn't say I was asking him to never see them again, he was asking did I say that. (I have read a bit on gaslighting-I definitely feel he is gaslighting me.)

Something to note, my H has nine siblings, seven of whom live nearby and all of whom are active in helping out with the parents. H has been taking them to church on Sundays and visiting on Wednesday evenings for years. And I have never ever requested that this cease.

I was upset that he would choose to ask me how I felt about driving the parents to the funeral because we are still on rocky ground with our marriage and this is a trigger on the day following this latest issue. I was fairly certain he knew I wouldn't feel good about it. Is that a DJ on my part? It doesn't feel okay to me that he put the onus on me to say I am not in favor, and risk the fallout of that, when he already knows how I would feel. I asked him about this and he said it is not for him to decide how I would feel.

Last night, he had a boys night planned at our house with our 3 sons, one of whom is home for a visit and leaving Friday. H asked me if I wanted him to cancel this which I appreciated but didn't wish him to cancel on our sons. He didn't ask me if I wanted him to cancel taking the parents.

This morning, I asked him if we are going to work today. He looked at me in total astonishment. He was dressed up a bit because, of course, he has that funeral to take his parents to. He wondered why I would ask if we were going to work. I said, well, he demanded yesterday that we not go to work, because that is what he wanted, so today, he wants to take his parents to the funeral, so that is what is going to happen, just thought I would see what his plan for me was.

I knew at the time that I was committing LB's, my feeling was that even though the history is not there to support it, I hoped he would make the good will gesture toward me of asking one of his siblings to step in today. I hoped that would happen because of the postings to him (maybe he would have a light bulb moment) yesterday and last night. I didn't make a respectful request that he do this because of fear of the outcome of that request.

I do not know what to do with this anger and pain.

BG, it would be best if you would tell your husband you are not enthusiastic about his requests when that is how you feel.

Dr. Harley and Joyce had an incident early in their marriage where his father was extremely disrespectful to Joyce. Dr. Harley told his father they wouldn't be seeing him again until he apologized to Joyce and gave assurances that such behavior on his part would never happen again. After awhile Dr. Harley's father apologized to Joyce and the relationship was restored.

That might be something you would want to try in your situation.

BG, Markos is absolutely correct, you must stop making reluctant agreements. We explained this to your husband yesterday, but the first step is for you to stop agreeing to things that make you miserable. You feel angry and resentful because of this. You need to stop it!

Your post was so painful to read.

You've mentioned a few times that you are too scared to either make a request, or to tell your husband how you really feel when he asks your opinion.

What are you afraid of? What has happened in the past when you have expressed desires that are different from your husband's?

When you say "He implied/threatened that he would leave me if I refused", what did he actually say? And what do you mean by "he did calm down"? How un-calm was he before he calmed down?

How did he respond when you broke down in tears about his demand to take the day off? How does he respond in general when you are upset at what he has said?

Your post was so painful to read.

You've mentioned a few times that you are too scared to either make a request, or to tell your husband how you really feel when he asks your opinion.

What are you afraid of? What has happened in the past when you have expressed desires that are different from your husband's?

I am afraid of his reaction. When I express a desire different from my husband's, on certain topics, church/faith, charitable donations, not wanting to spend time with certain of his family members, he uses DJ's, AO's, and SD's. He says or implies I am selfish, cheap, and lots more. I am tired of being made to feel that I don't deserve better treatment. I am afraid that l or he will reach the point of no return.

When you say "He implied/threatened that he would leave me if I refused", what did he actually say? And what do you mean by "he did calm down"? How un-calm was he before he calmed down?

He said that he didn't know how we could go on if we didn't get things sorted out. He said he wasn't willing to continue as we are. I said it sounded like he was threatening to leave me. And he agreed that he was considering that. I do not remember word for word exactly, and he may object that he said this. He talked in a loud angry voice when I said I didn't want to stay home. He did get himself under control and stopped using DJ's for a while. (Note however, I have also threatened to leave him in the past, told him my health will not stand much more of this. I did this in January of 2016)

How did he respond when you broke down in tears about his demand to take the day off? How does he respond in general when you are upset at what he has said?

