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"As far as her BH still waiting on her...that may or may not be."

Yes, it MAY BE. Why ignore that possibility?
What if her BH IS still waiting for her and her BC are praying their WM will get back together with their BF?

"We have no way to know that from here."

No we don't, so why believe the word of a WS?
You are aware that WS's are not very honest, right?
You have heard of fog-babble, re-writing history, and the flat out lying that WS's do, right?
Even if it were a 50/50 chance that she's telling the truth (it it weren't a fact that WS's lie), why believe her and ignore her what her BH might want?

"Unlike many here, I'm of the opinion that the marriage ends when the divorce is final."

But you admit you have no idea whether the divorce is really final! And even if it is, are you really saying to the BS's who post at MB's that are still hoping and working towards reconciliation, even though their divorce is final, that you choose to support the relationship their WXS is in with whatever new OP instead of helping them?!?

So if my WXH had posted here, after the divorce, when I was still open to reconciliation, waiting for him to defog and meet my Plan B requirements, asking for help in trying to salvage one of his shack-up relationships, you WOULD HAVE defended/supported/assisted that relationship with no regard for what my daughters and I wanted?!?!? WOW!

"She's no longer married to him..."

You do NOT know that.
Again, my WH was telling people we were divorced before he even filed for divorce, calling me his XW.
You can't possibly be that gullible.
Sometimes WS tell the OP they're single and never even were married, others claim they're separated when they really aren't, and some even say they're divorced before the divorce is final.

"she's no longer required to 'wait' for him or otherwise plan around him in her life."

She never did give her BH a chance, she didn't 'wait' for him.
She got involved with a married man, then made sure the recovery was only a false recovery by persisting to obsess over the OM and cruelly expecting her BH to listen to her whine about how much the OM/affiar meant to her, while her BH put in lots of effort trying to meet her EN's to no avail. Her BH was VERY forgiving and understanding but she wanted him to validate her feelings for the OM, to pretend that the affair meant more than it really was - just a selfish irresponsible crush on another woman's husband. So she re-wrote history changing her description of her BH so he would sound so awful that her affair and a divorce would sound justifiable (to anyone who doesn't know better because it's just fog-babble).

And then she was right away involved with another OM, and then another.

WHEN did she 'wait' for her BH or give him a real chance?

What if her BH is still waiting for her?
Does the BH matter at all to you?
Weren't you a BS?

Since when is what the WS claims and wants the only thing that matters?

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I was a BS.

I'm currently in a VERY happy marriage that's been recovered for four years now.

Quote
Since when is what the WS claims and wants the only thing that matters?

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No we don't, so why believe the word of a WS?
You are aware that WS's are not very honest, right?
You have heard of fog-babble, re-writing history, and the flat out lying that WS's do, right?
Even if it were a 50/50 chance that she's telling the truth (it it weren't a fact that WS's lie), why believe her and ignore her what her BH might want?

Given that...what's the value of posting to this thread at all? In any fashion? Aren't you wasting your valuable time doing so?

I get where you're coming from...but I don't share your viewpoint about WS as a whole. Anyone who comes here does deserve the chance to be helped in some fashion.

Does a BS matter to me at all? CERTAINLY...I've BEEN ONE.

But he's not here, she's indicated that she's divorced, and unless I have some kind of evidence to the contrary I work with the information I've got.

Therefore, I'll post advice as I see fit, as long as I'm not violating TOS.

Is the BS the ONLY person who matters in all of this?

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"Blunt question...what direct, practical advice do you have for her? What ACTIONS does she need to take to sort things out? HOW do you suggest she solve her problems?"

What I've already stated:

Stop trying to keep/get that next fix of addictive 'new love' by starting new relationships.

Spend some time alone or with her BH (if he is still willing to help her through recovery) long enough to get over her addiction.

This chasing after the an unsustainable elusive high, using new OM to get her next fix, can't possibly be good for her children.

Addictions end one of two ways:

withdrawal or crash and burn

I will not participate in 'supporting' her further along the crash and burn path even if by doing so it might win the approval of some of the posters here.

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I will not participate in 'supporting' her further along the crash and burn path even if by doing so it might win the approval of some of the posters here.

