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this is riduculous...
IT is NOT the minister that is having an affair..
it is his wife..
SHE is not the leader of the church..
she is a MEMBER.. The pastor has more at stake than his marriage. That is what is being discussed here. Again, Ark...this thread wasnt about how to save his marriage. It was what should the church do. marriage building principles are clear expose to the BS..
have the BS confront the WS
expose the affair to friends, family and place of work to expose the affair to the light of day..
and then plan A
and then plan b...
(put down the wooden sticks there will no burnings at the stake today people....)
this is an affair...
place of EMPLOYMENT OF BS makes this no more or NO less evil than any other affair.. Doesnt have to do with "place of employment." The pastor can be a pastor without being "employed." The original poster herewanted to know what he and the church should do. How it should be done in the church. He discussed how this may have happened before with this pastor's wife. He discussed that it might be possible that the pastor may or has swept this under the rug. The response here was how does the church and its members deal with this...NOT how does the pastor deal with his wife. this is MARRIAGEBUILDERS.... Not Christiansruleseveryone-elsedrools.com... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> any and all advice is to first start with the BS.. and move from there... it's elementary it's no different than any other torrid gross thing... ARK^^ True...if we were talking about how to advise the BS (pastor). But we arent here. We are talking about how does Endures and the church handle this. MB had nothign to say about that. In His arms.
Standing in His PresenceFBS (me) (48) FWW (41) Married April 1993... 4 kids (19(B), 17(G), 14(B), 4(B)) Blessed by God more than I deserve "If Jesus is your co-pilot...you need to change seats!"Link: The Roles of Husbands and Wives
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OH but that is exactly what the advice here..
at marriagebuilders.com should be...
just as it is for everyone else...
start with the BS....
you can't say because he is a preacher it STARTS anywhere else but with the BS...
and once the BS is informed
move from there....
this poster should be redirected to start with the BS...
where else should we start....
already we are deciding he ALLOWS this..while the poor bloke may not know..or be in denial as soooo many BS are..
to go any where else but FIRST to him.
would be unCHRIST like in my opinion...
if you can't be compassionate within the confindes of a congregation...then lets just hang the whole mess up now..
ARK
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True...if we were talking about how to advise the BS (pastor). But we arent here. We are talking about how does Endures and the church handle this. MB had nothign to say about that.
that's exactly what marriagebuilders principles advise us to do...
ARK
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Opening line..... I would appreciate anyone's thoughts or suggestions on this one. Closing line... I welcome anyone's views and/or advise. Can we please get over ourselves and allow that ANYONE has a right to give advice when it is clearly asked of ANYONE. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />
Do not ask the Lord to guide your footsteps if you are not willing to move your feet.
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I want to ask a question. Where are the rules written about exposure? The only portion I can find on the website says the following: Should an affair be revealed?
I have been letting you in on some clues to infidelity when a spouse is unwilling to be truthful. But there are a few, of course, who are honest enough to tell their spouses about an affair without being confronted. Guilt sometimes sets in right after the first sexual encounter, and it continues to build as one lie is added to another. Depression follows guilt and it's not unusual for a wayward spouse to even consider suicide as a way to escape the nightmare he or she has created. As an act of desperation, honesty is sometimes seized as a last resort, often in an effort to relieve the feelings of guilt.
From my perspective, honesty is part of the solution to infidelity, and so I'll take honesty for whatever reason, even if it's to relieve a feeling of guilt and depression. The revelation of an affair is very hard on an unsuspecting spouse, of course, but at the same time, it's the first step toward marital reconciliation.
Most unfaithful spouses know that their affair is one of the most heartless acts they could ever inflict on their spouse. So one of their reasons to be dishonest is to protect their spouse from emotional pain. "Why add insult to injury," they reason. "What I did was wrong, but why put my spouse through needless pain by revealing this thoughtless act?" As is the case with bank robbers and murderers, unfaithful spouses don't think they will ever be discovered, and so they don't expect their unfaithfulness to hurt their spouse.
But I am one of the very few that advocate the revelation of affairs at all costs, even when the wayward spouse has no feelings of guilt or depression to overcome. I believe that honesty is so essential to the success of marriage, that hiding past infidelity makes a marriage dishonest, preventing emotional closeness and intimacy.