He disregarded my tears. He almost always disregards my tears. I hate crying and I hate even more showing him this weakness. This is what happens to me when I am frustrated beyond measure. Once I am a blubbering mess, he will ask me if I want a hug. By this point, I usually just want to get as far from him as possible. Sometimes, he will let me go. Other times, he will yell at me and berate me.

Thank you for answering my questions.

A tip:

Use the "quote" box, as I told you before. However, when you want to quote in bits and pieces, like you did with my questions followed by your answers, copy and paste the brackets each time you start and end a quote, to keep my questions visibly separate from your answers.

What were the things that he wanted to sort out right then and there? Was it about seeing his mother, or other things?

Sorry about that Sugar, I was at work and wrote my reply in a word document and then popped online and pasted.

H wanted us to get past our fight and make up, for lack of a better way to put it. H has difficulty focusing at work when we are having problems in our marriage. He was wanting us to find a way to feel better about each other.

Thank you Markos. I don't have a desire for an apology from MIL. It is not really a one incident thing.

Yes, ML, I need to stop it. I wonder if an aversion has been created regarding MIL because of this.

How to move forward, please help!

Situation:

2 weeks until we go on vacation for a month. This includes driving 2500 miles.
We have house guests this weekend.

I have told H that I am not confident that we can go on vacation together.

Yesterday, he sent me an email apologizing for all hurts he ever inflicted on me and said he will not love bust me in the future.

This morning he wanted to know when we can POJA church. He is concerned that we have so much going on and vacation is near and that I am not confident about going on vacation. I said I don't want try to POJA church at this time and for him to continue as things are re church. He asked could we put a time frame on when we could POJA. I said, when I feel safe to do so.

I said that I am not confident about vacation because I don't yet feel safe and that I do not want to drive 3000 miles with him if he is going to yell at me. He said that my saying that is a DJ and that he doesn't want to drive 3000 miles with me if I am going to yell at him.

Is it a DJ? Do I express my fears? If so, how to say without DJ?

The conversation was getting increasingly uncomfortable for me. I reminded him of his promise to not love bust any more. He said sorry.

I reminded him of Markos post:

What will help is when you learn to view your own love busters IN ISOLATION from her behavior, and learn to stop them NO MATTER WHAT she does.

He said:
"It seems like I am supposed to take responsibility for everything and you are to take responsibility for nothing."

I am weary.

Barigirl, since neither of you are enthusiastic about this vacation, it should be taken off the table.

[/quote]

Barigirl, since neither of you are enthusiastic about this vacation, it should be taken off the table. [/quote]

I am definitely enthusiastic about vacation, as is he. It is the being together part (days long drive) while things are this tense that I am not enthusiastic about.

Barigirl, since neither of you are enthusiastic about this vacation, it should be taken off the table. [/quote]

I am definitely enthusiastic about vacation, as is he. It is the being together part (days long drive) while things are this tense that I am not enthusiastic about. [/quote]

Yes, that is my point.

Bari I was so relieved to read your update. You are listening to and addressing your fears instead of tuning out in weariness. I know this is not easy but you are changing your half and developing skills that will benefit your marriage and your whole life.

When my XH wanted to meet up with our son, he was understandably nervous because my XH tends to go off on long rants about how terrible I am. We advised DS to only see his father where he had the ability to simply get up and leave if he started to rant.

That turned out to be great advice. He did have to abandon dinner but it only happened once. After that XH learned not to do that.

Leave the long car trip till you are further along. Is there another way to get to your destination?

I am definitely enthusiastic about vacation, as is he. It is the being together part (days long drive) while things are this tense that I am not enthusiastic about. [/quote]

Yes, that is my point. [/quote]

I hear you ML. H and I are both enthusiastic about cleaning up our sides of the street so that we aren't tense and can go on vacation together. He is working hard on his side.

Thank you, New, I am learning. The advise here is so helpful.

I think that, despite his saying that he is in favour of this programme and feels that using it will improve your marriage, he actually has great hostility towards it and does not want to use it, because it asks him to do things that go against both his instincts, and his beliefs.