Fair enough. I won't support her crash and burn either...which is why I recommend that she get the help she needs.

Nor will I change to win approval of some of the posters here either. Nice to know we can agree on something.

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**EDIT**

Last edited by Revera; 08/05/08 01:35 PM. Reason: personal attack - STOP!
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"But he's not here, she's indicated that she's divorced, and unless I have some kind of evidence to the contrary I work with the information I've got."

That must have been the POV of all those who failed to confront my WH and his OW when he was committing adultery, their co-workers. I guess they just figured since they didn't really know me and my daughters, and the adulterers were telling them my marriage was 'over', and referring to me as the 'ex-wife', then their relationship was real and worthy of support?

And believing anything a WS claims, unless you somehow get some kind of evidence contrary, is gullibility IMHO.

I guess you didn't notice her lack of honesty with her BH, her dishonesty by omission when she came back without informing posters she destroyed her marriage because of an online affair with a married man, and her failure to answer our questions, eh?
None of that hurt her credibility at all in your eyes?

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So what do you recommend we do...beat her with a stick?

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Originally Posted by Owl
So what do you recommend we do...beat her with a stick?

Owl, my recommendation is that you admit that you don't know what is helpful for waywards, most especially Cardsonly. We can see the result of your "help." You posted to her 2 years ago and she still has a wayward mind, that should tell you something.

While you are very intolerant of meremortals posts, you were VERY TOLERANT of the sickening, enabling, affair glorifying posts written by members of your so called "support" group back in 2005. This is the kind of "support" she received back then and you never said a word against it:

IWRA wrote:

Quote
I know you know that Cardsonly and 2BNormal and I share
emailing. We have become wonderful friends. We have been
able to share inner struggles that are too personal for MB.

We write our feelings without fear of rebuke;yet we give encouragement
to always do what is right.

BlessedTime:
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Your life with your husband reading the messages, did
not have this dramatic happening, true?
So if the OM wanted, he could email or call you, is that right also?

I am sure he is WONDERING about how you are doing but evidently he
thinks it best for his marriage to not have you be a part of his life.

And yeah, after 3 months of emails saying how wonderful, pretty, fun and
sexy you are, this is a hard DRUG to be without even though you know in
your mind it is for the best.

(Your heart, the place that has false reasoning, says differently, and
yes you absolutely will have severe withdrawal from his loving
attention, it is understandable.)

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BlessedTime:You and the OM were both filling emotional needs for
one another; it is hard for you to accept that part of your life is
over.

If it makes you feel any better, your NOT contacting him is making
him WONDER about you, think of and miss you more than if you were
'chasing him'with continual emails and calls.
You are remaining a MYSTERY to him
although I am sure he knows how
you feel by that phone conversation 2 weeks ago.

Cardsonly replied:
Quote
BlessedTime, thank you for saying what I
needed to hear about OM probably missing me. Whether it's true or not,
it lessens the pain. The song touched me and started the tears. Maybe
the crying is a sign that I am accepting the loss finally.

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IWRA: We willingly walked into this TRAP for the thrill and
excitement of this secret romance.
We soaked up the compliments, attention and affection like a sponge,
didn't we?

I bet today I have checked my email 50 times, hoping for a message from
him.
Do you guys still do that? I last heard from him Wednesday night, but I
can tell it is ending.
I guess I am just wanting him to throw me a crumb of attention.
He was a widow man for a year and sure liked me a lot and has been so
wonderful to me.

I just really really miss him as I know you that have had online
romances do also.


Quote
IWRA: So of course we have NEVER kissed. (But we have discussed
how wonderful touches and kisses would be.)


Dreamers, just a couple of foolish dreamers!
A fantasy world as we should know, all online affairs eventually end. We
live hundreds and hundreds of miles apart.
There must have been a big void in our hearts or it would have never
happened.

Maybe we just wanted and needed this attention from another man to make
us feel more like feminine and desirable women.

I do wish him happiness, YET, even so, I WILL MISS HIS KIND WORDS AND
ATTENTION. frown

Quote
IWRA: OM and I have had several phone conversations, I love his
voice. I did see him at the alumni but didn't talk to him.
I will see him in June of this year at the alumni. (Scary) (But there
will be hundreds of people there.)

