I think it wouldn't be closure, but a chance to size up and compare the OW.

That's what men do when the confront an interloper.

I had conversations with both of the OW in my life and both during the heat of the A(s). The first (was over the phone) and she declared she didn't know we weren't divorced and promised to back off. She lied and even made the comment once to my husband that if he ever slept around on her, IT'D BETTER NOT BE WITH YOUR WIFE, ANYONE BUT HER. Idiot.

I met the second OW in person and she admitted that my H and I would probably get back together because it was obvious he still loved me. We walked away, not really friends, but with an understanding.

Today, every now and then I still have visions of running into OW#1 in person, confronting her to let her know that H and I are fully recovered and to tell her that I feel sorry for her and the choices she's made in her life. I do, she's really pathetic. She had it all and lost it all. A beautiful home, two precious daughters, and a stable marriage. She went from country-club wife to bar-hopping drunk.

Hi~

Before I found this site.
This is what I did. This does not mean, it was the right choice. But at the time, I thougt it was the right thing to do.

When I found out of my H affair. I wrote her an email calling her all sorts of name.
About 2 weeks later, I went to my H job now she also worked there at the time. Thank goodness she left. Anyway I went into her office and introduced myself. The OW showed no remorce. I felt sick just looking at her. She actually told me and thanked me that I sped up the process.

I exposed the affair to their boss and I called her husband. Even though after that, it was no longer physical, but he kept contact with her everyday, several times a day, that kept a emotional and feel sorry for her bond between them. She encouraged him to leave to sort things out and so he did.
Several months later he wanted to come home and for us to work out.
I again met her, get this for lunch. The next day she text messaged him telling him how much she loved him. Us reconciling enraged her. She no longer had control over him.

Now, I have to honestly say, I don't know if I would of done differently today.

The more I think about it. Why did I confronted her.
I wanted to let her know I was not going away easily and I was not giving up on my marriage.
That is something that she wanted me to do. She emphasized on that over and over. She wanted me to go away.
Her quoted statement to me was, "If she was in my shoes, she would dumpt his a**."

In my situation, it was her controlling him.

In all honesty, this marriage should of been done. A lot of wrong, a lot of hurt was done.

A lot...
I'm still dealing with this...nightmare...
This should be a TV sitcom.

OM in my case was smug and antagonsitic. XW had him convinced that I was weak and would do nothing when I confronted him.

He didn't believe I was serious until I showed up at his house on Christmas eve and gave his wife the evidence package.

Lemme tell you, he has no idea just how close he was to appearing on a milk carton.

LOL, I know that feeling. The OM now has my FWW's job (she was his boss) as the A was never exposed at their workplace. And unbelievably he's still engaged to the same fiancee that he cheated on at least twice.

I convinced myself that going to him for the truth may not give the best results because if he said something that contradicted my FWW's story, who would I actually believe? And if he did not contradict my FWW's story in any way, I'd likely believe that they rehearsed their stories together beforehand. It's a no-win situation, really.

I used to alternate between worrying that I might run into OW around town... or might purposely go over to her place to tell her what I think of her.

For a while I felt ucomfortable going to the mall because WH described her as "a real mall rat".

Now I mostly don't think about her (or WXH) very much (and when I do I don't think much OF either of them).

I'm actually sort of surprised that I've never run into OW around town - it's bound to happen eventually. I'm not sure how that will go but am not worried about it. SHE is probably afraid of me and if she has any sense at all will be very embarrassed. It might be that the reason we've never run into each other yet is because she's being careful to stay out of my way LOL.

Hi,

Yes, you're probably right. I think of it often and could even consider it an obsession. Believe me I have the entire conversation scripted in my mind. My motives are not good, though. I really only want to cause her pain. It drives me nuts to think that she simply walks this earth with no consequences for her actions. I look back now and wish I had properly exposed her deeds to her family. She is close with her sister who is a wife with children. I wonder if that would have helped her slither away sooner...probably not.

It's confusing to me to have all of these feelings. Some days I feel so sane and others just squash me like a bug. Last night H and I spoke for a long time. I told him I wanted to do this. He does not understand my need to inflict pain in order to feel better myself. To me, this feels like he's protecting her. I do want her to hurt and I want it to be because I did it. I realize that seems sick, so I fight the urge.

