I would love to get a couple of opinions on strip clubs being involved in marriages. Here is the story:
When my husband and i were engaged, he went to a strip club overseas (he's in the military). I was very upset that he felt he had to go and watch naked women dance around him while he spent our money for them to do so. He has visited a lot of stip clubs while he was single in the military and sees the strip clubs and strippers as no big deal. I, on the otherhand, see it as a very big deal. I do not see one good thing that can come out of a strip club. Well, he finally saw my side, apologized, said it would never happen again and i left it alone.
Well, we have now been married for five years and three weeks ago i caught him at another strip club. This time i was BEYOND pissed!!! The one thing that most bothered me is that he KNOWS how i feel about this subject and he still chose to go to the strip club. I aked him what happened and he said he just hung out. I then asked if he recieved a lap dance and he said no. I believed him. Then this past weekend i was looking at our credit card bill and found a $152.00 charge from the strip club. I AGAIN went off!!! Now, not only was i mad that he spent $152.00 on a lap dance, but that he LIED to me about it. How would he not think i would find out? I always look at our credit card statements. And thinking about another girl dancing for him half naked (or naked, not sure) is driving me crazy. He again said the strip clubs are no big deal and i had nothing to worry about...that he came home to me. I don't see how he sees it as no big deal when he can see how much it bothers me. We obviously have different views on this subject and thats fine but why did he still choose to do something that he knows upsets me so much. It bothers me that he knew i would be mad and hurt about him going and did it anyways. And i feel betrayed that he has to go to a strange girl to get turned on. I am a pretty attractive thin woman (with breast enhancements) that gets quite a bit of attention from other men when i go out. I would glady give him lap dances daily if he wanted, but he has never asked. We have an amazing sex life. He is a lucky hubby who has sex daily (sometimes twice a day), so I DON"T GET IT!!! Is he right for thinking its no big deal or do i have a right to be mad and forbid him from going ever again?
Any advice on this subject would be great.

Thank you very much!!!

Definitely not ok. He is not working within POJA, is exhibiting Independent Behavior, no matter what it is he's doing. Marriages don't survive that way. Tell him you want marriage counseling, or you'll have to set some sort of boundary for him lying and doing what he said he wouldn't do. Don't make it about the club. Make it about his commitment to the marriage.

You have every right to be angry, upset, and hurt. He has no business in those establishments. It takes a bigger man to walk past them than into them.

And you might ask him why he is willing to disrespect you by going. Why he is so shortsighted to be willing to weaken the fabric of your marriage...his marriage.

And being in the military is no excuse. I am former Navy and one of my best friends was a CB. We had many good times without ever darkening the doorway of such places. And so can your husband. It's all about making better choices regarding the use of leisure time. It is a big deal if for no other reason than you have asked him not to and told him how it makes you feel.

Tell him I said he's a thief and a liar. Every time he goes into one of those pits he steals a little more of your trust and then has to lie to cover the theft.

Personally, it hurts me that he is being so foolish. I hope he will come around and do the manly thing in the near future. For his sake and yours and the wellbeing of your marriage.

My best regards.....

*****************************************

I totally agree w/ cat.
I UNDERSTAND that it feels personal TO you because it's a strip club w/ naked OWs prancing around your H.....but, I don't think he is understanding that at all.
He continually disrespects you by ignoring your concerns so he can have his cake and eat it too.
THAT is a big problem in marriage and the one you need to tackle first.
You do not deserve to be treated w/ that kind of disrespect.
Set some boundaries and if he keeps dismissing you....leave him.

I think you are being an enabler here. I have now doubt he understands. He doesn't care and is being selfish. But he understands.

*************************************

What I don't think he understands is that it IS personal to his wife.....he feels entitled to indulge in sexual fantasy w/ other women and thinks his wife should accept that as a normal part of marriage.

I am not saying he isn't being selfish...it is obvious he cares more about his needs and wants.....he is not good husband material.

Ok. You could be correct. That said, I can't convince myself that he doesn't KNOW his conduct is hurting his wife; doesn't meet with her approval; is detrimental to their relationship. This assumes, of course, he isn't mentally challenged in some way.

