No I don't have a timeline. That is one thing that worries me also.

My energy level is mid-to low right now. I am trying to be positive, under the circumstances. I know at some point I will have to make a move, but when are you ever prepared? I don't know how much longer I can do this, it is really hard right now, but I just don't know.

I'm sure I have done plenty of lovebusters. I try not to, but it's hard to identify them sometimes until afterwards. I'm working on not being judgmental, and I have curtailed that pretty well the last 2 weeks.

She is being very withdrawn and wounded right now. I pretty much can tell she broods over him and misses all their chats. She sometimes lashes out and is mean, but usually it's when I force the issue, and she is very cutting in her remarks.

Hmmmm....hopefully others can help you out a bit with what may help and words that can help YOU get threw her withdrawal stage.

Setting a deadline for Plan B may actually give you more energy. It's hard to continue when there is no end in sight.

You can only continue this way for so long - your energy will slowly deplete and you will be left with nothing.

My suggestion would be to consider a 180. Continue to work on yourself, do something to replenish your strength when you need it.

For now, don't force the issues. Let her get through withdrawal and begin to take notice of what is around her.

Don't allow the meanness. Only engage her when she is being respectful to you. When she is not - do a 180. Disengage and go on about making a good life without her.

Your life doesn't have to STOP while you are waiting for her.

Hopefully, some FWW will come back and tell you what worked for them.

In the meantime, prepare for Plan B. Talk to a lawyer and start protecting yourself.

Fox

Dude,

You need a plan. First, find a GOOD lawyer, it will cost you more to find a cheap or bad lawyer. Then find out the laws in your state, issues about custody, separation agreements, etc. Then and ONLY THEN do you make plans. You need to have yourself protected, you need to protect your child, and if you are going to try and save this marriage, you need more than waiting for her to decide your fate.

Get to a lawyer now. She is apparently going through withdrawal, but you would be very foolish to assume that contact won't resume or leave your family unprotected legally.

God Bless,

JL

yep.

Agreed with all of the above, for SURE...but I also wanted to post the section of the site where Dr. Harley writes about WD. I hope it helps!


You should continue to snoop to ensure NC is in place. You should watch her like a HAWK, actually, because she will be very tempted to make contact. As gross as it sounds, her pain is very real, too, so don't waste your time with things that won't work, and just be SURE that NC stays in place. That's all you can do for now (other than see a lawyer and KNOW YOUR RIGHTS!!)

I have a question about the EN questionaire. We both filled it out and I question some of hers. Since she is in withdrawal, I was leery about filling these out anyway.

Her no 1 need is affection. Which is strange, since I always get rebuffed over the years. She noted that she wanted more txt messages, calls, etc. Bleh.

Her no 2 need was recreational companionship. You got it, this is more important than 8 of the others. Even after I reiterated the importance factors. She wants to go and do things, despite our finances, and this is a top need of hers. We go and do plenty of things together, but she wants someone who is the life of the party, or someone who tells all the jokes and garners attention. This could be a confidence issue with me or just a personality issue. I've never been an attention junkie, so I'm fine sitting back watching someone else be a fool.

Her no 3 need is conversation. This one I can understand and I can work on this.

Her no 4 is admiration. I also understand this and I have had trouble with this in the past. But, this is workable.

Her no 5 is Sex, and no problems there.

Her no 6 is open and honesty. I have more problems with openness than honesty. This one is probably the easiest for me to fix.

7= Attractive spouse - covered
8= Family Commitment - covered
9= Domestic Support - covered
10- Financial Support - covered

I am still frustrated by her no 2. To me, that one is way down the list. I think she misinterprets, but she swears not. Has anyone had a spouse fill this out and put such an emphasis on recreational companionship?

Also, how do you get past knowing that this is just a comparison between you and OM?

This is a question I need an answer to as well. Thanks for asking it. Not trying to T/J, and I hope you don't mind, dude...maybe you can relate to my sitch and I hope you can get the answers you need too.

Any time I try to focus on W's ENs all I can think is..."is this how OM did it for her?"..."is she comparing the way I do it to the way he did?". How does a BS possibly compete with the "fantasy" that OP created for WS (or vice versa), in the subject of ENs? From the BS pov, OP had the luxury of being able to meet these needs without any fear of recourse if he didn't meet the needs, because (let's face it) this "fantasy" world the WS had conjoured up would definately make looking past OPs mistakes much more easy than looking past ours.

