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I'm definitely messed up from this forum. My marriage is infinitely worse after following the advice of some of you in here. I basically told my wife for the second time that I don't trust her, she hates my guts for it. It probably wasn't even fair. I believe in many of the principles here and I think there are parts of me that have improved after reading the book. I DO NOT however believe that I'm better off after interacting with many of you. The problem is your own experiences taint the advice that you give. I went from trusting my wife 100% to accusing her of cheating within a month of being here? You can be offended if you want, I don't give a crap. I just can't do this anymore so I'm not gonna read here anymore, sorry. I'll read your replies, no doubt many of which will tell me otherwise, but I'm not gonna throw away my marriage because someone tells me that get keylogger software and to record my wife's phone calls. I'm sorry you or some of you had infidelity issues but that is not the case here. Best of luck to you all.

Steve, Dr Harley, if you read this great, I hope you do. I'm sure you enough experience in helping marriages where my comments likely won't effect you and that is fine. You do however need to be aware of what's going on here in an open forum, ok?


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Well, good luck to you then.
And many of us on here haven't had infidelity just not great marriages that we have used MB to make them great marriages. I haven't had infidelity in my current marriage and at one point was dealing with a lot of the same issues you are. Not anymore.

Regardless if you think there's infidelity or not, you're going to get resentful about your needs not being met and it's going to poison the marriage. But that's up to you if you keep allowing yourself to be a doormat. A doormat=she basically does what she wants, says what she wants, and dismisses how you feel or what you need and you support it while you're just meeting her needs.


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Originally Posted by Hilltopper1972
I'm definitely messed up from this forum. My marriage is infinitely worse after following the advice of some of you in here. I basically told my wife for the second time that I don't trust her, she hates my guts for it. It probably wasn't even fair. I believe in many of the principles here and I think there are parts of me that have improved after reading the book. I DO NOT however believe that I'm better off after interacting with many of you. The problem is your own experiences taint the advice that you give. I went from trusting my wife 100% to accusing her of cheating within a month of being here? You can be offended if you want, I don't give a crap. I just can't do this anymore so I'm not gonna read here anymore, sorry. I'll read your replies, no doubt many of which will tell me otherwise, but I'm not gonna throw away my marriage because someone tells me that get keylogger software and to record my wife's phone calls. I'm sorry you or some of you had infidelity issues but that is not the case here. Best of luck to you all.

Steve, Dr Harley, if you read this great, I hope you do. I'm sure you enough experience in helping marriages where my comments likely won't effect you and that is fine. You do however need to be aware of what's going on here in an open forum, ok?


Um...

Who told you to march up to her and tell her "I don't trust you!"

?

Really?


Anyone?

Did anyone here tell you to confront her because you found out she changed her underwear before she went running?

?

No?

Anyone?


Nobody here told you to puppy dog her, and confront her at every turn. That is what you decided to do on your own. That was NOT the advice you were given.

Nor would it be to install spyware on her phone, and then question her about every phone call after you hear it, which is what you would seemingly do, and then blame the board for giving you the advice.

So begins the same post many posters previous to you have made; it just ain't happening guys, you are wrong!

Within the next year, it will be "I'm back guys, and you were RIGHT!"

Which is too bad, because there will be a lot of wasted time in between.


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You told your wife that you don't trust her? Why would you do that? Telling your wife you don't trust her is a LB, even if it's true.

Steve Harley told me "Trust, but verify." Any spouse who has nothing to hide will welcome being checked up on. A spouse who has nothing to hide would react to being checked up on by saying "You think I'm cheating? What am I doing to make you think that? Here, my life is an open book. I am completely open. What can I do to reassure you? What can I do?"


