LA,

Thanks for always being RIGHT HERE and being willing to help us (dozens, hundreds, maybe eventually thousands) grasp ownership of our choices.

It's lifechanging for me and now for my husband. He says "thanks" to you, too. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Ace

LA,

In case you missed the recent debate about me being here it is happening again. I say this to you because I don’t know if you want to respond to me or not. FH started a thread to me called JustJilly How are you doing? Because I hadn’t posted for awhile and that thread started the debate about my presence here hurting BS and FWS. I know you to be very sensitive to other’s feelings so I wanted to let you know that this is happening again so that you can make your own choice again about whether you want to post to me anymore etc.


This is me writing in WORD. LOL.
Let me preface this by saying that the first part of this was written prior to yesterday and then H and I had the worst fight we have had since D-day yesterday. I will go into that further down and let you know where the first part ended and what was written after… it matters I think.
“When it comes to permissions...what we allow ourselves to do and not do...it isn't blanket revocation...as in regards to your meds...because if we reach THIS level, then it's okay...relapses occur...your basic premise hasn't changed. You need those meds so they can't be wrong for you.”


I am not sure I understand the meaning of blanket revocation. Could you clarify your definition of it so we are on the same page when discussing it? I am going to respond anyway and then if I am missing the boat you can let me know.

Are you saying that if I changed my premise then I might have more success? I think meds and me are a slippery slope. I think where I get into issue is when I giving myself permission when it isn’t for a physical pain issue. So yes on some level I think my pretense hasn’t changed. I think that permission slides over under high stress situations and when emotional pain reaches 50 feet…

To me blanket revocation means taking away your permission to ever do something again. Like I have blanket revocation with myself regarding A’s. I have revoked that permission from myself permanently. But others would disagree that I have because they strongly believe that I am still committing an A by being married to my H. I don’t think by their standard I am revoking any permission… that I am still actively committing adultery. But by my meaning of it… meaning I will not go outside this M. I cannot change the past. I have to live with the consequences of my actions but I am still trying to make amends… I see that.

“Getting to why I believe I need what I need when something hits a certain intensity...well, I haven't figured that out. The reason I revoked my permission to LB was for me, about me...not who I really was...irrelevant of stress or levels...

Somehow, when stress reaches a certain heighth, my permissions kick in again.

Where does that come from? Want to explore it together?”

I get what you are saying here… that you revoked your permission to LB for YOU. Do you think that there are certain behaviors… coping skills that even though we revoke them are still on some level our safety net? Like I am not going to do that… I am choosing not to do that but I know it is still there… then when stress gets above the tipping point the entitlement to fall into the safety net still exists within us as a safety net. Even though it isn’t what we want… it happens. We can manage stress up to a certain point and we maybe we also try to “control” it from getting above the tipping point (50 feet… 1000 feet whatever it is for us.) yep management through control.

I don’t know if that is what you do… I think it might be what I do… hmmm?

“If we don't revoke the permission...and we do it through denial alone...then we live in deprivation. If we ascertain this is a false need...then we live in freedom.”


Insightful… and taking it further if we live in the idea of denial (as a punishment) then it would also seem that some sort of reward system might also be in play. If you live in deprivation through denial I see where relapse becomes even more likely to occur… especially if my pretext is denial and not examining the idea of false needs and how that could mean living in freedom.

“I got that. I know that denying myself is sacrifice (I deserve to AO...anyone wood...I won't because I take the high road and I refuse to get on his level) which is fantasy and resentment...”

Yep… I see that and honor you for the courage to acknowledge it and see the truth.

“Admitting, embracing, knowing that's not who I am gets me to 50 feet.”

Wait I am not sure I get what you mean here… took me a couple of reads and I am still not sure. Is admitting and embracing what keeps you below 50 feet or what takes you all the way there… to that stress level. Is there entitlement because you take the high road and taking the high road isn’t the easy road… it is harder so I deserve this? To AO or LB or DJ or whatever it is that maybe has to do with entitlement and do you think permissions might kick in when entitlement comes out?

I think it does for me. Yes, I am struggling with the Cass issues and I am keeping them to myself. Keeping secrets … cover up shame… publicly… Don’t gossip. Learned in childhood… What if keeping something in is causing self destruction because it is violating personal boundaries. Then add the amends for life piece and wow I guess I can see where my entitlement to permit kicks over and reaches the tipping point. What happens if I stop doing this. Stop saying I owe you for the rest of my life and stop owning Cass’s choices. Hmmm there’s a thought.



“Why only 50 feet?”

I don’t know… are you scared of heights… literally… figuratively? I am scared of heights… literally. Full on panic… my dad’s house has this balcony… I don’t know if it is 50 feet but it would estimate it to be about the same as standing on the average roof. There is a guard rail there. I can go out the slider but I don’t like going to the edge of the rail. I don’t like DD to go out there at all. When I was a little kid right after my folks got divorced my dad lived in an apartment briefly… second story. The stairs were outside and were cement slabs on a metal frame. I was terrified I would fall through the spaces between the steps. On vacation this summer we stayed in a hotel that had these same steps… DD was scared on them. I still don’t like them much now but I know I am not going to fall through.

Is there a fear about going above 50 feet? What will happen if you do? Will you AO or LB or DJ? What would happen if you did? Would you self depricate? What was your thought process after you AO’d?


“Sounds like you broke the surface and took some air in realizing how incredibly stressful Cass's A affects your family, your selves...your children.

And I think this issue begins and ends with you...because the rest is out of your control.” Amen sister… because it is crazymaking any other way. It’s been hard for me to separate my ownership of my own destructive choices and blaming myself for hers. The amends for life piece. I own what I did… I get the magnitude of annihilation and devastation after experiencing it. That said… I did not cause her to choose to have A#1 or A #2 and I am not responsible for the devastation she has caused. Because I have played out that if I hadn’t done what I did scenario over and over in my head I started owning her choices or at least on some level blaming myself.

“I think you're feeling abhorred and mollified at the same time over Cass's behavior (and not for the first time)...would you say that each time she does this, breaks apart a marriage, you feel a little more relieved of breaking apart her marriage? And abhorred given now you know the devastation...as you said, the complete annihilation you felt...and so thinking of BW causes a lot of pain inside you.”

I think you are right… and yes it probably on some level eases my own sense of guilt… and YES knowing really knowing what it feels like to be BW does cause a lot of pain for me. And it bothers me that I know that I caused her this pain even if she denies it… says she wasn’t mad etc. I talked with DH about this last night and I expressed that even if I wanted to get a D or break up in past R’s I still would have been pissed and hurt to find an A. It certainly wasn’t my truth with DH and things weren’t great in our M when his recent A happened… it was still like being hit by a semi going really fast. It broke me. So why she may claim that wasn’t her truth… truth is I don’t believe her. I think your right when you say it wayward thinking on her part… because she is wayward now again.

To justify what she is doing she has to act like it doesn’t hurt that bad to be the BW because it alleviates some of her guilt about what she is doing. She knows it’s wrong.


“At you.

And at Cass.

And humans.

And the world.”

A strongly resounding YES.

“Where's the zero tolerance policy for teachers having A's? The crossing of the line with a student's mother? With anyone? Could this indicator of Hassle and the rest (everyone BUT BW!) within your school district God's way of saying get on it...with consequences?”

Excellent question LA… and yes I think there should be consequences but instead they do a cover up. It isn’t just this district either… it was in my previous district and no one did anything about it. EVER. I think the cover up happens because they want to do damage control… they don’t want this getting out to parents. I have some other theories I’ll go into when I have more time to give this particular point because it warrants more discussion.

“Because the decimation of marriage has lifelong impact...you know...look at DSS...because he wants to matter...and he's erased...and he's sick of it. First his father...and yes, he was young...but he wasn't worth staying for...and then his mother...and his mother again...and he has nowhere to fall...no one is being loyal to him.”

You have a very valid point.



“Choosing him. And he's their son. Your son.

Choose him.

Back him...Cass doesn't need understanding...she's been enabled her whole life...victim who victimizes...stand up to her. Say, "I destroyed your family. You've destroyed two more outside and one inside, twice. Stop it. Until you stop seeing OM and go no contact, we will fight for sole custody of SS. We can't change our past actions...we know the consequences keep going on...but for him, his life, we will do this. He's worth it. He's your son."

