Jayne and EO

Your postings were very helpful and it was 'reassuring' to hear from a female point of view too. I see both sides too.

EO, you are so right about doing things for myself. I started doing this around 3 years ago and he was 'put out' that I wasn't doing things with him. Then I would just wait and wait for him to find the time to do it for me. I learned then that you have to try and meet your own needs yourself. I got a bit screwed up along the way - with the affair, but now 2 years later, I know that I have to check myself that it's not independent behavior.

bcboy talked to me a few posts back, if I remember rightly, about not neglecting your relationship with God and how he had perhaps done this(?). I immediately feel 'judged' by God (for whatever skewed reasons and experiences I have for that). I have over the years just let God go and am very hesitant.

You know EO what you said .......


This really STOOD OUT to me. I have felt this last week that I needed to connect again with that deep place inside of me. That spiritual place but I didn't want it to seem like 'cloud cuckoo land', if you get what I mean. I can start with this simple option. It is easier for me to 'see' the Universe, God, Spiritual Higher Power just like talking to a friend - I think I can begin to embrace this.

bc, your post made me laugh. Thank you for that. Then I read and took note. As I said to JL you guys really did put the meat on the bones for me.

I'm lucky that my H listens to me and is willing to work on the marriage too. He said he would like a list and I will get round to writing one. I promise there will be no unreasonable demands on it.

Please DO NOT worry about posting/hijacking the thread. It's important to share how you are feeling.

Briefly bc, when I was in my A and post the A too, I was so withdrawn from my H that it was impossible for him to connect with me. I couldn't and didn't truly hear what he was saying to me. There was no connecting with me. Even when he would ask me reasonably, I would sound like reasonable person, words would come out of my mouth but my heart wasn't in it. Even when the A was over I couldn't really hear him for a while. It was after much time, pain, forgiveness and softening had passed, the lights were beginning to be switched on. I started to reconnect with my feelings, good bad and ugly. Acknowledging that's who I was but that it would take time to change. Just time. No pretending just acknowledging and connecting with the positives in me as well rather than just the vile stuff. On bad days, of which there were many, my best friend would help me with adding "buts..." to the end of my negative dialogue about myself.

I also wanted to be back in the relationship but didn't know how until I came here. YOU GUYS helped give me the keys to connect with myself and my H.

That's all I know. Maybe that's what's happening with your W too. You can talk and do till you're blue in the face. You still may not reach her yet.

My simple take and I am sure JL and others have wisdom to impart.

It seems similar to my complaint. After 23 years of knowing my H, I have to write him a list - 23 years later! and just when you think you've got it sorted out, we'll change it!

She says you are emotionally distant (which probably triggers her rejection issues, by the way). I can only go with what my H did. He carried on loving me anyway and tried to help. God only knows why he didn't give up to this day. I am here today because he never gave up on me in the face of the worst s**t I threw his way.

I have had rejection issues. Bottom line, I can only truly help me. My H, like you, so wanted to take the pain and confusion away. However, I and only I could deal with those childhood issues with the help of a therapist. You can't take it away for her bc. You can ask her what you can do and be willing to help, but in the end, she has to work on that stuff herself.

That's my own experience.

You are a good guy bc. We all mess up. However, you are open and now working on yourself and your marriage.

SD

I watch him when he's not looking at me. He still has love in his blue eyes when he looks at me. Lines around the face and hair greying. When he's not with me, I look at my children and see him. I love my family.

A few short months ago, I was at a loss. I was at the end. I was full of fear, confusion, self pity and shame. I knew I could not live another day in my marriage the way it was. I wanted to love my husband and myself but didn't know how. I had so screwed things up. A last resort. So, no-one has to tell me twice now. I am so sad it's taken this long. However, I've been given another chance. I have to get on with it and run with it. I am a woman on a mission. you bet I will.

Not sure what the get a grip comment means...... but I tell you what, I have found wise, patient and helpful people here who offer precious advice to me. I WILL ask every seemingly silly or ridiculous question because I need help. I am not going to waste another moment.

Nowisthemoment
This is a wonderful thing to hear you say. I hope you can permanently attach this to your thought processes. You need to think of this often and give thanks. By loving you are avoiding so much pain. Lonliness is a terrible thing. It is the culmination of feeling rejected. Think of how you would feel if you were not with your family right now. I mean really think about it. We often take things for granted (like our family). As much as they sometimes drive us nuts, they are the antidote to lonliness. So when that stinky thinking starts, think about how lucky you are to have been given the lonliness cure. You have your family. You have been given a gift.

I often think about what JL said about watch how an older married couple acts. They have developed thier own language, combined with, words, looks, gestures, that they know what the other means. What a wonderful picture of intimacy. You have been given that opportunity.