Lets face it we all have been hit hard, really hard. I know I hit rock bottom. I too became obsessive, I was constantly looking for new things and to a point I still find myself doing that still. As for her, I oh boy you have no idea how much i hate her. I finally understand why people react the way they do, and what hate is. I never thought I would hate someone so badly. I still would love to inflict pain upon her. I know this is horrible to say, but I wish her the worse. I hope she will be miserable for the rest of her life. I still have those thoughts. As for my idiotic H, my thoughts are I would love to get a 2X4 with nails on the other side, and whaaammmm.
Hopefully that knock on the head will wake him up and bring some sense to him, as to what he did and how horrible this has been for me and my family....how much pain he has caused.

I have to keep peace here and keep the LB on a possitive. That is a challance in itself and really hard..... and I'm sorry for sounding so nutty. But this is the only place where I can vent and say what I feel.
I hope you all understand....

I didn't apologise because she scares the bejeezus out of me.

Fiori,

This is from a BW who's spent nearly two years in recovery. We are good, and it's from following the MB advice. Are you aware that Dr. Harley says that "no contact" means that NEITHER the wayward nor the betrayed spouse should have ANY contact with OP for life? I have come to understand why he is right. (ManInMotion gave you one very good reason.)

Many, many times, I wanted to confront the OW and tell her what a POS she was. I even fantasized about slashing her tires. Had plenty of opportunity too, since H and she worked in the same building for a year and a half after he recommitted to the marriage (think THAT didn't slow our recovery down?)

After my H broke it off with her, she sent me "anonymous" mailings that were very hurtful, and very mean. She kept pursuing my H for months afterwards. I hated every day my H spent in that office building with her able to pop in any time. I didn't trust him, and I SURE didn't trust her. My baser emotions wanted to cut loose, but my head said, "You're better than that. Show some class." I am happy to say that I took the high road and it did wonders for my self esteem--that part of me that broke into pieces when I learned of my H's treachery. Taking the high road, and keeping her OUT of my life helped me heal. Please hear that.

A bonus was that dpwm the line, I realized that she WAS suffering without a word from me. Examples: *I triggered badly every tme I saw a car like hers, then I realized that SHE had to be miserable every time she saw a car like HIS, once he was gone. *I trigger on HER birthday, but I'm sure she's unhappy when the calendar comes to his--or mine, since she knows when it is. *He chose me, WE are recovered, and SHE is still alone. Because of my own pain, I hadn't realized the trigger door swings both ways. But I see it now.

So hang on, take the high road while you rebuild your marriage, and feel really good about yourself, knowing YOU are the one who owns the "classy" label. SHE is the one who has to look herself in the mirror and feel stupid.

Hard now, but it will get easier. Promise.

fiori,

Let's see, where to start?


I called the OW on d-day and threated her.

After a few days of talking with my H, I actually did call OW again. She had been a friend (not anymore!), and I wanted to hear her side of the story, in order to see if my husband was a huge liar, compare facts, and see what she would say for herself.

She actually told the truth. She apologized, and she cried. Her life is a mess, has been a mess, and continues to be a mess to this day.

She said she was afraid of me, that I would kick her A--. I told her that I probably wouldn't, that I was angry, but couldn't afford bail.

Over the next year, I called her two more times.


So, I suppose that in my case it helped to contact her as a fact-checker. It also helped me know that she was basically a broken person, and allowed me to move into a forgiving position.


I don't know that there is a hard and fast rule about this. But I would say this:

If your purpose in contacting the OW is to vent your anger or get closure to the affair in one conversation with the OW, you won't get satisfaction. The OW will respond in one of a few ways -

1. she will agree with you and apologize,
2. she will just blow you off and leave you just as angry as you were when you called (and she will hang up on you),
3. she won't have any idea what to say to you,
4. she will deny virtually any blame in the problems of your marriage, and tell you to talk to your husband because it is "his" place to deal with it
5. she will tell you your husband lied to her, too
6. she will not even answer your call, or just hang up when she finds out it's you.


The other possibility is that you will stir her up and bring it all back to life in an ugly and mean way.


But in my humble opinion, overall:

There is no "closure". There is only time, and you will heal over time. And the OW? It is NOT ABOUT HER anyway. You absolutely don't need her to heal. You NEED yourself, a plan, and your man.

SB

Flori,

As you can see there are many variables here. Different stages of the OW (some more self-justified and stuck on stupid than others), different levels of the WS and then there is the BS along with their individual character.

What is constant is the pull and need to control. Know that in most cases when the BS gets stronger (mind and heart get in sync and the BS is able to implement personal and marital boundaries) and move forward, then the OP and/or WS get enraged.