We have emailed pictures and I will admit I emailed one of my bare
bosoms! He NEVER asked me to, I wanted to. I was the aggressor I think.

I can't believe I did that. UNREAL really!

I guess it is like women that write Romance novels, use their sexual
imagination and that is similar to what I did with my OM. I took him on
a little adventure! I was on an exciting secret adventure also. He
certainly unleashed MY sexually. WHEW!

My husband sees me more as a companion than a lover. Oh well.~sigh~ I
know I should try harder, for him to see this sexual side of me.
But so many years together, it is just kinda ho hum.


This is the kind of "SUPPORT" Cardsonly recieved on Marriage Builders back in 2005. The kind of support to which OWL participated in and advocated. I am SAD, SO SAD, that Cardsonly never recieved any REAL SUPPORT on Marriage Builders in the past. She only received enablement. I am ASHAMED that this went on on Marriage Builders. With your support, OWL.









"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Interesting that you seek to enforce how/what I post, Mel. I thought that was something you were dead set against?

Please...if you feel my post violates TOS on this site...ensure the mods are aware of it. Otherwise, please feel free to NOT to tell me what I can or cannot, should or should not post.

Thanks.

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Owl, read my post again. I have never told you how to post or who to post to. Yet you do this to meremortal.

But I have a question for you, Owl. I ask this very sincerely:

Can you show me one post on that thread where you told one of your affair supporting sycophants that their pro-affair posts were "not helpful?"

You have told meremortal that her posts are "not helpful." Can you show me a post where you said the same thing in response to the affair enabling posts on that thread?

Can you point me to them?



"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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I have been divorced about 2 years


That is "about" 24 months since your divorce


Quote
After divorcing I dated a man for about 6 months


That took up 6 month's of your time after your divorce

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I have been dating this man for about 14 months.

You've been dating this current guy 14 months ... add that to the 6 months you dated the first post-divorce guy = 20 months of dating in the 24 months you've been divorced

What's you hurry?

When did you grieve the loss and failure of your 20 year marriage?

There is something very strange and unsettling here. Yes, I've read this thread, and also re-read parts of your old thread - and it seems to me you have learned very little, if anything, about your failures, your weaknesses ... you've been very busy dating inappropriate men ....

BUT the one thing that frosts my cake is this:

Quote
Or is he simply unable to emotionally attach to me, in which case I should move on to a relationship where the feelings can be reciprocated?


.... here you are .... already contemplating "moving on" .... WHY? What's the point? What's your hurry?

Do you not see how you are doomed to continually seeking the next relationship?

Are you blind to the fact that it is YOU who has been emotionally unattached & unavailable in relationships?
You were unattached in your marriage. And you are unattached with these men as well.

It's you. It's not "them".

slow down
don't date anyone for 2 years
YOU are not ready to date.
You haven't learned much.

Pep








Last edited by Pepperband; 08/06/08 09:41 AM.
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"You have told meremortal that her posts are "not helpful."

Actually since I most certainly do not intend to help adulterers destroy marriages/families, not even inadvertantly (um because some posters lie to us here), I take it as a compliment when adultery anablers point out that I am "not helpful".

I certainly wish some of the people my WXH crossed paths with would have been "not helpful" while he and the OW had destroying my marriage/family as their agenda.

OWL seems to be one of the posters here at MB's who isn't REALLY opposed to adultery. I've met lots of people like her IRL (one of the reasons why MB is needed - a place where BS's can escape from the stench of our adultery-excusing culture). They might not like it if somebody cheated on THEM, or one of their close friends or relatives... BUT if they themselves want to cheat (or one of their close friends or relatives is an adulterer) then it's OK. They just want to 'support' whatever it is their friends/relatives want to do.

(I do wonder though how they decide who to support when they are friends with both the WS and the BS?)

If my WXH had come here to MB's before I did, asking for help in trying to save his crumbling adulterous relationship, OWL admits she would have been more than happy to help him. She has admitted that she would believe whatever he might tell her, would have no qualms about relegating me, my daughters, my marriage, our family to the garbage heap of 'over', too late, so let's focus on helping him save his new relationship with the OW... based on whatever lies he might feed her!

