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Joined: Oct 2006
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Mort, at this point I have to disagree with some of what you said....

Every couple has problems, every relationship has problems.. friends, kids, spouces, bosses, whatever. life is ebb and flow. If you put into 1 more than you can afford, another is going to be stressed. The trick is to prioritize and not worry about the others as much.

Well I did prioritize. My Wife and kids were always at the top of my list. I am no saint, and sometimes other things would push my responsibilites of these lower down on my imediate list. However, that is one of the things Jessica and I excelled at. We were always able to right each other and bring back a balance that was acceptable. I can not even begin to count the # of times that I have heard Jessica say that I was here centering rock, and vise versa.

Though I am not a Christian, I have studied the bible and I understand faith in each other and how it aquwaits to Christ.

These become my issues. I am convinced the Jessicas EN priorities are soemthing that I have continualy met. Starting with Admiration. How do I fix something, that isn't broken in me? I think personally she has some type or personality disorder, and if you know anything about phyciatry, you'll know that they are not curable. You can only control them.

I am not going t5o go through a process with her, that in the end will be fruitless and that may be the full wrong direction. I will not move another inch along it with her until she is fully diagnosed by someone other than an internet forum!

Vash


It is better to say nothing and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt... ~Sun Tsu
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BTW, Mort and others, no disrespect to you all here, I just think she may have bigger problems than infidelity. She has certainly done that, but I am not so sure the answers are as black and white as they appear through this program.

AND, I am having a very bad day today....

Thanks,
V


It is better to say nothing and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt... ~Sun Tsu
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Vash:

My BS thought for many years, that if I would "just get right!" that the M would be successful.

Does MrsV have problems? Yes.

Does Vash? From your post, you appear not to think so. This is blunt. But my BS was there as well, long before my A was discovered. Did she change as a result of DDay? Yes. Because if she didn't, our M would be the same as it was pre-A. And if I didn't change, the same result. I am a dramatically different person than I was pre-A. My close friends can sense the change in me, but do not know what really changed. My point being that the changes that you might have to make because of your wifes A may only ever be noticed by her, and she is the only one that matters.

IMHO

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Quote:

AND, I am having a very bad day today....




ya know what Vash, that is OK.

I hope you are saying "you are darn right that is OK!!"

if not, then give yourself permission to have a bad day. it really is OK. It is expected.

BUT know that every day will not be a bad day. bad days are mostly due to your emotional state of the day, and emotions change!!

so my advice to you is to really take to heart that you are having a bad day today and think about what you need to do to turn it around.

do you need Jessica to do something in particular (including leaving you alone)? if so tell her.

nicely.

honey, i find i am having a hard day today, this would help me....

if you don't know, then say "i'm having a hard day today and i don't know what will help but i wanted you to know"

that is radical honesty.

if you kmow what would help you then DO IT.

if you don't know, think hard about it and figure something out.

i was never good at being able to self comfort, but i am learning and it really helps our relationship.

not that you have to totally self comfort. again i say if there is something she can do just tell her.

and again i will add - NICELY. always nicely. otherwise you run the fear of her defenses coming up.

i am sorry you are hurting today.

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Vash,

My ex told me AFTER our divorce that she had been sexually abuses when she was 11. Once I learned this I did research. I discovered that she is following a pattern of behavior consistent with victims of abuse. From what I have studied, untreated victims tend to have many problems when they get older. They tend to have problems with sexuality, such as excessive promiscuity or they go the other directions, where they don't enjoy or desire sex. They have many short, intense relationships and are likely to bail out of a marriage or a relationship when it becomes intimate. They have very high incidences of depression, self esteem issues, and feel a constant need to validate their own sexuality by the opposite sex. This was the problem with my ex. She insisted in having male friends and I had a problem with that while we were married. Since our divorce, she has gone out with over 10 men in 6 months. Not all were relationships, but most were dates.

Why do I tell you this? Because indeed my ex has an unresolved psychological trauma that is causing havoc in her life and has now turned the lives of her family upside down. Was this abuse the cause of our D? No. Does her behavior fall in line with that abuse? In my opinion, yes. Very much so.

Your wife may have some issues she's never revealed to you. In such a case, what will you do? If she does have a psychiatric issue, then you'll be at a crossroads about what to do with that information. In my opinion, that falls into the whole "sickness and in health". You may or may not feel different.

