facts:
no NC LETTER WRITTEN
she is STILL IN CONTACT W/OM
affair is most likely underground or contact is underground
refusal to get law involved by ww
om getting angrier and angrier
still unrest in household
unsafe for dd w/guy out there doing drivebys' and stalking

but here's the deal...

everybody here is so about protecting the family...when it's the WW who is REFUSING TO PROTECT HER OWN FAMILY BY ENDING THE AFFAIR AND DOING THE RIGHT THINGS.

if this man is to finally "get it" she has to tell him it's over...

I agree w/other poster. this woman has not yet ended the relationship. she's way too in over her head to do it. it's gonna take either yet another painful and dramatic d day or else somebody's gonna get hurt before she wakes up...if she does.

I still think this woman is foggy like mad.

and I believe she is indeed still talking and sending signals to om that she wants their relationship or he'd just blow up and get over it.

yes, violence can happen. it sure can.

and once again, I worry for the dd. she's still seeing the drama...you cannot say dazed that you don't speak of all this stuff on a daily basis. I am sick worried that either some om is gonna go "postal" on your house, family...and I worry that your dd is gonna be so hurt by all of this it's unimaginable.

ww SHOULD AGREE TO NC IF SHE WANTS TO BE A WIFE AT ALL.

if not, she's being passive aggressive to both men involved and ONE WILL GO OVER THE EDGE...part of her fog...she actually as I fear, might like having the thought of two men fighting over her. sick I know.

she is NOT A VICTIM.

get it?

SHE IS CONTINUING THE CONTACT...THUS AFFAIR CONTINUES..if she WANTS OUT...SHE CAN TAKE THE STAND TO DO IT...SEND NC LETTER...BE OPEN AND COMPLETELY HONEST ABOUT ALL HOURS AND WHEREABOUTS..GO TO COUNSELING...AND SHOW REMORSE.

REMORSE. REAL REMORSE..NOT FAKE NON REPENTANT DO WHAT I CAN TO KEEP JUDGE OFF MY BACK FALSE RECOVERY REMORSE.

Contact Continues---
1) She still has OM's cell phone with her.
2) She is still talking to him when ever he calls.
3) She is still seeing him.
4) She paid another months rent on her apartment.
5) Has made no effort to go no contact, or protect the family what so ever.
Only informed him of how close he is to going to jail by stalking the family home.
OM now tells her that he is going to put me in jail and is setting traps if I come over to his place.

Peach is right about her being in over her head. Exactly right...
She is still stringing along OM. I seen a text message of his asking her to "please don't hurt me again"...
God only knows what she told him, for him to reply with that statement.

After everything OM has done, she still thinks of him as an option for happiness... I just can't believe it...
She still talks about him like he is her savior.
She bought the book "confusing love with obsession". I thought this was great so she could realize that does not have real love for her as a person. Now I think she is only reading the damn thing to see if she can fix him...
She made the comment to me last week while reading the book; "hey dazed". Do you think he ex-wife made him the way he is. The book says that it is there childhood that does that to them but he had a great family and childhood. I think he was only damaged by his ex-wife."
Right then I knew she was looking for ways to justify his insanity and look for ways to fix him.
She tells me that she told him that he was treating her like his ex-wife treated him. So, right there says. 1) She is still talking to him daily. 2) She is trying to fix there relationship, not ours...

This all makes me sick... She thinks my love is not real and his is....
She said just this morning... Dazed, when will it become clear to me? When will I know?
What if I choose to not be here?

She made huge love withdrawls from me this week end... It was the worst week end yet.... The things she said to me was so bad that I got physically sick once.
It seems like she is just trying to break my heart so I will push her away.
I think she believes if I tell her off and push her away she will have no guilt about destroying our family and breaking of my heart.

