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Good morning, Fiori... How are you doing today?
It sounds like Mimi has been exactly where you are...waiting an extremely long time for NC without being able to really consider moving to Plan B. So I was thinking, why not open up more of a dialogue with her?
Maybe she can help walk you through your fears and help you prepare a Plan B JUST IN CASE you get to a place where you mentally need to make a change, so that you will have a plan in place rather than doing something rash...
Learning and processing how a Plan B would work for you doesn't mean you have to do anything today!
I just wanted you to know I recently read that when a person is emotially distraught, it can make one indecisive. That's where, I believe, the wisdom and experience of the folks on this board can really help you keep your thoughts straight. Hang in there and don't stop posting, OK?
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today was bad...today was really bad. i can't even explain what goes on in my head. H says I'm dwelling on the negative and that if we are to prevail I have to give him a chance. Please....don't say anything. My eyes are open. i'm hurt but i'm not dead. no promises. it's very dark right here.
Me 44, H 42, DS 16, DS 13 H/EA 4/07, D Day 10/17/07.. 500th d-day 10/14/08... NO RAIN...NO RAINBOWS!
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Mogi, It's 6:45 my time. I think you just tried to call. I'm ok. I'm trying to NOT talk so I can NOT cry. But, I'm ok. Time to feed kids dinner and be ok.
Me 44, H 42, DS 16, DS 13 H/EA 4/07, D Day 10/17/07.. 500th d-day 10/14/08... NO RAIN...NO RAINBOWS!
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Fiori, How are you doing? I hope you are getting some support by phone or other e-mail today. Would your H be willing to come here and post to us? I just don't know if he ever fully understood the seriousness of his actions and the effect they are having on his marriage. Thinking of you,
Lake BW-53 FWH-54 H had EA 3 weeks 06 Married 1977
N C 4-10-06 3 DSs In Recovery
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Don't worry...I was going to write earlier today but our cable was down which impacted the internet. But, it was a little better than yesterday. Actually, it was alot better.
I agree with you. He REALLY does not get that his actions or lack or actions have had such a ripple effect. He really believes that if he's NOT romantically interested then it's ok to simply ignore the situation and act like there's no longer a problem. I call him "duck & cover H".
But, today was for me. I went to a counselor. It was good to be validated on some of my concerns as to how I'm reacting to certain situations. She said it's totally normal for me to be as obsessed with what he is doing as I am. H sometimes treats it like "ok, we'll deal with it today...but tomorrow you need to be over it". But, other days he's totally compassinate. IT's like he's two different people.
But, enough about him. Today was for me. I cried again in church. I think the people who see me there must think I'm dying. I get alot of relative strangers who just walk by me and put their hand on my shoulder. It's very helpful but it makes me cry harder when I realize how supportive strangers are and how cold my H seems at times. Very strange mix of emotions.
So, Sunday we will both go to the same counselor I went to today. She will work with us together and on our own. She likened our marriage to a train wreck that needed help getting back on track. Really, I feel a bit better --- I'M NORMAL!!!
I'll update more tommorrow. I'm tired and beaten but I'm not dead.
Me 44, H 42, DS 16, DS 13 H/EA 4/07, D Day 10/17/07.. 500th d-day 10/14/08... NO RAIN...NO RAINBOWS!
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Lake, I asked H about the potential of him speaking with you on this forum. He said he'd be very ok with speaking with you, but not on a public forum. He's very afraid that someone is going to figure out who he is and put together the puzzle pieces. I think that's a bit naive on his part, but I know I won't be able to change that. I've often wished he come here and get some much needed constructive criticism, but that's most likely NOT going to occur. Thanks for reaching out.
Me 44, H 42, DS 16, DS 13 H/EA 4/07, D Day 10/17/07.. 500th d-day 10/14/08... NO RAIN...NO RAINBOWS!
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So glad to hear that you are taking some steps for YOUR sanity. It is important and easy to forget to do when you are so mired in the challenges of your M.
I know that when things were the worst for me, I didn't really even WANT to help myself...and that just made it worse. Someone told me here that whiny and needy are unattractive. At the moment, I wanted to smack them and tell them that I have a right to feel that way. But in retrospect, it didn't really help me much. Just like I tell my boys when they're unhappy, "It's ok to cry, but in the end, it won't get you anything but a runny nose and a headache."
