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There is a way, and take it in the can or get divorced are not the only options.

I am too busy at work to read the entire thread right now, though I am very interested in this discussion, because it is even an issue I am having right now (with myself).

First, for me what stuck out in why she *could* with the OM and is appearing to not be able to with you -

An alien is under the influence of brain chemicals that send your sexual hormones into torpedo drive. Her brain is not producing those kinds of chemicals right now.

And speaking as a woman who is very much in love with her husband, and still a newlywed, I'd like to know how, too...

I want to feel the abandon, the energy, the hormones in torpedo SF drive, too. But with daily issues, children, etc AND without the alien infatuation chemicals putting my brain in that sexually turbo charged state...

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2. Approach me with the same care-free enthusiasm and wreckless abandon as OM. No specific acts or anything...it's all about the mind-set.


How do women (and some men) get to this mind-set?

This is an excellent discussion. Maybe we can all learn soemthing for our own marriages and help your FWW.

I was even thinking of sensuality herbs and even doses of testosterone from the doctor because I feel this way when we travel, or are away for the weekend but the daily responsibilities cause me to not feel this way, well on an average daily basis.

Last edited by JosieJones; 12/10/07 03:26 PM.
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I didn't marry until I was 37 and before I married, I had a number of long term (3 - 5 year) relationships. They all shared some common characteristics:

- The SF in the first year was way hotter than the SF in the last year.
- Even as an open topic of discussion and with willingness on the part of both of us; each of the ladyfriend's and I were unable to restore the SF to the same intensity as we had at the beginning.
- My enthusiasm for SF always returned to the same high level at the beginning of the next relationship.

Each of these was (with one exception) with no affairs affecting the trajectory of the relationship.

Now I'm married, and you know what? The SF is following exactly the same trajectory. The SF starts super hot, cools down and, with work, levels out at a "really good, but not mind blowing" level.

This may only be true for me, but there's something about new romances that is totally chemical. For me marriage is a clear and conscious decision to give up that "smoking hot" SF in exchange for continuity and deepness of relationship. If I wanted it smoking hot all the time, I'd find a new woman every couple of years.

My point is this. I think that you'd be at the same point on the "desire" curve with your wife regardless of the affair. The fact that she could get hot and worked up over some new guy, has absolutely nothing to do with her relationship with you. Much as you might want to be able to turn her on like the OM did; you can't, you don't and you probably never will again -- and it has nothing to do with inadequacy on your part. It's just how people are.

You want blazing hot SF over kids and continuity? Maybe it's time not to be married. Your wife has given you the moral right to dump her and go off and find your own hottie who will be begging for it for a few years. Either get comfortable with the more sedate pace of married sex; or cash it in and go find the next honey. But don't agonize over the basic (and somewhat sad) truth that chemical passion comes most strongly and intensely at the start of each relationship.

Last edited by Mebe; 12/10/07 03:32 PM.
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I am just saying Krazy, don't forget about the brain chemicals the A was producing. And how can those be either produced or simulated in a loving marriage.

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Mebe,

You are right. I should give up any thoughts of reproducing that same passion. Ever. It's not going to happen. It's impossible. A "new" marriage will not equal "new" feelings.

I would be perfectly fine with that if my wife hadn't experienced that rush without me, after several years of marriage. The last time I felt that rush was in 1993, the year we met. I gladly gave it up.

Since D-day, I've had a little voice in my head that keeps asking what being single would be like after all these years. I've always blown it off as me just having a bad day...SURELY I wouldn't be happier without my family. They're all I've known for years. They are why I get out of bed in the morning. Surely?

Wow...this thread has been eye-opening. I'm realizing that I'm permanently damaged. It's taken nearly a year and a half, but I'm never going to be really fixed. Between my parents' cheating, my trust issues, and the way I discovered my W's betrayal, I don't think I can stay and ever be truly happy. I've been mostly miserable the entire time. I will never trust her again.

I really feel like a rotten person.

Why can't people just keep their pants on?


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You are right. I should give up any thoughts of reproducing that same passion. Ever. It's not going to happen. It's impossible. A "new" marriage will not equal "new" feelings.


So this thread was more of a vent, than a way to find answers?

I believe in finding answers, ergo my posts on this thread. Sorry.

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Happiness is a choice Krazy.

Your taker is in full blown rage, fueled by anger and entitlement.

I do think you can have hot passionate lustfull sex with your wife - YOUR SEX, IN YOUR RELATIONSHIP, WITH YOUR WIFE, but it does take TIME to develop the context for which it is possible.

You think you want what she had with OM. I suspect if you got what she had with him, you would not be happy.

Because what she had wasn't just mindless sex and lust - it was empty and selfish.

But as long as you continue to draw a frame around it that forces a context of She Is Holding Out the Good Stuff and She Owes ME...you won't be satisfied.

Are you really permanently damaged?

That's a choice you get to make about yourself.


~ Pain is a given, misery is optional ~
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BrambleRose,

I don't JUST want what OM got...I just want it to be on the menu, along with everything else.

