Aphelion is absolutely correct. Recovery will not take place until the other addictions are resolved. Using Plan A with an addict is a disaster because it is impossible to meet their needs and because the addict uses it as an excuse to exploit the BS. The only MB principle Dr HArley does recommend in these cases is PLAN B, to remove the BS from the abuse.

I would add that Dr Harley has never hesitated to tell someone they needed to get a divorce if it was warranted, whether or not the BS wanted it. Sometimes a marriage is so destructive that it is downright irresponsible to help someone stay in it. [I don't know if that is the case here]

I agree very much with Aphelion that he should contact the Harleys to get their assessment. And how very generous of him to offer to pay.

Bless you, Aphelion.

Dude, please take him up on his offer to help you.

I sincerely appreciate the offer, but I must decline at the moment. It's not that we don't need the help, we need it more than anything, its just I feel we have relied on her parents for so long, it's time to break away from the teet so to speak. We need to do this on our own. Part of the reason she gambled was she always knew her parents would bail her out if it came down to it, and I don't think she would appreciate the help as much if it was given rather than earned. We live with them now, so no house payment or utilities. We are practically house-sitting while they are on the road. We keep the place up and I do repairs and maintenance and yard work just like if it were my own. I couldn't do this if I didn't earn my keep. But, we are still being helped by them through this and we are able to pay our debts this way. Enablement.

We could actually afford some IC right now for her if she really wanted it. We could pay just the minimums on a couple of cards and use that money for it. We both work as professionals and make a halfway decent check, it just gets eaten up by dumb choices from the past. Of course that is $100 a session for someone locally, not the $350 per session here.

I want her to initiate the IC. She went to see someone a couple of months ago, but quit after 2 times when he had a schedule conflict. I really don't feel the need to see an IC right now, as all of you together have given me the insight into my predicament and I have formed a strategy for dealing with her and my own struggles. I need her to WANT to realize she has problems and WANT to fix them. I can't make her do any of this. I can alter my reactions to her and use them to influence her, but I can't mentally change her. I can also see that she isn't in any place YET to ask for help, not matter how bad I want her or need her to be.

I do appreciate both sides of the coin here. I always have both sitting on my shoulders telling me to listen. Steadfast and Fox gives me insight into my own psyche that I really need. It may not help me fix WW, but it sure helps me work on me and the way I look at things so that I can react better. I decided from the beginning to give this a shot, and I aim to see it through to some degree. I am going to hang in there a few more months and see what happens. If at that time, I don't feel we have made any progress, or she is really not the person I want to be with, I will initiate the divorce myself. I've been through so much with her and the history we have, it's hard to just drop it. I also would miss my 12yo DS, who I have really enjoyed spending more time with lately.

Regarding D, I really do not foresee me getting full custody. Pending a total mental collapse by her or some nasty behaviors surfacing, the most I could get would be primary due to the gambling. By snatching my son up and making a huge scene about it, I don't think this is the best for DS, even though it might be best for WW. I need WW to come around and at least be rational and in a better place before I leave her with DS for any amount of time. Is she a good mother, yes. Arguably the damage done to our family through some of her choices has been detrimental to everyone, including DS. I hope to at least have her where she can see this and is willing to do somethings of her own through her repeated actions that she will teach DS better in the future. A D is not an easy fix either, so I might as well enjoy my time with DS, and work with WW to see if she wants to do a 180 and be the person I've always needed and thought she could be.

I don't need her to lay on a bed of nails, just show remorse, compassion, and humility and desire to fix this. I don't need her withdrawn, brooding and depressed and hanging on to some fantasy life. Only when she has cut OM out completely and shown me that she is capable of being a good wife and mother will I be ready to commit to this marriage 100%. Is that plan A, probably not 100%. I am trying to meet her needs so that her withdrawal period will be shorter, but from what I have read, this might not be the case due to her addictive personality. What I attribute to immaturity and selfishness could actually be a mental disorder? I don't know and won't until she decides to fix it. I'm giving her this chance right now, for me, us and DS.

