Yes, it's a very good book and was quite helpful to me. So much so I bought his "The 5 Love Languages of Children" book.

I read this book before finding MB.

I cannot, however, say it is a better book than HNHN or a book one should read on top of HNHN as I haven't read Dr. Harley's book. I got so much out of the 5 Love Languages that applies directly to Dr. Harley's principles I didn't feel it was necessary to read another book about ENs.

I read both, and the similarities reinforced to me how these were universal truths, that most anyone could come back from most any situation by following a simple plan. There has been a LOT of hope for me in that! It helps, too, knowing folks IRL who practice these ideas in their everyday life, whether they found them in a book or not. LIke JL describes, watching folks who have been married a lifetime.

NITM,

I just wanted to touch on something that Just Learning said:


Not trying to put words into JL's mouth, but I think what he is saying is that us men don't always tell all of the things that we go through for our families. For the most part, especially if we are "old-school" as JL has said, we see it as OUR problem and not our spouse's or children's.

I can think of times that in my occupation, had I been single, I would have not tolerated the job any longer...but yet...because I had a wife and children to support, I did. To me, that was a huge sacrifice. Maybe my occupation had gotten to the point to where I just couldn't take it any longer due to job requirements, or changes; It could have been due to a new supervisor that I just absolutely could not get along with - possibly a co-worker that makes my job miserable. I know that myself, driving nearly 2 hours one way is starting to take it's toll on me, however...because I have a wife and 3 step-children that depend on me, I do it anyways.

But...if I didn't have all these people depending on me, flipping burgers at McDonald's sounds pretty darned good sometimes.

My wife and kids would never know that I feel this way sometimes. Why? Because some of us men just simply won't tell that information. We are worried that some women would take it the wrong way, i.e., that we are blaming them in some way or the other for having to do what we don't feel like doing. It can be a double-edged sword sometimes, so...we keep it to ourselves.

And...if possibly somewhere along the line we are hearing complaints about being away from home too much, well...now we have just doubled hating our job.

Also, someone mentioned about the husband not seeming to interested in our wives complaints. Why are we quiet when they complain? It's simple. Within a micro-second of hearing of a problem we go into "solve-mode". This occurs almost INSTANTLY! We can't see the "fixing" just our spouse. We see fixing the problem instead. If we fix the problem that is bothering our spouse, we fix the spouse's problem at the same time.

We do this naturally. In most of our jobs when a problem arises, we don't have the luxury to complain, vent, or think about the problem. We go into "solve-mode" almost immediately. We don't dwell on it, or talk about it. We solely concentrate on SOLVING it.

Like I said earlier - in a micro-second we go into that mode. It's nothing derogatory or uncaring toward our spouses - it's just what we do.

I hope that maybe something I have just said helps you see a little deeper into how most of us men function.

HCII

hcii

Yes, I've often wondered about that. How he shows up for work day after day. He enjoys his job very much but I see that he has the huge responsibility of providing for his family. I appreciate it, I really do.

I really get the whole idea of the guy wanting to fix or solve a problem. It took me a while to work out that that this approach was a caring one. Not just a random solution which was designed to shut me up. It was just his (you guys) way of trying to ease our discomforts. Make everyone happy. I realized there were times I would have to tell him to just listen. That's all I wanted and not to worry about finding a solution.

JL -

Off topic but I am troubled by it.

I am watching a particular thread of someone here that seems to hate his WW but continually have sex with her. I thought having sex was to show love? What is happening in this situation? I couldn't stand to be touched when things were going wrong.

I just don't understand it and it bothers me. Sorry to ask such a question and please don't berate me for it.

Now,

I'm with you.

I read that book, with our small group from church. H read it too, or at least parts of it, I think. It is a lot like ENs. I tend to think in terms of both. There are some needs that are simpler for me to think about in the 5 categories of Chapman - like Acts of Service (could be Domestic Support, but could also be fixing your computer) and Giving Gifts (Could be Financial Support maybe... but not exactly... could even be inexpensive trinkets, just to say I was thinking of you).

Quality Time could be RC or it could be Conversation or it could be UA... or even sharing DS or FC... however you slice it, it is my A-Number One Top Love Language. So it makes more sense in my mind to just call it Quality Time instead of subdividing it up.

I do recommend it. It won't be vastly different from HNHN but it can't hurt.

