piojitos: I don't think what Dr. Harley is saying is hogwash. I think that it is very educational and informative. People being sold implies that people are being mislead. I don't believe that at all. Gitomer says, "People love to buy; people hate to be sold." I think that people who subscribe to Dr. Harley's way of thinking truly believe it is gospel.

I will state it again. Someone pointed me in this direction as an example of groupthink. I could use it, I guess, because some of the posts/traits exist. I decided not to a long time ago. Get that out of your head. I am here for personal gain...not for some course, etc. You are correct on observation as well. I am not observing anything. I couldn't and wouldn't publish anything from here anyway. I am not in a position to do so even if I wanted to.

Honestly, I bet that you and I are more on the same page than either one of us probably know. Sure, I find some of the kool-aid here distasteful, but that doesn't make it wrong. There are no real right or wrong answers here.

I seek to understand.

I guess I am biassed, but I am not an observer. I am a participant. I am no different than anyone else. Everyone who is here, comes in with his or her own thoughts and biasis. Do you agree?

...and, since you do not drink the kool-aid, what do you believe?

piojitos: In my religion related post, you followed up by pointing out that I am angry. I have to admit, I have strong feelings about people that claim to be Christians and then judge and hate people. Also, I have no tolerance for cheaters.

If this is what you are referring to, you are correct. I am not going to empathize with a cheater or a hypocritical religious person ever. I am just not the enabling type.

I do believe almost any action is forgivable, even the 2 above. Everyone does things that he or she shouldn't. Unfortunately, there are consequences for negative actions. Also, no one learns from his or her negative actions unless people hold him or her accountable.

kinger - you are different than everyone else in the infidelity forum. In that all members here are actively recovering from an affair in one way or another. They participate by sharing themselves to get help and help others.

This difference is what is drawing so much attention to you. All new posts start out with cries for help. Yours started out with "What is wrong with you people." Understand the hostility?

Still unclear on why you are here. I know why I'm here. To heal myself and rebuild my marriage. Are you able to articulate your reason?

kinger,

Don't get defensive. People here just are fed up with being lied to and they get defensive when people come on and don't seem to be telling the truth. That is why you create such animosity - people don't trust you and many of us have freshly been betrayed by the one we trusted most. Even so, most of those still, in all that pain, try their best to help others. That is what I like about MB. Yes the forum has guidelines. I think many people don't say all that they really want to because they are, at times, constrained by those guidelines. The gospel is the kool-aid. There are some hard core diabetics here from all the kool-aid they have consumed. There are also people here who believe they can bebefit from the program, in general, even if they don't swallow it hook, line and sinker. I consider myself one of those. I started out this mess on an entirely different web site. I got no consistency of advice there. For every post telling me to try to save the M, I would get two PM's telling me to dump the adulterous b*** (their words - not mine).

Anyway, all I wanted to say was don't get so defensive. I think it is great that you can find benefit from being here. I used to live in the buckle of the Bible belt. For the last 15 years, I have lived all over the world. My views of Christianity have not changed that much but my views of religion have.

One statistic I think it is always important to point out is that Americans represent only about 5% of the population of the planet. For that 5%, I don't know the break down by religious preference. Even so, it always amazes me that such a small percentage of the planet gets outraged when the rest of the planet does not fall in line with their way of thinking. Now I live in the heart of Islam. The people still think pretty much the same way. A small percentage want to get the rest of the world to think like they do. The weapons are just different.

So stick around. I have no problem with you. Actually people here probably hate me more than they do you. So if you want competition, I can give you a run for your money.

MDC: I really didn't mean, "what is wrong with you people." I understand and I apologize.

If I remember correctly, that post was in response to a dude that was so down, depressed, life was destroyed, etc. because, not only did he believe it was his fault that he was being cheated on, but his self-confidence and guilt was so strong that he didn't even feel comfortable talking to his wife, that lives with him, about dating another man.

Unfortunately, I was to ignorant and uninformed to keep my "keyboard" shut. I let my heart get the best of me. I felt so bad for this dude. I felt like the posts in his forum led to him being so down and accepting this kind of behavior.

I felt like the cut man in the corner of a championship fighter. The crowd was cheering for him to fight back. They had seen many men do it before, but he just couldn't. He was a tough champion with the heart of a champion so he wouldn't go down in defeat. Rather, he used every bit of his will to stay on his feet while his head was being caved in. Unfortunately, as his cut man, dr., someone who wanted him to have a life after the game was over, I was obligated to throw in the towel...even though my fighter, the crowd, etc. would be upset with me.

