The clock is not neccessarily set back to zero. Each time she doesn't get ahold of OM it is another withdrawal for him from her love bank. I would not contact him and ask if he can help you because if he does contact her, even if it is to say stop calling me, it will give her hope that her tactics worked and she can get him to respond again if she just calls enough. Best to leave it alone. Just let her know that you understand she is hurting and that you are there for her. This is a perfect plan A opportunity. I also agree that you need to detach your WW as much as possible from the BFF. She is only making it harder for your WW to come back to reality by giving her false hope with OM. At least you only have to get rid of a friend. My WH's entire family knew and were HAPPY about the A because they thought it meant he would get rid of me. Now that we are back together my hatred of them is even more and I still have to deal with them because they are my inlaws. Anyone have any advice about that one? Hang in there. It is hard, but worth it in the end if it works out for you both. My prayers are with you.

OK, now I have a little more time to get to the latest details:

WW has been focused on looking for a new job and now has three places interested in her. All would require a move, and one of them would be to another state. She is currently making arrangements to visit these cities to interview. She expressed to me that she's not as interested in one but doesn't know how to tell them. I suggested she could use me as an excuse and say that she's worried I wouldn't be able to find a job in the area. She paused noticably and then told me 'I thought we discussed this. I might need to go by myself and think about things without any external influence.' I told her that although we had discussed it, I didn't agree with it and that I would want to go with her. She again mentioned how 'I don't want you to come along and then if things don't work out leave you stuck in a new place' (Wow, me neither!)

She was in a depressed state this past weekend. I made arrangements for us to take a trip to a museum and have a nice dinner afterward. WW was very down the whole time and kept saying negative things like 'I can't do anything right' after we got a little lost getting there. When I would try and show affection by holding her hand, she would ask me 'What are you doing? Why are you doing that?' This continued into the next day where she would continue to say things like 'Why do you want to be with someone who's a liar and wants to run away?' I have a hard time responding to such negativity because I don't think I can say 'You're NOT a liar' because I found out when I next checked the phone bill that she had called OM again late Thursday night after I had gone to bed.

She was just as down (if not moreso) on Sunday. I took her to a movie that a few weeks ago she said she really wanted to see. But when I asked her that day if she wanted to see it, she just shrugged and said 'whatever'. And afterward, she said 'you didn't have to see this, you could've seen something you wanted.'

Before we went to bed Sunday night, she started asking me questions and making statements and we had a pretty long discussion. She told me that she hasn't been bringing up the topic with me because she felt I was just going to throw everything back in her face, be judgmental and sit on my moral high horse of how I'm the victim and she's the bad person. She reminded me that I have no place to judge her because of all the things I did that contributed to this situation, like not doing the dishes and letting a big weed grow in the backyard years ago. She noted she felt trapped in her own home due to my snooping and that I've made her BFF too afraid to call. And the new charge is that I'm dismissive of her feelings because when she says she's thinking of moving away without me I just tell her I disagree and it's not OK. To her it means I'm not listening or validating her feelings.

I asked her if she wanted to hurt me and she said no. So I told her that the No. 1 way she is hurting me is by calling OM and she needs to stop doing that. She said she didn't think she could do that because it's too hard and she just wants answers from OM. I told her that's not unusual and that I think she's strong enough to do it.

I told her the No. 2 way she hurts me is the lies and that if she does contact OM she needs to tell me about it. She said she wasn't aware she was supposed to tell me everytime she contacted him (gee, no, just tell me every other time <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />). She then admitted that she had called him recently because she wanted his advice on the career decisions she's making.

She reiterated that she's not running off to be with him, it's just that she needs some space. I told her that it's not OK for a married woman to do that, it's something that a single woman does. 'Yeah, but we don't have a real good marriage anymore,' she argued. I confirmed that she has an appt. with the counselor on Thursday afternoon and she said she'll probably discuss these issues with him. That long enough for y'all? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Next time she says this, ask her how behaving like a single woman will help foster a good marriage again. Tell her that you are doing everything you can to make this a good marriage again, and you would like her to jump on board as well because if she does, you know things will work out between the two of you.

Right now you just need to work at meeting her needs, getting NC with the OM, and outlasting her bit of selfishness.

When she asks stuff like why would you want to be with a liar or whatever, just say "I took vows, and I hold them dear to my heart...for better or worst. I love you, you are my wife and I will love you unconditionally {[add this if you want:] until you are not my wife}

Also, what are the consequences for OM when he talks to your WW? Is he married? Does his wife know? Did you expose him to his family and friends? Don't let OM get away with talking to your WW. Make there be consequences for continuing to communicate.