She seems unable to grasp the concept that ADULTERERS TELL LIES in order to justify what they are doing.

I don't particularly like to be lied to and played for a fool, especially when the liar's agenda is something as evil as adultery. OWL doesn't seem to mind being used that way I guess.
This is probably because she isn't really anti-adultery so much as she's pro-whatever-my-friend-wants-help-with (even if her 'friend' is a philanderer that she just happened to meet before or instead of meeting the BS). My guess is that OWL excuses the dishonesty by blaming it on us, that the philanderers 'have to' lie here in order to con the posters into giving them help, because we won't willingly help adulterers pursue adultery.

If cardsonly was addicted to a street drug (instead of the chemical her own body produces when she's 'in love'), and for whatever reason her current drug dealer just wasn't satisfying her anymore, for sure she'd want 'help' in finding a way to get her current drug dealer to get better at meeting her 'need'.. or 'help' in justifying dumping him for a new drug dealer. Somebody like me would be "not helpful" with that agenda.

Cardsonly is afraid of going through withdrawal.
I understand her desire to avoid that unpleasantness.
She wants a way to keep the fixes coming.
I understand that too.
But I refuse to "help" her get what she wants for the same reason I don't give cash to an alcoholic or drug addicted homeless person. (I'll give them food, toiletries, volunteer at the soup kitchen, but I will not support them getting their next addictive high.)

I know what carsonly wants. But I doubt seriously that what cardsonly wants is the same thing that her BH and BC want.
I will not pretend they don't exist or that she is telling the truth about them. I know better than to believe the lies of an active adulterer.




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Originally Posted by Owl
So what do you recommend we do...beat her with a stick?

Telling her to put down the crack pipe for starters.

Telling her that her problem is not that her current partner (drug dealer) is not the problem, and that a new partner (drug dealer) isn't going to solve her problem.

She needs to withdraw.

She needs to face the fact that what she wanted to pretend was something special was just a married man getting some cheap thrills online with a married woman.

She got a chemical high from that.
She made the false assumption that artificial temporary high was 'real love'.

She expected her BH to get/keep her just as high ASAP or else he was supposedly not meeting her EN's. (Plus she cruelly expected her BH to listen to her fog-babble about how wonderful and real her affair feelings were - she pretended THAT was a valid part of recovery, an EN he owed it to her to fill.) She thought recovery meant she wouldn't have to go through withdrawal - she could juts stay high. Her BH 'failed' to meet that 'need' for her.

So she got her next fix from OM#2.
That high wore off fast - it took 6 months for her to realize he was 'emotionally unavailable' too... (as in couldn't KEEP her high forever)

So then she turned to OM#3.
The 'new love' high he gave her is wearing off now too...
They guy owns restaurants and simply doesn't have the time to dote over her and keep her thrilled and giddily 'in love'.
(BTW I work in food service - your spouse pretty much has to work in the restaurant with you to make both the marriage and the business successful.)

Withdrawal will be painful for her.
But not as ultimately painful as wasting even more years jumping from one man to the next.

You want to encourage her in seeking her next high.
I want to take the crack pipe away from her.

You can call my approach 'blunt' or 'hitting her with a stick'...
IMHO your approach is called 'killing her with kindness'.

Also, from the perspective of her BC, whose approach do you think they are praying somebody will present to her? EVEN if all bridges to reconciliaton with her BH have been burned, it is not in the best interest of their children for her to be dating so soon and with so many different men. It doesn't give them enough time to heal from the break-up of their family, sets a horrible example, adds to their embarrassment and humiliation, and could even endanger them.





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An interesting message. You are asking about him, but most of the information you gave us is about you. What is his background?


But, both men and women get a bit gun shy after one or two divorces. Having endured the pain of divorce once, one is not anxious to go through it again.

Unfortunately, when it comes to relationships, marriage guarantees nothing. If you live in a no-fault state like I do, your spouse can leave for any reason, behave miserably towards you, lie, cheat and steal, and IT DOESN'T MATTER. Thus, many men and women view marriage with suspicion and want a very high degree of certainty before they commit to it.


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