I apologize for my thoughts and words coming off so wrong. I just felt for the dude. One of my best friends was exactly him a few years back. I saw how it almost killed him, and I didn't want it to happen to someone else. It was horrible. I guess I decided at that point that no one deserves the pain he went through.

piojitos: I hear what you are saying. The religious beliefs I subscribe to do not tell me to hate someone for believing in a different higher power, none at all, etc. It is more about believing in right and wrong, caring for people, not hurting others and living with positive thoughts in my heart. WOW! That is crazy, huh? I bet "Christians" will shout me down for that, huh?

Anyway, I am not here to mislead anyone. I don't think divorce is the only answer for infidelity. Matter of fact, for some reason I find it even more unhealthy and wrong for peeps to allow the cheating spouse to come back only to treat them like crap for the rest of their lives. Furthermore, I think it is even more unhealthy for peeps to "stalk" spouses and "trap" them in to coming back, like he or she has no choice. That is sick to me. I can't imagine that any of those motives can be healthy.

Am I wrong?

I don't know. Are you? Do you have to be right or wrong?

Anyway, please feel free to visit all my threads any time you wish and criticize all you want. I am always glad to get a fresh perspective.

Warning though - don't project. It hurts everyone involved. Try to stay a little objective. The person you posted in the reference to MDC was not your friend. Maybe there are some similar traits but there are probably differences too. You have no idea where that person will get to emotionally or how they will eventually cope with their grief. Rocky was pretty cut up and beaten senseless. He still had some fight left. You never know how strong somebody can be when everything they have is taken from them. Some might just have what it takes to fight back. That, IMO, is why this site is so supportive.

No, I have no need to be right, because I don't really think there is truly a "right" answer. I just asked if I was "wrong" because I wondered if you totally disagreed with me.

Good advice on not "projecting." I think you are right on.

I also think you are right on by saying no one knows how much fight is left in someone. People always seem to respond the strongest in negative situations.

There is nothing more miserable than the break up of a marriage. People need all the support they can get whenever they are going through that miserable event. I know one of the things that struck me during the event is how little friends and family understood the pain, since they had never been through it.

I just feel for people that continue to get hurt over and over by trying to do what they think is right.

Well as Christians, we were given a pretty good example to follow weren't we?

Kinger, I see you have not responded on my post so I will send it again:

Come on, Kinger. What sort of "research" question is that? A 2 year old could answer that and you should already KNOW the answer to that question.

ALL Adulterers, while they are engaged in adultery, or wife swapping, or swinging, or Polyamory, or anything other than fidelity in a monogamous marriage believes their unfaithfulness is "justified" by whatever rationalizations or "conditions" give them the "entitlement" to break their covenantal vows. Or did you really think people were "dragged" into an affair?

From a religious perspective, the operative phrase is, "sin blinds the sinner to the sin." It presents itself as enticing, fun, deserved, easier that the alternative, no work, etc. It comes cloaked and looking "innocent and pain free," but underneath the nice looking linen is a rotting corpse. There is an element in our society that likes to tell everyone that "everyone's doing it" and "it's no big deal to cheat," because then they get to have whatever they want. It's called "moral relativism."

But many who have managed to free themselves, alone or with help, from adultery can look back with "20-20 hindsight" and see the lies for what they were....and the path of destruction that infidelity leaves in it's wake....sort of like a hurricane that takes little time to pass into someone's life, but can take years to recover from the effects it leaves behind in it's passing.

piojitos - yep, you are right of course. Just like Thomas, you won't believe unless you, personally, can see it and touch it for yourself. Sounds to me like your "trust" has been shattered pretty well and your "self-preservation" walls are up and reinforced.

In case you happen to peak over the wall and might trust someone else to be truthful with you....my marriage is recovered. It took 4 years to get through recovery to recovered. Today marks 31 years married, 10 years since the affair began, 4 years from when we took the first steps into recovery, and the 1st day of the rest of our lives together.

Not convinced? Then here's the last line from an anniversary card my wife got for me today.... "And I know in my heart, for the rest of my days, I'll be sharing my love, still, with you."

"These three (truths) remain, faith, hope and love. And the greatest of these is love."

With all sincerity, I hope you can find it in your marriage Piojitos. If others have, you can too.

Kinger – how utterly magnanimous of you. From where I sit, it would be my humble opinion that you might want to think some more about your own Standards and Boundaries.

“I have no tolerance for cheaters.” Yep, you must be the sinless one who won’t forgive anyone. None of us on MB "tolerates" cheaters, that would be enabling and conflict avoidance and your accusation implies that posters on MB DO "tolerate cheaters." Patience in working through recovery is NOT "tolerance," it is "endurance" and loving the "sinner" despite the reality of the "sin."