Man you nailed that one… the victim who victimizes. I talked to DSS about what he wants. He said to move to different class(which we did) and to have NC with OM when he is at Cass’s house. She has agreed to do this. We told DSS that if NC is broken then we will come and get him and that he will not have to go over there if he chooses not to see her. This is a bigger step for me than for DH because DH wishes she would move away and never see him. I think he wrestles with that… what would be easier versus best for SS in the long run. He has a lot of anger toward Cass right now… and his is more outward. I think my pattern has been to instead of AO to AI (anger inburst or implosion) thus causing negative and resentful feelings. I think I have some issues from my own childhood in motion here. My mom moved us out of state and we essentially had very little contact with my dad for over 3 years. My mom did it and my dad didn’t fight for us to stay… he let us go. He had his new family. That’s how it felt. So I think some of that is in play here. I don’t want SS not to have a R with his mom. I also don’t want him spending time over there when it causes him so much pain either.

She isn’t going to stop LA. At one point I said to her… his BW doesn’t want this… she wants the M. I asked her if she would be willing to step aside and let them work on their M. She said she had offered this to MM but he said he didn’t want to try to work it out… wanted the D and that was all the permission she needed. She told me if he would have even said he was confused about it she would have backed off but I don’t know if she actually would have or not… she’s wayward… like you said… like I know. Waywards are selfish. They don’t think they are but they are. I was. H was.

My primary responsibility is well being of DSS not Cass. I know this. He lives with us and she has him every other weekend.

Okay… this is where I had stopped and previously writing.

Yesterday I was suppose to go to my night class and I have about an hour and 15 minutes between work day end and time to be at class. I asked DH if he wanted to watch a program we usually watch together before I go on Thursdays. First he said yes and then he said NO I don’t want to watch that with you. I asked if he was mad at me and he said Yeah… I am. I asked why.

DH has always known about my posting here… and has seen me sitting typing posts many times. Like I mentioned SF (a high EN for him) hasn’t been going so well. It isn’t like he hasn’t spelled this out for me clearly that this need is very important to feel connected. I have not been meeting that need well and haven’t been that sensitive about it. I have been withdrawn again. He has been really trying in a lot of different ways to meet my needs and I have not been trying that hard to meet his.

So he tells me the reason he is mad is because the last few days he had logged to MB and read a bunch of my posts. He was really mad. Furious really… accused me of having emotional affairs with the people I was posting here with… getting some of my EN’s met here and that was basically the same thing that happened with Hassle and him. I argued that it was NOT the same thing… that he had always been free to read my posts etc… I wasn’t hiding my posting … it’s an open forum etc.

But he was really mad… stemming from his own deep fear that I will have an A or leave him. I was mad (yep me mad) that he got that from anything I ever wrote here because although I have shared my own issues he felt like I was bashing him and feeling sorry for myself. (This was his anger.. fear really speaking.)

Then to read stuff that he felt like I hadn’t shared with him with you and since FH and MM are men well you get the gist. Anyway AO’s and DJ’ (on both sides… I lost my footing and I was really angry… yep fear too) were flying. Then that same awful anger to the point of him threatening to leave. I own that I contributed to provoking part of it.

I know that it must not have felt very good to read some of the stuff I posted here and especially some of the stuff I hadn’t really been O&H with him about. I hadn’t shared with him that I relapsed. He also felt like I was airing our dirty laundry too.

I felt really bad about that he felt like I was having and EA (yeah even with you LA he felt that I was getting some needs met outside the M.) I felt remorseful that my posting hurt him. Fear took ahold and it was not pretty. I was really pissed that he would compare the Hassle thing with my posting (which was never a secret) but at the same time I felt really upset that it hurt him too.

He gets so mad… and has big AO’s or rather loud AO’s. I become passive aggressive when this happens. I have control over this but I wasn’t choose to act I was only reacting. There was the FU’s and the FOff’s and the door slamming. My anger implodes and I don’t say FU or F’off I just fume internally until I break and act out like slamming a door… or locking the door to the master.

He used to get mad at me when I would cry and say things like I can’t talk to you when your like this. I think he used to see it as me trying to make him feel sorry for me… instead this is the way I release anger and sadness. He has stopped saying that kind of thing to me but the fear that he will is still there and it went on high alert because I was REACTING not acting to his anger which I knew deep down was fear.

So I locked him out and went into the bathroom and sobbed. One of the reasons I don’t like to cry (I have been like this for a long time) is that when I really cry hard it is hard for me to stop. When I think about it right now from my H on the other side of that… what it might feel like to see that much pain in someone you love and to feel like you contributed to it… probably doesn’t feel very good. I think shame occurs here too…

Shame on my end for feeling like I inflicted pain on him the way I felt after Hassle. Shame on his part for letting his anger escalate to the point where he stopped monitoring what he was saying to me and just (hmmm thinking about permissions here to because most of the time now he doesn’t AO like that… but he hit the tipping point yesterday… wherever that is for him and blew. His permission to AO kicked in and he let loose.) Much later last night we were able to talk.

His reaction to my posting was like I have beat myself up over, felt guilty and full of shame, worked to make things in our M better and no matter what I do it isn’t getting better for me. My W is never going to get over the Hassle thing it will always be thrown back in my face. I have done so many things to try to meet her needs and she isn’t meeting mine. She relapsed with her meds when I have gotten clean… I send her flowers, help with the chores around the house… am thoughtful, tell her she’s beautiful and for WHAT she is still wrapped up in her own pain and I am bleeding over here too.

All of that stuff is truth… his truth and partly THE truth too. He started defending the Hassle thing saying it wasn’t any different (which hurt a lot and felt like wayward thinking and minimizing again… I mean he has owned it ALL of it and then to go back to defending and minimizing it really really hurt.)

So after locking him out and crying he came through the slider into the master and was mad because I had locked him out. Yeah it was passive aggressive on my part like a physical act of what I was doing emotionally… locking him out. So he goes into the den and slams the door. Then I came out and started slamming around. Then I banged on the den door hard on my way down the hall. Not exactly the greatest choice on my part but some permission in me that I haven’t let out for a long time… to get THAT mad and act like that kicked into overdrive. He reacted. He came out and we got into again and it just kept escalating to the point of him saying he was leaving and going to a hotel for the night.

Every fear inside of me reacted. I begged him… pleaded with him not to go. I said if you leave it is going to scare the kids who were outside playing when most of this happened. I am sure I was a pretty pathetic mess. Anyway he agreed not to go for the kid’s sake but said not to talk to him for the rest of the night.

He went back in the den and I went back in the master. Awhile later I ventured out and he wasn’t in the den and I was worried that he had left. He was lying on the couch in the living room. I went back in the master for a while but I just felt so bad that I didn’t honor not speaking to him. I went to the couch and I put my hand on him and said I was sorry and that I loved him. The anger was spent but the sadness remained in both of us.

I could not stop crying and he let me cry offering his arms. He said he was sorry about the things he said. Said he was acting out of fear… his anger was about his fear that I will leave him. I chose to believe that he was being open and honest and real about his fears. After we were able to agree that we need some MC. We need church.

I think after reading here… and he read the most recent FH thread to me… and the responses from the BS’s that don’t like that I am here he felt hurt by what they were saying much the same way I did when I first came. I think it hurts when some posters take the stance that neither he or I will ever change. We are nothing more than unrepentant sinners whose marriage will never be okay in the eyes of God. It goes back to the debate of salvation as a gift from God to us or the idea that salvation is earned by works and the works that would “earn” our salvation is a divorce. According to some that is the ONLY way we can be saved.

I cannot change what I have done in the past. But I will not slap God in the face by saying that the sacrifice of his Son was not enough to save any of us. None of us can ever merit this gift… none of us a worthy of it. He knew none of us could ever be “good” enough to be worthy of it… we can never earn it no matter how good or righteous we try to be. I will never be worthy of this sacrifice.

DH really felt the impact that his words said in anger have. I think truthfully that after this happened… he really gets that our words said in anger although we can apologize for them cannot be taken back… erased. His remorse over this was clear to me. His fear that I would be unable to forgive him and leave him was very deep. Again he had to look at the full weight of his actions with Hassle… and his words to me.

He sent me an email at work saying how sorry he was again and that he wished he could start over without the anger. He had said after reading some of the posts that those would have been some good conversations we could have had. He felt upset that I hadn’t tried to talk to him about some of those things. He has a valid point there.