Thank you. While I understand why you are saying to leave the car trip, our spring vacation is major love bank filling time for us and despite recent events, neither of us wants to give that up. Even though I have been sharing our difficulties, I don't mean to make H out to be a monster. I believe he is very committed to working through this, following MB. We get impatient that it isn't fixed overnight. We have had some email exchanges this morning and they are all positive. We have decided to avoid MB and relationship talk for the weekend and enjoy some time together.

It was a DJ for you to express the fear that he would yell at you on the drive. However, it was a not a DJ for you to say that you did not want to do the drive.

For couples who find it impossible to put their points of view across without committing LBs, Dr Harley's advice is that you need to state the fact - that you are not enthusiastic about the drive, and would prefer not to do it - but do not give reasons for why you don't want to do it. This is because the reasons are not important; all that matters is that one of you is not enthusiastic about something (meaning that you don't want to do it), so that other should take those feelings into account as a priority in your planning.

The other spouse should only be concerned that they do not ask the first spouse to do something that they don't want to do, and this is because, first, spouses are supposed to treat each other with extraordinary care and protection, and avoid being the source of each other's unhappiness, and second, because forcing (persuading, cajoling, guilt-tripping) a spouse into doing something he or she does not want to do causes resentment - and that will eventually backfire on the spouse that got his way. Resentment ALWAYS has a negative effect on the love bank balance, and that will turn out to be a problem for the spouse that gets his way, in the longer term (and perhaps even immediately). Cajoling, or bullying, a spouse into doing things they do not want to do causes the slow erosion of love, and the eventual downfall of a marriage. You and our husband are facing thiat situation today, and we readers can see that this has a lot to do with one of you getting your way at the expense of the other.

Your spouse must learn not to ask for (or indeed, demand) reasons for why you don't want to do something. When a spouse asks that question, they are looking to judge whether your reasons are good enough for them; but your reasons do not need to be good enough for your husband. They are your reasons, and your feelings, and your husband needs to learn to accept the fact that you have them. If he wants to know why, so that he can judge whether they are justified or not, most of the time he will conclude that they are not justified, and he will selfishly demand that you do what he wants.

You need to learn to say that you are unenthusiastic about something without love busting your husband. Your husband needs to learn not to ask why not, and to accept that the unwanted course of action needs to be abandoned, and there needs to be discussion about an alternative. If either of you cannot negotiate without becoming emotional and descending into LBs, you need to negotiate in writing, checking your messages before you send them.

So, for this trip, your driving there together is now off the table. You need to brainstorm alternatives, such as one person driving and the other flying, or both flying and hiring a car at the other end.

If you cannot negotiate an outcome about which you are both enthusiastic, you need to use the default position and do nothing - which means not going on this trip.

We are not suggesting that you decide to give up the vacation as a solution to the driving problem. That is to misunderstand POJA. Using POJA encourages you to find a way to have the vacation without the aspects of it that will make one of you unhappy; in this case, the drive.

Not going on the spring vacation would only only come about if between you, you cannot negotiate a way for you to feel enthusiastic about the whole thing - including getting there. The "do nothing" clause would only kick in if you (both) cannot find a solution to the travel problem (and any other problems) about which you are both enthusiastic.

The desire to have this love bank-filling holiday should be an excellent motivator for you (both) to find a solution that allows the holiday to happen. POJA is not intended to stop the holiday from happening.

Does this mean you are not coming back to post any more until this weekend is over? If so, there is no need to stop posting. Your posting here does not necessitate "relationship talk" between the two of you. You can ask your questions here, while not discussing any relationship issues with your husband.

Your posting here also does not mean that you and your husband can't enjoy time together. Indeed, posting here and getting the advice that Dr Harley would give will help you enjoy your time together even more.

No, SugarCane, posting may still happen this weekend. However, houseguests this weekend, ie grandbabies, may prevent.

H wants to email Dr. Harley. Would that be the radio show address?

Sugar, you have the most amazing ability to phrase things. As well as an uncanny knack of getting right to the heart of the matter. Thank you so much.

Yes - you've used this before. This time, follow through with Dr Harley, and do not conclude that you are "not ready" for his advice.

I would agree that it goes against his instincts and his beliefs. I hope he doesn't have great hostility towards it. And that if he does/did, that it can be overcome.

Cheers! It's 'cos I'm British.