I'm glad to hear that your H feels like he's turned a corner. And I agree, you have every right not to trust him. I would call you crazy if you did. But at the same time, you can be cautiously optimistic and while you continue to work on you and check up on him, you can watch his actions and see if what he says and what he does match.
BTW...YOU were there for me at my lowest. I am there for you now. ANYTIME YOU NEED ME.
MS
BW (me) FWH (him - he's earning the F) 3 boys (4, 5, and 7) M 1997 LT EA/PA 2004-2007 D-Day #1 Feb 2006 Joined MB. D-Day #2 Feb 2008 D-Day #3 Aug 2008 Began REAL recovery Sept 2008.
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Hello Fiori,
On the recommendation of Sugar Cane, I read your thread today and I wanted to say that I think we have a lot in common. I read it quite quickly as I didn't have that much time and it was quite long but this is my reaction.
I think it's highly likely that he is having a PA with this woman. Their behaviour is very strong for an EA only. I read somewhere in one of the Harleys article that an EA and PA combined makes for a very potent and addictive mix. I hope I am wrong but I would definitely open your mind to that possibility.
I too am a stay-at-home mom and have been married (well including some years living together) for 20 years to a wonderful, kind, good man who gave me a marriage I felt lucky to be in. (this sounds like your H too) Yet he has been lying to me for the last year and has behaved awfully, saying and doing very hurtful things that I would never have imagined him capable of before. I am sure he would have denied a PA if he could have gotten away with it but he couldn't because I had hard evidence. My WH also is not a good communicator and until recently I thought he was not a good liar at all. He avoids discussion about emotions, especially negative ones and I am his only friend. I suspect your H has no friends in whom he confides either. My WH is very sociable and has lots of pals who he plays tennis with or who he talks superficially to but, until the arrival of OW, there was only me in whom he confided his innermost thoughts and feelings.
Just as you describe it's as if there are two different men, a Dr Jeckyll and Mr Hyde difference. I want so badly to believe in the 'good' version that I have been been living in the kind of mental agony you describe. Your thread was a bit of a revelation to me because it's so much easier to see things clearly from the outside for people who have nothing at stake. But in our own lives everything we have ever treasured is in danger and it's frightening. It is easy to blame the OW for everything because she is the 'outside enemy' (and I'm not excusing her) but the 'inside enemy' is the one we can't face up to because it feels so alien and unbelievable. However I believe that your inner he// is caused by a discrepancy between what your head is telling you and what your heart wants so badly to believe. Try to think of your H as an addict who lies, cheats, steals, hurts people all the while justifying his actions but that doesn't mean that he is a fundamentally bad person. He is bad at the moment but because he is in the throes of his addiction. For his sake, as well as your own and the children's you need to do what it takes to drag him out of this situation and back to reason.
FWIW, I think he is lying about the marks on his diary and even about the email you discovered. I think he is so sure of your love for him that he thinks he can do anything and he will not jeopardise it. It's not that your love is not precious to him, I think it is very much so, more that he even realises, but that it feels like an unshakeable certainty that will always be there for him no matter what he does. I am also very uneasy about his nasty comments (eg about your dad) and they sound very familiar to me in that I got similar comments from my WH over the past year. They are destructive to your self-confidence but you need to ignore them for the rubbish they are and realise that the words of an addict don't mean much. I hope I'm wrong, Fiori, and I would be thrilled if I am but I think it would be a good idea if you could, with as cool a head as you can, examine the idea that a full-blown A is going on.
My deepest best wishes are with you,
Tully
Courage is the most important of all the virtues, because without courage you can't practice any other virtue consistently. You can practice any virtue erratically, but nothing consistently without courage. Maya Angelou
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Tully, No offense, but I really never wanted to speak to you. I've read a few pages of your postings and it's a freaky scary similarity.
I have NO idea what has gone on with my husband. All I can say is that I have NO idea who he is any more. I MUST get him out of that job and away from his daily fix. I may start surprising him at the office to shake things up a bit and put them off gaurd. I really wish I knew what to do. I want soooooo badly to remove her from our lives. I can't talk about this right now as I feel the sadness overcoming me once again. I feel for you and I do wish you a happy outcome. I'm sorry...it's just so hard because I identify with you too closely. Maybe tomorrow or another day I'll be able to chat with you. What state are you in? (if that's not private) I feel like we are married to the same man.
Me 44, H 42, DS 16, DS 13 H/EA 4/07, D Day 10/17/07.. 500th d-day 10/14/08... NO RAIN...NO RAINBOWS!