It isn't honesty that causes the pain, it's the affair. Honesty is simply revealing truth to the victim. Those who advocate dishonesty regarding infidelity assume that the truth will cause such irreparable harm, that it's in the best interest of a victimized spouse to go through life with the illusion of fidelity.
It's patronizing to think that a spouse cannot bear to hear the truth. Anyone who assumes that their spouse cannot handle truth is being incredibly disrespectful, manipulative and in the final analysis, dangerous. How little you must think of your spouse when you try to protect him or her from the truth.
It's not only patronizing, but it's also false to assume that your spouse cannot bear to hear the truth. Illusions do not make us happy, they cause us to wander through life, bumping into barriers that are invisible to us because of the illusion that is created. Truth, on the other hand, reveals those barriers, and sheds light on them so that we can see well enough to overcome them. The unsuspecting spouse of an unfaithful husband or wife wonders why their marriage is not more fulfilling and more intimate. Knowledge of an affair would make it clear why all efforts have failed.
After revealing an affair, your spouse will no longer trust you. But lack of trust does not ruin a marriage, it's the lack of care and protection that ruins marriages. Your spouse should not trust you, and the sooner your spouse realizes it, the better.
The Policy of Radical Honesty is one of two rules you must follow to protect your spouse from your self-centered behavior, which includes affairs. The other rule is the Policy of Joint Agreement (never do anything without an enthusiastic agreement between you and your spouse). If you were to be completely honest with you spouse, and you were to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement, an affair would be impossible, unless for some reason your spouse wanted you to have one.
If you knew that your affair would be discovered -- that right after having sex with your co-worker, your spouse were to find out about it -- you would probably not go through with it. And if you were honest enough with your spouse so that YOU would be the one to tell him or her what you did, your honesty would be a huge reason to avoid any affair.
How the victimized spouse should respond to the revelation of an affair is a subject of a later column. I do not have the space to treat it here. But a spouse is twice victimized when he or she is lied to about an affair. Truth is far easier to handle than lies.
Some affairs, those like the husbands of R.J. and M.S., are discovered by their spouses. But as R.J. and M.S. have seen, knowing about an affair is only the first step toward recovery.
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OH but that is exactly what the advice here..
at marriagebuilders.com should be...
just as it is for everyone else...
start with the BS....
you can't say because he is a preacher it STARTS anywhere else but with the BS...
and once the BS is informed
move from there....
this poster should be redirected to start with the BS...
where else should we start....
already we are deciding he ALLOWS this..while the poor bloke may not know..or be in denial as soooo many BS are..
to go any where else but FIRST to him.
would be unCHRIST like in my opinion...
if you can't be compassionate within the confindes of a congregation...then lets just hang the whole mess up now..
ARK I dont get this Ark. I really dont. As outlined in the Scripture FH stated and I expounded on, the first rule is the BS is to confront the WS. Yes, that is an MB principle. And that was advised by everyone. The expanded issue was what does the church do, especially as since it appears this has happened before? If indeed this has happened before and the pastor swept it under the rug...then it is a church issue. It isnt JUST their marriage. As a pastor, you signed onto somethign bigger than yourself. As a pastor's wife, you signed onto what your husband signed onto. Since he is a pastor, he is held to a higher standard. As the wife of the pastor...she is also! The church has a vested interest in that marriage. If the pastor needs advice on how to save his marriage, then any of us can advise on how to do that using MB principles (which just so happens to dovetail nicely with what is Biblical also!). If this church member needs advice on how to deal with this as a church member, and the fact that there is gossip, and there is indication that this has happened before...then that needs to come from Biblical sources also. MB doesnt speak to this. And if it did, and was contrary to what the Bible said...then the Christian should ignore the MB advice. Again, we are getting wrapped around the axle here. The issue o nthe table isnt how to save the marriage. It is what to do with a pastor that may have a iwfe who is committing adultery with a church member and that pastor may have or is sweeping it under the rug. That is NOT allowed! If the pastor confronts his wife (Biblical and MB principle) and she repents and stops her evil behavior, then the issue is closed. But if he doesnt confront his wife or she doesnt repent...then it is the church's responsibility to step in under the commandments and rules of God. And again...that part, MB does nto speak to. In His arms.
