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Dazed, I also felt that there was no way to go back to my marriage.

Here are some of the thoughts you need to overcome in her mind:
Plan A tips....
[color:"purple"]**That she will have to live with the affair in her face forever. That you will bring it up in years to come.[/color]

[color:"green"]**That she will always be seen as the bad guy. This one in particular was a tough one for me. I know I did more than my share our entire marriage, and then because of how I acted at the end -- everyone would view him as the victim, and me as the evil b****.[/color]

[color:"purple"]**That you have the moral upper hand. It really bugged me that after years of making sure my kids went to Sunday School and sitting in church all alone, while he watched Football -- that again, he's the good one and I'm the sinner.[/color]

[color:"green"]**That family functions and gatherings would be uncomfortable.[/color]

This is why Steve is encouraging you to apologize. You also need to find a way to acknowledge that you've BOTH made mistakes and that you are willing to enter a new relationship with her on EQUAL footing.

Keep a positive, calm approach.

My XBS's anger scared me.
My XBS's depression made me run.
When he was calm and reasonable -- I was more able to interact with him.

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Lsiten to Lexxxy on this! While we BSs have seen the fog from the outside, she knows what it is like on the inside.

Those are great issues that you will have to help your wife overcome.

Remember, your WW is this immoral alien stuck with a loser. Your wife, on the otherhand, is someone deserving great respect and grace.

You are going to have to show her how she will be treated as your wife, if she is to ever to kick the alien out of her body and take over herself again.

In His arms.


Standing in His Presence

FBS (me) (48)
FWW (41)
Married April 1993...
4 kids (19(B), 17(G), 14(B), 4(B))
Blessed by God more than I deserve
"If Jesus is your co-pilot...you need to change seats!"

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JP..
Thanks for the spelling lesson... funny... I use that name almost very day too.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> And in your text the spellng is...not offessive (offensive I believe you meant)

[color:"red"] I defer only to somebody with more experience than myself...and more time in dealing with the specific issues at hand....whether medical, or here with mental/marriage issues.
[/color]
OK JP... since you choose to be smug with me.... you need to defer to me since I have been here much longer and am in constant contact with LOSTVA someone who did a LONG LONG successful Plan "A" and has "recovered" her marriage....from LOSTVA's
experience" and Harley "expertise" I get my views.

Once again I didn't attack you or anyone... I got frustrated and tried to give the same advice (with a little more color...just a little) that you and others give.....

JP.... YOU SAY.....
I will side with only a professional...

HARLEY TELLS DAZED....
Do not sign and agree with anything until the 11 O'clock hour. Last minute. Do not cause delays, just don't hurry and use all the time given.....

SO YOU SAY.........

You should however, counterfile against her, claiming adultery...this stalls for time...what you want is time if a plan A is what you choose to do. Plus it helps clear away the fog...
Explain this to me again JP.... HOW is this....
" I will side with only a professional..."

Guys.... can we do this.... again we ALL want DAZED to succeed in saving his Marriage right?

Now if Steve H. says Plan "A" can we support DAZED in a PLAN "A" and stick to it until DAZED tells us his love is dying.... OR.... Steve H. says he needs to do a Plan "B"

That means.. PUMPING HIM UP when he's down.... Showing him what GOOD things are happening......and NOT dwelling on the BAD that WILL happen that we KNOW will happen...

We used to have a saying here...
"Expect the best... prepare for the worst"

DAZED IMHO is an EXTRAORDINARILY strong man... (No reaction or angry out bursts after those horrible text messages!! WHEW!! They even made ME mad!!)

He can do this with our help.....Harley told him today...
"Continue Plan A and be consistent in my change. Apologize every time she talks about what I did and plead ignorance. Demonstrate the new me and not roll into traps that lead to anger and judgment. Because she will need to feel its okay to come back when it crumbles with him. "

I think Harley would have us in a Plan "A" UNTIL they came home IF WE WERE STRONG ENOUGH...but most aren't.... I think DAZED is....

Let's just support what Harley told him to do and what DAZED WANTS to do to save his Marriage.....and not confuse him....

