This is how the Dr. Harley puts it -

"My advice is to write a final letter in a way that the victimized spouse would agree to send it. It should begin with a statement of how selfish it was to cause those they loved so much pain, and while marital reconciliation cannot completely repay the offense, it's the right thing to do. A statement should be made about how much the unfaithful spouse cares about his spouse and family, and for their protection, has decided to completely end the relationship with the lover. He or she has promised never to see or communicate with the lover again in life, and asks the lover to respect that promise. Nothing should be said about how much the lover will be missed. After the letter is written, the victimized spouse should read and approve it before it is sent."

It's been my experience while reading here that the WS is more likely to refuse to send a NC letter, than to agree to send one knowing that they will continue to have contact. I'm sure there are exceptions, and am wondering about others' experiences.

I saw a NC letter posted here today that began with "Congratulations on your award", and was immediatlely followed up with another email. Maybe we need to discuss NC letters.


________________________________________

I think I agree with you.
In my case, my H never agreed to write such a letter. He came back home as a "sacrifies" to his own "happiness" and although he promised NC and was very good at keeping it (only one attempted (but failed) contact after 6 months NC), I see his refusal to write an NC letter as protective to OW. He told me that it was cruiel to do such a thing to anybody.
Well, our recovery is bumpy to say the least. This March WH tried to call after 6 months NC. OW wouldn't respond. Didn't respond to his call. Didn't respond to his email. Those calls and emails are only plantonic, like how are you doing, etc. But OW refused to respond. Only after this incident, WH seemed to wake up more and started to really see where his future lies. During all those times when he was foggy, thinking he was sacrifying himself to stay with me and the kids, he was putting some effort, but he was emotionally still distant and couldn't really meet my needs much. After his last attempted contact failed, he started to show his H side and I'm seeing my husband more and more.
When I asked about NC letter again, he said he would think about it, but he felt that since she was mainaing NC herself, it might have negative effects if she got a letter from him at this time. It's already a year from Dday and they haven't seen each other for 10 months and haven't talked in any way for 8 months. At this late in the game, I do see an NC letter from H as not very useful. But his resistance still made me feel very unsafe.
I would say, yes, if they are unwilling to write an NC letter, recovery is going to be harder, not impossible, but much harder.

LA


LA

Yep, that was my WH who sent that email. He is still learning about the whole MB process. I showed him all the posts from the responses I got and he is understanding more and more. I agree about the acknowledgment of the award being inappropriate to say and would have asked him to keep that out had I known he was planning to send it when he did. It completely made no sense for him to have that in there, but we are learning and have not ever had to go through something like this. I know he was planning to send it, but she had called him twice already yesterday morning which was the first contact that had been attempted in a few months and I think he felt (because of a mandatory meeting tomorrow that they are both required to attend) like he had to do something immediately. I let him know three months ago after finding MB that he needed to do a NC letter, but his decision was otherwise. He clearly had no idea what to say but I am proud that he sent it anyway.

It's tough because we are searching tirelessly for another job for him and although through the other posts in that thread that we realize that we are not following MB principles to a "t" because he has not taken drastic measures- as I said in those posts, we have agreed to where we are now and are working extremely hard on our marriage. As well as that I have agreed no longer to seek advice until we are ready to follow MB to a "T". We realize that nothing will get 100% until he or she leaves the job, but we are confident in where we are headed at this point.

Please, I would love for others' input on how NC letters should be worded. He can't just quit at this point and work at Walmart...if Dr. Harley is convinced that living on the street is better than what we are doing right now, then that's his opinion. I have no desire to raise my children on the street. We realize the importance of our marriage and the principles of MB. We are in counseling with tons of support.

Do I believe OW is gone? Not in the least, but we also realize that we won't be 100% until the job changes.

I apologize for going OT a bit. But I wanted to let you know that I will certainly be looking for further input on this thread...Thanks.

