FWIW, I originally posed this possible alternative interpretation of the OP's true motives. After reading the following comments, and the ensuing pi$$ing match ... it is obvious that some will try to get to the bottom of an issue, some will see what they want to see, and some will simply argue for the sake of arguing.

Anyway, you all are free to believe whatever you choose, but the more I read, the more I see very big HOLES in this story of valid unanswered questions. There are obviously exceptions to nearly every rule, and I would tend to question why so many are willing to accept this particular case as the "exception"?

Yes, I have. She complained about how the marriage was and the fighting, and what her husband said about fighting her for custody.

Having no reason to doubt what he is saying is not true, I shared with her that it's likely she has not seen anything yet should she choose to pursue the divorce.

She said the she did not want to expose their child to any more fighting. The best way to do that is to avoid divorce. There is no bigger fight between a husband and wife than a divorce, not to mention it does little to nothing to solve the issues between them.

My concern is that her chosen course of action will ESCALATE the conflict, not end it.

Yes, I did hear her, and addressed one of her stated concerns. Not in the same way you did, and certainly not the solution she is looking to.

But to say that I'm pursuing MY agenda is a hollow and false argument.
See above, one of her concerns was about the fighting. If she chooses divorce and tries to take the child as sole custodian she's probably not seen anything yet.
I gave my observations. I still contend that while there may not a specific OM, I think she is "in love" with the idea of not being with him certainly, and possibly, but this is speculation, that she thinks about what it might be like with a different man.

But that's just a scenario, speculation. I admit it. I put it out there as food for thought. Not as any sort of judgment. I think we all, even at times in good marriages wonder if we've made a mistake or how things might have been with another.

And I agree with you that sometimes folks HAVE made mistakes in who they've chosen, etc.
But you assume I didn't recognize it. I think that is where your criticism is sourced.

I've never once said his behavior was good. I've only pointed out where she is following the same outline. Complaining about how her needs are not being met, but dismissing his.

In no way does that excuse his behavior.

So are you saying you see no similarties to her ignoring his need for financial security and his ignoring her need for emotional support?

She is the one that is saying his financial needs are out of line, but when he in his actions said the same thing about her emotional needs is condemned.

So I can see how me MIGHT feel like he's lying there, emotionally abandoned when she dismisses his needs.

It doesn't mean that I'm saying what he did was justified. Certainly not. I'm simply asking why she think it's ok for her to dismiss him, but complain when she's dismissed.

It doesn't add up!

That's all.

If that's disturbing to you, then I don't know what else to say. I painted a word picture using something she experienced. I asked if she wasn't doing the same SORT of thing to him by blowing off and judging harshly his desire for financial support.

Agreed. Yet we do no good to simply say get out, and never ask the person to examine their stuff. She says she has, and I guess that's all we'll get here, since she doesn't want to talk about it.

Yet what I've said all along is simply that she goes on and on about him and his faults, and says little or nothing about her own.

If that is how she has dealt with this all along, I think she'll find herself in the same circumstance in future relationships.

If she's dealt with herself and her issues, and is making progress in a plan to address them, then she'll likely be fine.

But we have nothing but her assurance that she's been working for 3 years.

Am I saying she lying? Nope. All I said was when I see a person go on and on about their spouse, with little detail about what they've done it sets off a red flag in my head.



I think we are the same. I tend not to SLAM people. I don't always agree, and I'm troubled by inconsistencies and apparent double standards.

I saw what looked like those things in here. Her statements about he's a good father, etc, done nothing wrong, but they were not compatible, etc. I saw the critique of him, his behavior as well as his lack of meeting her need for emotional support, while at the same time her dismissing his desire, his need for financial security.

So that troubled me. It's the my needs are more valid than your needs argument. And frankly, BOTH of them were likely left lying there emotionally after that exchange. I wouldn't give either of them a gold star for their respective roles in the exchange.

Yet as I said above, if one of her goals is to avoid a big fight, choosing divorce is NOT going to achieve that goal. It's likely to escalate the fight.

If she's been to the pastor, I wonder how the pastor would weigh in on a choice to divorce given she says he's a good father, done nothing wrong, etc.

My personal opinion is that a group of Godly men from her church (assuming he too is a member) need to go have a talk with him, man to man, to wake him up to how destructive HIS behavior is, and what it has done to the marriage.

If he refuses to clean up his act after that. Then I'd suggest she get out as she has indicated is her desire.

I only say that because of her stated concerns about the fighting. I think the fighting WILL get worse if she chooses unilaterally to divorce him.

She has given a conflicting set of objectives. She wants to leave him, but she doesn't want fighting. I don't think she can have both.

So I've suggested that perhaps the fighting could end without ending the marriage.

Will it? I dunno, he's not here. We don't know his story, his complaints, his willingness to address her complaints. I'm pretty certain that if she wants a divorce, she is NOT willing to listen to his complaints and address them. She judged his concern for financial security as invalid.

So I see troubling behavior on both sides of the ball. Is it offsetting penalties? Dunno.

Maybe it is time to call the game. I'm simply not comfortable advising that unless I hear from BOTH parties.

