So far cat it's getting interesting. I have some intial thoughts on it all and how it might have took on it's own meanings in our relationship from the start and grew into our marriage. I'll save those thoughts as just thoughts until I'm finished with the book though. Way too soon into it to make harsh reality of it.

I'd like nothing more to save the marriage still. I have to look at the "reality" though that I now feel it was not attainable. I'll start to come into my own though and go from there.

We've had folks here who do reconcile after their divorce.

Would you consider that the old "You gotta accept reality. You can't do it." is sometimes an outcome-based choice, rather than one from your code?

Your choices remain the same as they were weeks ago. What you do and say this coming Tuesday is up to you. Unless you choose what you will do or say on odds, probability of outcome.

Watch where you're watching...hear your own stinkin' thinkin'...because the whole course of acting to your goal wasn't about whether or not the marriage could be saved...it was really about you doing everything possible, with a lot of new knowledge, so that whatever the outcome, you would have that.

Hence, you were choosing your own results.

We cannot control outcomes; we choose our results.

Don't sabotage yours so that only in retrospect, you see where you didn't act from your code, to your own goal, and know that horrible regret again...that seeping remorse...because that helplessness will be real...can't change the past.

Which is your present.

LA

To me I never had the choice or chance (doesn't mean I did or didn't just simply means that I feel there was too much for me to personally be able to sort thru in my head to come to any type of rational thinking on my part). Thats all in the past and I can't change that. I won't try to change tuesday based on my choice of code now. She needs to do what she feels she needs to do and I have made my stance very clear. For me to delay it would be manipulating thee outcome IMO.


I won't be going tuesday. I choose that only because I no longer want to hurt the person I love and my attendance would do just that.

I feel a lot has been misinterpeted and/or misunderstood thru all of this. Doesn't place blame. Misunderstood or misinterpeted can be improper communication on either part or a combination of both. I feel it's still happening.

There's a lot more that goes into all this then everyone thats reading these posts understands and/or knows. Not placing blame or taking away. I feel what I feel and it's as "simple" as that.

I don't understand...your belief at the time was that you didn't have the choice or the chance...to what, reconcile? Are you talking about February?

Because that's not in the past, really...you're still separated, she's divorcing you...and your choices NOW remain in the present.

If you do not agree to the divorce, and I recall you saying you would tell the judge that you don't agree, want time to work out possible reconciliation; then do so.

That would be acting to your code...speaking honestly and letting go the outcome.

Your wife has always done what she's done...she's doing. Doesn't change what you do. Do not base your choices on hers in this regards...respect she is doing. You don't know if she will withdraw the petition Monday or Tuesday, or ask for a delay for reconciliation possibility or not. All you know is that she loves you. And her choice to divorce and love you at the same time is hers.

Yours is to act from your choice to love her, desire to honor your marriage. That's not manipulating the outcome...because YOU AREN'T that powerful.

All of the controlling, withdrawing, manipulating you did...did not control the outcome. The outcome came. You're dealing with outcomes all the time. You are a limited human being--welcome to our club. We have no control, are not the cause or cure for outcomes.

They just come. Because everyone involved in the outcome had choices, took actions...which is why you can't be responsible for all of it. Just your part.

Could it be you like betraying yourself? That's your comfort zone, your desire for that fantasy blamelessness?

Listen to yourself...you aren't dangerous, bad or wrong. You're ezb...worth listening to, understanding and embracing. Do so with honesty, respect and love...your code.

Give yourself consideration, attention and the raw ownership of what you've done separate from who you are.

Our actions result from a lot of forethought...even our impulsive actions. Those come from secret permissions we give ourselves long before the event comes that we react to...just feels thoughtless.

Breathe deeply, in and out, relax your body so it can help you be clear on what you're really doing...so you can see how your self-manipulation is your own torment...and it's undeserved, useless and harmful to you.

LA

What stinkin' thinkin' is this?

Seriously...you believe your presence representing your half of the marriage would hurt your wife? She may feel embarrassment, shame, guilt, pain--we often do when we enforce final boundaries. Your self-negation may be the biggest darn LB you do in your life, to everyone...and yes, that may HURT your wife the most.

So don't do it.

Sit and ponder how much blame-shifting has gotten you in this life...is it worth it, to live in that fantasy? By doing so, are you not training your brain to NOT hand you reality, which bites? I thought you wanted to end your fantasy thinking as the persistent perspective you've been trapped in.

That was my perception...because it was my deepest desire.

You remain responsible for your misunderstanding and misinterpreting. What you infer gives you your life experience of others. That's your real power. You can infer with fantasy or reality...you can infer with fear or respect. Only you can know the difference.