Well, jlashley, we'll give him credit for sending a nc letter. There are many who refuse. I HAVE seen marriages recover without the NC letter, but for me it is a litmus test of how serious the WS is about working on the relationship.

My WH absolutely refused to send one, saying it was pointless. He was right about that, as it turned out, they never stopped having contact.

jashley, please understand that there are not DEGREES of recovery when one is still in contact with his OW. You are either in recovery or you aren't. Rather, there is NO RECOVERY. Recovery is IMPOSSIBLE as long as they are still in contact.

This would be like an alcoholic simply changing the name of his drinks to "business drinks." He will never sober up. He will never recover. Just cutting back a little and calling his drinks a new name does not mean he is "50% recovered;" he is not even IN recovery. He has continued drinking and when the inevitable weak moment collides with opportunity - and it will! - he will be to binge drinking. In order to recover he has to leave the BAR and adhere to complete abstinence.

It has nothing to do with following MB principles to a "T" it only means your marriage is not in recovery. You don't have to follow ANY MB principles at all, that is not the issue. The issue is very simply that there will be no recovery until contact ends.

jlashley,

ML is right....you're not yet in recovery. However, you are taking steps in the right direction. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> The danger is that if you accept less than absolute no contact....that it slowly falls off the table and "looking for a new job" gets put on the back burner. It's amazingly easy to fall into old patterns, once the conflict of D-day calms down a bit. Don't let that happen. Changing jobs has to be a non-negotiable item....even if it means tighting the budget or making some sacrifices....it's better than sacrificing your marriage....and it's way cheaper than divorce.

Keep heading in the right direction! Don't settle. Good Luck.

I didn't have a chance to post to you earlier today but was thinking EXACTLY as Mel...

I hurt so much for you 'cause you're not IN RECOVERY....

First, there's WITHDRAWAL and that is not over until 3 to 6 months of ABSOLUTELY NC with the OW...any contact whatsoever starts WITHDRAWAL all over again....you've probably not even SEEN SIGNS OF WITHDRAWAL YET..cause he is relieved from this NOW...

I'm not all that PROUD about him sending a NC LETTER...

I firmly believe in NC LETTERS..they are the WS' TESTIMONY of the need to end the affair...

But along with the NC LETTER there's a need for ABSOLUTE, NO EXCUSES CONVICTION and COMMITMENT to NC with the OP FOR LIFE...

My H actually sent TWO LETTERS..that I READ..that I know of...but still went back to her TWO TIMES....before our REAL RECOVERY....

So what you have is a TIME BOMB..as MEL is indicating...the A has a high likelihood of starting again at any moment..and it can even be an even STRONGER YEARNING that he is developing for HER..sad for me to say to you...but I lived it...

You best believe that she is after him big time and will use whatever tactic that she can think of to lure him back in...

HE HAS TO TAKE DRASTIC MEASURES..to end the A..there's no way to get around that...just like he took DRASTIC MEASURES to have an A...

In order to SAVE YOUR MARRIAGE, for your own SELF RESPECT, I think that you should not be accepting of this situation...

I don't understand how you can live with your H in CONTACT with someone who tried to DESTROY YOU and YOUR FAMILY....



You know that Dr. Harley doesnt' want this..he wants your family to be together..that is the purpose of his approach..

Why don't you give the MB Counseling Center a call and see what they have to say?

Addressing your initial point Believer - My wife never sent a NC letter. We had not found MB at that time. OM did contact her a few times in the week after she came home.

By 6 weeks or so when I found MB, NC was well established and sending a NC letter didn't seem to make much sense. I doubt she would have done one even then. She would have seen it as punitive. She was obsessed for a long time with apologising to OM - something I would not permit.

If I had found MB on d-day, I would have insisted on a NC letter but 6 weeks later it didn't seem necessary.

I have not regretted that.

jashley, we are not telling you this because we are purists or hardasses, but because we know - FROM EXPERIENCE - that what you are doing won't work. There are 4,5,10 yr affairs on this board who are living examples of what happened when contact was continued. Unfortunately, this is a corner that cannot be cut.