I'm realizing that for whatever reason, probably my own shortcoming, that I do not have what it takes. During our 1st try at MC, I decided to be the best husband I could be. I did it. I loved her like neve before, and she knew it. That's why we agreed to have our 2nd child.

Then I walked in on d-day, 6 weeks after she conceived. My efforts weren't good enough. I know the A was about her shortcomings, but I can't help but feel like my best wasn't good enough. It's not like she was in love with OM, or even hoped to be. I was passed over for what amounted to a series of meaningless one-night stands after all of my effort.

I loved her so much, and it hurts just as much. My best meant nothing.


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Krazy:

I get it.

You want your FWW to desire you the same way, you percieve, she wanted the OM.

She was an animal, filled with lust, and did everything in a carefree manner.

And that's where you get it wrong.

Your post about Pre-A and Post-A SF finally got me.

Your getting the same detached, 85% SF that you were getting before the A, Now.

But she turned it on to 100% when she was with OM. Even, in you thoughts, to 150%.

If this sounds harsh, its not meant to be. I want you to realize, that you think your FWW was something ELSE, when she was with OM. And that she gave it up so quickly, and easily.

Like the OM was the UPS man and he delivered more than the packages, and then he got a TIP.

Your FWW did not slide down that road quite that quickly.

Your FWW did have SF with the OM. Do not presume that it was 150% better than it was with you.

Your FWW is afraid to REALLY tell you what went on. WHY she did SLIDE down that hill. HOW she ended up on that couch. And WHAT she is doing to prevent it from happening again.

THAT is the root of your anger and resentment, and your thoughts that she was the triple X star with OM.

Because you don't really have a clue what really went on.

And its alot easier to hear her say that it was "just Sex" and "Happened" instead of the real TRUTH.

Which is, that other man, in what ever shape or form, found a way in. Lunch may have happened ONCE, but it was all the activity before that. And if she was involved for two years with OM, than there is SO MUCH more to learn.

But, guess what, until she FEELS Safe to tell you that, you will only EVER GET the 85% SF.

I have told my BS everything she wanted to know. At Dday, and in the days following. Even NOW, if there is something that occurs to her, she askes, and I answer. Its been 28 months. And my wife has issues with her sexuality that comes from years of Catholic School, medical and other issues.

This A of mine, and for SO LONG, destroyed her, and hit her to the core.

But.

My honesty, remorse and contriteness, and my ability to acknowledge what I had done wrong, and what allowed OW in to my life, and my efforts to combat that, let my BS begin to grow again as a woman, mother and partner.

And the SF now in SOOO MUCH better than it was at any other time in the relationship. Before the M, after the M, and before the A.

Because, FINALLY, I had given her 100% on ME. When I gave her that, I finally got 100% of her.

Yes, I got to share something with OW, that used to be special between BS and I. I did that and it was a grave error on my part.

What WE have now, is so far removed, it is amazing.

Krazy, if you want to GO THERE, you can never look at it as if you have to take it on the can.

You already have.

Now its time to go someplace you have never experienced with your W. MB CAN help you with that.

And you will find that the "sexual issues" will disappear rapidly, when your FWW can be honest with you.

Just my .02

LG

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I don't think your best meant nothing.

What she did is not a reflection of your worth.

It was a reflection of her failure as your wife.

Healing is a choice we make, it takes time.

For what it's worth, I think you are expecting too much of yourself and her right now.

You can have it all.

You *just* have to climb that mountain (I know, it sounds so much easier than done). You really ARE enough to do that, it takes a choice and it takes hard work.


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Josie:

It always seemed to me like more of a vent about the continuing pain of the actions of his wife during the affair and his need than how some interpreted it as a demand.

SL:

Your need for affection is just as valid as anyone else's need... I didn't mean to imply otherwise. I like to hold hands too!

Krazy: I can relate to your situation, it is tough. No doubt about it.


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Thank you all for your replies. They mean a lot.

I've never demanded anything from her sexually. If she isn't doing something voluntarily and happily, it means nothing to me. I don't talk about it with her much, because then it would become something she can't do without thinking about our issues.

Last edited by Krazy71; 12/10/07 04:31 PM.

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LG, that was a fantastic post.

Krazy, you can do this. It's ok to be easy on yourself right now and take care of YOU until she is capable of meeting your needs.


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onmywayhome,

Thank you for understanding. I don't want to diminish Krazy's rant in the least, but I would want for him what I want for us all, a truly recovered M, and huge leaps in personal recovery.

Krazy, it's almost PAINFUL to read your rants. I think we all hear you loud and clear.

In my experience on these boards, when I rant, I end up with STELLAR advice, pointing at HOW to get where I want to be. It took me a while to figure out how much of the problem *I* was. I STILL don't feel like it's fair, but it's the reality of infidelity and attempted recovery. As the BS, we choose to walk on those hot coals and endure all that entails.

I chose recovery. Am I damaged? H3LL yes! Partly from the pain and devastation of my spouse's decision to have me suffer, so that he could have pleasure. Partly because one of my worst fears actually came true--REJECTION at the highest level.

