BCB

Your male perspective is always welcome.

When we disagree, we don't argue and shout. He gets impatient and cross. I tend to check out or retreat. We just go to our own corners.



Interesting... I have NEVER used "pillow talk time". So, in this moment, guys take on board what their W's are saying? Do they then forget.?

So, you are saying that I, regardless of how I feel, should just continue to meet his SF need? This is where it falls down for me. I have to feel we're in some kind of harmony to want to initiate because even then, as you know for me, it's work to initiate. When we're in a pressured place, sex is the last thing I feel I can do. I don't know why. Is this part of my crappy thinking too? It's like make-up sex - something I've never done. So, is this part of faking it and changing my thinking? Am I just wired differently. I am reluctant and feel an aversion to it. That's why I don't understand those relationships that are seriously falling apart and the couples continue to have SF?! I just feel like it's just using someone without care. Feels icky.

Okay, that's the first time I have ever said it out loud.

As my old boss used to say "Yesirreee if things don't change they will stay the same"

Well, we had a positive conversation at 4am this morning?!? We managed to push through and spell things out to each other. Steps to take towards each other and out of our respective corners. My H is missing SF and honestly didn't know how to approach me particularly when I was seemingly depressed and down. He knows what he needs generally which is lots of holding, cuddling and being close. I am the opposite. I realized how sad and pathetic, after all these years, how difficult our sex life was. How we really didn't get each other and how little we learned. How awful I was and how incompatible we seem.

So, the long and short of it is is that he has to work out a way to approach me and not expect it to lead to SF. I have to work at being more affectionate and cuddly with it not having to lead to SF. He said it is crucial to him to feel physically close to me - lots of physical touch. This is a big one that I have to learn as I don't need it myself.

It's work having to do all this and we both know that if we can't get it right and change things, we will both be dissatisfied.

Nowis, you sound like you are flowing along with your feelings. What is your plan to restore your marriage? Does it start with love busters?

I encourage you to read this article:

How to Meet the Emotional Need for Sexual Fulfillment (Part 1)


You can do this, Nowis! Don't give into today's temporary feelings and give up!

Thanks Ears

I read through the stuff you specifically pointed to.

One area stood out to me that we need to work on so we are not love busting. The area of Dishonesty. I guess there has been a lot of this in our marriage. Particularly dishonesty just by omission. I've not shared how I've truly felt so as not to be seen as a horrible person. He doesn't truly say what he feels or wants because of fear, misconception and not making other people feel bad. From day one in our marriage we have done that. Polite to a fault but not truthful.

So now that we are putting it all out on the table and I am 'fessing up to my thoughts/feelings the good, bad and the ugly - it is hard work. I too want to retreat. I worry that my H doesn't like to face the truth either because it's uncomfortable and requires change. Even after my A and the horrendous stuff I was surprised how quickly he moved through it. Now that may be okay and he has an amazing capacity of forgiveness and putting the past behind us but we need to seriously work on finding and connecting to each other everyday.

I won't give up although sorely tempted. If I do, then I settle for a mediocre and dishonest relationship where maybe he or I, one day out of the blue, will just get up and walk away for good.

Actually I don't think he really did process what happened. I think he was trying to avoid the issues that lead up to the A. He likely does not know how to fix it so is probably taking the approach that if you both pretend, you can put the past behind you and can ride off into the sunset together in bliss and happiness.

My suspicion is your H is secretly thinking that his part of the bargain will be to overlook the affair and your part of the bargain will be to overlook the issues that caused you to be unhappy with the relationship, and VOILA everything is all better. In the meanwhile the elephant in the middle of the room grows bigger.

But the past is still rearing its ugly head as indicated by your feelings. You can come here for support but you are really starting to get down to the nitty gritty now. Brace yourself and be prepared to be patient as this is not going to be a quick fix.
How will you determine what is reasonable regarding expectations?
I suspect you both have expectations and how will each of you meet each others expectations?
Do you both know what good looks like? Not ( I just want to be happy, I want to feel fulfilled, and a member of the team etc...)This sort of thing is too open ended, even if it may be true.


Have you considered hiring a guide (MC) to help you work through this process? My concern would be right now is, your H will be very nervous about not upsetting you, and you both may get discouraged because you are not fixing the issues quickly enough. Time to call in the pros there Nowis as you two have been trying to fix this on your own with mixed results for too long now.