When I got home from work DH wasn’t here. When it got past the time he is usually home by I got a little worried. I called him on his cell and he said he forgot about a meeting he had after school. He said he would be home in about half an hour. He called later to say he was stuck at a train that wasn’t moving. I didn’t hear any train. I felt like he was lying to me but I felt like my own fear was driving me to be untrusting so I went along with what he was saying.

When he got home he came in an laid down on the bed with me. I could feel how deeply he needed to feel that I forgave him and needed to feel safe. The anger… the fear… all of it washed over me because I could see my DH’s heart. We have hurt each other so much. We have choices about how to proceed. We can choose to stop doing this. Recognizing my H’s own fears is a gift to me. It takes me out of my own selfish mindset and into the reality that I am not the only person who is hurting in our M.


After some quality UA time together DH said he had something to tell me and show me. I was confused because I wondered what he was going to tell me. It was a gift. He had hidden under the bedcovers. We had been in the other room and he said that we should sit down on our bed to talk. When I pulled the covers back there was a long black jewelry box. I hadn’t expected this. It was a very beautiful, very expensive diamond bracelet.

There was no meeting after school… no train. He had been at the our jewelers. He said he had originally gone in to find a ring for me… a ring that would signify his promise to me to stay in this marriage and he wanted a physical representation that I could look at every day to remind me of this promise. Yes, partly he also wanted me to know how really sorry he was about everything that we have been through but more as a promise for the future. He said he couldn’t find a ring he liked so he got the bracelet. The bracelet is beautiful to me but the thought behind it and the idea that he wanted me to have something physical to look at to remind me and himself of his commitment to our future was more beautiful.

So we have recommitted to working harder on our M, through MC, church, and since my H has actually read here and after discussing some of the MB principals with him again I asked if he would be willing to do the EN questionnaires again. He said print it out and we will do it again and this time really work on it. I had printed it out and we had sort of done it after D-day but I think doing it again now will provide us better insight because I think we both realize we want to try harder to meet each other’s EN’s and understand how we have some that are very different. It’s an important step I think. MC is also something that we had talked about before but didn’t do. I went to IC and H had said he would go to MC but I feel like until now he wasn’t really committed to really give MC a chance and I think we both see know how much we really need MC too.

LA~ I am really struggling with the latest thread about me being a member of MB. Am I being completely insensitive to all FWS and BS by posting here? I keep my posting limited to you and FH/MM. I stay off almost all threads except villagers and JJ specific threads. There is suggestions from BS and some FWS that FH (and my guess is that this thought would also be directed toward you since you post to me here) that those who talk to me do it off this board by email or some other form. I cannot email with FH. I don’t think that would be appropriate… not because I don’t respect him but because I do. Awhile ago MM told me he never emails with married women. I respect that boundary.

I have always respected that this board dismantled the PM feature. Seems like a good choice to me.

I have said it before, I don’t wish to cause more pain to anyone here. I have tried to be sensitive to the fact that my presence here is offensive to others. Since I have no other way of contacting you… I am asking you this here. I know that you have been willing to help me. I also know you aren’t insensitive to others feelings.

I do agree with FH’s point that no one here is required to read anything I post. It is there choice. There are some who if someone doesn’t know my sitch have made it their personal mission to make sure they know what it is before they “waste” any of their time talking to someone is an “affair marriage”. I have learned that all of us are responsible for our own choices and I am wondering if those that are offended by me could choose to put me on ignore user and then they would never have to read another word I post.

I feel very unsettled and conflicted by this.

And to DH if you happen to be reading this… thank you for all the changes you have made in yourself and for owning your choices time after time.

LA,

Can you please let me know if there is some way I can contact you email or some other way outside of this board.

This thread will explain to you why I am asking. Please read the whole thing so you will understand why I am asking you.

This thread

I don't know any other way to get in touch with you and I would like to be able to.

JJ,

What a coincidence (not)...just now, for the first time, I clicked on FH's thread where he called out to check on you when we weren't hearing anything. I didn't before because I look at those threads as intended to be between the poster and the person called out to...

I hadn't seen this thread bumped, and kept seeing that one going and going, so I thought I'd check in on it, finally--occurred to me that maybe you didn't want to post updates both places.

Silly me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I'm so glad I check my DJs at the door, eh?

And yes, here is my email address ...
I'll reply to your post here in email.

See, I know there's a lesson in all of this...when I don't see it, I trust God to know it for me. I don't see your posting here as approval of affair marriages...my perspective was there is benefit in seeing someone through their life after this choice...that it isn't the fantasy continued...that it is a rocky, piercing place...where the same conclusion is reached as it would have been through any other path available...to come to your own choices, own them and work on yourself...as we all do...

The labels strike my heart, also, JJ. I was an OW once, before I married...even had an OC...and I didn't think of my son that way until coming here. I'm still probing and learning from that, even today, 21 years later.

I was a serial cheater...and now, I am not. All the labels listed on the threads which ask for your removal are my past labels, too.

And I don't have the same perspective about dissolving this marriage for you because of the children involved...a baby girl who loses, bears a lifetime of consequences, splitting her mother and father (though I do know how important it is to realize she bears consequences for that choice, anyway); and for the SS who aches, hurts and longs to have one family, not divided...

And I have put my mind to see you as my WH's OW...as if you and he married and had a child together, leaving my DS's in your SS's position...

You are not her.

You are JJ...and I was led to post to you, to get all of my lessons...in reflection, highest honesty, to grow from and to a new place I cannot label because I haven't been there.

I know I was God-directed. I have no doubt. And I believe that protecting people from further pain is exactly what I did when I was in a wayward state of mind...my controlling others' choices, choosing for them...and I remember how destructive that was to others and to myself.

I also believe in BS's and FWS's more...because they, too, learn their choices are half of their relationships...and I remember clicking on many threads, when I wanted to self-stab, cry harder, feel deeper...and it helped me to know my power, my limits...the only way I knew how...by doing, and hurting, and coming around again to my own choices...

Wasn't about me hurting more...infidelity is like a room filled with all nitrogen...no room for more hurt...it's full already...and yes, I believe we can experience our pain as if there is more, worse, more harrowing and as if anyone had the power through posting to change it all...make it worse. We can really experience that as if it were real...and it's not. Our pain remains our own...our signal...and through it, we learn and know and grow and thrive.

My beliefs.

And running from those signals is how we went wayward in the first place...false solace and justifications. We were attempting to change how we felt through actions, not our beliefs...and our fog, from resentment and lack of respect, grew and choked us...and yes, we chose our actions even to not hurt the OM...be concerned about his stuff and not our own real loves...

So if you are sure you aren't running...if you are sure you are choosing to do this for your own honor, beliefs, and your honest way of serving God who brought you here...then I will respect your choices and make my own.

LA

LA,

“What a coincidence (not)...just now, for the first time, I clicked on FH's thread where he called out to check on you when we weren't hearing anything. I didn't before because I look at those threads as intended to be between the poster and the person called out to...”

I don’t believe in coincidences anymore. I believe there is always a reason.

“I hadn't seen this thread bumped, and kept seeing that one going and going, so I thought I'd check in on it, finally--occurred to me that maybe you didn't want to post updates both places.”

“Silly me. ”

“I'm so glad I check my DJs at the door, eh?”

“See, I know there's a lesson in all of this...when I don't see it, I trust God to know it for me. I don't see your posting here as approval of affair marriages...my perspective was there is benefit in seeing someone through their life after this choice...that it isn't the fantasy continued...that it is a rocky, piercing place...where the same conclusion is reached as it would have been through any other path available...to come to your own choices, own them and work on yourself...as we all do...”

I don’t believe I’ve ever given any advice that would remotely suggest that I think anyone here is giving approval of my affair marriage. I would not advise anyone to marry their OP. I cannot go back. I cannot change the past. I do not believe divorce is the answer here. That is my belief. Many others can and do disagree. Their choice… their belief. I accept that.

And no… it isn’t “fantasy” continued. My life is real now… full of all of the consequences of my choices. I have made amends to the actual people in my life who have been hurt by my choices. I have owned my choices about my M. My path was my path…. Different then others’ paths and my conclusion are mine too. I am now working on myself… and this is MY journey.