AND DAZED.,.... you're talking like she's moved out already...she hasn't <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

You're getting some good advice here... don't talk about OM.... Take a little break.... you're tired.... don't do ANYTHING for a night.... relax and rest.... you are doing great!! (Harley said so!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> )

Save your strenght.... you're gonna do this!!! And when all is over.... you'll be AMAZED that you did it!!

GOD BLESS......FRANK

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Lexxxy,
GREAT INSITE!! That is the kind of wisdom he needs... BRILLIANT!!

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Quote
**That she will have to live with the affair in her face forever. That you will bring it up in years to come.
**That she will always be seen as the bad guy. This one in particular was a tough one for me. I know I did more than my share our entire marriage, and then because of how I acted at the end -- everyone would view him as the victim, and me as the evil b****.
**That you have the moral upper hand. It really bugged me that after years of making sure my kids went to Sunday School and sitting in church all alone, while he watched Football -- that again, he's the good one and I'm the sinner.
**That family functions and gatherings would be uncomfortable.

This is why Steve is encouraging you to apologize. You also need to find a way to acknowledge that you've BOTH made mistakes and that you are willing to enter a new relationship with her on EQUAL footing.

Keep a positive, calm approach.

My XBS's anger scared me.
My XBS's depression made me run.
When he was calm and reasonable -- I was more able to interact with him.

Lexxy that was extremely insightful and I think that is what my WW is currently struggling with since she suggests similar comments.

Besides apologizing to a WS for your past neglect, how do yoiu reassure a WS that the fears you state can be overcome?

I'm learning so much...thanks everyone


Married 10 years, Legally Seperated Aug 2,2006
1 year of Plan A followed by 1 year of Plan B...
...now stepping towards recovery?????
BH 37(me), WW 35, DB 7 & DD 5
My Story
My struggle with an EA
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OK -- to add to those thoughts with some actions.

[color:"purple"] **That she will have to live with the affair in her face forever. That you will bring it up in years to come.[/color]
Be willing to stop talking about her affair -- RIGHT NOW. (now that will change when you hit recovery, but by then she will be remorseful and ready to make amends. Then you can hash it all out. Right now it does nothing for you.) Have a smile on your face, make every interaction with her positive. Don't talk divorce, don't trash OM. Hold your head high -- keep saying you know everything will turn out right in the end.

[color:"green"] **That she will always be seen as the bad guy. This one in particular was a tough one for me. I know I did more than my share our entire marriage, and then because of how I acted at the end -- everyone would view him as the victim, and me as the evil b****.[/color] Be openly supportive of her in any situation with friends or family. Praise her as a person. She is wonderful, she is great, admire her. You know darn well OM is giving her these strokes.

[color:"purple"] **That you have the moral upper hand. It really bugged me that after years of making sure my kids went to Sunday School and sitting in church all alone, while he watched Football -- that again, he's the good one and I'm the sinner.[/color] Recognize her for being a good mother in the past. (you need to be careful here with custody proceedings going on. You don't want to commend her current actions.) Right now the loss of her daughters respect must be hurting her deeply. Mourn with her. But let her know that part of the decision she is making will irreparably damage her role as Mom. Try to remind her of what the future could be -- the things she may miss out on with daughter -- not being there for bra-shopping, getting her period, first boyfriends, etc. The approach I would take is that you are worried about handling that alone, that you support girls needing mom sometimes.

Also, don't go overboard on faith. Talking about your faith or prayers etc might be especially painful for her because she is probably experiencing a loss of faith. Its impossible to remain religous and be involved openly in an affair. So she's going to give up her faith at least temporarily. If you mention it, talk about it -- well, how do I say this? She's going to blame you for losing her relationship with God. If you would have been a decent husband she wouldn't have fallen into this mess. Its your fault. (I KNOW -- CRAZY)

[color:"green"] **That family functions and gatherings would be uncomfortable. [/color] If at all possible, have your family reach out to her lovingly. I was always really bothered that I had been a family member for 20 years and my husbands family turned on me in a second. Not one single person ever called me, reached out to me, asked if they could help us. Part of the "leaving" decision is also to leave extended family. Its hard. I loved all my little neices and nephews. It tore my heart to think about not being around to see them grow up. Once the whole family turned their backs on me -- it was way easier to walk away. If ANYONE would have extended a hand to me, it would have meant a lot.