Stop miscommunicating with yourself...only way to stop miscommunications with others. Respect other people have their own filters...and leave theirs alone. Focus on yours. See where you twist, shade, distort information...trace that choice to the fear behind it. Get to it.

You aren't one iota as frightening as you think.

Your choice to stay focused on others's stuff is a sure way to NOT know and own yours. Shake your head violently, side to side, to clear out what you trained your brain to focus on your whole life. Get clear on your awareness, has to be on high, to KNOW where your focus is...and when it's on where you have no power, then you're in fantasy, 'k?

Reality is where you have your power and limits. Retrain your brain. Begin right now. List your human powers and limits, and then you will be centered in reality. Staying there is a trick...our focus will sneak over again and again to where we have no power (no control, cause or cure) into others' backyards...their perspective, their judgments, their filters.

Biggest distraction from greatness is DISTRACTION.

Stop being distracted. Save yourself.

God's pulling for you.

LA

I want you here because I love you. Because all the reasons I love you are inside and outside of you still. I want this marriage because I believe it hasn't had the chance to get to that 3rd stage love and because I know it can. I was waiting for and wanting that, I just didn't know the actions that it took to get there and there were too many other elements interfering with that. You and I both know the love we want. You and I both know we were on our way to it. You and I both know now life and love is not a fairy tale. It's what you make it that really counts and who I want to make it with is you. Those changes in me to correct that are here, waiting for you, wanting you. There will be bumps yes, but the understanding in how and how not to handle those bumps is so much greater now.

LA I hear you and thank you. I'll be reading your last 2 posts a few times this weekend.

LA,


I hope you stay on this site forever. There's one major thing I have noticed on these threads. The positive is you IMHO. You give no judgements, make no assumtions based on a few posts about who or what a person is and your advice is objective and realistic. Now my comments have nothing to do with shame and I respect the fact that some people on here have been around awhile and have "heard it all" (actually seen a bunch of typing really) but others tend to make judgements based on very small facts in history (yes there's much more to this) and nowhere close to the big picture. There's always seems to be a victim and a villian with certain posters and there's no bones made about it. It's ironic how judegments in fault are so very easily made. Now I'm not saying all this to take any heat off or blame away or to make my self look good or others bad I just think it's sad when people don't take the time to know whole stories before they shoot off and start name calling and blame slinging just because they think they have a little experience in "real life problems". Are posts really "real life problems"? Can anyone give a real history of events in a few paragraphs? I highly doubt it.

These are real peoples lives folks. You might think you know people by a few posts and a couple threads but come on and get off the high horse and realize that advice given effects real peoples lives. Your history and experience does not give you a doctorate to name call and tell people what they should or shouldn't do with their lives. Now I respect experience and knowledge but each situation is not like the last or the previous others just because words on a post look "similiar".

There is so much more to all this then any of you know or have cared to ask. To pick the villian and trash them and to support the victim based on little perceptions of history is ludicrous to say the least. Now I know I don't use the best communication by far but think people before you react and start telling people what they should do with their lives. Remember you have nothing invested in their future and that what you say could really hurt more then help.

I've been called a "con man" and it's been said I tried to manipulate people on these boards into thinking swinging wasn't adultery. This is slanderous to say the least. I never tried to con anyone nor did I try to manipulate any people on these boards into thinking swinging wasn't adultery. All I have done is stated my beliefs and views. If that doesn't agree with someone else's then I certainly wouldn't start calling them names because of it. Thats just down right sad that someone could do that and then turn around and give someone advice on what they should do with their lives. Now I know I know I'm only getting defensive and trying to manipulate and con and your allowed that opinion thats fine but I'm also allowed my opinion and beliefs also. I'm not the one trying to convince anyone of anything though so take a good look ...... at yourself.....I'm doing the same.


Thanks.

No offense intended cat but.....

I would like to see the posts that I have said or implied I'm telling myself how virtuous I'am and what a loving husband I have been and how i tried to give her all she wanted. I can't seem to find those could you help please?

The thing is, you are on am ANTI-adultery, marriage building site. So it's ludicrous to accuse us of "judging you" as it it's a bad thing, when you defend or minimize the adulterous practice of swinging.

God gives us all a moral compass, and a measure of discernment. He expects adults to be able to judge right from wrong.

As I told you, I was assuming that based on HOW you write. I believe I also said I may be wrong, but that I have seen others here who write the same way and such has been the case with them. I asked you to consider the possibility that you may be deluding yourself, as we all do to some extent, by not asking yourself the hard questions.