“The labels strike my heart, also, JJ. I was an OW once, before I married...even had an OC...and I didn't think of my son that way until coming here. I'm still probing and learning from that, even today, 21 years later.”

I was a WW and the OW. I married my AP. I am also a BS. My H is a WH and the OM. He married his AP. He became the OM and WH again. He chose this time to become the FWH. He chose to end his A and commit to our M. This time I chose my M. We chose to stay M and not get a D. I have a very special DSS13 and a very special DD7. We as humans do a lot of labeling. If we chose to believe that those labels define us as people then some of those labels will continue to strike our hearts.

“I was a serial cheater...and now, I am not. All the labels listed on the threads which ask for your removal are my past labels, too.”

Your past… who you were then and the choices you made then do not define who you are today anymore than the choices I made then define who I am now. The poet Maya Angelou says “When we know better, we do better.” We know better now… so we make different choices now. It doesn’t erase the past. The past remains the past… a part of the journey that brought us to today… and the choices we make in today. There are no do overs. We can only go forward on our journey. We make choices here about whose journeys we will choose to be a part of.

“And I don't have the same perspective about dissolving this marriage for you because of the children involved...a baby girl who loses, bears a lifetime of consequences, splitting her mother and father (though I do know how important it is to realize she bears consequences for that choice, anyway); and for the SS who aches, hurts and longs to have one family, not divided...

And I have put my mind to see you as my WH's OW...as if you and he married and had a child together, leaving my DS's in your SS's position...”

I know you don’t have the same perspective that I should dissolve my marriage. I also know that you don’t have the perspective that I should stay in my marriage either. Your perspective remains that that choice is mine to make. There are 2 children in this family. They don’t have a choice. They’ll live with the consequences of my past actions and they live with the consequences of the choices I make today. I don’t believe that God wants me to destroy their family. This is my belief. Others can choose to disagree. Their choice.

“You are not her. “

You’re right LA, I am not her. I am not anyone else here’s OW or WW. If they choose to see me that way that is their choice. It’s not real. If they choose to stab themselves with the perception I cannot stop them. It is fantasy to go there… believe that I am their worst fear actualized. I am not. I have no power over what happens in their lives.

I cannot hurt any BS here because I am not their spouse. I am not the OP in their life. If they choose to see me that way, I cannot stop them from doing that. If anyone chooses to live in the fantasy that I am capable of causing any BS further pain because my being here makes them feel worse… they can choose to do that. My intent isn’t to hurt any BS here. My intent here is NOT to suggest to a WS that leaving their M, divorcing their spouse, and marrying their OP is a good choice. If a WS is reading something I have written then they will read that infidelity carried over into my current M. If a BS reads, they too will read that infidelity carried over into my current M.

People can choose to believe that I got what I deserved. I can choose whether or not I accept their belief as my own. I can choose to stab myself over and over with other people’s beliefs about me. I can choose to define myself by those labels. My choice.

“You are JJ...and I was led to post to you, to get all of my lessons...in reflection, highest honesty, to grow from and to a new place I cannot label because I haven't been there.”

And you are LA… who I was led to post to also. Your choice is to believe that we have lessons to learn from each other. I am also growing to a new place that I cannot define yet because I don’t know where this road will take me. And I have gotten lessons here from reflection, from sharing, from finding highest honesty and learning about my own beliefs, finding my code, learning about my own boundaries, what they are and how to enforce from. How to live from my code.

It is a choice for me to be here with you and you with me. No one else has to participate or read this. I learned that here from you… that we have absolutely no control over anyone other than ourselves. Doesn’t mean I don’t still fall back into old beliefs and try to control others. It’s a process of learning and owning and reflecting and knowing our beliefs… truly knowing them from our highest honesty. When I violate my code, I amend and reflect. I ask myself is that my belief… if the answer is yes… and I have acted outside my belief then I ask myself why… what was the false payoff. I try to identify so I can find my own awareness.

“I know I was God-directed. I have no doubt. And I believe that protecting people from further pain is exactly what I did when I was in a wayward state of mind...my controlling others' choices, choosing for them...and I remember how destructive that was to others and to myself.”

I do believe that choosing to believe that we can control other’s choices is destructive to me and to others. I cannot control anyone’s beliefs, choices, actions… I can only control my own.

“I also believe in BS's and FWS's more...because they, too, learn their choices are half of their relationships...and I remember clicking on many threads, when I wanted to self-stab, cry harder, feel deeper...and it helped me to know my power, my limits...the only way I knew how...by doing, and hurting, and coming around again to my own choices...”

I also believe that we are half of our relationships… our half. We cannot control our partners or their choices… that’s their half. It is healing to me to know my own power, limits, and growth from my own hurting.

“Wasn't about me hurting more...infidelity is like a room filled with all nitrogen...no room for more hurt...it's full already...and yes, I believe we can experience our pain as if there is more, worse, more harrowing and as if anyone had the power through posting to change it all...make it worse. We can really experience that as if it were real...and it's not. Our pain remains our own...our signal...and through it, we learn and know and grow and thrive.”

There is ownership in what you say here. We cannot change others’ pain. It is theirs… real and raw, deep and harrowing. We can choose to support others here… each person here makes their own choice about who they post to or don’t post to. I accept that. No one has to accept me. Others can choose to believe that I am insensitive to others’ pain. I am not.

“My beliefs.”
And your beliefs make you who you are. Just as each person’s does. We are all humans… defining ourselves through our beliefs. We can choose to define ourselves through our own beliefs… where I believe our growth comes from… from knowing our own beliefs and acting from those beliefs. My confusion sets in when I begin to believe that I start trying to define myself from what other people believe about me. Doesn’t mean I cannot respect that they have their own beliefs… just as real and valid as mine are.


“And running from those signals is how we went wayward in the first place...false solace and justifications. We were attempting to change how we felt through actions, not our beliefs...and our fog, from resentment and lack of respect, grew and choked us...and yes, we chose our actions even to not hurt the OM...be concerned about his stuff and not our own real loves...”

I know this too. I have run and run over and over. It was my way for so long. Disowned my self, others, self abused and abused others. I can only break my own wayward cycle. I cannot break anyone else’s cycle. I don’t have that power. Never did no matter how much I previously believed that I did.

“So if you are sure you aren't running...if you are sure you are choosing to do this for your own honor, beliefs, and your honest way of serving God who brought you here...then I will respect your choices and make my own.”

My choice is to be here on this thread with you. A thread where I asked for your permission to join… and where permission was given. I will choose to stay within my boundaries here. I will choose to amend for where I violated my own boundaries and others.

LA,

I wanted to share with you.

Last night DH and I shared our EN questionnaires with each other. DH was hedging about doing it even though he had already filled his out. I was able to use my *I* statements with him.

I said, I hear you don't want to share this with me right now... is this right? Then he went into reasons... like stuff about how the questionnaire may be skewed... how it could have been how he was feeling when he filled it out etc. I said, "I hear you saying that you are afraid to share with me because you are worried that I will take something out of context or that you are worried that something you wrote will hurt my feelings? Is this correct? He shared that yes he was worried about that and also that he was afraid to hear what I had written.

I said that was good to know. I said that for me this was only a tool to help us have a way to talk about our needs and that I really wanted to know his needs so I can try to meet them better... no hidden agenda. I reassured him that I would not take what he said as negative criticism but rather as insight.

I said "I hear you don't want to do this tonight... when would you like to do this?" He said, "Now, I guess." I said," I don't want you to feel pressured to do this now if you don't really want to do this now. We don't have to do this now." He said, "No, now is okay."

We both stated that we felt nervous to share. We weren't sure how if there was a certain way to do this so we just traded papers and then went through together each need and talked about them.

When I was ranking my needs (I think I missed this part of Harley's statement the first time I did EN questionnaire... the part on the ranking where it says if you could only have one need met in your M which would it be and which need would you be most the happiest knowing that all other needs would go unmet.) This part was hugely important to me because I really thought about which one I needed most to make me happy. I was actually surprised by what I needed. My #1 need is for affection followed by #2 O&H.

I was way more honest this time when I did it. I think last time when I did it I was trying to think of what I thought DH would want...DJ to DH and to self for this. This is me patting myself on the back for choosing differently this time... for being courageous in my honesty to self and to DH.