Thankfully, OM has not communicated with WW in any way since his last day at her workplace on 6/15. See my previous thread, "Affair over for OP, but not for WS," for more details there. He originally told her he'd contact her in a few weeks after he'd gotten settled in his new job. But he hasn't answered his phone when she calls and hasn't returned her messages. Of course, WW has blamed me for this situation because I informed OMGF.

I will try and stick to this thread from now on out and just change the subject as necessary. Is that what the regulars here recommend? Thank you all so much, BTW, for your help and advice! Seeing a new message on my thread(s) brings me happiness that has been so lacking for the last few months.

I think it's supposed to be 'for better or worse' but your version made me laugh. Freudian slip, maybe?

When she told me that moving away and being on her own was something she might need to do for herself, I replied that if it was just to help herself then it wasn't to help the marriage. She continued to express her ambivalence about the marriage, saying she wasn't sure it would work out and she hadn't decided what she wanted. Also that she didn't have any feelings/emotions left anymore, she was just empty inside.

That's good advice, thank you. I wasn't sure how to respond to her statement of 'I don't want you to come along and then the marriage doesn't work out so I've ruined your life even more' other than thinking 'Yeah, I don't want that either!' But I did tell her that a good marriage wasn't just going to happen or not happen on its own.

Bguy,

Essentially, you are trying to work on recovery and NC is not in place. This won't work.

When NC is not in place, you can assume that everything your WW says has as an underlying objective of continuing the A. There may be shreds of truth in what she says, but it is only presented in order to further the A.

The risk of continuing these talks is that you get sucked in and then change your plan.

You need to set your self a timeline. How long will you plan A? Decide that and then plan A, while getting ready for plan B.

Continue to reiterate.

"If you move, I will follow, unless you expressly tell me no, in which case, I will assume that you are continuing your A"

"Every time you break NC you disrespect and hurt me"

A third one I might mention is "If you end our M this way, we will no longer have a relationship, not friends, not anything"

Continuing to debate things with a WS is a waste of time. Debate only works when both parties are rational and WS's aren't rational.

Easier said than done. No matter the pain...I see that you have to pray for patience, and calmness...one day the WS will see clearly (right? this is what im telling myself anyway) and will finally get somewhat the pain that has been inflicted on the person he/she suppose to love. Pray for guidance and keep drowning them in ENs. BS should write themselves a poem, paragraph or some kind of chant to read to remind themselves the means to an end...whether its to get your S back or in the end have no regret knowing you did all you could.

BGuy stop asking her so many questions about anything (move, affair, phone bill, your feeling) if you can. It may be annoying her and this is the last thing you want. She will leave you remembering how annoyed you made her.

As a matter of fact...go a week not talking about anything that has to do with the move or affair. Continue ENs and taking her out. Try this for a week, and if successful then try it another week until she's gone. I know, that hurts to hear but it seems to me that she is determine to leave without you. So treat her as that. This is your last chance before she leaves to prove to her that her life will be downright unfulfilling without you....NO LBs. NO questions, just love love love from you (i know, hard-because you want answers and you want things to change-NOW) but you can do it.

YOU Can Do IT!!!!!!!! And if you do Plan A as perfect as you can...you would have done the best you could--no regrets. Then you dont have to say, "what if i hadn't upset her so much or what if i had did this more."

Because look at it this way....OM is messing up. (actually it seems he could give a rat's @$$ about her but still). OM is ignoring her and withdrawing loves units....right now you are not depositing too many because of her withdrawals...but once she leaves and thinks....might be 3 weeks after she moves.....She may ponder with clearer thinking (no fog) "hmmmm, OM dont care about me....but my H was always there....OM didnt pick up his phone ......my H called to see how my day was ...OM, wont call me back, rude, OM won't have anything to do with me, my H never left my side....OMGosh! What have I done?"

And when she calls you collect "BGuy, I was a fool, such an awful fool"

Kick her to the curb!!! no <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> J/K but not really.... dont be her door mat....she just can't come cruising back. She's gonna have to work and PROVE that she is sincere.

Hmmm, I thought I was doing Plan A. Believe me, I know I'm not in recovery until NC is firmly in place. And it's not, so I'm full-bore in Plan A.

I do have a rough timeline for Plan A. I don't want to reveal that here because I fear her finding my posts on these boards. But it falls within the general timeline that Dr. Harley recommends.