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Sorry, fiori, I didn't mean to upset you. I'll disappear and not interfere any more. I wish you all the best of luck and happier days with your whole family in the near future.
Courage is the most important of all the virtues, because without courage you can't practice any other virtue consistently. You can practice any virtue erratically, but nothing consistently without courage. Maya Angelou
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I FEEL SOOOOOO STUPID ![frown frown](/ubbt/images/graemlins/default/frown.gif) I didn't make you feel stupid, I'm sorry. Just reading about his behavior ticked me off so bad - I hate to see women so mistreated, that's why I was like - what the heck is it about this guy? He's a jerk!
Me(bw/fww) 39 recovering with amazing fwh/bh 36 DS 7 DS 4
His EA Oct '07 - 7/2/08 (d-day) NC 7/4/08
Hers EA/RA 6/'09-3/'10 NC 3/17/10
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Hi fiore, I do understand your H's concern about confidentiality on this public forum. I worry about it for myself. Look at what happened to a fellow poster that is a friend of yours. I have thought a lot about your situation because it involves an EA. I think I responded to my H's EA in a similar way that you responded to your H's EA. There are some differences in that my H's EA was very secret and short term--a month. Your H's EA lasted for months and you and he were apparently able to delude yourselves that it was not an EA--even though you did not like what was going on--for months.
Another difference is that your H works in the same Corp. as the OW and is having a hard time leaving that environment.
My H has worked at the same Corp. for about 25 years. He does not feel able to move to a different situation that would give him the salary that he has at his job. I really don't know how we would have handled an EA at his work site.
It seems that my H's EA was triggered more by his sense of "lost youth" and an old High School girlfriend was the necessary component for him to test out if he still "had it". I do keep track of the women in his work environment now and warn him about women that I think he should be careful about--one in particular has come up so far since the EA.
I think that the two of you are in a cycle of problems:
1. He still works at the same corp. as OW. This fact triggers you daily. H@ll, I was triggered daily from other triggers not related to the work environment for months after the EA was ended.
2. He thinks that he can "manage" the situation and still work in the same work environment.
3. You cannot stop love busting because your triggers create such panic that you cannot stop yourself.
4. He is not being open and honest with you specifically in relationship to contact because of your anger when you panic. He thinks he needs to manage the situation and this leads to his dishonest behavior. Examples of this are: The e-mail you found from the OW in his briefcase, the fact that she had moved back into his building, the visit to OW's apartment in the middle of the night to prevent "suicide."
5. As I look at all of this, I can't tell if there is more contact between the two of them or not. But I suspect that there IS more contact. I am just a sideline viewer. I can only imagine how you feel. It is only normal that you suspect TONS more contact.
6. Has there been more e-mail one sided business contact that he thought he was managing? Was he using intermediaries to manage his e-mail from her related to business issues and then responding to the issues as needed? If so, this was "contact" and was deceitful to you and makes it impossible for YOUR recovery. I suspect something like this was going on.
7. So you continue to panic and continue to love bust because you have NO TRUST. You are acting rationally. But it puts your marriage at great risk. And she is always there in the wings--her act is not real, it is not time tested. It is a fantasy, but there it is. And he responded by thinking he was the knight in shining armour and tried to save her in the middle of the night.
8. How can he get back the woman he married when he is putting you in a position to be an angry woman in a constant state of panic?
9. How can you trust when you were just on a lawn snapping pictures?
Does he yet see what he has created?
Lake BW-53 FWH-54 H had EA 3 weeks 06 Married 1977
N C 4-10-06 3 DSs In Recovery
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Oh Tully, I'm not mad at you...I'm mad at me. I'm sooo sorry. I really did not want to upset you as I'm sure there is enough of that in your life already. Please, accept my apology. I do welcome your input and maybe would even be able to talk with you in person if that ever were the case. But, it's so hard.
We are one in the same. That is sad. A club I never wanted to join. We'll both be ok. I'm sure of that!
Me 44, H 42, DS 16, DS 13 H/EA 4/07, D Day 10/17/07.. 500th d-day 10/14/08... NO RAIN...NO RAINBOWS!
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Silly you! You did not make me feel stupid-- I make me feel stupid. I used to be this intelligent stong person who has turned into a marshmallow. YUCK!!!! It's not very appealing for me to look at myself...imagine how gross I look to H.