Standing in His PresenceFBS (me) (48) FWW (41) Married April 1993... 4 kids (19(B), 17(G), 14(B), 4(B)) Blessed by God more than I deserve "If Jesus is your co-pilot...you need to change seats!"Link: The Roles of Husbands and Wives
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Opening line..... I would appreciate anyone's thoughts or suggestions on this one. Closing line... I welcome anyone's views and/or advise. Can we please get over ourselves and allow that ANYONE has a right to give advice when it is clearly asked of ANYONE. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> Anyone can give advice, as you have said. FH advised the poster that any advice from a secular point of view should not be heeded though. Sure, if that point of view were in line with Scripture, then they should follow it. But then...it would be a Biblical point of view! All Christians are commanded not to take worldly advice. Now, if an atheist tells me how to find the local grocery store, can I accept that advice? Sure. What it is talking about here is taking advice in contradiction with Scripture. As I said, anyone can and should advise on how to help this pastor with the infidelity issues of his wife. What anyone CANNOT help with is this question asked by the poster: Should a few of us in the congregation meet with the area conference minister? If Scripture says they should take it to the church, then that trumps anything we come up with on here. Now, that isnt what Scripture says. It says that the pastor is to confront his wife on the adultery. The issue the church will have is if she doesnt stop OR the pastor does not confront her. In His arms.
Standing in His PresenceFBS (me) (48) FWW (41) Married April 1993... 4 kids (19(B), 17(G), 14(B), 4(B)) Blessed by God more than I deserve "If Jesus is your co-pilot...you need to change seats!"Link: The Roles of Husbands and Wives
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LOL... this is beyond entertaining, doncha think, WAT? Gotta get me some popcorn.
Okay, maybe not that funny. But my hypocricy meter just died from overuse.
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Main Entry: hy·poc·ri·sy
Pronunciation: hi-'pä-kr&-sE also hI-
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -sies
Etymology: Middle English ypocrisie, from Old French, from Late Latin hypocrisis, from Greek hypokrisis act of playing a part on the stage, hypocrisy, from hypokrinesthai to answer, act on the stage, from hypo- + krinein to decide -- more at CERTAIN
1 : a feigning to be what one is not or to believe what one does not; especially : the false assumption of an appearance of virtue or religion
2 : an act or instance of hypocrisy
It seems everyone has a genuine belief in what they feel, no matter who they are. But then it does seem others want to play their part on the stage.
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mortar...
too much decision making....too far removed from the source..
the first rule is the BS is to confront the WS.
see we arent' even there yet....and now off on tangents on whose ALLOWED to even chime in...
any other person that comes here and says..
my friend is having an affair...which is what this is about...muddled with church roles....
we all give advice in post after after post..
tell the BS..
start there....
If indeed this has happened before and the pastor swept it under the rug...then it is a church issue.
too huge a leap in my opinion...
how do we KNOW what they did about it...
repeat offenders does not equal BS condonement..other wise then every BS here with a frequent flyer WS is to blame..
and the fact that there is gossip, and there is indication that this has happened before...
the fact there is gossip is because Christians like all others enjoy gossiping, intrusiveness and vouyersism just as much as the next unsaved slob...
human nature..
it's juicy it's about sex...lets dish....
Since he is a pastor, he is held to a higher standard.
not before given knowledge..
The issue o nthe table isnt how to save the marriage
and that's what should be on the table..
and people that adhere to marriagebuilding principles here on marriagebuilders...should feel free to do so...
people should start heir own thread on what to do IF and when the wife of a pastor does this that or the other...
and have jolly time discerning what this sect and that sect does within their church for such incidences....
a lovely enlightening exercise in theology
One of which I would most likely enjoy learning how and why churches choose this or that way...
but on this post...
putting the cart way way before the horse..
as in start with informing the BS period and move from there...
the role of elders in your church could be as night is to day with the role of elders in another church...
directing this poster to go anyone else but the BS first in my opinion is wrong and cruel....
as if because they are a pastor the don't have the opportunity to prepare for both the storm from their spouse...and the backlash from their job..
