NOwis,

I don't know if your latest post is a good thing or a bad thing. I hope it is a good thing for you and your H.

I as a rule stay away from religious discussions because I feel that religion is a very personal aspect of a human being often practiced with a group of people. Hence discussion is often just reaffirmation "that you are right and I am right" or "I am right and you are not right". Neither have anything to do with God or religious beliefs in my mind.

But, I would like to offer you this about what I experience in my life. I believe (and I emphasis believe because I cannot prove it) but I think God speaks to us through ourselves. When you pray, contemplate, seek guidance, the guidance comes from within YOU. You only hear your own voice, your own morals, your own beliefs. God speaks through YOU for YOU. I won't speak any more of this other than to say the following.

I fear that you have a deep discount of your own worth, thus you don't hear your own guidance as deeply as you can, and hopefully will in the future as you address your FOO issues. This means concepts such as love, devotion, and worth are not ones you really have much contact with, hence your issues with your H, and your own choices.

Nowis, I continue to believe, based on all you have said and worried about, that you are in fact a very good person. You can love, and you have been blessed more than you are capable of realizing at the moment. I hope there comes a time, when you do realize your blessings in life and can enjoy them, learn from them, and offer your own children the ability to see their blessings as their life unfolds.

God Bless,

JL

Nowis,

What is happening in your life. Give us an update.

God Bless,

JL

JL

It's been a long week.

My H went into meltdown. In a way I have never seen before. He, for the first time since knowing him, is digging deep within himself and is not happy about what he's finding there. We have been revisiting the affair and our whole marriage difficulties. We have realized with horrible stark reality that we have both been guilty in not being honest in the marriage. He in his overwhelming drive and need to have everything cosy and okay in the marriage has glossed over issues since day one of our marriage. We recalled a conversation that we had on our honeymoon in which he asked me why I didn't want to make love to him? I don't even know what I answered. I knew I didn't want him in that way. He then has known that we have had a relationship based on our mutual need for friendship and to escape loneliness and for comfort and security. He eventually fell in love with me. He has, however, just held on tight due to his need to make everything okay and not lose me. To be safe and secure and cosy he says even when he felt we were perhaps not right for each other.

The years went by and he continued to say I'm okay with the relationship the problem must be with you. I tried to 'fix' myself over the years. Took the blame and responsibility of a failing sex life, lack of affection, no passion. He never challenged that. He never showed up and said this is not the marriage that I want. This is not the love life that I want. He just always said he was happy (when he wasn't) but allowed me to live in a tailspin all these years thinking I was really screwed up. We were not honest. I was looking to my H to be the H I wanted and he didn't show up. He wasn't getting the wife he wanted but I didn't show up. He'd just sweep his feelings under the carpet to safeguard his quiet, neat, safe life.

He realizes now he has a real issue with not facing reality due to fear of being alone. He doesn't keep relationships with people. He doesn't have any real friends. He doesn't connect with his family. It's always been about keeping me.

So, all in all we haven't had a truly healthy relationship.

I don't know if this is going to make sense to any of you but it's crystal clear to us.

I've been spilling my guts at the Psych and she is amazingly perceptive and wise. Never met one like this before. My H and I had a joint session in which she said let's deal with the affair. My H was crying a lot and then she encouraged him to tell me how he really felt about the affair. He told me how angry he is about it. How it hurt him. The lies etc. By the end of the session he was saying that he still has hope for us but he knows he has to do the work on himself because he knows that I don't want the guy that he's been over the years.

I was scared but told the truth that I wanted to stop trying. I am tired beyond belief of trying and for what? I don't want to hope because I always do and it's deferred. I am the queen of "do better tomorrow" but I don't know if I have the last drop left. I don't know if after 23 years we can really change.

So, we are taking it day by day. The Psych recommended we go to a Retrouvaille weekend for "couples in need" as another last resort to see if it is possible that we can truly connect. Heard of it?

On another note, she says that I have a pretty good handle on my FOO issues and she says that they may have got me into this marriage but that I am aware enough of them that they probably aren't sabotaging me. It's true, that I'm not in love with my H. I love him but am not in love with him. I don't know who he truly is. I'm not falling in love with the caregiver, caretaker, quiet life seeker.

I'm sorry if this is rather scattered.

In addition, I am trying to stay connected to my feelings. I have felt numb for the most part and then terribly sad this week. She has given us both information on grief. She says we are and will be going through mourning over the relationship. She has given us to read " A Journey through Grief" by Alla Renee Bozarth.

