ss - I'm going to respond to some of your comments soon...

I've been reading neaksis' thread on how to spot child molesters - I have often wondered if my H was abused as a child....

I've been reading the links she posted about attachment disorder, and I think this applies to my H....a lot of the behaviour is consistent with my H's behaviour, and what I know about his childhood history.....

-H was subjected to time-schedule meeting of needs as a baby...his needs were not met when he cried....
-His mum told me he never cried at night...that she put him in his own room and shut the door....claims he never once woke her in the night....I don't believe this is possible for a newborn...(this breaks my heart thinking about it)
-His mum also told me she would put him in his pram and put him down at the bottom of the garden all afternoon, so that she couldn't hear him cry....
-His mum once said that her FIL told her she cared more about her dogs than she did her children (early signs that other family members noticed her neglect)
-His mum told me H didn't sit up by himself until he was 1 year old....when I asked if he was allowed to crawl on the floor, she said no - she kept him in his cot or his pram at all times....
-She also said he didn't speak until he was about 3
-H's mum's mother died when H was a small baby. I suspect that H's mum was severely depressed, as she was very dependent on her mum, her father having died when she was 12, and she was an only child (actually a surviving twin - her twin died at birth)
-H's mum was never physically affectionate...she kissed hello and goodbye, but there was no physical warmth...she did not hug. This was also noticeable in the way she related to my children...she did not want to hold them as babies...when I once asked her if she could feed OS his bottle, she had to give up...she became irritated with him and could not "soothe" or relate to him eye-to-eye...he would not settle in her arms....
-H's mum was extremely controlling...fixated on routine...obsessive with food....

-This is not unusual with British people of an older generation, so I am not saying she did not love him, in fact, I know for a fact that she did love him, and that he loved her....but the above examples are facts, and I cannot believe they did not have an impact on my H's development as an emotional human being...

I don't think my H was a victim of SA by his family...but it is possible that because of the neglect, he was a vulnerable child who was an easy target during the time he was in boarding school.....(also common in the UK)

When I discovered my H's EA(s)...one of the things he shouted at me once was...

"You can't keep telling me what I am doing wrong!!....That is bad parenting!" (!!!)

I was taken aback by this when it happened and my response to him then was "I am not your parent! You are not a 17-yr old boy!"

But what has become clear is that H has placed me in the role of parent, indeed has demanded from me that I be the "good parent" he never had....I feel I have got sucked into trying to fulfill that role for him...in fact, it is a role I am currently acting out, I know....

But it is a role which it is impossible to fulfill, and which will never be fulfilling for me or him....

The priest I saw last put it succinctly...he said "you are a grown woman and you are married to a 10-yr-old boy....of course you are unhappy...it is not possible for you to be happy and be married to a child..."

This "child" who lives inside my H has a lot of the behaviour in the description of attachment disorder....

Suppressed rage
Controlling....
(an example....trying to "help" by showing me how to do stuff....like peeling potatos and coring strawberries...I worked as a baker in a restaurant for five years..I KNOW the fastest way to core strawberries.....what is important to H is that I do it HIS way....the attention he pays to things being done HIS way in the house is constant and all-pervading)
Extremely charming to friends and outsiders
Severe difficulties in work relationships - works best alone
No physical affection (towards me, shows affection to his children)
-will hug me if asked. Does not initiate affection - never did, except at beginning of relationship - does not hug and kiss in bed (never did)
-rejects meeting of my emotional needs - responds to my need for comfort with hostility or aggression
Manipulative of counsellors
-one website states that "attachment therapy" takes place WITH the parent in the room, as with traditional therapy, the child with RAD manipulates the therapist...this is my experience with my H.....my H is calm and reasonable inside the therapy room IF he feels he can control the therapist, but he exploded into rage the minute he was out of earshot of the therapist. On two occasions, he exploded inside the therapy room, and therapy ended....since then, H has refused all therapy....will not consider it....
"Sabotages" positive interactions
Dominates a room when he is in it - "holds court"
Holds himself above others - has a superior, slightly sneering attitude (the children comment on this, don't like it), in other words, he is fully invested in being "right"


My H makes most sense to me if I regard him as a damaged child who is refusing to face the pain he suffered in childhood....however, I have failed to find a way to break down his walls and help him to heal.

Does this make sense?

What you are saying does make sense. I just keep wondering what you can do with what you are learning.

Believer said it looks a lot like the male/female thing. It does, however, you have tried the normal work arounds for those kinds of things, and it doesn't help. What it looks like to me is a person who is determined to keep all his bagage, and not give any of it up.

The things you have related about his childhood are so sad. It makes one want to help. I would guess though, that after one tries, and is rebuffed over and over, it gets more difficult to continue to try.

Wanted to post thoughts about the cd-player incident but my mom called, and some cousins from out of state dropped by, and she requested I visit for a while.

I hope you feel well today. It sounds like you did not get flooded, and if so, I am glad.

SS

Yup. I am asking myself this question, too. Like BrambleRose said to Skinsgal - stop trying to diagnose him and concentrate on diagnosing yourself. I am still trying to "diagnose" him...I feel like I am abandoning him if I stop....there's something in me that still wants to help him, even though he is not giving me the affection I need....


I think there IS the male/female thing, and I think I could do better on that. But I could get pretty good at that, and he would still be determined to hang on to his baggage. I have played my part in allowing him to hang on to it.[/quote]


Yes, it does. I broke off my first engagement with H. But we got back together because I first contacted him, then he invited me to come visit him and meet his parents. It was when I met his parents that it hit me how deprived of love he was and how much he needed someone's love. I wanted to fill that need. That was what hooked me in - now I realize that can be "co-dependency" - the "rescuer syndrome" - but I think it is also that I was a compassionate person and I DID love him, as I thought he loved me.


I still put my arm around H and steal a kiss on the top of his head sometimes. I don't expect anything back anymore. The RAD diagnosis helps explain the rebuffs, but that doesn't mean there is any hope for the relationship working the way a relationship should. And I am at the point where I don't feel like trying anymore.


Not to worry. I hope your camp went well. Thankfully, we didn't flood here, and I've had a good day with the boys. I'm also getting back to studying - got my books sorted out and organized, started reading systematically again, and have managed to clean up my desk. My friend is coming tomorrow to help me weed out my clothes closet. BIL also called today, so I had a long chat with him. He supports me in starting counselling for myself now....says he understands my fears about divorce and that its a good thing the boys are doing so well...understands why I have not wanted to cause them upheaval....there is no easy solution...says he and FIL are completely mystified by H's behaviour...cannot understand his reneging on his morals (which he is so public about)...cannot understand why he refuses to engage in any joint counselling with me...cannot see what I could have done better....FIL knows we are having problems but does not know the details...FIL disapproves of H going away on business trips for any longer than absolutely necessary...FIL feels helpless to do anything and also feels its not his place to tell H what to do, but is upset with him privately....

I'm going to get to some of the things you brought up, but I am still meditating on them.

I think today, I feel the talk with my BIL encourages me to take that step to call the counselling center. I have to get my focus off of H and back on to me...

I think I went off the idea of counselling for so long because I felt it didn't help US, which was what I really wanted. I also felt my counselor was inadequate, and that a lot of the techniquest they use are ineffective, and I don't want to go through more "useless" counselling. I want this time to be more productive. This time I will be more proactive about interviewing the counselor to try to find what I am looking for....

Yes, I am willing to talk about forgiveness and repentance. That is a big issue for me that I am feeling conflicted about. All viewpoints are welcome. The problem I am having is that I don't see any signs of repentance in my H. If my H is unrepentant, how can he get that he is forgiven? H's older woman friend has "poisoned the well" by telling him he is forgiven once and for all by Christ's death on the Cross, and that "God does not 'point the finger'....thereby casting me as "unforgiving" if I bring up the subject of his infidelity (which he has NEVER talked to me about and NEVER apologized for)....Her mantra to me was always "you MUST STOP 'pointing the finger' at him" (can you hear H yelling at me "you can't keep telling me what I'm doing wrong!"?). The thing is...I am NOT and never have been..a nag...I do NOT always tell H what he does wrong...this is a PROJECTION on his part...BUT I HAVE told H that what he does HURTS me...apparently that's not allowed...apparently me telling him that his lying and cheating hurt me constitutes 'pointing the finger'...so I "don't have the Holy Spirit", and I'm not showing him God's love...the last time I spoke to her 2 years ago, she remonstrated with me..."what does he see reflected back at him when he speaks to you...does he see love for him or love for yourself?" This after 3 D-DAYs!! She is an evangelical Christian and a former OW of his. So....yes, I know...confused...yes, no excuses....my fault for allowing it...my fault for accepting what I shouldn't have accepted....