“I am not going to empathize with a cheater or a hypocritical religious person ever.” What is a “cheater” to you? What is a “hypocritical religious person” to you? I’ll bet it’s someone who isn't PERFECT and never makes a mistake or let’s their emotions or their “Taker” control their reactions, speech, or actions at any time.

“The religious beliefs I subscribe to do not tell me to hate someone for believing in a different higher power, none at all, etc.” Neither does mine. Religious or not, we all tend to “hate the sin.” In the Christian religion, we are taught not only to “hate the sin,” but to love the “sinner” because we have ALL sinned and fallen short of the glory of God and are ALL in need of God’s forgiveness in Christ Jesus.

“It is more about believing in right and wrong, caring for people, not hurting others and living with positive thoughts in my heart.” From your foregoing statements, it would seem you “want” to believe this is what you believe and how you live your life, but the reality is you DON’T. You are “intolerant,” and most likely “unforgiving” also, since it tends to go hand-in-hand with intolerance. So WHOSE set of Standards DO you embrace and WHO determines what “right and wrong” are, in your opinion, for anyone other than yourself?

“WOW! That is crazy, huh? I bet "Christians" will shout me down for that, huh?” Kind of “proves my point” as stated in the preceding paragraph. You have a “special animosity” for Christians. Or are there, perhaps, other religions that you might toss into your “intolerance mix?” Jewish? Islam? Hindu? Or is it JUST Christians that you have such a “low opinion of?”


To reiterate what so many other posters have asked and you have steadfastly avoided answering; "WHAT, exactly, is your personal situation that has impacted you to seek out some help and ideas from a place like Marriage Builders?"

You said, as the only “hint” into your personal interest; “Cheating/leaving/lying spouses have touched my life at an alarming rate.”

You have not said if you are married.

You have not said if you personally have experienced infidelity from your spouse.

You said a one point a “friend” of yours did and no one “deserves” pain of adultery (to which we would all agree).

You take an attacking posture and the claim “oops, I didn’t really mean it that way.”

Isn’t that just the sort of “hypocritical mistake” that you find “wrong” and would, yourself, be so “intolerant” of in someone else? Or is forgiveness just for your “mistakes” and not for others, Christian or otherwise?

So, will the “real” Kinger please stand up and reveal himself to us?

Kinger - think about this. This is moral relativism. If there is no "right" there can be no "wrong."

kinger - you didn't answer. Why are you here?

People always seem to respond the strongest in negative situations.


well aint that the truth

depends on what our motivations are ? right?

the task always remains the same


Max

Foreverhers: I appreciate your time, thought and compassion for your stance. It is obvious that you believe what you write deep in your heart, or you are an excellent, persuasive author that has me fooled, (you are an excellent, persuasive, compassionate author either way).

I, like anyone, have committed sin. I am willing to forgive anyone for almost anything. I am not "holier than thou." Matter of fact, the “holier than thou” types is the ones that bother me. I have stated this many times now, but I will repeat it...I am not conducting research here.

Can you expand on what standards and boundaries you think I need to reevaluate?

Tolerance, for cheating, to me is allowing someone to do it until they finally come back. You call it "endurance." I guess we will agree to disagree.

A cheater to me is a married person who practices infidelity.

A hypocritical Christian, to me, is someone who proclaims to everyone that will listen that he or she is a Christian, but judges everyone else’s beliefs, behaviors, etc.while not walking the walk that he or she talks.

Right and wrong to me is, pretty much, spelled out in the 10 commandments. I think we are confusing "intolerant" with accountability. Sure, I do not think cheating is tolerable. Obviously, according to the 10 commandments, I am not the only one. However, I do believe a cheater can be forgiven.

I don't have intolerance for religion. I just have a problem with people that use it to build themselves up while putting others down.

I made a post that was taken as "attacking." I apologized. If you cannot accept that, I understand. We all make mistakes.

I was with my wife for 7 years, married for 3.

I look forward to your response.

"I was with my wife for 7 years, married for 3."

What happened?

LA

kinger - Why are you here? Not an attack. Seeking to understand.

Was there infidelity in your marriage? Are you working to forgive?

Kinger, yes I can but no I won't at this time. Until we begin having a dialog with DIRECT answers to DIRECT questions, I'm not going to play the "mindreading game" and try to "figure out" what it is you are looking for.

