Here's what I want to know...
Can I, the BS open a can of worms many, many months later and actually have a conversation of sorts with the OW? I feel like, to this day, I have soooo much anger that is inside me for this woman. Yes, I realize it may be misdirected and I do deal with H on a daily basis. We are getting there, very slowly, but getting there in spite of this all. Even though the EA did not turn physical I have so much crap running in my head that I cannot get out.

Tomorrow is H's birthday. Mine is next week. This makes me think of this time last year. What a fool I was. I feel duped. He probably had little flirtations with the piece of crap -- now known as POC -- during the day and then came home to the unknowing wife for a perfect birthday evening. Really, I feel stupid. But, that is not the point here. I feel like I need to unload a bit on her. She initially came into my home under the pretense of being my 'friend'. That did not materialize -- obviously. But, we had a face to face once and she denied up one side and down another that she had any feelings for H. 7 days later she professed her undying love & devotion.

Now, I do get it....H is the problem here. But, this creepy POC waltz' around without a care in the world. It took her several months to finally slink away, but I feel I don't have closure. I doubt seriously H would care. Actually, he'd probably discourage it under the pretense of waking a sleeping giant. Do I have the right to tell her what little I think of her? Am I just barking up the wrong tree? I dream of running into her one day so I can really let her have it! Does this feeling ever go away?

It's been 7 months since there way any attempt at contact. To be honest with you all, POC still works at same company. She is NOT in the same building. She is only seperated by a city street. If a sink hole opened up and she fell in I'd be ok with that. I feel so immature saying some of this stuff but I have so much to say to her that some days it hurts. Maybe I should just get some counseling and get on with my life. But, it's so tempting. Thoughts? Comments? Concerns?

Oh, Fiori. I so feel for you. I want to do the same damn thing, and I just found out this weekend.

I was hoping it would get easier, but reading this makes me sad. If I were you (and I kind of am), I would want to. But I dont know if that is right or not.

I hope you eventually come to peace with it all.

it would be a very bad idea. It would not go the way you hope it will. There would not be closure - only more questions.

(((((fiori)))))

WOF,
Believe me, I know it would be a bad idea. Somewhere deep down inside the rational and intelligent woman I used to be is still lurking. It's still amazing to me, no matter how many of these stories I read, that this activity is so prevelant. I would NEVER consider gunning after a man I knew was married. She truely preyed on his weakness and his ego allowed him to become sucked in. I totally fault her for the beginning and totally fault him for when it ended. It's just so aggrivating.

I feel the same way. Yes, he is at fault for allowing himself to be open to her luring him in, but she went after him - and made no apologies about it. It makes me sick - and I hope she DOES fall in a hole and die.

You might consider journaling to let out your feelings, or write a "letter" that you never send. You can even have a little ceremony where you burn it in a fire after you feel like you have held onto it long enough-your anger and your words can both go up in the flames. It might help give you the closure you need, without reopening the can of worms so to speak. Sometimes it just feels really good to get the words out, and it doesn't necessarily mean she has to hear them. Or better yet, make your husband sit in as the dummy.

Ok, so we agree that it would be a bad idea to confront her, right?

Perhaps just venting here would help?

Let me tell you how I feel about my Ex's OW#1.

I had never met her before. he left on a Wednesday, and moved right in w/ her. About a week later, I was driving into my driveway, actually feeling pretty good for a change, when all of the sudden I looked up, and saw the 2 bit Ho standing in my front yard. He was in the house getting some stuff, and she was waiting out front. I started SCREAMING. I am not a yeller/screamer by nature, so this reaction was shocking.

WHAT IS SHE DOING HERE!! THIS IS MY HOUSE!! MY SANCTUARY!! SHE HAS NO BUSINESS COMING HERE!

And he came running out of the house, the little weasel that he is, saying that she just came over to help him. (I had come home early that day - they never expected to see me there)
She turned and ran to his (our!!!) truck and got in quickly. he got in and drove away. Later he even had the nerve to tell me that "she really felt bad"

Later, I replayed that vision a million times in my mind, and I came up with a lot of things I wish I had said, or done. One thing in particular - I wished I had hit her with a baseball bat! I have honestly had that through cross my mind. Of course, I am soooo thankful that I did not hit her - she would have just forever used that against me as further proof that his W was nuts, and he had every right to cheat on her.

anyway, I honestly believe that the best way to get revenge on these cheaters, is to just leave them alone, and let them self destruct on their own. I fully believe that "Karma" or Gods will, takes over, when we stay out of the way.

The temptation is there for me still. She'd probably sh&t a brick if I showed up on her door step. LOL I told her she was a POC (via phone) but there were many things left unsaid that till this day bug me for not saying. I know I should let it go because she probably is miserable and feels like an idiot for wh0ring herself to some guy who (if she had half a brain to realize it) treated her like one. Her husband gave her a big FO too so she had to deal with that.

For the rest of her life anytime her girlfriends find themselves in the situation of being cheated on and spouting off what a homewrecking sl&t OW is, she'll have to live with the fact that they are talking about HER. Should her children ever boast that their mother would NEVER cheat, hurt people etc....she will have to feel the dagger from their words. I don't need to do or say anything to her. She's made her own life a living hell. However, I do still have thoughts of adding fuel to the fire so she burns to a crisp.

I go between hoping she drops dead and her unrepentent soul burns in hell to hoping she is miserable for the rest of her life to indifference because I have better things to worry about.

Do not let POC know that you have these feelings for her, it will only give her power.

I have fantasized about running into the xOW and what I would say/do. I can be a good actress, so I would smile and give her a big hug and tell her that I have been wanting to thank her for showing my H what life would be like with her because it has made him so appreciative of me that he now treats me like a princess. I would then turn and strut away (I have this casual sexy walk that men and women love).

Basically I would want to leave her feeling like my life is wonderful and that she was such a POC that moving in with her was all it took for my H to come running home. I am better than her and I would want her to know that I know that and that my H knows that.

She is a weak person and I am pretty sure this would hurt her way more than anything else that I could say or do.

I have a friend who years ago was an OW and the BW did this and it crushed her. That is where I got the idea.

I can relate to how you feel. If I remember what you have said about your OW, she was the one who went so far as to visit your MIL to enlist her help in busting up your M, right? What a crazy -----!

Can I use your thread as an opportunity to vent about my H's OW?He really was the one who pursued her but she fully enjoyed it and encouraged him.

When he left his workplace and told his friends it was due to their relationship, she told everyone that yes that they were talking and texting but that she had made it clear to him that "you won't be getting anything from me" (another coworker relayed this to me after the fact...)

So she basically blamed the whole EA on him and failed to mention to all his coworkers that a)she was also calling/texting him; b)she knew he was keeping it a secret from me; c)she was keeping it a secret from her fiance; d)they had discussed "feelings" about each other; e)they had gone out on an outing just the two of them together; f) he had asked her if she would prefer he let her figure her feelings out and stop calling her and she told him, no, keep calling me.

I have fantasized about sending her a letter and cc'ing it to all my H's former coworkers so that they can all hear the real truth...but I won't....

Sorry to TJ but it felt really good to vent about this!!!

It's interesting because I've been musing over my hatred of the OW and my Wstbx has no, nor will never have the"F" designation. I've actually wondered if I would swerve if she walked in front of my car. On the one hand I feel terrible that I would hesitate at such a decision. After all, I swerve for squirrels and other rodents. But she truly is lower than a slimy cockroach in my mind. Though I have no desire to get WstbxH back, I can't help feeling that this woman has violated the very core of my being. She infected me with her diseases and stole my life. Even though my life is better without Wstbx (and I don't excuse him of any blame), I didn't know that at the time. She is a parasite that should be exterminated.

And yes I've seen her lately and even made an idiot of myself but I have not (yet) struck her or spoken a word to her. She is an ugly, scheming, deceitful piece of trash that is not worthy of my acknowledgement. I pity those who are related to her.

This is wonderful!!!!
I read here ages ago of a FOW who said the BW walked up to her, looked her up and down with a completly dismissive glance and then walked away. I have been practising that look but this is so much better.
Still would want to give the b*tch a slap tho

Flori,

Your feelings are quite normal for a BS who has not attained closure yet.

While the suggestions NOT to contact the OW is good, not having a plan on recovery makes that vision of the need to contact play in one's mind more times than it should. In some cases, that eventually leads to contact and more disappointment.

So let's take it one step further. You know it isn't healthy to contact a germ invested varmit like the OW, right? (I might get edited for calling the OW a varmit. LOL!!!

Ok, so what can you do?

1. It was suggested to journal. That is a good idea. I did that one. Later I got to go back and read where I was vs where I am today. I still keep that info.

2. Ask your Xws/H to help you with recovery. If you feel it is safe, let him know you want to contact the OW. I did that. It was sure a good way to get reassurance from the then Xws. He certainly didn't want me to contact the OW (PBR - psycho babble rabbit).

3. Get with a good MC and develop a solid recovery plan for both of you. Recovery is not one sided you must each recovery individually and then as a couple. One helps the other to recover as well.

That's for starters. Helping others (i.e. like being supportive on MB helps).

Ok, if you want more I can share with you some actual OW contact experiences as I am sure many others can. But they c/b hilarious and scary. You sure you want that?

Take care,
Orchid

I often see the OM's wife. A couple of months ago I was in our local shopping area and I turned the corner and quite literally nearly walked right into her.

She looked briefly at me then looked right through me as though I didn't exist. I slunk off to my car feeling like a POS.

Honestly, her reaction to me was worth a thousand rantings or "having it out with me". I felt like something on the bottom of her shoe.

I often wonder what I'd say if she did talk to me. I would apologise. I would let her take any feelings of hatred she has for me out on me. I deserve it.

I think Orchids post is full of great advice. I did want to comment on my experience when I told my FWH that I was wanting to contact xOW. My reason for wanting to contact her was because I was still not believing him that she was not still trying to contact him and I said in a threatening way that maybe I should just call her. My H said in a sad and tired voice that if that would help me believe him and if it was what I wanted to do then maybe I should. I could feel his pain and sadness and I knew it was because he really wanted me to be able to trust him again and feel safe with him again. I knew in my heart that he was not contacting her and it helped me to stop wanting to confront her and ask questions. That was when I began to really focus on all the wonderful things my H does everyday to show me his love and my thoughts of contacting xOW became less and less.

KiwiJ,



Just curious why you never apologized to her, especially if you live where you do run into her from time to time. An apology to my FOM's W was high on my "to do" list once I confessed.

At first she said she was unable to accept my apology, which I completely understood. Several months later I received a note in the mail from her offering forgiveness, which I followed up on so she knew I didn't just chuck her note in the garbage. I wanted her to know I did care about her feelings and what I did to her.

Since I'm too lazy to type it again here is a link to a post with what the actual notes said. (The only changes I made were to remove our names.) You will have to scroll down a bit to find my post.

Apology to FOM's W

I hope FOM's W doesn't spend one second of her day thinking about me. I hope FOM and his W have been able to recover and move on to have a fabulous marriage.

Maybe it's different because I knew her, but like I told her in my note I am approachable if she ever felt the need.

If she truly did forgive me when she sent the note she certainly was able to forgive me much faster than I was able to forgive myself. I beat myself up for at least 2 more years and couldn't forgive myself for what I did. Thoughts of her and how she felt were almost a constant in my mind for a very long time.

I guess my point is some of us FOW really do care about how the BS feels.

edited to add: To answer the original question Fiori had, if the FOW in your case is truly remorseful it might be ok and you can get answers. If she is not, it might just add more of a problem for you by creating even more questions.

Someone on another board once told me "Closure comes from within." I found that to be very true. I had to find all I needed within myself to finally be able to truly let everything go.

LC

Hi Fiori:

I'm the BS, my W is a FWW. I've considered a number of times having a conversation with the OM about the A, but primarily to confirm what my FWW's told me about it, as some of the things she's said are, to put it bluntly, a bit unbelievable. The OM has already apologized for what he did (if you can consider shaking my hand and telling me "sorry" as a suitable apology for destroying my M), and in any case getting a more sincere one from him and/or some sign of remorse is not really high on my to-do list.

However, every time I considered it, I eventually came to the conclusion that it was not really worth it.

Yes, you're probably right. I think of it often and could even consider it an obsession. Believe me I have the entire conversation scripted in my mind. My motives are not good, though. I really only want to cause her pain. It drives me nuts to think that she simply walks this earth with no consequences for her actions. I look back now and wish I had properly exposed her deeds to her family. She is close with her sister who is a wife with children. I wonder if that would have helped her slither away sooner...probably not.

It's confusing to me to have all of these feelings. Some days I feel so sane and others just squash me like a bug. Last night H and I spoke for a long time. I told him I wanted to do this. He does not understand my need to inflict pain in order to feel better myself. To me, this feels like he's protecting her. I do want her to hurt and I want it to be because I did it. I realize that seems sick, so I fight the urge.

I am right on the edge here. I seem to struggle with letting go of my distrust of H. The hardest part is the location. He does still work at the same company, although in different buildings. But, I'm not naive. I know there could be a chance meeting...

He is absolute in his promise that he'd never fall off this road again, but I never thought he would in the first place, so my trust is limited. I want to believe everything he tells me. I want to put away the pain and mistrust. But, I struggle with letting it go. I suppose, if I have to be honest, that I'm not ready to 'let him off the hook'. I feel stupid when I say that...but it's true. He's a very basic guy. Once I let this go he'll just move on as if it never happened. I want him to realize what I feel and help me get over it. Lots of questions and so few answers.

Kiwi,
I too, wonder why you did not apologize. Well, more I wonder if you ever considered it. The POC, I believe shoud apologize to me and to my kids for her part in this debacle. I get irritated when I imagine her bebopping through town with her little dumpy pony tail happy as a lark. I carry the bagage of her selfishness. Does she feel anything? The OW is really not anything you would consider to be demonic or flashy. She's your basic girl who's a bit dumpy and ill informed. If you saw her you'd put her in a Dove soap commercial. That's weird to me. All the OW on tv are boobalicious vixons. Not this one.

So, under the guise of sweetness, she continues to breath my air and live her life. I suppose she could be unhappy or sad. I think I'd like that.

I'm off track. Sorry. I just really want to know if you EVER thought about doing it. I almost wish OW would. If she initiated the conversation I think I might be somewhat kind. Not gushing, just kind.

I think it wouldn't be closure, but a chance to size up and compare the OW.

That's what men do when the confront an interloper.

I had conversations with both of the OW in my life and both during the heat of the A(s). The first (was over the phone) and she declared she didn't know we weren't divorced and promised to back off. She lied and even made the comment once to my husband that if he ever slept around on her, IT'D BETTER NOT BE WITH YOUR WIFE, ANYONE BUT HER. Idiot.

I met the second OW in person and she admitted that my H and I would probably get back together because it was obvious he still loved me. We walked away, not really friends, but with an understanding.

Today, every now and then I still have visions of running into OW#1 in person, confronting her to let her know that H and I are fully recovered and to tell her that I feel sorry for her and the choices she's made in her life. I do, she's really pathetic. She had it all and lost it all. A beautiful home, two precious daughters, and a stable marriage. She went from country-club wife to bar-hopping drunk.

Hi~

Before I found this site.
This is what I did. This does not mean, it was the right choice. But at the time, I thougt it was the right thing to do.

When I found out of my H affair. I wrote her an email calling her all sorts of name.
About 2 weeks later, I went to my H job now she also worked there at the time. Thank goodness she left. Anyway I went into her office and introduced myself. The OW showed no remorce. I felt sick just looking at her. She actually told me and thanked me that I sped up the process.

I exposed the affair to their boss and I called her husband. Even though after that, it was no longer physical, but he kept contact with her everyday, several times a day, that kept a emotional and feel sorry for her bond between them. She encouraged him to leave to sort things out and so he did.
Several months later he wanted to come home and for us to work out.
I again met her, get this for lunch. The next day she text messaged him telling him how much she loved him. Us reconciling enraged her. She no longer had control over him.

Now, I have to honestly say, I don't know if I would of done differently today.

The more I think about it. Why did I confronted her.
I wanted to let her know I was not going away easily and I was not giving up on my marriage.
That is something that she wanted me to do. She emphasized on that over and over. She wanted me to go away.
Her quoted statement to me was, "If she was in my shoes, she would dumpt his a**."

In my situation, it was her controlling him.

In all honesty, this marriage should of been done. A lot of wrong, a lot of hurt was done.

A lot...
I'm still dealing with this...nightmare...
This should be a TV sitcom.

OM in my case was smug and antagonsitic. XW had him convinced that I was weak and would do nothing when I confronted him.

He didn't believe I was serious until I showed up at his house on Christmas eve and gave his wife the evidence package.

Lemme tell you, he has no idea just how close he was to appearing on a milk carton.

LOL, I know that feeling. The OM now has my FWW's job (she was his boss) as the A was never exposed at their workplace. And unbelievably he's still engaged to the same fiancee that he cheated on at least twice.

I convinced myself that going to him for the truth may not give the best results because if he said something that contradicted my FWW's story, who would I actually believe? And if he did not contradict my FWW's story in any way, I'd likely believe that they rehearsed their stories together beforehand. It's a no-win situation, really.

I used to alternate between worrying that I might run into OW around town... or might purposely go over to her place to tell her what I think of her.

For a while I felt ucomfortable going to the mall because WH described her as "a real mall rat".

Now I mostly don't think about her (or WXH) very much (and when I do I don't think much OF either of them).

I'm actually sort of surprised that I've never run into OW around town - it's bound to happen eventually. I'm not sure how that will go but am not worried about it. SHE is probably afraid of me and if she has any sense at all will be very embarrassed. It might be that the reason we've never run into each other yet is because she's being careful to stay out of my way LOL.

Hi,

Yes, you're probably right. I think of it often and could even consider it an obsession. Believe me I have the entire conversation scripted in my mind. My motives are not good, though. I really only want to cause her pain. It drives me nuts to think that she simply walks this earth with no consequences for her actions. I look back now and wish I had properly exposed her deeds to her family. She is close with her sister who is a wife with children. I wonder if that would have helped her slither away sooner...probably not.

It's confusing to me to have all of these feelings. Some days I feel so sane and others just squash me like a bug. Last night H and I spoke for a long time. I told him I wanted to do this. He does not understand my need to inflict pain in order to feel better myself. To me, this feels like he's protecting her. I do want her to hurt and I want it to be because I did it. I realize that seems sick, so I fight the urge.