Nowis,

I am not sure which thread you are talking about. But, let's take this in a hypthetical sense. If the H and the WW want to have sex, then why should they not. Here is something that often is very confusing. It is best summarized by a quote from Eli Weismann (sp)
It is not unusual to have folks post here how seem to hate their spouse and what they did and yet...

Below all of this is a lot of pain, and love, and fear. For men sex often normalizes things. He would not really be hear if he truly hated his W, he would be in court getting rid of her.

The reason most of us knew you had things within you that you seemed to not see, was that you came here, and you continued. It indicated that you wanted change but it wasn't to get rid of your H.

This guy is probably very similar. He really really hates what she did, but deep down he does not hate her. This stuff is really nonlinear and often counter intuitive, which is why the Harley approach often seems to people to be weird.

YOU WANT ME TO PLAN A MY CHEATING SPOUSE?????? Yup!

Don't know if it helps. If you will tell me the thread I might be able to give you a better answer.

God Bless,

JL

Thanks JL

It's the "Need help from the experienced people" thread. I suppose we all communicate differently. It still baffles me though. Perhaps I will just leave it at that.

I've been thinking about SF in relationships a lot. It's very obviously the area in my M that trips me up. It is still very much a function to me - if you understand. It's enjoyable, don't get me wrong, but it's not changing me at all much. I'm not at the point where I think it would be nice if we could make love for a few hours. It's still pretty short but becoming a habit now. I know my H would like more.

I suppose what I'm asking is, will it change? Will it become more passionate? Does it just require more time? Emotionally, I don't feel there yet. I don't know what really holds me back. Is this just an indicator that it is still early days?

This is probably too much to ask, I know. Afterall, you are not me or my H but you might just know why.

Thank you, thank you

Nowis,

Darned if I know the answer.

But, let's review a few things about SF that we do know.

We know that it is an emotional connection because it is soooo intimate.

We know for men it is the one time we allow ourselves to actually be really really close to another person physically and put our guards down.

We know it is also hormonally driven, again most often men have stronger drives than women.

We know for some women there is little sexual drive from a hormonal standpoint, but there can be from a circumstantial point of view.

We know SF is healthy for both males and females both physically and emotionally.

WE know it is an emotional need that is often strongest in men and often not strong in women.

What we also know is that we often need something we cannot define and confuse that need for something else. Often in women they find SF within an affair more exciting than within the safe confines of the marriage. Men may do this as well, but from reading here it seems this is more strongly associated with women.

So why do you feel the way you do? I don't know. Maybe you are actually afraid of the deep emotional connections and vulnerability of SF with your H. While SF with OM did not have the connotation for you but was just plain raw sex. No attachment, no quarter asked, no quarter given. I don't know.

My guess is that you work well with your H except when deep emotional connections are involved, but that is only a guess.

Time for you to put your thinking cap on, but not to the detriment of you enjoying your life and your family.

I hope something I have said is of help.

God Bless,

JL

Thanks Jayne

He said this would better help him understand what I need (and my list).

We hope to read a bit of it together each day, if we can. This will help to keep us on the same track, hopefully.

JL

Yes, what you said made a lot of sense.

I am very guilty of checking out. I check out emotionally, a lot. My H is very connected to his emotions. He cries, he's physically affectionate and he verbally expresses how he feels. I guess I'm not great at that. I generally hold it all in.



That, unfortunately, was true. Although you know, I was looking for something to happen to me emotionally. Something to be unlocked. To 'feel' something. Was this going to be the key to help me feel love? Not on your life. It didn't do that.



My H says I'm not vulnerable to him. I guess I have a problem with it. I don't know how to become vulnerable. Some things I just don't feel and can't express.


p.s
Read 6yearsleft post and 'bingo' there it was. When he was having SF with his W he said "the sex was pretty mechanical". He was said he was just "emotionally divorced".

Nowisthemoment


Just a thought how are you in trusting?
Do you trust your husband without reservation?
Do you have reason because of your family of origin to try to protect yourself?
Do you feel safe with your husband?
Where do you feel safe?
Who do you trust? Anyone?

Blessings
BCBOY

bcboy

Just a thought how are you in trusting?

I think I'm okay and have a realistic amount of trust in people and situations.

Do you trust your husband without reservation?

Yes, I believe I do.

Do you have reason because of your family of origin to try to protect yourself?

Within my immediate family unit, I was safe. Growing up, my mother's mantra to us children, was to never trust anyone. You can't trust men and you can't trust your friends either.

Do you feel safe with your husband?

Yes, I do feel safe with my H.

Where do you feel safe?