That is how the BS can take a pulse on the A and gain control. That piece of knowledge empowers the BS to know where, when and how to pull the strings of the A and lead it to it's destruction.

The destruction of the A requires a plan, a strong plan by the BS. It should not be while emotions are in a vulnerable state. That is why BS' who come here are encouraged to read and learn about plans A & B. In addition to that some of us over the years have developed additional tactics that have helped (i.e. reverse babble, getting one's mind and heart in sync, etc.).

So whether the BS will get closure with a visit to the OW is not 100% predictable. It is a risky factor that has hurt many a BS and family. Most OW's feel entitled. There was a case on MB where the OW came into the family home and started to pick the BSW's jewelry as her own.

Know that the OW and WS have no qualms about rewriting history, lying, scheming against the BS, work, everyone and everything that gets in the way of their A.

That fact puts the BS and family at a definite disadvantage. But it does not totally disarm the BS and family.

Create a personal support group. Learn and implement MB tools and whether you actually confront the OW or not you WILL get closure.

You and your family are worth more than ANY OP or WS (yes even your own WS). But that doesn't entitle you to walk all over them and ruin their lives. It does entitle you to protect yourself, your family and your assets.

Choose wisely.

Take care,
Orchid

foiri,

Whatever you do, don't do it....

I got a confrontation with COW. It was not planned and while I don't regret one thing I said or did on that night, I still WISH there were things I did say to her. I have to say though, I never ever wanted to hit her....don't know why, other than it is not in my nature really, or maybe because I did that to my WS...who knows....I DO know that what I DID say impacted her and WS to the point that it started the "end" of the end for THEM....

And for those who want an apology?? Well, I can say for me it doesn't help (and for the record I don't think Kiwi should apologize to the OP's wife....and here's why...). My counselor told me that in 12 step programs that one should apologize to one that they have wronged in the past UNLESS, to do so would bring the person you are apologizing more pain......This is what happened to me. I did not forgive her, I felt like she was doing it only to relieve HERSELF of guilt. Putting her guilt on my shoulders. I didn't and don't need that. And in all honesty, the whole time I could only think "if you were sorry then WHY???"...

Why would you keep it up?
Why did you continue the pain??
Why did you keep after him??
Why would you do this to your family and mine???

All questions that can never been well answered (except for the addiction theory...)....

And all this did was bring BACK the pain.....

I agree with Orchid....write her a letter. Don't send it, just write your anger out. Put it all out there how you feel, what you think of her, EVERYTHING....then burn it.....

And when you feel this way again, do it again, and again, and again...till its gone.....

Keep your power for YOU....do not give it to her....she does not deserve it.....

And know that only someone who is broken can do something like this to others......

not2fun

Everyone...
I'm not going to do it. I'm ok, just a little obsessive at the moment. I feel like I sitting on the edge of switching back to trusting H but am ill prepared to do it just yet. I believe that once he leaves his current place of employment it might get a bit easier. We are approaching the first anniversary of D-day. This date is freaking me out. It's causing me to look at everything we did leading up to it and question H's motives. It seems very odd to me that anyone can carry on two lives and be seemingly normal. Now, when I look back I realize the tremendous stress H was under during the entire EA. He began exhibiting very strange symptoms physically and even submitted to a complete physical. Usually if a man agrees to that you KNOW they are scared too!

So, now I just wait. I do still fantasize about the day I get to say my peace. Closure, for me, seems unrealistic. Maybe when they no longer get a paycheck cut by the same company. I bought him a b-day gift of the medal and prayer card for St. Joseph the Worker. Apparently he's the patron saint of those searching for employment. He's not even Catholic, but did seem to appreciate it alot.

All of your concern and words are comforting to me. I'm a bit jealous of those who had the opportunity to face their OW/OM head on. I do have one thing stuck in my crawl, though. The very first time I did confront her (way long ago), she offered me this ridiculously cocky statement about 'if I am the driving force that fixes an otherwise stagnant marriage, then I'll know I've done some good.' WHAT???? So, not only does she have a free pass for destroying me and my kids, but she also takes credit for revitalizing my otherwise stale marriage. What a crock!!!