Lets face it we all have been hit hard, really hard. I know I hit rock bottom. I too became obsessive, I was constantly looking for new things and to a point I still find myself doing that still. As for her, I oh boy you have no idea how much i hate her. I finally understand why people react the way they do, and what hate is. I never thought I would hate someone so badly. I still would love to inflict pain upon her. I know this is horrible to say, but I wish her the worse. I hope she will be miserable for the rest of her life. I still have those thoughts. As for my idiotic H, my thoughts are I would love to get a 2X4 with nails on the other side, and whaaammmm.
Hopefully that knock on the head will wake him up and bring some sense to him, as to what he did and how horrible this has been for me and my family....how much pain he has caused.

I have to keep peace here and keep the LB on a possitive. That is a challance in itself and really hard..... and I'm sorry for sounding so nutty. But this is the only place where I can vent and say what I feel.
I hope you all understand....

I didn't apologise because she scares the bejeezus out of me.

Fiori,

This is from a BW who's spent nearly two years in recovery. We are good, and it's from following the MB advice. Are you aware that Dr. Harley says that "no contact" means that NEITHER the wayward nor the betrayed spouse should have ANY contact with OP for life? I have come to understand why he is right. (ManInMotion gave you one very good reason.)

Many, many times, I wanted to confront the OW and tell her what a POS she was. I even fantasized about slashing her tires. Had plenty of opportunity too, since H and she worked in the same building for a year and a half after he recommitted to the marriage (think THAT didn't slow our recovery down?)

After my H broke it off with her, she sent me "anonymous" mailings that were very hurtful, and very mean. She kept pursuing my H for months afterwards. I hated every day my H spent in that office building with her able to pop in any time. I didn't trust him, and I SURE didn't trust her. My baser emotions wanted to cut loose, but my head said, "You're better than that. Show some class." I am happy to say that I took the high road and it did wonders for my self esteem--that part of me that broke into pieces when I learned of my H's treachery. Taking the high road, and keeping her OUT of my life helped me heal. Please hear that.

A bonus was that dpwm the line, I realized that she WAS suffering without a word from me. Examples: *I triggered badly every tme I saw a car like hers, then I realized that SHE had to be miserable every time she saw a car like HIS, once he was gone. *I trigger on HER birthday, but I'm sure she's unhappy when the calendar comes to his--or mine, since she knows when it is. *He chose me, WE are recovered, and SHE is still alone. Because of my own pain, I hadn't realized the trigger door swings both ways. But I see it now.

So hang on, take the high road while you rebuild your marriage, and feel really good about yourself, knowing YOU are the one who owns the "classy" label. SHE is the one who has to look herself in the mirror and feel stupid.

Hard now, but it will get easier. Promise.

fiori,

Let's see, where to start?


I called the OW on d-day and threated her.

After a few days of talking with my H, I actually did call OW again. She had been a friend (not anymore!), and I wanted to hear her side of the story, in order to see if my husband was a huge liar, compare facts, and see what she would say for herself.

She actually told the truth. She apologized, and she cried. Her life is a mess, has been a mess, and continues to be a mess to this day.

She said she was afraid of me, that I would kick her A--. I told her that I probably wouldn't, that I was angry, but couldn't afford bail.

Over the next year, I called her two more times.


So, I suppose that in my case it helped to contact her as a fact-checker. It also helped me know that she was basically a broken person, and allowed me to move into a forgiving position.


I don't know that there is a hard and fast rule about this. But I would say this:

If your purpose in contacting the OW is to vent your anger or get closure to the affair in one conversation with the OW, you won't get satisfaction. The OW will respond in one of a few ways -

1. she will agree with you and apologize,
2. she will just blow you off and leave you just as angry as you were when you called (and she will hang up on you),
3. she won't have any idea what to say to you,
4. she will deny virtually any blame in the problems of your marriage, and tell you to talk to your husband because it is "his" place to deal with it
5. she will tell you your husband lied to her, too
6. she will not even answer your call, or just hang up when she finds out it's you.


The other possibility is that you will stir her up and bring it all back to life in an ugly and mean way.


But in my humble opinion, overall:

There is no "closure". There is only time, and you will heal over time. And the OW? It is NOT ABOUT HER anyway. You absolutely don't need her to heal. You NEED yourself, a plan, and your man.

SB

Flori,

As you can see there are many variables here. Different stages of the OW (some more self-justified and stuck on stupid than others), different levels of the WS and then there is the BS along with their individual character.

What is constant is the pull and need to control. Know that in most cases when the BS gets stronger (mind and heart get in sync and the BS is able to implement personal and marital boundaries) and move forward, then the OP and/or WS get enraged.

That is how the BS can take a pulse on the A and gain control. That piece of knowledge empowers the BS to know where, when and how to pull the strings of the A and lead it to it's destruction.

The destruction of the A requires a plan, a strong plan by the BS. It should not be while emotions are in a vulnerable state. That is why BS' who come here are encouraged to read and learn about plans A & B. In addition to that some of us over the years have developed additional tactics that have helped (i.e. reverse babble, getting one's mind and heart in sync, etc.).

So whether the BS will get closure with a visit to the OW is not 100% predictable. It is a risky factor that has hurt many a BS and family. Most OW's feel entitled. There was a case on MB where the OW came into the family home and started to pick the BSW's jewelry as her own.

Know that the OW and WS have no qualms about rewriting history, lying, scheming against the BS, work, everyone and everything that gets in the way of their A.

That fact puts the BS and family at a definite disadvantage. But it does not totally disarm the BS and family.

Create a personal support group. Learn and implement MB tools and whether you actually confront the OW or not you WILL get closure.

You and your family are worth more than ANY OP or WS (yes even your own WS). But that doesn't entitle you to walk all over them and ruin their lives. It does entitle you to protect yourself, your family and your assets.

Choose wisely.

Take care,
Orchid

foiri,

Whatever you do, don't do it....

I got a confrontation with COW. It was not planned and while I don't regret one thing I said or did on that night, I still WISH there were things I did say to her. I have to say though, I never ever wanted to hit her....don't know why, other than it is not in my nature really, or maybe because I did that to my WS...who knows....I DO know that what I DID say impacted her and WS to the point that it started the "end" of the end for THEM....

And for those who want an apology?? Well, I can say for me it doesn't help (and for the record I don't think Kiwi should apologize to the OP's wife....and here's why...). My counselor told me that in 12 step programs that one should apologize to one that they have wronged in the past UNLESS, to do so would bring the person you are apologizing more pain......This is what happened to me. I did not forgive her, I felt like she was doing it only to relieve HERSELF of guilt. Putting her guilt on my shoulders. I didn't and don't need that. And in all honesty, the whole time I could only think "if you were sorry then WHY???"...

Why would you keep it up?
Why did you continue the pain??
Why did you keep after him??
Why would you do this to your family and mine???

All questions that can never been well answered (except for the addiction theory...)....

And all this did was bring BACK the pain.....

I agree with Orchid....write her a letter. Don't send it, just write your anger out. Put it all out there how you feel, what you think of her, EVERYTHING....then burn it.....

And when you feel this way again, do it again, and again, and again...till its gone.....

Keep your power for YOU....do not give it to her....she does not deserve it.....

And know that only someone who is broken can do something like this to others......

not2fun

Everyone...
I'm not going to do it. I'm ok, just a little obsessive at the moment. I feel like I sitting on the edge of switching back to trusting H but am ill prepared to do it just yet. I believe that once he leaves his current place of employment it might get a bit easier. We are approaching the first anniversary of D-day. This date is freaking me out. It's causing me to look at everything we did leading up to it and question H's motives. It seems very odd to me that anyone can carry on two lives and be seemingly normal. Now, when I look back I realize the tremendous stress H was under during the entire EA. He began exhibiting very strange symptoms physically and even submitted to a complete physical. Usually if a man agrees to that you KNOW they are scared too!

So, now I just wait. I do still fantasize about the day I get to say my peace. Closure, for me, seems unrealistic. Maybe when they no longer get a paycheck cut by the same company. I bought him a b-day gift of the medal and prayer card for St. Joseph the Worker. Apparently he's the patron saint of those searching for employment. He's not even Catholic, but did seem to appreciate it alot.

All of your concern and words are comforting to me. I'm a bit jealous of those who had the opportunity to face their OW/OM head on. I do have one thing stuck in my crawl, though. The very first time I did confront her (way long ago), she offered me this ridiculously cocky statement about 'if I am the driving force that fixes an otherwise stagnant marriage, then I'll know I've done some good.' WHAT???? So, not only does she have a free pass for destroying me and my kids, but she also takes credit for revitalizing my otherwise stale marriage. What a crock!!!

Here's what I need to work on to recover:

-erasing the words my H said to me on D-day
-getting him to understand that at some point he must find a way to let me know that all the lines he fed me about "connection" and "better communication" with OW were wrong.
-get the idea that he compared us out of my head
-hear him apologize for comparing me and OW.

fiori,

There are some things that you won't erase for awhile. My H said some really stupid things during the d-day timeframe. Many of them are gone! I can't remember some of them at all - I'm approaching the 3 year anniversary. So some of the dumb stuff goes away, I promise (and I have a great memory). Other stuff, stuck-stuck-stuck. It's there, but the punch, not there so much. I can honestly say that what he said gave me great pain at the time, and bothered me greatly for a long time afterward. Now, I know the words, but the pain is fading daily. There are still times when I hear those words in my head and I think of them with a slight wince.

I wonder now, if that pain is due to the recall of the pain then, or the memories of the d-day timeframe and all that goes with that time, or the words themselves, or what. I think now that I'm much more analytical toward it, rather than feeling it. I'm able to "choose" not to feel it, I choose my reaction to the words. I don't have to react with pain anymore.


I think that maybe your ideas about communication and better connection with OW can be re-thought. Consider that he was making a comparison of what was going on with him - his efforts were with her, his focus was with her, and his investment was with her. The results, were there......so when you talk with him about his communication and connection with the OW, talk in those terms. Talk about how the investment gets its reward - and that his investment with OW made gains. He was not investing with YOU, so of course the communication and connection was weaker at home. Get him to understand that concept. The love-bank concept of investing to get what you want, and that love grows where it is invested and attended to.

Think about your communication, also. Communication and connection goes two ways. I often talk about safety in communication. Men need to feel safe to say what they want to say - they need to completely believe that when they say something to their wives that their wives will not respond with disdain or disrespect, with a response that flies off the handle, or that twists their words. They need to have complete trust that their wives will listen to the MESSAGE and MEANING, and not parse the exact words they say each and every time they speak.

Most men shoot from the hip when they speak during relationship talks, they don't plan them the way women do. Women tend to have conversations in their heads long before they have actual conversations with other people; when it comes to men, many do not do this. They have conversational "ideas", but not word-for-word role plays that women have. So, men (in general) take a little longer to gather thoughts and words together during these relationship talks (which is why they tend to HATE THEM). They just don't come in prepared like women do - women think about them almost obsessively, and have all these phrases and comebacks almost planned to the word. Men. Just. Don't.

When you have your talks with him, remember this. Remember that he is speaking from his heart, not from a pre-thought script. Give him time to think, and listen first to his message, not to his exact wording. The message is the important thing from the male perspective, and focus there with your heart.


The comparison issue. Ouch. I had a tough time with that, too! My H had to repeat over and over and over, "It was different, not better. DIFFERENT." His whole concept to me was that different is "different". Once he said one can't say oranges or apples are better. They are different. Then, he explained that when it came to emotions, the difference WAS different, and that I made the difference BETTER. That I was better, and if that made sense to me, I was better, and he never wanted anything else.

Over time, I suppose that I have to live with the idea that he is HERE, not there. If there was an element of "better" there, he would be there. If he loved her, he would be there. If he wanted her, needed her, loved her, if she was better for him, took better care of him, he would be there. The concept of comparison is a non-issue. He had a choice. We all have a choice, every single day.

I choose him. He chooses me. We are here. Together. I guess somewhere in the timeline I must have gotten past the comparison thing. I know it bugged the crap out of me at one point, and then, it must have stopped. I don't remember it going away!


An apology for comparing the two of you. He could do that, so ask him for it. Have you asked him for that? If this is that important, then ask for it. And no, it does not take away from the meaning of the apology if you ask for an apology. He may not realize the level of importance to you that it has.

Orchid: See how the OPs feel 'entitled' to your family? It starts with the A but left unchecked it could engulf the entire family and fortune. In my case, the OW felt entitled enough to give me advice! That is how she earned her name PBR (psycho babble rabbit). :MrEEk:

Here's what I need to work on to recover:


Orchid: Schoolbus gave you some good points to ponder. Realize that you can't teach a WS or Xws. That is why identifying your personal and marital boundaries points you in a better direction.

See, the WS' already know they screwed up but don't want to clean up the mess they created via the A. So as long as the WS or Xws stays in this mode, YOU won't have closure and THEY will not recover.

As for the better communication, the book HNHN by Dr. is helpful. Also working with a good MC familiar with MB principles is a good start. That way what you want him to hear c/b given via the MC and probably better received. You need to learn HOW to communicate with your real H and he needs t/d the same. Many a M fail because of this one thing.

In regards of the comparison thingy..... if he did compare u2, that's history. You can't really erase that. But you can know he values you know more than any OP. What helped me was not concentrating on what he did with one OP but rather get him to reassure me that he has a recovery plan to keep ALL OPs out of my life. See that was and still is a strong boundary of mine. This way I know I can undo the past but I certainly am not about to have a repeat of the same in the future.

It took a long time for me to get to the place where I took back the control that belonged to my family. I had to fight the one who was suppose to protect us from hard to get back that control.

The MB concepts here taught me how to meet any WS babble head on and turn it around so my family could benefit and move forward. I haven't stopped.

To this day, when I encounter anyone who acts like a WS, even in a non-A environment (WS attitude), I immediately know how to handle them.

Recognizing when you don't feel safe and then communicating that gives you back the control and puts the responsibility on the one causing problem. Believe me, when that is done you really get to see the real side of those who like to cause trouble.

Take care,
Orchid

to Orchid & Schoolbus...
How do I get pat the fact that one hour ago he told me that now he knows why my f-ing father hated me so much?

He says this because I am still unable to trust him. He went running this morning. i have no problem with this other than the fact that it's exclusionary. I've had two knee surgeries so I cannot run with him and walking ten miles while he runs seems horrible....
Anyway, he left at 7:15am so as to NOT intrude on family time. I respect this as he not a morning person. So, his exact parting words are "i'm leaving now...i'm going to the park". He ALWAYS goes to one certain park. Today he decided to go to a park that is over 1/2 hour away. This is a park that as a family we have discussed going to several times in the last few weeks. He took it upon himself to leave with a very vague explanation as to where he'd be. This is a large trigger for me. But, he feels it's not my write to control everything he does and he has to have something for himself.

As a special 'treat' with the changing weather, he decided to go to the far away park. He called from the park to say where he was. Needless to say, this was disconcerting to me. It became an argument and was not pretty. His parting words were those above. How will I get past that?

IMO, you gotta either:

1. Divorce him, or start the process of separation
2. Have him followed to assure there is no affair
3. Quit fighting and arguing with him, completely, so as not to make him want to leave or start up the affair again.

4. Or a combination of all of these.

Fiori, IMO it sounds like you overreacted. He told you he was going to the park and then he even called you to tell you that he went to a different park. That sounds to me like it was a last minute decision to go to the different park and out of respect for you he called you so that you would now exactly where he was. You discussing going there as a family is probably what made him even think about going there. But this was his early morning run, it was his alone time. Make the plans to go there as a family another time. I don't know where you live, but where I live driving 1/2 to get somewhere is done all the time and not a big deal.

Your H was completely wrong to make that comment about your father, but it could be he is just a dirty fighter. A lot of people wrongly bring up past issues when they fight. Many BS's do it, they can be fighting about something like the correct discipline for their child and it turns into a fight about the A that happened 2 years ago.

So bascially it sounds to me like you need to apologize to your H for overreacting and one would hope he would apologize for his hurtful comment about your father.

Thank you...I totally agree.
I struggle daily with the realization that there were so many nights that I thought H was doing one thing but may have actually been doing another. While he never took actual clock time away from our family, he did carve out alot of his sleeping time and work time to nurture a bond with OW. Because they are still only seperated by a city street I am ill prepared to cross over to the next level of recovery.

As for fighting fair -- sadly we are both bad at this. We have never been very productive in this arena and will go to counseling to try to make some strides. I started reading HNHN last night and the LB section was startling. I see so much of us there that it's a bit scary. I am highlighting alot and re-reading as needed. I will try to have H read it too. I felt very confident a few months ago and threw away our questionairs...I think we might do them again and put them away for future reference. I'm just not there yet. I cannot trust this man. I believe he may be making strides that I am not willing to see. It's as if I'm afraid to let go of the pain...then he'll just act like it never happened.

Long time ago someone suggested that I use this as a tool. Perhaps...I will do some internal digging and try to get to the WHY I cannot believe him. We are approaching D-day anniversary and it has me totally freaked out. Too much pain, too many memories...I suppose it's time to make new ones.

For the love of .... Stella! What is your problem these days? ALL of your posts are just rude.

Fiori, I just wanted to wish you luck. You are such a level headed, smart woman. You know your limitations, you are human, you are who you are. You can only do so much. You can only forget so much. If you are always waiting for the other shoe to drop (which in your situation, was that awful comment your H said), its hard to get to the place of peace.

Thanks G,
I was a bit taken back by Stella, but I've not seen a happy posting by her in quite a while so I figured I'd leave her to her own thoughts.

As for me....I'm trying today. I spoke to H very late in the day for us. It was not til after 12:30 and that is rare. Of course I assumed it was because he was mad at me but in fact it was due to three long and tedious conference calls. We have connected and I decided that although he hurt me deeply, I would NOT make today a negative experience for either of us.

Sometimes it really annoys the Cr*P out of me that I make these concessions, but I'm willing to do what I have to do. I also called a local counceling center to see why they have a sign out front that says "groups forming...call now". I called and they have a women's group forming to help women turn negatives into positives. No date or time yet but I asked to be put on the list. I wonder what the man's group is..."How not to be a yang?" Just kidding!

So, today I'll just deal with my kitchen installers who totally hate me. They ordered the wrong oven hood and want ME to eat the cost. Yuck...I really dislike stuff like this. And, the tree guys removed a tree and crashed a 20' branch into the side of my house. That took a chunk off the roof. Tropical Storm Hannah took care of their patch job and my basement smells like wet dirt! Nobody got hurt! Nobody got hurt! ....repeat again.