So when we shared about affection (it's the first one order wise on the survey) I cried and shared with DH that I didn't realize how important this need was for me until I thought about how I would feel if this need wasn't met. This also happened to be DH's #1 need too. We were able to share with clarity what this means to each of us. I had put that I needed affection 3-4 times per day... DH put once a day but after we shared DH said no that he needed more than once a day too. It wasn't that DH had been dishonest on his survey just that through discussing what that means to each of us he was able to share that he needed it more often after we talked about what we each mean by showing and receiving affection.

DH and I had also both ranked O&H as second most important need. We were able through the survey to get clarity about how we need this and to better understand what ways we are and are not meeting this need for each other. In this need DH had marked... c. open and honest with me but NOT the way I like it. I had marked b... NOT open and honest enough with me but when he does it is the way I like it.

This was important in our discussion because I learned what he needs from me... for me to be more willing to come to him and share... not wait for him to try to drag something out of me when I am choosing to withhold. Good to know for me.

DH learned that I need him to share more with me... to go deep even when he thinks it might hurt my feelings. He said that was good for him to know.

We were also able to talk about other needs... SF, DS, FS, and be honest about what we need from each other. We both cracked up because on FS where it asks how much $$$ do you want your spouse to earn we had both put ??. We were able to share that neither of us desires that the other make more $$$ but rather that both of us have a need to get spending in line and work toward a plan of getting out of debt.

This wasn't a news flash... both of us have talked about wanting to get out of debt again. I have been in charge of bill paying and budgeting for all our M. When we got out of debt before I made the plan... and DH followed whatever I said. I was able to share with him that I need him to be more involved in this. That I feel like because he doesn't like to deal with $$$ issues and he owned well here that he has readily handed over this job to me... and I was able to share that being in charge feels like being in charge of all the worry about it too. I was so proud of how DH owned his stuff about this here and we were able to agree to some conditions about how we can proceed on this where both of us will feel better about it.

I said I don't mind planning, paying etc. but want him to actively participate not just financially but in the knowing exactly what is going on with our finances because the weight of carrying all the decision making of it by myself is really taxing on me and I need his support here in other ways then just contributing $$$. He owned where he has not done this in the past and committed to being present in this now.

Who knew this was going to be this rewarding to be so honest about specific about it.

When we got to DS... I had said I wanted 10 hours a week of DS. His first reaction was 10 hours that is A LOT. But when we broke it down to what he is already doing (and I did give him a lot of positive feedback about how much I really appreciate what he already does) it isn't really that much more than he is already doing. He offered to cook more... if I would plan the menu and put out the recipe... a teamwork effort. He also asked for me to give him a list of things that he could do around the house.

I was able to share that I feel like when I start slipping on my end of DS... then it feels like the ship starts to go down. DH laughed because he said he felt that was true too. I was able to share that it is hard for me to ask for help... goes back to me believing that I have to earn love by doing. DH said put a note all CAPS in red on mirror that says..."JJ ask DH for help. DH is happy to help you." We were able to talk about some specific ways he can help and ways I can help him know how to help me.

We were also able to discuss FC and what we need from each other in that way. Our time for FC was the same... but what we need in terms of it was different and we were able to talk about it. DH was able to share that he believed that I do a good job of "doing" for the family. I help kids with homework, practicing for music lessons, etc. Where I can improve is with engaging more... in other activities with the family. I did not feel DJ'd by this because I believe this is an area where I want to improve. I was able to own where I have fallen short in this area and we were able to discuss some specific ways that I can better meet this need for my family.

We were also able to discuss SF. We were both laughing hysterically about our responses here. DH put that he was not satisfied with the frequency. He put that he would be happy with 3 times a month. I had put that I wanted once a week. I asked him if that was truthfully what he needed for SF. He said no but he was trying to consider my needs and so he thought he would give me a week off. Since this has been an area we have been having trouble with in our M... it was good to be able to laugh about it together and see that we are not too far off. DH said he would be satisfied with once a week and I agreed that I could commit to once a week. I think this is a start here. A way for us to reconnect this way where there is clarity for both of us about how often it is going to happen right now.

So we both agreed that we felt better after honestly discussing our needs.

We also discussed the need for UA conversation daily. Both of us stated a need for this and how we could do it. I shared with him your suggestion of the 20 minute flip flop. He liked that idea and also suggested some other ways too. I shared that for me what I wanted from this time was deepest O and H about him, me, and US. We shared that we could discuss day to day work issues at dinner or another time maybe steer away from work in that UA time.

Earlier before we stared sharing the EN questionnaires I had stated that I believed these things were just tools to help guide our conversations. After H stated he had a different belief about the idea of it as a tool. He stated that he felt that indeed it was a very helpful tool and that he had sort of DJ'd the idea of the tool before even trying it. He said he would be more open to using these kinds of tools in the future to help us communicate more effectively. Now I am going to go back post hunting for that book you shared with me before that you and your DH use.

We were also able to share our united desire to continue to grow in our faith individually and as a couple and that we are both committing to going to church regularly.

We didn't discuss MC during our sharing last night. I am thinking of saying something like this. "We talked about going into MC after our fight. I still really want this. I am going to look into some MC's in our area. Are you still committed to going?" If you think there is a clearer way for me to ask this... share please.

I believe we were richly rewarded for our choice to be deeply honest with the EN exercise.

** edited to add that later when we came into den for computer time DH said... go ahead and share that with your MB friend meaning YOU. He didn't say this sarastically. He said it sincerely. I thanked him for that.

JJ,

Thank you for sharing...and for doing...and being.

Yes, it is thrilling inside...was for me...laughter and tears and communicating and being startled out of our DJs...and suddenly it doesn't matter if we're right...we're married. Which is far more.

Discovering each other...there's your clean slate...and connecting through sharing. Sounds like you were aware and committed to respect...and from what I heard through your filter, your FWH was, as well.

I really like his FC request...because he sees you as excellent at doing for...and sounds to me like he was asking you to increase being with...even if you have to lesson doing for.

I agree!!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Great call...

I got granddaughter tonight...I'm off to be with more than do for, toots.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

LA

LA,

Have a listen... I like this a lot.

Square One

Whatcha think?

LA,

Yes, it is far more... and being right matters a lot less at least it does to me now. I can be heard without being right or wrong. DH can be heard and not be right or wrong. For me choosing to believe that DH's perspective is his... not to validate something for me or not to just to know it is for him... is huge.

Laughing is a good thing... nice to know we can laugh at ourselves without it being DJ.

Also, DH said he would like to give up his gym membership (since he doesn't use it anymore anyway) and use that money to pay for housekeeper. Before I would have taken that to mean that I wasn't doing enough. Now I can see it for what it is... a loving act that says I would like to contribute this. Doesn't make me lazy to accept this offer. I am not lazy.


Hope you had a marvelous time. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Rin,

I know I told you on JJBA (justjillybeginagain) that I follow your thread but from my own code... boundary enforcement that I am choosing only to post here or on JJBA. So I am going to post to you here... about your thread.

On JJBA... you said to me:



Then I said to you:



Then on your thread Talked to STBX you said:



I want to go a bit deeper with the water analogy idea. It was LA who shared with me the idea that it our "wishful child" longs for smooth sailing. And also the idea that our although our wishful child is innocent... that she can also be dangerous *if* she is the one directing our choices. It was profound for me to think about this.

So I'll go a bit deeper with that idea here.

Respecting her feelings that she wants smooth sailing isn’t dangerous unless I act from that place.

My wishful child wants M to be smooth sailing and when I operate from there… I am going to run into trouble. Because it inhibits true growth. Growth that comes from accepting that smooth sailing is an unreasonable expectation. Smooth sailing is fantasy. Lulls me into a false sense of security that if it appears like I am smoothly sailing then I can begin to act from there too… a false place. Because as humans the waters are calm and the waters are rough. It is the cycle of the water.



It is like the undercurrent. Remember as a child being told to be careful of the undercurrent in what appeared to be calm waters? Think about this… we think it is safe because it appears calm yet the undertow is still there. People have drowned in what they thought were safe waters. Because they were lulled by the safety of the calmness of the surface and by the time they realized they were in trouble… that they had been drug out by the undercurrent it was too late…

It isn’t the message I want to send to my children. If mommy and daddy aren’t fighting right now then it means that it will be smooth sailing from now on… that’s not real and it’s a false sense of security. I want them to know where their life vests are and how to use them. To know that even in the storm they are safe because they know what to do when the water gets rough instead of thinking that the water looks safe therefore it is.

