JL
I have learned a lot from your posts. Thank you for all the time you take to offer your insights to me and the other posters. I am very thankful for the wisdom you so articulately offer. As much as I wished I never had to use this site, I have learned a lot, and I continue to learn, and you have been a major contributor to my education. I hope one day I will be able to encourage and inspire the way you and many of the other seasoned posters do.

God Bless you.

JL
.....smiles..... thanks for the pertinent joke. Why are the seemingly simplest things the hardest. Simple yes, easy?



So giving to him each day by thinking of positive things about him, saying positive things, giving to him (SF) will help me with forgiving his failures and acknowledge his successes and strengths?


It's that simple? Maybe I don't know how to communicate effectively. I think I am quick to say if I don't feel good about certain things but I don't really voice my thoughts on what I think about my H, good or bad. I don't want to say a lot of the time because if I voice dissatisfaction I will make him feel like I am, yet again, unhappy with the relationship. On the other hand, I know that often I am silent in the area of praise or affection. I just don't say much. I've often thought that because I don't feel it then saying it is dishonesty and insincere - if you get what I mean.



How do I use it? Like stated above?



Forgiveness is more for my freedom than his right?

How do you really feel about your husband?

It sounds like he is a nice guy but you have no passion for him. You do not admire him nor are you in love with him.

If you just now met your husband (and were not married to him) would you date him once? Would you date him a few times and then be done with him?

If you dated him for six months would you keep on dating him? Would you even go as far as marrying him?

Is this really the man for you?

Sk

Yes, perhaps, I've no idea.



I have no idea.

However, we have just begun to have a date night. It means a lot to me to get to know my H. We make a conscious effort not to fall into conversation on the usual subjects; children, house, jobs, etc. Last night was our second date night and, you know what, he made me laugh a lot. That was surprising. Despite all that's going on and being tired. We drank a glass of caipirinha and reminisced about our travels around Brazil 17 years ago. We came home slept and then made love. It was really good for us.



23 years later, he must be. Neither of us want to be with anyone else.

So, this is what's happening.

I am on the meds and feeling, generally, okay. Don't know if they are working or not.

We are working on the date night. Last date night he made me laugh - perhaps because he was a little tipsy but it was the best couple of hours in the last 3 years.

I am still puzzled that at times in the marriage my H has absolutely nothing to say to me. He's known me for years, knows what I like, has watched me, heard me, but has nothing to say.

Is this because he is unhappy with me? I share with him how I feel and he wants to fix something or give me a solution, but he doesn't really tell me how he feels about things. His needs are simple right? He doesn't seem to have passions or desires for anything. For me and for sex and sailing?!?

I'm trying to not go into the mode of fixing myself. I am screwed up, I am messed up, I have it wrong. That's how I feel. So I'm trying to quiet myself and rely on him to help me. So I can accept any encouragement and lean on him emotionally. However, our relationship becomes silent!?!

Yes, he is a great provider, he is consistent, reliable and always there but I notice a huge gap emotionally. Sometimes I don't know who he is. Perhaps this is what the date night is for. I know I have had to work on respecting him and liking who he is. Perhaps I don't really know who he is? Does this sound bonkers?

I asked him if, over the years, I have been the one that drove the relationship? Influenced the relationship? Set the tone for the relationship? Talked too much? Always unhappy? Who is he? He said nothing. How do I get on a heartfelt passionate level with him?

Can anyone make sense of this or do I just need to get more sleep? This is hard. Is this part of the work... getting to know who he really is?

Nowis, now that you're addressing the depression, what do you think about calling the Harleys? I really believe that the MB concepts can really bring back the marriage that you are looking for.

You do? I'm not sure if my H would be up for that. In fact, I know he wouldn't. He doesn't want to do anymore marriage counseling - he thinks they are a waste of time and money. I honestly believe he's too used to the concept that it is me that is unhappy, me that has the issues and me that needs fixing. He doesn't want to leave his comfort zone at all. The date night was an issue (which really surprised me) and it's because he had to come out of his comfort zone for that. I realize, if I read it correctly, how much he is content to be in the position of passivity. What does this mean? I guess I only ever realize it when I stop everything. I'm usually the one 'going for it' in the relationship and he doesn't care either way.

You know what also bothers me, what is always in the back of mind and in my thoughts? I don't really have a right to ask him for anything. I don't have the right to keep saying I want a better relationship because I was the one who had the affair. I was the one that hurt, betrayed and lied to him. He has forgiven me but I don't want this to be the straw that breaks the camel's back. However, I don't want a mediocre marriage either. Perhaps I should stop wanting and just be satisfied. Perhaps I want too much, perhaps I don't love him enough?