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Lexxxy- Your adivice is great. I have promised WW that I would never judge her. That is God's job. Also, promised to put this all behind us and never mention things to punish or hurt, ever.

Here is my biggest challange:
How do I present myself as attractive to her?
1) How do I not show pain and hurt in front of her when she is hating on me.
2) How do I make my home and self look inviting with all this swurling around me and her.
This part is where OM is kicking my _ss.
She sees me as a cling on. I wont let go of her. She thinks I'm hurting by what she is doing. She is constantly thinking I'm depressed and might kill myself. She thinks my efforts to save this mess is not wanting to face reality and I can't stand on my own. She sees me at a sad hurt person because of trying to save our marriage, as a needy cling on.
OKAY---- Marriage builders I want to be made...
How do I spin this around. To be confident, funny, inviting, fresh, and attractive person?

It is fun and exciting with him. Its painful guilt and old hat with me.
Then when she will not go anywhere in public with me together. I mean not even eat. I invited her last night to go to another city with daughter to a swim meet. (doudt she will go.
There is only so much I can do a couple hours an evening at home. If I'm gone for a minute she leaves for or calls OM. Last night I made a romantic setting. Had plans on a quite evening alone, soft music, candle light, no kid, refreshments, and snacks. She shows up 1-1/2 hours late from OM's apartment. Things still go well and she ruins it all by texting OM two love notes. After I just spent two hours with her breaking my back to be nice, fun, playful and loving. She even went along with it.
I gave her a new YMCA membership card and asked her to go with me. She won't even take the card. She used to love going there.
She is just tring to suffocate all my efforts. She is suppose to be home tonight at 6PM. Tells me to finish our talk. I can assure you her first question will be did you sign.
Its so hard. I love this woman but, lets face it. She thinks I'm a bad guy for not just letting her go and agreeing with her for this _hit. When I disagree to talk divorce, she just gets mad. Then you can guess how the rest of the evening goes. Then if I plan an event for us, she says you and daughter go. The second we leave shes headed for OM's.
Okay- She wants to sell me on some lame _ss idea of hers to end this battle.
She says she is getting her own place, not OM's. She will take the time frame of the divorce to figure out what she wants to do. This is nuts. I said, so what is the communication and contact rules? She gave me a dumb look. I said, okay are you going to continue to see me and talk to me or ignore me? You just said last night you can't live alone. Are you going to be living alone in this apartment? She says this way daughter is not around him. I said, you will have to help me understand how you are going to figure things out and what the rules are going to be. She says well talk after work.
My bet is OM will rent her an apartment for the duration of the divorce just so she looks good in court. She will be getting it everynight from him when daughter is not there and or when she is sleeping. WW has never slept a night in a house alone. EVER. How could she start now.
I see this as another trap to make me think she is tring when its all ment to get away and look like a good girl while OM get his piece and can go home when he's done. All the while I set at home all alone and also expected to send over daughter. I see her apartment deal as nothing more than a front for a sick affair to continue and make me think its all good. Win, win deal. Remember OM don't like kids anyway. This way the kid is not a hassle, and he can come get it and go with out doing anything.
I bet this talk at 6PM will make me look good when I say no way.
I'm sure she is going to get the front any way. She is justing playing the game for court and make me think she is really tring.
My thoughts are, she stays home to figure this out.
I wish she would go for no contact. But, she gets mad when I ask.
OM would be so mad if she stayed her. I know she tells him everything that happens. So its so hard to get anywhere with this. Two against me.

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Hi, Dazed.

