Cat

When I think about my Dad I feel immense rejection, the painful hurt of that followed by anger, then just plain hurt followed by a longing for him to want me. Just give me a sign but oh well. I don't dwell on it for very long it's horrible. I honestly try not to bother with it. It's better just to try and forget about it.

I'm not sure how, if any way at all, that this has a bearing on my marriage though.

BCB

When do you leave? Will you have to maintain 'radio silence'? How's your heart these days? Your marriage? Turned any corners?

I hope when the medication kicks in I will be able to get back on track. Right now I feel like I'm kidding myself. That I'm trying to convince myself of something that may, quite frankly, never work. Perhaps it's my depressive state that is talking. This constant working at stuff takes it's toll. Can you tell my why my H manages, throughout our whole married life, coast by on those loving feelings. Why he doesn't have to 'decide' to love me. Make the effort, fake it, whatever. I'm I just generally defective and he is normal? He doesn't have to get up and decide to love me, he just does. He doesn't have to work at finding things nice about me, he just does. Is it that he loves me and I don't love him? Is it that I'm not really capable of loving anybody?

I feel under even more pressure now because I feel a failure. Yet again, he's having to accommodate me. Allow for me. Put up with me. He loves me so he will do anything. Why didn't I get those loving feelings?

If you've read my posts, you'll know that I am a big follower of investigating your FOO issues. They dictate EVERYTHING you do. How could they not?!

You feel rejection from your father; you DO dwell on it. Admit it. All your life is based around wanting to avoid rejection, wanting to receive affirmation, wanting to be praised, wanting to know that you are worth something and valued. Especially by your father, who to a female is the single most important person in their lives.

I'm sorry but you really have to deal with this. With a qualified psychologist, who can get you to the point where you acknowledge what happened, get mad at him for not being the biggest, best father he could be and being selfish or whatever he was, and having a daughter he didn't respect. He owes you an apology for not being there for you. You may never get it; that is why you need therapy to deal with it.

Pretending it's not affecting you will only get you into more trouble on the road to salvation.

Cat

So when I do have love in my life in the form of my H, is the pain of my relationship with my father the reason I don't accept the love from my H? The reason I don't understand, accept or value it? Don't feel it so much? I know that sounds simplistic but is that it, sort of?

Guess I've got to go 'back there'. No avoiding it.

Will read your posts.

Thanks

Hon, there is SO much info out there about FOO and how it affects your life. Please DO go start reading about it. You will be amazed at how much it changes things. One book, Emotional Alchemy, talks about how your brain programs responses to your home life that work, and create 'shortcuts' to those responses that you use in adulthood.

But they aren't applicable in adulthood, are they? You should be paying attention to what you needed as a child. You still need it. If your dad left your mom every time he got mad, you will be afraid of angering your H - you'll be expecting him to leave just like your dad did. Get it?

Wow, really? I've never thought about it in this way. I guess it's true that I still need things now. I've always thought that it's immature and unrealistic to have these needs and longings after all these years and to want them fulfilled. Having said that, I am sure I play some of these needs out with my H.

We went out for dinner tonight and broke the cardinal rule of not talking about the relationship. We are back and the gulf is there. I don't know how much we can take right now. This is demoralizing and tiring.

Sorry to whine, whine, whine.

Will do better tomorrow.

Cat I believe we are very much in agreement here. Thank you for your post. After reading your post I realize I did not explain myself very well. Forgiveness is part of the process, but we still have the other issues to resolve such as what you eloquently listed.

I would be willing to put money on it. Please do yourself a favour and get an understanding about depression. I am not kidding about it being the untamed dragon. It is debilitating. It is horrible, relentless, miserable, discouraging, life sucking, and depressing. This is a serious illness and you need to learn how to manage it. Yes Nowisthemoment it is affecting you. It is controlling how you feel. It is not trivial, it is not easily brushed off.

You and your family need to learn how to manage depression in the family. Did I mention Depression is not a trivial matter?

Regarding my traveling I will be starting in December so I will be off the air for periods of time. I will be checking in occasionally when I have internet access.

My heart is doing better. I am learning how to connect my head and my heart. I am learning how to connect with my emotions. And I continue to learn.

On the issue of my relationship, I continue to Plan A my wife. I have been dating her lately and we have been having a good time together. She is no longer seeing OM (it think she finally figured out he is a schnook). She tells me she is not interested in anyone else. If I read the situation correctly, she may be willing to look at reconciliation at some point. We both have a lot of work to do.