Nowis, what about calling, just you? They can tell you how to save your marriage. You don't need to call together right away. They will tell you if he needs to participate, too, and how to explain that to him.

Nowis,

Darned I have another joke for you, but it is a bit off color, and darned if I can remember all of the parts of it. this getting older is highly overrated.

Let me give you lesson 101 about men. We have been trained to NOT talk about our feelings. We have been trained to ignore many things to accomplish our goals. And we have been trained to problem solve (that would be fix things in your world). Virtually all men get this training at some level or another.

You stated Short answer very unlikely. You don't seem to understand what us guys hear. When you come to him and share your feelings, he(me) interpret that as there is something wrong, and more than likely he(I) are at fault. That means HE (I) must get on it and fix it because we don't want to mess up, and we don't want you unhappy.

You hear that you are sharing your feelings, he hears you are hurting and he is likely the cause, so he needs to fix it. Men are far deeper than you seem to realize but we have a weakness and that is we don't discuss "feelings" unless we are in real real trouble OR we are very happy.

Now this can be changed, but you have to convince him that you sharing our feelings is really just that "sharing", it is not a request for help, it is not because he messed up, it is not something he has to fix. Women seem to live in the world of feelings more than men do. I am in my 60's and I still don't understand it/women.


Oh MY DEAR WOMAN. This statement just rings my chimes. From your description of him he has ONE big passion...YOU and your family. He forgave your affair, he has worked on himself. he goes on date nights with you. And you don't recognize that his passion is you followed by being a good father. He works to support you, family, home etc. He has a passion DEAR LADY, you just don't recognize it and he does not verbalize it, he shows it by his actions.

I will also say a lot of guys like MB because it is organized, it is not babble, it does not focus on how you feel about your parents. It is about actions, things that can be done to help the marriage.Men like things that can be done rather than talked about. Interestingly, even the Harley's call what they do "coaching" not counseling because they coach a couple about actions.

If you can find it find the book Men Made Simple by "Oh". it is sort of a12 step approach for dealing with men. It is a quick read, but one part you should really pay attention to. It is about talking about feelings. Her comment is that women start from a young age talking about feelings and thus have developed vocabulary and phrasing that adequately expresses a full range of feeling. Men don't grow up that way, so when questioned about their feelings other than "I like it or IT sucks", they are berift of vocab and phrasing. Thus why they are ondering their response the W often gets exasperated and either asks a followup question or just moves on. Her recommendation is ask a question an be prepard to sit there for many minutes and let him answer.

You both need an adjustment in perspective. But, I know this much and I have said this to you before. You have no idea how uncertain he is about himself. So he does the only thing he knows how to do...work, try to make you happy, and be a Dad. You don't have a clue how deep his fear is right now.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

No I don't JL. What is he fearful about? Stepping out of his comfort zone?

I don't know how to adjust my perspective. What/how should I be viewing him and our situation?

Thank you

Your husband is a good person, but it seems like.....

You are trying so hard to like him....but you don't really like him.

You are trying really hard to be attracted to him...but you are not really attracted to him.

You are trying really hard to feel like you are in love with him.....but you really are not in love with him.

You are trying real hard to want sex with him....but you really dont enjoy or want sex with him.

You are trying really hard but it is not cutting it.

AMEN JL AMEN




Part of the program is PROVIDE and PROTECT. HE IS WORKING BECAUSE OF YOU. So Praise him and appreciate him, encourage him, and then encourage him and then praise him again, and thank him. You will be establishing a foundation to help eliminate the risk of venturing into sharing feelings. We are programmed to FIX, be strategic, think ahead, and solve problems. Why do you think so many guys like sports? It is because it involves action, strategy, skill, ability, determination, and a winning attitude. And you are too busy to talk about feelings.

For the most part I think men rely on women to complete us. Feelings are a minefield. Often we rely on women to help us translate emotions and express them. Just like JL says.

I just realized you might be assuming that the average guy has an emotional language. Stop that. Feelings are something we have never been encouraged to express,(it says so right on page 1 of the guy handbook) except in the last 10 years for me. I feel like I am standing naked in the middle of town with no map, I don't recognize the streets, and everyone speaks a foreign language. HELP!!! I am lost, is there a translator near by? I am learning because I have to, but I am no means fluent like women appear to be. And I am having difficulty recognizing my own feelings, and now I am expected to recognize yours? YIKES!!!! Scary stuff.

Reread JL's post. But I am so encouraged by your response. You are sounding just like a guy, confronted with having to deal with feelings. I vote with JL, I don't understand women either.


