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are you willing to go in to counseling with her over this...

I still don't understand what you are saying...

are you saying there are specific acts she did with om that she won't with you...
or
are you saying she does not instigate or is enthusiastic in being with you at all...

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If I was a BW insisting that my FWH hold my hand in public because he did with OW, I doubt anyone would see it as punishment.


I guess you have a point there. The thing is, holding hands is not equivalent to sexual intercourse, and to the many things that can be done together during intercourse, which is a VERY intimate act between husband and wife.

And, I've been rejected this way, in terms of not holding hands, all the way down to SF, and intercourse. I can't MAKE HIM LOVE ME. Again, as long as I'm holding up my end, I feel better . If my WH chooses to remain guarded, and at arm's length, this relationship will unravel nearly on it's own, and not because I didn't try.

Krazy, I totally understand how you feel, and don't AT ALL want to diminish the pain and anger you feel. It's a valid response. I just want for you to look at WHY you want what she gave OM, and not something of your own; something created between the two of you.

I am in a very rocky boat of my own with much the same reasoning as you have; that I have been LEVELED by the choices he's made, and now he's allowed to come home and not give me what I really need from him.

Your posts always hit me at the core, because I completely understand where this comes from.

I choose not to focus on the unmet ENs as much as those that are met. I continue to work on myself and hope for more intimacy. Time will tell.

There is no one here stating that you have to 'take it' or remain married to your FWW. I don't believe in waiting forever, but I do believe in giving it YOUR ALL.


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So, once again, I've got to put my needs on the back burner, "get over it", be a good boy and then MAYBE, somewhere down the road, I'll get some vague facsimile of my needs being met.

Well, you can sit on your pity pot, crying about Not Fair! and She Owes ME....

Or you can take responsibility for your own recovery and let her work hers out.

If you gain, at her expense, your MARRIAGE loses.

You made the choice to go through recovery, so its up to you to participate by pulling your part.

What you WANT right now is normal, but NOT healthy or productive.

If you want selfish dirty sex - go get it - after you are divorced.

But demanding selfish dirty sex from your wife as your EN is going to destroy your claimed goal of recovery.

You THINK that it will make you feel better...but what it will do is HARM YOUR WIFE.

How does recovery work by demanding that she be harmed?

I'm not demanding it from her. I've stated it as a need. I don't harp on it every day, or every week. I made a conscious effort to for 18 months before d-day to be better about meeting her needs, and I've done the best I can since then.

Her "dirty, selfish sex with OM" didn't harm her at all until she was busted. She liked it. Liked it enough to risk everything, including my health and the health of our unborn baby. Had I not caught her there would've been zero consequences for her actions.

With me, doing it voluntarily and enjoying it, it would be harmful?


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"If I was a BW insisting that my FWH hold my hand in public because he did with OW, I doubt anyone would see it as punishment."

If the BS said, He should be willing to hold my hand and be grateful I even want to - holding his hand is like touching a public urinal...

then I think the response would be the same...

I think maybe what people are trying to point out is that your "attitude and mindset" of anger is getting in the way of what you really want.

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Do you get that....

if she is trying to recover and is truely remorseful...

that what she did should HORRIFY her...

I am not a WS, but I can imagine as a woman, that I would be sick to my stomach and absolutely repulsed by acting with MY HUSBAND the way I did with OM.


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So, once again, I've got to put my needs on the back burner, "get over it", be a good boy and then MAYBE, somewhere down the road, I'll get some vague facsimile of my needs being met.

No, not exactly.

But, consider that this is pretty close to the definition of investment. Doing something now, with the expectation of future returns.

But I believe you consider it to be a definition of sacrifice. Probably because you don't believe you will receive future returns.

Really the only difference between the two (investment and sacrifice) is what you expect to happen.

Nobody is advising that you sacrifice, they are advising you to invest. It's a risky, sometimes painful, and counterintuitive way to deal with A's.


Me 43 BH
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D-day July, 2005
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Krazy,

Why would you want to settle for what OM got? All he got was an empty, lust-filled, unethical...lay. Don't you want the kind of sexual experience that isn't based on hedonism, but on love and commitment? I agree with the poster who said you don't sound like you need sex....you sound like you need to punish. You need to control. You need to exert power over her. You need to make her pay....with her flesh. This is unhealthy for you.

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Krazy:

I knew this thread would get a lot of attention but didn't count on the number of 2X4's you would get!

I think that one of the reasons that this is such a charged issue is that SF means so much more to a man than most people think, and to be betrayed by a spouse having an affair and to be continually rejected by a spouse can be devastating, maybe just as devastating.

What complicates it is that SF isn't just a physical need, it is a connection, and a validation and acceptance of who you are as a husband.

When you continually reject a spouse's needs, it is as if they are saying, "I no longer find you attractive, I no longer respect you. I am not grateful for the things you do because I don't like how you do them or I don't think that you do enough."

Has to hurt.