There is another antidote available to you if you want it. I am a believer in Jesus Christ. And through Him, and what He did on the cross (He paid the ultimate sacrifice for us) in His love we can be free from fear. God does not want us to be confused, He is not the author of confusion. And shame is released through His forgiveness. It has been suggested to you to have a coversation with God. I would encourage you to do this. That is a form of prayer and is a wonderful communication. God deals with us in our weakness. We often do not lean on Him until we reach the end of our rope. When we are broken often we are ready to hear Him. And be assured of one thing HE LOVES YOU

I believe in prayer. I believe God answers prayer. I believe He wants us to experience His peace and His joy. And Nowisthemoment I believe He is working in your life. It isn't about just going to church (though that help for teaching and encouragement) it is about your relationship with God, and that starts with talking to Him.

Nowis you have blessed me by sharing your story.

May God Bless you and your family

BCBOY

Beautiful.

I am viewing things from a different perspective, through the eyes and experiences of others posting on your thread.

The Grip comment: Was regarding your need for MORE attention...so I am wondering...do you work outside the home? My take is, you don't.

Your H's attention IS on you. He provides for your family and has always been there for you. Appreciate the beauty of that. Grandiose lalala....expressions of love...are pretty meaningless. It's the little things that count. {they're not little by the way]

JL posted that a couple pages back.

If it's ok to continue the T/J a little longer...

Maybe concentrate on the complaint of emotional distance. Some ways to demonstrate an emotional connection come to mind: when she talks, sit and *listen*, don't start planning your response in your head, just think about what she is saying, even to the end of the sentence. Sit there patiently. Reach out and gently *touch* her - hold her hand or something, not in a manner that is assuming control but in a manner that is supportive. This is exactly the thing that schoolbus is so good at. Maybe go through some of her old posts to see suggestions to men on body language when talking to women.

Make good listening "noises". Sounds like, "mm-hmm" and "yeah?" and "really?" and "hmm!" and "uh-huh" and stuff. Do this while looking her in the eye - not glancing at the tv, or reading, or working.

Do you spend an hour or two a day with her in UA? Emphasis on Undivided, and on Attention. Sit and listen to her day. When you or she enters a room that the other is in, look up and greet her. Take opportunities to touch and hug. Think of little things you can do when you're apart, like at work, send her a message or leave her a note or give her a call or bring home a little something to show you were thinking of her.

Just some ideas. Take what you want and leave the rest.

Thanks for trying to help Jayne
Just to bring you up to speed.
1)My wife has pursed a legal separation
2) Says she cannot do the relationship any longer and needs time to heal
3) Is having at least an emotional affair with a divorced neighbour - he calls her everyday
4) I have moved out of the house as we are now separated
5) She says she needs happiness in her life and has lived with the pain for too long
6) Realizes the family is not happy with her decision and she is willing to walk away from the kids as she feel rejected
7) Feels God is in this
8) She Is seeing a councellor
9) Her friends are either divorced, or in an unhappy marriage.

I am having to make a decision about whether or not to move on. I do not want to be separated but right now I do not see too much hope for the marriage as she is pursuing her own thing.

I am wondering if I should be going to plan B shortly.

I am greatful to God for carrying me through this. I certainly have great empathy for anyone who has to go through these gut wrenching emotional situations.

That is why I am so happy for Nowis as she has turned her relationship around. I wish I could to the same but my wife is getting increasinly distant.

Oh, ok... I'm so sorry, I didn't realize. I'd read some of your posts early on, but I wasn't aware of all that was going on or that y'all were separated.

Yes, after awhile, Plan B is called for. But there are some success stories even after a good PB. Either a recovered M or a better situation anyway.

Thanks for not being offended at my attempt to help.

BCB,

I like Jayne's suggestion to talk with her, touch her, etc. I would also suggest that you actually pay attention to women when they talk with one another. You will see HUGE differences between how they talk and communicate and how us guys do it.

I will also say that since your W is having an affair, you don't have a snowball's chance in (a very hot spot) to make the connections she wants. You must end the affair, and that requires exposure, it requires a plan A and then plan B.

But, as you wait this out, listen to how women phrase things, where they put the emphasis in a situation and you will learn some surprising things. As for getting in touch with your feelings, I think contemplation and prayer are a good place to start. We all get so busy we forget out dreams, our fears, and what really counts. Figure that out first. You can admit you are hurt, you can admit you don't understand something, but ONE THING I HAVE LEARNED HERE THAT IS MOST IMPORTANT:

most men when confronted with a W's problem will try and solve it, and get very frustrated when she is not ready to jump in and solve it. We would solve it, why won't she??? It seems from what I have learned here that women view our "jumping in and trying to solve the problem" as NOT being in contact with our feelings. They often don't want the problem solved, they want to discuss it, its ramifications, how it makes them feel, how YOU would feel if it happened to you (You do recall that is a line from an old song "It's my party..." by Leslie Gore.).