I dont see how it is cold what I said.

There is no way I could sympathise with her on this. She started the fight. She kept on with it due to insecurities she feels about her husband which are probably justified.

But fighting like this rarely helps ANYTHING.

I want her to find out once and for all if he is cheating and if he will cheat again. To trust him again will take a lot from both of them. Fighting wont help this it will just get in the way.

I have given her four options, but she may have other ideas on what to do.

If a man gave the four options like I did, you would not think it was cold and cruel would you?

Fiori I am sure has many who will empathize with her and offer sympathy. I just wanted to give her MY OPIONION, rational as it is, and let her have another viewpoint so she does not spin and spin and fight more and more with him.

Fiori, you are right, I dont seem happy lately. I have to look into that. It is true that something is wrong. And it is in myself! Sorry,

I choose #3.

This will be a difficult task for me as I'm really a bit feisty. But, in the interest of attempting to re-build some type of trust I will try. I KNOW I will not always succeed. For those days I'll try to bite my tongue.

I do not believe he's involved back in the EA again. However, I do believe that if she presented herself after an argument he would be totally vulnerable. I am no fool. So, I pray for new employment for him. And, I pray that she gets swallowed up by a sink hole. But, I will press forward, I hope.

I was so tempted to answer your question this way:

"Can the BS get Closure with a visit to the OW?"

Answer:

"Sure they can if the BS brings a big enough BAT!"

LMAO, Stella.

Hey, if I did not think my kids would never ever wear matching clothing again I'd be in prison for exactly that! But, my H has an amazing knack for putting them in the most ridiculous outfits. Now, having said that, they are 16 and 13....but I am still fearful!!!

But, I do have an uncle Rudy--I suppose he may know someone who knows someone...Or, we have a friend who's dad is in Produce. Any Italian knows what that means!

Thanks for the injected humor.

There will be no closure via a meeting with an OP.

They are worthless people with nothing to offer anyone.

I wouldn't advise against contact with an OP for other reasons, but I wouldn't do so expecting closure.

That is, unless your meeting involves a shovel and lyme.

Fiori, look over my post on EN boards regarding my own closure. It was not an affair but there may be a couple similarities.

Which one, in particular, would give me insight as to what your struggles were?

It is titled,

"I finally got closure after 10 years"!

Oh PLEASE!!!! I can't do this for ten years...

Closure regarding the OW has been the HARDEST for me, too..and it's been 5 years or so...

It does get BETTER over time...

I almost was tempted to hit her car on the road...

Happened to come up behind her at a red light..

Then breezed past her..in my NEW CAR..that my H bought me..while she was driving her old cruddy car..

THEN, she came up behind ME..I looked up in my rearview mirror she had DISAPPEARED...

It was SURREAL...

That's the LAST I've seen of her...

But, I STILL WANT TO GET BACK AT HER...

I'm leaving it in GOD'S HANDS...

She will SUFFER if she does not repent...is my belief...

I needed closure for a former girlfriend my husband accidently banged WAY before he met me! (23 years before he met me)

Granted, she damaged him in a lot of emotional and other ways....that I am still helping him with (he does not know I am helping him)

It took 10 years for my closure..... Just think if he had an affair on me now! Or banged another woman now! I would be flattened.

I know you guys are doing the right things and your closure wont take as long as mine. But I admire you, I would freak if my husband had an affair now.

Gosh you sound just like me. I've said some of the same exact things. I still struggle with these feelings...especially the part where you say I really only want to cause her pain. It drives me nuts to think that she simply walks this earth with no consequences for her actions. I feel that same exact way too.

I did confront the OW (sort of). I called her and attempted to confront her (twice), but she knew it was me and didn't answer her phone. Instead I texted her twice - once when I wasn't fully aware of the extent of her relationship with my FWH, and the second time calling her every filthy name in the book and telling her what a piece of garbage she was. I think I even told her I saw the naked picture of herself she sent him, but I'm not sure....I was a little emotional at the time, lol. She forwarded the text to my FWH the next day in an attempt to re-establish contact with him when he told her things with them were over. He simply replied "we can't talk anymore - period." It feels good that I did that, but part of me would still love to confront her face to face.

I feel this way also..hadn't read this..

It must be NORMAL and EXPECTED for us...

I don't consider it an OBSESSION...

I consider it part of the EMOTIONAL WOUNDING that we have SUFFERED..

A HORRIBLE, HORRIBLE TRAUMA...

ETA: I USED to FEEL this way DAILY.. I would think of HER..DAILY..but NOW..only VERY, VERY SELDOM...TIME does HEAL the WOUND as others here had told me...

I came to understand about my husband..that it's really not about the OTHER WOMAN..not specifically HER per se but THE FEELING that she gave him..he was ADDICTED to THE FEELING of the AFFAIR...

To this day, though, I know that SHE can PRODUCE this FEELING for HIM again if he saw HER.

Thus, the LIFETIME ADDICTION to HER..but not really HER..you know what I mean...

fiori,

I don't know what you know of my story.

It's long, and I won't bore you with it here. Suffice it to say that I have been through trauma and pain.

I want to talk of the concept of what it might mean to inflict pain to find some sort of closure.

It won't close.


I have been there, and believe me, it won't close.

You can beat things, and that pain will remain in you.
You can scream, and that pain will remain in you.
You can say what is in your heart, yell at the top of your lungs, you can plan out the script of the exactly correct words that would be the most perfect thing to say to the person who inflicted the pain on you

and say them

and that pain will remain in you.


I learned through my trauma that only I held the key to closure. I control closure.

It comes from within me, from the most unlikely source. I held this key for the longest time, and actually

withheld it

from myself.

I did not even realize that I was withholding it. I did not know that I even had it in my possession at all.

Yet, it was there the whole time.


That key?

Forgiveness.


Once I forgave the perpetrators of the acts against me, I was free from those acts, from the movies in my head, from the daily and virtual moment to moment existence that was

those events that plagued my life

right up until I discovered how to let them go through forgiveness.


This sounds completely counter-intuitive. It is. Yet, in understanding and recognizing exactly how broken these people were, I was able to see my own strength, my own power, my own

self

and lift my self

from the chains that those people and their acts bound me with.


And I was free of them. I no longer saw them as important in my life. Because they were NOT. I was able to see that.

The focus somehow shifted to create a new recognition of this - and the sense of freedom in my world was astounding.

The sense of power, glorious.
The sense of relief, indescribable.

The sense of pain, I can tell you that I know that I had pain, and that I do have pain, but I am able to control how I respond to it. Because my approach is

mine to control

NOT THEIRS.


And that makes (and made) a huge difference.


I have peace with the affair, and with the events of my past. The affair is much more fresh, so from time to time, I still find difficulty with it. The events of the past

they are gone to me. Truly, gone.


The affair will also be gone, because my approach is the same, and I see it fading every day.


I will be leaving MB. I hope that you find peace, too. I know that if you find forgiveness, you WILL find peace.

I know this to be true. I promise you this is truth.

SB

UGH, lifetime addiction. This is what I don't know if I can live with.

Not sure why I'm even worried about it though.

Ugh the lifetime addiction thing is what bothers me the most. My OW was my H's high school girlfriend and they got back in touch at their 20 year reunion. The PA did not start for 3 years after that. But here I am already wondering if my H is going to want to go his 30 year reunion even though it is 5 years away.

It's no different than alcoholics or those addicted to drugs.

This is why the former wayward has to commit to EXTRAORDINARY PRECAUTIONS.

Your husband needs to commit to never seeing, talking or communicating with her in any fashion for the rest of his life.

My HUSBAND is kinda OBSESSED with this STILL..he's loosened up a BIT..but he takes certain routes, doesn't answer unknown calls, etc...he now HATES what the AFFAIR did to HIM..to US...

The only thing I regret (for lack of a better word) about having to keep NC between OW and my H is that he can't tell her what a tramp she is. LOL. I know my H is guilty of the same sin and has no room to talk, but I still entertain the idea. In my case the OW, was sooooooo sure my H "loved" her, would dump me, stayed with me out of obligation, blah, blah.

They weren't "friends." You don't go around helping your "friends" destroy themselves and their family. If OW is still in a fog that my H is still somehow missing her or whatever, I'd love for him to smack her a few dozen times with his own 2x4. Even if she's not in a fog, I still like the idea of him telling her what a joke their relationship was. Am I the only one with thoughts of having their FWS deliver some crushing blows to the OP?

This is NOT UNIQUE. Same was true in my situation...

After he finishes bashing her, he will soon be HOOKED again...wanting to tell her how sorry he is..

I'm still waiting for the day my H even feels anger for OW> He keeps telling me that my anger is misdirected. Ow never cared about me and never will. She has to make peace with her actions and it should NOT have anything to do with us. Hmmm....sounds easier said than done. I tell him that if I directed all the anger I had for her towards him, as he suggests, we may be burrying him some time soon! It's easier for me to dislike her than it would be for me to dislike him. I HATE his actions, but I cannot hate him.

I realize now that I need to find a path to forgiveness. I'm not even close yet. We are approaching one year to D-day, the day he uttered "i think i'm supposed to be with her". I feel great anxiety about this approaching day. Maybe when it's over I'll feel a sense of relief. And, then there's always the need for a new job to come up for him. He believes it's not necessary but is absolutely needed. He recognizes the importance of NOT working anywhere near her but he feels very confident that this will NEVER happen to him again. I gently remind him that although many alcoholics don't choose to drink any more...they don't tempt themselves by working at a bar!

My kitchen guys just called to say they're not coming today. Poop! I need to kitchen renovation to END!~

I never said it was unique situation. Was only pointing out what the OW's mind set was. If OW didn't care because she was onto the next guy or just in it for sex, she probably wouldn't care what my H would say to her and therefore there would be no point.


Nope.

Black Raven,
Does your husband exhibit anger for OW? This is probably one of my biggest struggles. H shows no anger for her. When I point out to him the horrific things she did to us as a family he seems aware, but not angry. I WISH deeply that he would renounce her and tell me all the nice things he said about her were wrong. He just seems to want to leave her in the past and focus on us. I struggle with this. But, hey...I didn't compare him to another man!

H did exhibit anger for OW at one time but not now. H was/is more angry with himself than her because HE brought this pain into our home. H did initially feel bad for using her. There's no denying he did. He did hate OW for using him as well. H realizes how incredibly stupid and thoughtless their affair was. Now that his head has been dislodged from his [censored], he can see her for the kind of person she is; the fantasy is dead. She didn't care about him, she didn't care about his kids, she didn't care about her own kids. H feels deep remorse for hurting me and our family as well as the OWH and his kids. Her...not so much. My H told her the affair was over; he didn't love her; he regreted every single moment of it; and that he wasn't going to be party to continuing to hurt people, etc.

OW didn't want to give up and did things which ticked him off: 1 - OW tells my H her plan of how they can still be together. He was disgusted. 2 - OW blames him for the entire affair. If H hadn't lied to her she never would have started the A. She's innocent. :RollieEyes: 3 - OW tries to hurt me with A details.

H was already disgusted by his actions and her actions. The way that OW acted after D-day just amplified what a pig she was. He doesn't speak of her unless I bring up the A. Right now H wants to repair our relationship and is focusing on that.

I wonder how I would feel if this was a different kind of A. My H had an EA. This, to me, was an affair of the heart. To me, I struggle getting past this. But, I'm not sure I could get past the other. When I first realized what was going on at work I was like a crazy sexual beast. Almost as if I was trying to 'show' him why he should be with me. I feel soooo stupid being that sad little person with her hand in the air screaming "PICK ME". I resent him sometimes for having put me in that position.

OW offered him major ego boost. And, she used her position at work (his subordinate) to get more time with him. A few times she even suggested they go for dinner, as she had nothing to do that night. Fortunately he never went. It's funny, I've seen others post this too...he NEVER took time away from our family. I mean actual time. He was home the same time and here all weekend. This was strictly a work issue. Oh, unless you count the late night calls after we were all asleep. Ok, I'm getting off topic...

My new gig is to try to turn negatives into positives. I'll see what I can do. No dwelling...no being sad just to be sad.

Your d-day was so recent. What do you do to keep yourself focused and not angry?

I'm still angry but I don't let it overwhelm me. I focus on my children, work, and of course my M. Like you, my kitchen is in shambles due to a remodel so I'm busy with that and other things we are doing around the house. The anger is there but I'm not going to jeopardize our recovery by dwelling on the A 24/7. I have a second chance with my H & M so I try the best I can to improve today instead of living in a past that I can't change. The alternative gets me nowhere. Still have my ups and downs but I need to heal for myself as well as my children because they need a healthy mom.

Last night H and I had a long talk. It had the potential to go south very quickly. My emotions are like a boiling pot. We started talking about the "why" to his EA. This, of course, usually comes down to some things that he was missing in our marriage. Ok, I get that, but it's hard for me because it feels like a comparison.

What was missing for you two? H and I just simply stopped 'talking'. We spoke to each other, but were so wrapped up in our own lives -- work & kids. OW was convenient and easy. Now, we need to find ways to incorporate each other each and every day. This is most difficult for H as he is a very private person. He still struggles with the password for his computer issue. He believes it a form of total control. I've tried to explain to him that my world is an open book. I have many, many passwords for various accounts and they are all written down in a book in my desk. He still chooses to NOT give me his computer passcode as he says it's against company policy as he works in the stock/finance world. So, he's given me access to his blackberry where all his email & phone records can be tracked. I really don't care about the work computer, but it does bother me a bit that he sees this aspect of recovery as control.

H was raised under a veil of suspicion. My MIL always thought everyone was out to get her and so do his sisters. I'm much, much more gullable -- I suppose that's how he got away with EA. Anyway, I was simply wondering where you guys missed a beat, if you've figured it out yet.

One more thing about last night's talk...

Towards the end it got a bit heated. He was saying things about me that I found hurtful. I asked his opinion as to exactly HOW I've apparently 'stiffled" him. Well, when he gave me an example it didn't seem fair. But, I asked!!! He could sense that I was getting really angry. He came over to me, grabbed me by the body and pulled me into a hug. He said 'let's stop it now...this is no longer productive and I can see you're getting angry' I would have never had the power to shut my anger off and it surely would have escalated into a full blown battle. I am appreciative for his intelligence and thought.

This is true for many companies. In fact, if I give my FWW my company password and someone finds out, I'll lose my job.

Thank you...I appreciate that tremendously.

Fiori:

As I told you before, I was also focused on the OW much too long.

What I think can really help you though, is to begin to focus on YOURSELF..just like in PLAN A..focus on being the BEST WIFE that YOU can be...

Your OW was not all that SPECIAL..

Your H's affair was not all that SPECIAL...

My H left me for the OW..abandoned a marriage of over 25 years for HER..not just because of the SEX..he was "in love" with her..thought she was his "true love"..like you say..an affair of the heart...so your situation is not unique..in fact, in MANY WAYS, you are BLESSED..it was not SEXUAL PLUS ROMANTIC..HE DIDN'T LEAVE YOU..I know it hurts the same..but COUNT YOUR BLESSINGS..

FOCUS ON MEETING HIS EMOTIONAL NEEDS...

FOCUS ON YOURSELF..and NOT on what you need for HIM to do...

YOU CAN ONLY CONTROL YOURSELF...

FOCUSING on other than YOURSELF will cause you to be FRUSTRATED and then ANGRY...

Plus, it's WAY EARLY...

This takes time...

The very last step for my H was to REALLY see the OW for who she REALLY is/was...

Then, the ANGER comes towards HER...

But as I said before, he will come to realize that it was not about HER..but how she made him FEEL....

I agree with Black Raven about the process. It's all so scripted. The OW in our situation was like Raven's..didn't show remorse or acceptance of responsibility which was one of the final dealbreakers....

Mimi,
Today I need alot of help.

This morning I looked at my H's calendar for the year. He has put in all the dates for our kids and days off, soccer games etc...I wrote him a sweet card and was going to put it in his bag for a later date to simply 'find'. His calendar opened to March. I started reading... No school, data migration...just very basic stuff. So, there it is. On both March 22 and March 25 there are little inconspicuous check marks. I took it upon myself to look at my secret stash of info. There it is, in black and white. There are both the dates of OW's birthday and the anniversary of when she started working at the company. So, now what???? He's still lying to me? He's still carrying on with her??? I'm supposed to be happy. I supposed to act like I'm the best damn wife in the world. How do I do that now?

Ask him what the marks mean. His answer (what he says AND what he doesn't say) should tell you all you need to know.

Fiori,

Take it from someone who has BTDT, until he leaves the company and she is no longer across the street he will remain stuck. I worked with my FOM for 2 years after I ended the A and kept myself in withdrawal, but didn't realize it. It was the constant reminders that made it hard to get over. Just seeing his car in the parking lot, seeing his name on something, seeing his name on a work email message or anything else for that matter, knowing he was sitting in his office, having someone mention his name, etc, etc, all kept me stuck.

The company I worked for had 2 offices across town from each other and it didn't make a bit of difference if he was in the opposite office or not than I was the reminders were still there.

Neither my FOM nor I wanted to be in the A, kept everything professional, I only worked 6 days a month and it was this hard, I cannot imagine how hard it would have been if I worked every day.

IMO, he will not "get over her" until he removes himself from the situation.

LC

His answer is...
He tends to be very thoughtless when monumental dates occur on the calendar. He's aware that I'm very anxious about the date of d-day and it's approaching. So, he says he put the checks on her birthday so he was completely accountable on those days in case I was a basket case.

I know I'm supposed to believe him (or maybe not), but it seems thoughtless to have done so.

This morning I was invited to a ladies 9-12am cocktail party!! I am a wreck inside but I'm going.

Wow, he is a very good...and smooth liar. For sure. No one would do that. No wonder you dont trust him, I would'nt either.

He is really #$@&*(%@!!ing you.

I cant believe he thinks you would believe that crap.

maybe, maybe not. The problem is that there is still some possibility that he's telling the truth and some that he's lying. So, once again, the burdon is mine. You see, he gets to keep all of his ducks in a row and I have to be happy! I have to be the perfect wife & mother. I have to NOT argue or become unglued. I have to decide whether or not to believe him or not. I I I I I I I I I I.....Is this just the way it is? The WS puts his/her wheels in motion and then it's up to the BS to make decisions daily as to whether or not they are telling the truth?

This is soooooo unfair.

Stella,
Here's my question to you and to myself as well...