But the theological issue is the 'pointing the finger' - I feel this is a barrier between us, built by her...and a gross misrepresentation of the Gospel....Scripture says "judge not, lest ye be judged by the same measure"...it does not say you are supposed to stand by passively and do and say nothing when a brother goes astray....Christ also said to the woman caught in adultery "Go AND SIN NO MORE...."..he did not say "GO and carry on with whatever you feel you need to make you happy regardless of what it does to your spouse and family..."

I'm interested in what others believe on this issue....emotionally I don't seem to be able to recover the love I once had for my H without him showing remorse for what he has done, and making the effort to change that comes with true repentance....and both those things require talking about it...at least him saying he is sorry, which hasn't happened, because I guess he feels he doesn't have to...and as a Catholic, I am stunned that he goes to Communion without having apologized to me for his adultery....he's probably (must have) gone to confession (Sacrament of Reconciliation) and feels he is "straight" with God, but he has made no effort to reconcile with me...this is what I need to work through with the priest....

There - that's given you something to chew on, ss -)..I'm sure you will have something that will help me work this thing through in my heart....

Gotta go now....all the best...

LIR

Can't help you there. But my how Scripture gets twisted. My ex continue his affair for almost 4 years, still claiming to be a Christian, feeling he was forgiven (even while still in the midst of his affair), and was active as a chaplain in different groups.

I just don't get it.

Yup. I guess it's the attitude of "do as I say, not as I do".....I don't get it either....one morality they have in public, but they do the opposite in private. The Scripture question seems to relate to something I read ForeverHers posted...that some evangelical Christians believe that Christ's death bought forgiveness for all sin once and for all, so we are all already forgiven no matter what we do....so the WS with this belief twists the teaching, ignores Christ's message of the need for repentance and goes on sinning, but feeling an entitlement to forgiveness as he sins....like he's taken out a license to sin..."I'm forgiven already....so you can't say anything to me, so there!" Sheesh!

I remember you posting about your ex, Believer. You sound MUCH happier now.

I think I am in BS fog, as described by Cherished.

I came back here not to elicit sympathy from anyone, but to try to break out of the isolation and push myself to get myself into IC....otherwise it would be legitimate to say I'm just complaining about something I refuse to do anything about.....

Just found loads of pornography cookies on our IMAC (shared computer in what is now room where H sleeps) - H has his own Macbook now, so am not sure whether this is OS or H accessing porn....also websites like "frenchsinglesonline" - dating sites. I know for a fact that H started looking at porn from the time we got the IMAC (our first computer) (Feb 2001) - H's first EA came to light June 2001. H's 2nd EA was with a French girl. H's 3rd EA (later PA) was with a German woman.

I know pornography is endemic today - I don't want my sons viewing this stuff...I also don't want them "learning" that they are "entitled" to internet "privacy" and "secrecy"....I've got to find some way to deal with this....moving that computer into the dining room is not really an option...our house is so small that there is literally nowhere to put it except where it is now...

LIR

I know pornography is endemic today - I don't want my sons viewing this stuff...I also don't want them "learning" that they are "entitled" to internet "privacy" and "secrecy"....I've got to find some way to deal with this....moving that computer into the dining room is not really an option...our house is so small that there is literally nowhere to put it except where it is now...

BTW, the bold thing is these brackets [] with a b in them and the same brackets with /b inside to stop. You don't need to type the whole word "bold." <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

If your H does not still use the computer in question, you can password it to control access, or you can install some parental control software. I have not used any of that software personally, but reports are that it works quite well. I am sure you could find reviews on the web.

If your H does use it still, and you want to have lots of fun, you can still password it. Fireworks are so lovely at some times of the year, and add to many celebrations. If you time it right, the boys may get a lot out of it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

I'm also getting back to studying - got my books sorted out and organized, started reading systematically again, and have managed to clean up my desk.

Is the bible one of the things you are reading regularly?
I highly recommend it.

Highly. <grin>

I don't know how you ladies get so much done, I am behind all the time.
SS

I have been reading up on the OS of the computer - it is possible to lock the computer with a password, set up individual accounts without administrator controls and set parental controls on those accounts which only allow that account holder to access previously vetted websites - in other words, no indiscriminate browsing...so that's what I'm doing....when that's done, I will delete all the cookies off the computer, then go back and check later...if there are porn cookies on the computer, I will know they belong to H....

Is the bible one of the things you are reading regularly?
I highly recommend it.

Highly. <grin>

Yes, ss - I am still reading...almost every day, although some days, I end up letting something get in the way....I am using a monthly magazine that I subscribe to, which helps enormously to keep me on track...

Have had busy days here...with YS's last days in primary school...very rewarding to go through all the leaving ceremonies, but sad, too....I couldn't be happier with YS primary school...they have done a beautiful job with all the kids in his year group...today is his last day and I have to go get him in an hour, so I can't post any more today....

I don't know how you ladies get so much done, I am behind all the time.

LOL! You're no slouch in the 'getting things done' department, IMHO! BTW, there's a great program called Getting Things Done...or GTD for short...book and website....I'm working on those principles, but can't say I am doing very well....still...I'm working on it....

Gotta go...

LIR

Quote:
Would you like to talk more about the details?



Do you mean do I want to talk more about the details, or about the Devil? Scared of him and wish he would let go of my H.

Many don't believe in God, or in the Devil. Both are real. I wish he would let go of your H too, because there is great danger there. We talk about it as if we can help him, but he needs to want help. The war between good and evil that is going on now (and much of it can't be seen with our natural eyes) makes most of the previous battles pale in comparison. Those who choose God will always be on the wining side - always. It is true that Jesus died in the battle long ago, but he looks to be in a pretty good position at this point in time........... as are those who follow him.


About that "only uses the information he has on you to help, never to harm..." It's good to remember this. Do you think that we should aspire to be the same? I have a lot of information on my H, and I really don't want to hurt him, but I have felt forced to expose some of his behaviour in order to protect myself.

Your need to protect yourself overrules any of his desires. I hope you will always protect yourself.

There are other concerns that I have. I always worry that those who will participate in A's might misuse their proximity with the church to abuse trust, and give a bad name to the good that is being done. I don't have any idea if he met these people professionally. If he did, the church might have an interest to be protected too. Of course, I know no details.

ON the whole I believe we should try to do the same. God has an advantage in that he knows all the variables, while our vision is limited. It is always good to seek him in prayer and have him ratify our decisions. It becomes second nature after time, and one can avoid many mistakes.

I think this is what has harmed my H's feelings for me...the knowledge that I have gone to a solicitor and turned over evidence that is irrefutable proof of his transgressions - material that can really hurt him. I think he thinks that I wanted to hurt him. I didn't. I was afraid of what he would do and I needed to protect myself legally.

I think you did the right thing. Notice that those who do things wrong are often more worried about getting caught, or having their deeds known, than in making things right. You can always tell when someone's heart is right, because they become more worried about setting things right, and making restitution than any other consideration.

I needed him to know that he wouldn't be able to get away with hurting ME. So when I told him that he could sue me for divorce if we slept apart for two years, because I really don't want to do something that will damage his reputation, I think that is why he came home and hugged me. He was relieved to know that I would not do this to him. So I have to keep my word to prove to him that I mean it. Kinda got myself into it, didn't I? Sounds crazy, but I'm trying to be merciful. I also what him to have what he really wants, and if he wants a divorce he can have one.

Someone who makes a mistake one time, and then repents of it the rest of their life probably deserves a little protection. Someone who keeps repeating the same mistake and shows no remorse .......... well, I worry. There is nothing to keep him from getting more and more bold, and I hope no innocent young girl gets hurt.

I do understand your feelings - and again, I don't know all of the facts. One other thing to consider is that when people are exposed to the consequences of their actions, it often encourages them to change for the better.