She has yet to take the reigns and start to do this, but I am hoping she will. If not, I will do what is necessary. She thinks it will be easier to D now, while her feelings are detached, but I disagree. It might be easier for her, since she has a boyfriend to fall back on, but it won't be easier on me or DS. I'm going to ride this out a while longer and see what happens.

I appreciate the offer to pay for IC, and that really breaks me down to have to decide on the offer, as it is not something I am taking lightly at all. You don't go through life nowadays and come across people like this that often. It makes me re-evaluate my own life and what I am teaching DS about living as a good person who makes selfless decisions and offers to help others. I have really shut myself down over the years out of embarassment from how I have handled things with my M and life and I am really wanting to change that. In an effort to pay these debts I have probably changed some and am more concerned with money than I ever wanted to be. I don't like a lot of what I have become. I need to stop reacting to her stuff and start dictating my direction. This is all a part of that process.

I hope you all don't give up on me yet, and are available to answer my questions and put up with my ramblings a while longer.

Dude,

I remember you talking about rain’s gambling in your first post. You seemed to believe it was not really an issue.


Dr. Harley has stated that not everyone that deals with (alcohol, cigarettes and other issues) are all addicts. It has been assumed that rain is an addict because gambling got them into a financial mess. She has not gambled in over 8 months. Doesn’t mean she’s not an addict though.

Dude, you know her and your situation well enough to determine if it is an issue that still causes a problem for your M. If it’s still an issue; then I totally agree with Aphelion, rain needs to get professional help.

Having said that, I still don’t believe that that it is in your, her or your son’s best interest right now for you to turn your back on her as some have suggested. You (if you feel you can) should help her get into a program. If all of you efforts to do that fail, yes you should be ready to remove himself and your son from the situation and maybe seek a D. The only thing that would make you do that quicker would be if your safety of the safety of son were threatened.

All of this needs to be thought through and put into a plan. Aphelion seems to have very graciously offered to help you put one together with the help of the Harleys. I highly recommend you accept the offer. Way to step up there Aphelion!!

Otherwise, all you will get is the suggestions from the uncertified arm chair marriage counselors here on this forum.

BTW - I don’t think you need to be saved from yourself by any means. But if there are zero improvements that you can see in the next few weeks, then I will give you a poke with my sharktooth spear. And should you end the R, you can do it without any doubts about whether or not you did the right thing.

ALSO - If the gambling is an issue and you are denying it, then you are not doing your family any favors.

Have a good weekend Dude. Bless you.

S&C

MEOW!

How was the weekend, dude?

Fox

Hi Fox, the weekend went fairly well. I have pulled back emotionally from the R talks and just went about my business. A lot of family time this weekend, but I didn't let much get me down. WW and I have argued more, but I don't dwell on it, I just say what I need to and move on. She has been a little more affectionate, but my basic concerns are still there.

Nothing so far has been addressed that I had concerns over. The myspace page, the email, etc. She has accessed the stuff over the past few days, but I haven't asked to see it anymore and I don't threaten. She has not offered complete transparency, so I don't see it as a positive. Although, I have taken a different mindset about things the past few days.

When we were together the past few days, we really don't talk much. I have had to withdraw from talking about past, present and future on a lot of things. If it's not work or family related, I don't have much to say. She fills in the blanks with things that irritate me, wanting to get a tattoo (which I hate and always have), talks about vacations or her friends relationship problems (friends that are not "our" friends or that I have been purposefully excluded from), and practically everything monetary we are disagreeing over. The money is still half mine, but I don't think she views it as such. I told her I was getting a separate checking account. She has floated from withdrawn to anger, so we are in a phase of interaction. The problem is, I am getting tired of this either way.

She bought a couple of books to read. She already had "Should I stay or should I go" from a few months back that she has read already. She also bought "Why men love Beetches (mispelled on purpose)" and "He's just not that into you". What this means I have no idea and I didn't ask. I assume they have nothing to do with our relationship. It's probably the 5th or 6th books she's ever bought in 16 years I've known her. It wasn't a repair your marriage book, so I didn't discuss them much.