Where will you be working when your H divorces you because of a long term affair? Putting the job above the marriage is a huge mistake, jashley, and we are not exaggerating.


This is one of the reasons WHY he is "adamant" about no contact. He doesn't want you and your children living on the street. He wants you to STAY MARRIED.

Big K - After NC is established, I see no need for a letter either, especially since you didn't find MB.

Mimi - So your hubby DID write a NC letter and then continued seeing the OW? That destroys my theory, because it has been my experience that they will usually refuse to send one if they are not serious.

Generally speaking, if they refuse to send the letter, that indicates they aren't really sincere. That doesn't guarantee there won't be relapses, though. It is just a generalization, not a hard and fast RULE that is blown by an exception.

Sorry that I wasn't clearer.

He was SINCERE/SERIOUS..BOTH..times...

But as Mel says, he RELAPSED..cause she came after him...broke through and of course he was vulnerable...

What's ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY is the LETTER along with EXTRAORDINARY PRECAUTIONS...

BOTH..not one without the other...

Oh, I see. I'm just mulling this around in my brain. It seems like it would be easier for them to fool the BS by just writing the letter. But for some reason, they usually refuse if they are not serious.

Often they don't want to "hurt" the OW (yea, what about the BS). Or like my WS, they say it is pointless.

Okay, well now I am depressed again. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> I know you guys mean the absolute best and I get what you are saying. I suppose I am in my own denial?? I don't know. Does that what it sounds like? I am sad that you are sad for me. WH and I talked last night and he (because of finding out that he is not the first) now feels like he has been played. I told him to join the club! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

I will print these out for him and see what he has to say about them. Believe me, I would gladly call Dr. Harley if I even had half the amount it costs or the resources to get it. That is why we are getting ready to begin meeting with a couple from our church who have been through something similar.

Any advice as to what I may be going through in order to convince myself that this is okay would be great...is it denial?

Thanks in advance...

I think its a desire to take the easy way out, which most of us want to do. Unfortunately, you will find that this is not the easy way out, but the path to DIVORCE.

I would strongly recommend that you call up her H and tell him about the 2 affairs, jashley, so the man can protect himself. If the last BS had done that you might not be in this horrid position today. He has a right and a NEED to know just like you did.

Okay, either I worded that wrong or am completely missing what you are trying to say. Let me try to rephrase it so I can figure out which one it is... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

What I meant to ask is from what you guys are reading when I post, what does it seem like I am doing to convince myself that this is okay? Am I in denial that this is okay or is it something else? Or, did I completely misunderstand what you said ML? ARGH! I am so confused...

j, you already know you are trying to convince yourself this is ok. You know the answer to that better than us.

If you knew what WE KNOW you would not do that. There is a very good reason why Dr. Harley, who has been doing this for 30 years is ADAMANT that all contact ends.

Okay, well I guess I am not really doing that intentionally...or I don't think that I am. I guess I am feeling that way because WH has been meeting the EN's that weren't being met before and because we seem to be on the same page. I now can understand that until we are on the same page with everything, this can not ever go away. I have emailed him to get the email of the co-worker who gave him all the info on OW's previous stint with the other guy and I will email her to see if she knows any contact for OWH. I have no idea how to contact OWH since I don't know his name or anything else.

Okay, I'm confused. You list your D-day as 1/07. So that means there has continued to be non-work related contact for 6 months, right? Even the no contact letter (followed by 2 more contacts), started out with congratulations.

And now you think that they can continue working together without continuing the affair? I would ask hubby HOW he can guarantee that will happen.

I have a suggestion. Do this NOW without telling your H. Tell him afterwards. He will be tempted to WARN the OW to pre-empt you and this will quickly become a disaster. Look up her name in the phone book or in www.peoplefinders.com and get her H's name.

Okay, I think I have confused everyone so let me just go over the basic stuff of what happened...the shortest version I can post...