I have enjoyed reading the accounts of your boys and their school experiences. We have four sons, and four daughters. I have spend most of my adult life working in the "Boy Scout's of America." I was blessed to be able to spend time with my own sons as part of the experience. Helping boys has been very rewarding for me, and I often am visited by some of those who were in my scout troop more than 20 years ago. I am still associated with the Boy Scouts, and in fact we have three day trip next week. In the early days, I wasn't very good at helping them. It is much easier to see now which boys need extra attention, and it is also easier to know what they need. The most difficult thing is finding the time to give personal attention, and at the same time keeping the program going for all the other boys. Growing up can be so difficult, It is good that you watch out for them.

Were the closing ceremonies for your YS rewarding, and entertaining? Is he happy to be moving on, or does he wish he could stay another year?

Our twins wanted to stay, but it's hard to stall growing up. They are happy now, and doing well in what you and I may have called "Jr High."

So you see, last year, my older son had to go through his particular selection process, and this year, it was my younger son's turn. Both of them have succeeded in their goals and gained places in good schools.

Would they have achieved this if I had been embroiled in a plan B these last 2 years? I don't think so. I admit that my marriage is a mess, but I don't think I could have done any better.

I admire your courage, and your care and concern for your boys. I am wondering if you still wonder if plan B may have made a difference for your marriage?

My belief is that we should always think about things, pray about them, and come to a decision based on all the facts we have available to us. Then, take the decision to God in prayer and see what he thinks. Most of the time, he ratifies it, but sometimes he knows things we do not know, an he inspires us in another direction. Many people go through this process without really realizing it. I would guess you are getting help. Your story about forgiveness washing over you like water is a good example of the way he helps us.

I hope you don't mind me touching on all these things. I hope it feels helpful.

On a different note, I have talked to someone else, someone I know who is a psychiatrist. I started talking to her about seeking counseling for myself ...............................I think talking to her helped me feel more ready to start IC - I realized that I need someone to talk to...I AM very lonely, even though I have some very good friends. I just have this feeling that it is not enough. And I'm scared that I can't relate on an intimate level anymore. I'm too scared of being vulnerable, and have become used to being out on my own, so to speak. I think I have to deal with that before it goes any further.

When I read this, I felt like asking you a lot more questions. Maybe I should, or maybe I should let you rest.

You share a lot here, but you hold some back. I suppose this is good, the internet being what it is. I remember when I first started posting to you........... you asked me why I wanted to write to you. It made me laugh, though I didn't tell you. We do need to be careful, and there are many of dangers in the world. I think many of us long for a better world where those dangers don't exist.

I had a lady tell me a few years ago that she felt like she could talk to me........ "Because you are safe." (This is local, not online.) She didn't feel I was a danger to her. I hope that is true, I believe it is.

As far as loneliness -
The bible says "It is not good that the man should be alone." Probably that applies to both sexes. I think you feel that. Do you think so?

There are many ways to cope with these difficult parts of life. One of the best ways is to spend time helping others. You know that helping your boys is rewarding. Jesus said in Matthew, chapter 10: 39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it."

I would bet you are involved in helping others? It is one of the very best ways to find ourselves.

Now -

You had asked how I learned to get some of the stress out of my life. This will almost sound like the opposite of what I just said, but it all fits together.

Take some time every day for yourself.

I used to be very task oriented. Set a goal for how much you will do in a day, and get it all done. Some days it took until late at night, but it got done. I would work from early morning on Saturday until late at night trying to get the yard looking better. After the doctor had his talk with me, I took a good look at what I was doing.

Now, I quit at 5 PM on Saturday.

I shower, and have an early dinner. IN the evening, I read, spend time with the kids, and prepare for the things I will do on Sunday. In short, I relax. If the work is not done, that's too bad. I have noticed it will still be there the next weekend waiting, it doesn't run off and get lost. W and I do dates most Friday evenings. We sometimes sleep in on Saturday and there is a lot of pillow talk.

When quitting time comes at work, I go home. We eat dinner as a family, we talk, and we laugh. We gather at bed time, and we read the bible together, and discuss it. We have family prayer every night, and most mornings. The world goes on and on, but we slowed things down a little bit inside our home.

Now, we have normal problems, and it doesn't always work out, but it's a lot better than it was. It requires a lot of faith in God. I used to try and make every thing work, now I do what is prudent, and trust the rest to God.

- LOL, I was sure I could get to the CD player today, and I haven't even touched on repentance, and forgiveness. LIR, I hope these discussions are useful to you.

SS

Believe me, ss, your comments are very helpful...I am up early before anyone else, checking here, doing my Scripture readings, getting some studying (reading) in for my degree course before anyone else wakes up......

I'll go back and reply, but just in general, yes, I needed advice on how to get my head around prayer, and the "ratification" process you are talking about....I need to pray....this is the whole process which needs to become part of my life....I think my confusion and hanging on to the R with H is because I am not sure what God wants for me and H - I don't make a decision to leave H because I'm not sure that's the action God really wants me to take right now....and I am aware that it is not just me and H - it is the boys -

I hold the belief that ultimately, after God, I am accountable to my children for everything I do in my life....I don't want to do something in secret that I would be ashamed for my children to find out....I know from my own experience how devastating it is for children to find out the secrets that their parents have kept thinking it wasn't any of their children's business...everything you do in your life has an impact on your children, and your children grow up to be adults...when they are adults, they will want to know "why"...you WILL have to answer...you can choose not to and leave them in the dark, that doesn't mean they won't find out....I also feel that I have a responsibility to my kids....if I have done something wrong, or something that has hurt them, I have a responsibility to be here so they can throw mud at me someday....in other words, I will be here to answer for the decisions I have taken...if I decide that divorce is what is best for all of us, I don't expect them to be happy about it...they will have a lot to say about it someday....I will have to answer to them for what I decide to do....

Just to let you know that I have set up the computer in question with the accounts that now have parental controls on them - OS was not happy about it, but he accepted it and said I didn't have to tell him why...he knew....he is unhappy about not being able to surf the net freely, but I told him he can do that on my laptop when he is downstairs in the family room....any websites he wants to put on his area on the upstairs computer, I am happy to do for him....

I have also made an appt to talk to one of our parish priests on Monday at 10AM....I need to expose H to our church....especially when he is visiting sites like "www.datingforparents.com" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Will be back later....

Thank you so much for sharing these thoughts with me....

LIR

I had a post all done and lost it, but I'm going to do it again, because I think it's important.

I believe it is very important. I get a lot of information from the things you write. It goes round in my head, and hopefully it comes out from time to time as useful observations.

Here I am again - it's morning and I have a busy day ahead - it was a busy school run morning, with YS going to an induction day at his new school...I bought a family ticket to the event this afternoon/evening for all new families...H is working all day and says he can't go...I think I will go anyway...

I hope you did go. I can't remember you commenting on it though. My mother has diabetes, and she doesn't feel well enough to attend family events sometimes. My father always goes. He is retired, and he shows us how important we are by showing up to every thing. He is as dependable as the atomic clock. I didn't know how important it was, but after watching him, I think I am beginning to understand. People say it's OK when we miss, but they feel the love when we do attend. I was happy that you said you would go anyway.
It occurs to me that if you didn't end up going, you might feel bad about what I have said, but it's supposed to be encouraging - so figure out how to spin it that way no matter what you did. <grin>

On reflection, I have been thinking that the incident with the CD players is an example of "crazy-making" - it sure made me feel like I was going crazy, and I got very emotionally upset. I still can't figure out whether it was a misunderstanding or whether it was a set up on his part to get me into a fight. JL, on another thread, said to me that I am punishing him by refusing to engage with him, and that I didn't have any business complaining as I have exactly the kind of marriage I want. This kind of thing is exactly why I refuse to engage anymore. With the best will in the world, I end up snarled up in something I don't understand and a serious breakdown in communication and good will. But I can't see myself staying with this forever.

I hate to admit it, but I was JUST LIKE HIM for a much of our early married life. I didn't have a clue I was doing it. Some part of me must have known - but until it was pointed out to me, I would not recognize it. It became much easier after we got Harley's "Love busters" book. He explained things so well that if I started it up, my W could easily remind me about what I had read, and what it meant. I still BEGIN it sometimes (old habits are hard to break,) but these days I catch myself. I always tell her when I figure it out, and I apologize. She laughs.