For those that are making light of Krazy's desire, let me ask you this. If his spouse had enjoyed conversation with her OM, would you be judgmental in his desire to have good, fun conversation with his spouse?

Of course not. It is a need he has, and he has that need because he is human.


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star*fish,

That is exactly what I meant. She did something terrible to him, and now she must suffer.

Krazy, this may not be your intent, but it is what is perveyed through your words on the flat screen.

I want my husband to want me, not because he did something wrong and I deserve it, but because something I do entices him, intrigues him, enduces a feeling inside him.

I was going to bump this thread this morning, simply because of how it made me feel to read what you initially posted (you beat me to it) It's RAW. I FEEL what you are saying, and I know there is a better way to deal with this. I hope for you the same peace that I have found, in a very tough recovery.

I think there are many asking if your wife is fulfilling YOUR EN for SF, and if not, how are you approaching this thing? Do you actually want acts done that were specifically done to the OM? If so, do you know whether or not your wife is willing or unwilling, and why? She may feel SHAME when doing them. She may be triggered in some other way. Is that okay with you? You would wish pain on her, the triggers and shame? Why?


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Krazy,

Why would you want to settle for what OM got?

I don't JUST want that...I want it all. I want everything from romance novel type sex to triple-x-rated over-the-top sex. I really don't think it's asking too much.


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Ah, see, onmywayhome, what makes his need for SF any less important than my, as a woman, need for affection, or any other need for that matter?

I don't have my most important EN's met right now. That's the long and short of it. I have voiced my needs. They go unmet. I don't think anyone is trying to make Krazy feel LESS THAN about the need, but we are trying to get the whole story, as to why his FWW may not want to meet this need.

Yes, it hurts to be rejected. I have been rejected by my FWH, in terms of SF and affections, in general. The difference is, how I deal with it. Making it a demand doesn't work. That is also why I asked what his FWW IS DOING RIGHT.


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I really don't think it's asking too much.


But maybe, to your FWW, it IS, which means you have your own decisions to make about your marriage.


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Krazy:

I knew this thread would get a lot of attention but didn't count on the number of 2X4's you would get!

I think that one of the reasons that this is such a charged issue is that SF means so much more to a man than most people think, and to be betrayed by a spouse having an affair and to be continually rejected by a spouse can be devastating, maybe just as devastating.

What complicates it is that SF isn't just a physical need, it is a connection, and a validation and acceptance of who you are as a husband.

When you continually reject a spouse's needs, it is as if they are saying, "I no longer find you attractive, I no longer respect you. I am not grateful for the things you do because I don't like how you do them or I don't think that you do enough."

Has to hurt.

For those that are making light of Krazy's desire, let me ask you this. If his spouse had enjoyed conversation with her OM, would you be judgmental in his desire to have good, fun conversation with his spouse?

Of course not. It is a need he has, and he has that need because he is human.

FINALLY it appears someone is paying attention and actually "getting" what Krazy is trying to communicate.

I've read this entire thread shaking my head, because many well intentioned posters, and some that don't appear to be that well intentioned, appear to be projecting their own version of what they are reading, as opposed to what Krazy is actually writing.

IMHO, this IS NOT about a particular act or position, but many continue to state this problem, but is more about her "willingness" and "enthusiasm".

Krazy is NOT wrong, and IMHO, completely justified in requesting that his W acknowledge and meet this need.

FWIW, Krazy, I "GET IT" and support your efforts to recover what has been taken away from you and given to someone else. It is eating you up that your W "shares something special" with someone else, when she won't even "attempt" to share the same thing with you anymore. It sucks, and you're NOT WRONG for recognizing that IT SUCKS!!!

You have indentified a valid condition for you remaining in the M ... a willing and enthusiastic partner ... and you are well within your rights to expect this condition to be met to remain married to her.

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star*fish,

That is exactly what I meant. She did something terrible to him, and now she must suffer.

Krazy, this may not be your intent, but it is what is perveyed through your words on the flat screen.

I want my husband to want me, not because he did something wrong and I deserve it, but because something I do entices him, intrigues him, enduces a feeling inside him.

I was going to bump this thread this morning, simply because of how it made me feel to read what you initially posted (you beat me to it) It's RAW. I FEEL what you are saying, and I know there is a better way to deal with this. I hope for you the same peace that I have found, in a very tough recovery.

I think there are many asking if your wife is fulfilling YOUR EN for SF, and if not, how are you approaching this thing? Do you actually want acts done that were specifically done to the OM? If so, do you know whether or not your wife is willing or unwilling, and why? She may feel SHAME when doing them. She may be triggered in some other way. Is that okay with you? You would wish pain on her, the triggers and shame? Why?

We have sex, and it is fine.

It does the job physically. We go through the motions, we achieve some physical satisfaction. Just like we always have. No matter how good it is, I know it lacks something. The "something" that would make her want it after puking for 3 hours with morning sickness. It would never happen with me during a mild cold, even if I was dumb enough to ask.