There are so many levels of wrong here I just get sick thinking about it...
How can OP live with themselves for what they do?
This OM has......
I just can't ever imagine telling another mans wife--
I love you...
You belong to me now...
Leave you kid and husband.
Your husband should die...
Demand she leave her family....
Never talk to your husband again...
Never sleep in the bed you and your husband did...
Never let your husband touch you...
I will love you forever
I will kill myself if you are not with me
We are soulmates and ment to be together forever
I will love your daughter and be her best friend
You are a murder for having an abortion in highschool
Your husband is a murder
You are nothing but a cheat... Because of you I left my wife, even though we were not dating yet... I just knew you were my soul mate..
You are nothing but a liar..
I only act this way for your own good...
I only did that for your own good...
You can't think on your own and I must do all the thinking for you....
You better be out of your family home by such and such time or I will never see you again and you will have missed you only chance to be happy...
You will only cheat again if you stay with your husband because he don't know how to love you like I can.
I will treat you like a real woman in bed... Not like you rapist husband...
etc...etc....etc.....etc...

I am just so hurt by all of this right now... This week end took a lot out of me.... After everything that this OM has done to her and she still thinks he is a choice... I just can't believe it....
It seemed she was so close to taking the steps towards recovery but his constant stalking that she can't say know to pulls her back in... She listens to him tell her why she wont be happy with me and will with him then back up on the fence she goes.

I thought about what needs is he meeting that keeps the addiction so strong..
1) Companionship- She has not left the house with me since last MAY. Have not went out on a date by ourselves since 2004... OM and her have went on week end get aways all over the state in recent months.
I would say he is covering this atleast 95%
2) Converastion- This was completely his until I started plan A. He is stalking her and demanding she talk to him every free second of her life. She is now talking to me more than before D-Day but control freak is domintating this need as well... 95%
3) Sexual Fullfillment--- That one is easy... OM 100%
4) Affection--- This one is a toss up... She is taking this from both of us. Maybe even more my way on this... She said once he does not give her gifts and such like I do.
Mismoss as Lexxxy puts it. 50%-50%..
5) Admiration--- Another toss up... She tells me what OM says about her and how he just loves everything about her.
She takes this from both of us... 50%-50%
6) Domestic Support--- Kind of hard to say here. I now do all the house work... 100%... She is still living with me, so I guess I own this one. However, he did let her pick out appliances and paint and help him decorate his apartment. She was also disappointed that he did not help her with her apartment... I would say 90% me 10%OM
7) Financial Support- She said that OM never gives her money even when he said he would. She was very upset with him for making promises and not keeping them about taking care of her financially...
On the other hand, I give her small spending money for lunch or gas regularly. Also, I make much more money than OM does. He has a bad job history and make little money.
Also, I have paid to repair her car, have bought her clothes, gifts, food, etc. I would say 90% me 10% OM.
8) Honesty and Openess... OM has dominated this area for a long time. WW seen me as a liar and my word was crap because of not doing what I said I would for years. Recently I have greatly improved here while OM is now being caught up in lies like when he left his wife and why...
I would say 35% me 65%OM. Also, she has begun telling me about her feelings and what OM has done to her. Before she would tell me nothing. Also, OM is now angry all the time and does not want to ever hear my name again...
9) Family Committment--- She thought OM has a great family and mine is crap. She also thought DD12 would love OM. Lately OM's mommy called WW a horrible cheater. Also realizes that DD12 will have nothing to do with OM and don't approve of WW is she leaves for OM.
Then here is me, trying to save the family and taking care of DD12 while doing it.
I would say me 70% and OM 30%.
10) Attractive Spouse-- WW admitted that he is not very good looking and had to dress him up to look more like me.
I would say 95% Me and 5% OM.

That is where I think her emotional needs are being met.

This all just sucks..... Why wish the fog was gone and she could see the real truth....
I do love her but this is so hard to deal with...


I need to go now... More later..

Dazed-

Given all of this, the most pressing thing I can think of is this...how is your LB holding up? Bear in mind the discussions that have been held here on plan A vs. plan B...as long as you're able to do plan A then the advice has been to stick with it.

I give you credit man...you've done far more than I've been able to.

((dazed))

I admire your strength.

He's a real manipulator. And she's in way over her head.

Sadly, I just don't think your Plan A will pull her out of it. (just my opinion, folks...)

In my heart I have believed since I started posting to you that it is going to take her actually losing everything you represent...having OM try to meet all those EN's.....him failing miserably....her ending that relationship on the basis that it is a huge mistake....and her crashing and realizing what she has done. She'll have a lot of personal recovery to do.