I found emails in January of this year that were sent in October of last year from WH to OW when they were working in the same department. He worked in the field and she in the office. Very rarely physically saw each other...office in completely different city. WH was told in addition to other employees that they needed to clean out their Blackberry's as well as their email accounts on the company intranet otherwise it would slow down the Blackberry's. WH is not too computer literate so asked me if I would do this for him. He had 1300 emails to go through. I made it to Octobers and opened the emails because the subject matters looked suspicious and a bit too friendly. However, this was not done until January because I was not aware of the intranet nor had WH been to the site because he had no reason to be on it. I had to help WH login and even find the emails etc.

Once I found the emails...long before I found MB, I approached him angrily and asked him what the you know what they were about? They were the "at it with the wife again" "she's driving me nuts" "I'd rather stay at work" on his part and OW's responses were something like "some of us have to work for a living" (Me-SAHM) and then the names...WH called her "slave-driver" and "boss" and she'd reply flirtatiously "I am not your boss" and so on. Very quick short emails that went back and forth for quite a while.

WH was like a child with his hand caught in the cookie jar. Extremely remorseful and upset that he had hurt me. I vented to a friend who had been through something similar but not until a few months later and she recommended MB. I read lots and lots of posts and showed tons to WH and finally showed him the NC letter that someone (sorry cant remember who right now) graciously posted for him. He decided at the time not to do it because he had not worked directly with her-had already been transferred to another department since about the time I found out about this. I was upset about this (decision to not do the NC letter) but came to realize that his decisions are not for me to make. I can only control me and my decisions. He knew it needed to be done and decided abruptly to do it on Wednesday because after avoiding her for months, she called about the awards ceremony and would not quit calling him. Hence the NC email...Sorry...my short version was not so short... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

The NC letter and the immediate follow up to take fault for the conversations were the only two contacts. There was not another email or contact to OW and this was before we knew about the other guy OW had done this to previously.

Does this help explain it??

I would just like to add that although I am aware of how I feel, I am taking this advice you are sending VERY seriously because I am also aware of the fact that the MBer's who have been posting have either been through what I am going through or have seen it work/not work when other couples have taken/not taken the correct measures to see that their M's are changed.

So from your understanding what was the nature of their A? How long? Was there SF?

The nature was completely emotional. I know there was no SF never even a brush on the shoulder or an accidental touch. They don't physically work together. They communicated by phone/email because he was in the field and she was in the office and they were responsible for communications to the homeowners from their respected places. They worked directly together for approximately a year and a half. I am confident that everything I know about what has happened is true on my WH part.

I want to add in his defense that he adores me, he adores his children and I think my intuition is pretty good. I picked up on this deal before he even knew what hit him and when we found out earlier in the week about her crying over him leaving her dept. and how he wasn't the first one, that was validation in my feelings. I completely think she has already scoped out her next victim. That seems to be her M.O. I know many on this site will disagree with me, but I think my intuition is fairly good and I have been right so far in what it has told me. Feel free to comment on that part if you wish, but know that I am not soliciting advice on that part because I know my reaction at this point is against MB policies.

I think that some (NOT ALL) men are oblivious in comparison with women and their intuition. I completely believe that this OW knew exactly what she was doing and although my WH takes fault for his part, he saw what was going on as just a friendship and nothing more. Although now, he feels and knows quite differently. If there comes a setback, then obviously we are back to DDay and will deal then, but until then, I believe that I am not living in a fog and hope to prove that one day! If I cannot, I will come, tail between legs and share.

However, you wanted to know the nature of the EA and so I wanted to tell you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I will only comment that I think you are right on. I have learned the hard way never to ignore my intuition and many others here will tell you the same. Our instincts told us something was wrong, and we ignored it at our own peril. I sure did!

Thanks ML for the comment. I really am digesting everything I read on this site. It's quite overwhelming at times!

One problem I see is that your husband doesn't have proper boundaries.