I haven't given her much to go on this past week. But honestly, I've been really burned out on it all and I'm getting close to my end. She might turn around in a few weeks and start doing everything right, but it might be too little too late. I'm starting to sort out my future plans without her in my head and they don't sound that bad. I don't know how much longer to give her, nor do I know how much more I can take of this. I think that within a couple of weeks, we don't have a firm plan in place and I don't feel she is doing the actions necessary I'm going to skip plan B and go towards D. I haven't discussed this with her, nor do I plan to right now. She can probably read this thread whenever she wants and that's fine, I haven't kept any secrets from her ever for as long as we've known each other.

The only way I can lighten up and start getting positive feedback to myself is to let some of this R turmoil go. Unfortunately right now, that includes her with it. So we shall see what happens the next few weeks.

dude, I have to be honest. I shouldn't say this, but I wish you would do Plan B. She has no idea what she's NOT appreciating, and I just don't see it happening unless you take a break. For your feelings, as well. You know she's been a tough case from the beginning, and the only tougher WW I've seen is Dino's (from Other Topics) - and he's going crazy, too. Think about it.

That's all good.



What are the arguments about?

Have you worked on HOW you argue? Do you feel listened to, does she?

Is a solution reached or is it just bickering to air frustrations?



This is not good. Have you told her what you would like in regards to these things? And she still does it?

She must go cold turkey in regards to OM. Recovery cannot begin. She's got one foot in and one foot out.

How frustrating for you.



Are you following Plan A or are you just winging it according to your feelings at the moment?

If it is true recovery that you want, you need to make a plan.

Figure out her EN's and work hard to fill them.

If you don't have the energy and you are just at the end of your rope, make a plan to end it.

Limbo land sucks.




She may be trying to push you into making the decision for her. That eases her own guilt.

I don't have any advice on what to do with that. Sorry.


I think she is looking for excuses for what she did.

I doubt she is finding any.


You MUST take care of yourself, Dude. If you need to step back from her and get something breathing room, do it. Take some time to yourself and figure out what you want for YOUR life.

Fox

OM dumped her.

She's been trying to contact him, but he's either completely ignoring her or barely responding to her.

By choosing to read WMLB she's hoping to figure out a way to get him to respond to her.

And by choosing to read HJNTIY she's trying to convince herself to let him go.

That'd be my best guess.

She seems just extremely self-centered. I am beginning to wonder of she was born without the empathy gene.

I agree with Marshmallow's assesment on the book choices. If she was interested in your marriage, she would be choosing marriage building books.

Unfortunately, that's what I think also. That is why the myspace and email and everything is still secret. It's the last things she has to hang on to that I can't access. If it is no big deal, then why is she logging into it almost every day the past week? It's very disrespectful to me and it has me very jaded right now.

I feel like her touching and kissing me the past few days is just to keep me hanging on a little while longer while she plans something, what I don't know. Maybe she thinks if she's nice I won't fight over custody, I don't know. I do know that she loves this guy, and can't let him go. I wish I could just take everything at face value, but I can't.

I also doubt the physical aspect that she claims was non existent. I don't know why, I just do. She swears unwaveringly that nothing physical has happened. But, no logical guy is going to mess around with a girl for over a year and love her and offer to actually move closer to her without any physical attention. At least no guy I know. She thinks that the lack of physical attention makes him chase her harder, who knows. I also know their relationship has not been entirely on the phone, etc. He works here some and stays the night around here in hotels. There was 1 night around 3-4 months ago that she supposedly was too intoxicated to drive and stayed at her friends house who was throwing the party. I know I'm delving too deep into this issue right now, but it's bugging me for some reason.

I'm probably not doing the best plan A right now, but after reading up, I've probably done a decent plan A since around February. So right now, I have gone almost 6 months in this limbo. I haven't found out about her relationship fully until latter May, so that is why it seems so short, but actually I've been fighting this without knowing the details for a while. I can't plan B unless I move out or talk her into moving out, and I doubt that is going to happen after she talked to a lawyer a few weeks ago.

