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"I guess I’m looking for reassurance that I’m not going to spend the rest of my marriage in the shadow of a fantasy. That at some point he might see some flaws in her and as a result his feelings for her will finally rot and die!"

It could go either way, you know.

Some of us are still dealing with FWW feelings for OM to one degree or another years later.

I remember a post by a BW maybe two years ago. Her FWH had ended the affair four (4) years earlier and everything was going MB style great for them. They did it by the book - NC, RH, ENs and all.

Then he ran into OW totally unexpectedly in a gym. They had coffee together.

He left his family for OW just a couple of months later.

Just one example of why Dr H says even moving far away to protect your M is not too extreme .

Just remember, there is no such thing as closure. That’s total unmitigated hogwash. He mans up or he waffles. His choice, like everything else in life.

And not manning up, not doing whatever it takes for as long as it takes, is his explicit choice too.

ed: Tell him I said so.


With prayers,

Last edited by Aphelion; 04/13/07 02:27 PM.

"Never forget that your pain means nothing to a WS." ~Mulan

"An ethical man knows it is wrong to cheat on his wife. A moral man will not actually do it." ~ Ducky

WS: They are who they are.

When an eel lunges out
And it bites off your snout
Thats a moray ~DS
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otw,I read somewhere on here that a "closure meeting" simply means that they want to keep contact.

Don't buy it.

He already "closed" it when he agreed to no contact.

Sorry. I just remember going through this myself. FWH agreed to no contact, then 3 weeks later, wanted this kind of "closure" talk with her. He was, in fact, still very foggy.

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Quote:

So funny for me to think that our FWS's thought the OP's actually "cared" about them and their well being, and their children. If they did care, they would not have participated in an A. Did they really think, for instance, that each other's children were going to welcome the OP with open arms? Perhaps they thought it would all happen with time, kids are resiliant and all that malarky.





You've hit the nail on the head...what word occurs most often in that paragraph you wrote...THINK/THOUGHT.

As my FWH explained it: "I just wasn't thinking." He said his dad had always stress the motto "THINK before you do anything stupid that you'll regret" and the time he chose to ignore that wisdom is when the seeds of the A were planted.

When the hormones and emotional rush overcome a WS, I believe to some extent their brains do shut down. This is not giving them a pass in any way - I'm just trying to look at things dispassionately and logically for once. They aren't envisioning their spouse in pain or the kids crying the first time they hop into bed with the OP. Otherwise the vast majority couldn't follow through. I believe most turn OFF their thinking caps and conscience, consciously or not, otherwise they couldn't proceed. This is just another of my unique perspectives/theories.

Having an affair is the ultimate act of thoughtlessness and selfishness, and when you boil it down, in many ways it just smacks of brutally simple stupidity to me.


~Silverwraith

Me - BS - 44
Him - FWH - 45
2 1/2 yr. marriage
PA was all during 2005 during our engagement and up to the night before our wedding (2/17/06); EA continued afterwards.
DDay - 3/2006
NC - 10/2006
Retrouvaille - 4/2007
------<@

"Speak when you are angry, and you will make the best speech you will ever regret."
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"Having an affair is the ultimate act of thoughtlessness and selfishness, and when you boil it down, in many ways it just smacks of brutally simple stupidity to me."

IMO, most every WS always had that mean, selfish, thoughtless streak inside. Even before the adultery.

It shows all over this forum.

It shows irl.

It was the same M, and the BS has the same if not more complaints, and the same opportunities. But who did it?

As an example, OM started the LTA with my FWW on his one yo daughter's first birthday. Instead of staying home with his family, that's the day they first climbed in bed together. This is not, "He wasn't thinking." This is who he is.

It is who they all are.


"Never forget that your pain means nothing to a WS." ~Mulan

"An ethical man knows it is wrong to cheat on his wife. A moral man will not actually do it." ~ Ducky

WS: They are who they are.

When an eel lunges out
And it bites off your snout
Thats a moray ~DS
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I spent some time reading today and came across this page which was very long but very useful, just in case anyone else is stuck in a similar place...

Romantic Affairs Revisited


BW 32
WH 32
2 cute kids
Together 15 years
DD #1 27/4/05
VERY FALSE RECOVERY
DD #2 28/1/07
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For what it's worth, the only place the OP in my case holds in MY heart is scar tissue. Of course, that will always be there, but not in a good way.

Hang in there!

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Aphelion,
I am sad you feel that way- the Formerly Wayward Spouses I know were not mean, selfish, thoughtless, etc. . . before or after the affairs. That would be saying that it is a character issue.

As for not every having contact - I firmly believe that is the only way. My H had not seen his former GF (who became ow) in more than 25 years. She had broken up with him, broken their engagement and broken his heart. All those years later she started contacting him- depsite all the misery she put him through, they started 'talking' again.

He knows there can never be any type of contact again.