Perhaps I may be able to offer you some insight into how your H feels about you. I "still love my W" even though we have been through some real heartbreak lately. It would be easier if I could just walk away, but I can't for several reasons. The biggest reason is I can't explain why. I still get kind of a flutter in my heart, a quickening of my breath when I see her. I have been married to her for 31 years and that is no trivial thing. We have a lot of history together, some of it good, some challenging, but it was together, we share that time. The other issue is I stood before God, relatives, and friends and made a promise to be married. I keep my promises, that is just the way I am. It will have to be drastically clear, and no hope left, before I can ever consider recanting my promise.

As far as turning a corner goes I have just celebrated 1 week off my depression medication. Now that I am no longer in my job (It had a far greater impact on me than I realized, the young fellow who took over from me is looking at taking stress leave - and that is 6 months after I left - some corporations are really burning their people out)I am feeling MUCH better. I am looking forward to the learning opportunities I will be participating in over the next 6 months.

I see that Cat is starting to post to you. I think this is a very fortunate turn of events for you. I have read some of her posts and I think she has a lot of valuable counsel for you regarding Family of origin issues. I think she is bang on about these issues still impacting you and how you perceive the world. It is through the lenses of our childhood that we develop our perceptions of the world we live in. We do not have to be stuck there, we can change, but first we need to understand what it is we are dealing with; look at the potential solutions; see if we can work toward a healthier future.

In my previous posts I suggested for you to get your Depression managed before working on your marriage. Your Depression needs to be managed before you will be able to effectively do anything well relationally. If not you will just be going through the motions. Depression can be destructive, but it can be managed, and there is hope if you don't ignore it, it does not just go away. Medication is part of the picture, CBT Cognitive Behavioural Therapy is also part of the picture.

One of the things that I found most helpful is my relationship with Christ. There were days when I felt like I could not continue on any longer, I was desperate. Depression drove me to my knees, I had no resources left within me, and I cried out in prayer. For me my spiritual walk was an integral part of my healing. I had to learn to lean on God. Max Lucado in his book Gods gentle thunder states that God will stop at nothing to get our attention, and that was true in my case. I had exhausted all of my options. I am so thankful that God answered my prayers. Even though I am going through a difficult time with my marriage (some of the issues are a result of my depression) I am blessed with a peace that I cannot explain, and I have all the confidence that He is in control of my situation and things will work out just the way they should.

In a course on how to manage depression they encouraged us to develop our spirituality. I would encourage you to look at this for your own health. Perhaps you might benefit in developing the habit of prayer (which can be just like a conversation with a good friend). I also had to learn how much God loves me (and I am still learning - I struggle with FOO issues too). But God tells us we will find strength in our weakness.

There was a time when I felt reluctant to be open about talking about God and such matters, but after the amazing difference he has made in my life I feel I would be doing a disservice to you if I did not share what a difference it has made in my life. Prayer works.

One last thing. I know you are not feeling well. But I would encourage you to be receptive to your H in SF. This will be for him. This is you giving to him. I know you may not have the feelings about this right now. You may not have the feelings for a while, cause you have got some work ahead of you, this is to encourage / satisfy him in the relationship. I am not sure if you realize how important SF is to some of us guys, and I have a sense it is important to your H. He has stuck by your side through some pretty dark times, think of this, and show your love for him in this way.

Hang in there Nowisthemoment as it does get better. You are gaining more awareness each day on what it is you need to do to establish a happy and healthy life.

May God Bless you and your family

Cat

You have a lot of posts. Can you direct me to specific ones that may be helpful for me to read?

Thank you.

BCB

I started the medication yesterday and the Doctor says it should kick in in about 2 weeks. So I can stop chewing up about that. Congrats on your first week without anti-d's. I know it's not trivial I just didn't expect it to show up now. I haven't been depressed in years and feel angry and pathetic about it and the timing is crappy!

I am encouraged about your situation and the results that you have had. Does your wife seem like a different person to you now or are you seeing things about her that you'd forgotten? What does she respond to the most in you? The changes she can see or the person she first met? I wonder about this with my H and I. In asking for a date night I wanted us to view each other differently. No relationship talk, kid talk, house, etc. It is quite an eye opener to see if you have stuff in common anymore or whether you like doing the same things.

So, you're still off in December...... changing times......It will be good to hear from you and to know how you are and what you are learning. You have been such a real encouragement. Not just do as I say, but do as I do.



The talking to God as a friend (which I think Ears Open suggested a while back too) is good. I do it but inconsistently. It is very slowly, slowly with 'God stuff'.



We've managed it once since the false starts. This may be too much information but unfortunately I was emotionally disconnected and couldn't participate (if you get my drift). I was there in body but nothing else. This is what happens to me. It is a kind of going through the motions but unfortunately is makes me feel pretty yucky and bad for my H. This is the kind of sex that I don't like and have done over the years on and off. I guess in a couple of weeks I should be back on it in every sense. Enough said.

All in all I'm staying afloat with the handholding from my H, the dependency and lightheartedness of our children, my job working at the studio and the help from you and others on this board.