ARK
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FH advised the poster that any advice from a secular point of view should not be heeded though. I guess I may have misunderstood this statement from FH to another poster then: "please keep your secular advice out of church and confine it to the Betrayed Spouses and Wayward Spouses who can use some of the "techniques" because of their universal application, such as No Contact" As I said, anyone can and should advise on how to help this pastor with the infidelity issues of his wife. What anyone CANNOT help with is this question asked by the poster:
"Should a few of us in the congregation meet with the area conference minister?" My apologies. I missed the part of the posters question that excluded advice from ANYONE on that particular instance. Was there a "Christian only" warning I missed? Or more to the point, "I'm only looking for a specific Christian viewpoint" quote? It seems to me that there ARE other Christians responding that don't 100% agree with you. Count me as one of them. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> My point is that telling someone that they SHOULD NOT post on this board is pretty darn self-righteous. Cautioning someone to be careful of what advice they take is one thing. Telling others to mind their own business and that they aren't qualified to state an opinion when asked for it is another. I rarely post on a thread when it gets this ridiculous. I hope the original poster can wade through the muck of self serving posts and find some help to the original request for advice on this Marriage Builder board. FIM
Do not ask the Lord to guide your footsteps if you are not willing to move your feet.
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I would like to say also that the situational application is key here. The poster went into great depths about the persons involved and the situation of their involvement. I think situation should have bearing upon how the matter is handled. I would think that the same measures might be applied to another country where maybe the penalty for adultery was death...but the BS loved his WS and wanted to save them... so the manner in which it was handled was with great care and fit the application of that area. I think that is really the case here. The situation is a bit unique by it involving a pastor (his wife).
As for parallel paths and such stuff as that. When I say Christian, I speak as towards someone who believe that Jesus was who He claimed to be and that the Bible is truth, by itself, without any additions. With that said, I stand by my statement that to not believe in Him is to deny Him.
9 years now ... and some days you still say grrr!
Hang in there.
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MM - thanks for your reply. I haven't read anything else. Your reaction to my statement regarding the catholic churh and pedophelia: Huh? Believe me, the church doesnt need help from outside the church. The Catholic Church's problems are because of huge mistakes they have been making. If they had followed Scripture, they wouldnt be in this mess. But what they dont need is outside help. God can take care of the church issues just fine! (emphasis added) Who took care of the young boys they exploited while the church was "taking care of its self" without outside help, hmmmm??? You don't get it do you? THEY WEREN'T FOLLOWING SCRIPTURE!! They were trying to avoid "exposure". They were taking "care" of themselves, alright. It took outside help to reveal what was really going on! The pastor in this church ISN'T FOLLOWING SCRIPTURE!! This church needs all the help it can get from the outside because it's not getting it from the INSIDE!! I see there's a few more responses on this thread. Hopefully someone answered my question as to what "un-Christian" advice looks like. I'd really like to know. I guess, literally, it look like all of my posts! Let the buyer beware! At least it's cheap! WAT
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Don't shed those crocodile tears for the minister his slut of a wife OR Luke before you do so for Luke's wife!! WAT, you are disgusting in your compassion and use of verbage. For the record of all who are reading, have YOU or your wife ever had and affair? Let's get down to your personal knowledge and experience with the devastation of an affair since you "know all about them" and are persoanlly experienced, not vicariously through others, in the trials and tribulations of recovering a marriage from the disaster of adultery. Is this why you've been advising 2long to jettison his wife over the contacts? Getting to know the real WAT it seems.
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I am so grateful for your responses!! I've wrestled with this knowledge for a while, not knowing which way to go with it. It was I who actually was called upon by the pastor when someone anonymously went to him saying I was "gossiping" about his wife. When I sat with him privately, apologized for his having heard about his wife in this manner, then discussed what I'd observed and what I'd personally been told by a couple of other church members, he excused her behavior as I'd explained. But perhaps it was to save face. I agree 100% that his credibility as counselor and "leader of the flock" is poor. If I had marital issues, I would avoid him like the plague for counseling, knowing what I know. My friend, Luke, doesn't even know how to turn a computer on! Several friends have offered him lessons over the years but he doesn't take them. However, the books are a wonderful idea! I think I would give them to him anonymously however, because he naively thinks his affair is a big secret. Kathy suspects that I know because my behavior toward her has cooled down considerably to the point of near hostility. I can't help it. She disgusts me. Thank you, thank you so much! You have given me some sound feedback! I will keep you all posted with how things go. And I will use the MB materials suggested. L <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> [color:"orange"] [/color]
"That's the sign post up ahead. Your next stop. The twilight zone."--Rod Serling
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Just out of curiosity....are we trying to give advice on rebuilding and repairing the marriage or the church?