What has thrown a wrench into my plans and timeline is the possibility she may take a new job in another city and move away. She may receive an offer as early as mid-Sept. although she's said she would give her current employer 1-month's notice.

If that happens, it will cut short my Plan A period and I will be forced into Plan B. I now think Plan B is inevitable, so I'm trying to figure out how best to implement that, given the likely circumstances. I'm trying to figure out how to explain to WW and families that A isn't over for her, when she will tell them that she didn't *really* have an affair and that she hasn't seen or talked to OM in months and she's now moving/moved hundreds of miles away from him.

Maybe my larger fear is that she will agree to NC hesitantly, bring me with her to the new city, and then not commit to the marriage at all.

If there is NC w/ OM, you are meeting her ENs and avoiding LBs, she will eventually come around. However, that may take longer than you would hope or expect. She doesn't need to commit to the marriage right now, she just needs to commit to NC and you need to make sure she follows through (i.e. snoop).

Hmm, maybe I'm not explaining successfully. I do not initiate any conversations about the A or M. Although I checked the phone bill and discovered the recent call, I did not bring it up. But I will always engage in the conversation when WW asks me questions, which is roughly 2-3x per week. That's how this thread started for me: 'What do I say when WW asks me such-and-such question?'

I've been trying to stay calm and upbeat and repeat the mantras you all have provided me with. But this has annoyed her, as she says I'm not validating her feelings, understanding what she's saying, listening to her. That I just have my mind made up because I'm on a moral high horse, etc.

Yes, I am so thankful that OM has not contacted WW in any way. I don't know why exactly, but I don't really care.

Yes, that's what I want her to realize! BUT if I engage in Plan B if/when she moves away, won't I be the jerk who isn't picking up the phone? I'm concerned that she'll spin it that way to her family, who will then back her up and agree that I'm a big jerk who should be thankful she's giving me the time of day and I've totally blown out of proportion her friendship with OM.

In numerous parts of your post I picked up on the theme that you wife wants you to be a better listener. Becoming a better listener will benefit you. My wife gave me massive amounts of information when I let her. When you listen you gain knowledge. Listen and observe it will give you power to deal with this situation.

Bguy,

Sorry - I'm not trying to be confusing. Maybe I'm reading your posts wrong with respect to your state of mind. Maybe one of your WW EN's is conversation and you are trying to meet that EN during your plan A. I just hope you realize that anything she says while still in contact should be taken with a grain of salt, so to speak.

I believe you said she filled out the EN q's and went to a couple of MC sessions. These things may look like progress, but they seldom mean anything if contact continues.

Filling out the EN's, MC, etc. are part of recovery. When a WS agrees to them while continuing to have contact, they are more likely doing it as a bargaining chip.

As an example, "Look, I did the MC, I did the questionare, you've been really trying hard, but I just don't feel it. Its not about the A, I have no intention of seeing OM. I just think it would be best if we have some time apart"

It sounds like your WS's objective is to get you to move your boundary.

Anyway, as long is you are committed to sticking to your plan, than the above is irrelevant. I just don't want to see you posting in a couple a months about how your WW has moved out and you agreed to it because she said she would do this or that.

Yes, she listed Conversation as her No. 1 EN and marked that when I am not willing to talk with her it makes her feel very unhappy. Part of the reason she's been unhappy with our conversations in the past is that when she "vents" about something, I want to try and find a solution. It's natural for me to want to help her not be unhappy. But I'm sure most of you on here know (as I now do) that is not what I should've been doing. Instead I need to lend a sympathetic ear.

As you nailed, part of the problem now is that some of her conversation is simply fog-speak and I've been trying to avoid debating those. Unfortunately, then she complains that I'm ignoring her feelings.

She has not attended MC sessions. She has been adamant about there not being a point, etc. I haven't brought it up for a long time because I knew that NC/Withdrawal had to happen first.

I recognize that the EN Q she filled out is slightly tainted by current events, but she filled it out quite thoroughly and with many details. There were also things I knew nothing about. So I'm using it solely as Plan A information, not as evidence of R.

Yeah, I was sure that was what she would say after the first session with IC, but instead she's going back for another session this Thursday. I find that promising, but it's definitely no guaranty.

No doubt. It's very plain to see that she wants me to agree to her moving out on her own, agree to just being friends, agree to everything she wants.

I know will need continued strength to set my boundaries and enforce them, so your reminders and support are greatly appreciated. *I will not agree to her moving away w/o me!*

WW has been generally pleasant this week, but emotionally distant. I thought I had treated her to a nice weekend by taking her to a museum exhibition in another city and then an expensive dinner on the river at a place we've never been to. So I was disappointed when her latest correspondence to her BFF completely ignored all of that and just said she didn't do much over the weekend other than sleep in and watch a movie. I'm guessing her BFF thinks I'm a horrible husband that traps his wife indoors or something.