The idea that we are safe even in rough waters *if* we have our life vests on. What if life vests are boundary enforcements?

What if… our inner child didn't/still doesn't know that she needed a life vest. She believed that she was safe when she wasn’t?

She didn’t really deeply know the depth of the undercurrent.
This next analogy probably isn't a great one... but I think it will get across the point I want to make. As children we liked to eat candy. Our parents told us not to eat to much at a time because it would give us a stomachache (or rot our teeth or insert whatever they told us.) They monitored how much candy we ate and so we didn't get a stomachache. So candy seemed safe... we ate it. We didn't get a stomachace.

What if we took that further... well I didn't get a stomachache. Maybe they just told me that so I won't eat more. Maybe it isn't true that I will get a stomachace if I eat more. So you venture out of the safe waters of a little candy doesn't give you a stomachache territory. You test this little theory of theirs... and eat a little more candy then they'd allowed you to. Nothing happens you don't feel sick.

You feel pretty sure now that what they told you might be false. So you choose to eat a boatload of candy and pretty soon sure enough you feel really sick... you have the stomachache they told you, you would get if you ate too much candy. So you tested the waters and learned that in fact eating too much candy in fact does lead to feeling sick. Now you believe this for yourself. You put on your own life vest when it comes to eating candy.

There can also be some danger if we choose to believe that well if FOO was right about this... then FOO must be right about everything. I say this because I have gotten stuck in that too... the belief that FOO always knows best. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> Doesn't mean FOO isn't operating from the same protective love that said don't eat too much candy. My inner child has been easily lulled many times into choosing to believe that FOO knows best. I DJ myself by underestimating my own abilitiy to discern... to know for self.


In our adult self we can put on our life vest… and stop the false assumptions that because it feels safe it is. We know it isn’t. We know deeply as adults that we need to wear the life vest. We are the stronger swimmers and we also know the deep danger of false security. If we go in without our life vest (our own code... belief system and boundary enforcements) that we are acting from our child. When we go in with the life vest we respect her with our adult beliefs that we are safe, because we know there is no such thing as smooth sailing.

When you talked to your STBXH on the phone... you said:

and then:

Rin, you have your life vest on here... you know that it is your wishful child wants that nice sweet voice... and your adult that says... no... no matter how much I want that nice voice... the sweet one... my real H. You have your life vest on because you go on to say:
You step outside of your child and know your truth... what you belief really is. You are in you awareness when you say... I do good when I don't talk to him and aware when you know that when you do talk to him and you hear that nice voice that you won't be lulled back into the dangerous waters of thinking that because he is being nice right now that it means that it is smooth sailing. Your safe because you know the difference and it doesn't mean that it isn't gonna stab... the longing for what you wish could be. You're human Rin. You are aware that you are vulnerable to that nice voice... but your code tells you... I know the danger there and I choose to act from that awareness and enforce my boundaries.

I wanted to share with you some stuff from your next post too on that thread. I see myself in that post... because I have learned that when I hurt I want to hurt back... when I hurt I DJ.

You said in your next post:

This is where you don't DJ... where you are present in your awareness. Can you stay in this belief?

For my own clarity here Rin... Who are HN1 and HN2... I am thinking these are your former neighbors... HN standing for His Neighbors or House Neighbors... is this correct?

Why did you want to throw up when she was talking to L?

I thought that I had read that you had moved out of the house and that STBX was living in the marital home but now I am not sure if this is correct because it seems like maybe now you are living there. Can you clarify for me your living arrangements? Why are H1 and H2 backstabbers? I ask for my own clarity so I can understand your belief that they are backstabbers? No DJ to you Rin for your belief that they are... I ask because *I* want to know why you perceive them to be backstabbers for my own understanding...k?

Is "they" your kids or the neighbors? Do you want your kids to wake up and smell the coffee or your neighbors? How is STBX going to hang himself? My perception is that you meant your neighbors are the ones that you wish would wake up and smell the coffee. What do you want them to see about STBX?

So is it your belief that you STBX has honed the fine art of manipulating others into believing he is the victim? That he learned this from his dad? That over the last 12 years he has really mastered this tactic?

Do you believe that STBX has successfuly "pulled the wool over other people's eyes" when it comes to you? Do you believe that they have made false assumptions about you? Do you have an expectation that if they knew the truth that they wouldn't be supportive to him? Are they being unsupportive to you? Is this what you believe? Again, I ask for my own clarity Rin... because I don't know the details of your R with your neighbor in the past vs. now.

What is *it*? What won't just go away? Your kids R with the neighbors? I am unclear about what just won't go away? Are the neighbors harming your kids?

Is the trust issue about him or about you? Are you asking if you could trust him... or you could trust you to know the truth or whether or not you are safe. Are you afraid that you might be lulled into a false sense of safety if you went back and would have nagging doubts about whether he would have really changed? What would it look like for you to be safe in that R? What would you need from STBX to believe that you would know that you were safe from potential abuse in the future? IMVHO you cannot know what will happen in the future. You cannot know if he has or hasn't changed.

Seems to me there are some tangible things he could do to help you feel more safe... like working a program, getting IC... working through the reasons why he chose or still continues to believe that on some level he has permissions somewhere that tell him he can abuse you. But even if he did do all of those things... you are still not going to know for sure that he won't abuse you again.

Here's my question... do you believe humans can change? If you do then do you believe that your H can change? I believe that anyone can change. However recently I discovered a belief in myself about own intent to change and my belief about others intent to change. We will not truly change in our core if we are trying to change because it is what we want to do for someone else. It might work for awhile.

For me the question is about my abuse of prescriptions meds. I believed I was changing and my H was too. He did... he stopped. I relapsed. Here is where I had to go deeper into my intent. Was my intent to change because that is what I wanted for me... or was it about doing it because it was in the best interest of my family. It is in the best interest of my family... no doubt about that. It is also in my own best interest... but if my intent to change is conditioned on them and not me... then I will relapse. If I perceive that they aren't worth it because they aren't doing this or that... then I am going to keep failing here. My own permission is going to kick in where I didn't even really realize I had one... I did.

The reason I share this is because if your H's intent to stop abusing is for your family... and not because he deeply knows for himself that abusing is never okay then my belief is that he will continue to relapse into abuse. If he is doing it for the family then what happens if the family does something that upsets him enough for his permission to kick in to abuse.

Not because he wants to be abusive or doesn't on many levels believe it is wrong but because his intent is to stop abusing for his family and not for him. If his intent is stop abusing for him... whether he reconciles with you or not and his intent is that he makes the choice to stop abusing period no matter who he is in relationship with then I believe he can stop abusing. But I believe that if his intent to stop abusing is conditioned only upon believing it is what he has to do to reconcile with you then I believe you are at risk for him to abuse again.

This is my belief.

I am not sure I understand what you mean by he'll protect you from OP. Did his OP physically attack you? Or did you mean that he'll protect you by no longer engaging in A's? Can you clarify your statement here?

What is the point Rin? Are you bashing yourself for hope that he could change? Do you believe that you are giving yourself false hope?

Yep... got your life vest on here too.

You see where you are going into fantasy here... future thinking... maybe one day he'll get it. But are you also owning some of his stuff here too. You hoped he would change. When you started changing and growing and stepping out of the box did you believe that he would change because you did? Are you blaming his choice to escalate his abuse... to your choice to change yourself? What is your stuff here... your half? Are you taking some of his stuff on as yours here as well? Sometimes I believe I am owning my stuff when in fact I am so busy owning other people's stuff that I can't even see my stuff. Feels like I am owning. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Whose plan? Your plan... God's plan? I do believe that there are lessons in everything that happens. Every choice you have made so far has led you to where you are right now. No need to label the choices good or bad... right or wrong. Just awareness of the choices. You are still choosing and your choices now are taking you forward on your journey. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

No you won't because you know your power here is in your choices.

In your next post you say:



Have you asked L about this? Asked him if he feels afraid when he is at dad's? Ask him Rin, for clarity for yourself and for him. Because...


Here you say that L is dreaming... but not waking up with me. Is L sharing his dreams with you or are you awakened by his dreaming? Is he saying stuff in his sleep? Do you talk to L about his dreams when he is with you? Because...