I do not believe he will see it, or change it unless he has a reason to do so. I knew something was lacking in our relationship, and I wanted to fix it, so I started looking for solutions. Your H has said that he knows things are tough, but that it must go on as it is. That is not very hopeful. I don't know what to tell you to do to help him. My W just tuned me out. I knew she was doing it, and that bothered me even more. Your H can feel it too, and I would guess he may try even harder to drive you crazy when that happens. It destroys the trust that should exist between H and W. A big downside, is that when he really does have a valid point, you may have already tuned him out, and might not be listening. Also, you may have valid reasons to tune him out most of the time, and he doesn't get why, so he gets worse. It's a cycle that makes the relationship worse, and worse, not better and better. I don't believe in our case that one of us could have fixed it working alone. When we discussed it, both of us realized what was going on, and we both tried to make it right.

I have seen a lot of people on MB who created many of the problems in their marriage, and would do nothing to fix them until their spouse had an affair. That was their wake up call. One of the reasons they were willing to work on the marriage, is that they KNEW they caused part of the problem.

There is no way you can change what you are doing to make your H happy. His view is warped, and he feels entitled to do whatever he wants because he isn't happy with his life and family as they are. My belief is that you didn't really need a wake up call, that your behavior was in the normal range, that you were not causing problems, and that he drifted off by himself.

Knowing how I was, and knowing that I was always justified in my own mind, I doubt he is any different. He feels you are in the wrong, and that it is his duty to set you right. He sees himself as failing in his role as husband, and father if he does not. I bet he almost never does it in front of other adults, because the arguments he has won't stand scrutiny, and as I said, some part of him knows that, but he walls it off, and ignores it as I did.

It may be a DJ on my part to say these things about him, as I am basing it on what was going on in my head. However, I it seems he is very similar to me, so I am telling you my thoughts on it.

To finish off that incident, later in the day I went into H's workroom (knocked first) and said "I'm sorry about this morning. When I got to the dump I found out there were TWO CD players in the car." I waited. "Oh," was all H said. "I was confused because I thought there was only one CD player in the car and I had thought you wanted that one thrown away. I didn't realize that you were talking about the car stereo. When I was trying to talk to you, I was only trying to clarify what you wanted because I was confused by what you were saying." H didn't reply. So I left it at that.

He didn't say anything about it - and that fits too.

My guess is that he couldn't even remember most of what went on before. See, you care, you want to make things right, you want him to be happy, and love you. I bet he viewed your coming to him as an apology of sorts, and thought it was natural because whatever happened (even if he couldn't remember it) it was your fault, and he was right, and you were wrong. I suspect he didn't comment because he couldn't remember the conversation, and in commenting he may have looked bad, or shown his mistake.

The way he sees it, he corrects you because it's his job to do it. Your are nearly always wrong, and he has to take time out from his busy schedule to help you out. It sounds so terrible while I am typing this. I hate to look at myself, but that's how I was. I didn't see my W as my partner, but I saw her as inferior, and I KNEW it was my job to correct her.

I think we have more of a partnership now, and less of a problem. BTW, he has no right to look at things that way, but many of us did, and do. I am sorry it takes us so long to get it.

Maybe I should have asked him directly whether he knew there were 2 CD players in the car, but I thought he would take that as confrontational and interrogating, and I didn't think he would respond well.

You know him well, and all you say confirms to me what his mind set is. I also believe he would have gotten angry.

Maybe I shouldn't have apologized to him, but I feel it is important to me that I try to make the space for reconciliation and he can respond as he wishes. In this case he didn't apologize for himself, or explain himself or make any further comment on the matter. He accepted what I said and did not offer any further comment or response. For me, it is important to me that I make the effort so that I remain a person who is able to try to communicate.

It is important to make the effort. I hope I don't discourage you from that by what I am saying. My W was distant, and I didn't understand why. She was just protecting herself from pain. I will be forever thankful that she stayed with me. She told me that she had prayed more than once to know if she should leave, but the answer was always that she should stay. Sometimes it brings me to tears to think about it.

Bullies are people who tear others down, because somehow it makes them feel better about themselves.

I wonder what he would do if you made a sign of that, and framed it - then when he goes off on you, you handed it to him.

On another note, these last two weeks, I have been "being there" for my friend who had a breakdown two years ago and has now been diagnosed as bipolar. Thankfully she has stabilized. Last week, my H came home from a funeral and said he had met a couple, the wife suffering from bad Post Natal Depression. He had taken their phone number and he urged me to call the wife, as he said we had a lot in common and he thought it might be helpful for her to talk to me. I said to my H that what I would say to her was that PND was a finite condition but needs careful management, and that I would put her in touch with the PND Association, which was what was most helpful to me. I went ahead and called this lady, who had a long chat with me. I hope I was helpful to her.

On one level, he feels it is his job to correct you. On another, he respects you, and even brags to others about how good you are at some things. This, from personal experience.

But to me this is noteworthy because I think my H MUST feel that I am mentally healthy enough to offer support to this lady, someone I don't even know. He also notes how I support my best friend, who has been quite seriously ill. So how come I am mentally healthy enough, in his eyes, to offer support to these people, but when it comes to relating to HIM, I am nuts?
As you already know, you are not nuts. He has to respect you on some level, after all he married you, and he lives with you. He has to find good about you, or he couldn't stay. He has walled off these two views, and calls them up as needed. There is no conflict in his mind (most of the time.) My W made some of the same comments to me over a period of time. Some of it finally started making sense to me.

I think the fact that I am "talking" again means I am ready for IC. But I don't want my IC to be a litany week after week of the crazy-making incidents...

Sometimes, with my H, I feel like I am dealing with two different people.

He really believes he is right. I keep hoping something will happen that forces him to see himself for what he is.

Oh wad some power the gifte gie us

To see oursels as others see us!

It wad frae monie a blunder free us,

An' foolish notion.

- Robert Burns,


In many way he is so gifted. You would not have wanted to be with him if he had no redeeming qualities. May God stretch forth his hand to bring him back, and may you know how to best help.

Prayer is a very interesting topic indeed. If I ever get caught up on the past topics, maybe I can discuss current ones in real time. (ss smiles)

When we leave this life, there is very little we can take with us. The memories we leave our children, the things we do for others, the friends we make. We may not by known by, or make a difference to most of the people in the world, but in our own circle of influence, we do make a huge difference. YOU make a difference, don't ever think you don't matter.

SS

Well, I was just going to settle down and reply to your long post, but...I can hear the troops getting up downstairs...YS small feet have just stumbled into the bathroom and now he's downstairs alone...so...I'll have to come back later this evening....

Thank you for your reflections...I'll just quickly say that I found all of it helpful....especially the stuff on H feeling superior to me....I think you really hit the nail on the head there...that he feels its part of his role and responsiblity to correct me (he has always called it 'being helpful')....he doesn't see it as controlling, and it is incessant...we used to enjoy doing things together, but once we set up house together, and especially after we had children, him taking charge and telling everyone else, instructing everyone else in how things should be done, down to the minutiae of daily life has become all that he is....at least that aspect of him overwhelms everything else, in my view....I can see what you are saying, ss.....and I need to get LoveBusters ASAP....

Yes, I did go to YS school event....H could not go, and OS was happy to stay home, although I checked on him.....YS had a whale of a time, and I got to spend time with and touch base with a lot of other parents that I know and some I haven't seen for a long time....it was very good...I enjoyed myself, and it was amazing watching YS do the climbing wall and then abseil down as fearless as James Bond.....!

To update briefly, I had an appointment with the priest yesterday....this priest is a visiting priest, much loved in our parish, he comes every year from another country for two months or so....he came to our house for dinner 3 years ago and he is the one I went to when I first found out about OW1 six years ago....I cried a lot trying to tell him what has happened to us and he listened carefully...he said that he knew there was something wrong for the last three years...he said he has seen my H in the post office several times and wanted to say hi, but my H has not even seen him, he looks so unhappy and preoccupied....he said my H came into the church last week (my H's birthday day) while he was saying Mass and said some prayers...he spoke to him afterwards and he invited himself to dinner at our house....he said he could tell that my H is very troubled and also that YS teacher and Headmaster had spoken to him about YS - they are concerned that nothing happen to derail YS progress in school, as he is...special..he has a lot going for him...so that's why when he saw my H, he took the opportunity to say that he wanted to come over and see us....he was glad that I had come to him to tell him about our problems because it helped give him a better picture of what is going on...he said that what he would do is try to get H to come talk to him privately...he would not let H know that I had come to talk to him, but he wants to talk with him alone...he wants to open this conversation with my H before he comes to dinner with us...then he wants to come visit with us in our home....