WHAT IF HE'S TELLING THE TRUTH AND I'M WRONG???

Probable, not likely -- Possible, yup.

So, how much damage can I do if I "jump off the cliff" as he often tells me I do.

Fiori,
He may be telling the truth. Did he know that you knew those dates? Does he typically try to be extra careful about his accountability on dates that he knows you may worry about? If so then I would think he may be telling the truth.

Just so you know I know how you feel. It just about killed me when I looked at my H's calander early in recovery and found that he had marked the monthly anniversary's of his A with OW. He also wrote on Valentine's Day "OW Beach-Sunset". I love the sunsets at the beach and now when I see one it just about kills me and makes me really mad. So I do understand your pain and anger. I wish I had some helpful advice, but I did want to let you know I feel for you.

"His answer is...
He tends to be very thoughtless when monumental dates occur on the calendar. He's aware that I'm very anxious about the date of d-day and it's approaching. So, he says he put the checks on her birthday so he was completely accountable on those days in case I was a basket case."

What did he act like when he said that?
Did he act as if he was really understanding and concerned about you?
Or did he act as if you were being 'crazy', 'jealous', 'controlling','silly'...?
Did he seem apologetic or annoyed?
(BTW even if he responded with concer for you that doesn't necessarily mean he's innocent... could just be very cunning...)

Has he ever mentioned to you that he was going to try to keep better track of D-day triggers in order to help you with them?
Is this something you've ever specifically asked him to do?

Did he think that you even KNEW when her birthday was, so that it would even BE a trigger for you?

And did he also put check marks on all other dates that would be possible triggers?

It sounds suspicious to me.
I personally wouldn't buy it.

If he really were so concerned about triggers upsetting you then it would have occurred to him that the possibility of you finding out he'd checked those dates on his calendar, MINUS him showing and telling you he was doing that and why, would itself be very upsetting to you.

I think he's trying to turn an inappropriate thing he's done, somethign that you certainly have a right to be upset about, into something that supposedly makes him look as if he's not only innocent but supposedly also did it to protect you.

IMHO the dude's really good at spin!

I would just flat out ask him why he didn't TELL YOU he was going to try to keep track of D-days in order to help you with those triggers, and mark it on the calendar in the house instead of his calendar that was stashed away?

Ugh, Fiori. This is how I feel. THEY mess up and WE have to [censored] kiss to make it all perfect so THEY can stay on the straight and narrow? I find this unfair, as well. WE BOTH had the same vows, mine wasnt to coddle and pet every minute of the day to be sure he is fulfilled, whether I am or not.

I've seen the OW a few times from a distance and that has helped me to not worry that she is better than me.

I doubt the OW will ever ackowledge she did anythign wrong or apologize to me and my daughters so meeting her would not be very satisfying anyway.

I am tempted at times to tell her off, in person or in a letter, but that would probably just help her pretend she's some sort of innocent victim and I'm mean or scary or whatever LOL.

I probably will run into her someday accidently and don't know how that will go... I used to worry about that a lot but don't think about it much anymore.

Of course it's sometimes fun to fantasize about such a meeting LOL.

Wow. We had the exact same thing happen to us. H was always home when he was supposed to be, this was at work. She is his subordinate and was making ways to weasle time with him, as well. SHe set him up by stroking his ego everyday about what a fAntastic principal he was, then they became personal accodolates. Within 2 weeks he was telling me I was a raging, hormonal [censored] (pregnant on bed rest) and emailing her telling her she was the PERFECT woman who could never imagine being in a bad mood. Gah!

Yes, he thought I knew the dates. In all honesty, I did not. I would have never thought about it unless I had seen the check marks. But, over a year ago I found a business card in his wallet. It had her ss#, birthdate and anniversary of starting at the company on it. Needless to say I have this card. So, when I saw the check marks I was immediately intrigued. I took out my secret stash and there it was!

Oh, and trust me, he's soooo NOT cunning at all. This is a man who thinks very little before he speaks and much prefrs a reactive way of life to a pro-active one. I pointed out to him that this would be much easier for me to process if I had some indication prior to finding it out on my own that this was the case.

As for Meremortals questions:

He's aware that certain dates are triggers to me. This past week was his birthday and I was very concerned that she would attempt contact. Because of this he called to 'warn' me that he had a lunch meeting and where he'd be. He also knows I'm a bit freaked out by the upcoming date of OCtober 17. This is the day he truely broke my heart. As for him thinking ahead and putting checks so that I'd be protected? That seems very unrealistic to me. This is a man who rarely worries about consequences for his actions. Again, he likes to clean up messes rather than prevent them. This is not new...he's been like this for the entire 20 years I've known him.

Initially he acted annoyed. Really, he just wanted to go to work and begin his day. Stella and others have told me how important it is for me to be 'happy' so I was trying to preserve this by speaking to him as positively as this subject would merit. During our conversation he explained to me that I was making more out of the situation than it warranted. Again, he believes that I am looking for rope to hang him with and that no matter what he does/says I can find a way to incriminate him if it fits into my scenario I've already cooked up in my mind.

This is an aspect of recovery that is maddening to me. He's just going along with his day and I'm made to feel like a nutjob. It's not intentional on his part, but you should see the look in his eye. It's as if we're both looking at strangers. I have no idea how this sweet, gentle and loving man could have morphed into such a turd.

As for knowing the dates...he thought I had her stats memorized. So, I know her address, phone number, height, weight, religious offiliations....what's the problem???? Does this seem obsessive to you???

This is funny...you'd have to know him to realize how NOT a spinner he is.

Don't put anything past someone who is or was wayward. I am a terrible liar, but in the wayward mindframe I was able to lie like the best of them and not feel bad at the time. When I think back to things I did and said I sometimes cannot believe the stuff that came out of my mouth to cover my butt.

LC

Were those for March of 2008 or March of 2009? If it was the latter, I'd be p*ssed too. For awhile, after my FWH came home, he had a passcode on his cellphone. I knew what it was and he knew I knew but what I didn't know was what it meant. It was OW#1's BD. Talk about p*ssed.

I'm not buying your H's explanation. That's just bogus. If it had been me, I would have taken the calendar and made checkmarks for ALL the days of March... and waited to see if he asked about it. Not asking would be a big tell. Asking would have made me feel better.

In your case, sorry, I just don't buy it.

I'm so sorry but I agree with PM --> I don't buy it either.

Is your H showing you regularly that he is taking every step necessary to find a new job?

I'm pretty sure you don't like it when I post to you...but quite honestly, I am very worried about you and the amount of triggers/exposure to OW you have endured over the past year. Take care of yourself.

While I admit there were somethings I could have handled better in our M, my H was mostly the problem. He comes from a very dysfunctional family and is/was very needy for others people approval especially where work is concerned. Whenever I offered a suggestion about something (after HE asked me my opinion) he usually got mad that I was belittling him if he didn't like the answer. If I pointed something out to him that I saw was a problem....I was belittling him. Now if someone else(someone he liked or looked to for approval)gave him the same answer I did well they were a fricking genius, kudos to them, blah blah, gag. That lead to further resentment on my part that my opinion didn't mean crap, he felt belittled...repeat the cycle. It pissed me off because any time I offered advice it was only so that he could succeed and meet his professional goals, look good to his peers, etc.

I'm not the kind of person to apologize for something I didn't do just to broker peace. So he would be mad, I would be mad and that was that. OW had no standards for anything and stroked his ego 24/7 so he was easily enticed. My H now admits that for years he was just a ahole, plain and simple, and has taken me for granted in so many ways. He gets no argument from me. LOL

I don't buy it either Fiori.

Most WS would want to forget the affair and move on. If he told you to tell talk to him when you feel anxious, I could understand that but why would he need to put that in his calendar?

I don't buy your H's explanation either.

He should be making a MAJOR POINT to FORGET the OW's BIRTHDAY or any special DATE or TIME in HER LIFE...not remembering or notating FOR ANY REASON..

Like the others, I wouldn't be able to tolerate him working in the same company...

I don't even like living in the SAME CITY...

WEll, last night after dinner I brought it up in a very non confrontational way. I simply stated that he had had all day to think over his previous answer and then see if he wanted to make any changes. He's sticking by it. Really, my head is clear. I see that alot of what he's saying to me seems soooooo unrealistice and I believe if he stepped outside of himself he'd not believe himself either. That's really what I need for him to be able to do. He needs to see his own words coming out of the mouth of the husband of someone he loves, like one of his sisters. There's no way he'd believe them!

So, I sit here, plastering on my happy face. I'm torn up inside. I know the MB principles say to snoop, snoop, snoop...but this is not my normal character. My heart races and my intenstines become an active volcano just when I see his phone and his briefcase. I have to find an IC that I can go to for ME!!! I have no idea at this point where my future will be. Before the wench came into my life I always knew he and I would be together forever.

I'm so willing to NOT be the part of my personality that he apparently hates. I really am not so sure he hates it, it's just that he sees wonder woman and different. Pull away all the flirting and the horomones and she's a basic woman who's going to nag, nag, nag....just like he thinks I do.

I will remain vigilant. But, I always have to understand the possibility that my suspicions are feuling my suspicions. There must be a line where I can not cross. Really, this entire event is simply exhausting.

Bitter,
I'm not sure why you think I don't like when you post to me. Have I said that to you? Maybe you have me confused with someone else.

Trust me..if you have something to say -- even if I don't necessarily agree with it, it's something I need to read.

As for looking for a job, yes he's actively doing it. NOt as active as I think she could/should be, but I cannot do this for him. He needs to finally see why he must get out of dodge. REally, i believe he thinks it's very OK for him to work there as long as he remains in NC with the wench. But, I cannot. At some point he's going to need to start putting me first. I am waiting for the day he makes the shift. He's really a very stubbon soul.

Do you BUY and UNDERSTAND the MBers' viewpoint that THE AFFAIR is an ADDICTION?

He's not (fully) invested in looking for another job...

He's spewing crap about trying to help you via keeping important dates noted, but isn't forthcoming with the information (lying by omission)...

He still workes across the street from OW...

He gets angry/violent towards you when you ask him questions about the LTA...


My bet is since it's 6mos out, he's either still deep in the fog (and not coming out very soon due to close proximity), or he's still in contact.



(((Fiori)))

What difference does it make if I buy it? Isn't it more effective if HE buys it?

And, to answer your question....YES! I totally agree. The only part of MB that confuses me is the snooping part. I understand that it's necessary, it just feels wrong.

IMO, if you "bought" it, if you fully accepted that the A is an addiction and that it affects your H's thought process (fog), your mindset regarding contact would be different...you would know that you must snoop in order to protect yourself and your family, the same way that you would if your H was addicted to crack.

If you fully buy into the addiction theory, your mindset would be: While there is any contact your H is either still involved in the EA...or he is still being triggered daily by knowing she is close by which makes him basically powerless to the fog he is still under(as evidenced IMO by the insensitive things he has said and done).

My fear for you, Fiori, is that unless you make a boundary for yourself and make it clear (without lovebusting) that NC must happen...that your H will continue dragging his heels. And further I think if you fully believed that he is addicted to the way OW makes him feel, you would realize that he likely won't make a huge effort to leave his job.

My fear for you is, even if he is not still involved in the A, if he continues at his job much longer that you two will slowly love-bust and whittle your love and respect for each other away and in the meantime, your emotional well-being continues to take a beating.

I will keep my fingers crossed that things change soon and you are able to finally experience the fruits of Recovery that you deserve.

Take care.

Quick question....
If or when I call OW names like dumpy, schemer, slut...and a host of others, is this considered an LB? Or, is this particular thought process exempt from this?

I can do alot of things to help heal my marriage, but I cannot stop this. To this, I am addicted. Stupid, stupid man.

I agree completely with you on this! Is there anything that is open and honest about snooping?

No, it's not honest or open. And, it goes against everything in my person to do it. However, I would not have to if I was not compromised by my husband. Today I was cleaning out his sock drawer. My heart was racing as I got to the bottom of the drawer. I was so AFRAID that I would find some little momento or note that he 'forgot' about. I just wish he'd try harder to 'remember' and remove this things from my house and my life.

Fiori,
A while back I came across my H's old cell phone and decided to read his old text messages. All it did was make me feel horrible. They were old messages from when we were separated. At that point I told my H that if he had anything else like that that I might find to get rid of it. Fortunately that and his old calander were all I ever found.

Have you asked your H to get rid of anything that has anything to with OW?

Yes, several times. But, keep in mind, I don't really think there is anything here. He's not that dumb. Well, maybe he is...
In the very beginning I found a card she gave him that he stashed in our 'family important documents' case. Whew...I was irrate. That's gone. Then, there was the sweet collection of love notes that she gave to him the day after d-day. She was 'saving' them for a special occassion so decided to give them to him then.

Then, a few months ago there was the sweet ornament she gave him for Christmas. Hmmmm....I still wonder what came along with that! That was stashed in his trunk. He swears he had NO IDEA it was there and it meant nothing to him so he simply forgot about it. My H has very selective memory. Most recently it was teh check marks on his daytimer. This just occurred this weekend. Sunday was a crappy day for us after he midlead me on where he'd be running. Apparently I jumped the gun on that one and need to cut him slack because he called when he got there and let me know he changed venues. So, ok. But, that night he transferred the info from my calendar to his. That's the shocking part --- it was just a couple of days ago!!! Too fresh for me. He swears it was for my benefit. Last night I asked that if he had any future beneficial plans to put them on the family calendar and let me know before I find out by accident.

So, now I either believe him or wait for the next offense. Please, please pray he gets a new job soon. I fear I will lose my mind if he continues to work there. You'd think the piece of crap OW would scurry back under her rock and get a new job herself. See, she's still a selfish nothing. Oooh, there's that anger again. I really need for her to disappear.

I think tonight I'll have H read this thread so he gets some insight as to what I think and how others respond. I think he'll do it, but not sure.

One more time I ask this question...

Is calling OW names and wishing her to evaporate an LB?

This is what makes me think you don't understand or buy the ADDICTION CONCEPT, Fiori.

You would know that this is UNHELPFUL.

What do you think that this would ACCOMPLISH to help your marriage?

I am not sure if it a LB, but I would think yes.

Look at it this way, do you have a family member that is trash and you know it and you can say anything you want about them, but as soon as someone else does you jump to defend the person that you know is trash?

So your WH may think all the same things you do about OW, but then you say them and he feels defensive (even if he doesn't tell you). So basically you calling OW names may leave your H feeling protective of OW and viewing you as spiteful. I don't think that is what you want. So vent and call OW anything you want to your IC or best friend, but don't do it in front of your WH.

This is EXACTLY what happens.

Another indication of not understanding the AFFAIR ADDICTION.

IF he continues to be wayward, having him to read this will do NOTHING.

My WH said that the ENTIRE book, SURVIVING AN AFFAIR, did not "apply" to him. :RollieEyes:

This is about YOU, Fiori.

YOU taking charge of YOURSELF..not having your husband to do anything.

YOU CAN ONLY HAVE CONTROL OVER YOURSELF.

Understand?

YOUR JOB..is PLAN A.

Ok! I see what you mean. I'm not trying to educate him by having him read this...I just thought he would gain some perspective.

As of two days ago I have not called her any names. I will refrain from this day forward no matter how hard it will be.

Ok, here it goes...
H has EA. H continually lies about the end of EA. H finally retreats but I still have my doubts. But, in the interest of preserving my marriage and the love I have for him, H gets a free pass to simply be himself and I June Cleaver him up one side and down the other with a smile masking my disappointment and anger? This is how it works?

I know I sound very sarcastic, but maybe I feel that way. This is angering. He did this to me!!! I realize the intent is that if I provide him with a loving all encompassing environment than the OW will not be necessary. REALLY, I DO GET THAT!! I just don't like it.

But, what happens if I find out something and it makes me sad or mad? I'm not allowed to bring it up? I'm not allowed to discuss it? Or can I but sweetly? Very confusing and it makes me feel like a fool.

Have you read Surviving an Affair?

I'm sorry. I don't know your whole story. Has he written a NC LETTER? This is ESSENTIAL.

NO. This is NOT the way that it works..is why I asked you if you've read SURVIVING AN AFFAIR.

PLAN A involves NEGOTIATING the END OF THE AFFAIR as well as meeting his EMOTIONAL NEEDS. You have to do BOTH. Negotiation involves requesting the NC LETTER and PROOF to you that he has ended it by taking EXTRAORDINARY PRECAUTIONS to never see or communicate with her EVER again in his life. If he still works ANYWHERE near her he has not meet a CRUCIAL CONDITION of ending his affair. ANY CONTACT WHATSOEVER..starts the process all over again..of WITHDRAWAL..which lasts 3 to 6 months..which is necessary BEFORE REAL RECOVERY can begin...

THE BIGGEST MISTAKE that I made and UTTERLY REGRET to this day is ENABLING my HUSBAND'S AFFAIR. As long as I ENABLED it, he got CLOSER and CLOSER to her, feeling more and more COMFORTABLE with what he was doing.

The ENABLEMENT came from my fear of facing the TRUTH of it all...the truth that he had gone and given his heart away to another woman.

But once I FACED THE TRUTH, I began to FIGHT for HIM.

IMO, you can't really FIGHT this until you FACE THE TRUTH and do what YOU can do to FIGHT THE AFFAIR.

If I understand correctly, the "open and honest" applies to a marriage where the WS is no longer wayward... in thinking or otherwise. Waywards lie. The only way to stop an active affair (and it IS still active if there is ANY contact) is with exposure. How will you know if there is contact if you don't snoop? Trust your WS to tell you the truth?

A truly repentent wayward, will bend over backwards to make his/her life an open book. They become a (F)WS and the need for "snooping" goes away, after a period of time. But as long as there is contact, all bets are off.

Not snooping is equivalent to burying your head in the sand and "hoping" that it all turns out well. :RollieEyes:

MIMI,
The EA is over. He has not had any contact either visual, conversationally or otherwise since February of 2008. I have the problems now because of the fact that they still work for the same company, however in opposite buildings. She is slated to be moved into his building possibly in October (next month). For this, I'm freaked out! He has repeatedly assured me that it will not involve him in any way. I am wise to understand the addiction part but he bristles at the thought. So, I'm ok with providing a safe and happy environment for him to retreat to. But, I cannot be a doormat. I have no way of knowing for sure that he really does not see or interact with her at work. All I can do is watch and wait.