I spent a fair amount of time in my last post addressing several statements, to which you have responded to some and their attendant questions, but you have failed to answer directly the most important one for me to have a better understanding of just what it is you are seeking.

So let me ask it again and perhaps reword it for greater clarity:

So WHOSE set of Standards DO you embrace and WHO determines what “right and wrong” are, in your opinion, for anyone other than yourself?

What faith or belief DO you embrace for yourself? It seems apparent that it is NOT Christianity, so what is it, specifically? This will go to the heart of your interrogative about "what standards and boundaries."

Defining terms is essential to understanding. It is useless, and even dangerous sometimes, to engage in conversation when the participants may be "hearing" different meanings for the "same words."

So let's toss out the most basic of questions that only you can answer, and which answer will help me to understand you better......Who do you say that Jesus Christ is?"



Now, to address your post and to show why it's so important to define terms, let me quote your relevant answers to my previous post:


"Tolerance, for cheating, to me is allowing someone to do it until they finally come back. You call it "endurance." I guess we will agree to disagree."

I disagree with your "definition" of endurance. Enduring pain for eventual healing is NOT tolerance (countenancing) sin...period.


"A cheater to me is a married person who practices infidelity."

Agreed. So are fornicators.


"A hypocritical Christian, to me, is someone who proclaims to everyone that will listen that he or she is a Christian, but judges everyone else’s beliefs, behaviors, etc.while not walking the walk that he or she talks."

That definition fits EVERYONE, me, you, all the posters on MB, all the people in the world, from all walks of life and all faiths. There is nothing "exclusive" to Christians in your definition, but you used your attack of "exclusivity" by applying it specfically and only at Christians. Here's the part you may not understand, a person becomes a "Christian" by accepting Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior and accepting His free gift of forgiveness of sins. It has NOTHING to do with being "perfect" (none of IS perfect). Even Christians will still commit sins because we are still fighting our fallen sin-nature and fallen flesh.


"Right and wrong to me is, pretty much, spelled out in the 10 commandments. I think we are confusing "intolerant" with accountability. Sure, I do not think cheating is tolerable. Obviously, according to the 10 commandments, I am not the only one. However, I do believe a cheater can be forgiven."

Okay. And under what circumstances DOES one forgive a "cheater?" What do they have to do to "merit" forgiveness as you see it? And regardless of what they do, WHY should any "cheater" be forgiven the rape of a marriage?
According to the Mosaic Law, pertaining to the 10 Commandments, there was NO forgiveness, just death as a penalty for "cheating." So if the 10 C's are the sole determinant for you, where does forgiveness fit in that "belief?"


"I don't have intolerance for religion. I just have a problem with people that use it to build themselves up while putting others down."

You'll generally find that this "shoe" fits all people. You seem to think it's "exclusive" to "people of faith," or as you previously indicated, "exclusive" to Christians.

Want me to "prove the point?" I have "put down WAT" on occasion and WAT has put me and Christianity down many times. I am a Christian. WAT is not. I try to "build up Christ," not me. WAT tries to build up a more "humanistic" framework.

We have had some "unloving" and "distasteful" rows. Why? Because both of us are the same....human beings created by God with strong emotions, a modicum of learning and experience, a fallen nature, and the ability to "choose poorly and sin" at times.

But your answer, "I don't have an intolerance for religion" begs the question. The question was, "do you have an intolerance for the Christian religion?" What you have said seems to indicate you do, that's why I asked specifically.


"I made a post that was taken as "attacking." I apologized. If you cannot accept that, I understand. We all make mistakes."

I think the "problem," if there is a problem, is in the "sincerity meter" of one's "I'm sorry" statement. You'll find that, in general around here, simplistic answers aren't enough. We tend to look for the "heart" behind the statements because we all know how easy it is to just say something that a person might want the "hearer" to hear as a way to placate them.


"I was with my wife for 7 years, married for 3."

Although this implies that you are now divorced, you don't state it as a simple fact. Furthermore, as part of your "personal" search, you don't give us and details of the cause for the apparent ending of the marriage after 3 years. WHAT happened? We don't know if you were unfaithful, your wife was unfaithful, why you are NOT married now, infidelity or not. We don't know how long you may have been divored, if you are single now or remarried, etc. Or we could be wrong, but your use of the word "was" indicates past tense and not present tense.

We understand how difficult it is to talk about personal things, but that's one of the reasons people are anonymous on MB (unless they choose to reveal their true names). IF you truly want some help or some answers/suggestions, you need to stop making us try to pull answers out of you like "pulling teeth," and give us a complete sketch of your personal situation and what it is you are looking for.


God bless.