I feel safe within my family unit. At home.

Who do you trust? Anyone?

I trust my H. I trust my children. I trust my best friend. That's about it.

Well you are well on your way. I was curious about trust because that seems to me to be an integral part of being able to be vulnerable. In my mind they are closly linked.

Previously you mentioned you had difficulty being vulnerable. Yet you trust. I was just wondering to myself what might be inhibiting you from taking the leap to vulnerability.

To answer your question on how am I on trusting. I am very blessed as I am surrounded by wonderful trustworthy people. Perhaps that is why I am having such difficulty with comprehending how my W could violate the trust I had in her. I used to trust her. Now I can't. She has shown me disrespect by her behaviour. The question will be will the damage ever be repaired. Right now she is feeling justified in her actions. So I am having to protect myself. Plan B is on the horizon. Hope that answers your question.

God Bless you and your family.

BCBOY

Hey bc, I don't know. I really don't know. I just don't know. There's a deficit in me that I just can't sort out.

Anyway, I've been following your other post. Some of the things Stellakat said made so much sense. You are very kind hearted and so willing to give everyone the benefit of the doubt. Ready to see the best in other people. Always trying to empathize. You give your wife 'space', move out of the house and she doesn't give a monkey's uncle. However, SK was so right about your W disrespecting you big time. She has no idea how 'lucky' she is that you are her spouse rather than some of the BSs here. I'm gad you are moving to a new perspective.

I wonder, do you cry?

Look after yourself bc. You have helped me a lot and I mention you in my 'mutterings' to 'God'.

*lovely*...another one.

Didn't help that my father cheated on my mother either...

I was told by my therapist, that often we marry the people that we do, to heal the pains of our childhood. I wonder sometimes...

My H's mother cheated on his father...caught her.
My father cheated on my mom, and I put it together and told my mom.

....and then he and I met and married....but not without that FEAR that IF we throw ourselves into marriage 110%...will the other screw you over? Is it only a question of time?

I'd kill my H first before I would ever have the thought to "cheat' on him...

I have to say, Now, that you really had to dislike your husband an awful lot to cheat on him. What did he do to you to make you dislike him so much?

What you did you really do not even do to an enemy. Did you feel your husband was your enemy or something????

Who would cheat on a husband who seems as nice as he does???

Oh gosh Sk I know I didn't like him for various reasons but it does not excuse my behavior. There's no taking back what I did to my H. None. I wish I could, I wish I could. Bottom line, there's no justifying it either. No making excuses for it.

SD said she'd rather kill her husband than cheat on him. I understand the sentiment.

Sometimes there are things in us that we may not be able to sort out. Perhaps with therapy, perhaps with prayer, perhaps with time it may change. In my opinion as long as you are aware of it then you can make the appropriate changes in your response. I think JL gave you the secret, perspective. I know those words have really impacted me.


You know Nowis it never really sunk in until just recently that she is disrespecting me. She is not the only one in a fog. I have been in shock. I am working on a plan though. I am very fortunate to have found this place and to have some very good friends. My best friend said to me the other day "what you have had to live with is not normal, move on, there is someone better for you out there".

In one way it is nice to hear those words as it provides reassurance about oneself. On the other hand it is painful as I still love my W. However one has to look at the reality of the situation and I will have to see what the future may hold. Once again it boils down to trust. Will I ever be able to trust her again. SK was right, she is twisting the knife in my heart.


I never used to cry. But I must admit lately I have. I think it is triggered by the loss. I have lost everthing I worked for. JL mentioned how men show love by working at a job they would otherwise leave. That was me. I slugged it out, all in the name of making sure those under my care were looked after. And it has paid off. All my children went on to further education because the money was there for them to do that. But I am grieving because I thought I was demonstrating my love to my wife, just like JL's post described, but she still feels I neglected her emotionally. But I am beginning to see that it may be as a result of her family of origin issues and that she may be blaming me so she can escape having to take accountability for how she feels.

I thank you for your prayers. Right now that is the most precious thing to me. You know it is interesting, I know there are people honouring me by praying for me and it is working. I feel this great sense of peace, and usually if I was in a situation like I am in now I would be really stressed. As difficult as this situation is, it has had an interesting effect, it has caused me to lean on God like I never have before. So many things are out of my control. I have always been the answer man, for friends and for family, but I am out of answers. I have no choice but to lean on God, and it is reassuring to sense his presence in my life. Thank you for your prayers they do make a difference.

God Bless.