I think she is trying but it is very little to me, while it may be really earth shattering for her. Like I said, I don't know if she's trying so that she can win me back or she's trying just to appease me for a D. She's doing enough to keep me hanging on, but not enough to give me any extended hope past tomorrow. I just feel I would see a more sincere effort from her at this point.

I think she has taken the withdrawal period she has read about and is milking it for all its worth. She thinks she will be in some depressed withdrawn state for the next 6 months and then we can start recovering, but that isn't the way I see our recovery. She may be in withdrawal, but that doesn't give you the right to treat me like this and she can also make more of an effort to repair our relationship, and she isn't.

I'm going to give it a couple more weeks and then I might have to nuke this relationship we have had since October of 1992.

Jiminy Crickets, dude. If even YOU realize all this, there is NO REASON on earth she should be with you right now. If you've exposed and they're still carrying on, or even if only she is, get rid of her. I'm sorry if I'm rude about the woman you love, but SHE DOESN'T LOVE YOU. She only loves herself and YOU DON'T DESERVE TO BE TREATED LIKE THIS. You deserve better.

Kick her out, let her feel what it's like to own up to her consequences, and get your life back in order. IF she ever straightens up, you can always look into seeing her again down the road. For now, kick her out and protect yourself.

SHE IS TROUBLE.

She never committed to NC.


B/c she has been trying to make contact w/ him.


My guess is she's throwing you a bone in order to keep you there. The last thing she wants is for you to do something that will upset her apple cart.

The only thing she's "planning" is how she can get OM to respond to her.


She might be telling the truth here. I'm pretty sure both of those books talked about w/ holding sex to "catch" a guy.


Plan A was never meant to go on this long.

You're risking your mental health by doing so.

Are you aware of that?


Like I said before. She's just doing the bare minimum in order to appease you, b/c she doesn't want you taking charge of your life and upsetting her world.


No, it doesn't.

But, she's NOT in w/drawal yet.

She's still in contact.


I sincerely hope you mean this.

Happiness is waiting for you.

You don't have to continue to suffer like this.

Hey Dude,

.........................................


Sorry for the pause. I was just picturing people cringing as they read this from me.

When you first posted and we talked about NC and whether or not it was important that rain sent an NC letter. Well this is the reason it was not important. If she had sent it, and she’s still in contact, the letter would have meant nothing. And if she sent another one, it would have less credibility.

Remember what was important was whether or not you felt NC was in place. At the time you felt it was. Well her actions indicate that she is not ready to do what is necessary to recover the M. What she says and what she does are need to jive.

What you need is for her to be open and honest about her activities. She has been advised to on he thread to open up the Myspace to you. If she is not willing to do that then the chances are very good that she’s still in contact through the Myspace and she is not in withdrawal. Withdrawal will only happen if there is no contact; period.

You say that you will wait another two weeks to see what she does. Do you plan to start divorce proceedings or Plan B? If you feel like you still want to restore the M, then you should Plan B. If you feel like you are completely done then I’d say that the last six months of your Plan A will have been for nothing. Part of the idea of Plan A is to give your W a taste of what it would be like living with a man that is committed to loving her and meeting her top EN.


An it can last as long as you are strong enough to do it without depleting all of your love for your W


Plan B is to protect whatever love that remains so when she figures out that she really wants you then there is something to work with to restore the M. Any questions, read what Dr. Harley has to say about Plan A and Plan B.

Plan A and B


Plan B is a tool to get your W return to the M. Plan D is not.

If there is no love remaining; then there is nothing from your end to build on.

Whatever you do, it is best that you get an attorney, protect your finances and get her out of the house. No matter what, your child should stay with you.

I don’t know the details of your plan, but I hope it runs along those lines. If not, well you gotta do what you feel is best for you and your child.

Oh BTW – Most A don’t die just because of Plan A. Many times it requires Plan B to help shock them out of the A get them to realize what will be like without their spouse.