I offered up the idea to go to a bed and breakfast/massage place outside the city for this weekend, and it was rejected on the basis of it being a waste of money. She did say, however, that she'd like the massage, so I booked that for her. I see this as a positive because prior to all this, she refused to consider getting a massage. Even after she had gotten one, she was very hesitant when I booked a second one, and would use every excuse not to go (It's a waste of money, I don't like attention, It's too far, etc.)

She has a job interview lined up over the next weekend which will require a few hours of driving and then staying overnight. I will be driving us there and staying with her. Of course, in her correspondence to BFF, she says she will be driving over. It seems like she's deliberately trying to make me look bad to BFF, to justify everything. For instance, BFF has repeatedly asked about coming out to visit later this fall and now WW has told her that the two of them should just meet at the airport, go have fun in another city on their own and leave me at home because I still have 'issues' to deal with. I'm trying to figure out if there is some way I can reach out to BFF and share my side of the story and how WW has not been completely honest with her, either. The two of them seem to have a really bad feedback loop going of vilifying me. Which is obviously really easy for BFF because she doesn't see all the effort I've been putting in. I'm also considering reaching out to BFF's H and explaining the truth of the matter, since I'm sure he doesn't know how his W encouraged the A. I am holding off on that kind of exposure for a couple of reasons. One, I know it

I was waiting to see how WW's 2nd session with IC went last night, but she didn't even bring it up. I didn't know if it'd seem pushy to ask how it went or if it'd seem uncaring to completely ignore it, so I just asked briefly at the end of the day if it went OK and got a brief affirmative. I asked if she had another appointment and she said she did. I don't know when that is, but it gives me some hope. Not knowing what the two of them discuss is a little unnerving, but the IC did have three sessions with me, so he knows more than BFF. Her seeing a counselor at all is a huge step, so I'm cautiously optimistic that she will see the truth eventually. But she has inherited a certain amount of stubbornness from her father that worries me.

And the time it could take to turn that ship around is a problem due to the job situation. Between working and sleeping, she has spent all her time for the past couple of months on her job search. In all the time we've been together, nothing takes precedence over her career and I do not doubt she will take one of these two jobs. I think she is under the delusion that she will leave me behind, tell her family that things just didn't work out between the two of us (or that I was an awful, awful husband and she was completely unhappy for our whole marriage) and she'll get to live an exciting, free single life with all her money.

One of the job possibilities is actually out of the state. Will this cause any legal hassles regarding future LSAs or D?

Don't talk to the BFF. She can twist your story, you can already see that this woman can not be trusted. Don't let WW know that you know she's lying about you to BFF. If you really do want to prove to the BFF that you are not the monster WW is making you out to be, beat her at her own game.

This is tricky seeing that BFF encouraged affair, so think long and hard about this one: Invite BFF and WW to a spa together...You call BFF and let her know that you have no problem with her and WW being together (even though u really do....but think about this one, I'm not too sure)

On a safer note, can you call BFF's H for something else (borrow a powertool-i dont know), and just sort of run around the fact that you guys had this awesome weekend, and that you guys are going to do some more stuff some other weekend?

Don't make it seem like you are trying to contradict what WW has said, but that you are just simple making conversation and have no idea that WW has already spoken to BFF about anything.

Or try this......
Call BFF up and say: "I really love my wife and have been trying for some time to prove this to her. I took her here and/or I did this for her" (mention what you did) "but yet I dont think its enough. I'm calling you because you are her BFF and you know things that I do not. Tell me please...What do you think I could do for her to really make her smile. I've been trying so hard but nothing seems to work. I know you feel weird about me and I'm sorry for calling you that one day, but I was just angry." (Who cares if you have to lie to BFF-get your point across) "So can you help me, what can I do?"

BFF out of shear evilness may not tell you anything, but u dont care, this is just a technique to get her thinking hmmmm? She may not even believe you, but she will sure start thinking.

Bguy,

The idea that you don't listen during conversations needs to be addressed.

People say this when they feel they have tried to convey their feelings and they have not been successful in doing so, or when they think the other person has not reacted in a way that shows that the communication has been appropriately received.

This is common between men and women, when women try to communicate issues regarding emotional states, and they seem to just nearly literally go right over the men's heads. A very common complaint that I hear over and over!