Here I see a DJ. I perceive that you are projecting your own fear here. I believe this because I do this with my kids too. Sometimes I project my own fears from childhood onto them. I have to really be aware that I do this. Do you believe that your kids feel unsafe everytime they're with their dad? Have the said this... or said things like I don't want to go to dad's this weekend? Is he abusive to them? Have they shared that he is with you?

Why did you mention to STBX that the kids don't ask for him. Did you tell him that Rin because you believed it would hurt him and you wanted to hurt him? What was your reason for telling him they don't ask for him? You say that it would be painful to you if he said it to you which is why I ask if you said it because you feel it would hurt you if he said it to you and then you say it to him. What was your intent there?

Also are you projecting that your kids cannot feel safe in an unfamilar place? Would they feel safe if you went on vacation and were staying in a hotel? That would be an unfamilar place... but is your thinking here that they would feel safe because they were with you? Just asking for you to think about this. Do you feel like the better parent when you believe that they only feel safe with you? It's not a contest to win. You are a good parent. STBX doesn't have to be a bad parent to qualify you as a good parent. You are a good parent because YOU are.

I see you sharing your own awareness here... that STBX soothed L and L wnet right back to sleep. If L really felt unsafe do you think he would have gone right back to sleep? Do you have an issue with the camper?

So on weekend number one they spent most of their time at H2's house? Is this correct? Is it your belief that STBX was neglecting his parental responsibilities by allowing them to spend so much time over there?

Regarding the bath... Would you believe about me that I am a bad parent if my DD didn't get a bath on some weekend nights or vacation days? I used to believe that about myself. I had shared this with my good friend at work... had told her that DD had played hard and then came in and fallen asleep without bathing and that I woke her up to take a bath.

Friend said, "JJ, good grief what do you think is going to happen to her if she missed a bath. Are you telling me that you think that you should wake her up to take a bath? Why? Is she going to be harmed by not bathing? She's not. It isn't like you let her go a week at a time without bathing." After she shared that with me, I stopped judging myself about that and if she falls asleep without a bath... I let her sleep.

Rin, even if they went all weekend without a bath... yeah they might be a bit dirty but you know they are going to get bathed when they come back to you so why worry about it? Is there any real harm coming from them missing a bath?

Okay then in second weekend where they spend the weekend in the camper going to the Hog Rally with an OP (I am guessing this was a woman?) they didn't know. They went to the Hog Rally that YOU were supposed to go to with STBX. Is this about your kids? Is this about you not going? About your kids being around another random OP? Find your truth here Rin. What is really bothering you here? The fact that they were in the camper all weekend? Or the fact that STBX would take some random OP to the Rally that YOU were supposed to go to? Would you have been upset if he took the kids to the Rally without random OP?

Define your issue with them spending the night at HN2's house? Do you see this as him shuffling off his responsibility for the kids onto others when he has them?

Do your kids have structure when they are with you? I believe that kids need structure too. I also believe they aren't harmed when they don't have it all of the time. We are way less structured during weekends and vacation times then we are doing the regular school week. It's one thing if you believe there is absolutely no supervision of your kids happening.

And the fast food... okay so it isn't the healthiest food for them to be eating. Are they eating it every day with you too? If not then it is probably not endangering them to eat it when they are with their dad. If he wasn't feeding them at all I would be really concerned but he is. Might not be your first choice for what they eat.

But I wonder if this isn't a matter of good parent bad parent. Does making him out as a negiligent parent boost inside you that you are the better parent? Do you need to do this to confirm that you are in fact a good parent? Rin, you are a good parent because YOU are a good parent. You don't need him to not be in order for you to be. Choose to believe you are a good parent period.

Are you DJing his parenting? Or are you really worried about the safety and well-being of your kids? Go to your highest honesty on this one Rin. For yourself so you know for you. I am learning to do this myself.

My H's XW (Cass) made the choice to buy SS a cell phone. He just proudly came home with it after being at her house. My first REaction was to DJ her for this. I was telling myself... I think she "should" have discussed this purchase with us. Blah blah blah... got myself worked up over it. H did too. We were pissed about it. Then... I stopped and asked myself this... "Would we have consulted with her about purchasing SS a cell phone?" Hmmm... honestly I don't know for sure and there is a big chance that we wouldn't have so I DJ'd her by thinking that she needed our permission to buy the cell phone when in fact she doesn't. She's his mom. The cell phone isn't going to harm him. Shoot we can even use it to keep tabs on him too. We can also choose to take it away from him if he isn't responsible with it... our choice and we can choose whether or not we consult with her if we do somewhere down the road choose to restrict him from it for some reason. CoParenting doesn't mean you have to ask the other parent about every choice you make.

Sheesh my H and I don't agree on everything about our kids either. I have to remind myself to be aware and check my own DJ's because it isn't too difficult for me to get into the mindset that what *I* believe about raising our kids is always right. My perception when I think I am right about parenting is just that... my truth. Not THE TRUTH. I do have to remind myself of that often though. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Rin, I see you making some huge growth. I post to you because I care about you and your journey. My perception about what is happening in your life is just that... my perception. I could be way off. Just sharing with you.

I now believe that continued expression of the same opinion over and over again is a form of munipulation...or a result of not feeling heard...depending on the situation...
This was the main reason why I was Petulent/facetious...I wanted people to ask me what was wrong, b/c I didn't have the courage to speak forthright about my own feelings and thoughts...
I feared this greatly...sometimes I still catch myself wondering if I'm interesting to others and if I what I have to say is worthy of being hear...if someone else thinks "wow, she's really on to something!"
When I see other people not owning their responsibilites like I own mine, it really bugs me...from my POV they are being immature and not handling their responsibilities b/c an adult takes care of that.

I was being a doormat and not caring for myself...today this is not so! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
This helped me live in the illusion of what I thought I had...I wasn't being true to myself, living by other people's standard and not my own...
There was no protection for me here, I feared being seen this way in others eyes. I feared that if I left my marriage that people who see me as being weak...when I'm really stronger b/c I left...there was a lot of fear of being judged or not believed by others too!

Thank you LA, I thought it's time for a re-eval!LMAO

(((Rinners!)))

You are PSYCHIC! I was just thinking of bumping this thread last night...and backed down from the thought. Let it flit on by.

You know what I find fascinating? The flipovers in your life since you came to MB and did this exercise...

You feared others' judgments...like living through them instead of your own...

Now you're actually living in someone else's house...and living through your own eyes...

You've reached for the support of others, not to live through, to connect with...

And it brought you to right here, right now...and you're alive, better than okay, and very aware.

How amazing is that?

Not strong, not weak...knowing your PERCEPTION of yourself...changing how you view, what you view, inside of you...

One thing to consider...where you're still hit with anger when others are irresponsible for what is theirs...

How about...before, you were overly responsible...the over-doer to his under-doer...overly doing is as harmful as not doing enough...

Now you're in the middle...you truly are doing by choice, not over or under...maybe comparing yourself...requiring of others...where you have no control...still rattles because you haven't embraced in yourself that humans do and don't do. That there should be a judgment, condemnation, correction, coercion to make them do...

Didn't work for you, did it? It took what it took and then you chose differently. Have faith, Rin. Others have their points...won't know when or how...they do...because truly...

takes what it takes...people change.

Not a doormat nor a controller...you're Rin, whole and complete as you are...continuing to discover, IMO, all of yourself...every little part...with those big ones incorporated, you may find more, tinier ones...welcome them home, too, 'k?

Ask your judgment why it's in you...

Ask your shrewd-abusive-sharp parts why they are in you...

your strong opinions...where they came from in you...why...

your naivete, petulance, insolence...

ask your insipid, your immature, what the payoff you had with them in you...why they are part of you...

same for negligent, stubborn, deceptiveness...why are they in you...

be calm and listen to them...hear them whisper...they may fear you...for you have rejected them for a lifetime...hear what they say, with your goal to accept (not approval) and understand.

What a gift you are here, Rin. Thank you so much for sticking with us, striving through...truly striving for better.