Eventually you'll get her back...and you'll get her back repentant, remorseful and willing to do ANYTHING to fix what she's done. Which is how you want her to return -- not like you have her now. She's returned, but not to your marriage, just to continue the affair and hurt you and DD more.

You have a lot of posters that think her returning home and ending the divorce proceedings was a victory -- I think it was a huge delay. (again, just my opinion, folks!)

I'm just calling it like I see it. This thread has stirred up far to many A versus B discussions -- so I'm just keeping my mouth shut and wishing you the best.

Dazed,

Your WS cannot now appreciate the effort, courage and strength it takes for you to do what you are doing and so I just wanted you to know that we do.

You are in a lot of pain...I think you need some relief... Is there anything you can do just for you, to take a break?

I will leave it up to others to suggest what 'strategy' to follow. I do agree that the A will be over...I am just worried about how long it will take and at what cost....you're taking a lot of abuse while your WS is cake-eating....I think something needs to happen for her to make a decision.... it looks to me that the 'abuse' has become 'normal' somehow...

...because given what you said....your WS could go on for quite awhile as is.... but I don't think you can!

...it looks to me it's time to evaluate your 'limits' and your 'breaking point'... tolerating abuse for too long is not good for the soul....

...I would certainly urge you to consider PLAN B...not for anything else but to remove yourself from the abuse and chaos... like I did...

I am sorry about your pain....I've been there....it's tough...I am worried about you.....

I think you are worth more than saving your M.....
I think the abuse needs to stop, and your WS needs to receive a clear message about that....
I think your WS needs to see what her life would be like without you in it...

What is your timeline for PLAN B?

And this surprises you, Dazed? Remember...you are not nor have you been in recovery!! So, these are the types of things that do happen when a wife is still a WW. All a part of the game, unfortunately.


Lol. This is funny. This guy is one saucer short of a full place setting.


So what, Dazed? Please stop getting caught up in this. That relationship cannot last. It is now at the stage where she is trying to find ways to make it better. She cant! She just doesnt fully know that yet. This thing isnt going to work out. But does that mean it will be fully over today? Probably not. This thing will take as long as it takes. Until it is fully over though, you will continue to see this bizarre behavior.


Yes you can Dazed. You know it is all fog and stupidness. Her head hasnt been pulled out yet! She is still trying to make something so very wrong...right. She cant. And she will realize that if you just stay calm and she works her way through it. I am not saying be a doormat. I have a few things I will suggest in a minute that will help. But you shouldnt lower the boom on her either. Or end the marriage yet. You have to be steady here. Consistent. But also defend boundaries.


She can talk about him like he is the president of the U.S...that doesnt make him so! Please do not get caught up in her babble. You know it aint true. So dont react like it is!


Which can be found on page 187 of the WS Handbook. it's all typical Dazed!!


Their relationship cant be fixed Dazed. He is a mess. He is scary. He cant get around that.


And??


Dazed...LISTEN TO WHAT SHE ASKED YOU? Isnt she asking you "Dazed, when will the fog clear? When will I see reality again?" Shoot...even in her own weird, WS way...she even knows this is all babble. You need to see that as well.


Which is found on page 56 of the WS Handbook. It is why they almost never try to divorce first. they want the BS to do it. They want the easy way out. They want the BS to make the decision. They know what they are doing is wrong, but they feel powerless to do the right thing...or to leave fully. You knwo this Dazed. So again...dont be a part of her mess!


Yes, she does. All WS's do. So dont allow that, okay?


Sorry, I am not an OP. Not sure what goes on in their morally bankrupt minds! Does it really matter Dazed? you are the better man. Clearly!


And somehow cocaine addicts keep desiring their fix...even as it kills them. You know the deal here Dazed. I know you are hurt. This stuff hurts! But please remained focused on the truth. You are the sane one there.