But on the upside you are talking. This is really good if you both don't get discouraged by lack of progress. If you are both honest but things do not change because of it then how long will it be before someone slips into indifference?

Good luck

Nowis,

I'm on travel but got a chance to check out the board. I think you have been great advice. You said
I am reading this and have lots to say but I'm not sure how to say it. Men NEED physical contact, we are physical beings. Your aversion to physical contact is interesting given your original description of your thoughts concerning your H. You felt he was a wimp and the OM was a real man that took what he wanted. Yet, you have an aversion of contact. I am wondering if you really have an aversion to emotional intimacy really. Most men I know really enjoy their W's coming up and putting their arms around them or taking their hand, simple things really, but it indicates so many things.

Part of what you may be seeing is that your H has forgiven you, but he cannot forgive himself, nor does he have much faith in himself. I am sure he is very very reticent to approach you about things. HE KNOWS what you felt and perhaps still feel about him. He is NOT comfortable now and he is NOT in his comfort zone when you start to talk about intimacy and what you need because you have made it clear what you NEED is in fact NOT HIM. He is still competing with your OM in his mind whether you think so or not.



You don't need physical touch but clearly you need other things because you are unhappy with him and the marriage. Don't you think this should be a two way street? My concern is that the damage done by the affair has not really been addressed by you or your H. As you mentioned he has a "comfort" zone, and talking about how he feels about your H and about himself is NOT in most guys "comfort" zone. He needs a lot of reassurance that he has a chance to be the husband you need, not just the husband you tolerate.


A comfortable man will talk about what his W needs and wants to make her happy. A comfortable woman doesn't have to THINK about snuggling with her H. A comfortable woman doesn't struggle to understand that SF is important to her H.

Your A did more damage that you realize to both yourself and your H.


Please think about these things.

God Bless,

JL

JL

I very much appreciate the time you take to reply, particularly as you are traveling - thank you.

Things are strained but we are hanging in there. We are trying to get the SF back on track but with false starts.


I think that aversion is maybe too strong a word. I generally like to hold hands, have little hugs with my H outside of it leading to SF. Generally I don't seem to look for and need lots of hugs, touches and kisses. Quite simply, I never grew up with it. I never had it. I was rarely touched. So, as I child I lived without it. So, that's why I don't rely on it really - don't really 'need' it although in truth I do. As a child there was no emotional intimacy either. Not in touch or words.


Yes, I sense he doesn't know what to do, a lot. For every hesitation and backward step I take it just reinforces his feeling of inadequacy. I hate this and it is beyond sad that I have made him feel this way. In our conversations this past weekend, I have been asking him to tell me how HE FEELS, for him to say what HE WANTS. Not just try to sort me out. Looking at the problem and trying to fix me. I want to hear what he wants not what he thinks I should be doing. That has been hard for him. I need to hear and feel what he wants. This, I know, helps me to get out of myself and look at him to see if I can meet his needs. Giving.

However, even when I've worked through this it's still hard to just do it right now. I'm struggling with myself right now.

Last night, I read a couple of chapters from the 5 Love Languages whilst my H had put it down. In the physical touch chapter of needs, it touched on steps to take if you are trying to build physical intimacy. For example, hugging until relaxed. So this reminded me of a book that I bought about 4 years ago called "Passionate Marriage" Keeping Love and Intimacy Alive in Committed Relationships, by David Schnarch. I dug it out about 20 minutes ago. Has anyone ever read it?

Got to run.

"Passionate Marriage" is one of the first marriage books I ever bought, if not the first. At the time, it was not what I was looking for, I didn't get it, and I put it away.

Dr. Schnarch has a totally different way of looking at intimacy problems in marriages, turning things around as to which one is actually "low desire" and "high desire", for example. When I had read some other things and was looking at life from less of a conflict resolution viewpoint, I was able to read both his books and appreciate them. Conflict resolution comprises most of relationship literature, including Schnarch. His biggest shortcoming is his inability to express his ethos in simple, concrete terms, the way Dr. Harley can. He uses terms which he coins, often without elaborating or even defining what he means.

Also, Schnarch is mostly focused on sexual and intimacy issues.
Harley believes in taking care of the other parts of marriage, and then the sexual part will take care of itself. I don't know about that, but he is right in that you have to fix the other parts before you can hope to really achieve sexual intimacy.