I agree that people of the same faith would be better at giving advice on issues regarding rebuilding the church.
However, aren't we talking about two married people involved in an affair? Wouldn't the marriage builders concepts apply to them regardless of their religion? I don't remember reading anywhere about levels of exposure or modifying the concepts based on the parties involved.
Granted, I am kinda new here......
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Of course Luke's wife Janet is among those who will be hurt. I was including her when I said Luke wouldn't be the only one hurt. Our whole church will be hurt by this. I look at it as a betrayal because the congregation looks to the minister and his family as a team, to set an example. Kathy is portraying herself as a smiling, cordial, pastor's wife, who even teaches Sunday school (ironically, she is Luke's son's teacher). There will be a LOT of hurt here. L waterfalls02333@yahoo.com [color:"orange"] [/color] [color:"orange"] [/color]
"That's the sign post up ahead. Your next stop. The twilight zone."--Rod Serling
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I hope it's ok if I chime in again? Does anyone think the minister is actually unaware of his wife's affair with Luke? Should a few of us in the congregation meet with the area conference minister? These are the only two questions asked by endures4evr. The first one could be an MB question. It is possible that the minister is aware. It is also possible that the minister is in denial. It is also possible that Kathy has gotten much better at hiding an A. Assuming she really is in an A. endures4evr has not written anything that says she has witnessed any thing herself. She is going only on things "others" have told her and what she has "learned". The second question could also be a MB question. endures4evr thinks an A could be going on, but she has not been witness to any of it as the post is written. What does she do? The answer is to talk to the BS's and make them aware of the talk going around. It is up to the BS's to do the confronting. Up until this point it is possible that MB has some solutions. However, endures4evr said; Shortly after the fundraiser, someone spoke to John about his wife, but he excused her behavior, saying she was a "beautiful, warm, and affectionate" woman, and "everybody lovers her." However he said he'd asked her not to go jogging with Luke. We do know that John asked her to stop jogging with Luke. We don't know what has happened since then. It is only speculation. As is everything else. If Kathy is still jogging with Luke, then this has been going on for sometime now and it is a church matter for the elders and members of the church to handle. In which case Christians are the better source of advice. The minister is held to a higher standard with or without knowledge. The minister is the head of his household first before he is a minister and if his household isn't in order then he needs to focus on it first and have someone else shepherd the flock. Last May, a few parishioners who attended a dinner/dance fundraiser witnessed Luke and Kathy holding each other in a long embrace with their eyes closed after John left to bring the car around. I have two questions of my own. How is it that endures4evr knows so much about this but doesn't seem to have witnessed any of it? And two, has anyone told John or Luke's W about the inappropriateness of their spouses socializing since last May? This does need to be done. Aside from that regardless of whether the A is going on or not, there are other problems within the church. The gossip has got to stop. Endures4evr can be a part of the solution by telling anyone that wants to gossip about the minister and his W, to go straight to the minister and his W and tell them what they were about to tell endures4evr; no one else. A lot of the speculation should be cleared up if and when endures4evr posts again. Blessings to you all. S&C
No man likes to have his intelligence or good faith questioned, especially if he has doubts about it himself. - Henry Brooks Adams
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The pastor was aware of his wife's last affair at the former church, which is why they left that church and applied to our church. The Search Committee who hired him was not told about his wife's affair, and the minister probably thought or hoped getting a new church would enable him & his wife to start fresh. [color:"orange"] [/color] waterfalls02333@yahoo.com
"That's the sign post up ahead. Your next stop. The twilight zone."--Rod Serling
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I'm sorry Endures4evr, I was writing my post the same time you were. So please ignore the areas you covered in your post. I figured there was more information you had to offer.
Some of it is still valid though. Gossiping stops when you won't let someone else tell you something about someone else. Especially if they haven't told that person yet.
Your elders should be made aware of the situation and only from the things you yourself have witnessed. You can tell them about others that have said they have witnessed things.
The minister needs to be lovingly approached by the elders and informed of his responsibilties to his W and his flock and given an opportunity to do right by scripture.
No man likes to have his intelligence or good faith questioned, especially if he has doubts about it himself. - Henry Brooks Adams
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