I only present this as something for you to chew on. May or may not be helpful.

I can completely relate to how you perceived your marriage. I was deployed and very fondly thought of my wife and kids every day. I couldn't wait to get home and tell and show my wife how much I loved her. She dropped the divorce bomb on me the very first day and then I found out about her cheating a week later.

Her website screamed insecurity and it was very evident that she sought that male approval and attention. It was very painful for me to see this. She dismissed it as harmless flirting. It wasn't.

The WS doesn't see their behavior as wrong or harmless. They become a WS well before an affair actually happens. It's a buildup. My ex saw no problem with the flirting she was doing and she justified her behavior by stating that her mind was made up at that point and she was emotionally out of the marriage.

She never imagined that her web page would be so painful to me or that I would see it as harmless. She didn't even think her comments to other men were inappropriate for a married woman to make. She tried to make me feel I was crazy.

This is why we are telling you that you are a lucky man. You have a FWS who is trying to find answers to her behavior. She's asking for forgiveness and wants desperately to regain your trust and love. I would give anything to be in your shoes and have my ex feel and act that way.

This doesn't minimze your pain or make it any less. We know how you feel. We will root you on and support you because some of us have been lucky enough to have a spouse that have seen the light, but many of us haven't.

Good luck to you.


BS-34
EXWW-27
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DS-Twin boys, 2
D-Day-28 Feb 06
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LG, I am not saying I have no problems... I am well aware that I have them and what most of them are. In fact I even know the ones that piss Jessica off. What I AM saying, is that my being a procrastinator, is not what casued her to go F another guy.

What I am truly saying is this, I think that she has an issue that can not be fixed by following Dr.H's steps. I will not be one to put have to put into my signature a date on a false recovery and that I was fooled by her yet again! Instead, I will take steps to protect myself first, and then follow through "a" process with her.

If Admiration is her top emotional need, then there is truly nothing I can do to save this marriage, becasue what I AM saying, is that if what I gave her before was not enough, then it never will be, and I won't ever compete with another man for my wife again! Weather that is becasue I don't have one or not is fine with me.

V


It is better to say nothing and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt... ~Sun Tsu
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Vash:

I understand exactly what you are saying. My ex was a former model and she simply could not ask enough how beautiful she was. To make a long story short my doctor and lawyer told me she sufferred from Borderline Personality Disorder and that it was virtually a losing cause to try to deal with it in the long run. I suggest strongly that you look up Borderline Personality Disorder and see if it fits with your wife. I wish you luck.

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Vash,

You may very well be on the right track. That's how I felt about my w. I feel I was a great h that gave her a lot of attention and support. This underlying problem and trauma from the sexual abuse, however, was always going to be lying underneath the surface to sabotage things. Perhaps it is something you feel she needs to get cared for by a doc.

What is the problem you think she has?


BS-34
EXWW-27
DD-4
DS-Twin boys, 2
D-Day-28 Feb 06
Divorced-24 March 06 (no contest D)
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Papa, there was an incedent in her childhood. You will have to ask her about what it was and when as it is not my place to reveal that kind of information about her.

What will I do you ask if that is the case? I will do what any caring person should do in a situation akin to this one, I will help her heal herself. Then I will reevaluate what her and my chances at happiness are, then go from there.

I am hurt, but I am not an A-hole. As you know or see with your wife, at this point there really is nothing you can do for her, I am sorry, but thats the truth. Because of 15 minutes of her child hood where some MFer without morals corrupted her, your wife has really been on a path to self destruction. you had the unfortuanate circumstances of just being in the way. I feel for you as you may understand the path I may have to walk.

I hope that this is not the case for me, but I will do what I must.

I am sorry for your situation.

V


It is better to say nothing and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt... ~Sun Tsu
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Quote:

What I am truly saying is this, I think that she has an issue that can not be fixed by following Dr.H's steps.




Me too, Vash. I have an issue, at least one, that can not be fixed by following Dr. H's steps. I'm also a survivor of CSA. And I'm working on it in IC.

But in the days and weeks after my affair, this place served as sort-of a triage for my marriage -- emergency first aide to stop the bleeding until extensive surgery could be performed.