In short it seems to me women want to mentally and emotionally chew on a problem before they get around to addressing it. When we don't want to do this, it seems "insensitive to them" it seems that "we don't connect with them". We just want to conjure up a solution, decide its merits, and "get 'er done."


Jayne,

Just a thought on how you preceive us guys after we quit focusing on getting our W. Actually, the focus never leaves, but we do have a check list:

1. Get a wife.

2. Support W financially.

3. Have kids and support them financially.

4. Save money for kids education and to take care of W.

5. When kids are through school, start planning for retirement.

6. Here is the one most women don't seem to realize. The odds are high us guys will die before our W's, so the pressure is on to make enough to support her long after we are gone.

7. Here is an item sprinkled throughout the list: we need a few toys. All work and no toys makes Jack a dull boy.

So it isn't that we lose focus it is now that we have something else to accomplish to support our focus on W and family and we go after it as hard as possible, because...it is important that we take care of our families.

I know, OLD SCHOOL, but nevertheless there it is. You cannot imagine my destain and lack of respect for any man that cannot support his family and children, financially. They don't have to be rich, but HE should be whatever it takes to support that family.

I hope something I have said is of help.

God Bless,

JL

JL...that makes me cry^^.

Cuz...it's true. My H already talks about it...I can't stand it.

Can I ask you to write a similar list for me?
What shows/ expresses to your mate that you Love him, in a language he can understand? [besides sex..lol]

I came to the conclusion long ago, that men and women want the same things, but ask for it in different ways. *but what do I know?*

Thank you in advance...and also for the amazing insights you have provided me on this thread.

Bcboy5440, I am so sorry for what you are going through.
Women...and I am one...I will never understand them.

You know...I decided long time ago, that if the one I loved was miserable to be with me...then GO. With my blessings. Cut them off completely.


...and every one of them came back at one point. Only one of which I took back. My H.

the situation with my H was more complicated, abuse, time zones and continents in between and what have you...
Never did stop loving him...just couldn't be with him the way things were at that time.

We weren't listening to each other...sometimes...still don't. I'm learning...and every day, something new.
Thank you for sharing....you touch many with your wisdom.

SD

I'm glad you are getting something from this thread.

Thanks for the clarification on the GRIP comment. Yes, I do work outside the home. Mornings only and some weekends. I enjoy it and life is full and too busy sometimes.

I take on board what you have shared, thanks again.

Hi bcboy

I don't doubt that you draw a lot of strength from your faith in God.

I am long detached from my 'committed christian' days. We haven't been regular church attendees for almost 16 years now. One thing I did learn when I left the church, was that God was not like a lot of people in the church! He was much nicer. I found God in lots of other ways, in lots of other good people (non-christians) and experiences around me.

I still have an aversion to christianity but am 'open' to God, if you understand. I have come to the conclusion, over the years, that "God helps those who helps themselves".

You can imagine, I'm now asking myself why, of all times, is the subject of my faith coming up?

What you have shared has been thought provoking particularly in the midst of your own pain. Thanks again.

JL, thanks for writing that list!

I thought of including kids in my list, but decided to leave kids out to be applicable to folks without kids. Something interesting: my items re. kids would've been things like, have kids; get them weaned and potty trained; get them into a good school; get them through high school and into a good college; etc. I never thought about money... except where it might pertain to tuition.

I appreciate old school. Like I said in another post, I like John Wayne.

I admire and appreciate men who feel the responsibility you describe. I guess I hadn't quite realized that point #6 might be an underlying concern for guys.

I hope you don't think I was insulting. I think maybe my H isn't quite so concerned with being the provider, maybe that's why my list was as it was. I think he is very motivated in his career and would choose to pursue his dream job whether or not it paid the bills. Lucky for me, it is about to start paying the bills.

I can totally support myself and my kids, in fact I have been supporting our U.S. household and expenses for 9 months of the year. I have never expected a guy to support me, and I didn't have kids until I felt secure in being able to support them myself. But I am really looking forward to H's income being more than mine and paying most of the bills, with mine being gravy. It isn't about the money; it's about the feeling of security, of being cared for; of having someone who will step up and provide, and take responsibility, like you describe.

This is a T/J of a T/J, and it's late to boot. I'm prolly making no sense. Sorry.

I fully understand what you are saying Nowis. I saw a a bumpersticker the other day that said "The more people I get to know the more I like my dog" As people we tend to muck things up. I understand it is personal and I will not preach. I have come to believe that if I can get my relationship right with my creator then a lot of other things will fall into place.