I have not read the book which made Dr. Schnarch's reputation, the very academic, "The Sexual Crucible", which is expensive, and has to be ordered. At this time, I have no interest in it.

So does this make this behavior the defacto standard?
When will you be dealing with the wounds from your FOO? Way back you made reference to issues with your father, are these being dealt with?
If you did not know this is not a healthy situation for a relationship to flourish. How do I know? I am battling a similar issue.
It has been made very clear to me this is a barrier to relational intimacy. If one of the partners in the relationship needs this then it needs to be dealt with.
It is never too late to change. When we stop changing we are dead.



This helped restore your relationship initially.
1) Can giving out be sustained?
2) Can you get joy from giving?
3) What are you doing about the depression symptoms?


Why is this hard for him?
My suspicion is he has in no way recovered - he has just covered up from the A. His confidence is likely lower than you can imagine. If you understand only one thing and it is this - That is why I have been so persistent in you showing him he is desirable for SF with you. This will likely take at least two years for him to get over (if you are looking for an estimated time-line) Your relationship went through a ripping apart, that is like open heart surgery. I think your husband is nervous of stepping on relationship landmines and getting his other leg blown off.

How do you plan on dealing with the depression?????
I sense you are suffering from it and that is not helping your relationship issues. Depression is the ugly dragon that never goes away, it zaps your energy, promotes stinky thinking, difficult to concentrate and make decisions, low mood.....You first need to resolve the issues within yourself, then perhaps you will have a platform from which to work on your marriage relationship. Can you love someone else if you do not first love yourself? You can dabble with the first aid kit (reading books) but I think you need to see about relationship surgery (counseling).

1) Are you able to put together a plan for recovery?
2) Do you think you will be able to do this by yourself?
3) Your relationship has gone through an emotional car wreck, you and your husband are still the walking wounded, are you willing to go see the doctor?

This is hard work and you have done very well Nowis. Don't become discouraged when things do not get resolved quickly. It took a few years to get to this point and will likely take some time to work out the kinks.

Good Luck and God Bless you and your family.

Amen BCB,

Well said.

God Bless,

JL

BCB


I was told that the way to dealing with my issues with my parents was forgiveness. So, I worked on forgiveness in order that I could let go of the 'pain and hurt'. I understand that forgiveness is often an ongoing process. The forgiveness is mainly about release for me. I don't believe I've achieved 'release' where my father is concerned but perhaps one day.

I was also told that happiness comes from within. I had to make Myself happy. Other people cannot make you happy or do it for you. So, I look to myself first.

I was also told that it was about 'self-soothing'. Doing the things that make me feel good about me. Taking perhaps any childhood memories that were good and trying to self-soothe in that way. Eg. I remember bathtime. I loved bathtime because my Mum used to pay attention to me then, also combing my hair.

I enjoyed being outside because you could 'breathe'. I also loved singing a lot and enjoyed being in the choir at church. I loved reading, it was a marvelous escape. So I was told to get into music, get into reading, get outside and get creative. Do all these things in order to connect with myself and other people. So, I do those things where I can.

So, that's what I remember. I don't know if there are any other 'therapies' out there for me but help is what is needed for our marriage.



My H took the morning off to be with me and we went for a walk on the beach. He says he is sad about the anti-depressants but if I feel I need them then I should go and get them. I hear his disappointment and doubt and it feeds my own. I know I have to get past this and get on with it.

1. I don't know. In my case it's flagging but maybe I shouldn't be.
2. Yes, you can get joy from giving.
3. Go for a walk, read, get outside, interact with other people, get pills!



So, I ask him about this. He says "call me weird but I honestly don't concern myself with happened. It happened and I love you. Our problems with SF go back before then and you are still having problems. I don't know how to make things better for you. You seem to still need help and I will help you if you tell me what you need". (Paraphrased). I said I will get the help and the pills but WE need to work on this marriage. I want to but you have to start telling me how you feel and what you need, not focusing on me all the time. I understand that a man wants to fix things, and my H always wants to fix me, it's how he is. Years later, it's still the same. It's how he operates. It makes him seem fatherly to me and I don't want him as a father. He said that a couple of marriage counselors had said he was co-dependent?!? Honestly, I'm confused as to what I may need too. We seem to have made a right royal mess but neither of us can piece anything together.



1. For the marriage or for me? For the marriage, not really. Keep reading and doing Dr Harley right? Get my H on board.
2. No.
3. The doctor can help with the pills right? but can't help with anything else.