At this point, I think it's safe to say that my marriage has survived my affair. I'm not so sure it will survive my issue(s). Regardless, I believe both my H and I will be better off for all the soul searching and growing we've done in the last year or so.

I've read Jess's thread. She seems willing to do the work needed both to straighten herself out, and to help you heal. She's taking the first steps here. Is she willing to dig even deeper with an IC?

BTW, my counselor suggested last week that I write a mission statement for my life. I did it... and when I told my best friend what my mission statement is... she squeeked, "OOOOooooh! That's very Taoist of you!!!".

If there's hope for me, I believe there's hope for Jess, too.

And please add me to the list of people rooting for the two of you.

Take good care,
--SC


"I require more from my spouse than behaving well in order to avoid pain." (guess who)
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The key here is to have her recognize it. Show her my post if you want.

This could be a breakthrough moment for her. My ex doesn't see that what happened to her really affected her in terms of her ability to trust others and it was HUGE when it came to that constant need to have men's attention to validate her own sexuality.

If she suffered from the same issue, then it is something she absolutely MUST get help for or at least recognize. My ex has told me not to blame her abuse for her behavior. I don't fully, but it was a MAJOR contributor to how she sees the world.

The signs were there all along. I just never recognized them. Anxiety attacks, depression, excessive makeup, overly affectionate with a new date (me, when we started dating), insistance on having male friends even when I wasn't comfortable with it, dating 10 men in 6 months, leaving as soon as they want to get more serious, awkwardness in social situations, extremely sensitive to other's opinions and criticism.

If your ex has suffered from this, then you may have found the very root cause of the problem and it is one she's doomed to repeat if she doesn't recognize it.


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Vash,

I would like to encourage you to re-read this entire thread from beginning to end. Take your time and absorb it.

I hate to be blunt because I know as a BS, blunt is not something that is tolerated very well st this point (post A). I do not know you but I am getting to have a suspicion that you do not see your role in the A and you do not see your role in the recovery or even your role in her recovery of any other underlying issues she may have.

You talk about what you want ("my chances at happiness"). You are here because you want to save your marriage. Why? Becuase thats what you want. Why would you rely on someone else (your W) to make it happen for you? What will you do to get what you want? Will you change your approach to your W? Will you change your friends? Will you change your habits? Will you divorce your wife? Will you allow your children to be raised in a broken home?

The bottom line is each one of these rests in your mind carrying a distrinct level of priority. What will you change to attain or retain priority one? If you change nothing, nothing will change. Therefore your number one priority will stay number one. Is you marriage you number one priority?

I dont want to come here, write mean stuff then leave. I am not here to set you on edge either. I do care about your marriage and your children. I do however understand if you totally disagree with my post. It doesnt mean you are right or wrong nor does it mean I am right or wrong. These are only my thoughts to you and whoever chooses to read this post.

Good luck,

2LLP


BS(me)-41
FWS(wife)-39
D-11
D-13
S-15
Dday-1 10/05/05
Dday-2 06/02/06
Dday-3 07/14/06
Married - 17 years, together 23
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Quote:

Why do I have to do this all this work, and change all these ways, when I am not the one that broke this trust...





Because you love her.

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Quote:

I would like to encourage you to re-read this entire thread from beginning to end. Take your time and absorb it.




I have and I do. These are not just words that I write here. As you know, these are my feelings at the time that I write them. I am a BS, and I hate that so much that I even dislike typing "BS". I WANT it to be over... In actuallity I want it to never have happened.



Quote:

I hate to be blunt because I know as a BS, blunt is not something that is tolerated very well st this point (post A). I do not know you but I am getting to have a suspicion that you do not see your role in the A and you do not see your role in the recovery or even your role in her recovery of any other underlying issues she may have.




You are wrong that I don't want the bluntness. Please understand that I need the shock value of your words right now.



Quote:

You talk about what you want ("my chances at happiness"). You are here because you want to save your marriage. Why? Becuase thats what you want.




You are right. I do want what I want. But right now I am not really sure what that is. Can you understand that?



Quote:

Why would you rely on someone else (your W) to make it happen for you?




I am not. My points are just that I will not go through a process that I think is doomed to fail (on her end) until I know that she is not really ill. I don't want her to be ill, I want there to be a reasonable explanation for this so that I can make my choice and move on with or without her.