I realize this is a horrible weekend for you. But for the most psrt, people who've been posting to you have done so in the hopes that you can benefit from our experience or our learning. My learning is in psychology, and the way you were writing is, IMHO, fake - to us and to yourself. Fake doesn't get your wife back. Humbleness and acceptance do. So I thought you'd want to consider all avenues. One of which is that you are so busy telling yourself how hard you're trying, that you're not realizing you're not. JMO

At certain points you have and haven't stated you may be wrong. I've asked myself a lot of hard questions thru all of this. I've admitted my faulty actions and admitted that I continue to learn and have more yet to learn. I've also admitted, truthfully, that I love my wife very much and I did not show or give that love the way I should have, the ways I know now how to.


How em I not trying? Going to counseling, coming here on a daily basis, reading books daily to help improve myself, every time my wife has expressed a concern I address it immediately, learning how to love her the way she needs and wants and so many more things. The original post in this thread came about because my wife asked me to think about how she felt when I did certain things. I didn't just think about em, I listed them out and devoted myself to concentrating on them so they wouldn't slip to the back of mind but stay forever burned as a memory and guidance for the future (a permanent change not just thinking).

Lets converse but know that I'm being real and truthful and not just a fantasy. Lets converse but know that it's impossible for all the facts to be known without much deeper digging and not just hard questions directed towards just me and lackadasical (I need a dictionary lol) ones asked of her.

I have a deep love for my wife. Did I show that love correctly? No I didn't. Was I half the marriage during it's full time? Yes I was. Did I learn to control and manipulate my wife and marriage? Yes I did. Em I learning how to correct that and place it into daily practice? Yes I'am.

We both went into this marriage with a third stage love attitude. That was totally impossible to expect from the start. It was expected to be a fairy tale the whole time, by both of us to start. Thats impossible. Even fairy tales have witches and dragons. It takes mistakes and learning and correcting to reach that third stage love. It takes years of it. We both know the type of people we really are and we both know that lies inside us. Do we all lose sight of that from time to time? Yes we do and mistakes were never made then sites like this would have no need.

I've gained knowledge from what you and many others have posted and I'am grateful and I thank you and others for that. I have put into practice quite a few things and I will continue to learn.


Edit: This is a very hard weekend for us both I'm sure. I have been wanting to spend them together, helping and learning.

My question was never answered? I have found the posts where I have admitted my guilt in the marriage and the bad things I have done.

I will go no further in addressing this subject and I'am in no way shape or form saying it did or didn't have anything to do with it or to any extent either way but just to make people stop and realize there are so many things unknown was anyone of you aware that in all this there is a professionally diagnosed condition involved here?

No blame placed and non taken away. I have owned mine and will continue to do so.

Have you previously told us there is a professionally diagnosed condition? Hpw can we be expected to help with advice when you are leaving out huge chunks of information?

Keep,

Thats exactly my point. There is so much that is not known here and yet advice on what to do is given?

This isn't my condition we're talking about here so does that show where my focus has been with all of posts? Does that show that inspite of anything else I'm trying to improve my half and own up to mine? Does that show that I'm actually trying to focus on me and my problems instead of blame shifting and manipulating people on the boards?

I didn't bring that up because my focus has been on improving ME in so many ways my head has been spining. What do I think MY condition is though? I believe I have a destructive compulsive disorder and I will address that.

I believe also we both could benefit from reading the book Codependant No More. I believe anyone can benefit from reaading that book though and anyone could label themselves codependent in one way, shape or form.

I do realize that there are many things we do not know. I guess my point is, that we can only go on what we are being told.

I've been part of forums where a lot of time is spent trying to walk someone through a situation, only to find out that pertinent info was being withheld. Also, I've experienced people posting asking for help or advice, then become angry when people reply with answers that seem unsatisfactory, saying "You don't know the full story."

We can only work with what you or Bunny tell us. Do you understand what I am trying to say? It is hard to put together a puzzle with many pieces missing!

I know exactly what your saying and it's exactly my point. Do you honestly think though that if i would have brought up some things that it wouldn't have been viewed as blame shifting or manipulating?

Does this not say I have been owning mine and talking about MY problems in order to correct them (and then the whole time being told I'm not)?

Here's something in the book I'm book I'm reading I would like to share:


"When people with a compulsive disorder do whatever it is they are compelled to do, they are not saying they don't love...they are saying they don't love themselves."

There's another point also. Should you really be giving advice or should you just be giving guidance? There's a HUGE difference with a huge different outcome in people's lives.