My name is Lori. I've been a member of MB for a long time, though I rarely stop in anymore. I'm married to the love of my life, a man named Robert who I absolutely adore, admire, respect and trust completely. Years ago, shortly after my dad was killed, Robert had an affair, left me and our daughter and began to plan a life with a girl my MB buddies nicknamed PT who was 20 years my junior. They shared bank accounts, credit cards, etc and he was seeing a lawyer to start adoption proceedings for HER daughter once our divorce was final. He was gone for more than 7 months. I can't even remember the dates - like d-day, etc anymore. I do, however, remember how hard it is and how much you are hurting right now. That's why I'm here.

There can be light at the end of this tunnel.

Lexxxy, You're terrific. Dazed, listen to her and to Harley.

I stopped in at the request of a friend, but, for once in my life, I won't say much unless asked. (Anyone who knows me here will laugh at that one!)

But, here's the deal. Plan A works and works well. Plan B is to protect you and to prepare you for the eventuality of divorce. See SAA. And, Darlin', it ain't over 'til it's over. You have an amazing amount of power here and more strength than you realize and you have to learn to use it. Your marriage may or may not be over b/c she's filing for divorce. It's DEFINITELY over when YOU decide it's time for divorce.

The most important thing? If you truly want the marriage you were meant to have, you have to be consistant. No "I was good until.....and I lost control". No "It was hard". Of course it was hard. It's supposed to be hard. She's supposed to lie. She's supposed to be disrespectful. She's supposed to not trust you. Everything she's doing is exactly what WS's DO. It doesn't really count to do a good Plan A as long as there's nothing there to test you, now does it? You're expecting your wife to do the hard work and stay away from someone who makes her feel good about herself - probably the only person who makes her feel good right now (especially since I promise you she feels TERRIBLE about herself at the moment). The only way she'll know she's truly safe with you is if you prove it over time without a slip-up. Just like the only way you'll know you can trust her again is by HER proving to you over time without a slip-up. It works both ways.

Harley's a professional and he's great. Listen to him. Read, read, read. I found it was easier once I knew what to expect. Then, for some reason, I was prepared and it was easier not to react. And you can't react.

If I can help you through this in any way, just let me know. There are success stories out here. And, for the record, if I knew then what I know now? I'd still work for my marriage. I'm glad I did.

Hang in there. You're stronger than you think.

Lori


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Dazed,
Listen to Lori. I have already sung her praises once to you and will do it again. She knows how to do this stuff...and I do remember her having her own share of nay sayers back in the day, but she stood her ground and DID what needed done. And she is correct...I (or we) are a success story with a lot of credit due her. If you want good solid advice from a pro, ask lostva.

If you are still here..hi lori..VF here

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Your instincts are dead-on.

She's trying to put on a good front. She is telling you a fairy tale about being on her own "to figure things out."
She's just trying to get you to play nice.

More later....

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I think Harley would have us in a Plan "A" UNTIL they came home IF WE WERE STRONG ENOUGH...

Frank:

That post above explains alot to me about your perspective on things. I do believe that you "believe" this and explains alot of why you are so vehement with your posts that go against what you say are the "Principals".

You did successfuly recover a marriage and you have been here 5 years longer than me. I never recovered a marriage...but I recovered myself....not the same, but just the same to me.

You have given me the impetus again to withdraw from this thread (yet again <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />), as clearly there are more experienced people who should be providing "adjunctive" support to Dazed......You are numero uno, I will grant you that. You do mean so well.

I will try once again to go back to my room and defer to those with more "experience" here and board senioroty: rolleyes:

Sounds good.

Lemonman <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Last edited by lemonman; 11/10/05 05:40 PM.

Some people just don't get it, they don't get it that they don't get it.

I had the right to remain silent.......but I didn't have the ability.
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Lemonman, recovering ourselves is one of the biggest and most important challenges we all have had here. Actually, I think it's one of the ones we struggle with the most. Whenever we've accomplished that, I think we've done a heckuva job!

