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KaylaAndy #2018137 02/02/08 11:14 AM
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Froz - an ideal marriage is where there is mutual respect and power. Kasey learned before we married how the decision making model for our marriage would work. We had a conversation before we married that alarmed me - it was the control freak's model - he would hear my input then he would decide- well that would be fine if I were a child or property, but not as a wife. I told him that I would not participate in such a marriage model. That if we disagreed we'd make it a matter of prayer and NO decision would be made until we both agreed. This prevented any "power-over" behavior.

Harley's principles were easy for us to adopt - especially POJA.

Where you don't feel any autonomy in your marriage - totally depending on his cooperation, you are essentially "property". No wonder he feels free to lie and withhold from you. No wonder he feels no obligation to protect you by refraining from confidences with other women. This dynamic must change if your marriage is to survive, or you are to survive. He may love you but his behavior is killing your spirit.


Cafe Plan B link http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2182650&page=1

The ? that made recovery possible: "Which lovebuster do I do the most that hurts the worst"?

The statement that signaled my personal recovery and the turning point in our marriage recovery: "I don't need to be married that badly!"

If you're interested in saving your relationship, you'll work on it when it's convenient. If you're committed, you'll accept no excuses.
KaylaAndy #2018138 02/02/08 11:34 AM
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Unfortunately Pat reads Froz's private email (which would be ok in healthier circumstances). And he does take steps to bully and threaten her whenever he suspects she's gaining strength and support.

This is an ongoing pattern with him.

I am not going to say more here on the public boards...but let me assure all of you that Dr. Harley is not snowed by Pat.

Froz has grown so much over the years she has been here. All I can say, from what I have seen of Froz, on and off the boards is WOW. She's one heck of lady who has done everything she can to make her marriage work. I have for a long time been very uncomfortable with Pat's abuse (and I do call it abuse). I can tell you she is NOT crazy, NOT vindictive, and has gone to very long lengths to uphold her end of the marriage.

So Kayla, it might be better to speak with her on the phone if she is willing.


~ Pain is a given, misery is optional ~
BrambleRose #2018139 02/02/08 11:40 AM
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Tell you what, BR - I believe you have my email addy because I think I have yours - I'll send you what I was going to share with Froz- and you can pass it on.


Cafe Plan B link http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2182650&page=1

The ? that made recovery possible: "Which lovebuster do I do the most that hurts the worst"?

The statement that signaled my personal recovery and the turning point in our marriage recovery: "I don't need to be married that badly!"

If you're interested in saving your relationship, you'll work on it when it's convenient. If you're committed, you'll accept no excuses.
KaylaAndy #2018140 02/02/08 11:47 AM
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works for me. Thanks K.


~ Pain is a given, misery is optional ~
BrambleRose #2018141 02/02/08 12:28 PM
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Glad you are hanging in there, Froz.

Patriot KNOWS the MB stuff, and he KNOWS that he should not be entertaining any non-business talk from other women.

I work with all men, and from time to time, one of them speaks inappropriately about his wife. For example, I complimented one about something, and he came back with how his wife would never say that, she was mean, blah, blah, blah. Right then I told him it was inappropriate. That nipped it in the bud.

Since Pat seems UNWILLING to take similar precautions, the stakes for recovery go up. He needs to step up to the plate and sign an agreement to give you X amount of dollars towards your son's education. That is the only way I can see that you will feel safer. His talk is cheap.

I'm sure there are all kinds of reasons why he behaves like he does, but that doesn't help YOU recover. If he had never cheated it would be a big red flag, but considering his history, it is SCAREY.

believer #2018142 02/02/08 02:19 PM
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Frozen,
I am so sorry you are going through this. I had no idea that Patriot was still keeping things from you. THAT IS NOT RIGHT and I don't care how long ago it happened. Dr. Harley said to tell the BS everything they need to know and THEN you can move past that IF there is "just compensation" and "extraordinary care".

And I think that Patriot should add your name on the deed to the house. I mean, if he's a BUYER, he would right? I wouldn't feel SAFE that he was buyer without it.

I also agree that if he said he would pay for half of your son's education that he should put that in writing too. Unless he said, "well if we get a divorce I'm not going to help with the education expenses". And well, that would only mean that he doesn't care about your son really. To me if he felt that way, he's IS using that as some kind of manipulation because he KNOWS it scares you and that you'll do just about anything for your son because YOU are a good person. But you don't have to that Frozen. You CAN do this without him.

It might ease your fears a little bit if you talk to a lawyer and see what your rights are should you decide to not live in deception and manipulation anymore.

You have put just as much, if not more, effort into your marriage and you have every right to benefit from that.