Nowis,

I have a few things to say, but am very short on time today. Please forgive me for not addressing your post at the moment.

I see hope is all that I will say.

God Bless,

JL

Nowis,

I cannot help but feeling that you are blaming your H for wanting to love you, although he knew you did not desire him, then falling in love with you and wanting a happy home life.

Most men wish for just that. He apparently has fought hard for it, and he has had to fight his own failings and your not really caring for him. That doesn't leave a lot of time for friends would be my guess.

I really cannot imagine being in his place and KNOWING that he is not loved or desired. He must have buried alot of pain, and fear very very deeply. Do you recall me telling you that your H feared a lot of things? I think you now have a better idea of what he feared and what he has done to address that fear.

It saddens me that you think you have been trying when all along you have withheld love that you easily gave to OM. I don't see that as trying to be quite frank with you.

Your counselor thinks you have gotten over or have a handle on your FOO issues, but that does not mean they still don't influence your decisions.

Am I to take from your post that you have decided to quit trying and will seek a divorce from your H? Am I to take from this that your H facing his fears and demons, that he is no longer considered even a good husband?

What are you thinking along these lines?

God Bless,

JL

JL


(Sigh) No, I am not blaming him for wanting to love me - that's just silly. We blame each other for our dishonesty in the relationship. I take full responsibility for not having those feelings. I love him but never fell in love with him. I tried and tried. He, not getting the SF that he desired, and expressions of someone 'in love' never questioned it. Never said I'm not getting what I need because I don't believe you love me. He never said this is not how he envisioned his marriage. He admitted that it worked for him in a way because he fell in love with me but just hoped I would feel the same. I was fearful that I was messed up and didn't know how to love and he was hoping that this was the case and that I would figure something out and the loving feelings would flow. We are both to blame I should have called it a day and so should he. However, he was the one in love - so I guess it was even harder coupled with the fact he was facing his own issues of being alone etc.



I don't understand what you're getting at. He didn't have friends when I met him. Just one good one. He didn't make the effort with friendships. He says this is to do with him moving around a lot as a child. He doesn't really make the effort.

I'm not a heartless person and I do care for him a lot. I am not in love with him but I do love him.



No, I don't think you can imagine. Most people wouldn't stay - would you stay in a relationship like this? Would you have even come close to marrying that person? . He stayed with me out of fear too - not just love. I stayed out of fear and a hope that the feelings would follow. His fear is not predominantly from me and neither mine from him. We were immature and fearful. My H would rather not even have an argument or voice his opinion out of fear of not having a quiet cosy life (why was that?). We didn't show up for each other. He wasn't abused as a child and comes from loving parents - where does that behaviour come from? I wanted a guy that would show up. Did I really get love from him or did I just get a desperate needy guy who didn't want to face his fears either? Was his love a lot of the time about me or just about his own fears? I am just as guilty of not being honest and desperate to have marriage and life nothing like my parents and childhood. I didn't face my own fears. I should have and let him go a long time ago.



It was sex that I had with OM there was no love involved. Can you tell me how I withheld love from my H and what love I gave to the OM? I withheld sex for sure at times but how many more years do I keep having sex but not feel much different. I give it to him now to show him love but he doesn't want me to try anymore if I'm not feeling it in my heart. It's insulting to him. So what do you mean?



I'm at the end - just like I was at the beginning of this. I'm not finished with my H. He is deciding whether he wants to stay in the marriage also - at this point, he doesn't. He says maybe a separation is better for now then if, after he's worked on himself, we could see whether we wanted to be together again.

When do you stop trying to manufacture being in love? When is it time to stop draining each other?

Nowis, these feelings can be restored, or even created where they never were, with the MB program. What homework are you and your H doing? SF is a great step, but alone, it isn't going to cut it. IC and treating your depression are huge steps, too, but again, alone, it isn't going to cut it. What about getting into MC and getting the support and tools that you two need to restore this? Giving it a real shot, that you two never had before?

Did you ever read the Basic Concepts? What have you implemented?

Ears


Really?

We aren't doing any homework. I was doing the positive thinking. Fake it till you make it. SF. On anti-d's. We had therapy together for first time last week. Pysch advised my H to get in contact with a specific mens support group (the name escapes me now). Both of us to get in contact and stay in contact with our feelings. She said it's clear I didn't have those feelings for my H and it is rare to ever get them at this stage of our relationship. We could go to a weekend for couples in trouble to see if this will help.



Ears, what would that look like? How would it be different to any trying we've done before?