Here's what I need to work on to recover:

-erasing the words my H said to me on D-day
-getting him to understand that at some point he must find a way to let me know that all the lines he fed me about "connection" and "better communication" with OW were wrong.
-get the idea that he compared us out of my head
-hear him apologize for comparing me and OW.

fiori,

There are some things that you won't erase for awhile. My H said some really stupid things during the d-day timeframe. Many of them are gone! I can't remember some of them at all - I'm approaching the 3 year anniversary. So some of the dumb stuff goes away, I promise (and I have a great memory). Other stuff, stuck-stuck-stuck. It's there, but the punch, not there so much. I can honestly say that what he said gave me great pain at the time, and bothered me greatly for a long time afterward. Now, I know the words, but the pain is fading daily. There are still times when I hear those words in my head and I think of them with a slight wince.

I wonder now, if that pain is due to the recall of the pain then, or the memories of the d-day timeframe and all that goes with that time, or the words themselves, or what. I think now that I'm much more analytical toward it, rather than feeling it. I'm able to "choose" not to feel it, I choose my reaction to the words. I don't have to react with pain anymore.


I think that maybe your ideas about communication and better connection with OW can be re-thought. Consider that he was making a comparison of what was going on with him - his efforts were with her, his focus was with her, and his investment was with her. The results, were there......so when you talk with him about his communication and connection with the OW, talk in those terms. Talk about how the investment gets its reward - and that his investment with OW made gains. He was not investing with YOU, so of course the communication and connection was weaker at home. Get him to understand that concept. The love-bank concept of investing to get what you want, and that love grows where it is invested and attended to.

Think about your communication, also. Communication and connection goes two ways. I often talk about safety in communication. Men need to feel safe to say what they want to say - they need to completely believe that when they say something to their wives that their wives will not respond with disdain or disrespect, with a response that flies off the handle, or that twists their words. They need to have complete trust that their wives will listen to the MESSAGE and MEANING, and not parse the exact words they say each and every time they speak.

Most men shoot from the hip when they speak during relationship talks, they don't plan them the way women do. Women tend to have conversations in their heads long before they have actual conversations with other people; when it comes to men, many do not do this. They have conversational "ideas", but not word-for-word role plays that women have. So, men (in general) take a little longer to gather thoughts and words together during these relationship talks (which is why they tend to HATE THEM). They just don't come in prepared like women do - women think about them almost obsessively, and have all these phrases and comebacks almost planned to the word. Men. Just. Don't.

When you have your talks with him, remember this. Remember that he is speaking from his heart, not from a pre-thought script. Give him time to think, and listen first to his message, not to his exact wording. The message is the important thing from the male perspective, and focus there with your heart.


The comparison issue. Ouch. I had a tough time with that, too! My H had to repeat over and over and over, "It was different, not better. DIFFERENT." His whole concept to me was that different is "different". Once he said one can't say oranges or apples are better. They are different. Then, he explained that when it came to emotions, the difference WAS different, and that I made the difference BETTER. That I was better, and if that made sense to me, I was better, and he never wanted anything else.

Over time, I suppose that I have to live with the idea that he is HERE, not there. If there was an element of "better" there, he would be there. If he loved her, he would be there. If he wanted her, needed her, loved her, if she was better for him, took better care of him, he would be there. The concept of comparison is a non-issue. He had a choice. We all have a choice, every single day.

I choose him. He chooses me. We are here. Together. I guess somewhere in the timeline I must have gotten past the comparison thing. I know it bugged the crap out of me at one point, and then, it must have stopped. I don't remember it going away!


An apology for comparing the two of you. He could do that, so ask him for it. Have you asked him for that? If this is that important, then ask for it. And no, it does not take away from the meaning of the apology if you ask for an apology. He may not realize the level of importance to you that it has.

Orchid: See how the OPs feel 'entitled' to your family? It starts with the A but left unchecked it could engulf the entire family and fortune. In my case, the OW felt entitled enough to give me advice! That is how she earned her name PBR (psycho babble rabbit). :MrEEk:

Here's what I need to work on to recover:


Orchid: Schoolbus gave you some good points to ponder. Realize that you can't teach a WS or Xws. That is why identifying your personal and marital boundaries points you in a better direction.

See, the WS' already know they screwed up but don't want to clean up the mess they created via the A. So as long as the WS or Xws stays in this mode, YOU won't have closure and THEY will not recover.

As for the better communication, the book HNHN by Dr. is helpful. Also working with a good MC familiar with MB principles is a good start. That way what you want him to hear c/b given via the MC and probably better received. You need to learn HOW to communicate with your real H and he needs t/d the same. Many a M fail because of this one thing.