From a psychological aspect, that being her #2 would tell me that she doesn't want to stand still, because standing still would require looking at herself. I would guess that she's been unhappy with herself pretty much all her life, so she has learned to put on a fake self that she feels will get her what she wants/needs. She probably doesn't even KNOW who she really is, if she's been doing this for a long time. Especially after what's happened now, she won't want to look at herself.

So what's the best way to avoid that? Keep busy! Have fun! Be gay and happy! More fake self!

IMO, she may want that, but it isn't helpful.

That said, if you really want to try to appease her, I can give you tons of ideas on how to have fun on the cheap, if you want.

Did she say what she would like to hear from you in these calls and text messages? Calls and text messages, to me, are more conversation rather than affection. Depending on what is said.

Maybe she just wants to know you thought of her througout the day. Maybe she's just looking for a "connection" to you when you are apart.

I think our needs shuffle sometimes. What we don't feel we are getting becomes our Number One need. Then that is met and another one sacrificed because the most important need is getting met first. Then what we sacrificed for the Number One need BECOMES the Number One need - it's a vicious cycle.

Have you ASKED her if she intentionally rebuffed you, explain to her that you FELT that way, and what she would have preffered you do instead of what you did.


I'm like this too. Rather watch the fools than BE one of the fools.

I, too, LOVE recreational companionship. I absolutely LOVE to share the laughter, the exhileration, the exhaustion, and the relaxation before, during, and after recreational companionship. It's a different kind of closeness - more emotional for women to share of OURSELVES and not feel like someone is after our bodies - but our minds and who we really ARE inside.

Finances DO make this hard. But there are MANY things that can be done on limited finances. Brainstorm - both of you sit and come up with ideas on what you could do together that would not break the bank. She might surprise you.

She does need to be reasonable about your financial situation and not expect you to entertain her all the time. She has a part in this too. Get her involved in the planning. If she comes up with an idea of what she wants to do - ask her how she would go about getting this done, what can be sacrificed so that you are able to go, etc.?

Whatever you CAN dole out financially for a little RC is MUCH cheaper than a divorce.

Look around the web in your area, be open-minded and try some new things.

My town has Alive @ Five every Wednesday night. No charge to attend, you can bring your own food and drinks. Various bands play, there are vendors selling items, etc. I've never been to it - but I know it's out there and have been curious.



Ask her SPECIFICALLY what makes her feel admired, give her some options on what YOU think cause someone to feel admired - maybe hers are different. Some are givens, but you'll want to do the ones that cause the BIGGEST deposits in her lovebank.


Recreational companionship does not mean you have to be the life of the party.

I wonder if this isn't her trying to escape into a crowd so she doesn't have to deal with what is right in front of her.

What did you do at the beginning of your relationship that you enjoyed together recreationally?


It is a comparison between you and a FANTASY. What she pretends in her mind that OM was. He failed miserably.

OM isn't worth your thoughts.

Can you improve the person YOU are regardless of what others are or are not?

Fox

Just caught cat's quote. I agree with this 100%

Recreational companionship is high on both mine and Dh's EN list. I see RC as how you spend your 15 hours a week together. I never considered it being the life of the party. Plan some fun things to do and invite her. She may come, she may not. Say yes to things that she wants to do, even if it they are out of your comfort zone. You may surprise yourself.

You must have some shared interests. You fell in love and got married didn't you? Renew some of those. That is how DH and I fell back in love after his A. We made a serious conscious effort to do things together. After awhile, I found it didn't even matter what we did as long as we were together.

Work on you. Exercise, renew your old interests, improve your outlook on life, renew your relationship with God. Be the best that you can be. It will make you feel so much better about yourself, about life, about your situation. If worse comes to worst, you will be a better person to meet someone new someday if Rain can't find it within herself to do what is best for her marriage and her family.

You are both in my prayers.

Say

She has always been this way. Never happy unless you are doing something. I think it was ingrained by her parents and interpreted by her this way. I get frustrated with her because she never stops and analyzes us, always on the go. Whereas I need some downtime and reflection time, and am very analytical.

Thanks.