Me 44, H 42, DS 16, DS 13 H/EA 4/07, D Day 10/17/07.. 500th d-day 10/14/08... NO RAIN...NO RAINBOWS!
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Lake, I love the 'sound' you give of when you write. It's as good as the wisdom that comes across when 'schoolbus' writes.
As for a lot of your posting. You have hit alot head on. H has also worked for this same corp for 21 years. He's worked his way up from entry level to VP and has done a stellar job. This particular person stepped into our lives just as our children were reaching teen years, H turned 42 and I 44. He is stuck at a crossroad. Biology has decided for me that I will not have any more children. I would have love more but this was not to be the case. H can create life right up til his last breath. Enter the young chippy who's offering her over-ripe eggs like dessert. She's very persistant and unforgiving. He was ripe for the picking and I just did not see the signs until it was too late. I never knew he found me to be unapproachable. I never knew he was bored...or whatever he was to do this.
Our country puts such an emphasis on work and success. He's totally bought into the fact that as long as he's providing a good home and $$ then he's a good husband and dad. Ok, so what about time? When do you offer that? I've been displeased with his attitude towards work for many years. He seems to feel I should be able to seperate the two, now. But, it is all tainted now. OW could easily do the right thing and vacate her position. She, at her level of employment, is expendable. Her position comes a dime a dozen and his does not. We are talking upper management in the financial industry while our country's financing are tanking!
Tonight I explained to him that it was inexcuseable to expect me to live like this any longer. Right now he is in the other room mulling over a plan. I want a plan...something concrete that he has to follow to a 't'.
I was given a book yesterday by a neighbor of mine called "Maybe God Was Right After All". I've only read 1/4 of it but the messege is clear -- God gives you the knowledge of being able to discern right from wrong. We, as humans, will often test the limits and choose wrong, even if that nagging sensation in the back of our mind says we should choose right. The hindsight is what gets us all the time. We look at the debris feild left by choosing wrong and stand there scratching our heads saying 'maybe God was right after all". It's a powerful messege.
I'd like to anonymously have one shipped to OW. She professes to be this amazing Catholic. What do you think of that? I know it breaks NC, but let's face it...that's not an issue here -- yet.
Me 44, H 42, DS 16, DS 13 H/EA 4/07, D Day 10/17/07.. 500th d-day 10/14/08... NO RAIN...NO RAINBOWS!
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Our country puts such an emphasis on work and success. He's totally bought into the fact that as long as he's providing a good home and $$ then he's a good husband and dad. Ok, so what about time? When do you offer that? I've been displeased with his attitude towards work for many years. He seems to feel I should be able to seperate the two, now. But, it is all tainted now. OW could easily do the right thing and vacate her position. She, at her level of employment, is expendable. Her position comes a dime a dozen and his does not. We are talking upper management in the financial industry while our country's financing are tanking!
Tonight I explained to him that it was inexcuseable to expect me to live like this any longer. Right now he is in the other room mulling over a plan. I want a plan...something concrete that he has to follow to a 't'. Hi Fiori, You sound better than last week. How's your hand? My H is like yours were work is concerned. I can't even enjoy H's professional success anymore as it's tainted by his A partner being a co-worker. Unlike yours, my H and OW no longer work for the same company. Praise the Lord! Friends at H's work who know about the affair have been great to me but it doesn't feel the same anymore when we go out socially. H has talked about quitting for a variety of reasons but the job is only on aspect of it all. H's A ruined so many things for us. An amazing Catholic who goes after married men and is into suicide drama... :RollieEyes: You could send it with an inscription that you hope she doesn't burn in he// but from the looks of it...;)
BW - me exWH - serial cheater 2 awesome kids Divorced 12/2011
Many a good man has failed because he had a wishbone where his backbone should have been.
We gain strength, and courage, and confidence by each experience in which we really stop to look fear in the face... we must do that which we think we cannot. --------Eleanor Roosevelt
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BR, I can't tell you how I'm doing 'this week' as I'm only able to take things hour by hour. Perhaps I'll upgrade to day by day soon enough.
Last night H and I had a long talk which did NOT end up in an argument. I told him the other day that he needed to present me with a plan. He had alot of very interesting ideas...but they are worthless without his actually putting them into practice. I have no real idea as to whether or not he's gotten his eyes opened yet. He did talk with a neighbor of mine who attempted to get him to see how foolish his choices are. He did indicate to her that the boys and I were and will always be his first priority. I, understandable, cannot believe him in this statement.