An example; I come home having spent the evening at a 'Gentlemen's Club'. Unknown to me my wife had called my office to see when I would be coming home so she could have dinner ready. A coworker lets it slip that I and a couple others were headed out to the club for a few drinks and a little 'entertainment'.

Unless I am six muffins short of a dozen .the moment I see the hurt, anger and disappointment in my wife's eyes, I received the best answer she could give me as to how she feels about what I had done. How it effected her 'personally'.

Were I to repeat my self-centered, selfish act again in the future it wouldn't be in ignorance of what it is doing to my wife, our relationship and ultimately our marriage.

When you say you feel he doesn't understand that it's personal with her....first, I am not sure what you are saying....second, if I could see what you are seeing that I am not , I don't think it would alter his behavior.

When you say you feel he doesn't understand that it's personal with her....first, I am not sure what you are saying....second, if I could see what you are seeing that I am not , I don't think it would alter his behavior.
**************************************

I haven't explained myself well.
It's a touchy subject for me and probably responded too quickly.
I KNOW how personal it feels, but he has depersonalized it..he is trying to make it seem as simple as watching a football game.
I don't think explaining her feelings is going to make any difference to him.
anyway..
I think he knows he's hurting his wife but he has managed to block out her feelings (and his own compassion) so he can gets what he wants.

I don't think he is emotionally mature enough to relate to his wifes feelings of disappointment that way you described.
He is too busy justifying what he thinks he is entitled to.
The only thing I can think of that might alter his behavior would be for her to leave him if he continues to dismiss her concerns the way he has been.

This helps me some to more clearly see what it is you are saying. We are complex beings aren't we.

I don't want to sound scary here but I think it's a deep core personal in question. Maybe as I think on this better words will come.


Yes. It's the damnable nature of pornography. It destroys the sensativity we should develop toward one another as well as the compassion we should cultivate toward the feelings of another. We know it's wrong. Our conscience tells us it is. We tell conscience to mind its own business and eventually our conscience is seared. It stops warning us of the danger. We become calloused. And then like you said, it is seen just as if it were nothing more than a 'football game'.

Pornography is pernicious.

This helps me some to more clearly see what it is you are saying. We are complex beings aren't we.

I don't want to sound scary here but I think it's a deep core personal in question. Maybe as I think on this better words will come.
*********************************

I was thinking the same thing.....maybe I should think on this a bit and better words will come.
I get a little tongue tied when I feel threatened and strip clubs bring back some bad memories for me.

The claim that strip clubs are "no big deal" yet he chooses to go to them knowing how that hurts you makes no sense. What does he mean by "no big deal". If he means it is such a no big deal that he is bored to tears and could take a nap in the club, then why go? By choosing to hurt you, he makes it a big deal. He chooses to pay $150 instead of taking you out on the town in style. He chooses to spend time with other women he does not know instead of being with you. I'm sure his marriage vows included something about honoring and cherishing you. It is a big deal to break that.

If he said, "I know it hurts and I slipped back into a bad habit I formed when I was single and I'm sorry" I would not be so angry. But I don't even know your H and his callous brush off answer ticks me off.

If he still insists on going he needs to own up to his choice and tell you "I know this hurts you very much, but I'm choosing my own pleasure over your needs".

Honestly, you have to set up a strong boundary, i.e. 'You are telling me that your needs are more important than my needs by going. Therefore, I have to protect myself - you stop going to them, or the next time it happens, you will be living someewhere else' But don't do that unless you are willing to kick him out. Sometimes people don't wake up until they lose what they thought was an easy catch.

--4betterorworse--

This is the essesence, I think, of what marriage is to be insofar as mutual exclusiveness is concerned. We channel all of our all toward our chosen companion. At it's best we begin with no prior experience. We enjoy the initial clumsiness and awkwardness and the mutual excitement of discovery. With the passage of time, we learn what each of us enjoys or doesn't. But what we learn and what we discover is ours to keep and share.


For me, the more I think how this was the design and the best path to follow, the more I can see how such things as pornography , so-called 'gentleman's clubs', and prostitution are so destructive; both to the people involved and to those who are sucked in by their false promises. That they have 'been around since the beginning of man' makes them no less pernicious and destructive. Makes them no less indefensible.


Personally, I am sorry you have been wounded and have those memories to contend with. For me that is testamonial enough against any defense of such things. Especially, but not exclusively,they have no valid place in marriage.