I felt a little better after talking to him....I know he means well...I also got the feeling that without my knowing it, the parish has had its eye on our family....that they are concerned and are watching us...probably trying to figure out what they can do to help.....so we will see what happens.....

Have to go check on YS now...be back later....

LIR

I hope to post a little more today before I leave work for home. Depends on how much I can get done.

I'll be away at a camp for boys the next three days.
May I live to tell about it. <grin>

SS

Later Edit -
Instead of adding to this, I think I will edit for clarity. If you have already read it, maybe another pass would help. I did it kind of fast, and didn't take time to proof it well.

Yes, I am willing to talk about forgiveness and repentance. That is a big issue for me that I am feeling conflicted about.

I sit here thinking..........

I would guess you are conflicted because you want to forgive him, and you don't feel he deserves it, and you don't know if you CAN forgive him. I kind of think you have forgiven in many ways, but you can't come to terms with loving him, and trusting him.

It may be good to talk about this as two different things.
There is the ability to Forgive, and there is the ability to have romantic love for someone.

(later edit - the dictionary I copied this from uses symbols that don't import well.)
for·give (f…r-g¹v“, fôr-) v. for·gave (-g³v“), for·giv·en (-g¹v“…n), for·giv·ing, for·gives. --tr. 1. To excuse for a fault or an offense; pardon. 2. To renounce anger or resentment against. 3. To absolve from payment of (a debt, for example). --intr. To accord forgiveness. [Middle English forgiven, from Old English forgiefan. See ghabh- below.] --for·giv“a·ble adj. --for·giv“a·bly adv. --for·giv“er n.

If you absolve someone from a debt, it doesn't mean you loan them more money. If you pardon an offense, it doesn't mean you put yourself in a position to be offended in the same manner, by the same person all over again.

Forgiveness is for us, not for the relief of the person who has committed an offense, though if they are repentant it does give them some measure of relief. It they are not repentant, they (usually) could care less if they are forgiven or not. Often they object to forgiveness, because they don't believe they committed a wrong in the first place.

From Matthew Chapter 6-
14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Forgiveness is for you - it cleanses your soul, and it makes it possible for you to be right with God. Without if, you are in bondage to feelings that won't let you keep this commandment:
Matt: 5: 48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

which BTW comes just after this in Matt 5
38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.
41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46 For if ye alove them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?

I have quoted the whole thing, though I am very afraid you will think I am telling you to repent. (I am not.) Perhaps you have some changing yet to do, but I think you have completed most of your journey. Lets Explore why I say this.

You have shown you wish him no harm. Things you could have used against him, you have remained silent on, or kept hidden. We discussed protection of the church, and others - these are things that always need to be taken into account, and acted upon if others need protection. It looks like you have already turned the other cheek. I am not privy to private conversations the two of you have, and you could be giving him he11 and not telling us about it, but I doubt it.

Now, there is forgiveness, and then there is Love.
If I read the scriptures right, there is love, and there is LOVE too.

We are commanded to love our enemies. It is clear Jesus loved all men, and wanted to bring all men to salvation. It is also clear that straight is the gate, and narrow the way, and few there be that find it. (Paraphrasing)
He loves us, but he will only let those in who qualify. I think we have to be the same as far as romantic love, and trust. Marriage is a sacred bond. You know it is not the same now (for you) as it once was. I may go out on a limb with part of this now. I believe you know that there could be a lot more to it than what you were getting even before his EA's and PA. It's a sacred partnership, and the sacred part no longer exists, nor does the partnership part in many ways. I feel as though you are trying to hang on tight to something that is barely there. That's difficult to do.

Speaking of Love, and LOVE -
From John Chapter 19-
26 When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!

You can't love someone who you can't trust. I won't take time to look up the quotes, but I got this concept from MB over the years.
We know Jesus loves Peter, and the other of the 12, but it makes a special note about his love for John. Some kind of a greater bond existed.

We are asked to love even our enemies. It doesn't tell us to trust them though. We are instructed to turn the other cheek, a reference to avoid living an "eye for an eye." We are not instructed to go out of our way to let our selves be subjected to evil, and it's influence. IN fact, we are warned to stay away from it.

So what does that mean for you and your relationship to your H? I think your difficulty lies in trying to reconcile forgiveness of your husband, and getting back to a loving, trusting relationship. I don't think you can have the latter until he repents, though you can still forgive him, and not desire evil to come upon him.
I suppose I am saying that you may have come as far as you can come, and it may require something from him for more progress to be made.

Jesus must have trusted John to have given his mother into his care. I believe there was a lot more there than the love we are supposed to have for our enemies. This is the type or example of the love that should exist in a marriage, and it can't exist while one of the partnership is untrustworthy.

I see my time is up. I'll see you again upon my return. May God be in your heart, so that you can understand what is needed, and how to best accomplish it.

(Later edit)
I don't have time to discuss prayer in depth. I do want to say that you can get answers to prayer.

For me, it comes most often as a feeling, or whisper to my soul, or my spirit.

He expects us to gather information, and make informed decisions.
I make decisions, and I ask HIM if I should go ahead. If he wishes me to proceed, the loving, positive, warm feeling comes. If I need to think on it more, I get a bump of warmth, but also a feeling of doubt. If I am totally wrong, I get lots of doubt, and the conduit to heaven feels clogged, and I am left to wonder.

Sometimes there is no way for me, with limited information to know what to do. IN these cases, I find he will put thoughts and ideas into my head, and give me further direction on how to proceed. This feels like pure knowledge coming as a new thought, or idea.

I want you to know that he is there. I promise you that he is. I know he loves you, and wants you to have help. If he delays his answers to you, it is because that is what is best. He never makes mistakes. His timetable, is not always our timetable. Sometimes he doesn't do it our way, or give us what we want, because he gives us what is best, or most needed.

You should have these same positive, warm feelings as you read this - if it is true, because the Holy Ghost is charged with bearing witness of the truth, and God wants you to have all the help you can get. He will not do anything for me that he will not do for you. If these feelings come strong enough (as on the day of pentecost) they are described as a flaming fire, or a rushing wind. It is easy to understand once you have felt it, but hard to describe with words.

I testify that God is real, and that he will help you as long as you continue to call upon him, and live worthy of his blessings.

SS

Please know that your last sentence is ringing in my ears....I heard the power of your conviction in those words..."I testify..."....thank you for their sustaining grace...

I am finding myself very short on time and I can't write back to you just yet in depth on the things you have taken up but I want you to know that it has all made sense and helped me to start sorting out the forgiveness/repentance quandary I am struggling with.....

Just to say that today I am called into the hospital to have a scan on my veins (which I have been waiting for for months), then keeping a lunch date which H accepted from one of his work associates, then I have one of my oldest friends (known her since junior high, since I was 12, arriving this evening with her 15-yr old daughter to stay the weekend, visiting my town - staying in a B&B, but I will be busy with her until Monday eve.)--I am SOO looking forward to spending time with her....

Then, yesterday H decided he WOULD like to take that holiday in France for a week, which he stresses is NOT supposed to be stressful....so we are leaving on Wed the 8th, and coming back on the following Wed....when we arrive back, my other friend will be here in my town with her H who is on a work course...she will be here until the 19th and wanted to spend time with me....I also really want to spend time with her while her H is busy working....hoping we can spend it working on my vegetable patch...she has volunteered....I have helped her and her H recover their marriage using MB principles...he had 2 affairs several years ago during a mid-life crisis and when she found out, she turned to me...I helped her through that time, and her H acknowledges my part in saving their marriage...they have turned their marriage around and are well into recovery and enjoying their new life together....her H is one of my H's oldest friends (has known him since childhood)....my H knows about her H (and at the time told him he had to 'return to God'!), and my H knows her H knows about us...I think he will be very uncomfortable and is trying to avoid seeing them because of his shame....I am insisting we come back on Wed so I can see her...I leave H up to God....anyway, that will be the weekend of the 16th...19th, to see my friend.....