I am .25% British. Need to look up my British grandfathers antecedents. He left Britian when he was 16, emigrated to Canada. Went back for WW11. As far as we know, he was estranged from his family. I know nothing about them.

Oh, and I really like tea!

Thanks Sugar. H will be calling Dr. Harley tomorrow morning per his response from Joyce.

This. I have printed this off and will refer to this in every conversation with H until I can GET it.

bg, please do that if it helps but I would much rather you printed off Dr Harley's articles and referred to THEM.

You've probably been asked several times, but I can't go back and check right now: Do you have the book Love Busters, and do you have He Wins She Wins? If not, please order them right away. The two biggest problems in your marriage are that you are unable to negotiate safely about decisions, and reach a conclusion that you are both enthusiastic about, and that you both commit love busters while trying to get your way. HWSW is all about using POJA and negotiating safely.

Do you have those books?

[quote=SugarCane]bg, please do that if it helps but I would much rather you printed off Dr Harley's articles and referred to THEM.

You've probably been asked several times, but I can't go back and check right now: Do you have the book Love Busters, and do you have He Wins She Wins? If not, please order them right away. The two biggest problems in your marriage are that you are unable to negotiate safely about decisions, and reach a conclusion that you are both enthusiastic about, and that you both commit love busters while trying to get your way. HWSW is all about using POJA and negotiating safely.

We have Love Busters. Joyce may send HWSW. If she doesn't, I will download it.

I definitely do read Dr. Harley's articles over and over. We did purchase a year's subscription to MB radio. H is listening more than I.

I love the way Dr. Harley writes. Your post to me spoke to me on a personal level with my particular situation in mind. So I am sucking up all MB related info

H and I are shopping for a laptop. At the moment, I am using an ipad and H is using an ipad mini. Neither are particularly user friendly with this forum. Could be the users though!

The ipad mini is especially difficult for H to interact with the forum. Once he has a laptop with a mouse, it will be much easier for him to post. We anticipate a purchase later this week.

This is good, bg. I think it shows commitment from both of you!

We never really discussed this aspect of your post about the day that your husband made you stay at home and thrash out your problems:

You husband says that he "said POJA" in order to make you stay at home and discuss the things he thought needed discussing there and then:

Your version of these events suggests that he bullied you into staying at home. It does not sound as if he asked you (nicely) how you would feel about phoning in and staying home to try and move forward, but the discrepancy in accounts isn't really the issue. The issue is that POJA is not a tool that allows one spouse to force the other into doing what he wants. You husband wanted you to stay at home and talk, and you did not want to do that. "Saying POJA" is not intended by Dr Harley to give him the means to force you to stay at home.

Neither, and much more importantly, it is a tool for him to force you to talk about any issues when you don't want to talk about them, and when you don't feel safe. Your husband reduced you to tears about this, and when that happened, you were incapable of going to work anyway. That was abusive behaviour on his part, and it has nothing to do with POJA.

If you are ever again in a situation where you do not want to do something, or where you want to get away from your husband, do not allow him to "say POJA" and make you stay. This is a health and safety situation where he was making you stressed and tearful, and you should not have put up with it. If you were unable to go to work once he had succeeded in upsetting you, you STILL should not have stayed in his presence and let him force you into talking.

I'm very worried about the fact that he could have done this to you, and I think you need to speak to Dr Harley, urgently, about the way your husband treats you when he wants to get his way.

Yes, SugarCane, this all has to stop. It all sounds so simple. But, is it simple, to undo 37 years of destructive habits? I did send an email to Joyce with the concerns you expressed and H spoke to her as well. We are moving slowly in the right direction. The weekend was good.

Did anyone hear our radio show yesterday?

I heard it. What did you think of it?

I thought it went well. The Harley's were great.

I would like to hear feedback on it.

I haven't had a chance to listen yet. What did they say?

Dr. Harley referred to the article about how to deal with a nagging wife, saying I am in stage 2 and that we need to fix things before I get to stage 3. He gave us each an assignment, H to find out how to get back into my good graces, and me, to tell H what is bothering me and ask him to stop.

How do we listen to this broadcast again? It appears that the archives aren't updated with March shows yet.