News flash. Depression will show up at the most inopportune times. When things are going poorly you can almost expect it to rear its ugly head. In therapy you will learn to stop being so down on yourself. I know you are feeling pathetic. This is where you can take the opportunity to learn how to take one day at a time. Don't be too hard on yourself and maybe you need to lower the bar a little. Do you have perfectionist tendencies?


Depression. Right now you cannot trust your feelings. Your emotions are in upheaval, and are not reliable. This is where discipline comes in (doing what you know is right even if you don't feel like it). I know this is very difficult for you right now. Keep telling your H how much you appreciate him. Tell him that you appreciate him sticking by you especially when you don't fell well. Depression is an illness that keeps on giving.

Things are different. I feel our relationship is more fragile now. I feel less certain when I am around her and I do not take what she says at face value, I am looking for the hidden meaning in her words. In many ways I find the uncertainty makes it feel like a first date, wondering if the person will even like you. She tells me what she likes about me is the security I represent. It is a bit of a dichotomy as security is sometimes not perceived as very exciting. But I think she is beginning to respect the fact that I am determined to become the best I can be and be the man God wants me to be. I sense she is wanting things to work out between us.



You are in good company. We have developed into a nation of independent people, it is not very popular to be reliant on God, we think it somehow shows we are weak. From my experience we often do not rely on God until we have exhausted all of the other options.

For me prayer has been transformed from a matter of ritual to a lifeline. My relationship with God has changed from one of intellectual awareness to reliance and trust. Crisis can be a motivator to pry us off the comfort we naturally desire. If we are comfortable we are less likely to seek. My separation, is without a doubt, the most horrendous issue I have had to face in my life. My life has been turned upside down. Everything I had worked for, my hopes and dreams, disappeared in an instant. Yet in the midst of the turmoil I have learned that God answers prayers. God has blessed me with a sense of peace, and I have a confidence that He is in control and will work things out for the best. Prior to my separation, I was a good corporate soldier, working my way up the corporate ladder, my hope, security and identity was wrapped up in my job, in my ability to provide. It all changed.

If I can offer some help,hope, and comfort to others who are trying to make sense out of what they are going through then I feel I have been able to repay somewhat, the help I received in my darkest hours. Life can wear us down, situations can wound us, sometimes we get knocked down and feel like we can never get up, how wonderful it is to look up and see someone there with their hand out, willing to help us get up. We are all weak at different times in our lives, and one thing we can do is offer a hand up, just like those who have offered us a hand up when we needed it.

So as you get better, you will learn valuable lessons. You will learn how to deal with what ails you. And then you will be able to offer a hand up to those who have stumbled in life. Your agony, and what you have been forced to learn to survive will be turned into strength, and wisdom. You can then pass on what you have learned. You will be able to encourage another because you will know how to help them because you have walked the down the road they are just starting on. That is what we are called to do. We are to show kindness to strangers. That is the blessing and the mystery of this wonderful Christian community.

NOW is the moment. You are on the path. You are going to heal. You are going to get better. You are going to learn. You really have little choice. You cannot stand the place where you are right now. Your discontent will propel you forward. In the scripture we are told "If you seek, you will find". Ask God for guidance and pray. God is in the miracle business.

God Bless you and your family

I'll have to think about what posts would help. I went back and reread your first couple pages, and your FOO most definitely is affecting your M. Don't trust men, don't be affectionate, pick safe even when you don't want it...I bet that is the key to everything. You picked someone you feel you shouldn't have settled for, just to do right by your mom. You think - despite what you may feel about him - that he was just settling. That you should have gotten more out of life. In the back of your mind, you've always wondered what you could have had if you didn't play it safe. Therefore, you'll never really want him. Even if you do. Because you are sabotaging your own happiness based on what your dad did, and how your mom coped.

The best thing you can do, IMO, is go to therapy and learn to detach your childhood needs from what you feel for your H.

Cat

When I read what you posted last night it's as though my heart stopped. Those few lines made everything spin for me. The first thing I thought was that I've got to stop posting here it's becoming too taxing. I feel like there's the biggest crack right down the center of my marriage and I made it. I told my H that he should go and find someone that can love him back passionately and it was effort all the time. All the pieces are on the floor again and I have to put everything back together and I don't know how. I suppose I do sabotaged my own happiness - I'm not even aware that I do it - it's how I've lived.



So here I go again. I'll contact my therapist again today and tell her this is what I feel I need to do. At least it's specific and we can get straight to the point.

Good job on concentrating on that with IC. I agree, it helps if you have a focus.

But I didn't mean to tell you that you can't be happy and satisfied with your H. I meant that your dysfunctional MIND is telling you that you can't be happy with him. All because of your built-in grudges about childhood and what your parents did to you. "I deserve more!"