Then...we have planned a trip to see H's dad and brother between 21st and 27th Aug....so I am starting to feel stressed....I would like to have a holiday, but being with H on holiday could be very stressful....also, I have a lot to do....I have to finish writing 2 sets of concert notes (for which I am paid) that are due end of next week....means I have to get one set done today (before and after scan and lunch) and arrival of friend this eve...arrgh! Will have to work late at night...which is exhausting....

If I don't get second set of notes finished by Wed, I can take all my books and my laptop and finish them while we are on holiday....yes, I know, taking work with me while I am on holiday...

And then there is my MA course that I'm supposed to be studying for....thank God I took a temporary withdrawal from study....but I really WANTED to be able to get a substantial amount of work on my course done before I go back to work on 5th Sept....

YS starts school on 5th Sept...have lost track of when OS starts back....so I still have some shopping to do for them...school clothes and shoes, all of which have to be labelled....will have to do that when we get back from visiting FIL and BIL....

Intend to fill in FIL while I am there....

And then there was calling the counselling service....

And then there was the priest in our church wanting to see H, and to come visit with us....

I am starting to see these pockets of days appear in the month of August, when we will be home....don't know how I am going to get so many things done....

Also....have started to pray and decided to keep a "prayer diary"...because I "forget" the insights I have received in prayer...I think keeping a prayer diary will help me to concentrate....

Today....the peace came with the thought that what I need to do is restore my own faith instead of depending on my H's....that came from the thought that I had married H as a way of trying to avoid the pain of infidelity - the pain I had suffered as a child as a result of my father's infidelity - I was attracted to a man I thought had an integrity my father lacked....I admired my H for what appeared to be his strong faith...which I thought would mean he was committed to fidelity....as it turns out, my H has a lot of problems which prevent him living up to what he himself holds up as an ideal....my father, incidentally, never believed my H was "marriage-material"...takes one to know one....anyway...I sound like I am rambling here...but there is a logic here.....having been powerfully attracted to my H, and married him as a way of trying to escape pain, and relying on my H's faith for a long time...I find myself "cast out", as it were....of that fantasy...and struggling to recover my own faith....

Actually, I never lost my own faith...I felt my faith challenged by my H and by his older woman friend...

In prayer this morning....I was reminded that He came to me long before I met H, and that I said yes to Him long before I met H...that I said yes to H because I said yes to marriage with a full heart, and I have tried to continue to say yes to what marriage should be....that I have a right to say no to what my H wants which I feel is immoral....in fact, that I SHOULD stand firm against what I feel is immoral....saying yes to God means saying no to the Devil, in other words....

So I feel better....

At some point I will get back and go over your detailed examination of forgiveness/repentance....

It has helped me see that I have actually "turned the other cheek" - many times...by choosing not to retaliate or take steps that would harm him....

It helps that you explained just how forgiveness is for you....because I have felt this battle going on inside me....the death of the love I had for him and what that could be replaced with....bitterness, vengefulness, anger which eats you alive....forgiveness inhabits the place where these feelings could take root and live forever in your heart, taking over your soul....I still have to admit that I harbour a desire to see H punished....maybe that's part of what Harley talks about....the BS needing to see that the WS makes amends for what he/she has done....to be really honest, I want my H to suffer for what he has put me through and for what he has inflicted on our children.....I want him to suffer through the refiner's fire...because at the bottom of it all, I don't want my H to go to ******....I don't want him to be cast "into the pit" at Judgement Day.....I don't DO anything to punish him myself....and I try to keep my eyes on myself with regard to Judgement Day, knowing I will account only for myself on that day.....but I still pray for H for this reason.....

If I am really honest, I can't say that I want H to suffer *only* for his own good....maybe I just want to see him suffer....I want him to know what it feels like.....

So the question is...can you say you have truly forgiven someone if these feelings are still present in your heart from time to time....

I had that experience of forgiveness as if a flood of clean fresh water had washed through my heart, removing all traces of anger and resentment against H.....which I communicated to H afterwards....maybe that was to show me what forgiveness really felt like...also, that was a "letting-go"...I let go of what H had done to me as "mattering" forever...I could go on with my life, having had that feeling.....

So....are the two things incompatible?

Gotta go...thank you so much...-)

LIR

Just to say that today I am called into the hospital to have a scan on my veins...

Please let me know what the scan shows. I would really like to hear that your boy's mother will be around to care for them for many, many more years.

Was the weekend with your friend as good as you hoped it would be?
(Praying that it was.......)


So the question is...can you say you have truly forgiven someone if these feelings are still present in your heart from time to time....

It is natural for us to continue to have conflicting feelings about forgiveness. It works the same as other things that Satan tempts us with. If you have quit smoking, he tempts you to start again. If you have forgiven, he whispers to you that you have not, and that you cannot.

Realize that your mind and heart may not be the source of some of these, or most of these thoughts. I believe that you are better than you think you are. Please understand I'm not trying to flatter you. I want you to see yourself as others see you.

It if often difficult to give ourselves credit where it is due when we are still in the middle of such difficult situations. For some reason we often feel we deserve the bad that happens to us. You know enough of the life of Jesus Christ to know that is not always the truth. Sometimes bad things happen to good people.

My feeling is that while there are some times when God will change our heart overnight, there are also times when perfection (In forgiveness, or any good trait) is a process. Please give yourself credit for how far you have come.

You have a very busy month ahead of you. It may be best if you don't spend as much time here - though you will be missed. Only come by when it helps you reduce stress, and adds to your quality of life. I'll be around if you want to talk.

My W is sitting here next to me, and I asked her if she wanted to say "HI." She says "HI."

There is time for some more - I'll go on for a bit.

Actually, I never lost my own faith...I felt my faith challenged by my H and by his older woman friend...

I tend to ask soooooo many questions. One of the first things I wanted to ask when you came back was what happened to her. Probably it was good I kept quiet. I don't see any good there. If I were you (so easy to say, so hard to know for sure) I think this is one of those cases where you can forgive, but still stay as far away from her as you can. It is difficult when he chooses otherwise.

I have been exploring your comments about (faith in God) when I pray. I do not claim to be a spiritual adviser to you - but I want to avoid doing harm when I post, and I would really like to help build up your faith, and encourage you on your path to knowing more of God. The feeling I get is that because of the things that have happened, you are struggling with some things that you used to accept, and believe. You don't need to comment on this, but I wanted you to know that others care, and are praying for you - that you may find the answers you seek.


In prayer this morning....I was reminded that He came to me long before I met H, and that I said yes to Him long before I met H

YES !!!
And he is able to claim you even if he cannot claim H - though it is hoped H will accept his help also.

...that I said yes to H because I said yes to marriage with a full heart, and I have tried to continue to say yes to what marriage should be....that I have a right to say no to what my H wants which I feel is immoral....in fact, that I SHOULD stand firm against what I feel is immoral....saying yes to God means saying no to the Devil, in other words....

As I said, you are better than you sometimes feel you are. There is no better proof than the things you are feeling, as recorded above. When doubts come, call upon God in Prayer to help you, and continue on. Don't let fear and doubt drag you down.

Do take time to tell me how your vegetable patch is coming along. Gardens are such a reflection of real life. We plant, and things start to sprout. The weeds get in, we have to dig them out. There is so much to do, and so little time to do it. If we pay attention to one spot, it does better, but then over on the other side, it may be struggling. We vow to spend more time there next week - it goes on, and on.

So the question is...can you say you have truly forgiven someone if these feelings are still present in your heart from time to time....

I had that experience of forgiveness as if a flood of clean fresh water had washed through my heart, removing all traces of anger and resentment against H.....which I communicated to H afterwards....maybe that was to show me what forgiveness really felt like...also, that was a "letting-go"...I let go of what H had done to me as "mattering" forever...I could go on with my life, having had that feeling.....

So....are the two things incompatible?

Can you ever say that your garden is weed free FOREVER?

We live in the world, and struggle to be "not of the world."

Remember that this world is TEMPORARY. This is like going to the university to prepare for real life. Does it sometimes feel like you are always in finals week?<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Smile - learn to relax. I hope you get that holiday, and that it is good for your health, and well being.