Yes they are behind on the archives. As soon as they are updated then your show will be available to listen to.

The archives have been updated. I would love some feedback.

Here's your show.
Radio Show of Barigirl and Bariguy

Thank you, BrainHurts. Did you get a chance to listen?

How's it going? I finally got a chance to listen. Did you get back from your vacation? How did that go? How has POJAing going?

Not yet back from vacation, 1 week into a 5 week vacation. POJA works great for us on the little things, a bit more difficult on the big issue things. We are/were trying to avoid the big things till post vacation.

My H has been doing super awesome at avoiding LB's since the radio show.

Hello, I need help.

Things are spiralling downward. I have asked H to stop pushing too fast in wanting to "resolve" all issues. I have asked that we focus only on our marriage until we have full lovebanks and have goodwill toward each other and can then POJA from a position of strength about our issues. I told him that I believe i will be more enthusiastic about things he wants if lovebanks are full.

H said that his lovebank cannot fill because all that is going in is resentment. He says that if he can't do things he wants to do or that he feels are important to him, he only feels resentment.

H says doing nothing in POJA means I win and he loses. I pointed out that for me to go with reluctant agreement also causes resentment. H said that I am doing to him what I complain he does to me...saying me too, I feel the same way...negating his feelings.

H has emailed the Harleys a couple of times since Saturday but hasn't yet received a response.

We are really struggling. i don't know what to do.

I posted this for your husband, and here it is for you:

Following the Policy of Joint Agreement
When You're VERY Incompatible

These are demands and disrespectful judgements. Let your husband know that you will be more than happy to negotiate with him, but first he must eliminate the demands and disrespectful judgements. Until he does that, negotiation is not safe for you.

Do not just do what he wants you to do. It will cause a greater resentment on your part than what he is feeling -- the type of resentment that is more damaging to marriages and harder to recover from.

The type of resentment your husband is feeling will go away as soon as the two of you find something else to do that you both enjoy.

The type of resentment you would feel if you just give in and do what he wants WILL NEVER GO AWAY. It will harm your marriage for years to come.

The solution to the conflict you are having is to find something else to do on your return trip home, something you would both love to do. It is not true that seeing his cousin is the ONLY THING he would EVER enjoy doing with you. You've got a world of possibilities out there for you to choose from.

Thanks Prisca. I hope you are correct. H wanted some alone time and said he wanted to go to a car wash with our car. I told him to go for it. That was 3 hours ago. I am here, at a condo by myself.

He is pretty upset and angry. I am trying to do my assignment from Dr. Harley, tell my H want he is doing that bothers me and asking him to stop. From what he has been saying today, he is not willing to do that. But he also says he is trying to learn. I have no idea what will happen next, if and when he returns.

I am trying to stay strong. I know I am not supposed to make reluctant agreements. It is really hard.

When markos and I were on vacation, and he left our condo in anger to disappear for hours, I posted to Dr. Harley:

Dr. Harley's very simple response:

Your marriage is not going to get better until your husband eliminates the demands, disrespect and anger. Negotiation is impossible until those are gone. Other problems cannot be solved until those are gone.

So ... how's he doing on eliminating the lovebusters?

He was doing quite well with eliminating LB's. Not today. He is saying things that sound like ultimatums to me.

How long has it been since his last lovebuster (before today)?

A couple of days.

H and I spent the day separately. When he came to join me on the beach a little while ago, he was very cold and he said that I have caused the problem today because I brought up MB. He says I have done this several times during this vacation and I LB him which causes his LB's. It is true that I have brought things up because I am trying to do my assignment of telling him when things are bothering me. Except for today, I have asked him first if he wants me to share my feelings and he has said yes. Once I open up, I get LB's. A couple of days ago, I asked him if he thought we should talk about things the forum posters have been telling us. He said he definitely thought we should. A little while ago, he told me I have caused the situation today by talking about MB.
He has told me that he feels that if he could just be heard, get his side of the story across, say the right words in the right way, the responses would be different. While he hasn't said the words, I think he is saying you would all see that I am the problem here.
I am trying to figure out how to not be bitter here and not LB for the rest of our time away from home. Can someone please tell me how to do this?