His messages to her -

"at it with the wife again" "she's driving me nuts" "I'd rather stay at work"

are HIGHLY INNAPROPRIATE in a work setting, and especially between members of the opposite sex. He needs to keep his home life and job separate.

Also I would work on whatever changes you need to make to change whatever was going on in the marriage to make him feel like. Or was he just trying to get her sympathy?

Also the NC letter just bothers me. I know you explained it, but "Congratulations on the award!" just doesn't sound much like a man who desires no contact from a woman.

I let him know of the inappropriateness of the "congrats" in the NC letter. He was confused because he is breaking off what he thought was a normal friendship. You are correct about the boundaries and although he sees it now, he didn't before and is still learning about what those are. We will speak of this again later this evening when the boys are asleep. I too, thought it quite contradictory...Congrats...don't ever call me again...yeah, sounds kinda misleading...

He is still trying to process what has happened. He avoids conflict at all costs unlike myself who says- bring it on. I am confident that until he does find another job, that he is sincere in his feelings about fixing our marriage. I understand the whole recovery deal that has been posted to me about how it cannot begin until there is no chance for contact and as I said in my last post, my intuition at this point says I need not worry. If we get to a place where I feel otherwise, we deal with it then.

Momentary ThreadJack...

:::::::::::{{{{{{{{{{believer}}}}}}}}}:::::::::::::

Done.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

LA

Okay. In the meantime, be sure to spend 15 hours a week doing fun things together, without the kids. Can you manage that?

And I would ask him to take the emotional needs questionnaire. Since he is a conflict avoider, he might not let you know what they are in the normal course of things.

Ok - play that game...it will get you no where.

Mel, Mim and others here have helped me. My wife had an EA for about a year. NOTHING changed for the better in our
M until my wife found a new job away from the OM.

My dday was May 06 - today she wouldn't chit on him if he asked twice and said preaty please.

New job is a must.

I'm not fighting against you, I'm fighting for you.

LA what does this mean? Not familiar with it??? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

B-

No, we have not figured out how to manage the 15 hours. He commutes and does not get home til 6 or 6:30 at which time he spends that after dinner time with the kids. I get one hour of "talk" time at night since my biggest EN is communication. Although we know this isn't even close to enough, we truly can't figure out how to factor in all the other hours we need during the week. If I get all his time in the evenings, the kids get nothing. That has been a real struggle to figure out. We did do the EN questionnaire- it was the first thing we did when finding the site. His EN's are admiration/affection. We knew right away that neither one of our needs were being met. Right now, the needs are being met satisfactorily to us both and we have seen a tremendous improvement on both sides.

M2L- I know that you are fighting for me and not against me, but I would really rather not see any frustrated posts from you. I KNOW what you want us to do but right now, it's my choice not to. OWH could be a raving lunatic for all I know. I have to believe that contacting the OWH would be something I had to do if I knew he was a normal loving committed H and right now I don't believe that for a second. Three separate people have told WH that this man has cheated on his wife numerous times, so what makes you think he's gonna care that his wife is lonely? Of course she's freakin lonely...he's screwing around on the side!!

M2L- Right now, I am only replying to the posts that are given me. I am not seeking new advice because of the way I am choosing to handle things. Right now, I wish the NC email had never been sent because I think we were doing better in the MBers eyes than we are now. Nowhere on here am I trying to dismiss my WH role in all of this, nor is he. What I am trying to do is express my feelings of how just up and quitting his job would put us on the street.