I chose recovery not fulling well knowing how much I would have to change and how much more perceived rejection I would have to endure. I sympathize with you.

I also know how good it feels when a poster comes on and shouts from the rooftops that my sense of entitlement is understandable and even to be condoned. It feels good in the moment, but it solves NONE of my problems.

Those posters that came to me and said that my reaction was normal, BUT this would not help me recover, and then went on to thwack me about with 2x4s until I started looking at myself (Mimi, LG, Bramblerose to name a few). THESE people have really helped me.

I can honestly say that I feel much stronger than before I allowed their advice to sink in. It's not because my FWH has done a 180, and is doing EVERYTHING he can to save the M. It's because *I* have done a 180, and am really doing all that I can (outside of getting MC help) to save this M.

Before then, I was angry, resentful, and filled with sorrow over what HE didn't give ME, after all he had done to me.

I long for my husband to touch me like he used to; I long for a time when he confides in me what lurks in his heart and mind. I know I cannot have that without doing it myself.


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For now, I suppose I will do what I've been doing since d-day: Lower my head and plow forward until something changes. I'm not going to get what I want anytime soon, if ever, so there's no need to expect it.

Who needs self-esteem anyway, right? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


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Self esteem comes from within YOU.

You gain esteem by doing esteemable things.

Nothing your wife can do or not do can make you less or more.


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Krazy:

Lower your head and plow?

Until something changes?

Well, "HOWS THAT WORKING FOR YA?"

Not good.

So.

Try something different.

What's the nicest thing you have done for your Wife this week? That she didn't expect, and you didn't demand acknowledgement for?

And if not, what would you do in the NEXT WEEK?

Lets change this sitch, not keep repeating the same mistakes.

LG

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Don't lower your head and press on. No way! Try something different. Try giving your wife one thing, that you know she would like, without thought of reciprocation or huge gratitude. Let it come from your heart. I know this is hard with that huge wall of resentment. It doesn't even have to be grandiose, either, just something that she would appreciate. Help with the kids, a foot rub, talking to her (you start the conversation). I dunno, think about it.

Don't let the affair define your marriage or your wife, or you, for that matter. An affair and a marriage cannot be compared. It's just not apples to apples. What was wrong with the M, and the spouses, prior to, during and after the A DO apply, and should be worked on, IMHO.

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Don't lower your head and press on. No way! Try something different. Try giving your wife one thing, that you know she would like, without thought of reciprocation or huge gratitude. Let it come from your heart.

Interesting. This had me thinking a little.

Consider this - try removing the "expectations" from your beheviours.

Let me try and clarify this a bit.

One of the things my FWW told me that she had trouble with during our recovery was that she felt that I expected her to engage in sex or show affection or do something else when I exhibited certain behaviour (e.g. cuddling, stroking, etc.), and her feeling that I expected her to respond in a certain way took away some of the desire.

On learning about this, I immediately started working on trying to "fix" that particular problem, by changing any of my behaviour that triggers that type of response from her. When I eventually get it right (I'm not quite there yet!), I'm hoping that how she reacts towards me is primarily dependent on what she *wants* to do, rather than what she thinks I expect her to do, particularly wrt intimacy and SF.


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Krazy,

Reread LG's post. It is hitting close to home.

I would like to add that any WS, when they are with the OP can be WHO EVER THEY WANT TO BE!!

They can BE the nastiest and DO the nastiest outlandish things because they can.. and then they see themselves through the OP's eyes and this re-enforces them to become that person . Remember this is all FANTASY!!

She was his piece of meat and was at his beck and call, then when he left, she could return to her real world.

She can NEVER be this way with you. You are her husband and the father of her children. She loves you deeply and wants your love and respect.

Her role with OM was the opposite. He had no respect for her nor she him....and no love. IT WAS FANTASYLAND!

Like LG said, you can get the 100% from her as a loving and giving wife, but you can't have what she had with OM...nor do you want to have it.

I think you need to work on the basic LOVE BANK premise. Fill it to overflowing. Make her feel safe, secure and loved. Which means, like you said, lowering your head and plowing forward. We BSs always are the one's getting the short end.

Believe me brother, I totally understand what you are telling us.

I still have trouble getting my brain wrapped around my FWW's A. When I start trying to, all the ramifications and facets and the movies of the betrayal overwhelm me like imagining the end of infinity, until my heart drops out of my chest.

So maybe we are thinking too much! ? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Plus as someone mentioned earlier, your anger stage is right on time and you are articulating this anger very constructively in this thread. Venting is good and thanks for the thread.

kirk


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I'm the sole breadwinner working a stressful, deadline-oriented job, but I do the dishes frequently and cook a couple times per week. I also make sure to let my W sleep in at least once per weekend, since she has to get up with the little one at night and during the week. I bring home flowers and little gifts that we can afford as often as I can.I also take my son to/from school most days, even though I don't have to, and all the usual home maintenance. I try to do as much as I can.

I receive verbal appreciation for the things I do, but I don't think my W knows how tough it is to feel how I feel and still get it all done. It really does seem like a Herculean effort some days.

I don't have much more to give.


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