You bet your bippy he has fear. My wife is in an Affair because I did not meet her needs. Our relationship is on a collision course. I do not want to crash but I cannot find the brakes to stop this disaster in the making. He is afraid of failing. He is afraid of disappointing you!!!! He already has some pretty strong proof that he already has. He does not want it to happen again. He is living in fear that if he cannot step up to the mark you will be disappointed in him and you will go looking elsewhere because he is such a looser and a failure. Despite his best efforts he cannot control how you feel.

When you are down he will be anxious (likely). When you are happy he will be happy because he is winning, he is succeeding, he is fulfilling his purpose, and his desire.


There it is. No big mystery. That is just how many us feel. Well at least I feel the same way JL does on this. Reassure him, let him know you will be sticking around if he is clumsy on trying to express himself in this foreign language you are forcing us to learn. Coach him into knowing this is just conversational practice. Ask him to just play along with you because it is important to you, and you are trying help him understand your language.

Regarding his comfort zone - that just speaks of his insecurity. He will have to work on his own insecurities. He likes to stay in the comfort zone because it is predictable, no surprises. Comfort zone is relaxing. Think of the sitcom Cheers - where everyone knows your name - everything is the same - it is predictable, Friends, community, what goes on. Date night is unpredictable. By the way did JL mention you don't know how deep his fear is right now? It might be worthwhile trying to find out so you can comfort him regarding his insecurities (page 1 of the GUY handbook says he is not allowed to have). It is OK for us older guys to talk this way because we are close to being senile , so the GUYS will forgive us if we slip up.

We were happy drawing pictographs on the cave wall but now we have to articulate our emotions (you call this progress?)

He likely has his own cross to bear but that is for him to want to deal with, when he is ready. Right now this is about you.

Reread JLs post and ask the questions you want clarification on. I hope I have not fuzzified the declamation.

Why is it not cutting it?

What do I do?

I am seeing another Psychologist this morning for my FOO issues and I suppose everything else.

I dont think you can force love. But maybe I am wrong.

So am I trying to force it? I am working, working, working at it and the feelings are supposed to follow right? It seems the more I work at it the more down I get. I try and check my expectations and make sure they are not unrealistic and I am not expecting my H to be someone he's not.

I can only come to the conclusion that I am unreachable somehow, maybe. Either something is profoundly closed in my heart or as you seem to see, this is not love. I don't love my H.

My appointment is in a couple of hours. I told my H I where I was going this morning and he was visibly pained by it. It hurts my heart. I think I saw in that moment what his greatest fear is.... me saying the relationship is over. Right then I want to just put this whole thing down. Stop trying to fix the marriage and me and just suck it up.

Plan A is

eliminating LBs
meeting ENs
negotiating to get your needs met without LBs

I hear you working to meet his ENs, and asking for your ENs to be met without LBing. So you're right on track here. Much better than most. And getting IC to support yourself, too. BEcause it's THAT important.

I suggested reading Harleys books and calling the Harleys because you sound like you are starving for the theory underneath. Starving to understand why. I was like that, too, when I got here, which is why the MB Conepts appealed to me so much. They make sense.

I don't know if you've ever studied music? There are two parts. The practice, where you do the scales over and over until they rewire your brain in a way theat playing is effortless. Art instead of mechanics.

The other part is the theory, the understanding why. This helps you understand why you are practicing what you are practicing. And also helps you get artistic with it, instead of just playing the same scales and songs, you can add your own flourishes.



This is great practice, Nowis. Have you read the Three States of Mind in Marriage? When you're withdrawn, you don't want your H to meet your needs. What's the point, it's no use, you're probably broken, anyway. All these things that you write.

Then you do some things for him, and feel a little good about yourself. Make some deposits. Maybe you find you're going from State of Withdrawal to State Of Conflict. This is good news, nowis, that you are considering a fulfilling marriage a possibility again. Something that is worth hoping for and working towards. Not something to stomp down. You can do this!

So, I got back from the Psychologist. I'm going to see her again next week. We managed to cover a lot of ground in the hour. I felt comfortable talking with her. It's still early days. She identified quickly that I did not connect emotionally to my H in the marriage because I was a emotionally disconnected from way back in my childhood. Sooo, we shall see.

My H just called to see how it went. He told me he feels very sad and just wants this to be over one way or the other. He hopes that I will sort myself out and that I will want the relationship with him or not. It's all up to me, I see.

Nowis
It appears to me your H does love you. He is afraid of loosing you (he does call to see how you are) He is afraid of being rejected. I think this issue of being disconnected is something you can work on.

But for pity sakes chill out. Rome was not built in a day. Take a deep breath and relax a little. Processes and change take time.

Bcb, I don't understand. What specific process are you referring to?