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For those of you who have been feeding my husband that I am cheating on him, this is not the case. I respect and love myself, my husband and my children. Yes I am guilty for lack of affection and sex!! Many times you do not hear the other side.I have asked my husband on several occasions to go to counseling which he refuses and swears by marriage builders. There are reasons for my lack of affection and we have many stresses which also add. When I got home I was and am disgusted that my husband asked me why I changed my underwear this morning to go on a run?? Assuming I was meeting someone. He is more than welcome to call my friend, log my computer and phone. There is nothing to hide. My runs are a break and stress reliever from having three kids, one being a newborn. Any progress we made which has been destroyed for the next two days equals no sex. Get it!!! This is the cycle!!!

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Originally Posted by tgrace1328
For those of you who have been feeding my husband that I am cheating on him, this is not the case. I respect and love myself, my husband and my children. Yes I am guilty for lack of affection and sex!! Many times you do not hear the other side.I have asked my husband on several occasions to go to counseling which he refuses and swears by marriage builders. There are reasons for my lack of affection and we have many stresses which also add. When I got home I was and am disgusted that my husband asked me why I changed my underwear this morning to go on a run?? Assuming I was meeting someone. He is more than welcome to call my friend, log my computer and phone. There is nothing to hide. My runs are a break and stress reliever from having three kids, one being a newborn. Any progress we made which has been destroyed for the next two days equals no sex. Get it!!! This is the cycle!!!

Wonderful.

Welcome to MB. I'm so glad you are here as often (like in my situation) the MB principles and guidelines are much more easily adopted if BOTH spouses are here posting and learning together [Mrs. Wondering posts here too].

MB is WAY better than traditional marriage counseling.

Unless you choose to buy the book (which are really cheap if you get them on amazon used) MB is much cheaper than traditional marriage counseling.

You say you've wanted your husband to go to counseling for years which is an indication that he's been the reluctant spouse in the past...well, I don't think he's as reluctant about MB so this is really sounding like a win-win.

I'm so glad you aren't having an affair as rebuilding a marriage is impossible with a third person in it. You have such an advantage over many of us here that arrived after infidelity crushed our marriages. It may not be roses but it is a starting place.

Again...welcome and please share more of your side of the story.

Mr. Wondering


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tgrace, what we have been feeding him is getting you two to try and implement meeting each others ENs and getting rid of the LBs and spending some alone time together.

If you would read through this thread you would see that he is trying to become a better husband but is becoming resentful in teh marriage because he feels neglected, disrespected, and unimportant.

It seems as though you don�t feel his needs are important because they are not your needs. Yes, sexual attention and affection are needs�and they are important because he cannot go anywhere and get these needs taken care of without cheating. Essentially he is starving and you have the chance to feed him.

Saying that he won�t get sex because of this and that is using sex as a tool and a weapon.

How would you feel if he said, �you know, because of the way you acted the last two days, I�m not watching the kids so you can go on your runs or exercise� You would feel hurt and upset.

The goal here is simple. You two meet each others needs, stop irritating each other (love busters), and get in some alone time. Yes I know you have young children�most of us do. And the alone time is doable.

And, yes, we are only getting one side of the story. It would be nice if you posted here so we could get the whole story.


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Originally Posted by hilltopper
I'm in love with my family but very unhappy in my relationship with my wife and feel a huge empty hole.


This is from your husband's first post. I presume the reverse is likely pretty true as well...that being, YOU, too, also love your family but feel unhappy in your relationship with your husband and a huge empty hole.

These are complaints. Complaints in marriage are GOOD.

MB can help you fix this problem. MB is NOT counseling. It won't delve into your family of origin issues or draw out your inner child. It won't merely focus on fixing your communications problems like so many other marital programs due such that you end up being able to communicate with each other at the divorce court. It is a simply behavior program. Dr. Harley studied the behaviors and patterns of married couples that enjoyed enduring loves that lasted a lifetime. He then prescribes we learn and adopt those behaviors over the course of ONE year and see what happens. The idea is that by undertaking the actions of a loving couple will result in the couple being a loving couple.

Feelings follow action.

It's really pretty simple.