Thank you BCB.

Called Doctor - going to see her Friday afternoon for medication. She said it was probably the best thing for me. I'm done.

There is no shame in taking anti depressants to help get over a rough spot. But the anti depressants are only part of the solution. You also need to combine it with CBT cognitive behavioural therapy.

You sound to me like you do have depression. This is a major impediment to your relationship and building a marriage. Talk to your Dr. about Cipralex as it has very few side effects (especially in the SF department) Depression is no trivial matter. You may need to adjust your dosage but you should start to see your mood lift in two to six weeks.

My heart goes out to you. You are sounding forlorn and discouraged. I think this is the depression talking. It does get better if you follow the prescribed treatment.

Try and do something you enjoy every day. Are you able to feel enjoyment?

I imagine your H is codependent and much of his happiness is dependent on you being happy. He probably feels like it is his job to make you feel happy and you probably feel like it is too much responsibility on you. He is trying to please you to feel validated and you feel crumby because your mood is low.

Just keep putting one foot in front of the other. Don't expect too much from yourself or your family right now. Just be.

And when it gets to be too much cry out to God and give him your problems - he will be up all night anyway.

Good luck and God bless you and your family. I'm praying for you. And for the rest of the believers on the sight who read this post please say a prayer for Nowisthemoment.

In my opinion (without knowing the details) my gut is telling me this issue may be causing you pain and inhibiting your growth as a person. Forgiveness is part of the process, but if you do not feel release you still have some work to do. You need to be set free.


Are you still doing this? If not why not?
I recently read an article that the body actually changes physiologically when singing in a choir, endorphins are released that help us. This may be something you NEED at this time. Especially if you can find some sisters to pray with you. Prayer is not just a tradition, or ritual, it is an important and healing activity we need to incorporate to help us in this crazy life on earth.


It is time to go back to marriage counseling. Neither one of you is going to be able to resolve the issues on your own. I assume you take your car to a mechanic don't you? Sometimes we need a relationship mechanic. Someone to help us untangle to ball of twine we have woven into our relationship. You are right H has to get out of the fix it mode, but he cannot until he feels comfortable with the person (MC) and the process that will lead to resolution.

It might be worthwhile waiting until the AD's kick in as you are in a battle with your mood right now and that is going to take a lot of your energy right now.

God Bless you and your family

Anyone know of any good MCs in So Cal?

Thanks for all you shared BCB. I'm grateful for your encouragement and insight - it is appreciated more than you know.

Saw the Doctor this afternoon. We talked a little more and I came away with a low dose prescription for cymbalta. In addition, a referral to see a Doctor of Sexual Medicine....!! LOL. I can't believe it really even exists. So, I have to go to at least see what it's all about.

I'm honestly asking myself what the heck I'm doing here?!?

I've seen a lot of examples of people working with medical experts in sexual activity. Both physical and psychological. Nearly every one I've ever learned about swore up and down about how much of a difference it made in their lives.

Good luck!

What you are doing here is seeking a solution to a problem that is affecting your marriage and the quality of your life. It is uncomfortable because it is different and new. The old methods are not working so then you have to explore what is broken and try to fix it. If things don't change then things will stay the same. Staying the same is not an option if you are going to get to the "ROOT" of why you are feeling the way you do.

Good for you for taking action. Who knows if this will be the answer but as my pastor told me God steers a moving ship.

As you can see cat has heard of good results in this area.

And by the way I think this is only your first port of call on your journey to health. As they say when we stop changing we are dead.

God Bless you and your family.

I think you have been misinformed. Those who 'forgive' often mean they have just given up dealing with it and have decided they just have to move on. In no way does that eradicate your pain and change your compulsions around the problem.

I may be wrong, but I believe I learned that you will first have to go through the stages of death. By that I mean, when you are faced with a bad situation, there are stages you go through.

The stages Kubler-Ross identified are:

Denial (this isn't happening to me!)
Anger (why is this happening to me?)
Bargaining (I promise I'll be a better person if...)
Depression (I don't care anymore)
Acceptance (I'm ready for whatever comes)

It works for many things besides a death. But the most important stage, IMO, is anger. You have a right to be angry. Denying that means you're stuffing your feelings. Unhealthy on every level. Be mad. At what you have gone through, people you've been stuck with, issues you've endured. Whatever the situation, you have to accept your self-worth (anger at it) to be able to move on.