JL
Thanks for posting. Message recieved and understood. I will be paying closer attention to how women interact. Thanks for sharing.

SoulDragoN,

I'll do my best, but first let me tell you something about 6. Most guys understand 6, we accept it. After all we are expected to fight to the death if necessary to protect our family. We are expected to be in the military and "die for our country". It is part of who males are. If you have male children you know that they most often seem to have little worry about their lives or well being. It is part of who we are.

As for #6, let me tell you a story. My father was in the military, and a combat pilot, from Pearl Harbor on. He served in WWII, Korea, Vietnam. I was the first child and a male (obviously ) and my father was very tough on me. It used to drive my mother crazy. But, he was not only tough no me in a decipline way, but in ways that seemed strange to her. He would be explaining banking to me, when I was around 6, compound interest, and by the time I was 9 he expected me to understand and compute compound interest in my head. He explained stocks, bonds, mortgages everything, and as YOU might imagine I was NOT THRILLED.

Years later I realized what was going on. He was a child of the depression and had little trust in financial institutions, especially banks. His concern seems valid in this day and age doesn't it? But, what he was doing was training me to help my mother when he died. He had no idea when that was going to happen, but he knew he would die way before my mother, and as the oldest he expected me to help her take care of the finances and my younger siblings.

A lot more of this became clear to me, when I went into the military during Vietnam and was signing forms about life insurance, and who would get it. I was not married at the time.

#6 is a very normal thing for us guys. Your H is trying to help you so that you won't be lost when he is gone.

Now as to your list.

1. Be happy. Of all of things I want for my W and from my W is that she be happy.

2. Share with him his recreation things, even if you don't want to do them, share an interest in them.

3. Help him socially and show him by showing others that you respect him and love him.

4. Kid him, laugh with him and even joke with him.

5. Develop a language between you two that allows you both to express deep feelings easily, desires clearly and with love, and important things rapidly. Most older couples do this.

6. Well did someone mention SF???

7. Touch him, put your hands on him occasionally, give him a hug, heck, try a pat on the butt.

Men don't need words to SHOW love, they mostly need actions to ShOW love. Although, our ego's are above a little stroking now and again.

Hope this helps.

God Bless,

JL

PS: OH! I forgot a very important one, men NEED to be NEEDED. Its good for our ego, and frankly it counters the focus on money.

You know JL....I figured that one out the hard way...
I was SUCH a fool!!!
I NEED him with every fiber of my being...and want him to KNOW that...but he never does.
Thank you from the bottom of my heart.

I only wish my H was HOME....his work takes him all around the world...and I hold down the fort so to speak. Same like my mom did.

I love him soooo much...it hurts! Miss him...and tears are welling up.,.,.,..damn...

Recreation? LOL....He is a working machine. Never stops fixing stuff around the house. NEVER...never time to leave the home mountain...always fixing things. He is truly amazing.

So...I mix cement with him, and am his tool gopher..lol . It IS a long haul to the workshop. Love to do that for him.
I'll be following right behind him....can't see life without him. Really can't.
He is my reason for being.....strangely terrifying.
Want nothing without him to share it.


So...when he doubts me....it's like being disemboweled...

Thanks bc

My H forwarded an email to me today (from the mens group he used to attend) saying he would like us to read this book. Here's a snippet of the email:

"With Pastor Rick Warren starting , 40 Days of Love, I thought is was
appropriate to reiterate briefly introducing and talking about Gary
Chapman's book, "The Five Love Languages."

If one has not read the book, I would strongly encourage thinking about
reading the book. Gary Chapman, in The Five Love Languages, states there
are 5 ways people receive feel love, Physical Touch, Acts of Service,
Receiving Small Gifts, Quality Time and Words of Affirmation."


Guess he's listening! Anyone read the book?

SD,

you said
Easy answer, tell him. You have no idea how powerful that can be.


You are smart. You are sharing time with him and I can tell you that most men really appreciate it. We like company when we work and for you to help him as well, is a really good idea.

So when are you going to get him to help you??? He is I know.

But, a lady needs to get clean after all of that work doesn't she? A lady get hungery and may need to go out after all of that work doesn't she? A lady might needs some flowers while she is out and sees some might she not?

SD, meeting needs and getting them met can be fun. You have no idea the power you have over your H, you just need to use it with a dash of this, a dab of that, and a touch of humor.

God Bless,

JL

Nowis,

I have not, but many have and think it is very insightful. Often reading a book such as this and discussing it in third person allows people to get deep into a subject without recriminations or judgements. It is something to consider. If he wants to discuss your marriage in the context of this book go for it.

God Bless,

JL