Try to remember not to let your emotions guide your choices. Let your plan do that.

Even though things aren’t going according to plan, your doing well. Stay strong!

Blessing to you.

S&C

I agree with you and the others, dude.

Your mental health is at stake here.

She is cake-eating. Keeping her son, keeping you and the security you represent, while having (or trying) to have her "fun" on the side.

If she leaves you, she will have to face her mistakes (gambling and infidelity) alone. Does her OM know about the gambling debt and the previous infidelity? I doubt it.



This may be absolutely true. She may be "softening" you up so that you willingly give your son to her after she has made her "attempt" at recovery and it just didn't work.

Even if you decide to Plan D, I would suggest Plan B first or, at the very least, during. Plan B will help you get your head together - OUTSIDE of rain. It will help you gain the strength that is necessary to get through the trials and tribulations of divorce.

You need some relief, dude. Plan B will give you that peace. It is difficult in the beginning, but is so worth it. You'll go through your own withdrawal from rain and then eventually realize that you are a person without her and that you DO deserve better.

I think rain needs a shakeup. She needs to fall on one side of the fence or the other. Plan B will give her a PUSH to the other side. She will then see what life will truly be without her family.

Her fantasy will have to become a reality and it won't live up to her expectations.


I was married in October 1992 also.

Maybe think of it is a wildfire instead of a nuking. The fire needs to come through the forest to clean out all the deadfall and for new growth to begin. The heat of the flame is what opens the seeds for new growth to start.

Chin up, dude.


Fox

Dude,

You taking steps in the best interest of you and your son will make her choose. Only then will she likely choose.

And it will tell you alot and all you need to know one way or the other.

Do things the right way. In a way you would be proud of. Treat her the way you have always wanted to treat a wife. Treat yourself the way you have always deserved to be treated. And take steps forward. You need to lead the way from where you are now to where you deserve to be. You are capable of this.

One other thing, I view your thought process as logical.

Worth repeating.


Fox

Dude,

I know that there are some people that say you shouldn't thank someone for something that they should already be doing. But you know what, I think that rewarding someone for doing the right things is always appropriate. Especially if they are trying to change their behavior.

Rewards go farther in getting people to repeat good behavior than ignoring it or making them feel bad after they do it.

Here's why I say that. Rain has said the she deleted her Myspace. Were you able to confirm that it was deleted? And did you thank her for dealing with a situation that caused you pain?

Are you trying to find ways to meet her EN's? Some of them may be hard, but probably not as hard as what you will deal with should you choose not to try to meet them.

Do you know what your's and rain's EN's are? Let us know what they are so we can put our collective heads together to help you meet them.

She is coming to a place where she will be able to receive your attempts at meeting those needs. But you will need to at least try. And that means you need to know what they are.

Blessings.

S&C

It looks like I shook things up enough that she started posting again. We'll see if it continues. If we have any chance at all, she needs to address a lot of the things that are going on inside her. I'm still not in a good place yet, so I am inching closer to a plan B type scenario. I'm taking control back.

She has deleted the Myspace, as of today it no longer shows up. I have not had any access to it for weeks, as it was set to private, so I can't confirm when it stopped being the OM shrine. I still do not have access to the email she used to set it up, and which I found a long letter to him that she emailed a few months ago. This also gripes me that they text so much and conversate through myspace and email, yet I am a nerd for being on a computer.

I also have my own myspace page. It is also set to private, but she can have my password and anything else she wants, there is nothing there to hide nor does it disrespect her in any way. I am married and it states plainly. I have only had it a few months, after I noticed she had one. I initially made it and sent her a friend request, but she never responded back to me so it made me curious.

I will admit to my relying on the computer as a recreational companion for a long time and it has hurt our marriage. I reacted terribly to the first affair and used the computer as a crutch to pass away my time. I still use a computer for work and often at home, but my time on it is very seldom compared to 6 years ago. I used it mainly to play video games when I should have been more interactive with my family.

