Sorry I haven’t posted in a while, SAW. Things move fast on this forum and I just hadn’t seen your thread for a while.

SAW, exposure is normally the beginning of Plan A. You expose to smash the adultery. If it doesn't work, and it usually will not, you proceed with Plan A. If Plan A doesn't work, you may need to re-expose, and then go into Plan B. Exposing while in Plan B is not routine, btw. I personally know of only one instance when SH, for example, advised exposing while in Plan B.

********


I think that's exactly the right attitude to take in her “moving out” scenario. There are those who don't see it, but Dr. Harley specifically identifies Financial Support as one of the most critical of emotional needs. It's right there on page 177 in SAA. (You have read SAA, right?) By refusing to help her set herself up in a love nest of her very own, you are pointing out to her how well you have been meeting that emotional need for her.

That's important. That's what Plans A and B are designed to do. The realization you've been meeting her needs, or are willing to meet the ones you haven't been, is what will bring her back to the marriage.

Conversely, if you meet her need for financial support by assisting her in her quest to detach from you, the message she gets is that she can get that support from you, but take her other emotional needs from the other man. That is not the signal you want to send her.

Hang in there, SAW. Set up your strategy to break up this adultery and recover your marriage. It can be done, pardner.

Thanks LongHorn. And yes, I have read SAA, although I need to reread it.

Well, today was a backslide, but an expected one to some degree. A few hours ago she told me that she was going to be cancelling the Internet (it is under her name) since if she has to take responsibility for her own bills then she will. I told her what I wanted to and it really set her off; it seems that she isn't able to understand exactly what I am saying and twists it to be worse--I had to explain myself about the deposit five times, and I still doubt she really heard me...she would just keep saying, "you have to give it to me, its mine!"

She also asked for the modem and all back today since it is hers (it was in my office with the router, she has her own comp since we both use it often)...she didn't realize though that her comp isn't setup to use the modem directly, plus this means that the bill is all in her hands with no help from me, and I will probably ask her to pay the full deposit on her own now too.

Its sometimes hard to believe that these tactics are anything but destroying the marriage at times because of how angry she gets...and I still find it hard to believe that the woman I married could ever act like this. Plus, how can't the OM see what he is doing?!

Don't worry, I know why she is angry, that I'm doing the right thing, and why they are both acting as they are...its just so frustrating, and no matter how much I understand and how much I get it...I still can't understand it at all=)

I'm very curious to see how many days it will take until she begins to open up, talk, ask for things, etc. again. I wouldn't be surprised if she is better tomorrow since that seems to be the pattern. The long-periods of time are always set off by something obscure, and not by me doing these sorts of things.

Oh! So, should I help her to move her things when she moves, and to be prepared: if she ends up asking to stay in our home after the lease is up and I have to resign it (which is her new date to move out--end of August)...what should I say? Should I tell her she can stay as long as she wants if she agrees to NC? Or is that a threat/ultimatum... maybe I should just allow her to stay as long as she chooses and continue Plan A until I move into Plan B. Any thoughts?

Friend, anger is a normal reaction to having something taken away from you. Three-year-old children do it and so do adulterers. In a way, anger from her is a good sign. The only way adulterers can do the intensely cruel things the do to their spouses and family is to suppress their sense of right and wrong. For the period of the adultery, they are similar to sociopaths in that their integrity and self-respect are exchanged for determinations of what is advantageous to their goals, and what is not. No one else in their universe is quite “real” to them. We’re all just bit players there to provide a backdrop of approving nods, winks, and applause for whatever it is they’re doing.

I think when your wife gets angry, it’s a sign her inner core of basic integrity is being tweaked again. It’s coming out of dormancy and doesn’t like what it’s seeing. Instinctively, your wife will fight that because none of us like to think poorly about ourselves or our actions. The anger will be there for a while, I think. If things go well, it will mix with depression as withdrawal begins and strengthens. Withdrawal is good, but it’s also a very trying time for both betrayer and betrayed.

Don’t try to explain things to your wife while she’s in this state. It won’t work. Remember, aliens know only “advantageous…or not-advantageous.” She can only see she wants to change the way she’s getting Internet service (to make it difficult/impossible for you to snoop on her?) and she cannot reason it through to see the problems with what she’s proposing. Warn her it’s not going to work the way she thinks it will, document what you tell her someway, and then let it go. When she comes back complaining about the extra deposit, etc., will be time enough to re-engage in a discussion with her about the subject.

They’re acting the way they are, SAW, because their minds have been taken over by aliens from the mother ship hovering over your town. Again, aliens are sociopathic and know only what is good for their adultery and what is not. They cannot reason beyond that. Do not expect any honorable treatment from the OM. If he was honorable, he wouldn’t have begun a relationship with a married woman.

No, I wouldn’t help her move out. Nothing you do to help her move out will score any points for you and it can well increase the feeling of contempt she has for you. In other words, seeing you as a wimp is not going to be terribly unattractive to her. It won’t win her back. If she wants to move out into that cold, cruel world where you aren’t taking care of her, so be it. However, if she wants it, she has to accept the burden too.

I don’t know why you’re combining a question about signing a new lease with one about whether to let her stay or not. If you have a legal question about whether you should try to get her to sign it along with you or just do it yourself, I think you’ll need to consult your attorney.

Getting her to agree to NC is not a threat and it isn’t an ultimatum, though she will see it that way. Actually, you’re setting a boundary for yourself. That boundary is simply that you will not accept a third person in your marriage.

Is August the point where you’ve planned to end Plan A and begin Plan B? If it is, then the question of telling her she can stay is moot, isn’t it?

OOh good the cavalry are here ... so now you have tow inputs. August is when she is moving out. You toe the line and do plan A until you cannot stand it anymore and it is affecting your ability to love her - and it will if you keep your boundaries clear - and that is what they are - not ultimatums - Then when you decide to do Plan B - you outline your love for her, your desire to be married to her and the requirements - for that happening, then the boundaries you set until that happens. IE - no contact with him or no contact with you. But that is still a way down the road unless you change your mind.

I agree on the "no help to move out" too. I think any assistance is foolish in her eyes and also is helping her to leave your marriage. She must assume ALL responsibilities for moving out. Financial, physical (carry her own bags) emotional ( let her worry about making ends meet) - let her do it alone, OM will not want that part of her - he thinks that is your job.

If she does n ot see sense while in Plan A - expose to anyone you have missed or been frightened to inform and then do plan B.

Sorry it is always late when I post - lots going on here - maybe make or break time again - duh!!

Keep your chin up - you are in the right group to get the help you need.
SP

First off...Shortly after the 'fight' as it were, I left home to go the library to check my mail and write my last post, got some groceries, and came home. By when I got home she wasn't as angry and was acting more like she was just the other day...she also asked how to hook up the modem and gave it back to me after I explained it cannot be connected to her computer. She said she asked for it because she didn't know if I would give it to her later on...which is ludicrous, and I calmly and respectfully told her that. I take that excuse as her not being able to admit the foolishness of the real reason for asking for it in the first place.

Anyhow, Longhorn:

I completely agree about what you said about her anger...just my thoughts as I saw her go through it.

She took the modem back to try and get at me since she knows I use the Internet quite a bit. I know it was nothing than a petty attempt at 'getting back' at me since I am not letting her have her cake and eat it to; I know she still needs and relies on me, and has planned to have me around if/when she needs me after she moves out. I have done things for her that few, if anyone else, would have...she knows and loves this. So the fact that I am not going to do anything and everything at her command is very upsetting--although I would love to, so long as it isn't hurtful to our marriage that is!

The lease is up at the end of August and we are both on it right now; she has decided to move out as soon as the lease is up: hence the manner of the question.

I am presently planning to start Plan B in mid/late October; I know it is more than six months, but I feel I have the strength to stay in Plan A a little longer than six.

I'm still not sure if I should offer to help her move out. I understand what you are saying, but by this point she has no reason to believe I am weak. Especially since I would offer in a direct manner, leave it to her to decide with no further comment, and not in a sniveling, 'I need you or I'll die!', manner. Like I said though, I'm still not sure.

Eh, on the positive side, I start my new position at work tomorrow! That is very exciting...but also very nerve-wracking; which is good too since it will help keep my mind off of this situation for at least eight hours.

Helping her move out is helping her have the A and leave your marriage.

Nuff Said

SP

Hmmm, SP, I understand that completely. Now I am more curious about the logic/thinking behind SH's suggestion in SAA that Greg offer to help his WW to move out. No big deal though, just a curiosity=)

She has been more pleasant again, which is good. She reorganized the bedroom and threw out a bunch of things that had collected over the months...being very curious I sifted through what she threw out to see if among the papers there were any letters I had given her or pictures of me/us...none=D Plus, not only was I curious, I wanted to keep such things even if she didn't.

It seems she may not go to the retreat after all (she is struggling financially to do so after all...apartments here aren't cheap, and we all know about deposits, start-up fees, etc. etc. etc.), plus one of the things she threw away was the flyer/admission form for the retreat; that isn't definitive since it could easily be handled over the phone though. So, I was wondering...if she is not going to attend, but OM is, should I go? Or should I also be avoiding OM completely? It would be an interesting situation to say the least, but I've survived much more stressful ones! Besides, it builds character. It would also be an easier way to expose to the others at the retreat since there is a lot of time for one-on-one conversation, and it wouldn't be as 'bizarre' to talk about your problems as it is to send an unexpected e-mail.

For the first time in my life, two days ago feels like a year ago. It is very weird.

On a different note, and just to share, today was the first day of my new position. Its crazy to think that the last time I had a full, permanent, 40 hour/week job was just about two years ago. Finally, a normal schedule! No more going to bed and sleeping while the sun is up. Downside? I'm outside all day, and we live in a desert with very hot dry heat...today was 105, and the average for July and August is expected to be around 118 (and yes, we can cook eggs on the street or even the sidewalk..I've tried it). Luckily, I'm used to it after 22 years.

SAW, SH didn't write SAA. His father, Dr. Willard Harley did that. Just, FYI.

I re-read the section in SAA that you refer to where Jon rented a truck and helped his wife move. You're absolutely correct, and Dr. Harley wrote that Jon did it to show regard for his wife. Dr. Harley is the expert in these matters. That's all I'll say. Use your own best judgment. Please note, however, Dr. Harley’s example did not include any assistance in meeting Sue’s rent, “startup costs,” or other furniture purchases to make Sue’s love nest more comfortable.

I wouldn’t mess with that retreat. It’s doubtful you’re going to be able to concentrate on the substance of the retreat and you’re always going to be looking for the OM out of the corner of your eye. Your frustration is going to push you to confront him eventually, and confrontations with the OP seldom work out the way we want them to. I think the time you would have spent there could be better utilized working on Plan A with your WW.

Good luck with the new job. Here in South Texas, we have some familiarity with hot weather too. Try to stay indoors where the air conditioning is working. It works every time. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

The book is by Dr. Harley - and I have not talked with Steve his son, as everyone else seems to have, but I have talked with Dr. Harley or Dr. Bill as he is called.

He didn't say that the H. HAD to help her move out - merely that he chose to, in order to be kind.

I would not be kind in that way - let her suffer for her A. I would email the retreat organisers in case she goes at the last minute, the OM could pay for her to get her in his bed. I would also tell her just before she leaves if she does go, so she can know that they know. make the email simple, sincere and honest. No name calling or requests to do anything other than be aware that she is my wife and he is planning to share a room with her.

There are sometimes what appear to be contradictions in the books adn between the stories within them, but I think if you relate each thing to the couple it is talking about and their situation, then you will see that what works for one is not advised or carried out by another. Dr. Harley knows we are all different and so our actions have some leeway in some areas.

I heard about this movie and then rented it. It is based on two short stories which are either semi or full out autobiographical. The movie deals with two married couples who are close friends, plus an affair that has been going on between one of the husbands and one of the wives. Within the first few minutes the film jumps right into the drama of the affair...it is a very good movie, and I would say very accurate; at least as accurate as two hours can be! =)

Anyhow, I rented this both to see it and hoping my WW would watch it and MAYBE get a clue about what is going on (I doubt it, but can't hurt). She is watching it as I type...I don't expect much or anything, but whatever. Have you seen it?

I'll reply to the two responses either tonight or tomorrow, just wanted to share this bit.

LH and SP

First of all I find it amusing that my acronym is SAW; no real relevance, it just sounds so tough! haha

Thanks for the correction; I knew it was BH, but I guess I had seen SH too many times.

I think I may just still offer to help her move out; it won't really make it easier or harder since her brother, cousin, etc. could help just as easily as I. I would just like to do it as part of my Plan A.

I am also thinking that as long as I am still in Plan A after she has moved out, I will happily help her with just about anything, meet with her when she wants, etc. EXCEPT help her financially, and I will make that clear. Not even a cup of coffee since anything makes it easier to stay out of our home.

Come on...just tell me to confront the OM, please? I would love to emotionally, verbally, intellectually crush him...okay okay, I already know what everyone will say to this=)

She came home from work today and told my roommate and I--for this reason my response was limited--that she was going to move out July 1st...if she can get the money together, that is her goal...nice pause...then she decided on 'early' August. Her grandmother stopped by a little later and I heard them talking (in Spanish which I am slowly learning), and it seems that her grandmother was concerned about her getting her own place and even asked, "How are you going to afford it?"

I am planning on talking to my wife, not today but sometime soon when she has opened up a bit more or a week before she moves out--whichever comes first. I want to tell her, and not write her, basically:

"You know you don't have to move out; we can still save this marriage. I'm not telling you what to do, and what you decide is what you decide, I'm just letting you know this. Just think about it: you love this house, and soon we may easily be able to make all the bills with no roommates, and even buy it; as long as you aren't planning on moving out or moved out I would love to share a single account again and thus help pay for your schooling, clothes, going out, everything; this will be especially helpful since I'm making a lot more now, and my job will pay for my tuition when I start school again next year. I've never stopped believing that what is mine is yours. Again, my only condition is that I will not assist you in destroying our marriage--everything else I am more than happy to do."

It will probably be much more condensed since I seem to use less words when speaking than writing.

I'll keep you updated on the retreat developments...I am thinking of asking the main organizer to let me know if she has confirmed she is going or not so that I can be aware of what is going on.

Thanks for everything again! Oh, the heat ain't too bad, I barely notice it. =)

IMO, when she moves out and suddenly has all the bills to pay, I would present her with my plan B letter and start no contact with her. SLAM that affair into reality the sooner the better. She is still living in fantasy land and with you being nice to her while she is moved out and probably with him - she will be cake eating before you know it and you will be paying the emotional price.

You need to make that statement to her daily - we believe what we hear and she isn't heating it from you at all. Stop waiting for special day and get it into her consciousness.

The movie - what's a movie? My life is already soap opera with my lovely PA FWH, I don't need movies to see what and affair or a liar is. - lol

SP

SP,

Oh sush, its a good movie and its nice to see our troubles...well, made into a product that entertains many and pays the bills for others and cost me whatever the rental fee was.

I completely see where you are coming from SP, by suggesting that I initiate Plan B right after she moves out; both options have their merit in my mind though, so I can't say for certain just what I will do.

One thing though, he still hasn't moved to our city nor have I heard any more of it...of course it may still happen, but it seems unlikely--either way I'm fine...if he doesn't move here, the A will suffer from distance; if he does move here she will have to deal with him as he really is (as I've mentioned, she has already complained about him...overly jealous and possesive for one), and not as he is over the phone where she can choose when and how long to speak with him.

If I do continue Plan A after she has moved out, I have already run through the scenario of her and I spending time together, him calling, and her answering... I don't care what she says, I'll ask who it was that called, and if she says OM or 'doesn't matter' then I will tell her, basically, "it is very disrespectful, hurtful, and downright rude to answer a call from OM when you have asked to spend time with me; I'm going to leave now, I look forward to spending time again some time soon."

I will make it a point to say what I wrote about in my last post more often. When it comes to telling her it is disrespectful to talk to him in our home, I pace myself though. For one, I know that it will only have minimal impact at best, for two she barely gives me an opportunity to tell her anything, especially something like that.

I must admit...I haven't made much progress with the Plan B letter...yes, yes, yell at me! Anyhow, I'm having trouble thinking of just what to include, so what do you think of this outline?

1) My immense love and dedication to the marriage
2) Apology for problems in the marriage that were my fault and a little on how we can rectify each and everyone
3) BUT: I can no longer see, talk, etc. with her while she continues the affair.
4) End the affair, and we can save our marriage; I will do anything (but hurt our marriage) for you.
5) Recap my immense love.

I am looking at all the great plan B letters to see if I can make a template, as I cannot find one in the books - should be one but I cannot find it.

Later,

Linda

10 steps to a plan B letter

1.State love for spouse.

2.State of intention to stay married to spouse.

3. Acknowledge own shortcomings in creating the marriage rift.

4. State intention to keep children in original happy two parent marriage

5 State intention to work with spouse to rebuild marriage better than it was before, to create a situation for both of you, so happy you will be completely fulfilled in the marriage.

6 State that the WS actions with OP are beginning to erode your loving feelings for them and your number one priority is to protect the loving feelings you have for spouse. In order to do this you must separate yourself from their presence so their actions cease to diminish your love for them.

7 State - separation. no personal contact for any reason - names of intermediaries of choice - if children in family - how to hand over children for visit through intermediary - financial - separation unless it is for children's needs. (sometimes you cannot keep them with you and have to pay support).

8. State conditions for rebuilding. NC with OP and NC letter to OP. Include job change, moving away, limiting (moderating) FOO contact and changing social circles if one or all of these is the only way to NC. Acknowledge that this will be hard for them and state your willingness to do anything to make this possible and to support them through the changes necessary.

9. No other way to see or talk to you. Do not make exceptions to the boundaries - (common sense - in life or death situations, they, intermediary or doctor would automatically contact you and separation would be put on hold)

10. Reiterate love for spouse and intention to be married to them for the rest of your lives.

SP


I expect I have missed things out or got something wrong, but it is my first attempt at a template for this. Comments welcome

SP,

I was just about to change the topic name since this should be helpful to many, but you are always one step ahead=)

Something that might be good to add, say right after 3, or 3B as it were: acknowledging and explaining how you have changed, and why (not completely FOR WS, but for self).

Another thing my wife, before being wayward, taught me as well...use your own voice, don't fall back on quoting, paraphrasing, etc. We learn most things from others, so pointing to a source for everything simply detracts from YOU and what YOU have done and learned.

One thing that I have felt conflicted about, number 3...I fear that if I were to list all the things I did to cause the rift, it would clearly mark the rift and remind her of it...on the other hand I want to do so since by saying them and then apologizing and explaining how to improve it should be a big positive. So...should I simply keep away from massive detail? Such as one of my problems was that I wasn't affectionate enough or often enough...so should I keep it just to that, the generalities, especially since she will know what I am talking about anyhow?

The plan B letter is not to remind you of anything, it is to state your love - reasons for separating - acknowledge you had a part in causing the rift - I would be general i.e. I realise my lack of affection caused you to feel lost and sad - or whatever will be honest but not drag up every detail.

It is necessary for her to see you being honest, this does not drag it up, but allows her to see your progress. if she wants a voice to discuss it and get it out of her system she will have to agree to your boundaries. I.E. NC with OM.

If you need a letter to remind you of your own progress read your journal - if you don't have one get a diary or calendar and write your changes and realisations on it.

SP

I know all of my improvements, and what further improvements I can make in myself; specifically I need to become more assertive or agressive, although this doesn't have too much to do with saving my marriage and more with work and general life, regardless, it would have an impact.

Anyhow, I've not yet begun my Plan B letter...still...too much going on. Work was stressful today...they send me with a slow supervisor who ends up slowing me down and then get upset that I'm not 'fast' enough, argh! Anyhow, enough of that.

One thing I am really having to fight off right now and really just need to vent about:

My mind keeps going to thoughts of other women, of "just give up on this marriage, move on." But when I think of it rationally I KNOW that is a bad idea, especially since most of the women my mind turns to are NOT women I could ever end up marrying, and the few who MIGHT be are just that, a mere possibility...and if they were really a good choice of wife, they wouldn't get involved with me knowing that I am still married and trying to save my marriage.

Thankfully, the upside is that I have been able to keep myself away from even the starting stages of an EA. There was one woman, for example, who I have been friends with for a while and hung out with a few weekends ago just because I had nothing to do... I noticed that she was flirting with me and that I was minimally reciprocating--I haven't called, talked to, or seen her since, just in case.

The downside is that my new position at work means I have just about daily interaction with a number of women. Small talk--for about a minute or two--is just part of the job and part of being nice, so I excuse that. But I know that if I ever visit any of them on my break, invite them to lunch, ask for a number, or anything that is not a part of my job, a part of good service, that I need to really step back and smack myself. Luckily, my area will change in about a month so I will see completely new faces.

I know the basics of how to avoid an(other) EA, don't EVER reveal any feelings, avoid them once feelings come about, etc. But any other advice for BS's in such a position? I imagine that I am not the only BS who is tempted by the (temporary and ultimately regretted) opiate of an EA/PA!

-SAW

So, she is going to the retreat, and she asked that she be excluded from utilities for the time that she is gone.

I told her that there is no need for her to scrimp and save since she doesn't have to move out and that as for the retreat, people will know about the A. Of course, I had to repeat myself a number of times because she kept interupting me.

Then by way of the brief conversation she accused me of the threat that she had lied to others about. I told her that I had and never would threaten her in that way and please not to lie about me threatening her. At this point she was VERY upset and wouldn't let me get a word out, so I calmly repeated that sentence who knows how many times and asked her to please let me finish a single sentence. This was in the kitchen, and she then fled to her (our) bedroom. I calmly followed her to finish what I had to say; she insisted I leave her alone, tried to slam the door on me (I held it open...again, calmly and patiently, never yelling or insulting). Her trying to close the door (and ALMOST getting violent) and me trying to repeat to her not to lie about me threatening her went on for at least a minute or two.

I just hope I made all the right decisions, or at least no horribly wrong ones in how I acted....

I love the woman I married, but have no clue who this person is that I am living with. I have already been over this, I know how WS's act, etc. etc. etc. but it is still so horribly painful to think that a woman I would even date for more than a month, let alone MARRY, would ever act like this.

Plan B does need to come soon or I will hate her, that is for certain. I know who she really is, even if that person doesn't really exist--or at least is in deep deep hiding--at the moment.

We never fought before her A...she never yelled at me like this...she never insulted me like this...Werewolves have silver bullets, why can't an Affair have as simple of a remedy? I can't believe I ever got myself into this mess.

I must really love this woman to keep holding on.

A short afterthought:

Why can't WS's be like normal human beings who you can sit down and talk out a problem with? Even if no solution is reached...you can talk to the majority of humans about any problem, especially when you are respectful (even though she claim's I'm not), non-judgemental, non-threatening, and patient....