When he was with her he was nasty to me. He has not been that way consistently, but there have been times. But, I'll be honest and tell you that I have not done a great job at being 'happy'. I'm sad, I'm hurt, I'm miserable. I've left my name/number at a local mental health clinic to join a women's group. They will be teaching skills for turning negatives into positives.

Right now I'm paralyzed by my own fears. Fear of being made a fool of, fear of him lying to me, fear of failure...the list goes on! All I have right now is me. I have to be happy and if he's with the dumpy one I cannot be. So, as you have previously coached Mogi, I'll work on me.

Ok, I apologize if I'm seemingly dumb today but I feel like I've just gotten a big smack on the head and I finally have woken up. But, a few points are sketchy for me.

Today I am watching Oprah with Gary Neuman. He is bringing up alot of very good points. It's annoying to me that the woman seems to bare the responsibility for building up the man so he wants to be with her. So caveman.

But, here's the question. Am I allowed to speak with H about seeing the show? Or, do I have to simply cringe about some of the things that have rung true to me and keep my mouth shut while smiling? It's so hard to do.

And, one more thing. I spoke to someone today and asked this question. I am praying for God to help me with my situation to see some signs that I'm in it for keeps and it's the right thing. But, I keep finding these little inconsistencies. Am I projecting my doubt which may essentially push H away or is God sending me these little inconsistencies so that I wake up. How am I supposed to be able to tell the difference. This is, assuming you believe God does send us little signs to get us through certain situations.

I'm weird this way. Very often I look at the clock and it's my anniversary. I see this as a sign that I'm in the right place. Others dismiss stuff like that as ridiculous...I do not. So, how do I interpret this?

No, I have not read Surviving An Affair. I just finished reading HNHN and am also reading a book on forgiveness. Today I ordered Gary Neuman's book on Emotional Infidelity and was able to download his book from Oprah for free. So, I have tons of reading to do!!!

Here's another question --
DO I HAVE THE RIGHT TO INSIST THAT H GET A NEW JOB? I am a stay at home mom, so I'm not sure how this works. Can I insist/

I RECOMMEND for you to read SURVIVING AN AFFAIR because your husband had an affair. You specifically need to read that GUIDEBOOK for ADEQUATE RECOVERY, using the MBer's approach.

You are asking questions that would be fully explained by reading SURVIVING AN AFFAIR.

I used to read it DAILY.

So, how can you BE SURE there's NO CONTACT. If it was my husband, I know he would be tempted at least to email and I would have to BE SURE..well, as sure as I could be....

What about the NC LETTER?


FOR GOOD REASON!!


BULL!! IF you UNDERSTAND the ADDICTION PART...he CRAVES being near her..it's AN ADDICTION!!


I don't see how you can possibly be happy with your husband working at the same company....


BUT, I think the ANSWER for MOGI was gaining her SELF-RESPECT. She stopped ACCEPTING her husband's BULL CRAP. That will increase your ATTRACTIVENESS to HIM.

foiri,

Mimi is right.....you have to stop accepting the minimium from your WS. Even though his was an EA it is still an affair.....and she is also right about gaining SELF-RESPECT. It was the single greatest achievement I did in all of this.

My own self-respect was in the gutter prior to D-day and went even lower following Dday. NOW I know I am worth a whole lot more than what I got handed. I now know that I will survive with or with-out WS. BUT truth-be-known, I'd rather do it with him. That doesn't mean I will sacrifice myself or my boundaries to do it though......

And you MUST read SAA....it is critical to your M's survival. Especially if you are seeking answers on here.....I would have been lost without it.....well, actually I may not have ever found this place since it was because of the book I came to this website.....

not2fun

Here is the SELF-RESPECT issue. You have the RIGHT to do whatever YOU want to do that YOU believe is NECESSARY to save your marriage. If YOU want to WORK ON SAVING YOUR MARRIAGE, he will HAVE to get a NEW JOB!! SO TELL HIM THIS!! Telling him what YOU want is not INSISTING. He has a CHOICE to do it or not.

Ok, I will buy the book.

As for insisting he get a new job, I was just afraid this would be considered LB. I can do this, I know I can.

Hi Fiori

I have an answer to the orginal question of this thread : "Can the BS get 'closure' with a visit to OW ?".

After about 2 years of up-and-down recovery I found a deep need to face down OM.

He was a karate champion and this really grated me. I knew I was his better in every possible way but this. Insecure man that I am.

So I laid in wait outside the karate HQ. And I beat seven colours of sh*t out of him with a cable hose and every limb.

His old flesh yielded under my blows , but in truth I would have overwhelmed Randy Couture that night. I am lucky I didn't kill him.

When I was out of breath he lay at my feet bleeding and puffing.

He said " I deserved that. Now PLEASE can you just leave me alone ?".

Scumbag. Gave me reason to respect him. I never expected or wanted that.

So did I get closure ? No but I do not regret what I did. That he took his stripes, and never reported me to the police is to his great credit.

And it makes me happy to think that he lives just a little bit in fear of me now.

But closure ? Never.

Thanks, I dream of a good head bashing almost every day. Then, I stop in 8:00am Mass and pray for the feelings to leave my head.

Today I am plagued by a gut feeling. I wish I knew what to do. Tomorrow is my B-day and I'm scared about it. I know I'll be disappointed. Not by gifts, that's not really a big deal to me. But, by his lack of concern. He can be soooo thoughtless. I was up alot last night scared. I don't know why. I just feel scared. That feeling you have when you're right at the top of the roller coaster about to go down.

Today he told me he was asked to go fishing on the 14th of November by a co-worker and his 3 other buddies. H has never done this before. I really have no problem with it as I really like the guy who asked. But, again, it's an independent activity AND the weekend right before our 18th anniversary and I was under the impression we may go away to Lancaster for a day or two. Hmm....maybe the next weekend. I never gave him an actual date so it's not really his fault.

The gut is usually NOT wrong. But, it can be paranoid.

Bob, you are my hero.

I was too crippled to go toe to toe on equal terms with OM at the time, but now that I'm physically recovered, I could make him into a greasy spot with my pent up rage for him.

I am lucky that I didn't carry out what I was going to do as he wasn't worth my freedom and him always wondering is worth so much more to me.

I guess he knows one day it's coming, he just needs to man up and take it.

My prefered scourge of choice is 2 feet of fan belt.

Fiori

Just catching up with your thread.

Ive got nothing to offer, except sympathy. Im 2.5 years post d-day and lately, Ive become more obsessed with contacting the OW. I want to destroy her emotionally (although Bobs story is GREAT! Id love to do that as well, but Im way better at verbal sparring)

I guess this comes from a gut feeling that I never got the full truth from my H. He swears this isnt the case but frankly, Id be stupid to believe someone who lied to me in the past.

Mimi,
Here's the deal with the NC letter. When I found MB, presumed NC was already established by a month and a half. When OW's mother died and H did not go to the funeral (as she expected he would), she seemed to slither away. Shortly after that I found MB. I explained the NC letter and H agreed (grudgingly) to write one. This was a several day process of me changing and trying to make him understand it's importance. But, we struck a deal. Right or wrong, the deal was:

I keep the letter. If there is ANY contact from either H or OW the letter would go out that very day in certified mail.

To this day, I have the letter. I have no proof of any contact. By this I mean actual contact, not just working for the same company.

This morning I nicely told H that I could no longer put up with the work situation and that I'd like for him to put 110% more effort into finding a job. I also told him if he had to take a pay decrease i would get a job, if necessary. I do work for my mom's company but only bring in a relatively small paycheck. But, it pays for kid stuff and groceries.

WOW!!!
I wish I could do that! Seems strange to do so but I congratulate you on the a#$ whoopin you gave OM!

The letter MUST be sent! This is recommended by Dr. Harley in SURVIVING AN AFFAIR as THE WAY to end AN AFFAIR.

You actually have NO PROOF that there has been NO CONTACT.

Sorry, Fiori.

I say NONE of this to HURT you....

All of it to HELP save your marriage.

You need to see your husband, IMO, as a WAYWARD until he definitely proves otherwise and he would be more than willing to do the letter if there has been no contact AND if he wants to assist in REPAIRING what he has done to you.

We sent I know TWO NO CONTACT LETTERS.

For me, it was as much MY HUSBAND'S DEMONSTRATION that he was COMMITTED as much as anything else.

IT IS AN ADDICTION! HE WANTS TO CONTINUE USING AND HAVE THAT POTENTIAL TO USE!!

EXTRAORDINARY PRECAUTIONS, including the NC LETTER, are NECESSARY and ESSENTIAL!!

I know, having lived through more than one FALSE RECOVERY!!

Alcoholics do not have liquor around the house...

Yannow fiori its not the thing I'm proudest of throughout this whole mess. Understandable yes, scratched an itch, yes but it gave OM the chance to act nobly and that still grates.

And as a Christian it was hardly turning the other cheek was it ?

And it could have gone very wrong if he'd reported me to the police for example. Or if I'd gone too far and really damaged him.

I suppose it DID serve to make OM "human" in my estimation. He was subhuman before this episode. A wicked witch. In truth he is just a scumbag who took what my wife offered.

Don't FEAR to confront OW, Fiori. but don't feel compelled to either.

Mimi,
I had an old thread on here that is no longer active. On this I asked many, many people for advise regarding sending the NC letter. All the advise I got was to NOT send it since she had stopped the barrage of phone calls and slinky visits to his office. It was thought that if we sent the letter then, it would give her reason to contact him again, opening an unwanted can of worms.

Instead, we set down some scenario's for HOW H would handle the situation if there was attempted contact. We have scripted this many times and tweeked it too. We are approaching the one year anniv. of D-day. I do NOT and CANNOT find the strength to stir the pot now and have her begin her assault once again.

Trust me, if I had been instructed to do so 8 months ago I would have sent the letter. But, NOW, it seems odd. I have no problem sending it if there is contact.

When do you reach a point where you have to let it go? I feel like I am at the point where I have to say to H: Hey, from here on out it's your choice. All I can do is love you and be your friend. If you choose to squander that I have no power to stop you other than my love. Have at it, if that is what you truely want." I suppose this would be an incorrect approach, but it's what I currently feel. I'm so tired of being at the top of the roller coaster ready to drop. And, I can't afford any more clothing!

That is basically what I told my H...It is your choice, I don't control you but I am telling you that our M will not withstand you working with OW.

Your current thought process concerns me, Fiori, that your H is draining his LB account into the danger zone.

Have you even considered the possiblity of Plan B if he doesn't get another job w/n a set amount of time? If he shows you that he is pursuing it vigorously, I could see giving him more wiggle room, but you have really endured this an awful long time.

Hang in there.

I am really a BY THE BOOK kinda MBer's Koolaid Drinker!!

According to Dr. Harley in SURVIVING AN AFFAIR, the NC LETTER is ESSENTIAL!!

I'm not sure why you were instructed differently.

It would have prevented SOMEWHAT, I think, what you are going through now, regarding the marked calendar.

I'm thinking you don't have a good understanding of some of the MAJOR, BASIC MBer's PRINCIPLES!!

It's PLAN A, PLAN B then RECOVERY...not YOUR PLAN...

See what I mean?



As Bitter stated, YOUR PLAN may lead your LOVE BANK to dwindle or even ENABLE your HUSBAND in his current affair or even open up the opportunity to more...

Because my H had an AFFAIR, our MARRIAGE is DIFFERENT...I don't just "LOVE HIM". There are certain EXPECTATIONS that WE have AGREED UPON. He takes EXTRAORDINARY PRECAUTIONS to make sure that he never sees or talks to the other woman again in his LIFETIME as EXPLICITLY STATED in the NC LETTER. That is the EXPECTATION in order for us to continue to be married and to LOVE each other...

This is EXPLAINED in the AFFAIR chapter of HIS NEEDS, HER NEEDS. I encourage you to read that chapter.

Mimi,

I was just wondering...would it make more sense to send the NC once he leaves the job? I think the work dynamic is such that someone that reports to Fiori's H works w/OW and her name is on reports, emails etc...so I could see it being awkward for her H to send the letter while he still works there...

Bob,
I'm sorry if I seemed 'flip' about your altercation. By no means to I mean any type of disrespect. I,too, being Christian could never actually harm another person...even though I may think about it once in a while.

That would be part of EXPOSURE..another essential ingredient in PLAN A and eventual MARITAL RECOVERY...

Would the concern be PROTECTION of the OW and Fiori's H?

What they did was WRONG..

I'm missing the need for concern about AWKWARDNESS.

This is part of the COMPENSATION necessary for Fiori's HEALING...

BTW:

I wasn't suggesting for the letter to be sent thru interoffice mail or email (if that was the plan that was stated and I missed it).

The letter should be delivered directly to the OW.

Nope, it was going certified if it went.

My H and I were talking about you last night (all good, of course) and he suggested something. I know he is just barely earning his "F" so take it or leave it...anyway, it's a suggestion.

Here's what he thought. I was trying for so long to meet his ENs but fell short. He was trying to meet my ENs but fell short. The shift came when I finally realized that he needed incentive to want to meet my ENs...in the form of appreciation. I thought I was giving it to him, but for some reason he wasn't receiving it. So he would try to please me and then would feel like he didn't do it right. This would discourage him and make him feel less like he wanted to try. I was unhappy because I didn't see his effort and felt him getting more and more distant even while I thought I was encouraging him.

He had to TEACH me how to appreciate him. He needed to feel like he could "win" with some of his actions. I learned that with MY H, he needs immediate appreciation. When he hugs me, I say right then and there "I love this." When he calls me to tell me he's going to be late, I don't talk about how I am disappointed, he knows that already. I tell him "Thank you so much for calling me and letting me know." We jokingly refer to these praises as "M&Ms" because when I was teaching the boys specific behaviors, I would often use M&Ms as a quick, immediate reinforcement of positive behavior.

What is amazing is that H says that when I tell him that I love the hug he is giving me at the moment he hugs me, he finds that he wants to hug me more. He WANTS to make me happy. He just needs to be told when he succeeds.

This is what H suggested...just for ONE WEEK...try it. EVERY time your H does something with the intention of making you happy, tell him thank you immediately. Try, just for one week, to avoid ALL NEGATIVE comments. I don't mean that if he says he's going to lunch with OW that you should thank him for telling you, but really pay attention to the things that he IS doing to try to make you happy. Let him feel like he can "win." See if this changes HIS behavior.

Just an idea...

MS

Mimi,

I was trying to be tactful for Fiori's sake...

I guess what I'm saying is...
I'm wondering the value of a NC letter if they still work together and we aren't even 100% certain that they don't talk or see each other throughout the work day (LC's posts about still interacting with her AP at work is what got me thinking about this..)

I was wondering it made more sense to hold off on the NC letter, changing phone numbers email addresses, etc, once he left the workplace.

WHAT????? A WHOLE WEEK??

Ok, I'll see what I can do. Man, Mogi, you're a party pooper!

Think nothing of it ! I just realise that a whole lot of BS would like to do what I did, and I need to make sure they realise how stupid I was and how lucky I was that OM didn't take legal action against me !

All blessings !

Understanding it's not probable, is it POSSIBLE for a wayward to continue having visual sightings of OP and remain completely committed to recovery with BS? I'm not in denial and I totally agree with the fact that H MUST get a new job....I'm just wondering if this has ever been the case. If they were still working at same company but in different area's is this possible?

Again, I DO NOT want this to be the case.

This weekend was good. It was different because of my mood. I still find this perplexing, but it did seem to work. He responded to ME and I squelched any thoughts of asking questions or saying anything negative. So, two days down and a million to go!

.I always have questions but never any answers. This morning I 'peeked' in my H's bag and found a copy of an email from OW. It's OBVIOUS to me that she has not taken the NC rule seriously at all. He is in the process of sending out many, many emails with his resume to find another job. I pray every day that this happens before I have a nervous breakdown.

So, it's obvious to me that his supposed NC stance is not affecting her at all. She is bold, she is brazen and she obviously is selfish beyond belief. H has her email blocked on his computer and blackberry. This email was delivered via another co-worker. It was familiar and it was to the point.

H...
Call me when you want to proceed with this file.
OW

The email was directly from her to him. There were no cc's no other people on email, no others involved. Oh, except the carrier pigeon who had to deliver from once side of the street to the other. Sooooooo...I DO NOT need a lecture on whether or not he's still involved with her. I'm fighting for my marriage and I'm going to do EVERYTHING I have to to follow this through. This man and I love each other....he's just simply being a real 'Richard' right now. It's obvious to me that she felt completely comfortable sending the email...just by her tone. The other worker delivered as there is supposed full knowledge that she's blocked.

Here's the question....He says he's going to go talk to her today to strongly reiterate that NC means NC. I get that everyone here thinks that since they work for the same company it's still contact. Fine, let's get past that....just help me with this issue. Is it right that he goes to speak with her regarding boundries again???? He SAYS they have not spoken in any way, shape or form since last February. Let's leave out whether or not that is believable. JUST TELL ME IF HE SHOULD GO READ HER THE RIOT ACT AGAIN????

I may go into the city and beat her to a pulp....I'm really that close!

You are wasting your time and energy until they stop working together. It is that simple.

Sure he is sending out resumes and trying to find a new job, but until he is completely away from her you may as well sit back and watch.

Have you read this thread by ML.Read My Lips: NO CONTACT MEANS NO CONTACT

Be sure to read my 2 replies on page 3.

I feel like a broken record lately telling people how detrimental it is and a complete waste of time to be trying to rebuild a marriage when the AP's are still working together. I only wish my DH or my FOM's DW had known about MB and stopped the chaos before we all wasted 2 years.

LC

Oh and BTW, he still had the email because it makes him feel all warm and fuzzy. (he won't admit that, though)

If he really was serious about having her blocked, etc, etc he would have asked the person who delivered the message who it was from before it was given to him and the second he found out it was from her he would have told the other person he was not interested in it and to trash it.

Your H is playing games with you and you need to stop completely blaming the OW because he is also leading her on. She got her fix knowing he accepted the letter and now the cycle will start all over again.

LC

Then drop the bomb and nuke this situation now. I can't remember if you exposed to work or not, but you have to. Your H needs to quit his job now.


It's a waste of time and H will now have an excuse to see OW and you agreed to it. Your H WANTS the contact or he wouldn't have brought the email home. Why would he do that?

Thanks...but none of what you've said is news to me! Just help me to figure out whether or not he should have the strong talking to again! I don't know what to do??? I told him countless times that she would lie in wait and try to get her foot back in the door. Frankly, in my opinion, he's holding it open for her.