It's ok for all of us to have differing opinions. That's how I learned the most. And "age", whether real age or board age, has nothing to do with how much we can teach each other. Nothing wrong with respectfully disagreeing with each other! Just my opinion, but I don't think you should leave and I hope my appearing here didn't make you feel like you should. I think you have a lot to offer to Dazed and others who are reading as well.

dancinggrosey - Hi, Honey! Where DID you get that name???? How's everything going these days? Catch me up if you get a chance; my email's the same and is in my profile. It's good to hear from you.

Sorry to hijack your thread, Dazed.

Lori


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Quote:OK JP... since you choose to be smug with me.... you need to defer to me since I have been here much longer and am in constant contact with LOSTVA someone who did a LONG LONG successful Plan "A" and has "recovered" her marriage....from LOSTVA's
experience" and Harley "expertise" I get my views.

Me: WEll once again you seem to think that because I am divorced my opinions are well....maybe one metaphor here you can choose? I defer to those I feel are more qualified than I and are professionals in the field. Not a slur against myself, you or anybody on this board...when I need any sort of help ie medical or professional..I go to the best. When I say defer to a professional, I mean a professional ie...Harleys or a MB coach...

Oh, I am also in constant contact with several MB'ers who are recovery champs! I count our reverse babble queen and MB champ..who defeated an extremely toxic ow (psycho babble rabbit) and healed her wonderful family...Orchid. Maybe we should all defer to her? lmao. Her wit and tact has helped many a BS deal with the fog. Plus she follows MB to a T! But in the end, I think who I associate with on line and offline is nothing to do with this thread...
That being said, I will not defer to you... ____________________________________________
Once again I didn't attack you or anyone... I got frustrated and tried to give the same advice (with a little more color...just a little) that you and others give.....

Me: I would never say such things as you said them. Not at all. If you want to say I am smug....well let's just say your words "play nice" were not nice at all...you've insulted me and I don't "play nice" after that at all. I am respectful and decent...but I will not blast somebody here if they are a recovery success and living life on top of their game...whether married or divorced...sometimes recovery is not going to be the end result...even after great attempts and bravery and strength. That is the truth.

Nuff said about secondary parties in this thread...

Let's get back to Dazed's business at hand!
And in the end, I want this gentleman to revive his marriage...if plan A requires more time, a CONTESTED divorce can accomplish it...and also cast the OM in quite a negative light showing his TRUE colors...and help WW leave fog faster. If he is nothing but loving and kind to WW, following CARROT AND STICK of plan A and HARLEY ADVICE, he is going to do the best he can do period. He will be a stark contrast to the emerging truths about the OM and his life...get PI...get lawyer to find out things from OM and past (job...any behavioral problems? xw and his abuse of her?)..Like a previous WW said above, it was when she saw how she lost her kids that she abruptly turned around, made a counseling appointment, and found her way back home! If you have attorneys let Ww know that you didn't do this..it is about protecting your family and even ww the whole time, she will begin to see thru how ugly OM is on inside. Get mad at OM instead of you? You must show her you are only going to protect your daughter thru this and that you still love her and want your M to survive.

Dazed, you can do this! Please listen to the two former WW's here. See how you can even when filing work things to the FAMILY advantage. Carrot and stick. Memorize carrot and stick.

By the way, the info gathered from a PI and from XW of OM for divorce proceedings can be considered "exposure" of the biggest kind! Pulling his dark secrets out from the shadows where the scumbucket resides...exposure is a key component of plan a!

Can somebody here repaste
"carrot and stick" of plan A here for our friend?

I am exhausted...worked almost 10 hrs today.

Oh...since this is time consuming...I am gonna post to dazed...no other "post hijacks" or posting to secondary parties about their words aside from the situation which is primary and at hand.


me:37 BS; s:7; xh:38; OW:26;eloped w/OW 1 wk after D: 12/29/03. OC born 3/17/04. Happy! Blessed to be the mother of a wonderful son..great profession..Life's good!
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It's ok for all of us to have differing opinions. That's how I learned the most. And "age", whether real age or board age, has nothing to do with how much we can teach each other. Nothing wrong with respectfully disagreeing with each other! Just my opinion, but I don't think you should leave and I hope my appearing here didn't make you feel like you should.