Please click on and review the "basic concepts" link at teh top of this page and out on the main marriage builders website. Give MB the chance. It's so easy and your husband is already here and somewhat familiar with it so there is no time like the present to work on rebuilding your marriage. If not for yourself or your husband...do it for your kids who deserve better than you both are giving them right now.

Mr. Wondering


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Also...with jobs and three kids (including an infant), MB is much easier to schedule. The forums and the main website with a plethora of FREE information are available 24/7.

Counseling once a week at some office is so 1985.

With MB you don't even need a babysitter.

Mr. W


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Ok so I will say some of my comments are insulting I have to admit. And sometimes there are just not appropriate times for sex and sometimes the bottom line is I'm tired from being a "boob machine' and waking up all night with the baby. I don't with hold sex from him, but if we fight it is a turn off and sex doesn't happen. I'm not into the make up sex. By the way I've only said 'hop on once and I wasn't in the mood.' And the cuddle comment was last night with a too much wine stomach ache (which he says is just an excuse)We just need to do nice things for each other and the sex will follow and I know I need to make more of an effort.
We have never been jealous of each other and definitely give each other space to go and hang out with friends. I have never questioned my husband on going out for beers and in fact I encourage it and he used to go out once or twice a week with his closest friend until he just recently moved.
For you to suggest I shouldn't be able to go on a run is inconsiderate. I make sure I go early and get things ready for the baby so I don't disturb his day or morning. Running is my own selfish time in the world to just have a clear mind.
I could go on and on for a tit for tat but that wouldn't get me anywhere. There is always another side you are not hearing as to why things are going in the wrong direction. I just didn't decide to be mean to my husband one day and continue. I love him very much and will make an effort.
I think you guys should be giving suggestions how to fix things not suggesting that affairs are going on!!!!!

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PS I started reading marriage builders and took a week off. And I only just recently asked about counseling. Our major problems in my opinion have just recently started (pretty much when the baby arrived) And the reason I asked about counseling is he is very hard to speak or argue against and I can't always put all my thoughts together or communicate them properly. I will give marriage builders a try.

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Originally Posted by tgrace1328
he used to go out once or twice a week with his closest friend until he just recently moved.

How long ago did this happen? I'm betting this has been troubling him losing a close friend he felt very connected to. Once he was gone (moved away...not totally gone per se) I bet the "dark hole" he felt in your marriage expanded for him.



Originally Posted by tgrace1328
I love him very much and will make an effort.

Awesome. I think you should start your own thread. My wife and I both posted here and it's very difficult to share a thread. The forums aren't really set up to referee your disputes. We can help YOU and we can help him. It's peer coaching...NOT peer counseling. He will have people helping/coaching him and you will have other "online friends" coaching you. With both of you here a lot of context is added but again...we are not good referees. You have to let his feelings and perceptions be his and yours yours. Very tough to do. But doing MB together made all the difference for Mrs. Wondering and I.


Originally Posted by tgrace1328
I think you guys should be giving suggestions how to fix things not suggesting that affairs are going on!!!!!

Unfortunately, most people that show up here ARE dealing with affairs and infidelity and unless and until such extramarital relationships are over and done with...complete "no contact" there is no "how to fix things". Ruling out and/or ending affairs is STEP NUMBER ONE here at MB. Again...I can't express how happy we all are for YOU and Hilltopper that there is not an affair. I wouldn't wish it on my worse enemy. Lets move on from the snooping and underwear fiasco and get down to business. Start a new thread and share your thoughts and feelings about your marriage.

Mr. W

p.s. - Happy to see you want to try MB. Have you and Hilltopper printed off and completed the Emotional Needs survey yet?

Last edited by MrWondering; 04/16/11 11:14 AM.

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Originally Posted by tgrace1328
PS I started reading marriage builders and took a week off. And I only just recently asked about counseling. Our major problems in my opinion have just recently started (pretty much when the baby arrived) And the reason I asked about counseling is he is very hard to speak or argue against and I can't always put all my thoughts together or communicate them properly. I will give marriage builders a try.
Welcome to MB, tgrace.

