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Dear WTW:

do you remember when he claimed to break it off with OW the first time around and you found out about continued contact?

Do you think this change in him now is for real?
Listen to your own feelings. You have had enough, you wrote. I blieve you.

You owe your H NOTHING. He lied to you repeatedly, betrayed you for four years- every week. He likes his arrangement with OW on Fridays and you and the kids at home. Has he said he will call OW and in your presence break off the relationship with her? Will he change jobs now, so there is no more contact? Have you told him in the past about the MB website?

He is trying to manipulate you again and only you can decide if you are willing to give him another chance -again and again. Your gut feeling is to move on for your own good. Listen to your feelings, they are trying to tell you something to protect yourself.

Hugs,




FBS 44, FWH 47
A during FWH's MLC
Forgive, live, love.
Everyday...

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OK, I'm going to throw something out here that I don't believe has been mentioned yet.
Many(including myself) feel the coincidence of his timing is a little hard to believe. So how do we get to the heart of your WH's sudden remorse?
Many have suggested he is reading here, or, in fact, reading you and your behavior. This could all be true.
So here's what I would suggest. Did you not say OW is married? If so, you have one more exposure to do. Tell OWH about the A and how long it's been going on. First of all, he has every much a right to know as you do. Secondly, it will slam the door shut on the A continuing, in spite of the collusion of the OW and WH.
Then, sit back and watch the actions of your WH. If he is truly repentant and sorrowful, he will completely understand your actions. If this is all another guise to convince you to back off, he will be furious that you busted OW to her H.
As many have said so many times, actions speak louder than word, and the truth is, you cannot at this time trust your WH.
If she is single, you should expose to school admin. to see what action he then takes.
JMHO.
All Blessings,
Jerry

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I don't think OW is married else how would the GPS showing he was at her house and probably going there each weekend make any sense.

Lots of WS's are less than sincere the first time or two they are found out. She will know soon enough if this is for real or not.

Of course NC is imperative. I really hope she/he works with Steve Harley to come up with a plan. At least a couple of sessions in conjunction with their regular MC.

Last edited by Trix; 01/17/06 04:49 PM.

Married 1976
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One of the most profound statements I have ever read on MB's came from YOU W2W:
Quote
He is stealing my life from me one day at a time and he is doing it on purpose.


He stole FOUR YEARS of your life.
Thats something I could not forgive.

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Hear, hear. Profound words, Waiting. Good catch Lexxxy.

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Yes, Yes, no matter what he says...you must expose to the school!


I am the BW,
He is the FWH
D-Day: 12/02/03

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and we're all still going at it w/out any questions or asking of information from www2. poor girl has had the same thing said 1000 times. not to mention a couple punches in the gut while she's already down. enough is enough already. this is not a game of who has the best answer, this is a marriage w/people and children involved. yes i said people. people go strange places in their brain while having an affair, check out dearpeggy.com as to the reasons why people have affairs. this dude did not purposely set out to hurt www2, he was a classic dude in the fog. give this girl some breathing room. if i were her i would feel like a bunch of vultures came sworming down on me. seems like many are feeling the pain this whole saga has brought on feelings from their own spouses infidelity. lets let www2 chill and gather her thoughts and ask more questions when she is ready????


"The best and most beautiful things in the world cannot be seen or even touched. They must be felt with the heart." Helen Keller
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Pem wrote:

"this dude did not purposely set out to hurt www2, he was a classic dude in the fog. give this girl some breathing room. if i were her i would feel like a bunch of vultures came sworming down on me. seems like many are feeling the pain this whole saga has brought on feelings from their own spouses infidelity. lets let www2 chill and gather her thoughts and ask more questions when she is ready????"

Pem, I would just say that her H saw her pain after d-day #1, and yet he continued his A for another 4 yrs. Or at least resumed it at some point. How long do we allow the fog excuse?

I will agree that WTW's sitch reminds me of certain things I went through. It's difficult to read and relive. Yet, in my case, I'm putting up with my feelings in order to try and be of some help because people here on GQll did the exact same thing for me. I personally think people have been helping her do what she needs to do in order to get to the truth. It appears that her H either knows her newfound resolve, or is picking up on it subconsciously.

WTW, if pem is correct, and you think some of us are swooping vultures, please let us know, OK? Or at least let me know. I have no idea and couldn't even guess if your H is or isn't sincere. I can say without a doubt he is one screwed up man. As Aph said he will need major IC to figure out how he could keep this deception going for over 4 yrs. Only you can decide if you want your M or not. I think many of us are just telling you to watch your back and take things slowly to test his resolve. You deserve to have him fight for your M now. CV

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Pem,

"People go strange places in their brain while having an affair, check out dearpeggy.com as to the reasons why people have affairs. This dude did not purposely set out to hurt www2, he was a classic dude in the fog."