LOL...Lori, I am not going anywhere, but just going to ***try*** and cease giving an "opine" on this situation. I am reminded and humbled to remember that what may be a terrible thing for me, and something that I could never do and allow to happen to myself and life, may be the most important thing to someone's else's life.

I forget that "concept" often. I still struggle with it, but I am getting a little better.

I sometimes forget that we are different, and what is so clearly "right" for me, may be oh so "wrong" for someone else.

I still lack the "goodness" to encourage someone on a path that I truly believe to be so "toxic"....Yes, admittedly selfish (and one of the reasons it is better I stop posting to Dazed), and something I am "working" to improve on.

I guess I lack the "compassion" to find hope when all I see is extreme dysfunction. But that is my problem.

I think in contrast, your post and your success is what was exactly needed in this situation. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Lem <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Last edited by lemonman; 11/10/05 06:28 PM.

Some people just don't get it, they don't get it that they don't get it.

I had the right to remain silent.......but I didn't have the ability.
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Threadjack for just a moment....

Lemonman, I always love when you are on the board as you add a whole lot of levity and logic that the folks who are in the middle of Plan A or Plan B cannot see. I wish you had been around when my now XH and I were traveling up and down the rollercoaster. I can now see that I could have Plan A'd or Plan B'd until the day I died and it would not have made one iota of a difference. I should have kicked him to the curb and forced him to deal with the consequences of his actions the day I found out about OW. It took a divorce, living with the OW for almost a year and her subsequent looking for greener pastures for him to wake up. Although we have not reconciled, he now readily admits that the fog does, indeed, exist and that everything I said about OW is true - and then some. He also makes clear that, even with the best Plan A in the world, it would not have made a difference...I could have hung the moon, the sun and the stars and I still would have been the "bad guy." Why do I say all of this? Because a one size fits all approach to surviving an A is not always the answer and you, Lemonman, realize that and approach all of this from that perspective.

Regards,

BB

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DAZED,
Just want to make sure YOU understand that the "nasty" post I posted was just me being sarcastic....
Dazed...you KNOW I was being sarcastic right??
I just got frustrated with all the Plan "B" "Kick her out" talk.... trying to make them see how they sounded.. (to me) FRANK

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Hey Dazed....

Lots has happened....good luck with Plan A...I think you are doing great...

Best to you...you got some great advice today...amazing stuff!

Here is the Carrot and Stick of Plan A...from Pepperband!


*********************************************************
The Carrot and the Stick of Plan A

The carrot of Plan A


Meeting your wandering spouse's emotional needs.

Making "home" a warm and inviting place to be.

Placing emphasis on what has worked in the marriage.

Showing consistent self improvement in areas where previously lacking.

Stop lovebusting behaviors.

Communicating with a calm reassuring voice and relaxed body language, even in the center of a verbal storm created by the infidel.

Becoming the person any reasonable spouse would want to come home to.

Remaining open to the possibility of recovery.

Offering forgiveness and understanding.



The stick of Plan A


Exposing adultery where it matters most. Exposure that takes the form of a swift and sudden unexpected tsunami of truth.

Not appologizing for exposure or speaking the truth in a kind yet direct way.

Directly communicating the hurt and devastation that the affair has caused.

Not accepting blame for the infidel's choice to become adulterous.

Let the consequences of adultery and infidelity fall freely upon the heads of the adulterous.

Establishing boundaries that disallow the affair to effect children of the marriage, financal security of the marriage, and otherwise ruin innocent bystanders.

Standing up to infidelity as a beast that must be slayed for the good of the family.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Plan A is both a *carrot* and a *stick*.


Me: 30 WH: 29 WH: left May 8th, 2005 Now: no contact with WH since 07/02/2006 Ark on Plan A plan a tips and musings...get grounded here betrayed spouses...............JUST BE STILL...........
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It's 2AM and don't know what to do right now.

I feel its all over. I feel he has one. He has complete control over her.