It would be a good idea for you to start your own thread and stay off your husband's. Posting on his thread just leads to the two of you arguing on the thread!

Please remember that people have been trying to help your H with the problems he described in your marriage. Marriage Builders is not your enemy, and it is not causing the problems in your marriage.


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No one said you shouldn't be able to go on a run. However, when the two of you are having issues scheduling quality/alone time together, that's where the emphasis should be.

And I totally get it. I do my running/exercising early in the morning before anyone is up or late at night after everyone has gone to sleep. But if my wife and I never or very rarely had any alone time together and I was out exercising, she would feel resentful and wonder why I can make time to exercise but I can't figure out time for the two of us to spend time together. The key here is to schedule time together for the two of you and then schedule everything else.

And we don't believe that this is one sided at all. Both spouses are 50% responsible for the state of the marriage. He's just as accountable as you are for meeting needs, eliminating love busters, and scheduling the alone time.


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Originally Posted by tgrace1328
Ok so I will say some of my comments are insulting I have to admit. And sometimes there are just not appropriate times for sex and sometimes the bottom line is I'm tired from being a "boob machine' and waking up all night with the baby. I don't with hold sex from him, but if we fight it is a turn off and sex doesn't happen. I'm not into the make up sex. By the way I've only said 'hop on once and I wasn't in the mood.' And the cuddle comment was last night with a too much wine stomach ache (which he says is just an excuse)We just need to do nice things for each other and the sex will follow and I know I need to make more of an effort.
We have never been jealous of each other and definitely give each other space to go and hang out with friends. I have never questioned my husband on going out for beers and in fact I encourage it and he used to go out once or twice a week with his closest friend until he just recently moved.
For you to suggest I shouldn't be able to go on a run is inconsiderate. I make sure I go early and get things ready for the baby so I don't disturb his day or morning. Running is my own selfish time in the world to just have a clear mind.
I could go on and on for a tit for tat but that wouldn't get me anywhere. There is always another side you are not hearing as to why things are going in the wrong direction. I just didn't decide to be mean to my husband one day and continue. I love him very much and will make an effort.
I think you guys should be giving suggestions how to fix things not suggesting that affairs are going on!!!!!


This board operates on the story of the one present.

If both are present, they are encouraged not to post on each other's threads.

Jealousy is a natural response to a marriage that is in a state of crisis or threat, not a problem.

Transparency, and checking on spouses is defending a marriage, not "being jealous" or "being controlling."

"Giving each other space" creates independence, which is harmful to the marriage.

You are here now, so get this; this program is about creating romantic love and an interdependent relationship.

It is not just for couples who have or are experiencing infidelity, and in those cases, may help avoid it in the future.

You two are at the tip of the slippery slope which leads to marital meltdown, and "marriage counseling" won't do much to fix it. In fact, a lot of these "counselors" empower one spouse or another into the very behavior that will DESTROY a marriage every single time.


You won't find people here encouraging, or preaching tolerance for abusive or independent behavior.

You both have some work to do.


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

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If she were enthusiastic about having sex with you, this would not be a problem. Women need 2 things to feel enthusiastic about sex, an emotional attachment to the man and the prospect of enjoyment. What has happened in your marriage is that your relationship has been given such a low priority in your lives, that you have both fallen out of love. With her lovebusters and your comments about her body, I see that spiralling downwards.

The 2 main areas I would address immediately would be 1. lovebusters and 2. spending 20+ hours a week of UA time. If you can't or won't do that, then this will never work. Period. I know its hard with little children, but many folks here manage to get in their UA time with careful planning.

Nagging your wife about sex is not the solution, though. The solution is for both of you to fall in love again.

Originally Posted by Dr Bill Harley
"First I fix the relationship, and nine times out of ten, sexual problems disappear, with or without unresolved childhood experiences. I spend very little time fixing sexual problems these days because most couples I counsel don't have sexual problems after they have learned to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement." here



And I would strongly advise your wife to get on board here, HT. I don't think she understands that she is losing her husband. And if she doesn't do something to stop this bloodbath, she is headed to divorce.