SS

Thanks so much for your last post. I got a distinct feeling of calm as I read your words about my faith, about forgiveness...these are the things I need to talk about most and I appreciate you taking the time to help clarify these things....

As you read from my last post, I am really scrambling for time here which is why I haven't gone into detail...but God works in mysterious ways....we were supposed to go to France today, but after H booked the ferry ticket, H discovered that the boys' passports went out of date 2 weeks ago...since he keeps them in his locked chest of drawers and has taken to hiding the key, there is no way I could have helped him with that...he has to take responsibility.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Well, he was angry to start with, but we have all talked it over and none of us are too upset...the ferry will defer the ticket to another time, so we don't lose our money, and we have decided to stay here and go on days out to do "fun stuff" here....it has all worked out for the best....I have got one set of notes done and hope to get the second set done tomorrow....I have also been helping my sister with a family crisis back home in California....she has ordered the book LoveBusters and so have I...I got my copy 2 days ago, and also got Surviving an Affair yesterday....it's only taken me 5 years....as I recall, though, 5 years ago, it was hard to get it on Amazon in the UK, I remember looking then...oh well....

The scan on my veins went well...in that all my veins are clear...no blockages....its just that the veins on my left side are more enlarged than the right side....whether or not this is causing the pain is hard to say, but the pain has kicked up again quite bad and is also creeping around to the right side....it's weird...a dull ache, and also sharp points of pain sometimes....I have to go back to my GP and now wait for a referral to an orthopedic specialist....maybe I have wear and tear on my hip joints, I don't know...from all that ballet when I was younger...that's all I can think of....so that's why my vegetable patch is totally uncultivated this year...sorry! Oh, and I also had a good visit with my friend this weekend...

I am very glad your wife has come to sit with you at times when you reply to my post...I appreciate that replying to me takes time away from your family and I don't ever want to interfere with what you have to do...also, if your wife has any insight that she feels she would like to share, I would be very glad to hear it...

I came back and reached out for help because I was so depressed, so lonely and needed someone who understood what I had been through to encourage me to seek help here in my own town....I have managed to start that process now, but have further to go....again, I have to set up counselling now with the counselling service....now that I am not going on this trip to France, hopefully I will be able to do that this month...I'd like to have something set up to start in September....I don't want the priest to think he is alone in counselling me emotionally...he might feel unqualified and under too much pressure....I need to discuss theological questions with him, like you have done with me, without him feeling like I am dependent on him for emotional counselling...

So...since I came back here, I have...

Reached out and made arrangements to talk to the priest who is currently in Africa, who will be back at the end of September....

Reached out and talked to the African priest, who is going to try to talk to my H, and come to dinner with us....

Ordered and received the books, LoveBusters and Surviving an Affair....

Got back to work on my degree course.....

Talked to two of my friends who are in the psychiatric services, which has helped me feel more confident about going for IC....

Started trying to pray every day....resolved to start keeping a prayer diary....

And started trying to sort out these confused thoughts and feelings I have about forgiveness/repentance...

So yes, this has been very supportive....I'm just trying to let you see that some concrete steps have happened with your support....

I don't mind you asking questions. It's sometimes difficult for me to reply in depth the way I would like to, but I am also trying not to "ramble" too much...I can get very long-winded! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

About H's older woman friend. We had a falling out - although I didn't tell her that in so many words. I last spoke to her almost two years ago, when I found out about H's last affair. After that, I just resolved not to speak to her again, or to see her. I felt her advice to both of us was not helpful. These are very confused feelings and are a big part of the basis for the annulment of our marriage, if that is what is to be. Basically, 22 years ago, I fell in love with a man who had a long-standing affair, emotional, possibly at one time physical, with a married woman. I did not know about her when I fell in love with him and he was not open and honest with me about the depth of their relationship, either before or after our marriage. I accepted his friendship with her out of love for him, but it was, I believe, misguided. I have proof that H desired and fully intended their deep friendship to continue after his marriage. This is grounds for annulment in the Catholic Church. I don't believe there is any chance that he will ever renounce his friendship with her, although my refusal to engage in any relationship with her for the past two years has put some stress on him. We have always included a trip to her home as part of our yearly visit to his parents. That is the only time he sees her although he talks to her several times a year, maybe once a month. Last year, and again, this year, I have refused to visit her...I have made my own arrangements and chosen to take the train on my own to his family, while he took the boys and visited with her and her family for a day. The same will happen this year. H has respected my wish not to see her and has not challenged me on it. She sent me a cheque for £200 last year, to "help with my degree"...I sent it back to her with a polite note saying my mother had left me enough money for my degree and the gift was too much, I couldn't accept it. This year, she sent me a birthday card with a gift voucher which I haven't acknowledged. I know this seems churlish and it is not like me to not say thank you, but I do not want to be drawn into a relationship with her. I do not want to support and enable her friendship with him any longer. I know it is too late, but I have just decided not to participate any longer in something which is having a bad effect on me. I want to stress that this woman is a good woman, a very kind and loving woman who under normal circumstances, is a good Christian woman...but in the past..they WERE openly in love with each other, and she has actively maintained a close emotional friendship with him...but she is not his mother....maybe it is an Oedipal relationship, maybe its not...but I believe what it did do is destroy his ability to share his life fully with any other woman...I was a part of enabling that to continue...so I feel partly responsible....underneath the friendship and the warm family atmosphere she offered us was sometimes a latent hostility towards me that came out in conversations about our shared Christian faith...she is an evangelical, born-again Anglican and she was always challenging my faith, and implying that I had to be more forgiving, and that my faith was not personal, and that it was weak...there were times when she told me she was ashamed of me, and whatever my H did, she always "shared the blame" by pointing out my faults, too....I feel the particular cast of her religious beliefs, which she has shared with H, have put an impenetrable wall between H and I...this is what I want to discuss with the priest in September....what really did it for me, though was when she held herself up above me....I was devastated when I found out about H's last affair and called to ask her to pray for us...I told her he couldn't expect me to live the rest of my life in this arid desert without love or affection and she said that *SHE* would never dream of leading her children into the desert to die of thirst...SHE would rather die than do that to her children....it suddenly struck me that she, of course, wouldn't lead them into the desert, no, she just fell in love with a younger man, whose love she had kept for the last 20 years...that's how she handled the desert in her own marriage at the time....I thanked her for all her help in praying for us, and I haven't spoken to her since....I had never raised a finger against her, never pointed out her transgressions to her, accepted her friendship in good faith, looked at all her good qualities and respected the sanctity and hospitality of her home....having her set herself above me was too much....I have tried to talk to H about it, but he doesn't say anything....never did, never will, because this is a big reason why our marriage is not a marriage, and why it never worked.....anyway, as ungrateful as I must appear to her....I can live with that....I just don't want to see her or talk to her again...I am tired of accommodating her and although she has been very loving towards me in the past, she has also hurt me a great deal....it is one of those situations where "love" has harmed as much as it has helped....I wish it were different, and it could have been, if she wasn't so determined to be "right", and if she could have openly acknowledged her own sin and not tried to minimize it...then I would have had more respect for her, but she has always tried to sidestep the issue...what I now realize is that she was a WS and still justifies herself in the manner of a WS....Anyway, saying no to a relationship with her seems to be one step I can take towards standing up for myself...

OK, I have lapsed into being long-winded. Usually there is a long story behind this, and/or my feelings are confused. Mainly, though, I'm just sorry I wasted half my life on this. I'm 50 now, and I met him when I was 26. This has taken up literally half my life and spent my youth....I have two beautiful children, whose lives I am trying to salvage....I have had to live almost 20 years thousands of miles from my family and was not able to be with my mother and my brother when they died...all this because of the choices I made...I take responsiblity for making those choices, but also feel I was sucked into the orbit of this woman and my H, who were involved in a long-term EA when I met H...she had a strong incentive to try to make his marriage "work" so she didn't have to feel responsible for "ruining" his life...I think that's why she expended so much effort trying to save our marriage....and H simply learned from her that it was OK to have extra-marital affairs...after all, it worked for her, so why not for him? And why should I object, since I accepted her? So it's all a bit twisted, but there you are.....one of my friends here said to me that in our 20's we try to be very "tolerant", and coming from the land of fruits and nuts (California), and a child of the 60's, I was the perfect candidate to tolerate the unusual....the strict Christian principles and the strict marriage principles as advocated so strongly by old-timers here were foreign to me...they seemed judgmental and rigid and unforgiving....it is only through a life spent trying to accommodate what can't be accommodated that I have found out the old ways are that way for a good reason....all I can say now is that I am older and wiser....but no closer to having a happy marriage....JL would say that's because I won't "walk the walk" and kick him out...maybe so....

Well, its very late here...so I'd better get to bed.....

Hope all is well with you.
LIR

friends4life,

I scanned through these posts with a great sense of sadness. Last week, my kids were watching the second Harry Potter movie, and one of the characters is Dobie, the house-elf. House-elfs ALWAYS have to obey. They are treated very poorly.

I'm struggling to come to a new understanding of marriage vows, but one thing I've learned is that being a house-elf leads to poor treatment. You wouldn't leave no matter what because of your commitment to marriage.

I've often thought that Harley is a good marriage counselor because Joyce put some fear into him. She is no house-elf. If you ever listen to the radio show, focus on how she handles calls and her responses. I remember once Harley on the radio show saying that she dumped him seven times when they were dating. They were talking about being married for 42 years, and I could detect just the hint of fear in him. It's not manipulative on her part or fabricated on his. I think he knows that she won't put up with bad treatment. Period. What I am doing now is removing myself from my husband when it feels unpleasant to me.

One thing you might want to consider is letting your husband know that the boys know he had an affair. It might not seem so justifiable to him if he knows his boys know. I remember once Harley saying exposure was like light on mold.


Cherished

Dear Cherished,

Thank you for your post. It's true...I have also had the same thoughts about the house-elf in Harry Potter....I think the house-elves are JKRowling's metaphor for women who do all the work, are slaves to the home and are badly treated....it is also true that sometimes I have felt like a house-elf. I don't deny it.

But there were many times when I felt my H genuinely appreciated how I took care of my family, our home and our children...I thought that was what he wanted....and as I have gained more independence, he has not grown any closer to me....

I don't really know what goes on in my H's head because it is a state secret. That's the way it is. What I have learned is that he is responsible for his choices...not me. I didn't provoke him into being a WS, and I'm not responsible for him remaining to be secretive and pursuing other women. Like you said in your BS Fog thread, he is wholly and utterly responsible for choosing to have an affair or affairs.

As to the Harleys, I have not had any personal contact with them. It's interesting what you say about their personal relationship. I can understand why you are interested....it is important that they reflect the success of their own program, and it appears that they do....certainly their understanding of the dynamics of attraction, commitment, faithfulness and infidelity is the best I have ever encountered...the only practical approach which really seems to make sense and to work for a lot of people.

What you said about her "leaving him 7 times before they were married". Do you mean that this means she wouldn't have him until he committed to what she wanted from him? Or that she demonstrated to him that she could live without him...that makes her a strong person? I also broke up with my H several times before we got married, and I broke off our first engagement, specifically over his older woman friend. I did the right thing. There is a lot more background I would have to give you, including that while he and I were lovers, I read her letters behind his back....because I guessed that he was not being truthful with me, even though I had asked him directly....I was truthful with him about reading his letters, though....completely honest.....so I had every reason to believe that when my H asked me to marry him a second time, when he said he had resolved everything with this woman, and he knew that I had read his letter, there was every reason for me to believe that it was me he really loved, and that he had accepted and forgiven me for reading his letters. I have my own diaries from that time and it is clear that I was completely open with him about my thoughts on her and the dangers of having her in our life. I also have his letters to me and I can look back when I think he never loved me to see that he wooed me with a passionate heart, even after I had rejected him because of his R with the other woman. Had I known then what I know now, I would have made demands that he would have to fulfill....ending his R once and for all with her, writing a no-contact letter, establishing that there was no place for privacy and secrecy in his life with me, demanding a joint bank account from day 1, committing himself to spending time with me alone....

But from my H's behaviour immediately following our marriage, and in the first year of our marriage, I don't think my H would have been capable of keeping these commitments, even if he had made them to me....he says one thing and then does whatever he feels like....he has a lot of personal problems...issues with resentment that he is projecting on to me...why that is, I don't know....but H is not consistently "bad"....he is consistently "variable"...for example, we are having some very nice days here right now...he has done some good work on our patio, he is spending loads of quality time with the boys, he is busy planning days out and is very cheerful...he is consulting me about this, not being imperious....this is the man I was happy to marry....I don't know why he is in a "good" mode right now....he is a different animal from the "bad" one....he REALLY is like a Jekyll and Hyde....and he was always that way....so I don't think my being a "stronger person" would have affected the outcome of our marriage at all....I know that I have let myself be walked on in a lot of ways....but I have also been very strong, I haven't been a complete doormat and I'm not wholly dependent on him.....I really don't think, at this point, that anything I do would make any difference.....

Like you said....he has free will....his choices are his....and my job has been to get out from under being bullied into thinking I had something to do with it....I certainly am not going to accept being bullied by HER into believing I have something to do with his philandering streak when SHE is a long-term OW who taught him by her own actions that that was an acceptable way to live while being married.....

As to older OW....when is a friend a long-term friend and when is she an OW...once an OW, always an OW, in other words, or is it possible for something which was once a passion to settle into the dust and become just a long-term friendship...when is a friendship and EA and just a friendship....I don't think my H has any sexual longing for this older woman....this is long ago in the past, when they were both much younger....I think he equates unfaithfulness with sexual longing....for him unfaithfulness is sexual, so he doesn't "understand" why I am hurt by his "friendship" with other women....he chooses to see it as unreasonable....

What I think I am trying to say is that I don't believe my H is oriented towards being a husband....if you find all the "requirements" of life-long marriage onerous, and always have...that is, honesty, openness, putting the other's well-being at top of your list, spending time with your spouse (because you love yer), sharing yourself, trusting....if all these things feel like a burden to you, then are you really even capable of marriage? Maybe some people are not...maybe my H is one of those people....and he can't accept that...he has to lay the blame on others for "requiring too much of him".....

Just some more thoughts.....

As you can see, Cherished, I can spend a lot of time hypothesising about the inside of my H's head.....and telling over the bones of the past.....

My main job is to stay inside my own head and try to put my energies towards building my own capacity for independence.....not to forget that I have a future and that my children have a future....that was my intention in coming back here to this forum, not to try to get sympathy from anyone, because I know that staying with someone like my H is not going to meet with the approval of many people on this forum....I also felt that here I might be able to talk about some faith issues I have been muddling over...to get some clearer understanding of certain issues of faith....

So I can relate to your faith issues that have to do with sacrifice...as I am also Catholic, and my spiritual life is oriented in that direction....

I'm not sure "fear" is the right word to describe Harley's feelings towards Joyce...perhaps "awe" is better....that would be good....what do you think? I don't think fear has any place in a good marriage....and they have a good marriage....

LIR

I think there is a hint of fear in Harley's feelings towards Joyce. From what I gather from the radio show, she dumped him when he violated the POJA. It's not that she made demands. It's that she didn't put up with anything. I can only think of one description of a violation of the POJA. They were both teenagers when they were dating, and they were on a ferris wheel. I think the way it went was she was a bit afraid of heights and he decided to rock the bucket. I think Harley's point is that you don't put up with violations of the POJA. That's why there is Plan B.

My sister in law is in a state of emotional divorce. She makes choices which are good for her. I'm trying to make choices which are good for him but which also work for me.

There's a book called "Love and Hatred: The Stormy Marriage of Leo and Sonya Tolstoy" which you might want to read. Tolstoy violated the POJA in breathtaking ways, and Sonya eventually became hysterical. Tolstoy fathered a boy by a peasant woman before his marriage, and Sonya knew about it. One day, he saw her in their house cleaning the floors with the boy beside her. She became jealous.

Tolstoy got so used to violating the POJA that he could not endure her objections to anything, and he left her and just took off from the house when he was 82 years old. He ended up dying of pneumonia in a trainstation. It's a fascinating story of what can happen to a marriage when the woman sets out to "endure all".

Cherished

Well I've heard about the Tolstoy marriage, but I haven't read anything specifically on them....I don't know if she could have left him, but in those days, women didn't have a lot of choice....enduring all was more or less a way of life and the only option for most women up until the 20th century, and it remains a way of life for hundreds of millions of women all over the world today.....

LIR