I can see where I haven't done a good job in trying to meet this need, I think. I have been a little to hard-lined on paying off debts, so I think of going out and doing things more of a nuisance than a fun time. She doesn't or refuses to understand my stance on this also. She is always go go go, and I am always no no no. She is frustrated by my lack of planning and attention, but I am frustrated by the debts we have incurred. I look at her incessant need for doing something as a disrespectful judgment, and I need to lighten up a bit. We have fallen into a rut where she just plans things herself while I go along in tow unhappy about it. I had cut off all my friends and pretty much just shut down as a living person. I am bound and determined to change this though. I feel like a train moving in a positive direction and she won't jump on.

As a caveat, the past 6 months I have lightened up and done a ton more going out on the weekends with her. Taken our son to his grandparents, etc. The problem now is that she doesn't have fun with me. She looks at the recreational companionship as actually doing something and who you're doing it with. So, since her EA has been full blown the past 6 months, I have been fighting a losing battle on this need comparatively speaking. But in the past, yes it was a miserable thing. I had been through a previous affair and over 100K in gambling debt losses and I wasn't much in the mood for going out. I had a serious trust issue with her and our money that I still have not gotten over. I think if she was more willing to sit at home and suffer along with me it would have made me feel better about the whole thing, but she hasn't. Is that wrong?

No, it isn't. {{{dude}}}

Remember, dude, this can't be fixed overnight. It took a while for it to get to where it is and it will take a while to get out of it.

Keep making the improvements.

Look around and get a good grasp on POJA (policy of joint agreement). IMO, rain does need to take responsibiity for the gambling debt and curtail her own habits to atone for that.

She can't be FORCED and I can see how that gets frustrating.


Keep moving in this direction. It's her choice to jump on or not.

She's an escapist. Looking for the easy out, not realzing the easy out is to do the work to fix yourself so you don't keep repeating the same mistake.

That's her's to figure out.

You work on you. Recognize your own faults and work at making yourself a better person. It's for YOU not for anyone else.



I don't think it's wrong. But it isn't very constructive either. Did you plan TOGETHER how to handle the gambling debt and what sacrifices had to made or did you decide and demand that she follow what you say because she caused it?

I'm not saying that's WRONG, it's just a tough way to have a healthy marriage. More of a parent/child dynamic.

Fox

Dude...

Free RC...going for walks every day for half an hour gives you UA attention, can share aesthetic, intellectual, creative and recreational intimacies. Playing in the park...window shopping (without buying...sharing emotional intimacy about what you would buy for her, what it would symbolize, what it reminds you of...and vice versa). (Fox really nailed communicating this in her post, btw.)

Working together is also intimate...where you guys find a project you can do together, which produces and rewards, even if it's not much against your debt...thereby earning up a little to spend on romantic intimacy (like a dinner out).

And then when you texted and called, you could recall the walk, the playing together, share more of what you felt when you saw <blank> together...which is verbal affection. Bleh? What is this "Bleh"? I think you fear feeling better than you have in years...of thriving. I think you fear thriving.

There, I said it straight.



If you see yourself doing for her to get her back in the marriage (she's already in it, btw), then you won't feel loving feelings as a result of your own loving actions. Essentially, draining your own love bank. LBing self? When you share your stuff (emotional intimacy) you can also meet her EN for attention, affection...AND your own.

You sure won't want to do this if you feel safer, more powerful and secure in your resentment. That's the toxin we love more than people...so we are attracted to those who are very much like those we first resented.

Have you considered that she doesn't want someone to be the life of the party--projection means she wants to be...and in RC, you can do half of that by listening, sharing your appreciation, understanding of her stuff without taking it into yourself. She loved you, was crazy about you, strongly attracted to you for not being the needy one for attention...where you gave it with your focus, your presence, as attentive audience, too. If you take what she says about you as truly being about you, then you're again robbing your own love bank.

You are marvelous as is, toots. Leave her statements over there, with her...she may want to have money to throw around, to have fun with...the more you have fun without throwing money, the more you get to VALUE her and she gets to VALUE you...she hasn't valued herself, I don't think. Again, loving resentment more than people can do this...and we find ways and folks to resent to keep us full.

You know why I think RC is so important? Gives your inner children a chance to play together, glimpses who your partner was before you met them...and gives us room to become allies again, after being intense enemies. Reminds us how pure our spirits can be...we hear it in the laughter, and in RC, we can laugh at ourselves, share our stuff...allows us to act out, not play the role of the adult, hence, not feel our intense failures constantly. What you devalue, Dude, may well devalue your marriage.