Why don't men listen when I talk about my feelings?

hmmmmmmm


Have you heard what she is saying? Because this appears to be her complaint, Bguy.

When she says, "don't fix it", she means she wants you to do some things that don't involve giving her suggestions on ways to actively change her own behavior or try to influence that of others.

What she wants is for you to hear her needs. It is highly probable that she wants to influence YOUR behavior regarding its influence on her feelings. The change she seeks is not likely particularly self-change; rather, she seeks to get you to hear her grievances in an emotional sense, and try to get you to understand her emotional state. The underlying hope is that perhaps there may be a change in you somehow that might lend support. If she has done this in the past, and your response has not been to change (or meet the emotional need she was trying to convey), this is perhaps contributory to the state of the marriage - which was apparently not meeting her needs at the time.

Women also may tend to try to vent emotions seemingly randomly, but it really isn't the case. It is a way to attempt to gain intimacy. Whether you believe this or not, it is true. A woman who has no interest in a man does not open up her emotional state and vent deep and intimate emotional thoughts to him, and beg him to listen to her. Just doesn't happen that way.

So there is still "something" there for you, Bguy. You have a shot at it with her - you need to tap into this emotional need for conversation. You need to beef up your skills.

How to do that?

Listen.

When she is talking about her feelings - the VERY NEXT TIME she states how she feels about something - stop yourself and really listen to her. Then do something truly remarkable.

Tell her that you heard what she said. Repeat, "What you said is that you feel ..... about ...."

Then the remarkable part: YOU TELL HER WHAT YOU FEEL ABOUT IT TOO. FEELINGS. Not a solution, not a fact, not anything else. Just say, "You know, I feel the same way." (If you do), or "I think I feel ..... about that."

And then go ONE step further:

ASK HER:

1. CAN YOU SHARE WITH ME MORE ABOUT HOW YOU FEEL ABOUT IT?
2. WHY DO YOU THINK FEEL THAT WAY?

(For additional ideas, here are some more questions you could ask...if she doesn't open up with the others!)
3. HAVE YOU ALWAYS FELT LIKE THAT, OR IS THIS NEW? IF IT'S NEW, WHAT DO YOU THINK MADE IT CHANGE?
4. DO YOU WANT TO FEEL THAT WAY, OR WOULD YOU CHANGE IT IF YOU COULD?

Watch her face...............

Because I am willing to bet you are one of the few men to ever ask those questions of her.

And the icing on the cake is that you will then:

LISTEN WITH TRUE ATTENTION TO HER ANSWER, AND LEARN SOMETHING NEW ABOUT YOUR WIFE:

THAT SHE HAS A REASON FOR FEELING THE WAY SHE DOES, AND HAS BEEN WAITING FOR YOU TO ASK HER ABOUT IT.

Of course, if her answer to wanting to change her feelings is yes, it could lead into a discussion about ways that she, or you, or together as a team might do things to make changes that would work.....

Men talk of being glazed over when women talk of feelings. It's not that hard, really. Feelings are just a way to open a discussion about difficult topics sometimes, in a more gentle way. You can get there, but you just have to open the gate with the right combination, and you have to

listen to the answers
and then
ask more questions.

Make it a two-way talk, but one in which you more or less "interview" her....about her feelings....does that make sense?


Hope this helps.

Schoolbus

I agree. That's one reason I've been loathe to confront her about her involvement. Once I reveal what I know, that avenue will be shut down in the future.

Only problem with these for me is that BFF and H live hundreds of miles away and I haven't seen them for more than a year.

Yeah, I guess that's what I've generally been doing and I will simply ramp up Plan A on BFF. Kill her with kindness, so to speak.

It's not that I'll be telling her any lies, I will simply be speaking the truth about how much I love my W and the actions I'm taking to show her that love. And giving BFF a chance to help me do so.

I don't think BFF is evil. I think she is just misguided. She cares so much about maintainting the friendship with my WW that she will never tell WW what she is doing is wrong, no matter what she does. She doesn't believe in right and wrong, either, she ascribes to personal morality ('just do what feels right to you'). BFF has told WW that if she chooses to recommit to the marriage BFF would back her decision, 'but don't do something just because you think it's the right thing to do'

Anyway, you're right that this plan kind of weirds the other person out. Right after D-Day, WW and I had a romantic weekend getaway and I posted photos on my web site. Later on when WW complained about my awfulness, BFF said she was confused and didn't know what to think. BFF has mentioned that maybe I'm just putting on a front. Yeah, I guess BFF would know something about that...