AS for my hand, it's fine. I must be stronger than I thought. When I see his car it's a constant reminder of the horrible night. His car is due for inspection next week so he'll have to get that fixed. He'll most likely grumble about the cost but I really could care less. He also may grumble about counseling costs....he better not!!!
So, before I go run my Halloween based errands....How are you doing?
Me 44, H 42, DS 16, DS 13 H/EA 4/07, D Day 10/17/07.. 500th d-day 10/14/08... NO RAIN...NO RAINBOWS!
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I'm doing okay. The weather is gloomy and it makes me feel a little depressed. Trying to stay busy and make some plans for Christmas vacation. Glad to hear your hand is alright. What were H's ideas...dare I ask? ![blush blush](/ubbt/images/graemlins/default/blush.gif)
BW - me exWH - serial cheater 2 awesome kids Divorced 12/2011
Many a good man has failed because he had a wishbone where his backbone should have been.
We gain strength, and courage, and confidence by each experience in which we really stop to look fear in the face... we must do that which we think we cannot. --------Eleanor Roosevelt
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dear fiori- ![hug hug](/ubbt/images/graemlins/default/hug.gif) i have been reading your posts and something really jumps out at me that i can soooo relate to- YOU ARE BEATING YOURSELF UP WAY TOO MUCH!!!!! Please - love yourself first. if you do this- then you will start to change.... then your H will notice a non-neediness in you and feel attracted to you and actually CHASE YOU. i WAS you. My FWH cheated on me for 12 years with 12 different women- its way too long a story - but i had many clues during those years that i chose to ignore. WHY????????????????? i was afraid of life without him and if i knew for sure of his affairs- i knew i would have to give him an ultimatum. i knew that i might not be his choice. so- i merely existed in a fog- gave up my best years and threw myself into my children and my friends. many times during this last 15 months since d-day , when he confessed- i have beaten myself up just like you. WHY WASNT I STRONGER???? WHY WASNT I SMARTER???? WHY DID I BELIEVE ALL HIS LOUSY/STUPID EXCUSES????? WHY?? WHY????????? anyway- it wasnt until i started to learn to love myself that my marriage and i changed. it is so hard when a person is a giver. thats what i was too. my therapist called me a "st. bernard"- wantint to save everyone. it was unhealthy for me and for you too. go to the book store and buy some books about self improvement. Try Louise Hay - You Can Heal YOur Life. then start to make yourself happy. you will be amazed at your husband's reaction when you dont NEED to talk to him. i know this may seem surreal now-- as you seem to still be in the shock and anger phase. i was there for 9 months and it got me nothing but heartache and sickness. if you can make yours shorter- life will get better. i hope this gives you some comfort. remember- YOU ARE DOING THE BEST YOU CAN WITH YOUR LIMITIED ABILITIES AT THE TIME. and - would you really be as hard on anyone else as you are on yourself??? You are reacting naturally. you can change and grow from this, with love and support, SF
BS- me 56; FWH-58 3 kids, DS 23,23 DD 14; Married: 34 years D-Days: 7/11/07;/7/13/07;7/31/07 Unbelievably recovering- but in an up and down way.
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Fiori, Your story sounds sooooooooo much like mine. Except that my WH's A is still going on with the "POC" OW (I prefer Greasy Little Booze Hag). I only found out 3 months ago and my bullheaded POC H is still living at home -- refuses to leave. I can't separate from him yet, because I was just laid off my job. The way I see it, the VERY LEAST that he owes me is to support me financially and I WILL take advantage of that, thank you very much! Yes, life is hell. BUT....I am finally learning to trust my own instincts. (Prayer has a LOT to do with it. It helps. God knows how to handle things better than we do and if we just put trust in him, he won't fail us. Try it.)
I've learned to ask myself before doing or saying anything: "does this help me in the long run, or am I just looking for an immediate gratification here?"
The idea of confronting OW has occurred to me SEVERAL times. I also have a wide open opportunity to talk to her ex-husband (she was still married to him for 3 mos of the A w/ my WH), but I'm not really sure what any of that will really accomplish.
At the very least, it will be a can of worms that will be questions. But most likely it will be a can of worms that are far more toxic. Pick up and move on. With or without him. You must put yourself FIRST, along with any children you have.
Please stand firm. Keep your head clear and don't look back. That's what I have to keep telling myself too!
dragonflygal
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