Wow, there are several more pages since I logged out yesterday - probably lots to do with this. MEDC, you may be perfectly correct and this person IS being emotionally abused. I'm not accusing her of being untruthful and I don't see anything TOO indicitive of infidelity either. However, there IS another side to the story and people DO have a tendancy to see the grass on the other side of the fence as greener. If she is truly considering divorce, she should be well aware of not only the divorce process, but what divorced life is likely to be before she takes the plunge. If there were no children involved, it would be a simple matter of dividing assets (as what the bulk of her questions were about anyway). The presence of a child makes things infinitely more complicated. She needs to know that she won't automatically be awarded full custody simply because she's the mother, AND that her stbxH won't automatically be out of her life even if she is awarded full custody. You would be surprised how many people fail to understand this until they are in the middle of their new life coparenting with their X.

Why does it even matter if there are holes? None of us personally know this poster, nor are we involved in her situation. She asked advice - give it if you can. Though part of that may mean asking if there is another person - because that obviously changes the advice given. But without knowing for sure, there's no need to jump all over it. If she's having an A, she'll probably continue to do so regardless of what a bunch of anonymous people on a bb have to say.

I disagree 100% about the fighting issue. Divorce will likely lead to a halt of major hostilities. While the divorce itself can get messy...children are not witness to the fight...that is done by lawyers and the parents. And the divorce in this case will allow her (and him) the chance to show this kid what a happy home looks like. According to what she has said...and that is all we have to go on...this child will deal with a lifetime of cr@p if they remain married.

Divorcing a person unwilling to work on a marriage...and who is displaying abusive behaviors...is a GREAT idea.

Her ignoring his need for financial support....and I do not consider his need valid based on what she stated...is a far cry from leaving your physically fallen wife on the ground. That is ABUSE.

Using your logic...one could argue a slap/punch/kick is similar too. I mean he could feel like he was slapped across the face financially...kicked while he was down...punched in the gut...etc.

yes, it does. And it also makes it all the more important that she provide a happy family life for the child. If she is convinced that she cannot have that with her husband, she should find another way to allow for that.

If this woman mentioned another man, I would not take this stance...she has assured me that is not the case and therefore I think she is making a wise decision.

Maybe. Those for divorce are assuming this will be the case. They have the chance to show the child a happy home in either circumstance. I believe if they are unable to demonstrate this while together, it will be HARDER not easier for them to show the child a happy home while divorced.

It's certainly possible. However, the stats show in most cases those who choose divorce are not happier years later. Their happiness is the same or lower than while married.

So while it's possible, it's also against the odds.


I wont argue with you about his behavior. But none of us get to pick what are and are not his valid needs.


Doing something that knowingly hurts another person IS abuse. So if she knows a behavior of his hurts him, it's no different than him doing something he knows hurts her.

That's what I'm saying. I'm not saying the hurts are the same. But doing something that one knows will inflict pain is the same type of behavior regardless how it's manifested.

Just as he doesn't get to tell her his behavior shouldn't have hurt her, none of us gets to tell him how much or how little her behavior should hurt him.

And note, I'm not saying her behavior DOES hurt him. What I'm saying if it's an expressed need of his, and she blows it off, it's LIKELY that he is hurt by it.

Just like none of us get to tell her she shouldn't feel hurt by his behavior, and let's be clear, I've never said she should not feel hurt, unloved, not cherished, etc. I totally get why she feels that way based on what she has shared.

It's just that I'm uncomfortable saying, "go for it" without hearing both parties in the matter.

She may be 101% correct in her decision. None of us can really know by hearing only one person.

True, but that is what we have to go on.

So I'm asking questions, asking for him to speak on the subject, etc.

Instead of just going on incomplete data.

I'm not willing to say divorce the bum until I hear from the alleged bum.

I'm not saying I'm right. I'm saying I'm not willing to make that judgment at this time.

She has made it clear that is not going to happen and that her mind is made up regarding divorce. She has made very clear that she doesn't want to go into the discussion that you seemingly want to have. If she did...that's fine. But why badger her about things she clearly is not seeking opinion or advice on.



She wasn't asking you to . She was asking for advice on custody issues.

And I've given my advice, which is not popular with either your or her.

She is free to ignore the questions. As you've said, there is an ignore feature here.

She is an adult and doesn't need you to defend her.

If my questions bother you, you are free to put me on ignore as well.

She may not be willing to answer. Yet none of that makes my questions any less valid.

Perhaps I am wasting my time. Yet it's my decision to make how I spend my time. If I want to spend it asking questions I'll never get an answer to, then I'll do that.

If she wants to get a divorce, she'll do that. If you want to keep questioning my sanity or motives, I'm sure you'll keep doing that too.

good idea. consider it done.

Can I get an AMEN!!!

Why do we assume there may be an affair?

I have been on this website for at least 8 years. Time and time and time again we have heard stories like yours. The husband is nasty to the wife. Why? Because there is another woman he is either cheating with or emotionally cheating with...which causes him to only see the worst in his wife. It happened to me in fact.