Sooooooooo...what is your plan to combat the enemy? He stalks...and you do...??? Maybe get that order now against him? Look, POJA is for you and your wife...NOT you and your WW! Got it? So, she might get mad if you get that protective order. So, she might even leave again. So what? Dazed, she is still gone in many ways. In some, she has coem back to you and is now fence sitting. But she is being pulled back over by the OM. And she will be pulled over without either you pulling back or you hitting the enemy hard. You are pulling with your great Plan A. But I still say that protecting her from him will go a long way toward recovering her. Look at how nasty the OM has been about it and threatened by it.

Dazed...just do it. Not just as a protective measure (although that is a big reason!)...but also as a measure your wife can see and use to run for cover behind. Right now, she is under assault from OM...and has no protection. Give it to her. Give her a foxhole to jump-in.


I see improvement here. Please remember, concentrate on her top 3-5 needs. That will pay the biggest dividends!


We all do Dazed. It will happen. A good vent by you. Please protect your boundaries and continue to drive wedges between ehr and him. Do so with your meeting needs. Look, she is talking with you more...relying on you more. She want to give that up? Nope...it will be painful!

Also protect boundaries by doing what you can to keep OM away from her. Get the order against him. Continue to tell her that contact with him is not acceptable. Continue to apply pressure on that relationship.

We all want the war over with Dazed. It will end. You have fought a great fight. Just keep heart and finish this thing.

In His arms.

Lexxxy, I dont believe it is a huge delay. Sure, I may agree with you that Plan B and her losing everything could still be the main way for her to pull her head out. Remember, I love Plan B and I think it will be awesome if he has to go to it. But her coming home did accomplish a few things. look at how she is talking to him, being around him. This wasnt like before when she was home. He has had a chance to solidify some things with her. Also, the OM during this period has had a chance to show his ugly side. She cant forget that! So, if and when he goes to Plan B and she loses everything, the stakes have been raised further. She knwos now she will be locked in with a psycho dude. She also knows that her husband was a good guy and she is losing a lot! So, I dont see it as wasted.

In His arms.

This might be a bad analogy but it seems like every time I read a new post from you Dazed she seems to have hit rock bottom. Then she gets out the jackhammer and digs a little deeper. You start hoisting her out and about halfway up she jumps back back into the deeper hole. This just seems like it's never going to end until you hate her with a passion and kick her to the curb with fire shooting out of your eyes.

I just can't figure her out. She's either a masochist, has deep emotional problems or something. If she's really "addicted" to this crazy man then telling her to stop and come home isn't going to do anything. It's the same thing as helping an alcoholic out whenever they get into trouble. They will never get better unless they hit rock bottom and have to climb out of the hole themselves. She needs to climb out of this A herslef or she'll never get better. Either that or you are just going to throw in the towel and when she finally see the light, your doors going to be locked up tight.

Just my 2 cents... Been reading this post since day one and I'm to the point I get a knot in my stomach everytime there's a new post. Good luck Dazed. You're an amazing guy.

Thank you all for the support today.
MM- As usual you are on point my friend...

Lexxxy-Lunamre-GWTF- Thank you... You all have good points.

Another question....
This one from WW...
She wants to speak with a FWW. She is looking for help.
She ask me for some one to call her....

Is this good or bad?

It seems she wants to speak with a woman rather than a man. She tells me she feels no ones understands her. Maybe this is why she wants to speak with a woman that has been in her shoes...

I gave her a link to MB to a post about regaining feelings for BS. There is some great info there about withdrawl, no contact, and dealing with feelings.
The info was posted by Melodylane, copy from Suzet, and Mr. & Mrs.Wonderings.

p.s.-Mr & Mrs. W ---Check your email....

This is good. I would reach out with another thread and ask for Dorry, or Mrs. Wondering (and any others) that are FWWs. Ask them to email your wife, not you. You want FWWs on here that understand the MB principles and also understand where your wife is. You also want FWWs that recovered their marriages too. Not that the others cant be helpful...but since your wife is in the fog right now, if she hears that this FWW didnt end up with her husband, it will be another reason not to try.

Your wife may trust one of these gals to help her understand how she can extricate herself from this. So, put another thread out there to FWWs. This is a good thing.

In His arms.

She can always email me

candice.louise@gmail.com

Thanks Dorry!

In His arms.