Nowis,

I am not in the best of moods today, not because of you, but personal things.

HOWEVER, love is NOT a feeling, LOVE IS AN ACTION. Because it is an action we control it, because it is an action we can bet married and promise to love our spouse for the rest of our lives because it is actions we control NOT feelings.

I think your H understood this and gave you love whether he felt love from you or not. Whether he "felt" like loving you or not.

You keep focusing on HIS failures and I am sure he is very very aware of them, particularly that the woman he married and loved does not love him back or in her heart.

Your counselor is YOUR advocate and she will tell you to do what you want and what makes you feel best. She will not necessarily tell you what is best for your marriage and certainly not what is best for your H. Please remember this while you are making decisions.

The difference now is that you know that you have failed to make your H happy as well, you know what he fears and feared, you just MIGHT see him as a human being with a lot of potential for grownth as an H and a person. He is finally voicing his feelings and that will make him address them.

The fact that you asked Strongly suggests that your FOO issues are very present in your situation.

I don't know what to advise you Nowis. I hate to see a family destroyed and it will be with your divorce. I hate to see you and your H lose what you might gain, but it is clearly your decisions that will rule the day.

I would really strongly urge you to read the articles in this site again, if you have read them before, and now if you have not.

God Bless,

JL

JL

I'm not in the best of moods either and am beyond exasperated. I'm grateful to my H for loving me but grateful isn't getting me anywhere. I have guilt about not being able to reciprocate in the same way, shame that even after everything I still don't love him any more than ever. He's a better person than me and the decision is up to him.

Thanks for writing.

Now,

Just happened to read your thread. Wow. Your story reminds me so much of my situation.

If it helps, know that I am also in a bad mood and I feel exasperated. I have never had an affair, but I can understand how it could happen.

Jenny

Nowis, it may well be rare. But when you read the basic concepts, HNHN, SAA, Love Busters books, these ideas make SO much sense. This is how we are wired, to fall in love with someone who meets our needs in the way we wanted them met. How much ahead of the game is your H, the father of your kids, who you already love and trust!


Soolee posted a great MB Concepts what does it look like in action in a nutshell:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2160076&#Post2160076

Have you two done any of this before? Used thoughtful requests, respectful persuasion with trial runs, and negotiating with your taker at the table? Spent 15 hours a week UA time doing your favorite things together?

Thanks for that Jenny

Read your post too.... what a ride! When do we get to get off?! : )

Ears

Yes, I have read through this stuff. We have read about 3 books on surviving affairs/affairs. My H isn't particularly interested in reading through the MB stuff. We were discussing that the main thing for us is honesty and openess. We haven't been this in the past and were are brutally doing this now. Not very nice.

We're not good at UA time and so even talking about the marriage isn't given priority. We've been paralyzed for a while but things have been rather shaken up this last week.

We are looking at a couples in trouble weekend through Retrouvaille but it is not until January. We're pretty raw and open right now. I see my Psych on Thursday. As much as I'd like to say we have a plan, I don't think we do apart from to get away from each other one minute and cling to each other the next.

I think I may need to get off this wild ride. It is making me dizzy. :-)

As with you, I have many abandonment issues. I also lacked a father in my life to give me a sense of stability and direction. I believe that unconsciously I married my husband to try to fill his void. Obviously, that does not make for a healthy marriage.

I feel like a failure of being a wife. Sometimes I think I would be doing him a favor if I left him. He probably deserves someone better than me. I feel that I am very damaged.

Nowis, I'm SO encouraged to hear that you're going to consider Retrovaille! I've heard it highly recommended here. You'll get reconnected while you're there, and a plan, and follow up, too.

What a gift to give your kids, for them to grow up seeing how a thriving marriage works!

I'm not understanding where the radical honesty feels brutal. Would you be comfortable clarifying? Is it given respectfully as equals aeeking to understand, or as judgement?

Ears

I haven't been honest with him. I have said things are okay when they have not been. I had little respect for H because when it came to decisions about us he would generally opt out. He would not lead (perhaps too old fashioned for some). He would not take the initiative. Our relationship, children, family relationships, friendships, practical things - he would just check out. Even when I couldn't manage and wanted him to step in, he just stepped back. But I couldn't complain because he loved me was my thinking. I didn't look up to him. It made me feel as though I had to manage everything. From him it was "As long as you're happy because I'm happy when you're happy. Why can't you be happy?". This continued in a different vein because he wouldn't do anything for himself (apart from work). It became a closed in life looking at him, looking at me, looking at him etc etc.

