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CWMI #2453159 12/16/10 12:33 PM
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CWMI,

I have been away for 7 months, and came back today to see what was going on. I was so disappointed to read your post. After the first page, I skipped to the last one.

None of us know enough to really know what is going on in your husband's mind or in your mind. From this distance, and the perspective of being away, it seems obvious your husband needs to change the type of employers, coworkers, and clients he has.

His whole business is focused on people whose egos are not solid. They have to reassure themselves by spending money foolishly on expensive toys, and having other people fall all over them, providing service and praise.

Your husband, because of his childhood, has some need of the same things, just not the huge income to buy these toys. He gets to play with other people's toys, and works like a dog to have them praise him, reassure him.

It is a treadmill, going nowhere. Like the sled dog at the back, the view never changes. Sooner or later, he has to jump off, or he will fall down and it will dump him off.

Know that he is struggling with this every day at work, especially in this economy, with so few places to go. What he needs is to know that you understand the demons that drive him, that you support what he needs, not more beating him up for not giving you what you need.

This is where so many couples fail, at compassion, at understanding, at asking to be understood, asking for help in changing their lives into a seeking of positive things, rather than running from old fears. He isn't likely to volunteer his true thoughts, because that is a sign of weakness. It makes him vulnerable. You have to let him know that you understand something is wrong, something is troubling him, creating conflicts which he expresses diametrically opposite from what he really feels about you.

Right now, he is living selfishly, but it is out of worry, pressure at work, his self-image and insecurity. You are reacting by going to the same individual mode. Both of you need to return to a level of intimacy in conversation that will enable him to find what truly makes him happy, so he can better serve you. I suspect that will be with a clientele more down to earth, who work very hard for the much fewer dollars they have. He can respect them.


Me: 61
Dear Wife: 58
Married: 35 years
Retread #2453168 12/16/10 12:58 PM
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I think it's pretty clear what he really feels about me, Retread.

BTW, I've missed your presence here.

Here is some stuff from the last couple of days: I went with him to the Co Christmas dinner Tuesday. We had a great time, then went to a local watering hole afterwards, where a man sitting next to us (within a group of three--2 dudes, one gal) said, after we'd engaged in conversation with each other, that he was surprised we were married to each other for ten years, we acted more like lovers who were married to someone else. I said, "That's so sad, that you think that of marriage."

Then Wednesday came.

I did not go to the event--at an art gallery, to sell cars?--and told H that I did not feel the need to honor an agreement that I made without RH from him, and it was up to him if he was going to go. He said that he was going to go to honor his agreement to his boss, but it would be the last time evah that he would volunteer to do this stuff. I said, "I have no reason to believe that."

So he got home at 10pm and I haven't spoken to him since. Like I said before, I'm forked. Done. I am doing nothing else for this marriage.


Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
(Oscar Wilde)
CWMI #2453208 12/16/10 01:52 PM
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Oh! I forgot this morning! He called a couple of weeks ago and said that he got an iPad (spiff), but didn't want it, could swap it for money, but if I wanted it for my Christmas present, he'd authorize it. I said heck yeah (long story short, he bought me a computer a couple years ago for Christmas, 'upgrading' to a much heavier one that he thought I'd appreciate more, when what I wanted was mobility, I already had a heavy laptop).

Anyway, I say all that to say I wasn't honest when I said I hadn't spoken to him. He was opening the iPad box this morning (it arrived via fedex yesterday) and I said, "WTF are you doing opening my Christmas present???"

FORK. ME.

I need to feel something other than hatred. I need to feel nothing. God will not grant me that. smile


Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
(Oscar Wilde)
CWMI #2453243 12/16/10 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by CWMI
and I said, "WTF are you doing opening my Christmas present???"

Ouch.


Originally Posted by CWMI
I need to feel something other than hatred. I need to feel nothing. God will not grant me that. smile

Yes you do.

SmilingWoman #2453252 12/16/10 03:36 PM
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CWMI,
After being away for 7 or 8 months, I did not plan to post twice i one day, but since you just posted, I will keep a dialogue going with you.

I am not saying you should not feel sore at your husband. He is slipping back into what appears to be the same old behaviors which hurt you in his old job. It is very easy for current behaviors to be triggers for old feelings, too easy to feel like you felt before, when it maybe isn't the same behavior, or the same situation, nor nearly as bad.

You didn't address any of my comments, so I guess you are to steamed to shift your point of view from your own feelings to his feelings, to what is driving him, about which I speculated.

I would recommend a book about anger that has been discussed here before, but that is what got me expelled last Spring. You and your husband are both dancing, reaction to each other, a sort of chain reaction.

Retread #2453259 12/16/10 03:46 PM
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Retread, I understand his feelings very well. He needs validation and approval from his workmates. He works very hard for that. I support his effort there.

What I do not support is his lack of seeking validation and approval at home. I am ready, willing, and able to smother him with admiration, support, and approval. I have been doing this for years. I am, perhaps, responsible for his ginormous head.


Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
(Oscar Wilde)
SmilingWoman #2453260 12/16/10 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by SmilingWoman
Originally Posted by CWMI
and I said, "WTF are you doing opening my Christmas present???"

Ouch.


Originally Posted by CWMI
I need to feel something other than hatred. I need to feel nothing. God will not grant me that. smile

Yes you do.


I would like more than one-word responses. S'planation, por favor?


Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
(Oscar Wilde)
CWMI #2453295 12/16/10 05:01 PM
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Originally Posted by CWMI
Originally Posted by SmilingWoman
Originally Posted by CWMI
and I said, "WTF are you doing opening my Christmas present???"

Ouch.


Originally Posted by CWMI
I need to feel something other than hatred. I need to feel nothing. God will not grant me that. smile

Yes you do.


I would like more than one-word responses. S'planation, por favor?

Well, easy enough for me to just say, 'stop that.' Ha!

I can't quite figure out the relationship you two have. In one post you detailed an evening with your husband where a stranger thought you two didn't seem 'married'. What was the stranger's actual (although done in poor tasted to suggest you were having an affair) intent? Was he saying you and your dh seemed into each other? In love? That is a compliment, right?

And if that is what the stranger was picking up from you two...I feel intimacy between you and your dh....conflict too...constant nearly...but definitely intimacy.

Trust me---you do not want to 'feel nothing.'

However, you can choose to stop feeling hatred for him. That is yours to own.

Is it just possible that you are not going to get what you want from your dh? If so, will you divorce him? I can't fathom divorcing a man over working too much. Perhaps he will let that working too much devolve into something else, a slippery slope that ends in an affair....but perhaps not. Perhaps if you can see him as he is as a flawed man who loves you and loves his children....but still as he is.

Could you let go of the hatred then?

SmilingWoman #2453311 12/16/10 05:31 PM
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WTH, SW? You can't see divorcing a man who works too much? To whom? What constitutes 'working too much' in your book?

45-50 hours is my limit.

You may be fine with 70, but I am not. wth?


Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
(Oscar Wilde)
CWMI #2453313 12/16/10 05:34 PM
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CWMI,
I want to be sure of what is bothering you so much.

1. He needs validation from his work more than he needs it from you?

2. He receives validation from his work more than he does from you.

3. He doesn't validate or respect you and your needs.

I also see now that he is working 60 and 70 hours a week, another slippage from what this job was supposed to be. I have been in that situation, where the management slowly turns up the heat, and has everyone competing to work unpaid overtime. That's a tough one to fight, in this economy.

Back to my original suggestion - the two of you chill out, back up, and get him to brainstorm, blue sky, clean sheet of paper, what he would really like to be doing, what would really make him happy - not how he would tune his current job or career.

Let him talk it out. Then you do the same for what you would like in your ideal world. Don't limit your thinking to your present world.


Me: 61
Dear Wife: 58
Married: 35 years
Retread #2453316 12/16/10 05:45 PM
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Retread, you're talking like we haven't been through SH counsel yet. We have, I've done all I'm willing to do, I'm finished! I'm not doing anything else until I file. I'm done. Nobody can talk me into doing anything more except H, and I don't believe a word coming out of his mouth.


Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
(Oscar Wilde)
CWMI #2453319 12/16/10 05:49 PM
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Originally Posted by CWMI
WTH, SW? You can't see divorcing a man who works too much? To whom? What constitutes 'working too much' in your book?

45-50 hours is my limit.

You may be fine with 70, but I am not. wth?

Well, I was just giving you my opinion. My more than 'one word' explanation.

Sounds like you have drawn a line in the sand.

Shrug.

SmilingWoman #2453346 12/16/10 06:46 PM
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Well, CWMI, good luck to you in the future. Divorce is tough...if you do go down this path. I think the hardest part of this is going to be telling the kiddos and watching them cry and then be resentful towards both of you for a long time. At least that's how it's been in my situation when I was divorcing from my exwife and from those I've been around that have been divorced (and we know how high the divorce rate is). My 12 year old is still pretty uspet and vocal about it that her mom and dad couldn't stay married and that was over a decade ago. My 14 year old isn't quite as vocal but still mentions it.

I do think you might get all the honesty from him that you ever wanted when you file. I think when you do, he's going to be angry enough to finally be honest with you and drop the 'list' of complaints that he has about you but is afraid to be honest with you about.


Husband (me) 39
Wife 36
Daughter 21
Daughter 19
Son 14
Daughter 10
Son 8 (autistic)

kilted_thrower #2453465 12/17/10 09:11 AM
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Quote
I need to feel something other than hatred. I need to feel nothing. God will not grant me that.

He will grant it it you. State of Withdrawal. Actually, you know by now your H is responsible for how you feel about him. And you're on the Road from State for Conflict to State of Withdrawal, where you feel nothing.