I get all the analogies...he has his cake and is eating it too. I really don't need that lecture. I can only begin healing when he gets out of there. But, until that occurs I need to try to get through today.

Should he or should he not have the 'leave me along' conversation again???????

Please do NOT tell me that he needs a new job. I know this and so does he. But, if you've seen the markets lately this is not really a super time for change. No excuses...simple reality. I strongly disagree that the harley's would recommend poverty right now. Just, please, help me with this particular issue before the day gets away with us.

Tell him if he talks to her you walk.

What part of no in NC are you having trouble comprehending?

Fiori,


No he should not talk to her at all no matter what. He needs to completely ignore her. Also, if someone hand delivers a message he needs to ask who it is from and if it's from her he needs to refuse it.

That is the simple answer until he can find a new job.

I really do feel for you. I know what is going on over at the office and I'm sure it is torture for the BS

LC

NO HE SHOULD NOT......BUT YOU SHOULD!! NO CONTACT means NO CONTACT and he should not have any with her, it just opens the door for more contact.

DO NOT LET HIM GO AND TALK TO HER......

I agree with the others. He shouldn't go to talk to OW. I think he should email the worker who passed him the note not to do that again and let you see a copy of it.

I don't have any lecture but a couple of questions...
I'm curious, the fact that she said she needs to speak to him regarding a work file, what is his explanation about that?

Has OW moved back into your H's building yet?

He's not...I just got a message from him. But, I got yelled at before (mildly) that NC means NC from both he and I. This means that I cannot speak to her either. So, do you break this rule? I told him I was going to come down town today and kick her A$$ but he told me I would only make things worse. Oh, you mean it can be worse????? Maybe it's his a$$ that I should be kicking.

Hmmm....violence. It's really not me but almost helps to imagine.

NO.

Under the circumstances, it will do no good. Exposure to work will be more effective.

this,
No, she has not moved into the building. There is a proposed date of October 30 for them to move. They will be on another floor, but too close for my comfort. The reason she wrote to him is that the person who was was working on the project with reports directly to H. This person was given the email a while after because it was never responded to.

But, my problem is that her comfort level with a contact is obvious. She obviously has no trepedation as to whether or not she can contact him. I really want to contact her and make her go away. Is it illegal to go to her, make myself known and simply remind her that she needs to quit or I'll see to it that she's fired? The very first time I met her she was concerned that I'd get her fired. Now I regret that I did not. My H's co-workers are a bunch of boobs. If I contacted one of them they would not care in the least. He's already contacted her boss twice and had them speak with her regarding personal contact. So, she just made it about work....so I suppose this seems ok to her. And, he's the VP. Does he NOT fix work related issues just because he's dumb and she's a ho?

Sorry, I'm a little bitter today. It's a foolish feeling to be taken advantage of like this. I don't want to kick him out. I know he's worth it. But, I'm not going to stand by while he wipes his feet on me. He fails to see how he's making a fool of me. He believes that business and emotions can be seperated. Obviously not or I would not be her.

H works very closely with one guy in particular. I have considered calling his wife and chatting with her and seeing whether or not it would be beneficial to get more info regarding OW. This person also works closely with her and lives in her state. What do you think about this approach? I would help her if she came to me.

I don't know about legalities but why waste your time with a threat (which is more likely to be the illegal part). Just go ahead and do it!!!!

I don't think there is really anything you can do about OW especially when she can just use work as a reason to contact him.

Yeah, I would do that. You need to get a clearer picture of what is going on here. I don't think you are getting the full story...

Unfortunately the guy is home sick today so I'll just wait til tomorrow to contact his wife. I could also contact him directly, but even though H is being a turd, I still think there has to be some level of territorial respect. I know....I'll smack myself with the 2X4!!! Anyway, you treat people like you'd want to be treated. I don't follow the idea about two wrongs....my gut just says it's wrong. But, his wife....I feel ok about that, sort of.

Hi Fiori,

I don't post much and have never posted to you but I read your entire thread this morning cause I still fantasize about confronting the OW. I don't even know what she looks like except what DH has told me.

Wouldn't this be the perfect time to take that NC letter out of moth balls? It would let OW know that your FWH is serious. She obviously is a little dense. I would also contact HR. It would be so much easier if she quit. Did you ever expose to OWH? I think he should be contacted again even if you already have.

God's Blessings,

Say

I know this isn't a popular opinion per se, and maybe I just got lucky, but making myself known to the skank made her run and hide like the insect she is.

I called her to confront her (she lives several states away), and she knew it was me and wouldn't answer, so I texted her and called her every filthy name in the book. Then I exposed to her BF, and when she realized I was getting close to contacting him she tried to run me off (called me, I hung up on her, then she texted me pretending to be him). Haven't heard a peep out of her since.

Say,
You have such a calming tone...it helps alot.

The NC letter. Hmm....where to go with that? The intent was to hold on to it until there was some form of contact. The problem is, I have no idea if the joke is on me. Perhaps there's been contact all along and I simply caught it. H tried to tell me that this was an isolated incicent and that the only reason he has the email is because co-worker brought it to him because H's lack of response put it in his lap. Sooo....this could all be a big fat lie. Maybe they have not had a personal relationship, but surely they've had professional contact. I do believe he thinks I'm as dumb as he's acting. It's so hurtful. I look at my children and I don't want to break their hearts. Their dad is usually a good man....just not since OW came into our lives.

I've tried to explain to him that it is obvious that she has no consideration for his feelings or she would not still attempt to contact him. Short of stalking her, I'm not sure what more I can do. I've told him in no uncertain terms that there would be a choice and it would happen tongight. He does not understand it when I say he's making a fool out of me. I feel like it's a mockery of our relationship by having any form of contact with her.

So, do I go see her? Does this simply open a can of worms? Maybe I could 'accidentally' run into her somewhere. Then, we can have it out. But, this would take soooo much time. Sorry, I'm babbling. None of this makes sense. H will be home in one hour. How do I act? Angry? Sad? Depresssed? I'll simply volunteer to take our son to soccer and run away for two hours. It's really better that way... I've lost any energy to fight.

Oh, and about the OW having a husband...nope! He bailed on her right before she set her sights on my husband. That's how all this mess started. She came to her foolishly compassionate boss for a should to cry on. Voila! Instant EA!

Hello friend.

I'm so sorry to hear about this.

It really does suck!

I'm a fan of YOU telling her that NC means NC!!

I'm definitely NOT a fan of HIM talking to her. Come on now, that's EXACTLY what she wants.

Hang in there!

Well...after way too many tears and alot of heated conversation, H has finally agreed to the fact that the new email OW sent is, in fact, a renewed attack on our marriage. He spoke with her boss today and asked that he remind his dept. that any requests that have to be made from his area to deal with issues go to someone other than him. They have set up a new email distribution spot that will only take these types of requests and will be answered by someone other than H. I may have to deal with this mess until he finds another job.

I'm shocked and dismayed by the amount of anger I have in me. I say things that almost make me seem like someone else. It's a little scary. Time to find a IC and get my head on straight. I cannot believe I let another person do this to me. I am sooo much better than this.

Here's hoping for a better weekend.

H is in the other room right now. He should be at work but has come back home. Hmmm....I'm always suspicious when he does stuff like this. It's angering, though, because he says he wants to talk with me but he's sitting there emailing people from work to set up his day. Very frustrating. So, I wait. He's already quelled me fears that there is dire news coming my way. He cleared that up the minute he walked in the door. But, he sees that we are in a trap of negativity and apparently wants to find a way to snap out of it. Ok, I know a way....quit your job, get a new one and skewer the OW. That seems to be the same tune I've been singing all along. But, we'll see. So, if any of you are feeling like praying today...this would be a good day for me.

I just said a prayer for you. Keep us updated.

My life is in absolute shambles. Things have gotten sooo much worse since I last wrote. I'm actually starting to lose faith in the MB principles. Because I read and read and read about full exposure...I pushed my h to reporting OW once again because of her inappropriate continuance to try to get H to contact her. So, after the weekend is over she realizes he's not getting or answering her emails. She totally flips out. On Tuesday night she called he blackberry at 12 midnight to confront him as to why he's not returning any messeges. He, again, explains to her that this has gotten completely out of hand and that there is absolutely NO romantic notions that she should have in her head. He explains to her that he enjoyed her as a friend but it's obvious that that cannot work because she took it too far and began fantacizing...

Anyway, after a brief conversation she becomes to be unglued. She was screaming and threatening to kill herself. The right thing for him to do would be to come and wake me up and let us as a couple decide what course to take. Instead, he slinked out of our house and drove to hers (45 min. away) to see that she did not kill herself. He entered to her laying on the floor in a heap with a large bottle of pills and a knife on the table.

I woke up at 2 and noticed he was gone. His cell was turned off so I called a neighbor to sit with the kids and drove off to the lair. I had my camera ready to photograph his car in her driveway. As I found the house he was walking out the door. I parked and began snapping photos. He tried to speak with me and explain but I was out of touch at this point. Her neighbor came out to see if there was a problem. I told him "yea, there's a problem....your next door neighbor is a slut and she's having an affair with my husband!" Then, I went on the porch and began knocking on her door and ringing the bell. Two seconds later five cop cars surround the property. Apparently the suicidal faker felt threatenend by me. They pulled all of us apart to opposite corners and questioned all. I told them everything....Thankfully they all felt sadness for me and were exceptionally supportive. These four strange men offered me more compassion than H ever did through this entire event.

So, in light of this I suppose things are changed forever. I'm not sure how to ever recover from this betrayal. Oh, and the big move on the 30th to his building....that happened weeks ago. H just neglected to tell me. One of his co-workers accidentally said it to me in a random conversation when I called looking for him at 5am. I believe I'm having a nervous breakdown and will connect with a counselor today. My heart is heavy and it's aching. I just can't believe this is my life. I have loved this man with all my heart and he's treating me like I don't even matter. He calls his escapade poor judgement. And, he's asked that I refrain from smearing his reputation to our friends and relatives. He says it's not fair that he made a series of mistakes and will now have to pay for it for the rest of his life by being judged by our relatives & friends.

So, our original deal was....he wrote a NC letter. They had already established NC so it seemed weird to send. He said "if there is any attempted form of contact I have no problem if you send the letter". Considering how this all played out and the possibility that she could try to have him fired and attempt suicide....DO I SEND THE LETTER?

PLEASE DON'T RIP ME A NEW HEAD WITH A LOT OF 'I TOLD YOU SO'S' I'M REALLY IN NO SHAPE TO HEAR IT.

This you know in your heart: his head is still more concerned about HER than YOU.

A suicide threat gets a call to 911, period. That is, if his head's on right.

He still wants to be a knight in shining armor - to HER, not you.

Therefore, Plan B will give you the most peace and sanity. He's more concerned about keeping his image right than making right with you.

He still doesn't get it.

You need to feel safe. You need less drama in your life. Therefore, how's your Plan B letter coming along? I'd kick him out by the weekend, if not tonight.

He thinks she won't contact him again? That's truly what the idiot thinks? She just got her way with him. Suicide threats work. So she can and will do whatever it takes to get ANY attention from him and get you fed up. He's willing to be played and you should choose out of the game.

(((((fiori)))))

I agree - start writing the PBL and making whatever other preparations necessary.

I'm sorry you are going through this nightmare fiori Plan B now and expose to the family.


Unbelievable and sad but true. I know the feeling.


Fiori, expose him to family and friends and even sit your children down to explain what's going on. Further exposure at work is pointless. Don't tell H that you are going to expose. Just do it. Stop protecting an image of H that doesnt exist anymore. You aren't smearing his reputation, this is who he is right now. Pretending otherwise will eat at you and cause further resentment that you protect his image for whatever misguided or noble reasons while you take one emotional blow after another at his hands. The kindness and compassion that was shown to you last night from total strangers is likely what you will receive from family and friends when you relieve yourself of this burden of hiding H's dirty little secret.

If OW was going to the extreme of threatening suicide, I think this was way more than an EA.

((((((Fiori))))))

You are telling OUR STORY.

Many of US have gone through this or WORSE.

Your WH is FOLLOWING THE WAYWARD SCRIPT. No different. No worse than my H was.

We UNDERSTAND how hard it is to accept and believe.

Mimi..who found her THEN WH at the motel..just short of a police call if my mother didn't come to calm me down...

((((Fiori)))))

The timeline according to your H as I understand it is...
They have not spoken, seen or emailed starting in Feb...until just recently when you find one paper email that another coworker handed to him from OW. He doesn't respond. She calls him about it. He reinforces the fact that they can't email, and she threatens to kill herself...

I need to ask you, do you believe this or do you think there is more to the story?

I believe there is always more to the story. I've learned that there are variables in place that prevent him from being totally honest. Like, maybe, he's an A$$!!! But, yes, there's always room for more.

As for total exposure...done deal. I've spoken to many family members, including his mother and mine as well as several of our friends & neighbors. I also called her sister who lives up North and apprised her of the "suicide" attempt and the relentless carrying on by her sick sibling. I've made no bones about the fact that i fell my husband was an equal participant, but that SHE needed to deal with the fragility of her sister, not H.

The sister has called me a few times already today. Last night when we originally spoke she had a very nice and accepting/apologitic tone. Amazingly today she is a bit hostile and accusatory. Gee, I wonder who she spoke to and what she was fed? So, she has requested that H call her directly so the two of them can figure out exactly HOW to deal with nutty OW/sister. I told her I'd pass along the messege but doubted he'd comply. I was right...he thought it was interesting that she called me again twice but thought it sent the wrong messege to OW. ding, ding, ding, ding!!! You see, sometimes in a moment of clarity they get a little nugget!

So, H does not plan on calling her back tonight. So he says. I will concentrate on my son's honors convocation and try to emerse myself in pride for him!

Don't take anymore phone calls from nut's sister. She's been informed, let her deal with OW's drama and be done. Where are you and WH at this point?

This is what her sister asked her to do. Then they can negotiate more contact.

No contact for life.

This event set you back to day one of withdrawal and recovery. And the whole event reeks of something more.

If he succumbs to any more contact I would set him on the porch like the Flintstone cat, make sure the windows are closed and set right into Plan B.

Good question...where are we?

We battered and bruised but still with a beating heart. My faith in him is nil. He knows this and must claw us both out of the hole he's in. I've told him that if he even thinks she's done with him he's nuts.

I suppose you could call him remorseful and full of shame. But, we still have a disconnect on intentions. He feels he had the right intention but the wrong approach. DUH?!!

I just got off the phone with a IC. I will see her on Tuesday and she's also able to see H and I together. There's no insurance for this so I'm thinking I'll go one week then the next time we can go together. My anger right now is out of control. I actually was able to rip the side view mirror off his car. That sounds stupid saying it, but I have the bruises on my hand to prove it. Now, if only I could translate some of that physical to emotional strength.

Response to OW's sister should have been - "She's not my husband's problem - and if she calls again, I will be calling 911, or a cop to stop her harassment. Please make that clear to your sister, this time and for the next time she gets involved with a married man!"

Are you able to acknowledge that this might be a full blown PA? Have you asked your H for a polygraph?

What was the story the other morning you woke up at 5am and he wasn't there?

Ditto.

I'm so sorry you're going through this fiori. He clearly doesn't get it still.

Now that you have exposed, is there a close friend or family member that you can call on for support? Looking at your siggy, it's been almost 1 yr that you are dealing with this crap and you're ripping cars apart fiori and have made zero progress to restore your marriage. You need to draw the line before you are completely wiped out. Have you considered plan B at all?

Fiori, did you mean to write this? email(s) as in plural? Does this mean there have been more? Are you SURE that your WH has been totally honest with you about contact? He sure wasn't honest about the OW's move to his building. I'd bet there's been face-to-face contact.

I agree with the others, there's more here than what you've been told.

OW is clearly unstable. I don't get why she would threaten suicide all the sudden over an EA though, especially if they haven't had contact in awhile. Sounds to me like your insistence on contacting HR backfired on your WH big time. If they had been having contact all along, maybe a visit from HR is what set her off. She didn't see it coming?

You say you're ready to give up on the MB plans? If you think about it sweetie, you've been modifying the plans to suit your own situation (i.e., no contact letter being withheld, AP continuing to work together, etc.) This hasn't worked. The MB plans DO work when followed as directed.

Now, for your own sanity, maybe it's time for Plan B until your WH is ready to commit to the marriage (and YOU!). Placing OW's needs ahead of yours is not being committed to the marriage. Sneaking out in the middle of the night to come to her aid is not being committed to the marriage.

((((Fiori)))) I feel your pain through your words.

You don't need to stay in this place. Settle this thing. Once and for all.

Dear Fiori (and hi to everyone else),

Please read my very long post to Tully on her "what to do when the other woman won't give up" thread. You must understand why this is already a renewed PA and what is at stake if you do not withdraw from the drama right now until your H has found another job and satisfied you that NC is a reality.

Stop trying to make NC happen by your actions. All that is happening is that he is becoming more deceptive. NC has to become his own personal objective. Go into Plan B as soon as you have sorted out the legal and financial ramifications and put the onus on him to ask you to come back to him only when he can prove to you that NC is established.

My heart aches for you.

Sugar.

OW is clearly a Bunny Boiler link 1 and link 2

When was the last time WH saw Fatal Attraction? Maybe it's time to rent that DVD.

This is my favorite thing anyone has ever said to me! Thanks...in this moment of insanity it felt good to smile.

To all of you...I can't see me doing Plan B. I'm a chicken. I have no where else to go and I'm sooooo afraid that if I make him go he'll go to her. And, then there is the embarrassment of it all. I know...smack me now. But, I simply cannot do it. I also cannot live like this any longer and I know this to be true. Honestly, I'm not sure WHAT to do right now. My mother fed-exed me a check today for $1500. I suppose she's got a plan.

As for a PA...it does not seem to be the case but I'm not sure. This has been corroborated by a few sources but who ever really knows. I wish I had the answers. I'll ask about a lie detector, but I don't see this ever happening. First, I'm going to work on ME. Then, I'll look around and see what's left to deal with. I pray constantly for him to get another job. Please, please, please. I know that's no guarantee, but it is a start. I told him today -- until you have left the job or she has left the job, there will be absolutely NO progress on our part. If you'd like to remain here as a roommate then fine...but I'm NOT letting you off the hook or being an enabler any longer. It's time to sh** or get off the pot!! (my grandmothers old saying.)