You want the rundown---here it is...We live pay to pay as it is and what he makes, he cannot just make anywhere. He has no degree, nor certifications that he can just pick up and move anywhere. We are searching daily for jobs and he has sent numerous resume's and applications out and even made phone calls to previous employers. You cannot get a job if you cannot get hired. He's not freakin being picky about what job to take and what job not to take but a family of four will not survive on minimum wage. It's not about ego at this point, it's about paying the bills. We are not in debt- for the first time in almost 10 years, we have a mortgage and one vehicle payment and the only reason we have the vehicle payment is because his 12 year old truck died last winter. We don't live large. We have a modest house that is sufficient for our needs. I home school our children, everything we do is on a budget. I don't buy new clothes, my children have what they need and anything extra comes from grandma. I am not soliciting pity, just a little understanding. I have said before that I UNDERSTAND that if my choice backfires, then I will deal, and I don't think I am soliciting new advice, just replying to what I see that concerns my situation. If you cannot help, I get that. Really, I do. I take every advice on here seriously and into consideration. I just don't get why you think it's so easy to just sell the house, pick a new state from the atlas and head out on the range. Houses in our subdivision have been for sale for almost a year- foreclosure may be a drastic and wonderful measure for some to avoid stalkers and serial killers, but that's not us.

Our M is extremely important to us whether you choose to believe that or not, it really is. We feel that we are beginning to heal and if it wasn't like that, then more drastic measures would be taken as needed. I am not in some kind of hazy wonderland of happiness. I am being extremely cautious, intuitive and loving a husband who is reciprocating very nicely. The advice that is being given, or questions being asked, I will kindly reply to but not the frustrations.

Sorry, J...that was a drive-by hugging you witnessed.

I haven't gotten to do that on any threads where believer and I were posting...I really didn't mean to interrupt.

A self-centered act, you could say.

May I hug you, too? ((JLashley))

LA

Ok - I will back out of your thread as you wish

I leave you with.... Good Luck

Okay...my WH is sitting here an would like to hear from any FWS's who are male and have done what he is attempting to do in order to save their marriage...quit their job, moved away, anything drastic that worked without living out of a cardboard box.

M2L you are the MALE in this deal. Your wife quit her job, but were you relying on her income to survive if she didn't find another job? I didn't ask you to leave, I just asked you to refrain from the frustrated posts that are rhetorical and will get you nowhere with me...I will put a new post out there to the FWS's and hopefully someone will be able to help. You hiring?

LA: I sure could use a hug! That post made me smile...thanks <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

jlashley,
which state are you in? I know there are lots of houses being built in Texas right now. I could tell you some cities where there is a lot of growth.

Move- We live in West VA. Thank you for the informative reply. What cities are you speaking of? We are not avoiding any place in particular and will gladly check into anything sent our way...

There are lots of places around the Dallas area. They have lots of companies that build houses there. Also north of Austin there is a lot of house counstruction. I am fairly certain Houston would be similar.


have you looked online at places like careerbuilders.com? You can choose from hundreds of locations and jobs.

Yes, tirelessly. I actually found a site that listed like 50 different job sites you could look up. The problem we would have right off the bat would be selling the house. Moving really is not the issue at all. We have wanted to move for a while and when/if the housing market picks back up, we will likely take advantage of it. We both have our families close by too and with the kids, it's nice to have that. However, that being said, I will certainly send for info from all those areas you suggested as well as look for jobs in those specific locations. Thank you again for your input! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Have you considered your husband talking to his supervisor and trying to get a transfer? Maybe she could get a transfer? Maybe they could lay her off?

Maybe if you talk to her husband, he'll help her leave her job. Then you could stay.

I'm giving hubby a couple of points for being interested in MB. That is a good sign.

B-

He has been 100% interested since day 1. He has never defended what he has done nor gotten mad at me regarding the poor decisions he has made. I just posted somewhere else to Lake that when he did the NC email, it was something he said he would do but didn't feel comfortable doing it when I asked him to because at that time, there literally had been NC for a few months. I wasn't happy about this but had to respect his decision (reminding him that he was losing love deposits rapidly for not doing it then). When she called him 2x Wednesday morning, he felt at that point that he had to do it and he panicked and instead of running it past me first, he just sent it to her and CC'd me. He knows without a doubt that looking back, the congrats on the award was completely inappropriate.

Nevertheless, he is always willing to listen to the posts that I send and receive.