I don't want to argue, but I request to be allowed to heartily disagree.

LTA's are different. Fog is usually long gone by four years, yet the A is still going on. The A long ago evolved to F-buddies or virtual bigamy. Attachment of the WS to the OP by then is usually stronger than for the BS. In some LTAs the OP has almost totally replaced the spouse even if WS has not left the M and never will.

After 4 years and at least one DDay already, W2W’s WH knows exactly what he is doing. He has sorted out by then everything he is doing. He has thought about everything relevant by then. LTA WS’s by then intentionally continue because they long ago learned how to get away with it. The whole A rational has very little to do with fog by then.

LTAs either require or evolve into a major character defect in the WS. By the time the A is an LTA the WS has been living a double life for so long he/she is now the kind of person they truly are.

W2W needs to understand all this. LTAs are not treatable with standard MB methods. W2W needs to get advice directly from SH or someone equally as knowledgeable in this outlier type of A.

I suggest you call the Harleys, pem, and ask about LTAs for yourself.

But the rest of your post has merit. W2W gets to decide what she needs and when she needs it.

Just the same, some of us recovering from an LTA are willing to stick our necks out to help her avoid our fate. We are willing to help her identify the unknowns, the big things she does not YET even know enough to ask anyone about.

What is wrong with that?

With prayers,

Added: At the risk of a DJ aimed at W2W's WH, IMO his current stance is one of convenience. It's an act until proven otherwise.

Last edited by Aphelion; 01/17/06 06:39 PM.

"Never forget that your pain means nothing to a WS." ~Mulan

"An ethical man knows it is wrong to cheat on his wife. A moral man will not actually do it." ~ Ducky

WS: They are who they are.

When an eel lunges out
And it bites off your snout
Thats a moray ~DS
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W2W,

I would suggest being very cautious. As you know, the WS have an uncanny sense of knowing what to say and how to say it, and when too for that matter.

I agree with the others, only real change will happen after you stand up for yourself, and it won't be just one time. Someone else here said that most likely your WH could be "good" for awhile, but not long-term if the change isn't real. Well, I believe these WS who are true takers, will keep trying to unless and until it is made clear that the BS isn't going to take it any more. I'm sure we all have our own stories of abuse and neglect, but I'm like others here in saying your WS is in a different class. My WS isn't quite in it, only 1 year of continued A after I thought it was over compared to your 4, but I struggle the most with how could he continue after he knew the pain it caused? Answer, they don't care, at the time. Does he care now? Who knows, either way you won't believe him right now, I wouldn't either. It is only through consistent actions over time that you'll begin to believe him. You'll have to keep reminding him of your boundaries, it will not be one conversation, but many over several years.

Some things strike me beyond the timing, almost certain he knew that you knew, or were close. He said he was with you for the kids. Now, if he thought that was seriously threatened, how important is that piece to him that he would suddenly regret everything he has done to you? On the other hand, he did make the appointment, which it is good, or is it again, more evidence how important his kids are to him? Does he know that you will not live in an "arranged" marriage? If he does, he may be feeding you things in order for you to think he has changed.

People that have struggled and have suddenly seen the light don't wait until Monday while you're at work to call you up. They share this, or you sense this through his changed behavior after the funeral and on Sunday. Keep your walls up emotionally, only you are looking out for you, please don't depend on him to, he has proven that he can't do it well.


Me-49, WH-51
Married 02/1983 yrs, Sons - 27, 26, 20
1st PA - 1985, 1st known EA - 1992/1993
2nd PA - 06/02 to 11/04
1st D-day - 09/03, D-day 2 - 10/04 D-day 3 05/08
NC e-mail - 11/04- it wasn't real
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One woman had her WH take a lie detector test to try to understand what was truth. It took two times. Their marriage recovered. (only a 6 wk A with her friend and neighbor.)


Married 1976
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You will always have to have dealings with your h in regard to your children whatever happens.The best outcome for you and your children IMO is the complete removal of the OW. She is the fly in the ointment .

Consider! If you throw him out he will always be the father of your children that can never change. If he falls into her arms she will continue to occupy a very prominent position in your life .You will be in constant contact with her regarding the children.

IHMO He has a lot to lose and he is waking up to that fact. The least he can do if he truly loves his family are .......