There's not really much you can do, Barigirl, until he eliminates his demands, disrespect and anger. You cannot negotiate anything until that happens.

Avoid having discussions face to face about his lovebusters. Put your complaints in writing (either a notebook, or email). Discussing your complaints face to face will only lead to lovebusting right now. Refuse to enter into a debate about what you feel. You simply feel what you feel, and you don't need to justify it.

If he wants to debate, he can do it by himself in an empty room. Don't engage. If he wants to get past the "do nothing" part of POJA, then he is going to have to approach you with respect.

Guard against lovebusters yourself. Don't try to educate him on any of this -- he's got Dr. Harley, the books, and us on the forum to educate him. Your job is just to respectfully let him know what your complaints are, then leave it at that.

Thank you, Prisca. I appreciate your concise explanation of what I am to do and not do.

h is super frustrated that we are on vacation and not having the good time we hoped and not resolving things either. He also gets frustrated with the logistics of posting on the forum with the tools he has re ipad mini.
I know I am not supposed to educate him. This feeling of being "stuck" is difficult. I was reading other threads where issues parallel ours in some ways. Would it be okay for us to read these threads together and discuss or is that me educating him?

Discussing other peoples problems is a great way to learn It's sometimes easier to see the solution to their problems because you are not emotionally involved in the dispute.

Thanks, Prisca, we will try this.

The downward spiral continues. I don't know what to do.

H and I are barely speaking. I am moving deeply into withdrawal. He seems to be as well.

I have said maybe we should just give up and separate. H replies that is what I have wanted all along. This is not "what I have wanted all along" but he has said this a dozen times recently.

He insists that if he wants to do something and I don't, then doing nothing is him capitulating. He wants me to have "goodwill" and do this thing that is "so important to him".

The forum tells me not to make reluctant agreements.

What am I supposed to do? We are on vacation, in what has been, for several years, our "happy place" and this year it is hell.

He tells me he isn't having any fun with me. It may be somewhat obvious that I am not "having fun" either.

I realize this post is not particularly coherent but can someone please tell me what to do?

Is he still reading here?

We have explained to him that this is not capitulation so he knows it is not. It would be capitulation if you did something against your will, so you should not do that. It is not "goodwill" to force your spouse to do something she does not want to do. That is what he is trying to do.

If it were me, I would end the vacation and go home so you can escape him. Can you fly home?

He is reading once in a while. He does listen to the radio show every day and we do have a subscription to the archives.

That is what I would do, as well.

He is putting pressure on you to manipulate you to just do what he wants because that has worked for him in the past.

Thanks, ML.

Thanks Prisca. I know that is good advice, to end the vacation.

I tried to send a private message but the site says private messages are disabled. Is this not permitted?

Marriage Builders doesn't allow private messages on their forum.

Ok thanks for the info.

Who were you wanting to send a private message to?

I hadn't heard from SugarCane for a while and wanted to see if all is well with her.

All is fine with me, thank you for asking, but why did you want to ask me this in a private message?

I thought maybe you stopped posting to us because of your post about MB being against my H's instincts and beliefs. I wanted to ask you about that but didn't want to upset anyone, my H included. I am sorry for any offence caused.

I am really concerned that you don't feel that you can post freely for help on the forum. I can see from what you have written since you first came here, that your husband gives you a hard time after you post, or after you try and discuss MB with him.

I think you need to reach out again to Dr Harley directly, and I think you need to do this alone. I don't think your communication with Dr Harley should be joint with your husband, because I think you are not radically honest when you know that he will hear what you say. I think that you - specifically you - are in desperate need of help with the next steps that you need to take, and I think that only direct communication with Dr Harley will give you the authority and confidence that you need to take them.

I agree.

So do I.

I can't imagine SugarCane being offended by that...

Marriage Builders is against nearly everybody's instincts and beliefs! That is why:
60% of marriages experience infidelity at some point
40% of marriages end in divorce
20% of marriages end in permanent lifelong separation
20% of marriages stay together but are miserable

Only 20% of marriages stay together and are happy for life.

Most people don't even know anybody who has a good marriage, let alone know how to have a good one themselves.

Everyone always looks at Marriage Builders and says "Oh, that's just common sense," but it's not! Almost nobody lives this way, which is why most marriages are failing and are literally killing people.