Do you hear me, grace? You think you are getting away with mistreating your husband, but you are not. He is almost at the point where he has given up. When that happens, it is VERY HARD to turn it around. Do you want to be a single woman raising all those kids and holding down a 60 hr a week job? When a wife works this hard to push her husband away, she will eventually succeed. Think on that..


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Welcome to MB, grace. We are all happy to see you!

Hill, if you have concerns about the advice you've been given on this board, please do get with Steve Harley, both you and grace. My experience between the board and SH was quite different, mainly because SH heard both mine and my H's side. I highly recommend him.


Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
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Quote
I'm definitely messed up from this forum. My marriage is infinitely worse after following the advice of some of you in here.
Hilltopper, I'll bet if you look closely you'll see that the issues in your M are no different than before. You're just starting to confront them with your wife.

Quote
I'm not gonna throw away my marriage because someone tells me that get keylogger software and to record my wife's phone calls.
How do you figure this would cost you your marriage? My H can do all of that and more. He could follow me around with a tape recorder and I wouldn't care. He could hire a PI and I would drive slow enough to keep the PI close when he's tailing me. I couldn't care less if my H wanted to confirm that his trust in me is not misplaced. Do you think your wife can say the same things?

Quote
The problem is your own experiences taint the advice that you give. I went from trusting my wife 100% to accusing her of cheating within a month of being here? You can be offended if you want, I don't give a crap.
No offense taken, Hilltopper. And yes, my experiences absolutely taint my consciousness now. Thank God! I'll never go back to the blind way things were before.

You sound exhausted and overwhelmed, Hilltopper. I'm sorry to hear that. Take a breather.


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Originally Posted by tgrace1328
For those of you who have been feeding my husband that I am cheating on him, this is not the case. I respect and love myself, my husband and my children. Yes I am guilty for lack of affection and sex!! Many times you do not hear the other side.I have asked my husband on several occasions to go to counseling which he refuses and swears by marriage builders. There are reasons for my lack of affection and we have many stresses which also add. When I got home I was and am disgusted that my husband asked me why I changed my underwear this morning to go on a run?? Assuming I was meeting someone. He is more than welcome to call my friend, log my computer and phone. There is nothing to hide. My runs are a break and stress reliever from having three kids, one being a newborn. Any progress we made which has been destroyed for the next two days equals no sex. Get it!!! This is the cycle!!!
Welcome, tgrace - good to see you here! Would you consider starting your own thread? It's usually better for us to interact with the two of you separately. And you're not having an affair! Excellent! Would you say that you would be interested in learning about the tools on this site that will help you have a fantastic, passionate marriage?

I'll have to go back and re-read Hill's beginning posts, because I'm missing the part about you running. Is this an issue for him? Do you run alone? With a group? I ask because I am a runner, too. I run by myself whenever I can fit it in to our day. I just ran yesterday after work - my H had a work function, so I had a few hours before he got home. So I'm sure you'll appreciate that I threw those running shoes on the second I got in the door! smile


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tgrace, I went back and scanned through about 6 pages of posts, and I'm not seeing where anyone thinks you're having an affair. Someone may have suggested it at some point, because unfortunately it is a common thing to see here. We'll ask that pretty early in as a way of tailoring our responses to the poster.

I DID see a lot of disconnect between the two of you - not a tough thing to resolve. I noticed that you said you would give MB a try - excellent! I would suggest you start your own thread and give us your marital story as you see it.

And by the way - we are volunteers here. You're going to see a lot of people encouraging you to post here and read Dr. Harley's books. This info is priceless and has saved and renewed countless marriages. We get nothing from this but a good feeling if we can pay it forward and help someone else do the same. Just letting you know that up front - some new posters assume we're employed by Marriage Builders and get paid to be here. Nope. smile


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Thank you Marriage Builders!

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