If you don't think they are ok, then they are not. YOU have to decide what you will and will not accept in your marriage.

As for forbidding him to go, I doubt that will be a successful approach. If you explain to him how it makes you feel, without AO or DJ, it might work. I can't guarantee that it will, but if you tell him you FORBID it, I can guarantee it won't.

********EDIT**********

*********EDIT*************

As for forbidding him to go, I doubt that will be a successful approach. If you explain to him how it makes you feel, without AO or DJ, it might work. I can't guarantee that it will, but if you tell him you FORBID it, I can guarantee it won't.
*******************************************

It sounds to me like she has tried to explain how she feels and he dismisses her.
Actually, I think it is time for her to forbid him to go.....but, she has to be willing to walk away from the marriage if he continues to ignore and disrespect her.

********EDIT************

You might be right. I agree that if she does forbid him, she should be ready to walk away. Telling someone what they can and cannot do will usually result in defiance.

*********EDIT********

Stop the personal attacks!

Telling someone what they can and cannot do will usually result in defiance.
******************************

We are talking about marriage here...
How do you feel about adultery?

If your wife said, "I forbid you to get a lap dance because it = adultery to me"..... would you defy her?

If my wife said that to me, I would not go because the lap dance is of no importance to me, and it's clearly important to her.

Turn it around. Suppose I said to my wife, "You cannot have a conversation with X, because to me, conversation with X = adultery." Should she relent because I forbade it, or am I just being a selfish jerk? In other words, do I OWN her behavior? It's an open question, not rhetorical.

Keep in mind, I am not trying to compare a conversation with a man to a lap dance, but I am talking about the act of forbidding someone to do something. I see that as the end of negotiation. Of course *I* believe that at some point, negotiation has to end, and either there is a mutually agreeable solution, or the two part ways.

Is this the time for the end of negoatiation? I have no idea.

In Marriage Builders you never make demands but you do express that you are uncomfortable with XYZ situation. Since your spouse must care for your feelings, he will not do it. It is not in Joint Mutual Enthusiastic Agreement.

If you express how you are hurt and how you fear and feel infidelity that is very good for your relationship with your spouse. Otherwise you are in a Giver situation and that is no good. Your spouse must not do it if it hurts you.

So do you think that one must cede to all requests from a spouse? Or just those that he/she feels strongly about? Is it possible that a request/demand is too much to ask?

Are we talking about just refraining from behavior?

Greatly depends upon whom 'X' is as to what label might be attached to conversation with 'X'.

To a certain extent a spouses behavior is 'owned' by the other. Anyone not willing to relinquish 'ownership' in this sense, shouldn't get married.

In marriage, two become one. You can no longer act independently, you are now a couple.

You must take your spouse's feelings into account in everything and your spouse's yours.

Saying that you are uncomfortable should be enough.

Let me see ?? My answer is 'YES', it is possible. Was I correct?

********EDIT*************

Actually, in Marriage Builders, it is the policy of Joint Enthusiastic Mutual Agreement that takes precedence on every thing, small and large, and not just behavior but also goals and friendships, jobs, and careers, family and X girl friends etc. It is not a question of ceding but of reaching an agreement or to do nothing until one is reached.

I’ve seen that but I don’t really think something should be too much to ask. Remember, the idea is to both be in love with one another.

For example asking to stop seeing a mother in law that is disrespectfull. That is not too much.

Like what then?

I can't disagree, that should be the way it works.

I suppose I got hung up on the word forbid. It seems like an approach doomed to failure.

I can't imagine telling my wife that I forbid her. But she doesn't cross any of my boundaries.

I think purpose of this thread has been forgotten.

Extremely unusual.

********EDIT*********

I suppose I got hung up on the word forbid. It seems like an approach doomed to failure.

I can't imagine telling my wife that I forbid her. But she doesn't cross any of my boundaries.
**************************************

I can understand that the word forbid would rub you he wrong way.
It doesn't have a place in a good marriage because neither partner wants to do anything that would harmful to the relationship.


But suppose your wife wanted stay out all night and party w/ other men?...
and then dismissed your concerns and complaints and told you that it was entertainment for her and she deserved it even if you find it offensive.