I personally don't see him as a "F"WS until he starts being completely honest with you and does what it takes to earn your trust back. I wouldn't feel valued and cherished in this case. His actions speak differently of someone who is a FWS.


Husband was unfaithful to me before and after our marriage, at least 7 times. I found out 13 yrs into the marriage. Trickle truth for an entire year. Several different d-days, so it was more like a d-year. Difficult recovery.



believer #2018143 02/02/08 02:43 PM
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Everyone here is saying what I would say anyways, but from a FWS, what I feel the problems are (as many have stated) emotional immaturity and ego. Anyone who has spent this much time with the Harleys should be well aware of why these control issues and interactions with the opposite sex are inappropriate AND would be aware of the level of pain they have inflicted on their spouse.

The bottom line is that he has been (from what I am reading here) unwilling to let go of his own ego and issues with bad behavior, because he thinks he is entitled to feel that he is IN CONTROL. He is not. In every marriage, not only one where there has been an A, each must let go of these feelings and enter into a POJA setting. It is no longer about control or who should have the upper hand in any decision. If this is not the model of your M after so much work and heartache, then you must consider moving on. You deserve to be cherished and respected as a strong, beautiful woman in every way, shape or form. He should be practicing extraordinary precautions without being asked to do and should do so lovingly and willingly. Instead, he is concerned with consequence versus punishment.

Please trust this from one who has been controlling, judgemental and stubborn in my M. It was so hard to let all that go and be vulnerable. But now that it has happened, I am disgusted by the way I used to be and would not wish to enter back into that mindset for the rest of my life. It is this change of mindset that you are longing for and until it happens, you will be forced with the conflict you are facing now.

I am one who is very strong in faith and belief in God, and that no matter how scared you are, if you are doing the right thing for yourself and for your soul to be strong, God will provide. God doesn't want any of us to live in fear. Many say the opposite of love is indifference, but it ISN'T! The opposite of love is FEAR. "Perfect love casteth out all fear." Fear is what keeps us from being close to God, and love is what draws us closer to Him.

I hope you can find the strength to do whatever you feel is right for your own happiness. We will be here for you!!


Peace,
LaLa

FWW(me) 37
BS 38
DS 9 & 5
PA 7/06-8/06
Dday 2/17/07

Fogapalooza-My Babbly Beginning
My Story
Resonance #2018144 02/02/08 02:50 PM
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Quote:

Instead, he is concerned with consequence versus punishment.






In his effort to make Frozen seem "obsessive" thus making her doubt herself? Gaslighting. I KNOW the behavior.

I agree with Resonance.

Last edited by mopey; 02/02/08 02:51 PM.

Husband was unfaithful to me before and after our marriage, at least 7 times. I found out 13 yrs into the marriage. Trickle truth for an entire year. Several different d-days, so it was more like a d-year. Difficult recovery.



mopey #2018145 02/02/08 08:35 PM
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My heart goes out to you. "You're overreacting" is a classic dismissive statement. Translation: "I judge that I don't have to consider your feelings."

Last month, I happened to pick up a book called: "Why Does He Do That?" by Lundy Bancroft. The subtitle is "Inside the Minds of Angry and Abusive Men." The book was a page-turner for me.

I flipped open the book to find something relevant, and it took about 1 minute to find this: "Certain behaviors and attitudes are definitional of abuse, such as ridiculing your complaints..." (p. 135). The book gave me a lot of insight. I hope that it helps you. No one deserves the treatment you have gotten. No one.

Cherishing

Last edited by Cherishing; 02/02/08 08:36 PM.
Cherished #2018146 02/03/08 04:44 PM
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I don't understand where I have power.

I don't understand where I have control.

Why do I feel like a prisoner? There is a reason that I feel like I can not express my emotions but everyone else can express there emotions AT me.

Lying is wrong, no doubt.

Anyway, I am talking to Kim on Wednesday. Maybe someone would be willing to be an accountability partner for me? Talk on the phone for a bit and see just how full of ****** I am? Through that maybe I could figure something out about being healthy in a relationship.

I don't want to snow anyone. I don't imagine I really could now anyway.

Just a thought. I would like to be healthy in a relationship. I would like to stop hurting my wife.

patriot92 #2018147 02/03/08 05:15 PM
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Patriot, I think it would be a good idea if you posted what you just said on your thread.


Husband was unfaithful to me before and after our marriage, at least 7 times. I found out 13 yrs into the marriage. Trickle truth for an entire year. Several different d-days, so it was more like a d-year. Difficult recovery.



mopey #2018148 02/03/08 07:30 PM
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Pat ~ your wife has been clear with you that she does not want discuss your relationship right now. She's been clear that further discussions will ONLY take place with the Harleys guidance.