Me three.

Thank you SugarCane for your post. Dr. Harley has been in touch with me and we are communicating regularly. He has also emailed H and I believed my H has responded to him.

You are not far off in your analysis. I am very careful in what I say on the forum because I do not want to be disrespectful to my H. He indicates that I am the one who lovebusts and I do. He says I am the one who won't hear him and accept his perspective.

I am trying really hard to follow the advice you all are giving me. I find it tremendously hard to not engage and am only successful some of the time.

Deflection.

Re the cousin visit and the goodwill issue....

H did take the visit off the table when I told him that I didn't want to visit. He says he did not say that if I had goodwill that I would visit the cousin. I DID think that was what he was saying. He said other things at that time (after he took the visit off the table) about how we really need to get the whole family issue resolved soon. This upset me, I felt...not sure how to explain...pushed...maybe.
But my main issue with the whole subject was that when he raised it, he prefaced with the statement that he did not want me to feel pressured in any way and that I should feel free to say how I felt. I took him at his word because he had been treating me really well up till that point from the time of our radio show with the Harley's. And I felt devastated when that happened, further back than when we started with MB. Events since have not improved where I am at.

Thank you Markos. I hope you are saying that we can 'get this' too.

MB and you all on the forum have given me such a gift. The gift of validation, that I am not just full of character flaws and personality problems. That my voice is entitled to be heard and respected.

Both of you can get this, but it is essential that you do your part and hold a firm line. DO NOT GIVE IN to his demands or disrespect. He is used to being able to use them to get his way -- so used to that that he can't even see how he is treating you.

This is a very common problem, and it can be overcome. But he will only be motivated to learn about and change his demands and disrespect if you no longer give in to them. It will be uncomfortable and painful for awhile, but hold your ground.

Are you two exchanging lovebuster worksheets?

My husband just posted this to yours:

How does your husband respond to you when you feel he is disrespectful?

Have you (specifically YOU) been radically honest with Dr Harley when you describe what is going on in your marriage?

Have you had to restrain what you say to Dr Harley, "because I do not want to be disrespectful to my H"?

I can't believe that, if you have communicated to him the desperation that seethes beneath your carefully-written, "respectful" posts, Dr Harley has not suggested urgent action to change this situation. I can only deduce that you are not being radically honest with Dr Harley.

Holding my ground is certainly uncomfortable and painful. And he struggles greatly with seeing how he is treating me.

I have definitely held my ground on many issues over our years together. I am far from being a doormat. It is the LB's that are wearing me down, the ones that H is strggling to see.

We have not exchanged lovebuster worksheets. We plan to do that when we get home. We are also planning to do the 12 week course in the HWSW workbook on Dr. Harley's recommendation.

I don't think H has seen this yet. We spent the day at the beach. It was a good day. We are learning lots, I think.

My H responds really positively some of the time especially since the radio show. Some times, he gets frustrated and defensive and deflects.

I have been radically honest with Dr. Harley. We have had several emails back and forth over the last couple of weeks. Prior to our radio show, Dr. Harley had us send detailed emails to him about what is going on, he read the posts from both of us and also spoke with some forum members. He is in contact with my H as well this week.

Dr. Harley believes my H is sincere in his wish to change and is advising us as we go along.

Please note...the car story is an analogy only. H uses analogies a lot. Sometimes they help me to understand what he is saying, sometimes not. Whatever, the car story is not a real thing.

Don't worry about it, BG. The problem is that we need to teach your husband some things about how to avoid love busting you, and he's missing a lot of it because he's busy trying to teach us. We see this problem a lot, here.

To be specific, we want to help him understand why disrespectful things he says to you are hurtful - but he wants to explain why you shouldn't feel hurt by the things he said. Do you see that problem frequently?

Yes, Markos, I do see that problem frequently. On our radio show, I stated that H uses a lot of words. What I find happens with his use of a lot of words is that he almost debates with himself, saying (IMO) conflicting views/ideas/thoughts so that when he wraps up, I am unsure just what he has actually said, feels, thinks, etc.

H is recognizing that his communication style needs work as he sees/feels that the forum is misunderstanding him as well. We talked about this and have determined that we need to work on being sure we understand what the other is saying.