It sounds like you would be making a huge mistake to leave this man. It's self-sabotage, and you are going to regret leaving him. You'll likely end up with a few jerks before - IF - you find someone else that you're a fit with. The grass really isn't greener out there.

Please reconsider this. Please don't make any decisions until you've been through several months of therapy. You'll only regret it.

Cat

I won't be leaving my H anytime soon. I am sometimes overwhelmed with it all and it feels like things have been out of wack my whole life.

I do have the inner determination to carry on. To love my H and to have the marriage we both want.

If I know something, it is that the grass is not greener on the other side. Through divorced friends, my experience of meeting other guys. My H is a good guy and I want the ultimate relationship with him.

Nowis,

I have been traveling and reading what everyone else is posting to you. It has been very interesting and I think you have been offered some great advice. Cat and BCB have both really offered you some very deep things to consider.

You said something about your H that kind of struck me
He is a good guy huh???

He is not a good father? He is not a good and kind man? He is not a man capable of deep love? He is not a forgiving man? He is not a dependable man? He is not a man that tries to take good care of his family? He is not the father of your children? He is not your husband? He is not YOUR choice for a mate?

All he is, is a good guy. How sad, he could not be and is not all of these other things.

Would you please describe what "the ultimate relationship" means to you? I think it is important that you carefully and accurately describe what you want and think a good relationship means. You cannot make a plan to obtain it until you have defined it carefully.

I agree with the others, depression does seem to be a player in this situation as well as the FOO issues. I am glad you are on anti-D's and I am glad you are going back to your counselor. My bet is that you will be more precise in what you want your counselor to help you address.

God Bless,

JL

JL

He is a good guy, great guy, perfect guy, the best guy in the world. I wasn't meaning anything less or more by using the word good. The ultimate relationship with him is one where I am fully present in it. Where I am not dealing with my issues, where I am not carrying around hang ups, not constantly having to work at stuff. Where I can love love him from a place of freedom and peace - my ultimate goal.

Nowis,

My point is simply, every time you describe him as a "good guy" you diminish who he is and what he means to you. You could love him from a place of freedom and peace IF you decide to forgive him his failures and acknowledge his successes and strengths.

It really is that simple, but it is not easy.

Your H wants to be your hero. He wants to be a man you respect, need, and love. He wants you happy. Does he do it perfectly, probably not. Is even just "great" at it, no probably not. What you don't see yet is that he has his own issues he deals with, he has his hang ups, and he has stuff that needs work.

My bet is that he compartmentalizes these things so that he can function. My bet is that you are not compartmentalizing these things so that you don't function at a level you want to.

Nowis, I am a strong believer in the power of words and images, which is strange because my profession is very mathematical and I don't have to deal with people all that much.

If you don't voice what you need, admire, enjoy, and take from your H, you will not ever really appreciate him. Part of being "present" in a situation is speaking of it, describing it, experiencing it, and appreciating it...even with flaws.

Further, with humans there is a nonlinear feedback. If he knows you enjoy him, appreciate him, respect him, he will in turn try to do even more to earn YOUR respect and love. You have a lot of control in this situation.You just don't know how to use it.

Before a close let me tell you a joke.

These two old cowboys are sitting on the railing of a fence, with their boots hook over a lower railing. They are watching a bull riding competition at the rodeo. There is this guy sitting on the bull wrapping and rewrapping the lead ever tighter around his gloved left hand. His friend is steadying him and the bull in the pen.

The friend says, " Ok, you have enough points that if you just stay on that bull 8 seconds you win the championship, it really is that simple."

One old cowboy turns to the other and says, "That young fellar is about to learn the difference between simple and easy."

What you may have to learn Nowis, is how to make the "simple" into something that is "easy". In my mind it starts with accepting and forgiving your H for his failures.

Odd that I am saying that isn't it? You would think I would be pushing you to seek his forgiveness. I wonder why I am doing it this way? :RollieEyes:

God Bless,

JL

Nowis what I love about reading posts to you from JL is I learn a little bit more about myself every time I read.I think JL is analytical and we are getting the benefit of his analytical nature.

What I am trying to say to you is JL has got inside the heads of the majority of the males in North America and offered you what motivates them, on a silver platter.

If you ever want to make your husband happy, memorize this last post of JL's. Post it on your wall. Read it every day. Every day do one thing JL describes in this post and you will be building a happy marriage. This is pure gold.


And when this does not happen we consider ourselves a failure. And the downward spiral begins. Who wants to be confronted/reminded that they are a failure. But when it does happen we feel like we can move mountains, and we would for our wife.

I still think JL should write a book.

BCB,

You are too kind, but I am glad I am helping you and hope that something I have said is of help to Nowis as well.

God Bless,

JL