Maybe you would be ok with that, I can't be sure by your responses....but, your analogy about talking to other men and lap dances doesn't make much sense to me.....You continually try to take the SEX part out when you are discussing women........ romance vs. porn, talking vs.lap dance.....I think you might be doing yourself a disservice by thinking your wife as a just a romantic being but not a sexual one.

Sigh. I do seem to have trouble expressing myself. I just had a red flag with the word forbid. Perhaps if you ignored everything else I said, it would make more sense.

Sigh. I do seem to have trouble expressing myself. I just had a red flag with the word forbid. Perhaps if you ignored everything else I said, it would make more sense.
********************************
gotcha.
I have a problem w/t he word lapdance, I think I understand where you are coming from.

********EDIT*********

ItCouldHappen, you will cease personal attacks on this board.

Thank you very much Cat for your advice. We have had numerous conversations about this subject lately and everyday it seems he has a better understanding of how strong i feel about this and he feels bad. He actually said he was going to counseling, that he wants to better himself, and i can go with him if i wanted. I of course am going to go but there is still this lingering feeling of deception, dissapointment, anger, etc. that i am feeling. I can forgive him but i know i will never forget and i'm afraid we will never be the way we were.

What you have said is good news. Tell him there are people here who are cheering for him. Nudge him gently but firmly until he has followed though with what he has said he'd do.

He is a fortunate man to have both your love and your willingness to forgive him. If your love is strong enough it will overcome the fear you have of not being the same as once your were. In a very real sense you will be better than before in that you have survived a hurricane together. God bless you and I sincerely hope the progress is abundant and the setbacks few and far between if there are to be any. One day at a time. And make every minute count.

Thank you very much for you well wishes. I told him i am scared and he said if i didn't see a change in him like he promised, i should then decide whether or not to stay with him. I really feel deep down in my heart that he is sincere and wants to grow a greater relationship with God and be a better husband. I told him i was afraid our marriage would never be as great as it was and like you, he said if anything it is only going to be better and stronger. I have faith that it will. Thanks again to you and everyone else who helped me through this huge bump in my marriage. I am very glad i found this marraige website and will continue to learn from it and all who communicate here.

Is this the first time in that 5 yrs that he has done this?..Yes it matters..


This is the part that sticks out in my mind..He told you he would not visit the establishments, he does again (once in 5 yrs)BUT he did in fact lie about it. When asked he should have been honest.

Stipping is a sexual favor.
Stripping for money from strangers is prostitution.

Referring back to the original topic, I believe it depends on the relationship, and therefore is not a question that has a firm yes or no answer. Some couples feel it is okay for their partner to frequent strip clubs, some even go together. In your particular case? No, I do not think it is okay. This question goes beyond the simple strip club or no strip club topic, and into respect for one another. If your husband understands that you are not comfortable with it, then he shouldn't be going... simple. On the other hand, this topic is listed under negotiating... so you might sit down and talk with him about ways to give and take on both sides. Although they don't seem to be a big deal to him, he obviously wants to go. Perhaps you could agree to it, so long as you go with him? He might be a little uneasy with this at first, but if you are able to go along and make it a point to have a good time, and not make things awkward, he will enjoy having you there and look forward to bringing you along next time. This would solve almost all of your listed concerns. It would eliminate the lap dances, he will be too concerned with getting YOU home and obviously wouldn't go in the back room with another girl if you are there. Also, you will be able to control how much of your money he is pouring into the joint. Just a suggestion, but remember, marriage means give and take for both parties. Every now and then you have to step out of your comfort zone and into his, just as he does for you. Good luck! ***edit******

I seriously doubt she's the type of woman that could have fun at a strip club. I certainly wouldn't have fun watching my wife stare at mostly naked men.

But anyway, I don't think POJA should go as far as to require a spouse to compromise their morals. It's suppossed to be a win-win.

I couldn't agree with you more, marriage is supposed to be a win-win. He stops going to strip clubs, and she wins... but what about him? ABSOLUTELY don't get me wrong and think I'm saying it's okay for him to go when she does not approve, or that she HAS go with him. In no way do I encourage it if she truely believes that it would be compromising her morals, that was just one suggestion. But, he is obviously not getting something in the relationship that he needs, and like it or not, she (and he) needs to look beyond the anger and find the underlying issue. I am saying this assuming that they have a loving relationship and he truely does care that she doesn't want him to go, which I'm assuming he does if he is hiding it (if they don't, then that is an issue for another post). Perhaps just increasing the amount of intimacy within their marriage would do the trick.