Meg,
No, I meant it. Because H is an AVP for a certain dept., he has to occassionally recieve updates from the other area's in order to fully process the info from his area. She slowed down a bit on her persuit when he forcefully told her to take a hike. H firmly believes that even if she persues him hard and furiously, if he's not interested in her romantically then her efforts will be in vain. I totally disagree.

But, he was continuing to get strictly work related emails from her about a certain project one of H's employees and she were tending to. I saw the email on the dining room table and was very angry. We went round and round and then he agreed with MC that it was absolutely necessary to have a paper trail of the stuff she does against his wishes. So, he went to her boss on Friday and make a second request to have her spoken to regarding contacting him in any way. Boss said he'd speak with her and they also established a dump mailbox where any and all requests pertaining to the two groups combining efforts would go to one spot and H would have his employees be on a rotating shift to answer these types of exchanges. This is why/how she went off. She realized after several attempts that he was not responding. Normally if she did try he would have another one of his employees take care of it. I suppose this enabled her to realize he got the email, just ignored her. So, when the system changed and he would be deleted from the distribution list, she lost it. He has her email address blocked as spam and it's automatically dumped. Apparently this was not appreciated.

So, the phone call went....'my brother hates me, my sister and I don't get along, my husband left me, my mother died and now you're leaving me too. You are my friend and you are telling me you'll never speak to me. All the people I care about leave me...I'm going to kill myself". So, my question to him was, If she was really going to kill herself why did she make a grand announcement first? Usually people who are planning to take their own lives do not seek out a sucker unless they really are looking for attention.

Approach your WH from a different angle ...

.... I don't like this much .... it's far too vague

Refer to OW as "The Bunny Boiler" when speaking to WH .... state that BB is dangerous .... repeat for emphasis

SHE IS DANGEROUS AND MENTALLY UNSTABLE

Remind WH it is his job to protect his wife and kids from DANGEROUS individuals - and you have a strict "NO BUNNY BOILER POLICY"

If he's going to rescue people - it needs to be you and the kids

repeat to him

SHE IS UNSTABLE AND DANGEROUS .... WE NEED YOUR PROTECTION .... CALL 911 IF SHE EVER TRIES TO PUSH HER DANGEROUS TENDENCIES BACK INTO THIS FAMILY

Draw a circle on a piece of paper .... put yourself and the kids inside the circle ... then draw BB far away from the circle and draw WH half way between the circle and BB .... tell WH that he has left the family to go be with BB .... is that REALLY his choice?

All your hesitation and fears of plan B are completely undrestandable and relatable.
The question isnt can you do it? The question isnt what happens if you do it?

The Question is what happens if you dont do it?

I noticed in your signature line that you said 500th d day so I am assuming that you have still more D days that you (self proclaimed chicklen little ) have the courage to deal with . I admire your courage with dealing with them. I for one could barely stand upright after one let alone be strong enough to stand up and let some one knock me down again.
Sorry for the :twobyfour: but I guess you should sit tight do nothing and keep counting until you reach your threshold of maximum number of Ddays that you can take and then redirect some of that courage that you do indeed have towards helping you stop continuning to be a BS.

start :twobyfour:
From my window into your house it seems like the Pot is pretty crowded in your house.
end :twobyfour:

No, that was typed in a moment of anger & frustration. It just feels that since they are still working for the same company, every day he goes to work feels like a d-day for me. I cannot believe how much he's hurt and disappointed me.

Question...now that we've all established the fact that I have a bunny boiler on my hands, do I send the NC letter? Obviously there will be no actual NC until he or she leave the company, but it has to be stated in writing that he has no intentions of going with her. Will this tip her off into a rage? Will she potentially make trouble for him at work? Am I taking a chance that way too big?

Fear is normal. But regardless of what you do or don't do, there are only a few possible scenarios that WILL happen, like it or not. He's either going to (a) continue to cake eat, (b) leave you for her, or (c) leave her for you. You already know how painful option a is. This is what he wants. Eventually you will break down and probably drive him to option b. And guess what - all the things you are afraid of in Plan B (him going to her, where you are going to go, the embarrassment, how you are going to live etc.), they all apply here. You want option c. You can't control his choices and right now you aren't even asking him to choose. But you can make your own choices. You can choose not to be destroyed by option a any longer. You can put the choice to him - is it b or c? Yes, he could try b for a while but you already know she's a nutcase. If he's got the choice between the bunny boiler vs an intact you, what do you think he's going to do? The key is - you have to be intact. The healthier you are, the better and more clearer this choice is for him to make.

And the thing is, when HE makes the choice, he will be far more likely to stick to it. It's easy to sneak around behind someone else's back. It's far more difficult to sneak around yourself.

I know you are afraid. But many of the things you fear will happen anyway - either under or out of your control. Take control - it's empowering.

So, do I mail the NC letter that he wrote or not?

Wow, Tabby excellent post.

If I can add to it...

Fiori, I read something here a very good poster had written that had said something about moving to Plan B when you have lost the ability to not LB. Do you think you are to that point? It sounds like you are frequently LBing.

I don't know how mentally you would be to control LBers anymore. Every day was a struggle not to LB for me in Plan A and I barely made it through a few weeks.

I have a good friend who experienced exactly what Tabby is warning you about. She LB'd her cake-eating WH following D-day for about two years. Well, he did eventually leave her for OW, and she is still struggling emotionally more than five years later... When I told her about my H's EA and about how I found MB, about Plan A/Plan B, she told me she wished she had known.

I think worrying about whether to send the NC letter at this point is not seeing the forest for the trees...

True. Get your whole plan together. When you are ready to act, then send the letter. Not before or else he won't take you seriously. Your last communication to him before going dark is the letter. Then there really is no contact until he meets the conditions of the letter. You can't maintain darkness if there are still other loose ends to tie up.

No point in a NC letter being sent while there is not NC. NC will be impossible while they're in such close quarters.

Are you willing to consider Plan B seriously, and a very good chance of recovering your marriage, or do you want to just keep on letting him/them torture you till you're sick of it, and get a divorce?

No one is going to force you into Plan B. If you do it, it has to be your choice.

and there's only room for so much crap.

I have no advise on the bunny boiler issue (LOL) but IMHO what you need is not a NC letter, you need a plan B letter.
NC letter is supposed to be from your WH to OW, not from you. There is no need for that if there is no intent nor plan on his part for NC.
Plan B is in order to see if your WH wants to save your M and move towards NC and recovery with you or like Tabby said option C where he decides to leave her for you.
You cant decide for him nor can you protect your H from Bunny boiler's potential response if and when he leaves her.

Cake eating is not a path towards recovery, it only ensures that you return to sit on the crapper again and like you said its time to ....

It is imperative for you to PLAN A until PLAN B, IMO. Like the other poster said, that means NO LOVEBUSTING. I completely understand how hard it is for you to go into PLAN B. It was for me. It is scary. As long as he is in contact with her, your PLAN option is PLAN A.

You have just had another D-DAY and are devastated and trying to emotionally cope with the devastation.

Try to work on your own self-healing for a few days. Try to get to a place of EMOTIONAL CONTROL before you proceed.

EMOTIONAL CONTROL is best in order to execute ANY PLANS.

Been there right with you, Fiori...while my H was maintaining contact...leaving me to be with her EACH WEEKEND...thinking he was eventually going to end it, when all the while he was planning on leaving me to be with her...he even bought a condo...TODAY, we are happier than EVER...

BUT, I first had to gain EMOTIONAL CONTROL...to work the plans...

I became DETERMINED to FIGHT for MY MARRIAGE. I believed that MBers' was the BEST AMMUNITION possible. During this time, STUDY up on THE PLANS before jumping into anything. To me, right now, you certainly don't seem ready, that is, EMOTIONALLY PREPARED for the RIGORS of PLAN B. We want you to be able to STICK with it when and if you go into B....

Someone said that you have three options...let the cake-eating continue, he leaves you for her, he leaves her for you...but you do not have control over the last two. You need to focus on the things that YOU have the power to change.

I know that you are feeling so sad. His cake-eating, regardless of the extent of the A (EA or PA) is hurtful to you. Right? So what can YOU do to protect yourself from that hurt? Your H is not protecting you.

People talk a lot about self-care and I think you agree that it is important. So look at this protection as self-care. What can you do to protect yourself?

Brainstorm:
Plan A...takes a lot of energy from you and still lets him cake-eat.
Plan B...scary, both financially and emotionally.
Plan C...stick with what you're doing and hope for the best...doesn't protect you or your love for your H.
Plan D...maybe too drastic and lets go of all hope for a future together.

So, Plan A and C allow cake-eating...something that you KNOW is hurtful to you. Plan D is pretty final and you've said you have hope for your M. That leaves Plan B. What have you got to lose?

If he leaves you for her, you cannot control that no matter what plan you do. That will be HIS decision. Focus on YOU.

With Plan B, he is still financially responsible for your children. He should still have to pay the mortgage (as if he were paying alimony). What do you lose? Sure, it will change your lifestyle, but at this point, he doesn't get that the OW is a deal-breaker for you. He thinks you'll be pissed off about his contact with her, but you won't do anything drastic because you haven't yet. He may need the shock of Plan B to see that you really mean to protect yourself even if it means that you have to protect yourself from him.

Nobody knows what the future will hold. But if you continue to allow him to hurt you this way, in a sense, you have yourself to blame. What you're doing right now isn't working...so maybe you should try something different.

LOVE YOU,
MS

Eesh...why on earth would there even be any DEBATE over who he'd rather be involved with?! WTH could that looney tune POSSIBLY be offering that's so attractive...even sex can't be worth all that drama.

PLAN C is equal to PLAN D...It's PLAN A or PLAN B according to MBers'.

When I did PLAN C, my husband fell more and more with the OW because I was ENABLING the AFFAIR. I did it for close TWO YEARS while he eventually grew to "LOVE" her..

Broken, my H was with a looney-tune, too.

It's AN ADDICTION. Waywards are TEMPORARILY INSANE.

She's offering him some kinda DRUG that SANE people cannot possibly understand.

Yeah, but WHAT?! It just boggles my mind. My FWH's OW was hardly an upstanding "woman" either. I guess I just don't get it because I haven't done that.

Mimi,
What turned your husband around?

I FEEL SOOOOOO STUPID

Eventually, PLAN B. But it took me AWHILE to be able to do PLAN B, too.

I completely UNDERSTAND you feelng STUPID...I remember that FEELING...but work on not allowing anyone to make you feel this way....

Begin to FIGHT!!

I screwed up tonight. This afternoon I told him (knowing it was not possible) that in order for him to come home tonight and stay, he'd have to either quit his job or see to it that OW either was fired or quit herself. I was blazing mad so he knew I was serious. Well, I suppose the joke is on me. He came home with a pizza. The kids are both out with friends. We sat down and he ate ( I stopped that a while ago). I was ready. Teeth brushed, hair combed, sweater, phone & purse by the door. I casually say..."so, have any news for me?" He says, "yes, as a matter of fact I do...blah, blah, blah..." It was nothing I wanted to hear. So, I looked at him and squarely said "no, dear, I mean about either you or OW NOT working together any longer". He said "are you kidding me? You did not actually think that could happen between lunch time and now did you? I don't have the authority to have her fired and I surely could not quit myself given the fact that I've been trying to get a new job for several months now and cannot seem to even get asked for an interview".

Here's where I screwed up. My plan was to quietly pick up my purse and walk out the door. I chickened out. I can't be without this man. I can't do this!!!!! I can't imagine a day when he doesn't walk through the door, I can't imagine now hearing the shower run in the morning, I can't imagine how hard he is on the ironing board when he irons his pants...even after I've already done it. I can't imagine my boys faces when they come home to know he's not here. I can't live without this man. (no, I don't mean that literally).

It's just that all I ever wanted was to feel cherished. I wanted to be loved with the same capacity that I loved him. I believe that at one time it was there. But, what changed? When did the man I know become posessed by this? Who is he? Who am I? I am now just a chicken who can't imagine being alone. Is being with someone worth all this hurt? How come right now it seems like it is? I know I'm breaking the code here, but I feel so desperate and sad.

When did I become this weak person who cannot take care of herself? I've been taking care of others for many years now and I've loved every minute. When did he stop wanting to take care of me? I don't want to be a prison wardon. I don't want to smile with my floral apron on while he slinks off to make a call...I dont' want doubt and I don't want to be made a fool of.

Sorry...I'm just rambling. He's gone now. He took his briefcase and left because he did not get her fired today or he did not quit. So, kids are with friends, husband is at our Church setting up for our big auction and I am here writing to a bunch of strangers who will all have an opinion but really not every know exactly what I should or should not do.

Darkness is here. (melodrama aside).

You have to come up with a PLAN, Fi.

I felt the EXACT SAME WAY that YOU DO...

I wish you could have read my first posts on this forum.

I LITERALLY FELT LIKE I COULD NOT LIVE WITHOUT MY HUSBAND!! He's the ONLY MAN I've ever been with..since age 18..I was 50 or so when discovering his affair...

I had to come to terms with the TRUTH. My H, maybe unlike yours, was "In LOVE" with another woman...

That the ONLY WAY TO RECOVER MY MARRIAGE..which we have definitely accomplished..was for me to DO THE MB PLANS...

You are NOT READY for PLAN B...

You can do it SOON but not YET...

PLAN A..then PLAN B...

For example, where did you get THIS IDEA? What was the PURPOSE?


Another example, why did you SAY this?

I'm not pointing these things out to hurt you.

The point is, you are doing PLAN FIORI..

Sweetie, this WILL NOT WORK...

We will ALL have AN OPINION, yes.

But what's GREAT about US is WE HAVE ALL BEEN IN YOUR EXACT SAME SHOES!!!

I can speak to you from DIRECT EXPERIENCE!!

You sound almost EXACTLY like me about 5 years ago...

DEVASTATED, HEARTBROKEN, NOT KNOWING WHAT IN THE WORLD TO DO...HEART ACHING OUT OF MY CHEST...I'm telling you, I've been there...

What you are doing is NOT working. Why not take a chance and follow what these people suggest? So many of them have had such wonderful successes with it. You are losing what you wanted in the first place if you don't. So your fear that you will lose your H should be with you now...not just when you consider Plan B.

Listen to mimi. She sounds like her H went the same way yours is and she found the way out. Is it a for sure? No. But it's gotta be a better chance than what you're doing right now.

hugs

MS

EXACTLY!!

The plans work. Nothing else comes close for consistent positive results.

I've seen it first-hand once, and second-hand many times. They are very powerful.

{{{{{{fiori}}}}

Sending you hugs and warmth and hopefully strenght your way.
Its a roller coaster and some days are harder than others. Some time you need a :twobyfour: and some times you need a support.
Today it looks like support is what you need to get thru the darkness.
You can do it, you can figure out what works for you, its not all black and white, its not today or never. Life is gray, find the shade of gray that works for you.
We can all tell you our opinion and our experiences and you can use all of that knowledge and make the choice that works best for you. When ever you feel strong enough to deal with it all. When you feel weak or exhausted its ok to just take a break and rest.
Hang in there and you will make it through. There were days I thought I would never survive my situation. If you see my old thread (if you can find it ) there are many desperate feeling emails that I have typed of my own. Having lived thru that is what gives me the confidence and courage to say that you will make to the other end of this tunnel impossible as that make seem to you right now.
Hope tomorrow is brighter

Good morning, Fiori... How are you doing today?

It sounds like Mimi has been exactly where you are...waiting an extremely long time for NC without being able to really consider moving to Plan B. So I was thinking, why not open up more of a dialogue with her?

Maybe she can help walk you through your fears and help you prepare a Plan B JUST IN CASE you get to a place where you mentally need to make a change, so that you will have a plan in place rather than doing something rash...

Learning and processing how a Plan B would work for you doesn't mean you have to do anything today!

I just wanted you to know I recently read that when a person is emotially distraught, it can make one indecisive. That's where, I believe, the wisdom and experience of the folks on this board can really help you keep your thoughts straight. Hang in there and don't stop posting, OK?

today was bad...today was really bad. i can't even explain what goes on in my head. H says I'm dwelling on the negative and that if we are to prevail I have to give him a chance. Please....don't say anything. My eyes are open. i'm hurt but i'm not dead. no promises. it's very dark right here.

Mogi,
It's 6:45 my time. I think you just tried to call. I'm ok. I'm trying to NOT talk so I can NOT cry. But, I'm ok. Time to feed kids dinner and be ok.

Fiori,
How are you doing? I hope you are getting some support by phone or other e-mail today. Would your H be willing to come here and post to us? I just don't know if he ever fully understood the seriousness of his actions and the effect they are having on his marriage. Thinking of you,

Don't worry...I was going to write earlier today but our cable was down which impacted the internet. But, it was a little better than yesterday. Actually, it was alot better.

I agree with you. He REALLY does not get that his actions or lack or actions have had such a ripple effect. He really believes that if he's NOT romantically interested then it's ok to simply ignore the situation and act like there's no longer a problem. I call him "duck & cover H".

But, today was for me. I went to a counselor. It was good to be validated on some of my concerns as to how I'm reacting to certain situations. She said it's totally normal for me to be as obsessed with what he is doing as I am. H sometimes treats it like "ok, we'll deal with it today...but tomorrow you need to be over it". But, other days he's totally compassinate. IT's like he's two different people.

But, enough about him. Today was for me. I cried again in church. I think the people who see me there must think I'm dying. I get alot of relative strangers who just walk by me and put their hand on my shoulder. It's very helpful but it makes me cry harder when I realize how supportive strangers are and how cold my H seems at times. Very strange mix of emotions.

So, Sunday we will both go to the same counselor I went to today. She will work with us together and on our own. She likened our marriage to a train wreck that needed help getting back on track. Really, I feel a bit better --- I'M NORMAL!!!

I'll update more tommorrow. I'm tired and beaten but I'm not dead.

Lake,
I asked H about the potential of him speaking with you on this forum. He said he'd be very ok with speaking with you, but not on a public forum. He's very afraid that someone is going to figure out who he is and put together the puzzle pieces. I think that's a bit naive on his part, but I know I won't be able to change that. I've often wished he come here and get some much needed constructive criticism, but that's most likely NOT going to occur. Thanks for reaching out.

So glad to hear that you are taking some steps for YOUR sanity. It is important and easy to forget to do when you are so mired in the challenges of your M.