Posting on her thread is incredibly disrespectful to her - in addition to being another attempt on your part to manipulate the people who might offer her support and strength.

It's likely your marriage is over. If you want to have ANY chance to save it, you need to drop EVERY single lovebusting behavior. This is your mess. Get off your wife's thread.


~ Pain is a given, misery is optional ~
patriot92 #2018149 02/03/08 07:43 PM
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Quote:

Why do I feel like a prisoner? There is a reason that I feel like I can not express my emotions but everyone else can express there emotions AT me.

Lying is wrong, no doubt.






So, I agree with Bramble Rose on manipulating Frozen's thread.


Frozen,

So.....what *I* hear Patriot saying....... is that he knows lying is wrong but he doesn't think it's fair that people are upset by it. Sounds like he's trying to become the victim.

Does this sound familiar Froz?


Husband was unfaithful to me before and after our marriage, at least 7 times. I found out 13 yrs into the marriage. Trickle truth for an entire year. Several different d-days, so it was more like a d-year. Difficult recovery.



mopey #2018150 02/03/08 07:53 PM
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I don't know that I should try to guess what his statements mean. What he does/doesn't do is what matters to me.

Cherishing, I ordered the book you recommended from the library. Thank you.

Thank you mopey, BR, Kayla, Resonance, believer, and mimi for your support.

frozen1229 #2018151 02/03/08 08:05 PM
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Quote:

I don't know that I should try to guess what his statements mean. What he does/doesn't do is what matters to me.






I agree. However, inaction speaks to me as much as action.

If your H is keeping truth from you, that IS an action so to speak. And if he's on here complaining about "emotions at him" that speaks as well.


Husband was unfaithful to me before and after our marriage, at least 7 times. I found out 13 yrs into the marriage. Trickle truth for an entire year. Several different d-days, so it was more like a d-year. Difficult recovery.



mopey #2018152 02/03/08 09:22 PM
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Quote:

I would like to stop hurting my wife.




Really??? But you need someone to hold your hand and tell you to not do it? I don't know how to say this without appearing to 2 x 4 you...but needing an accountability partner to stop hurting your wife sounds very childish to me. It seems to me that it is all about appearances.

I would strongly suggest that if you truly need that...intensive IC would likely be your first step.

So, what gives you the right to lie to your wife? And if your answer is a simple..."I don't have the right...." then why take away her ability to make decisions about her own life based on truth?

Don't you realize that you should count your lucky stars that Froz even married you after what you did? You didn't deserve her...she gave you a gift and this is how you repay her? Think about how self centered and cruel that is. You owe her nothing less than EVERYTHING.

So, let me ask you...are you still a liar? About what? Would you be willing to truly put that to a test with a polygraph? If not...why not? I mean you have honestly shown yourself to be untrustworthy over a long stretch of time...is there really any reason to believe anything you say at this point?

Look at the difference in recovery between you and TST. What he has done in a few short months is more than you have done in three years.

medc #2018153 02/03/08 09:33 PM
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Quote:

I would like to stop hurting my wife.






Yep. That's what my H just said. So his "solution" is to "go our separate ways".


Husband was unfaithful to me before and after our marriage, at least 7 times. I found out 13 yrs into the marriage. Trickle truth for an entire year. Several different d-days, so it was more like a d-year. Difficult recovery.



mopey #2018154 02/03/08 09:53 PM
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Quote:

Quote:

I would like to stop hurting my wife.






Yep. That's what my H just said. So his "solution" is to "go our separate ways".




Yes. Because "go our separate ways" is easier for him than "change my selfish ways". He'd rather be without you than give up his selfish behaviour. Nothing complicated here.

"I would like to stop hurting my wife" is easy. Both Patriot and your husband know exactly how to do that. But they would rather keep 100% of the control for themselves, so they make THAT the priority instead and the hits just keep on comin'.

"I would like to stop hurting my wife" really means, "I would like for my wife to stop being hurt by what I do."

They are really asking how they can force/bully/guilt-trip/gaslight their wives into not being hurt by their behaviour anymore so they don't have to change anything.

Sad, sad, sad.
Mulan


Me, BW
WH cheated in corporate workplace for many years. He moved out and filed in summer 2008.
Mulan #2018155 02/03/08 09:59 PM
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It's the way it feels and looks to me too Mulan.

And it is sad.


Husband was unfaithful to me before and after our marriage, at least 7 times. I found out 13 yrs into the marriage. Trickle truth for an entire year. Several different d-days, so it was more like a d-year. Difficult recovery.



Mulan #2018156 02/03/08 10:00 PM
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Quote:

"I would like to stop hurting my wife" really means, "I would like for my wife to stop being hurt by what I do."




Bingo.


~ Pain is a given, misery is optional ~
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