1 Absolutely no contact.... f=/, off for ever OW

2 Resign his job immediately telling them why he is leaving .

3 Follow through on his responsibilities to his family
and for him to decide how best this is to be done.

4 Attend marriage counselling to assist with above

Your situation is similar to mine and is a very common one. The 10 yr old marriage coincides with the birth of another child.in my case at the start of the a I was 34 my h 38 and the OW 24 .

I blame her more than him. A 38 yr old married man with 2 children is a pushover when it comes to the I'm available, no strings attached ,no one will ever know, attention seeking, control freak OW.

Anyway whatever you decide i wish you the very best
.

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Well, it is still the same affair, so if WW2 has the stamina and enough left in her love bank, I would cautiously start dating, slowly and watch WSs actions. I would have him change jobs-now. No further contact and watch the gps. I realize that his change of heart is sudden and the timing uncanny, but noticing that his wife was changing and then going to a funeral may have shocked him out of his MLC, realizing that yes, he would die someday no matter what.

If he signs on as a model FWS, then I'd cautiously give him a chance, if only for the kids. AND only if WW2 is up for it. What is another few months after 4 years anyway. Do you think she should talk to the OW?

By the way, WW2, no one would fault you if you wanted to move on, I am 100% pro marriage, but your H has done a great deal of damage. I do believe that he could have finally realized and since I have had a succesful recovery, I believe it is possible. After all, only 3% end up with their OW. I think the A fizzeled.

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WTW,
How are you? Did he follow thru w/MC last night? You've gotten an awful lot of advice on both sides of the issue..and the bottom line is it is your decision on how to proceed. You are in my thoughts and prayers for a clear mind and a calm heart. Let us know how you are...we worry.


aka-confused42
BS-45 me
WH-42
DS-14 & DD-12
together 21 yrs, married 18.5yrs
"I love you but not IN love with you" speech 6/3/04
D-Day 2/25/05; WH moved out 3/15/05 & back too soon 3/22/05...He left again 5/8/06
5/25/06 Plan B.....NC letter 6/18/06
Recovery finally began Jan 2007
We are IN love again!!!Sept 2007
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W2W,

In my case, my WH went to a funeral too that affected him. In his case, as he was still all about him, he also thought of who would come to the funeral if it were him and what would they say. He basically felt sorry for himself. He didn't stop with the A, though, never said he wanted to change, didn't want to go to MC. So, it is very confusing for you I'm sure.

The truth is very elusive, especially when one is a master of manipulation and the other one who desperately doesn't want to hurt her kids. I completely understand that. My sons are much older than you and they know quite a bit after the fact. The two older sons are upset with me for not "punishing" their dad for his behavior and the yougest is upset that we moved from NJ basically under false pretenses. I am trying to proceed with integrety, that's all I can do really. I hope you are ok today. Let us know about the MC and the attorney. <<hugs>>


Me-49, WH-51
Married 02/1983 yrs, Sons - 27, 26, 20
1st PA - 1985, 1st known EA - 1992/1993
2nd PA - 06/02 to 11/04
1st D-day - 09/03, D-day 2 - 10/04 D-day 3 05/08
NC e-mail - 11/04- it wasn't real
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alph, i spoke w/sandy in the harley's office about another matter just yesterday as a matter of fact and she was talking about a long term affair couple she is currently working with. i will agree alph, that i am not an expert on lta's, however as I have mentioned there are plenty people here and others i know personally that have recovered successfully. one specifically visits our board from time to time in recovery forum. here's the author of dear peggy whose husband had many many affairs as an example http://www.dearpeggy.com/beyond.html

the fog excuse cv, can be used as long as there is not a spouse doing plan a or plan be to expose the light to the affair and make it's "romantic effect become less romantic"

i appologize for being a more positive force representing the sanctity of marriage more encouraging words instead of words of "don't or wouldn't or shouldn't" all of those things are for down the road..... not now. many of the words here are "i wouldn't trust him, how convenient he changes now etc etc etc". in fact i believe one of my responses was have his bags packed....that was in response to my own fears and feelings if my spouse were to be a repeat offender.....things i would have liked to do but didn't. i get the feeling many here are being convicted of their forgivingness and project what they would have liked to have done on those who have the opportunity to do so. anyway, none of this really matters. we can agree to disagree because everyone has their own opinions..... when you want to know what opinions are successful, you look to the professionals who have results from their practices such as the harleys or dear peggy or whomever. tell me that there never was a couple who successfully recovered their marriage after a long term affair and i will be happy to dig up the proof. if the circumstances are right and the two are willing participants, anything is possible.

Last edited by 2334pem; 01/18/06 12:21 PM.