Quote:

What will you do to get what you want?




I will live. I understand what your asking, and honestly, I can predict the future. I have been very upfront about this. I will move in steps for now hoping that the choices I make are the best for me and my family.



Quote:

Will you change your approach to your W?




Absolutly. I will do what it takes, whatever it does take.



Quote:

Will you change your friends?




I already started on this process. I have pretty much cut out the group of friends that we hung around that was the circle for the other man as well. If you are refering to my female friend that has been mentioned some. I won't. In fact, Jessica has mentioned that if her and I do work it out, she is interested in persueing a friendship with my friend and her significant other as couples. She as well recognizes that we need to move on to more mature friends.



Quote:

Will you change your habits?




I have and will continue to do so. I think you might misunderstand me here. I am willing to acknowledge my part, and to take steps to fix them, I am just not sure what the problem is yet, so I am not sure where to begin. Believe me I want this more than anything... I want there to be a tangible problem that I can work on. I really do! Do you understand this?



Quote:

Will you divorce your wife?




I am not sure yet.



Quote:

Will you allow your children to be raised in a broken home?




I don't want to. If needs dictate that it happens, then it will. What if it turned out that I was a serial killer? Should my wife stick by my side and keep our childeren here just for the sake of havinv a unified home? I know I am going overboard with the example, but I am sure you get my meaning...



Quote:

The bottom line is each one of these rests in your mind carrying a distrinct level of priority. What will you change to attain or retain priority one? If you change nothing, nothing will change. Therefore your number one priority will stay number one. Is you marriage you number one priority?




This is a tricky question. I don't think I am ready to answer it fully yet. Don't mistake my hesitation as non answer though, becasue my first answer was my childeren... but I am not sure thats right or fair.



Quote:

I dont want to come here, write mean stuff then leave. I am not here to set you on edge either. I do care about your marriage and your children. I do however understand if you totally disagree with my post. It doesnt mean you are right or wrong nor does it mean I am right or wrong. These are only my thoughts to you and whoever chooses to read this post.

Good luck,

2LLP





I understand. I do not feel attacked by you. I feel great ful that you allowed me some self evaluation and allowed me to share it with you. I enjoy that, its the insults that I can not stand. Thank you for your time and concern. I look forward to hearing more from you...

I am in a better state right now.

V


It is better to say nothing and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt... ~Sun Tsu
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Vash:

Thanks for hanging around.

Mortarman and Mr Goodstuff, have laid out for you, ahem, some good stuff.

They are some of the best on here. And if you keep getting comments from them, it means you are on the right track.

And speaking of track, you are just leaving the station on this journey with your spouse. Your luggage is stored away, and you are wandering up and down the hallways of the train wondering what your new surroundings are like. The journey will be long, but it is one that needs to be taken.

The train will stop at various stations, and as you & MrsV grow, things will be left behind at those stations, although you won't remember leaving them.

Eventually, you will arrive at a station, and you and MrsV will get off the train. It will be a beautiful place to get off, you didn't realize that that is were you were going to get off, you just finally realize that this part of the journey is over. Once you get to this station, the wheres and the hows of how you got there are immmaterial, only that the journey reached its conclusion.

The only trouble is staying on the train. What gets left behind is resentment, the feelings that you really knew your spouse, the old Vash, the old MrsV, your 1st wifes infidelity, this wifes infidelity, your old marriage, the knowledge that all things in life can not be controlled, and some of the other luggage we all haul around.

If we do not make the full journey, some of the luggage is left behind, and we still have to carry the rest. And it is heavy, and we can crack under the weight.

Me and my spouse are still on the train. We see the glimpses of the final station ahead, and that is very gratifying.

LG

PS, Go Tigers!

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Vash,

Wow! I must say, I am very impressed with your approach to my questions. I dont claim to have all the answers either and I think you show that you are more than willing to look very deep into all that is going on. I think your mind is in the right place to at least work toward a recovery. I like the fact that you are making so many changes that many dont seems to relate to a stressed marriage.

I look forward to reading more about you anf your W.

2LLP


BS(me)-41
FWS(wife)-39
D-11
D-13
S-15
Dday-1 10/05/05
Dday-2 06/02/06
Dday-3 07/14/06
Married - 17 years, together 23
My story - http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...rt=1&PHPSESSID=
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