Okay, I just had to say, Yuck!

There is pretty much only one reason to go to a strip club and that is to see the girls naked in a legal environment. the couple of times I've ever been to one, I've never known them to runa cc tab for the tips you give girls, they took cash only. It's very possible that he was picking up the bar tab. If he is going because that's where his friends are then he should probably find a different time to enjoy thier company. If he is going because of the girls, then there is a larger problem that needs to be addressed and that is which EN is he seeking to fullfil? Most likely it's sexual and admiriation. These are things that she might try to turn up a little bit and get her husband to quit going to the clubs.

If you are looking for a win-win solution, how about letting him know how you feel about the clubs and ask that he not go back any more. If he's looking for time with his buddies, let them come to your place (football season is coming back) If he's looking for something more sexual, how about giving him a lapdance in the privacy of your own bedroom. It would cost alot less and may lead to something else that you would both enjoy

I just don't think it works that way when it comes to strip clubs or any kind of porn. I wouldn't say that his going to strip clubs is a sign of a lack of intimacy, necessarily. It could be that all his buds go and he wants to feel included.

I think he would get his win by having a wife that trusts him.

There is pretty much only one reason to go to a strip club and that is to see the girls naked in a legal environment. the couple of times I've ever been to one, I've never known them to runa cc tab for the tips you give girls, they took cash only. It's very possible that he was picking up the bar tab. If he is going because that's where his friends are then he should probably find a different time to enjoy thier company. If he is going because of the girls, then there is a larger problem that needs to be addressed and that is which EN is he seeking to fullfil? Most likely it's sexual and admiriation. These are things that she might try to turn up a little bit and get her husband to quit going to the clubs.

If you are looking for a win-win solution, how about letting him know how you feel about the clubs and ask that he not go back any more. If he's looking for time with his buddies, let them come to your place (football season is coming back) If he's looking for something more sexual, how about giving him a lapdance in the privacy of your own bedroom. It would cost alot less and may lead to something else that you would both enjoy

Wow, your first post and you are already dishing TERRIBLE advice. Were you aware that this is a Marriage Builders website, based on Christian principles?

They will take a cc tab. For one thing, a saleman entertaining clients need a receipt.


Maybe it's just me, but I don't know if the lapdance is a good idea. I mean, sure it'd be great and I would appreciate it personally, but I imagine a lot of wives might feeling as though it's not very intimate.

it's been about 8 years since I've been so I'm using old experiences


the intimacy obviously would come after the dance. we've done a few at home years back and both enjoyed them, the wife was able to act uninhibitly sexy and makes for great foreplay and I was not allowed to touch until she said so.

this was just a suggestion for the op, if she feels like it's something she's comfortable with in private

I guess it's one of those things you'd have to approach carefully. I mean, I don't think you can just ask your wife for a lapdance, it has to be her idea, or atleast your answer after she asks what she could do for you.

I apologize, as I thought this was a place for people to go that were in need of advice and honest answers. As a Christian myself, I understand that in todays world an open, honest, and understanding relationship is extremely important in order to survive the obstacles placed in front of happy marriages everyday.

I am not here to argue with you or anyone else, I am here to offer MY opinion to those who ask for it, leaving them the option to take it or leave it. I am not here to argue religion with you either... why? Because it is against my religion... but you should know that already, right??

So, I leave you with a bit of advice...
"You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things."
Romans 2:1

Advice threads aren't the place to throw around personal opinions. There are discussion threads for that. Advice threads are on how to work the MB concepts. Which doesn't include visits to these places.

I do not see how going to strip clubs could be conducive to the building of your marriage. If it does not build your marriage, if you wouldn't want to be seen by your child's teacher, if you wouldn't want your father-in-law to know, you probably should stay away.

Thank you for clarifying that for me, open_ears. I suppose I was just a bit steamed after the last post accusing me of not holding Christian values, especially after reading some of the threads that poster has placed, that I felt the need to defend myself. Perhaps I was out of line in posting the previous thread in this particular forum. Again, thank you for addressing it in a respectful manner.