Or the wife just has to get out of the marriage. Nothing is really wrong except she can't stand him. That guy at work who she sits with at lunch, though, can't understand why her husband wouldn't want a great catch like her! She thinks the guy is right! I wish my husband would talk to me like that she thinks. So she talks to him more and more...

We have seen it over and over again. That is why we assume. There is usually a reason for the disrespect, and an affair or a personality disorder is usually the reason.

[/quote]

So I'm asking questions, asking for him to speak on the subject, etc.

Instead of just going on incomplete data.

I'm not willing to say divorce the bum until I hear from the alleged bum.

I'm not saying I'm right. I'm saying I'm not willing to make that judgment at this time. [/quote]



DUDE! Seriously, get a freaking grip! I don't remember asking for your permission!

You SERIOUSLY want me to go get my husband, have him create an ID, and tell you his side of the story? Just so you can get some answers to YOUR questions? I'm busting a gut here. I came here for advice, privately. These are questions that I have and he doesn't need to see this discussion. It is for my benefit. He is welcome to post anything anywhere on the internet that he likes and if he ends up here, then so be it, but it won't be at my invitation. This is MY space and MY thread and these are MY questions.

Do you demand the same thing from everyone who posts here? Do you go to the Infidelity board and demand every poster go get their spouse so you can read their side of the story? Don't you know how ridiculous that sounds?

And I am LOL at how you could equate him leaving me on the ground physically to me "leaving him on the ground financially". Did you not read the part about him making 125K a year? That is hardly chump change. Did you also miss the part where I said I would leave him the house and cabin? I don't have to do that. I would also not take a dime of child support if I got custody of our son. My husband is not concerned with making the mortgage payments. He is concerned that he won't be able to afford the new snowmobile, Harley, and fishing boat that he has had his eyes on. Sorry, but I'm not going to worry about whether or not he gets those things.

You obviously have also missed the title of this forum. This is the "Divorced/Divorcing" forum. I think that would be a big hint to the average reader than all of the people starting threads here are either divorced or going through a divorce. If the forum was called "Should I get a divorce? Can I get your permission please?", then maybe I would have to explain my whole life to you. But on this forum....not so much.

I won't be putting you on ignore because I actually find it quite entertaining to see someone spend all their time arguing with thin air.

Thank-you to everyone who gave sincere and helpful advice. I got some good answers.

EXCELLENT response.

If you think I'm saying you have to have my permission, you totally missed my point.

I clearly said I'm not willing to make a judgment, either way unless I know the story from both side.

medc is willing to make a judgment based on one side of the story.

Just two different people who look at things two different ways.

Just because medc is painting this as if I'm expecting you do things my way doesn't mean he has accurately judged my intentions.

So you can listen to him, or you can listen to the actual person who knows his intentions when it comes to what I mean, etc.

I tend to believe folks when they describe their intentions, and tend to discount the interpretations of others when they try to paint folks as they see them.

You see, I totally believe you with respect to how you feel. I have no reason to doubt it, etc.

However, I take with a grain of salt your description of your husband. Just like I'd take with a grain of salt his description of you.

That's all.

I certainly don't expect you to act to please me.

I simply gave my opinion, which is that I'm not comfortable with saying divorce without hearing his side.

It certainly doesn't mean you have to gain my approval. I clearly said that.

Others are willing to say do it, without hearing his perspective. They are free to do that as well.

Like I said, I wish you and your family well regardless how this turns out.

Questions,

One thing you might want to consider is mediation. The mediator in my case did in 12 hours what our $300+/hour lawyers could not do in 6 months. My ex did not start cooperating until after the court got involved. It might take your stbx losing a round(s) in court to get some cooperation. If you get his cooperation go to mediation and save yourself a ton of money in legal fees. In my experience at the end of the day it was all business with the courts and they don’t care about who cheated on who and who left who laying on the ground. Be reasonable, open to negotiation, business like and above all else keep the best interest of your child in mind. It will become apparent to the court very quickly who the trouble maker is and then the court can act accordingly.

Don’t be so quick to turn down financial support for your child. I have been learning just how expensive children are. It’s left me floored. I am in the same position you are where I can afford to raise my child on my own but it’s expensive. If you retain custody and you don’t want child support directly maybe you can negotiate where he can contribute X amount into some type of college fund every month for your child.

I hope everything works out for you.

Hi Lotsa,

I tried to PM you but am new, maybe newbies can't PM? Who knows.

What your H does to you is called withholding, it's a form of abuse. If he does not give you what you want, he can pretend you don't really exist.

Under Michigan law you don't need anyone's permission to divorce, nor are you required to jump through hoops. You hire an attorney and they will guide you from there. Your custody questions can best be answered by a Michigan attorney. I know a few that I would recommend and a few I would strongly advise you against hiring. If I can get some time I will post a link to a site that will help you with Michigan Family Law questions.

There is an excellent forum for talking about abuse related issues, including recovering from the effects of abuse as well. Not sure if it's allowed to post it here or not.

I am NOT in Michigan now but custody and child related issues are still in it's jurisdiction.

Good luck to you. Living in a marriage where you are ignored or treated as if you don't matter is not worth it.

And I agree, your child will do much better in two happier homes than one miserable one.

FS