WW came home late. Wanted to review divorce papers. I tried to suggest the option of trying. She would here no of it. Finally after almost 30 minutes, just about when I ready to lose my temper. She aknowledged that I was not making her stay and was only showing her she could.
She agains said your so good now. It makes me so mad that now you are everything I wanted. Part of me wants to stay with you so bad. I do care about you, love daughter, our home, and want to quit my job and come home to you. The other part of me can let that happen. It just sucks because I gave up on you and and and and.... I said, gave your heart to another. She says, yes.... Because of that I can't come home now. I do feel inside its wrong to do this to you. I do try to justify it with all the times you left me alone and scared.
I just cant keep this up any longer. Hurting everyone. I hate coming here and facing this. Its all in my head and every night its so painful to be here and not relaxing at all. I said, if you would have just said, let's try. All the stress and pressur goes away. We could start over.
She said, I just can't now.

I believe she is moved on. Steve said the same thing. That is why she is so angry with me about our past and talk about the future. SHE MOVED ON in her mind a long time ago. That is when what was a good mother and wife made the choice to allow another man into her life. She gave up on me. Now at the last minute before she left, I come to her and show her everything she wanted. She resents for it now. When she gave up, she did not think in a million years you could change. When you did, she went into shock.

God she is so screwed up over this guy.
She is gone.......
She can not even stay here no more. After talking about good memories or us she cried for awhile. Seen went into her make up room and packed up.
I said, you are going now.. She said I have to. I wish I could stay but I can't.
Can I take daughter and stay in a hotel with her? I said just stay in her room. I can't with tears running.
At 9PM she left with daughter. Okay, after she left I thought about it. Bad idea.. I should have just said you stay or nothing.
I here the dog bark at 11PM go down to see daughter laying on the couch and no sign of WW. She backed out on the hotel plan and dumped daughter off. Apparently otherman would not allow wife to have one dam night with her. I bet he needed her in his bed tonight so ****** with daughter. This is so sick.... I do believe in my heart that wife or WW would not have done this with out his twisting. He just needed her and daughter got in the way again. WW again put him in front of our daughter.

Okay-- What do I do. I want to go over to OM's apartment and take a picture of her car parked there to prove she just once again _hit on daughter just to appease this self serving perverted control freak.

What do you think...

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I drove by but her car was not parked out side. Probably hidden some where else.

This all seems so hopeless to me now. You all have really helped me. I do see both sides of what I could have done or could do. Plan A or B. I see how both could have worked. I choose plan A because just like Steve H said, I needed to show her what it could be like. I have tried so very hard but I never realized how much under his control she has been and for how long.
Peachy's take is she is a master manipulator. I think she has manipulated like all WS do. However I think she has been serving OM and doing what ever he wanted to make him happy for so long that I just could not get through. He grip is so very tight on her. She likes the feel of it. That is what I did not see.
Here is my thoughts based on what I have seen and what she has told me about him and me.
I gave her all the freedom in the world. No limits. I did not make her report to me other than just asking where she was or when. What I though any human would want.
She associates freedom with loneliness. The freedom I gave her now represents being alone and not cared for.
Being under his control makes her feel cared for. It takes attention to hold someone under there thumb. She likes the feel of that attention. She said, he wants all my time. He wants to know everything I'm doing. He is interested in me. He makes me feel wanted by wanting all my time. She said, it feels nice to have someone give me direction, I know there at least there for me and show interest in me. I did not feel any of this with you. You just did not care about anything...

So this is why I feel its done. He will not allow her to come up for air, and she don't want to.
How do I stand a chance now?
She is moving out into a female co-workers second house. This is the front for daughter. I believe OM will not let her spend another night in this house. She obviously is more than ready to appease him not me.
She can't recieve email at work no longer with out it being pre-read by the owner. She will not go out in public with me and now she can't come home.
At this point I will have very very little private contact with her. I'm sure that isolation is just what OM wants and she is willing to serve.
I still can not believe this all happened. I told her tonight about the time we walked home from school together and held hands at 12 years old. Our first kiss in the public library while hidding in the back at 16. The last kiss she offered to me was March 1st while she sat on my lap and we looked for cars on ebay. The last meal she ate with me in public as at a KFC July 23rd and she did not want to go.
I just never really new how tight OM's grip was until now. She actually likes being told what to do.
The big question becomes.....How long will she continue to see his contol as love? Even if he is abusive and a sadist in bed. If she feels the need for attention and will take any way he wants to give it, then... She will never leave him.
I'm so low right now....