She definitely has this teenage viewpoint of a man. It has been that way for a long time. She thinks a man should be outgoing, boisterous, adventurous and the life of the party, rich, powerful, etc.. I have no idea how she first became attracted to me with this view. She also doesn't realize how this outgoing, boisterous, life of the party kinda guy comes with his own set of vices just by having those personality traits. You really can't have it all I suppose.

We filled out the EN questionnaire. I was leery to go over them, because it was just a list of things that OM was doing that I wasn't. It is still this way, but I wanted her to be in the right frame of mind to discuss them. I am going to list the top 5 of each as we have them, and a brief synopsis of how I FEEL about them. I could be wrong or right, but I want to discuss them openly, but I feel she is too foggy to really work it out right now.

Her top 5 emotional needs:

1. Affection - I don't understand this one to a degree, as the very acts of affection, such as kissing, touching, hugs, etc. are not given by her, as in (i.e,)we give to each other differently. She just doesn't give them at all. Usually, I do these things and expect them in return, only she never does them. Maybe she needs to define affection.

2. Recreational Companionship - She really needs to define this. What she has told me that she likes a lot of the things that we do, but I am not the type of person she enjoys them with, plain and simple. I am not the center of attention, I am not flirting with other girls, I am not drinking too much and being boisterous, I am not seeking attention, period. I don't tell jokes, I am boring she says. Have I been, probably so. I have been a shell of a man the past few years. I am working to fix that, but I am never going to be OM, nor do I want to act that way, really. Also, if she will explain WHY this is so high. Is it that RC is more important to her than 8 others, or is it that this is one that I do not meet, thusly making it so high. That wasn't the way you're supposed to fill it out. By this being her #2 need, it makes me feel that she cares about going out and doing things moreso than the other 8 needs. This is a huge turnoff for me, and in a big way. Material things and going places are NOT more important and I can't view it as such. That is why I need her to clearly define this.

3. Conversation - I don't know a guy around who couldn't conversate better with their wife. I think a lot of our problems with previous affairs and financially have made this compounded exponentially. I have tried to stop discussing the negatives and focus more on the positives. Granted, I have not been very open lately, but that is to protect myself. This could be an area for vast improvement from me. I need her to make huge strides towards recovery for me to be able to discuss more openly with her.

4. Admiration - I have to admit that I have not admired her and that really disappoints me, because this one should be really easy to fix. This is something that will come back in due time, if she makes the steps to recovery.

5. SF - This baffles me period. I don't understand how it can be this high, yet I am still fulfilling it. I can only assume that I do not meet her top 4 needs only.

6-10 - The rest of these needs are not very high to her or I am fulfilling them.


My needs:


1. Admiration - I do not feel admired at all. She looks at my good qualities as negatives and a handicap for not fulfilling her RC. This goes back a long time. She told me after the first affair, that she admired the OM because he could go out and buy a $50k truck whenever he wanted to. That has stuck with me to this day.

2. Affection - She is not affectionate, in frequency. No way else to explain it.

3. SF - No frequency and sometimes uninspiring. We have gone months without it in the past, and was probably one of the main triggers for me initiating a self induced plan A and starting to pull away from the mire and towards my own personal well being.

4. Honesty and Openess - I can put up with some things if the above needs are met, but all 4 of these needs are beyond neglect with me.

5. Recreational Companionship - I DO like to go do things when it is financially viable, and I assume we always have a good time when we go. It becomes a level of maturity, when you have a child and responsibilities, that you must cut back and you can't go and do some things, understandable. But, I do want someone who will enjoy a small, inexpensive activity with me, it doesn't have to be a spectacle.

I can discuss my 6-10 in more detail later, but wanted to just overview the top 5, as she only had 4 needs that I was not meeting and these were assumed to be her top needs.

I've been out of town and I'm really tired tonight. I hope my negativity is not shining through too brightly, as I might type out these thoughts differently tomorrow. I will go ahead and post this, and if necessary accept a few 2x4 for my thoughtlessness, disrespectful judgements, etc.