He is repulsed by himself and her and their actions and what it did to me and our marriage.

It just takes time.

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Onethousand,

Has your H done any therapy to work on his issues and find out what he is missing in himself that left him vulnerable for an A?

If not, IMO he should. Therapy can help him see the distorted thinking that goes with having an A and why he "needed" validation from someone else. It will also show him he doesn't need closure and why.





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Neither of us has been for any counselling. We are both very introspective though and have often stayed up until 3am talking about that particular issue. During the false recovery we also did the Dr Phil Relationship Rescue workbook which was very insightful.
Essentially there are two parts to what made him vulnerable; one is that he didn’t have a clear vision in his head about what the role of a husband is/should be. The other is that he felt that for various reasons he had lost his way. Added to all of this we were new parents with no family support nearby and hadn’t worked out how to parent together.


BW 32
WH 32
2 cute kids
Together 15 years
DD #1 27/4/05
VERY FALSE RECOVERY
DD #2 28/1/07
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From Alphean:

"I remember a post by a BW maybe two years ago. Her FWH had ended the affair four (4) years earlier and everything was going MB style great for them. They did it by the book - NC, RH, ENs and all.

Then he ran into OW totally unexpectedly in a gym. They had coffee together.

He left his family for OW just a couple of months later."


It's stories like these that scare the Holy He77 out of me.

As BS's who try and make it work, despite everything, we sure are in a very vulnerable position.

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Quote:

...Formerly Wayward Spouses I know were not mean, selfish, thoughtless, etc. . . before or after the affairs. That would be saying that it is a character issue.




Of course it is a character issue!

To one degree or another it is always a character issue.

If it is not a character issue, you and I would have an A or two by now.

There is always opportunity. There is always someone out there who will meet some of your needs.

There is always a wish for more or less of something, ENs or LBs - something.

And there is always at the root of every affair, character.

Character is what you do when you think no one is watching.

With prayers,


"Never forget that your pain means nothing to a WS." ~Mulan

"An ethical man knows it is wrong to cheat on his wife. A moral man will not actually do it." ~ Ducky

WS: They are who they are.

When an eel lunges out
And it bites off your snout
Thats a moray ~DS
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I agree with Aphelion. Someone said here a while ago that it's not a character issue because, as Harley says, we are all capable of affairs.

but I do think that, while that may be true, it is character that stops us.

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This is something I have been mulling over time and time again.

First off, right afetr counseling one day after d day 1 we went to a park to talk and and kb was acting really weird and distant, then we drove awhile and she freaked out when I told her that I wanted to tell the OMs W about what I thought had been an EA. None of that made any freaking sense until the second d day when most of the truth came out. then it hit me like a brick, she didnt want me to talk to the OMs W because she was still smack dab in the middle of the A and that would have ruined it for them and she would have had to choose between her soulmate and me.

So, 3 d days later and she talks very like she cant stand the guy. what changed? My biggest concern of the future is that she will accidently run into him again, this could be years down the road which she may think time would defuse her feeling but I totally disagree. Once again, one thing will lead to another then the next thing ya know, A number 2.

Its really sad how A's cause so many problems FOR THE REST OF OUR LIVES. I dont get it so much that I really wonder if certain people just dont have it in them to have an A even if the conditions were just right.

2LLP


BS(me)-41
FWS(wife)-39
D-11
D-13
S-15
Dday-1 10/05/05
Dday-2 06/02/06
Dday-3 07/14/06
Married - 17 years, together 23
My story - http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...rt=1&PHPSESSID=
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Quote:

Neither of us has been for any counselling. We are both very introspective though and have often stayed up until 3am talking about that particular issue. During the false recovery we also did the Dr Phil Relationship Rescue workbook which was very insightful.
Essentially there are two parts to what made him vulnerable; one is that he didn’t have a clear vision in his head about what the role of a husband is/should be. The other is that he felt that for various reasons he had lost his way. Added to all of this we were new parents with no family support nearby and hadn’t worked out how to parent together.




Unless he works those issues out with a professional he will be vulnerable again if the opportunity presents. JMO anyway.

It's not just knowing what caused it, it's also about getting to the core and figuring out how how to deal in a much more healthy manner.

Initially, I was against therapy for myself. Now I feel it is the greatest gift I have ever given to myself and it has helped me in all aspects of my life.





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“It's stories like these that scare the Holy He77 out of me.

As BS's who try and make it work, despite everything, we sure are in a very vulnerable position.”

I understand your fear. I have felt it too.

But there is a way out.

Often overlooked around here is the self-improvement, the self-protection aspects of recovery.

You are not just recovering your marriage. You are recovering yourself. Or, in some cases making yourself. (In my case I don’t think I existed as an individual until I started doing this work.)

You should have as a goal that you become differentiated. You become strong, joyous and are married by choice, not by need. Lovingly detached.