I know that when things were the worst for me, I didn't really even WANT to help myself...and that just made it worse. Someone told me here that whiny and needy are unattractive. At the moment, I wanted to smack them and tell them that I have a right to feel that way. But in retrospect, it didn't really help me much. Just like I tell my boys when they're unhappy, "It's ok to cry, but in the end, it won't get you anything but a runny nose and a headache."

I'm glad to hear that your H feels like he's turned a corner. And I agree, you have every right not to trust him. I would call you crazy if you did. But at the same time, you can be cautiously optimistic and while you continue to work on you and check up on him, you can watch his actions and see if what he says and what he does match.

BTW...YOU were there for me at my lowest. I am there for you now. ANYTIME YOU NEED ME.

MS

Hello Fiori,

On the recommendation of Sugar Cane, I read your thread today and I wanted to say that I think we have a lot in common. I read it quite quickly as I didn't have that much time and it was quite long but this is my reaction.

I think it's highly likely that he is having a PA with this woman. Their behaviour is very strong for an EA only. I read somewhere in one of the Harleys article that an EA and PA combined makes for a very potent and addictive mix. I hope I am wrong but I would definitely open your mind to that possibility.

I too am a stay-at-home mom and have been married (well including some years living together) for 20 years to a wonderful, kind, good man who gave me a marriage I felt lucky to be in. (this sounds like your H too) Yet he has been lying to me for the last year and has behaved awfully, saying and doing very hurtful things that I would never have imagined him capable of before. I am sure he would have denied a PA if he could have gotten away with it but he couldn't because I had hard evidence. My WH also is not a good communicator and until recently I thought he was not a good liar at all. He avoids discussion about emotions, especially negative ones and I am his only friend. I suspect your H has no friends in whom he confides either. My WH is very sociable and has lots of pals who he plays tennis with or who he talks superficially to but, until the arrival of OW, there was only me in whom he confided his innermost thoughts and feelings.

Just as you describe it's as if there are two different men, a Dr Jeckyll and Mr Hyde difference. I want so badly to believe in the 'good' version that I have been been living in the kind of mental agony you describe. Your thread was a bit of a revelation to me because it's so much easier to see things clearly from the outside for people who have nothing at stake. But in our own lives everything we have ever treasured is in danger and it's frightening. It is easy to blame the OW for everything because she is the 'outside enemy' (and I'm not excusing her) but the 'inside enemy' is the one we can't face up to because it feels so alien and unbelievable. However I believe that your inner he// is caused by a discrepancy between what your head is telling you and what your heart wants so badly to believe. Try to think of your H as an addict who lies, cheats, steals, hurts people all the while justifying his actions but that doesn't mean that he is a fundamentally bad person. He is bad at the moment but because he is in the throes of his addiction. For his sake, as well as your own and the children's you need to do what it takes to drag him out of this situation and back to reason.

FWIW, I think he is lying about the marks on his diary and even about the email you discovered. I think he is so sure of your love for him that he thinks he can do anything and he will not jeopardise it. It's not that your love is not precious to him, I think it is very much so, more that he even realises, but that it feels like an unshakeable certainty that will always be there for him no matter what he does.
I am also very uneasy about his nasty comments (eg about your dad) and they sound very familiar to me in that I got similar comments from my WH over the past year. They are destructive to your self-confidence but you need to ignore them for the rubbish they are and realise that the words of an addict don't mean much.
I hope I'm wrong, Fiori, and I would be thrilled if I am but I think it would be a good idea if you could, with as cool a head as you can, examine the idea that a full-blown A is going on.

My deepest best wishes are with you,

Tully

Tully,
No offense, but I really never wanted to speak to you. I've read a few pages of your postings and it's a freaky scary similarity.

I have NO idea what has gone on with my husband. All I can say is that I have NO idea who he is any more. I MUST get him out of that job and away from his daily fix. I may start surprising him at the office to shake things up a bit and put them off gaurd. I really wish I knew what to do. I want soooooo badly to remove her from our lives. I can't talk about this right now as I feel the sadness overcoming me once again. I feel for you and I do wish you a happy outcome. I'm sorry...it's just so hard because I identify with you too closely. Maybe tomorrow or another day I'll be able to chat with you. What state are you in? (if that's not private) I feel like we are married to the same man.

Sorry, fiori, I didn't mean to upset you. I'll disappear and not interfere any more.
I wish you all the best of luck and happier days with your whole family in the near future.

I didn't make you feel stupid, I'm sorry. Just reading about his behavior ticked me off so bad - I hate to see women so mistreated, that's why I was like - what the heck is it about this guy? He's a jerk!

Hi fiore,
I do understand your H's concern about confidentiality on this public forum. I worry about it for myself. Look at what happened to a fellow poster that is a friend of yours. I have thought a lot about your situation because it involves an EA. I think I responded to my H's EA in a similar way that you responded to your H's EA. There are some differences in that my H's EA was very secret and short term--a month. Your H's EA lasted for months and you and he were apparently able to delude yourselves that it was not an EA--even though you did not like what was going on--for months.

Another difference is that your H works in the same Corp. as the OW and is having a hard time leaving that environment.

My H has worked at the same Corp. for about 25 years. He does not feel able to move to a different situation that would give him the salary that he has at his job. I really don't know how we would have handled an EA at his work site.

It seems that my H's EA was triggered more by his sense of "lost youth" and an old High School girlfriend was the necessary component for him to test out if he still "had it". I do keep track of the women in his work environment now and warn him about women that I think he should be careful about--one in particular has come up so far since the EA.

I think that the two of you are in a cycle of problems:

1. He still works at the same corp. as OW. This fact triggers you daily. H@ll, I was triggered daily from other triggers not related to the work environment for months after the EA was ended.

2. He thinks that he can "manage" the situation and still work in the same work environment.

3. You cannot stop love busting because your triggers create such panic that you cannot stop yourself.

4. He is not being open and honest with you specifically in relationship to contact because of your anger when you panic. He thinks he needs to manage the situation and this leads to his dishonest behavior. Examples of this are: The e-mail you found from the OW in his briefcase, the fact that she had moved back into his building, the visit to OW's apartment in the middle of the night to prevent "suicide."

5. As I look at all of this, I can't tell if there is more contact between the two of them or not. But I suspect that there IS more contact. I am just a sideline viewer. I can only imagine how you feel. It is only normal that you suspect TONS more contact.

6. Has there been more e-mail one sided business contact that he thought he was managing? Was he using intermediaries to manage his e-mail from her related to business issues and then responding to the issues as needed? If so, this was "contact" and was deceitful to you and makes it impossible for YOUR recovery. I suspect something like this was going on.

7. So you continue to panic and continue to love bust because you have NO TRUST. You are acting rationally. But it puts your marriage at great risk. And she is always there in the wings--her act is not real, it is not time tested. It is a fantasy, but there it is. And he responded by thinking he was the knight in shining armour and tried to save her in the middle of the night.

8. How can he get back the woman he married when he is putting you in a position to be an angry woman in a constant state of panic?

9. How can you trust when you were just on a lawn snapping pictures?

Does he yet see what he has created?

Oh Tully, I'm not mad at you...I'm mad at me. I'm sooo sorry. I really did not want to upset you as I'm sure there is enough of that in your life already. Please, accept my apology. I do welcome your input and maybe would even be able to talk with you in person if that ever were the case. But, it's so hard.

We are one in the same. That is sad. A club I never wanted to join. We'll both be ok. I'm sure of that!

Silly you! You did not make me feel stupid-- I make me feel stupid. I used to be this intelligent stong person who has turned into a marshmallow. YUCK!!!! It's not very appealing for me to look at myself...imagine how gross I look to H.

Lake,
I love the 'sound' you give of when you write. It's as good as the wisdom that comes across when 'schoolbus' writes.

As for a lot of your posting. You have hit alot head on. H has also worked for this same corp for 21 years. He's worked his way up from entry level to VP and has done a stellar job. This particular person stepped into our lives just as our children were reaching teen years, H turned 42 and I 44. He is stuck at a crossroad. Biology has decided for me that I will not have any more children. I would have love more but this was not to be the case. H can create life right up til his last breath. Enter the young chippy who's offering her over-ripe eggs like dessert. She's very persistant and unforgiving. He was ripe for the picking and I just did not see the signs until it was too late. I never knew he found me to be unapproachable. I never knew he was bored...or whatever he was to do this.

Our country puts such an emphasis on work and success. He's totally bought into the fact that as long as he's providing a good home and $$ then he's a good husband and dad. Ok, so what about time? When do you offer that? I've been displeased with his attitude towards work for many years. He seems to feel I should be able to seperate the two, now. But, it is all tainted now. OW could easily do the right thing and vacate her position. She, at her level of employment, is expendable. Her position comes a dime a dozen and his does not. We are talking upper management in the financial industry while our country's financing are tanking!

Tonight I explained to him that it was inexcuseable to expect me to live like this any longer. Right now he is in the other room mulling over a plan. I want a plan...something concrete that he has to follow to a 't'.

I was given a book yesterday by a neighbor of mine called "Maybe God Was Right After All". I've only read 1/4 of it but the messege is clear -- God gives you the knowledge of being able to discern right from wrong. We, as humans, will often test the limits and choose wrong, even if that nagging sensation in the back of our mind says we should choose right. The hindsight is what gets us all the time. We look at the debris feild left by choosing wrong and stand there scratching our heads saying 'maybe God was right after all". It's a powerful messege.

I'd like to anonymously have one shipped to OW. She professes to be this amazing Catholic. What do you think of that? I know it breaks NC, but let's face it...that's not an issue here -- yet.

Hi Fiori,

You sound better than last week. How's your hand?

My H is like yours were work is concerned. I can't even enjoy H's professional success anymore as it's tainted by his A partner being a co-worker. Unlike yours, my H and OW no longer work for the same company. Praise the Lord! Friends at H's work who know about the affair have been great to me but it doesn't feel the same anymore when we go out socially. H has talked about quitting for a variety of reasons but the job is only on aspect of it all. H's A ruined so many things for us.

An amazing Catholic who goes after married men and is into suicide drama... :RollieEyes: You could send it with an inscription that you hope she doesn't burn in he// but from the looks of it...;)

BR,
I can't tell you how I'm doing 'this week' as I'm only able to take things hour by hour. Perhaps I'll upgrade to day by day soon enough.

Last night H and I had a long talk which did NOT end up in an argument. I told him the other day that he needed to present me with a plan. He had alot of very interesting ideas...but they are worthless without his actually putting them into practice. I have no real idea as to whether or not he's gotten his eyes opened yet. He did talk with a neighbor of mine who attempted to get him to see how foolish his choices are. He did indicate to her that the boys and I were and will always be his first priority. I, understandable, cannot believe him in this statement.

AS for my hand, it's fine. I must be stronger than I thought. When I see his car it's a constant reminder of the horrible night. His car is due for inspection next week so he'll have to get that fixed. He'll most likely grumble about the cost but I really could care less. He also may grumble about counseling costs....he better not!!!

So, before I go run my Halloween based errands....How are you doing?

I'm doing okay. The weather is gloomy and it makes me feel a little depressed. Trying to stay busy and make some plans for Christmas vacation. Glad to hear your hand is alright. What were H's ideas...dare I ask?

dear fiori-

i have been reading your posts and something really jumps out at me that i can soooo relate to-

YOU ARE BEATING YOURSELF UP WAY TOO MUCH!!!!!

Please - love yourself first.

if you do this- then you will start to change.... then your H will notice a non-neediness in you and feel attracted to you and actually CHASE YOU.

i WAS you. My FWH cheated on me for 12 years with 12 different women- its way too long a story - but i had many clues during those years that i chose to ignore.

WHY?????????????????

i was afraid of life without him and if i knew for sure of his affairs- i knew i would have to give him an ultimatum. i knew that i might not be his choice.

so- i merely existed in a fog- gave up my best years and threw myself into my children and my friends.

many times during this last 15 months since d-day , when he confessed- i have beaten myself up just like you.

WHY WASNT I STRONGER????
WHY WASNT I SMARTER????
WHY DID I BELIEVE ALL HIS LOUSY/STUPID EXCUSES?????
WHY?? WHY?????????

anyway- it wasnt until i started to learn to love myself that my marriage and i changed. it is so hard when a person is a giver. thats what i was too.

my therapist called me a "st. bernard"- wantint to save everyone.

it was unhealthy for me and for you too.

go to the book store and buy some books about self improvement. Try Louise Hay - You Can Heal YOur Life.

then start to make yourself happy.

you will be amazed at your husband's reaction when you dont NEED to talk to him.

i know this may seem surreal now-- as you seem to still be in the shock and anger phase. i was there for 9 months and it got me nothing but heartache and sickness.

if you can make yours shorter- life will get better.

i hope this gives you some comfort.

remember- YOU ARE DOING THE BEST YOU CAN WITH YOUR LIMITIED ABILITIES AT THE TIME.

and - would you really be as hard on anyone else as you are on yourself???

You are reacting naturally.

you can change and grow from this,

with love and support,
SF

Fiori,
Your story sounds sooooooooo much like mine. Except that my WH's A is still going on with the "POC" OW (I prefer Greasy Little Booze Hag). I only found out 3 months ago and my bullheaded POC H is still living at home -- refuses to leave. I can't separate from him yet, because I was just laid off my job. The way I see it, the VERY LEAST that he owes me is to support me financially and I WILL take advantage of that, thank you very much! Yes, life is hell. BUT....I am finally learning to trust my own instincts. (Prayer has a LOT to do with it. It helps. God knows how to handle things better than we do and if we just put trust in him, he won't fail us. Try it.)

I've learned to ask myself before doing or saying anything: "does this help me in the long run, or am I just looking for an immediate gratification here?"

The idea of confronting OW has occurred to me SEVERAL times. I also have a wide open opportunity to talk to her ex-husband (she was still married to him for 3 mos of the A w/ my WH), but I'm not really sure what any of that will really accomplish.

At the very least, it will be a can of worms that will be questions. But most likely it will be a can of worms that are far more toxic. Pick up and move on. With or without him. You must put yourself FIRST, along with any children you have.

Please stand firm. Keep your head clear and don't look back. That's what I have to keep telling myself too!

dragonflygal

You know, I feel so full of questions and I don't ever seem to come up with any answers. It's a very dreary, poopy day and it's seemed to put me in a mood. But, I suppose if I was honest, I'm in a mood most days anyway.

Here's my question to those of you who have come out the other end of this ridiculous life. During the time in which you were attempting to rebuild or trust again, did you question WHY you married your spouse in the first place? I have always loved H dearly. I have spent 20 years wrapping my entire being into his existence and seeing to it that he's happy and our kids are happy. So now, I left standing along wondering what I did for all these years. This man is generally a kind man. But, he's kept me (at my own doing) from being who I may have been otherwise. I'm much more social than he is and I've had to pull back my own reigns in order to accomodate our personality differences. And, he's had to step up his game in order to be a little more like me so that we could meet somewhere in the middle.

Really, I think we're closer to his side of the middle than we are to mine. But, this was MY choice. But, I'm afraid I regret that now. And, I think I never would if he had not gotten involved with the dumpy one. Now, I'm looking at the missing links from my perspective and they seem magnified. Should we have been married all these years? Would a more socially inclined man have been a better fit? Would a man who was more of a talker and more loving had been a better fit? Who knows? I don't think so but now that he's introduced doubt into my life I'm questioning this. I would have had occassional thoughts creep in before but never this nagging sensation that I am not getting what I deserve.

I suppose this is what happened to him that enabled him to be vulnerable to another woman's advances. It's fueled by ego but must also be fueled by a deep need that I cannot fill. So, do we cash in our chips and let each other go find what we're missing? Or, is this normal for me to be re-evaluating the situation now? I suppose I just need to know what's normal. No crisis, just curiosity.

Nope. That's why I CHOSE to work on my marriage. I had to almost LOSE him to realize how much I LOVE HIM. I've LEARNED to ACCEPT my H for who he is...he has the SAME WAYS..the SAME FAULTS..NOW, I ACCEPT... NOT try to make him into the person that I want him to be...taking the BITTER with the SWEET..that's MY STORY..

Mimi,
Deep down inside I KNOW the man I love is totally WORTH all of this crap. He's always been my best friend. Somehow I need the tools to figure out how to get past the betrayal. My parents are and were both amazing grudge holders. It's very scary to me that I could share that genetic trait. I will break that chain for sure. I CANNOT be the bitter and betrayed woman that my mother became when my father left her.

I will go again tomorrow morning to the counselor. I do like her alot and hope she gives me some tools to sort this through. H is going to his own counseling tonight and we go as a couple again on Sunday. We will see.

Fiori,
Just saying Hi, I am rooting for you, I'm sure the counseling will help...I am working on the forgiveness part myself. I had an amazing sermon Sunday, it dealt with me about that. It's amazing how much hardship can cause us to grow and learn about ourselves!
Good luck to you,
(K)

I questioned that in the darkest times...when the A was going on and I felt helpless to stop it. Now, not at all.

I think it's normal to question whether or not you made the right choice is who you married...but at the same time, you can go through "what if" ad infinitum. What if you had never married at all? What if you had married someone else? What if H hadn't met OW? What if you had met someone else? What if you both had done things differently? What if you had known earlier in your M how to meet each other's needs?

I think that what is important to think about now is not whether or not you made the right decision then, but what decision you want to make now. You say that you know that your H is worth going through this crap. Ok. You also say that you feel like he has kept you from becoming the person you could have been and you resent him for it. Is there a way that you could talk with him about the things that you want out of life for yourself and pursue them at the same time that you restore your M?

One of the things that my H told me was that often I felt like the problem was insurmountable and that he would never or could never be able to help, when in fact, I was assuming the worst and not giving him a chance to prove me wrong. I had to really work hard at not assuming how he would feel or react. I had to learn to talk with him about the things that I really want because he didn't really know. I had already condemned him by assuming that my needs/wants wouldn't be met.

I too am trying to let go of the grudge. I am struggling with forgiveness...not for my H, but for the OW. Somehow I feel a need from within to find peace with her. I won't tell her that I have forgiven her when I do, but I will know it for myself. I have been reading a lot of things about forgiveness and thinking/praying about it. What I keep hearing is that letting go of the anger and resentment is not about the other person (the H or the OW), but about me. It is about cutting out the dead tissue so that the wound can heal. I WANT this wound to heal. I am willing to learn how to forgive those who hurt me so that I can. It is a selfish pursuit. And I haven't figured out how to do it yet. But it is my goal and I am working on it actively.

Sorry...I'm rambling. I just need to chat with you more often.

Your Friend,
MS