Dazed;

We did not receive any email today. Maybe your wife is intending to write Mrs. Wondering...we will keep watching.

You mentioned OM told your wife that he would mess with you and set traps for you around his home. It is perhaps risky to escalate the conflict directly between him and you; however, I know what I believe I would do in your situation. I would do drive-by's of HIS home. Maybe he would call the police on YOU. Imagine the scene...It's 2 a.m., you get pulled over in his driveway with all the lights flashing...all the neighbors come out to see what is going on (pick a warm night) and you explaining loudly to the police you are merely looking for you wife that is having an affair with OM. You mind your manners with the police and get a slap on the wrist and go home.

Hopefully, then OM files restraining order against you. You counterfile with one against him; but, since he took the initiative you come out smelling a little cleaner in WW's eyes. WW is probably a little more protective of you than him, or will just be perceived that way by OM (cause she's on the fence) and those two can continue Love Busting one another.

BTW, you should be calling our friend here, Bigkuhuna, in Australia on your wife's not-so-secret cell phone. Run up his cell phone bill. OM has got to nearly be out of money. Keep up the pressure.

Another tactic. You make more $$$ than OM. He's got to be insecure about that. Discuss with your wife getting a bigger home in a more expensive neighborhood to get away from OM. Discuss considering an expensive trip this summer (can you say Hawaii). Do not discuss financial difficulties that you probably are incurring lately with all that's gone on with your lives. Everything you "consider" will be repeated to OM. OM will love bust WW with HIS insecurities about and relating to money. OM will try to bash you too...another thing WW's don't like when they are up on the fence. It's all negative...no fantasy.

Keep your head up...

Mr. Wondering

I STRONGLY RECOMMEND NOT DOING THAT...
YOU have DAUGHTER...AND A POSSIBLE CUSTODY BATTLE.

best to keep your nose clean dazed.

this is NOT a game.

Not to be played.

I think B's your best bet.

Been thinking this since november btw. and it's mid february almost.

quit padding her falls.

LET THE WW FALL FOR ONCE OK?

and have the idiot arrested if he comes near your home or stalks or sneaks around it. keep your DD SAFE SINCE HER OWN MOM IS INCAPABLE OF DOING SO.

I'd personally have a temporary hearing for custody asap since WW is escalating and is imho...going to be a catalyst for VIOLENCE...

her leading om on will make SOMEBODY...EITHER HIM OR YOU GO OVER EDGE. Stay clean...stay focused. Keep DD as FRONT OF PICTURE.

You're letting a WS RULE YOUR LIFE...WRONGO.

They can't even make up their minds abo ut truth vs. lies and you are having meltdowns weekly b/c of this woman.

Keep focus on being PARENT FIRST...husband second...your WW is out there man.

She's waaaaay out there.

I consider her extremely damaging btw.

To me, it seems she is eating even more cake now. Much more cake. And she is not gonna stop until somebody tells ww that she can have one cake BUT NOT 2 TO EAT ANYMORE. Take away one of her cakes.

Sick part...YOU'RE ALLOWING THIS TO HAPPEN...ALL UNDER GUISE OF PLAN A AND FEAR OF LOVE BUSTING...

Time you QUIT WORRYING ABOUT LB'ING AND TAKE AWAY THE [email]DA@N[/email] CAKE!

REMOVED...

Again Dazed....no email received

There is an underscore "_" between "the" and "wonderings" in our yahoo email address. Perhaps you are mistying.

You sound more like yourself tonight.

Mr. W

Dazed:

Do you ever asked yourself if Mrs Dazed is worthy of being your wife and caregiver of your child. Is there not a point in time that you make a decision to give your Ww to the sickf_ _ _ and sit back and watch them both ruin their lives. I don't think MB's, and its wonderful principals, tell us to accept and welcome our hurtful spouses back at any price.

I think the minute you choose to seriously set her free will be the time she will beg you to come home. It is then and probably only then that you will need to make the hard choice of taking her back or finding someone better suited for your very forthright and moral good self.

Cut her free with all your heart and this turmoil will end one way or the other.

TooSoon

Dazed,

Jennifer does do phone counseling, she is great. I hope all your hard work pays off.