That being said, however, I feel this is an interim fix, because H's style of communication is causing LB's to me.

That's a really common problem, Barigirl. I used to do it to Prisca frequently.

You guys should definitely do what Dr. Harley suggests in Love Busters: give each other a worksheet every week listing things the other did or said that you found demanding, disrespectful, or angry.

When he gets your worksheet he should read it and use that information to learn how to avoid doing the things that you find to be demanding, disrespectful, or angry.

He should not debate the worksheet with you. If he has any questions about why something was disrespectful to you he can ask us or Dr. Harley for help, but he should not come back and explain to you why he thinks something was not a love buster. If he does, put that down as a Disrespectful Judgment on the worksheet for next week.

The goal is for him to get through a week with an empty worksheet. If he can't accomplish that goal in a month Dr. Harley usually suggests that professional help is needed. Since you're in email contact with him he may have more specific suggestions for you if that happens - mention it to him.

Thanks Markos. We will be doing this.

I think that it would be a serious mistake for you not to do the full, 1 year accountability online course, where you will be assigned an MB coach, and you will have direct contact with Dr Harley. You two absolutely CANNOT do the course on your own. You need guidance.

It seems that Dr Harley never recommends the online course directly, because he is loathe to encourage people to buy his services. He gives away books when people are on the radio show, and he emails people without charge, for as long as they need help. His recommendation of the free Home Study course is in line with his philosophy of not putting pressure on people to buy his products.

However, if you want the best home study course that you can get, you will pay for the online course that costs about $1000. For the amount of help you'll get from your coach, with direct access to Dr Harley via the private forum here on this website for the rest of your lives, this sum is peanuts. I don't understand how Dr Harley provides this service for such a reasonable amount.

Thank you SugarCane. I am aware of this course and its cost. I have no problem doing it if we need it and H is on board as well.

We are back from our extended vacation. The last couple of weeks were lovely.

I want to thank you all for being there for us. We have much work ahead of us but I feel we are still moving forward.

So he didn't love bust you the last couple of weeks?

He did love bust a bit, yes. but he is learning. He listens to the radio show every day and has access to the Archives as well.

Is it common to swing between hope and despair from day to day?

A bad marriage causes a lot of mental anguish, particularly for women.

You recently posted that you would consider the accountability program 'if you need it.' I personally think you needed it in January when you got here, would you agree? What is indicating to you, when you have been here for months and still feel this way, that you don't need it?

Barigirl, did you and your H decide to start the program?

We are working our way through the HWSW workbook course. We are halfway through.

How are you doing?

Really well. H is taking the lead with our scheduling of UA and time for the course. Deposits are being made. Withdrawals have declined immensely.

Just wanted to post an update. We are doing well. Getting lots of UA time and re-filling lovebanks. I want to thank you all and the MB program for helping us.

Thanks for the great update, I've been rooting for you!

yeah!!!

I am having trouble understanding how the radio archives work. In the MB Radio app, I added several clips to the �playlist� but now cannot figure out where this playlist is. When I look at �edit playlist�, nothing is there. When I click �start playlist�, nothing happens.

Any suggestions? Thanks.

Which app are you using, iPhone or Android? Do you have an account for the archives?

I use apple and yes, I have a subsciption to the archives,

Great new article by Dr. Harley
http://www.marriagebuilders.com//graphic/mbi8123_complain.html

Many similarities in my marriage of 36 years. Only thing is that my husband is a missionary. Our marriage is at the point where I need to do Plan B, but I am not able to work in the country I live in. It would also mean the immediate dismissal from missionary service, eliminating his job permanently and all income.
We went for counselling 15 years ago. My husband never followed through with his responsibilities. One was to do the MB needs survey. He refused.
I'm certain that if I was in the USA, and could get a job that would allow me to move out, this would have already happened.
I love my husband, but like Dr.Harley said 80% of divorces come from neglect. My husband is good at ministering to everyone BUT me.
Any advice?

Hi DesperateMission, I would start up a new thread on this forum so posters can see your post and give you feedback. Posters won't see you buried down at the bottom of this thread. Welcome to Marriage Builders!