"The best and most beautiful things in the world cannot be seen or even touched. They must be felt with the heart." Helen Keller
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I had to take a break. Sorry for being gone. I have read everything each MBer has written, though, and I thank you for each word. I cannot go thru this alone – I WILL NOT – and each of you out there has provided some sense of comfort and hope for me. For that, I can never thank you enough.

We went to MC last night. I am still taking in everything that was said. But, MC and WH both feel that there is hope for recovering our marriage. I am not sure – I still don’t feel anything. I must be numb. WH broke down several times and really showed a side of himself that I have not seen for many, many years. He seems desperate to make me believe that loves me and wants a life with me. I just can’t believe him. It’s not that I don’t want to – I just can’t. I feel like a zombie – flat. Not happy, not sad, not mad – nothing.

I am meeting with our counselor by myself tomorrow morning. He seems to think that I need some time by myself to figure out what I feel and what I want before any MC can take place. If I decide not to commit to the marriage – which he said is perfectly fine, especially considering everything that I have been thru – then that changes the course of therapy.

One thing that he said struck me. He told me (in front of WH) that, although God does not like divorce, the Bible does give a few ‘outs’ and that this (adultery) is one of them. He said that God does not want people to go thru what I am dealing with and that I am perfectly within my rights in the law and in God’s eyes to end this marriage if I have had enough. He said he would not blame me – no one would. He told me that he remembered all I went thru last time and commented that several times he did not know how I even made it through.

However, he also said that divorce is an OPTION, not a COMMANDMENT. That I am not expected to do one or the other. Either is fine and it is up to me. For some reason, I found some comfort in that.

He asked if I was committed to getting a divorce at this time. After a bit of thought, I told him that I was committed to not living my life the way I had been anymore. I was committed to being treated well and having a loving relationship in my life. And, that the only way I can see to get that is thru a divorce.

I did go see my attorney today. I did not file for divorce, but I gathered lots of information about what to expect and what my kids and I will go thru if it comes to that. I also got a ‘list’ of things that I need to do to get ready to file. So, although I did not file, I feel like I still have options and that I have a plan to work on for the next few days while I try an figure out what I want.

That’s it for now. I still need those prayers – they are truly what gets me thru!

Thanks, WTW

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W2W,

Be sure all four of you understand, espeially WH and your MC, that MC is a total waste of time if there is any ongoing contact whatsoever in any form between WH and OW.

Which means, exposure and NC letter - asap. Thus the four of you. OW needs to understand this too, even if she does not agree. Especially if she does not agree.

You may as well sit there and knit the hour through if NC is not already total and absolute. It may as well be mediation as opposed to MC if NC is not in place.

With prayers,

Added: You probably realize that OW already knows everything going on. At the very least WH is contacting her to cancel or postpone Friday’s usual "poker game," and she knows the reason, too. This is when typical LTAers generally hunker down to weather just another storm in their long relationship. You and MC need to make this storm the equivalent of Armageddon to the LTA. If you do not immediately D, that is.

All As require strong measures. LTAs require the end of life as we know it measures.

Last edited by Aphelion; 01/18/06 02:17 PM.

"Never forget that your pain means nothing to a WS." ~Mulan

"An ethical man knows it is wrong to cheat on his wife. A moral man will not actually do it." ~ Ducky

WS: They are who they are.

When an eel lunges out
And it bites off your snout
Thats a moray ~DS
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Yes - NC was the first thing discussed. WH has offered to quit his job or put in for a transfer to another school. MC intends to meet with WH separately to discuss the affair, OW, etc. However, MC feels that that the most pressing cisis right now is me - my feelings, my wants, my plans.

And, I'll say this............ for once, it is really, really nice to have it all about ME! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

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(((WTW)))
How positive you sound, today. YOU are important. YOU deserve to be happy.

The other day I posted to you about wishing my parents had divorced earlier. That was in no way an encouragement for you to divorce. It was an encouragment that if divorce was your decision, your kids would rather you be happy and divorced than married and miserable for them. I hate to see any marriage end, but I hate to see any one be miserable for a lifetime.

I so hope the best for you.

Are you planning to take him up on the offer to change jobs? Just my opinion, but I think that would be a huge positive step combined with a NC letter.

I do agree you are in the most important part of the equation at the moment. MY IC said it was like I needed to be in ICU, to be treated with that much care. I am glad the counselor sees

You don't have to hurry into a decision do you? It is good you have gathered the information and will be able to make informed decisions.

I know we'll all be keeping in you our prayers that you make the best decision for you and your children.

blessings

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