Then when it happens again, (err, if it happens again) you will be so strong it will be a mere speed bump in the road of life.

Get to the place where if it happens again you know in your soul legal separation or divorce is preferable. Then you will feel safe.

This is not easy, but it works.


With prayers,


"Never forget that your pain means nothing to a WS." ~Mulan

"An ethical man knows it is wrong to cheat on his wife. A moral man will not actually do it." ~ Ducky

WS: They are who they are.

When an eel lunges out
And it bites off your snout
Thats a moray ~DS
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Agree with LC.

I truly believe good individual counseling is what started my FWH in thinking differently, and ultimately put us on a path to recovery.

MC is now doing the same as we both get to examine who we are, we're we've been, and what brought us here. We're learning how to break old patterns, how to establish true intimacy, and how to have a real marriage.

I so wish we'd have done this YEARS ago.

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LC,

I've been reading this all day at work with no time to reply. I've been waiting for someone to get to exactly the issue you just raised.

All,

The problem that needs to be dealt with isn't only the OP and any residual feelings the FWS has left for them. The real problem that needs to be solved is establishing of boundaries by the FWS that allows different choices in the future, whether they run into OP or a new OP pops up out of nowhere.

It is easy to sit here today and say "I would never do that again..." and mean it, under today's circumstances. But what happens if 5 or 10 years down the road circumstances change? What if the marriage isn't as good as it should be? What if a "crisis" comes up that the FWS has never been able to come to grips with in the past, such as the death of a family member or the job they had for 20 years is suddenly gone?

What keeps the FWS from losing their way again?


As for feelings left for the OP; If Dr H is right and his concepts of the LB$ and ENs being how you make deposits is correct and if there is a "romantic threshold" in the LB$ that causes us to begin loving someone else, then the FWS DID love the OP and had fallen out of love with BS. They didn't just "feel" like it happened, it really happened, just like it did when BS and FWS were dating before they got married.

The question then becomes, "What will I do to avoid falling in love with anyone else in the future?" It can be avoided; love isn't magic. It isn't something that happens to us, it is something we choose to do. As such, we can chose to not do it, but recognize the situation that could lead to it and avoid it...as in RUN LIKE H377!

In answer to the question originally asked, let me ask this; does anyone remember their "first love" fondly? Do you have good memories of the person you dated years ago? Do you even sometimes "miss" an old flame from long ago?

In the original question I think is a different question; "How much longer will WS continue to hurt me by defending OP and talking fondly about OP?"

Mark

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Unlike you, Mark, I have time on my hands to post but nothing to say because everything has already been said.

Surprise, surprise......come to think of it, was it on this thread that you insulted me by saying it's unusual that you agreed with me for once? (I'll laugh with you, my friend since you're giving me fishing lessons...otherwise I would take my marbles and go home. )

So if I don't say anything, you don't have any reason to disagree, right?


OOOOps...I lied ....I do have something to say/ask.

How's it going onethousandwords?

Which abbreviation to you prefer? 1KW? 100W? 1THSND? other?

Ace

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Hi Ace,

Thanks for asking!
Today was a good day again. The replies I got to my question give me different perspectives which are so valuable. FWH reads the replies too and it gives us plenty food for thought and discussion.

We have a pretty happy family life, even during the affair and just after DDay and now still, most days are good and on the weekends we always do fun family stuff together. During the affair, even though the “surface” of our life was still calm and enjoyable, there was a subtle, underlying, barely noticeable hostility/uneasiness. Now that I actually know what was going on and everything is out in the open and there are no more secrets to keep, the atmosphere is a gazillion times better; like this enormous, invisible weight has been lifted. So even though I’m utterly devastated and heartbroken to have found out the truth, it’s way better than it felt before – feeling like something was wrong, but not knowing if I was going crazy or just being negative or something.

My FWH is making a huge effort to rebuild our marriage. It’s not like he was always an ass and this is just another thing to add to the laundry list. I really do feel that he’s a good person who messed up, albeit monumentally. The fact that he is making an effort and is totally honest about what goes on in his head does make it so much easier to forgive him and to consider a future with him.

All that said, there is a lot of pain. And because of the broken trust during the 2 year false recovery, there is a part of me that is sceptical about this recovery business – like I don’t want to get too comfortable just in case this isn’t real. Probably just part of the fun of recovery!


BW 32
WH 32
2 cute kids
Together 15 years
DD #1 27/4/05
VERY FALSE RECOVERY
DD #2 28/1/07
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 34
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I also just want to thank everyone for taking the time to reply. I'm sure that a lot of you must feel like you are constantly repeating yourselves over and over, but you all change people's futures in such a positive way. This forum has certainly been responsible for a lot of personal growth in me and will be a big part of what saves my family. So thanks!


BW 32
WH 32
2 cute kids
Together 15 years
DD #1 27/4/05
VERY FALSE RECOVERY
DD #2 28/1/07
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