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Take a deep breath. And another.

I remember. Robert walked out on me the night after my birthday. He told me that I had no idea how many times, when I was out shopping, etc, he wished I had died in an accident so that he could be released from "these pits of ******". He moved into a house an hour away that he had rented for him and PT the month before. She and her wee one were already there. They had already opened joint checking and savings accounts. They had already started working on plans for their dream house. They transferred the title of the car he took to both their names. They had seen a lawyer twice about his adopting the baby. Folks here will remember that he refused to give me his address or phone number and he worked in the field, so the only way I had to contact him (which I did only three times in 4 months, btw) was to call his parents and ask his dad to take a note to his work. He called me about 3 times in that period. That was my only opportunity to implement Plan A for a while.

Your wife is not herself. She is afraid, more afraid than you can imagine. She is a shell of a person and she doesn't know what to do, who to believe, where to turn. Why should she trust anyone? She can't even trust herself and she knows it. She is hurting. A pain we cannot begin to comprehend and every decision she makes comes from a misguided attempt to end that pain. Yes, she is manipulating. They all manipulate. They all lie, they all make terrible judgement calls and they all hurt the people they loved the most. I cannot imagine the pain that would make someone who was good and decent and loving betray the ones they love, themselves and everything they've ever believed in.

I'm not here to give you advice. You have a lot of people here that are giving you very good advice, each from different points of view and all are worth considering. Which direction you should take depends entirely on you. If you're anything at all like me, it'll be a combination of a lot of it. You are closest to this situation. You know her the best. The person you knew and loved is still in there - somewhere - and that's the person you know. Will she awaken? Yup. Most assuredly. In time? No one knows. You're only a couple of months into this and that's a short time to expect any positive changes at all. It doesn't work like that. Nothing does. It's more like taming and calming a wild and abused animal. It seems like nothing is really working for a long time, when, in reality, EVERYTHING, every word, every action is making a small impression. It just seems to show all at once. In fact, im my case and a few others I remember, there seemed to be a backlash as our WS's realized that they were waffling inside. I know I found out that when Robert got more confused and conflicted, more interested in me and our life, he reacted by taking steps to make his "new life" more permanent - opening a new joint account for them, taking her to "our" doctor, to "our" Christmas tree lot, in fact, proposing to her officially. He was fighting it all.

I just wanted to tell you that you are not alone. I remember when I first posted here and Bozo's Deb told me to calm down, I'd get better, this, too will pass and there were things I could do to take care of myself, my daughter and perhaps my marriage. I thought she was crazy. There was no way she understood that this was over, there was no hope, the pain would never stop and I wasn't nearly strong enough. There was no way she ever hurt like I was hurting.

I was wrong. (That happens a lot! LOL)

Hold on to yourself. You don't have to make every decision today. You don't have to do everything today. You just have to make yourself strong, give yourself time to take care of yourself and breathe and let some of the rawness pass. You cannot control her, even though you can give her something new to react to. All you can do is decide what you want for today only, what you are going to do for today only and how you can best take care of yourself and your daughter, for today. Every day you'll get stronger. Every day you can make your own choices and decisions and your life WILL get better. You're not dealing with this forever, you're dealing with it today. Continue counselling with Harley, if possible; he can help you through.

For the record, in case anyone doubted, I'm no expert. I'm just one of many success stories here, some of whom have recovered marriages, some who haven't. That's not a necessary requirement to be a success. I only came by b/c I'm past this stuff and I wanted to offer one perspective from the other side when things aren't raw anymore, to let you know that you can recover, no matter what happens with your marriage.

My best to you. Take care of yourself.


-Lori
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