Strive first to understand, then be understood. Automatic judgment means automatic disconnection. Understandable to me why connection feels like the traitor in you--you may even feel allergic to it right now--it's not. You weren't betrayed by your connection...your marriage was betrayed repeatedly by your wife.

RC would go a long way in helping you separating the soul from the actions...seeing the wholeness of being God created, separate from the actions that being chose before.

Which is part of true forgiveness and essential to redemption.

Amazing thing about being betrayed...we may focus on forgiving the traitor and forget how much we need to learn to forgive ourselves, too.

Listen to Fox and stop comparing YOURSELF to OM. Can't be done logically anyway. You're real. He isn't. You're irreplaceable and he's fantasy. You're the husband, half of your marriage. He's nobody, Dude.

Don't rent space to a phantom. TRIG is your real wife, really half your marriage. You gotta stand in that reality and don't let yourself go to fantasy. That's your job. And where you dwell in your thoughts, that's your treasure. What, you wanna treasure the OM?

Don't assume she's comparing...and if she does compare you aloud to OM, point out the fantasy. Say "Stop, you're attacking our marriage." Because she is...if she does. I can't tell because I did this A LOT and pointed at my DH as making me...and he said, "I haven't mentioned her...and YOU compared her in your question to me." Oh. I did that?

LA

Ooooh, LA, you're good.

This breakdown should help dude quite a bit if he is the analytical sort as he said he is.

Thank you - I learn from you with each post I read.

Fox

Thanks for all the support and help. I find myself having to go back and re-read this to give myself a boost to make it a few more days.

The weekend was good, but WW was not around. I spent all weekend with DS while WW was away on a business trip. She texted me all weekend that she missed me, etc. but it just didn't feel right when she came home, I can't explain it. Its like she is either acting nice trying to manipulate me, or she genuinely wants to, but stops herself somehow. Very frustrating to ride this coaster of emotions. I'm not in the same place emotionally as she, so I don't have the same hangups about showing love or meeting needs.

I don't know if NC was broken, I don't think so, but you never know for sure at this point. She's acting the same as usual, so I don't think anything has happened.

My biggest frustration at the moment is with myself. My expectations after the talks and messages from this weekend were very high when she returned, and I went out of my way to make it a pleasant evening. All she did was give me a small hug. After a few hours of disappointment, I brought up the R talk which ended not so pleasantly as you could probably tell. Ugh. The first things she wanted to talk about after being away for 3 days is who I have talked to and what did I say. She seems obsessed with keeping all of it hidden.

She is still pretty mad that her parents know about this. Her mother corners me incessantly and asks me questions, and I try to be honestly vague. I don't want to lie, but I get tired of being in the middle of all of them. Any suggestions on handling this. Of course WW doesn't want anyone to know what she's done, and her M wants to know everything and I just want it to go away. Whenever she rails me with questions, she then proceeds to go off on WW, which makes living with WW that much more miserable. Remember, we live with them, so it's not so easy to avoid it - The only caveat being they are only here about one week of the month due to their professions. I feel there should be a diplomatic way other than just telling them all to go away and leave me alone, but I am to that point. It makes getting out of here look good to me despite the drawbacks.

DS is going to be home everyday until schools starts, so it will not be very easy to have R talks, so that will probably benefit me more than her, lol. My biggest frustration is the lack of progress she has made. She told me last night that she was "here, aren't I". Well whoop de doo. She is still so fogged out she may be lost at sea with no way home. I've gotten better at withdrawing myself from the conversation and not making disrespectful judgments when it undoubtedly turns to this.

You can't have it both ways.

You exposed to WW mom for her help.

I understand. I didn't exactly create the monster, but I fed it meat to eat. I will have to reassess my approach to them and figure out how to react better and formulate a strategy to handle them when they do not help any. Remember, these are the same people who raised WW, so they are culpable in as much as to how she behaves to some extent. It has gotten to the point where I think they say things to her for their own benefit instead of hers or ours. It's 20 years too late for some real parenting at this point. I could easily get us out of this situation and into a safer place if we moved, but I can't trust WW to do anything, and that would just be adding more monetary difficulties and asset splits if we D.