There were other behaviors that were immature that I didn't like. However, I didn't say very much, just stuffed my feelings, stopped telling the truth of what would irritate me. I realized that I liked him as a friend but not my lover or my hero.
We had 20+ years doing this....!

Telling him this for the first time has been horrible saying it out loud and horrible for him to hear. He has told me a few truths about myself, my lying about how I felt, lying about my affair, rehashing of the details of the affair and that I have destroyed him. I'm not the person he thought I was. Angry and in my face (D-day was nothing like this). It's true, it's all true, I did it.

So I suppose we built up resentments etc inside of us and glossed over them. So immature, so dumb and so scared of what?

He is not in a good place right now. He is reading No more Mr Nice Guy and he realizes that he hasn't even shown up for himself in his life. He's probably wasted love and energy on me. So, he is rather angry right now.

He says, despite everything he has a little hope but doesn't want me to lie about that either and to leave if I don't want the relationship. I said I'm just out of hope. We're splitting up one minute and he's hugging me tightly in bed the next.

I hear you JD, I hear you.

It does help to talk to someone about FOO issues but the trick is recognizing those unhealthy behaviors in ourselves and breaking the patterns. Some of them I've managed to see when they are happening and others I continually sabotage myself with. Maybe one day.

I want a successful marriage but I don't know if it's too late and whether, after 20 years, we can make it work. We'll see.

This is a successful marriage

Yup thats what it looks like. No more elephants under the carpet. It is a lot of work to get them critters outa the house but a least NOW you are BOTH looking at the elephant.

Great to hear you are going through the emotions. Great to hear he is going through the emotions. Don't give up hope, you cannot correct 20 years of dysfunction in 6 months.

This is still progress. I know you don't see it as that but it is. Finally you are both being real. Being honest. You have been driven to the bottom. No use hiding any more. There is nothing left worth hiding.

Go back and read JLs posts to you about why he wanted you to be happy. It still makes sense. You are now going through the process. It is unfortunate that you say you are not a practicing Christian, as there are a number of very helpful things we Christians have available to help us get through crisis times like this.

Crisis time is a great motivator. Without crisis we remain stuck "coping" or "putting up with". Crisis is the place of change. Great news hunh?

Is it fun? Heavens no it is painful
Is it worthwhile? Yes

This is not just about you. You have a responsibility you signed on for, and that is your children. OK kids, today we are going to learn life is not perfect. Mommy and Daddy have had our struggles. But this is how we (you) work through difficulties. Life will always present difficulties and challenges. This is how our character is developed.

So time has passed but your new name still fits does it not? Nowisthemoment. This is where you have the opportunity to learn how to love. Agape love is to "choose to do the highest good for someone else without ANY EXPECTED return". God knows how selfish we are by our nature. That is why He continually teaches us about sacrifice. We live in North America where the "ME FIRST" Generation has been in charge for a number of years. Unbridled selfishness abounds. Oh I have a right to be happy all the time. Yet we have no clue how to attain happiness. We think that being able to pursue our own selfish desires at the expense of others will bring us happiness. This is absolute folly as you well know. Satisfaction and maturity comes from working through not running away. Take heart, your husband is demonstrating he is willing to work through. That is a gift. And he is finally standing up and not letting you bully him with your moods. Hooray for him.

For your own education, there is a historical book you might be interested in. It is Ecclesiastes, written by Solomon. The richest man the world has ever known. He had everything you could imagine. He majored in PARTY, sex, power, wine, possessions. Nothing he was able to attain, or obtain brought him satisfaction. He went through a major depressive episode. You could have been his ghost writer when you showed up here. What was it now "When if ever" basically "who cares , I give up". Solomon had an expression, Vanity of Vanities. Similar to what you expressed. You may find it worth reading. It is in the Old Testament.


It is only too late if you want to quit. On the road of life you can always do a U-Turn. In Christian terms we call it repentance. You turn around and walk away from going the wrong way. On the way back you work hard at repairing the damage caused by reckless driving. But this time you have an advantage, your older and smarter.

There is hope Nowisthemoment. It is not easy but it is worthwhile. Remember to tell your kids how much you love them every day. Reassure them, that Mom and Dad are working really hard TOGETHER right now and your not giving up or running away. Do not fall prey to what your FOO has set you up for. The cycle can be broken. And if you think for one minute that I am going to tell you its OK to quit, then I will have to apologize in advance, cause winners never quit. And you are winning.

God Bless you and your family