In regards of the comparison thingy..... if he did compare u2, that's history. You can't really erase that. But you can know he values you know more than any OP. What helped me was not concentrating on what he did with one OP but rather get him to reassure me that he has a recovery plan to keep ALL OPs out of my life. See that was and still is a strong boundary of mine. This way I know I can undo the past but I certainly am not about to have a repeat of the same in the future.

It took a long time for me to get to the place where I took back the control that belonged to my family. I had to fight the one who was suppose to protect us from hard to get back that control.

The MB concepts here taught me how to meet any WS babble head on and turn it around so my family could benefit and move forward. I haven't stopped.

To this day, when I encounter anyone who acts like a WS, even in a non-A environment (WS attitude), I immediately know how to handle them.

Recognizing when you don't feel safe and then communicating that gives you back the control and puts the responsibility on the one causing problem. Believe me, when that is done you really get to see the real side of those who like to cause trouble.

Take care,
Orchid

to Orchid & Schoolbus...
How do I get pat the fact that one hour ago he told me that now he knows why my f-ing father hated me so much?

He says this because I am still unable to trust him. He went running this morning. i have no problem with this other than the fact that it's exclusionary. I've had two knee surgeries so I cannot run with him and walking ten miles while he runs seems horrible....
Anyway, he left at 7:15am so as to NOT intrude on family time. I respect this as he not a morning person. So, his exact parting words are "i'm leaving now...i'm going to the park". He ALWAYS goes to one certain park. Today he decided to go to a park that is over 1/2 hour away. This is a park that as a family we have discussed going to several times in the last few weeks. He took it upon himself to leave with a very vague explanation as to where he'd be. This is a large trigger for me. But, he feels it's not my write to control everything he does and he has to have something for himself.

As a special 'treat' with the changing weather, he decided to go to the far away park. He called from the park to say where he was. Needless to say, this was disconcerting to me. It became an argument and was not pretty. His parting words were those above. How will I get past that?

IMO, you gotta either:

1. Divorce him, or start the process of separation
2. Have him followed to assure there is no affair
3. Quit fighting and arguing with him, completely, so as not to make him want to leave or start up the affair again.

4. Or a combination of all of these.

Fiori, IMO it sounds like you overreacted. He told you he was going to the park and then he even called you to tell you that he went to a different park. That sounds to me like it was a last minute decision to go to the different park and out of respect for you he called you so that you would now exactly where he was. You discussing going there as a family is probably what made him even think about going there. But this was his early morning run, it was his alone time. Make the plans to go there as a family another time. I don't know where you live, but where I live driving 1/2 to get somewhere is done all the time and not a big deal.

Your H was completely wrong to make that comment about your father, but it could be he is just a dirty fighter. A lot of people wrongly bring up past issues when they fight. Many BS's do it, they can be fighting about something like the correct discipline for their child and it turns into a fight about the A that happened 2 years ago.

So bascially it sounds to me like you need to apologize to your H for overreacting and one would hope he would apologize for his hurtful comment about your father.

Thank you...I totally agree.
I struggle daily with the realization that there were so many nights that I thought H was doing one thing but may have actually been doing another. While he never took actual clock time away from our family, he did carve out alot of his sleeping time and work time to nurture a bond with OW. Because they are still only seperated by a city street I am ill prepared to cross over to the next level of recovery.

As for fighting fair -- sadly we are both bad at this. We have never been very productive in this arena and will go to counseling to try to make some strides. I started reading HNHN last night and the LB section was startling. I see so much of us there that it's a bit scary. I am highlighting alot and re-reading as needed. I will try to have H read it too. I felt very confident a few months ago and threw away our questionairs...I think we might do them again and put them away for future reference. I'm just not there yet. I cannot trust this man. I believe he may be making strides that I am not willing to see. It's as if I'm afraid to let go of the pain...then he'll just act like it never happened.

Long time ago someone suggested that I use this as a tool. Perhaps...I will do some internal digging and try to get to the WHY I cannot believe him. We are approaching D-day anniversary and it has me totally freaked out. Too much pain, too many memories...I suppose it's time to make new ones.

For the love of .... Stella! What is your problem these days? ALL of your posts are just rude.

Fiori, I just wanted to wish you luck. You are such a level headed, smart woman. You know your limitations, you are human, you are who you are. You can only do so much. You can only forget so much. If you are always waiting for the other shoe to drop (which in your situation, was that awful comment your H said), its hard to get to the place of peace.