What do you think about a Plan B separation before going to D? I wasn't able to make that happen, but for you, do you think you could get your H to move out?

What do you think about a Plan B letter, so you don't take him back too soon, before you two are set up for success?


Me 40, OD 18 and YD 13
Married 15 years, Divorced 10/2010
NewEveryDay #2453492 12/17/10 10:03 AM
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Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
What do you think about a Plan B separation before going to D? I wasn't able to make that happen, but for you, do you think you could get your H to move out? What do you think about a Plan B letter, so you don't take him back too soon, before you two are set up for success?

I am astounded that anyone would think this man should move out of his family home because he works more than his wife wants him to.

SmilingWoman #2453502 12/17/10 10:23 AM
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SW, you know it is way, way more complex than that. This statement is an unfair characterization.


CWMI - what are you thinking today?


Me; W 46
Him; H 46

2 girls
DD19
DD16
Dated/Married total 28 years.
..I am learning and working on myself.
barbiecat #2453509 12/17/10 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted by barbiecat
SW, you know it is way, way more complex than that. This statement is an unfair characterization.


CWMI - what are you thinking today?

I will admit I haven't read every single post. Part of the time CWMI has been here I've been off dealing with a WH who destroyed our family. I do see that she has negotiated with him over this work issue and he has gone back on his word. I do understand that she doesn't believe his promises. I understand how distressing that is.

I still do not believe it is grounds for asking him to leave his home. JMO.

SmilingWoman #2453549 12/17/10 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by SmilingWoman
I still do not believe it is grounds for asking him to leave his home. JMO.

CWMI's husband could be considered a workaholic. Do you think it's not fair to ask him to leave because having work as his first love isn't "as bad" has having another woman, alcohol, or drugs has his first love?

I learned very early on, actually, that being a workaholic was a very acceptable method of escape from my family. It became one of my go-to coping mechanism for life. Sure, I was able to accomplish good things, but I don't think that using work to escape or cope is really "good" under any circumstances.

SH didn't make much of an impact with CWMI's husband..Sometimes we need to pull out the big guns, so to speak, with respect to boundaries.


inrecoverynow #2453582 12/17/10 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by inrecoverynow
CWMI's husband could be considered a workaholic. Do you think it's not fair to ask him to leave because having work as his first love isn't "as bad" has having another woman, alcohol, or drugs has his first love?

I do not equate workaholic with adultery, alcoholism and drug addiction.

I will however, agree with this

Originally Posted by inrecoverynow
I learned very early on, actually, that being a workaholic was a very acceptable method of escape from my family. It became one of my go-to coping mechanism for life.

Sometimes people turn out to be different than what we thought they would be. Life is like that. Marriage is like that. Sometimes one of the mates will not make changes the other one wants. I do not believe that is grounds for divorce.


Originally Posted by inrecoverynow
SH didn't make much of an impact with CWMI's husband..Sometimes we need to pull out the big guns, so to speak, with respect to boundaries.


Over on SAA I've seen a man (SOL) post that he has been adviced by SH or other counselors affilitated with this site to not leave an adulterous wife...one that is pretty much in his face about her affair and her unwillingness to save their marriage. So I can't believe it would be the thing to do to leave a man because work issues cannot be POJA'd.

Again just me. As a BW who has watched my child go through he** and myself suffer because of the divorce I sought due to WXH's adultery...I know I would NEVER divorce over workaholism.


SmilingWoman #2453598 12/17/10 12:18 PM
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Smiling Woman,

Three years ago, I would have agreed with you. That thought seems utterly ridiculous. The problem was the thought of living in a marriage where you are not put first (or second or third or tenth)is draining.

It seems to me, she has several options

1. Request and receive the best counseling available (check)

2. Continue to live in a relationship that she finds disrespectful and dissatisfying (check)

3. Seperate or divorce

Right now she is as number 2. I was there. My DH's "other woman" was his work and all the "fun" activities that were related to his work. I did complain but I felt ridiculous...how could I even consider leaving because he (gasp) works too hard.

So, I didn't consider it. I was good with boundaries around coworkers and old friends....until I wasn't.

I am in no way suggesting that my affair was justified...quite the contrary. I am saying that CWMI often gets berated here for stating what she will not tolerate. She is told that leaving or making him leave is ridiculous. SHE IS DOING IT RIGHT where I was doing it all wrong.

I went into withdrawl...from there an affair wasn't really that much of a stretch...we already had seperate activites/vacations/interests. I felt like as long as I was there to meet his domestic needs/have sex/ and provide well behaved children to smile on our Christmas card, I was good. I actually continued to provide all of that during my affair.

Turns out of course I couldn't have been more wrong. I should have made my needs clear and defended my boundaries like CWMI is doing. Maybe she isn't as subtle and kind as she could be but she has been doing this awhile

AND she is in conflict which means she hasn't withdrawn

Yet.


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