LA

HUrray, happy dance! LMAO Great minds think alike! LMAO <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Well, let's see now...funny I remember this stuff being harder to digest...LMAO <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

DING DING DING! School's in... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />


I think I'll start here b/c I feared others judging me and this was a signal to me b/c I wasn't doing what "I" need to do...Today, and I'm SOOO aware of this...I'm not concerned with what other people think of me...and it's amazing how relaxing that it...I wasted SOOO much energy that way... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

I can walk into a room and just be, whether I'm having a good day or a bad day...it is truely amazing knowing myself...even if someone did say something bad about me, sure I would think about it, turn it over, examin it but if it doesn't hold true to "MY" belief system it's tossed in the trash... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />


OKay, let's take POWS and I's, excuse me, STBX and I's, LMAO, community debt bills...now I hate that he's not as responsible as I am, that he's not current with everything, but I don't overstep my boundary anymore becasue I chose not too...I use to ask for his help with the bills, once again that partnership...being over responsible hurt me at the time...

Today, you're right I'm in the middle...he actually hurt himself pretty bad by not doing...natural consequences of his actions...I actually feel sorry for him b/c he's having to learn the hard way...I judge him and how he handles things because I want better for him...

I get angry because it's not being handled the way "I" would handle it...there's that control, but here in the pass two weeks, there's been a shift...

I called him to ask him about a certain bill...I said to him that I was not trying to tell him how to handle his business, but it might be in his best interest if he asked about interest payments and one month extensions...mentioning in passing, that was a few things that I had done to tied us over from time to time...

Come to think of it, he's the only one that I get mad at...I want better for him, it's a shame really...


For me personal, it's a way to hold myself to a certain standard, to keep myself in check...to tell me when I'm doing good and when I'm doing bad...to throw up those red flags when something not right in MY world...

Even when I judge others, it's a signal to me to say yes, I want that, I want to be like that, or no, I don't...

It's my very own security system that I really ignored for so long!



Defensive mechanicisms...used at one time to protect me...a tool I used when I didn't know any better or couldn't figure out something better to use...definitily my way of protecting myself and a way to scare people off from me...b/c if someone got to close then I might get hurt!

WHEW...LMAO...that's enough for RIGHT now... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I'll rest a little and then come back for more! LMAO <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Hellooooooooo girls! Just popping in to say hi. I am drowning in a full load of courses this summer but I check in on occasion. I miss you all. We are still recovering (yay!), some days it's a piece of cake, and other days it's still a struggle. I will try to update soon, but this thread caught my eye and I wanted to say hello. I think of you both so often - and AmI too.

Love ya lots and tater tots!

Well, Hello! I hope that you are doing great! I've missed you! I look forward to hearing an update when you geta chance! Hurray for Lizzie!

Okay, I'm ready to get the ball rolling this morning and finish what I started! LMAO <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

You know TOday I find that I'm not as strong in most of my opinions, I'm more open to hearing what other people have to say and am willing to listen; however, I find the strong opinions that I do have is in essence boundary lines for me...

What I will and will not do...expression of my moral code...how I live by that code...


I think with the insipid it was a form of self-sabboage but at the same time it pushed me to achieve...to want better for myself...where the sabbotage comes in is with OP...this is how "I" percieved what OP thought of me, so I wanted to do better to "prove" to them but really I was trying to "prove" to myself that I was worthy of OP's attention and time...

my achievements made me interesting in my eyes then, now "I" am interesting...it's no longer the self-image, the mask that I created for myself...truely a longing for acceptance...tools I used when I didn't have better...


NEgligent- I believe that this trait is in me because I am a people pleaser...I will neglect myself/have neglaected myself in order to take care of others too. I think that as a woman that we are taught this growing up...take care of the kids, the husband, and then take care of yourself...

My belief now is that if I take care of myself, then everything else will fall into place...

Other times I am negligent because I just don't want to do whatever it is...if I neglect sometimes it's a signal to me, I could be tired, overwhelmed, or it could be as plain as I just DON'T want to do it...I don't want to mess with it...perhaps it's being lazy...but I don't think so It's just something that I don't enjoy...

This is where the stubborness will come in...if it's something that I don't enjoy doing I will do whatever if takes to get out of doing it, adding in being deceptful in the process...so, in essence, all three of this traits can be self-serving...used to control things around me...a way of getting what I want...

So, here I am, wrote down for the world to see... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Look how beautiful you are, Rin, right out here in the world, shining...

I'm a tad brain dead today. I did the triathalon yesterday and I lived. I must have short-circuited a lot of brain cells in the process...so I'm going to respond to your very insightful posts soon.

Thank you, again, for continuing this exercise. How do you feel right now? What did you feel listening to hear what your villagers told you...essentially really hearing your inner self speak?

I'm proud I can still type.

LOL

I'm thinking of you...and how you've been in this triathalon for over a year...look at all your steps, your growth...and like me...you're alive. You didn't die. A few times, you may have felt you did...or parts of you...just like yesterday, for me.

On the medal it says "the woman who starts the race is not the same woman who finishes the race." How do you like that message?

(((Rin)))) <--cyber hugging doesn't hurt. How 'bout that?

LA

WOW, what a lady you are...I'm sure that you and AmI did a great job! Living is wonderful! LMAO

You're welcome, I enjoy doing the execise and I am feeling really great, excited about life, MOF!

As far as how I felt when I was doing the exercise, towards the end I was feeling extremely honest with myself, which surprised me in a way...but it was a good surprise. There was a little frustration in the middle because I felt like I was getting off track and had to ask the question over again to recenter myself.

On the first post I was rushing myself a little b/c there was a movie that I wanted to watch..."Message in a Bottle"...and b/c I volunitaried my time with weekend with the State Convention (AA) I didn't want to stay up to late. I knew that Sat. was going to be a long day and LMAO...

I didn't get home until 1am, and went right back yesterday to help out again...That was a sincere pleasure for me...

For the most part, I was calm! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

A side note, I started the weekend thinking that my "story" is not all that interesting, but by the end of the weekend I was thinking that I "COULD" be one of those people standing up there telling MY story! How great is that? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

At the end of this month, I'll be celebrating 10 months in a structures recovery program! WOW! Time has flew by and I'm loving it! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Hi, I know that you are still "healing" from the triathalon...LMAO...

I have something that I would like to explore when you get the opportunity...old behavior and a feeling of worth...

Thank you in advance for your time!

Rin,

I'm recovered. Whew. I think.

Big kudos on realizing your story matters...yes...that's you up there...and that speaker once was lost...thought his/her story was nothing...that he/she were nothing...stand and speak...know your story, your life, YOU matter.

Then you really see where every one's story matters, as well.

Glad you surprised yourself with self-honesty...I firmly believe that seeing where we self-deceive takes years to discover...layer after layer. We think we're in our highest honesty...and boom...oh, yeah? We have trained ourselves to self-deceive in many, many subtle ways...whole point is to hide it from ourselves...so of course, we're gonna surprise ourselves with each level we attain in self-honesty...we'll have the belief we have already been there, done that. We haven't.

Feel free to get off track and back on...give yourself permission and acceptance you will...for we mislead ourselves and the way we do may be the only way to see that we do...and come back again...it's like sneaking up behind ourselves when we're not looking.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I'm here for ya, Rin. Honored to be.

LA

UM...LMAO...I'd like to say that it's a state of denial but I really think that it's more of a matter of being naive...

Now, to get to the main point, I noticed when I post and ask questions that I have been having a feeling of "perhaps what I said wasn't worthy of responsing too, or, way off base, or something like that"!

Now, I've thought about it and I already know that this is about me for one...but it even goes to what I post on my thread...now I understand that I'm in a good place and that there are OP here that REALLY need some help, moreso than I do...

I was talking to my Sponsor's sponsor last night and she was saying that when she starts feeling that way that it's almost time to peel another layer back...

I was thinking that it's STILL wanting that exterioral validation...that pat on the back for good thinking, etc...
Rather than finding that validation within myself...

It's almost like feeling insecure ALL over again...

So, this is what I would like to explore some...

I also have done some work on my 4th step... however, it was an older book, so this past weekend, I made the mistake...LMAO...Yes, mistake b/c i mentioned that it was set up different and she said "WELL, JUST START OVER!"

WA! LMAO.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> So, I have plans while I'm sitting her house and dog to work my inventory this coming week...should be interesting with the boy's in tow! LMAO

Thank you for all of your hope, strenght, and experience over my time here, not to mention the fact that you are so willing to share it with others...I KNOW that you have truely enriched my life!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />