Wow, Nagrom...interesting laws you have there across the pond. I wish we had those here! You've got some backing to your decisions...some overdue rightness...reality and clarity in those laws. Way to go on finding out about them!!!

I hear you're still pondering the future, about SF...that's it's a real concern to you...would you reconsider IC? Would ya? And for DD12, as well? Something you could choose to do together (separate appointments) as an act of self love, health, and a way to bond...to teach your DD she can reach for resources...people help...there's no shame, she's not to blame, nor are you, for what others' choose? And when we want to figure stuff out...guides are what counselors are...they don't cause, control or cure, either...they guide us from their knowledge...and like everything else in life, we take what we want and leave the rest.

Sure would be a blessing to her to have the stigma you have for it removed for her...so she doesn't have to take it on the chin, chin up through everything...nor do you.

She's about to enter her teenaged years full blown...and that's really rough dealing with blatant abandonment and rejection. Heck, isn't that what we learn in our teenage years, slowly? She's got it head on...and you, you've got it, as well. Why not lead her by leading yourself and sharing?

Great ownership on the SF issue, as well...you owned your part, which is only half...not the whole thing. You didn't drive her away nor make her choose to go wayward...this was something I said to my BH, too...and totally stepped over my half of sharing, being honest...steeped in my resentment and entitlement...no ownership, either. Wasn't true...was my perception...which I purposefully distorted to make it all BH's fault...hurt me to read her words to you, Nagrom. I remember. I did that.

It's standard wayward operating procedure. SWOP. Feels like being side-swiped. It's not the truth...wayward truth.

Did the age difference bother YOU, Nagrom? Or was your being okay with totally dependent on if she stayed okay with it?

"..The sad thing is that I am sure that deep down she still has love for me and ALL she has left behind.....and that SF could be enjoyable for both of us again."

This is a great belief to choose and hold, Nagrom. Why sad? Absolutely choose to believe this...it's true...you and your family ARE HER REALITY...not fantasy...she has great loss right now...and you both could get to thriving, better than ever, if she would choose to end her A's...especially the one she has had all her life with resentment. Be strong and know this..she loves you. Her loss is greater than your own...because she lost herself, her marriage, her children...everything. Doesn't make her a victim or more hurt...just good to know.

And you know the way back to yourself...how to live from truth and in it...that reality is GREAT compared to fantasy. And you don't know what the future holds...at all. Is your sadness coming from grieving what hasn't come yet...or what has?

Grief is only for the incurable past, Nagrom. Get your lines straight...as an act of self-love.

Your Plan B isn't complete yet...when you get to where you do not fund her monthly, it will be complete...well, as much as it can be...that $30k will continue to buffer it a bit (I can't find the "pounds" symbol, btw)...however, to the extent you can control your Plan B and darkness, you'll be there...and predetermine your boundaries in regard to future support...without a legal separation, she cannot demand, sue or enjoin you...only you choose. And to save your marriage, I would advise to stay dark and not meet her FS (financial security, which is interestingly linked to SF sometimes) EN, which has been huge. Know this. This isn't retaliation or hoarding...not selfish. FS is a real Emotional Need...and has to be cut off...like your presence, voice, attention, focus, appreciation, admiration, etc.

Changing the locks would be a great idea, too. She IS locked out of the marriage as long as she chooses to be unfaithful...symbols matter. You've cut off access...did you include this one?

How are you feeling about yourself?

Did you ask your hairdresser to NOT speak of your WW...that you feel pain when you hear opinions or updates about her? And you're protecting your love from further withdrawals?

Learning boundary enforcements is essential, Nagrom. It's what was critically missing before...and you can practice with everyone (that's the good news!).

And you're judging WW a lot in your posts...restating, recapping...recalling? Choose not to focus on her and her stuff...where you have no control. That's a key choice in your downs...and ups. Being dark and focusing on yourself is Plan B...learn to choose your thoughts...and when updating, share more of YOUR stuff with us...for practice...'k?

Human stuff: thoughts, feelings, perceptions, beliefs, expectations, choices, intent and perspectives.

Inquiring minds want to know....'cuz you're worth knowing, Nagrom.

Thank you for being here.

LA

LA,
Iam very pleased you replied to my various posts. I know I must avoid assumptions/..recapping..etc..but with these recent posts I am trying to sort myself out so I can move forward more positively.
I do feel I am gradually achieving this and I think your response has helped.
I think the legal aspect has been adequately clarified by the lawyer I have consulted. I must say I am also surprised at the fairly acceptable position the law puts me in...so much so that I need to double check with the lawyer.
The important aspect for me appears to be that WW cannot do much...divorce, legal separation, without my agreement...until 5 years have elapsed.
Within this timescale..."Your wife would not be able to instigate and complete a legal financial agreement without you co-operating".

I am concerned about DD12 and am trying to encourage her to open up her feelings to me as much as possible. I did suggest to the last doctor (of 3) who saw her and who diagnosed her stomach pains as caused by stress that psychological counselling might be worthwhile. But he did say this is not readily available on the NHS and suggested I should get together with WW to try and help DD1.
I said I was not prepared to do it this way but may need to consider private IC for if necessary in due course....
..................

...............
....................The age difference between WW and I has never worried me. Except that in recent years, on the basis that we might might both live to the same sort of age, I have assured myself that there is adequate financial provision for her.
But I have always felt and acted much younger than my actual age !.

I used the word "sad" because what I wrote in that paragraph was what I consider to be the truth and I had failed to take note of any warning signs of discontent which, if acted upon then MIGHT have prevented the Affair. And therefore "sad" that it is probably now too late.

"FS"..have noted this abbreviation before and now know what it stands for.

I understand your point regarding the "symbolic" changing of the locks.

I did not question my hairdresser about WW but admit I did not ask her to avoid mentioning WW.

During the last few days I feel I am better getting to terms with the situation and your last post to me has helped further.
I am also focussing less on WW and "her stuff".

DD12 is happy living here with me and DS18. There difficult days and occasional missing school days due to stomach pains (now diagnosed as stress..have seen 3 doctors for opinions). But she is generally good..helps in the house...often moves furniture around to create (usually) better layouts. Generally good fun to be with. She divides her out of school time between her many friends and her pony.
For the last few weeks she has been contacting WW more often and is allowed fairly frequent but short visits. She is obviously missing her mum.
I have agreed with DD12 that she contact her mum and visit whenever she wants to ...but must let me know first. This generally works...but, several times she has ignored this "agreement" and has got WW running around with the car collecting her and taking her places which I would have done. Almost as if DD12 is making "some sort of point" or trying to make me look incapable of looking after her properly!!.
Things I, and others, say to her do often seem to go in one ear and out the other!! But this situation will I am sure right itself.

WW posted a letter to me with enclosed cash towards the rent payments. She has had an advance from the District Council before they agree (possibly) to pay the full amount. She does seem intent on relieving me of this financial help asap!.

However, I am about to cease ALL financial (and any other help)to her.

In the next day or so, I will write to DD22 asking to tell WW the following:-

1). I am ceasing all financial ,and any other, help. As fair notice I will have the £350 rent cash passed to you for April 10th. This will be the last payment.

2). I will cancel the monthly direct debit payment for WW's cellphone.

3). WW does not call in to see me nor telephones me as agreed....but....
I also request she no longer writes to me but conveys any messages via you...DD22.


I spoke to DD22 today and she is perfectly "happy" to do this.
DD22 also told me she spoke to her mum today and told her that one day she she would wake up from this fantasy and find she has no friends etc....
WW apparently did not reply.

I do feel that each day now I am getting more and "positive" and having more "ups" than "downs".
For some time I have not risen too early...unless necessary...and meditated for a while to prepare myself for each day. I do find this has helped me.

DS18 told me last night that WW has invited him to her flat for a visit one evening next week. He is not exited about it but told me he would probably go.

I am taking DD12 and DS18 to WW's parents for Sunday lunch.
All are looking forward to the visit.

DD22 keeps in regular contact with WW's parents and visits sometimes.
WW's parents live 25 miles away.

DD22 has passed on the following message to WW :-

1).BS is ceasing all financial, and any other, help. To give fair notice BS will pay the April rent for the flat but this will be the last.

2). The car insurance direct debit payment will cease at renewal time.

3). BS is pleased WW abides by the request not to call at the house, nor contact by telephone....but...he also requests she no longer writes to him but passes any messages via DD22.

WW panicked and went to see DD22. DD22 telephoned me to say WW was with her and did not know what to do!. She would not be able to survive and our house would thus have to be sold. (I do not think she could force this yet, but I did not argue).
WW wanted to speak to me. I said NO, I did not want to,and there was no need.
I told DD22 that I was not advising or telling WW to draw on the £30,000 savings in WW's name...but they were in effect hers and I could not touch them. And the bank were in the process of contacting her about them anyway.

I refused several times to speak to WW but at last relented. WW could not understand why I do not want to contact or speak to her.
But she said she did not want to see the house sold yet for the sake of the children.
cont/d...........

So, it seems WW will need, for "survival" on her own, to draw on the investments. This should mean that she should have no need for a long time to approach me for any financial assistance.
If any problems with acessing the money WW said she would tel. me...but I made it clear she must contact me via DD22.

WW's manner and tone of voice was not unpleasant but obviously stressed and panicky. Said there was no-one else to advise her.
I am still avoiding any assumptions and taking it day by day.
I will probably contact my legal adviser as to the current situation as I plan to live like this, with the children, in our house for at least 4 and 1/2 years.

I saw DD22 later yesterday evening. She apologised for letting her mum, WW, speak on the phone to me but that WW was stressed, panicky and crying.
I said sorry to have put DD22 in this awkward situation, but she said fine, not to worry..no doubt DD is coping with it ok,.
She has already told her mum how selfish she is in not helping much with her grandchildren..and that one day she would wake up from her fantasy world.
She added that WW is contacting the bank re the investment money later this week.

Nagrom,

You relented and broke the darkness. Hanging up would have been an act of love for yourself and your marriage. Soothing is expensive...costs self-respect, others' respect and breaks connections.

I'm sorry, but getting in the way of your WW's consequences (telling her what the bank would..LET THE BANK), breaking Plan B to bits...right when she was actually feeling the impact of HER choices...not yours.

Oh, Nagrom. You did your pattern. Were you trying to soothe DD22 moreso than WW that you chose to do this?

Your DD22 is strong and capable...and this was her part, too. Hanging up isn't rude or disrespectful...it's a boundary enforcement. It says you know she is capable, honors her choices and gets out of the way of her own consequences.

She's not a child. WW is CHOOSING. You know this. You don't honor yourself, your marriage or WW when you do this.

I'm so sorry. No one else to advise her...that's an essential EN...and you met it.

Let her find her way, Nagrom...she can. She's capable. Get out of the way of reality...when you block her consequences, meet any EN, you're supporting her A...which damages everyone, including her.

And for your DD12's stomach pain...I have no medical background. I will share with you that a doctor told me my middle son suffered from this stomach pain from 8 years old to 12...saying it was stress-related. It wasn't. It was an allergy to our clothes detergent...from the fragrance. Might have been exacerbated by stress...nonetheless, we went to All Free & Clear and they stopped. Same for migraines (which began shortly after the stomach aches). However, at 21 now, he still gets migraines and hasn't discovered causation.

80% of humans are allergic to laundry detergent (mild to extreme reactions). How 'bout that?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

And your DD12 is not trying to show WW you're not doing your job...she's trying to MAKE her mother be a mother...which is turmoil and heartache. Get a regular family counselor for the three of you...including DS18. And when you want to break Plan B again, think of them...how much they are hurting, angry and what betrayal it is that they have to deal with the consequences of her choices...and you get in the way of hers.

LA

Looks like you've just applied one big needle to her fantasy bubble. Thing is, this needle should have been applied as soon as she moved out...



A pity. This would have been an excellent opportunity to continue deflating her fantasy bubble....



Interesting - this wasn't spelled out on the Plan B letter that you sent to her?

LA and MIM. Thanks for comments.
I will first reply to LA....

You have woken me up as usual. I know I was weak yet again!.
However the bank is in process of contacting her to discuss "her" investments and I MUST pass on confidential letters addressed to her. She would soon have been made aware she had £££..to use from investments anyway.
Right!..I should have put the phone down and left her to find out for herself.
Re "soothing" DD22...I did think afterwards about this myself. But DD would not have put WW on the phone if I had not relented...my fault...and DD22 is a very tough character!.
I think I may have felt at the time that I was being very heartless and unreasonable by WW if I had not relented while she was in that very agitated state...in hindsight a mistake I know.

Maybe I have spoilt Plan B and too late....but its now up to WW to sort things out on her own...though she may still want advice from me. There WILL be no more direct contact from/to/ me. And not even advice through DD22.

LA..I note your suggestion of a possible exacerbated allergy...will bear in mind.

LA...I was depressed on reading your post first time. I realised yet more mistakes. But you are so right and I hope to remain "dark" from now on.

MIM...your comments appreciated.
No..I did not give any explanation for the "no direct contact".
At the time I recall WW indicated she understood my wanting this to help me through...and it was left at that.
As far as I was concerned Plan B with its no direct contact was the only way forward for a possible reconciliation ...one day!. So any further explanation to WW was inappropriate.

Nagrom,

You shared!!!! I'm so delighted...you said "I was depressed on reading your post first time." I'm hearing you really do hear blame and shame, don't you?

Wanna talk about that? You fear greatly "doing wrong"...whatever it is, as if you can control outcome if you choose wisely, carefully, lovingly enough...would that be at the core of your choices?

I'm showing you patterns of behavior for you to find out what feelings you react to from, or beliefs...and you NAILED this one...

Outta da park! (Yankee-accented baseball term)...

"I think I may have felt at the time that I was being very heartless and unreasonable by WW if I had not relented while she was in that very agitated state...in hindsight a mistake I know."

This is the Enabling Behavior Anthem, Nagrom. I sung it all my life...until I stopped. When I got that this was coming from intense disrespect and self-deception...it was fairly easy to not do, anymore.

Her agitated state was hers...intense signals (feelings) which were signalling her...because A's are distraction...give false feelings (signals) and there are real ones, overridden. When you get in the way of her stuff, you help override the very feelings coming at her to bring her out of her fog. Her self signalling her.

Not about you.

Not you doing.

See, I suspect you had this level, when, if reached, you'd let light out...and if you caused her too much discomfort or pain (which feels like love to you and is really important to how you view your own self-image)...then you'd relent.

And you did. Know your levels...they are self-sabotage and betray you more and your marriage.

I know that's not what you want. Which is why I believe you will now stay very dark...and you'll aid yourself by revoking permission for YOU to believe you are the cause, control or CURE for her emotions, agitation, discomfort (all her signals, to her, from her beliefs and choices)...because you do NOT want to continue to disrespect others...which may feel heartless because you have deep, old beliefs that loving is curing (which means you have to cause and control)...and it isn't.

Loving is being dark, focusing on you...learning boundary enforcements (like telling hairdresser to be aware and not share anything about WW). Which is from respect of self and hairdresser.

And your DD22 is a tough cookie...I believe you. I also know it was her choice to cave and call. Limit the darkness to her composing simple emails only when she has questions or requests from WW. No calls, no stop overs, no relenting. I'm not blaming her, either...awareness has no blame. And she owned her stuff...thank her for her ownership and apology...value her through respect...do not mitigate or deny her choices, either.

Then you won't do so with your own.

Think, Nagrom...your family, all of them, can BLOOM...come together...thrive...

I know this. I really do.

Don't judge your outcome...that's fantasy...you don't know it. Don't know if Plan B is spoiled or not...can't know. YOU know what you did attacked your marriage...and you may have needed to do this to purify your intent...which may have been secretly to get WW back...and you don't want WW back. You want DW back. When you feel tempted to console, cure, control...remember DW? Hold her in your mind with her kindest, most connecting, appreciative smile. She's worth fighting for.

Not WW.

That's who you mixed up...you didn't want DW to see you as heartless or unreasonable...she didn't see you that way. She's not there right now. Only WW is...so stay dark and wait on DW, not WW, 'k? Respect others...they are capable of their own stuff...don't take it from them. Any time you attempt to change another's thoughts, feelings, beliefs, perceptions...you are being disrespectful which is unloving. It truly is selfish...about your false power, not your real power, 'k?

Also...my delight in you stating what you felt in reaction to my post was you stating, not demonstrating. When you chose to speak to WW, you were reacting to your fear...rather than stating your fear to your DD22 and not acting on it. Good to know, eh?

Are you saying in your last post that WW stated she knew why you were going dark, that you needed to be dark to help you through, so you believed no further explanation was necessary?

You didn't send a Plan B letter...would you consider doing so now? Plan B has started all over again...and the PBL acts as the lighthouse while you remain in darkness. Gives W a way back...owns your choices and your intent.

WW isn't looking for the way back...W may be doing just that.

LA

LA,
You are a continuing great support to me...I am taking in all you say.
Another concern of mine WAS probably as to what WW will do if she cannot survive financially without some financial help. Her veiled (panicking) threat that the house must be sold may have been a factor in my relenting and speaking to her. But she said she did not want the house sold for the sake of the children.
I do not want her "driven" back to me for want of money...but because she wants to try and reconciliate.
I have more or less convinced myself that W will never return..not that I do not want her to.
I have to remain 100% dark and accept the consequences.
I have loved W so much for so long that I think I have a fear of losing that love for her!. Though should make my life easier?. ...just thinking aloud.

Am reading Michele Langley's follow-up to her book on Women and Infedility. If I take her research and findings seriously my marriage would appear to be virtually over anyway!!.?.

I gave WW a Plan B letter before Christmas with an "addendum" at Christmas. They were not long but to the point.I left her with no doubt I love her (W)and the way open for a return to the marriage.

I have now made it clear I want no direct contact from her...not even a letter. So I feel I should not write another Plan B letter.....unless absolutely necessary.
I consider Plan B commenced at Christmas.

Nagrom,

We haven't heard from you in quite a while.

How are you & DD's doing?

WTF,
Many thanks for remembering me!
My computer has been down for over 2 months. Have been back on line for a few days and have intended to post again shortly when I have thought what to say as the situation is basically the same....with my Plan B continuing.
All your past postings have been invaluable to me ...especially those of LA...and I often read them.

I will post again very soon,
Nagrom.

I should have added that as I ceased all direct contact and support for her...(except for the £30,000 investments in WW's name ....which I have no control over unless I divorce her now...which I think would be a wrong and premature move)....in April 2007, that my Plan B started properly from then.
I feel my Plan B letters at Christmas are still relevant in helping her if she should in time wish to try a reconciliation.

Yes...still in Plan B. As "dark" as I can be. Have only seen WW once...very briefly...due to DD13 having a minor riding accident and WW took her for a hospital checkup whle I rode her pony home.
With a little difficulty I am living my life on the basis W will never return....but I know I do still love W as she is in my thoughts so often.
I am avoiding asking about WW at alland trying to avoid any assumptions.

Some facts are:- Much evidence that WW contracted an STD early in the Affair...serious enough to warrant several hospital clinic visits....etc
OM dumped WW in late September 2006. She had been asolutely addicted to him.
In September 2006, while I was sitting with WW one evening, she received a text message. Normally she would have said nothing but, but she said.."Oh that was xxxx, just a "friend" I chat to at the inn".
WW moved out to her small appartment in the November....as she felt she was "being watched"!.
OM always has one or more women on the go but his favourite,who he dumped WW for, dumped him early in 2007 as he had been visiting WW's appartment. One of his latest acquisitions is a woman from an internet site...he has been known for a long time to make use of these sex sites.
The "friend" of WW I referred to has been seen visiting her appartment...could be quite innocent.

Anyway, I am trying to avoid assumptions or to find anything about what WW is up to...and will try and give my Plan B a good run.

A question to BryanP....Ever since you referred to my WW's possible "self destruction" several times in earlier postsI have wondered what you meant by this?.
ie:, you said.."unless she is willing to see what she has done and humbles herself then her path to self destruction will be unstoppable..."..

Are you able to explain this further?.
Hope you don't mind me questioning this remark.

Hey, Nagrom...hi there!

How are your children doing? Have you noticed any changes in your experience by not assuming about WW, and not assuming about others?

I would love to know what is different with what you know now...what you've changed, and if it's benefited you...even in your relationship with your children.

I appreciate your update...very sorry you went without internet connection for so long...am wondering about you cutting off info about OM as well as WW? Darker dark.

LA