I do not want specific acts that were done with OM. We had already done everything two sane people can do with each other 1,000 times.

I want to feel desired. Lusted after. I want to be looked at as a piece of meat from time to time. It doesn't happen anymore. She's attracted to me, but there's a difference.

What I really want, I suppose, if to get from my wife what other people look for in an affair partner. I don't usually express this type of anger to her, and I don't want her to suffer, hurt, or be punished.

I just want all of my wife back.


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Krazy:

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I want to feel desired. Lusted after. I want to be looked at as a piece of meat from time to time. It doesn't happen anymore. She's attracted to me, but there's a difference.

This takes TIME and frankly, it will take ACTIONS on your part for her to feel that way.

If you sit back, closed off and expecting her to give first, it will never EVER happen, no matter how much you want it, need it, demand it, expect it or are owed it.

Women do not look at husbands as a "piece of meat" without a context of a relationship that makes it SAFE and DESIREABLE.

The relationship context takes time and effort from you BOTH.

Expecting that she just lust after you like the OM is unrealistic and will NOT get you what you want.

Learn to be the husband she NEEDS and the lust will be there...I guarantee it.


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Krazy, I get it. This is what I want, too.

Some may be reading more into it. I was simply wanting to know if it was about punishment . It sounds as if it is not. What you are asking for, though, takes a considerable amount of time and care.


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I am a little confused Krazy. Is your sexual relationship with your wife post-A different from pre-A?

I can completely sympathize with your situation and your feelings. I was just trying to figure out is she different to you post-A, or is it that she was different with OM?


Me-41 BS (FWS)
DH-41 WS (FBS)
2DD's- 10 and 12
Married 15 years
Separated for 2 years after my A
Reconciled for 1 year before his A
D-day for his A 8/23/05
WH moved out 9/16/05
Divorce final 1/23/07
Affair ended or month or so later
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Learn to be the husband she NEEDS and the lust will be there...I guarantee it.

Call me childish, but if I have to change my way of thinking, become "the husband she needs", etc., the problem still isn't solved.

OM didn't have to do squat. He didn't even have to sweet-talk her. One lunch and he was in there.


FINALLY getting what I want after putting out enough effort to become the uber-husband won't work for me. She'll be happy, and I'll be resentful.


Maybe there is no answer. Either get divorced, or take it in the can again.


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Krazy - I know exactly how you feel, even though I am a woman dealing with the same issues with my FWH. For a long time, even pre-A, we were members of the once-a-month club. This was not a club I was happy to be a part of, and I tried so many things to improve the SF, to no avail. As a woman it is particularly painful because it isn't something you want to talk about.
Then FWH goes and has an A and probably had sex with OW more times in the WEEK that he was with her than in the last 6 months of our marriage. That hurt, that hurt bad. It's been about 19 months since D-day and now we're at 2.5 months since any SF. The A is long over, there has been NC for months. I have talked about it with him, gotten angry about it, cried about it...nothing. I get the 's@x isn't the only thing in a marriage, honey'...I just want to shake him and yell F YOU!!!! No, it isn't the only thing in a marriage but you took something that was supposed to be special, that was supposed to be shared between you and I, and you gave it away to someone else! So excuse me for wanting it back - excuse me for wanting my husband to want me, so that maybe MAYBE someday I can begin to forget about the fact that you screwed some 25-year old 2 weeks after our wedding anniversary -- maybe if you touched me or kissed me I could feel special again and attempt to heal --- maybe I could stop being so f-ing hurt and angry inside until sometimes i just want to explode...Yeah, fine it may nto be everything in a marriage, HONEY, but when everything you trusted in and held sacred was ripped out from under you it would sure help to be given a chance to feel good, to feel wanted and desired! So, Krazy, you aren't crazy to have these thoughts and feel this pain...and I think the anger that comes through is more about how much this hurts you than anything.


Me 37, H 38
Dated 5 yrs, M 5/2002
15 yo DD
DDay 1 - 9/2002 OW 20 yo relative of H's friend
DDay 2 - 6/5/06- met OW on 2 week business trip, knew for one week - wanted D. A continued via phone/txt through 9/2006
NC Since 10/2006
DDay 3 - 8/2/08 - OW#1 has slithered back into the picture
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I am a little confused Krazy. Is your sexual relationship with your wife post-A different from pre-A?

I can completely sympathize with your situation and your feelings. I was just trying to figure out is she different to you post-A, or is it that she was different with OM?

Our sex was always good. We had gotten into a rut, but it wasn't bad...it was always the same, though. Neither of us were complaining. I was content.

Post-A I learned that my W had this side of her that could take over and allow her to take crazy risks just to "get some" with someone she barely knew. It was pure lust, obviously.

If there's another man out there that can stir feelings in her that I can't, with little to no effort, I can't live with it. Especially considering she knows how much I'm hurting.

It is very difficult to convey what I'm feeling on a computer without sounding like a whiner or a controlling ******.


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